And what about the adhesive or thinset, that’s going to raise the tile more then it wouldn’t be flush isn’t better to use 1/4” hardibaker board? Instead of 1/2”?
you don't use grout when budding it up against wood because the wood expands and contracts it'll crack the grout out eventually use sanded sealer or sanded caulk .
@1234roadking1 Yes, typically you'll have a 3/4" sub-floor along with another 3/4" hardwood or a 1/2" plywood covered with linoleum on top. By removing the top layer, you'll end up with just the bottom 3/4" sub-floor. Clean this REAL good and glue and screw your backer-board here. Use thin set for the glue and make sure that the backer doesn't move. That's the key.
Nice explaining video Michael. Anyone concerned with wood floor expansion must remember wood floor cannot extend in length so if you are meeting the wood floor butt ends with tile you'll have no issues and If you are coming to the wood from its lateral run or sides , unless you are using unstable = not kiln dried wood floor, you will have no problem. Make sure that your supply of wood flooring has climatized in the house area where it is been installed. For those who are still not secure with the above , you can get an expandable non hardening rubber type gap filler . I haven't used it in my 30 years of floor work but it is available in different colours. Stable subfloor screwed down properly . Cement board proper thickness for the tile and cement as Michael explained nicely. Thanks
Thanks for the helpful tips. Seems some folks are really worried about expansion and contraction. Not sure where they're getting so much information on this. I agree with you, it's most likely due to running along the length rather than the end, and due to improper acclimation. Thanks again.
This 11 year old video you'll probably never see this comment, but how do you get it to be flush like you showed, when you have to have two layers of thinset in there as well? Just super thin layers? I literally am doing something similar to this today so any help would be greatly appreciated! My "subfloor" is cement in this condo. I have like 3/4" to work with. My tile is 1/4" and I have 1/4" cement board.
When you add the mastic, won't that raise the tile just a bit? I'm getting ready to replace the tile in front of a (non-working) fireplace and I want to make sure it's flush. The tile that I've pulled up is considerably thicker than the new tile.
I'm installing tile in a 35-year-old bathroom, but I'm also adding a radiant heat mat. I currently have a 5/8" subfloor, which I've been told needs to be replaced with new 5/8" plywood at a minimum (3/4" is a preferred minimum by pros I've consulted) if I want to tile over it without installing additional plywood. I planned on using Ditra membrane to reduce the substrate height. Any thoughts? I absolutely hate transition strips.
Thanks for the tips but we'll have to agree to disagree, Been doing it this way for twenty years and never had an issue, We can both agree that the real issue is poor quality of materials, Wood that is stable doesn't expand or contract nearly enough to cause a problem. The old time furniture guys will tell you that, What we have today is very poor laminates, etc, and other cheap products going into big houses. Can't tell you how many calls I get to fix stuff built in recent years.
hoopfan, I've been called to task on this quite a number of times so I'll only tell you what has always worked for me (can't question results). An old-timer told me that all you need is 1/2 inch plywood provided you use a good quality backer board on top. It must be cemented down and then screwed so that it won't move. I also only use this for small areas. That height plus the tile will bring you flush with most hardwood floor installations. 5/8 is not enough without backerboard.
When you say only for small areas, that means you wouldn't do a whole kitchen this way but maybe just a small landing area? A kitchen would need the full 1 1/4" subfloor for preventing deflection over a larger area?
@@iamharjap you'd want to err on the thicker side. The bigger the space, the less corners can be cut in terms of adhering to the subfloor "thickness guidelines". Also, the higher traffic the space will be, the more you'll want to stick to the full code recommendations. Lumber, especially plywood is so expensive right now...one thing to maybe consider is to add vertical supports under joists in your crawlspace....prevention of deflection is what is important, no matter how it's accomplished...firming up the flooring from underneath is more work, but it may allow for thinner/less layers of plywood in some applications. Since plywood just over tripled in cost last year, that can be something to really consider.
Hello, I don't use an expansion gap. Never have. I just use a high quality grout. However, I won't recommend this (wink) as most floor manufacturers won't warranty their floors without use of their other products. But if it were me, I'd most likely use a strip of bamboo turned perpendicular. Others won't agree here, but that's what I'd do. You might want to look into what commercial expansion joints are available for your application.
Milagros, Congratulations on the new house. The tile vs. wood decision can go both ways. We have hardwood and love it. But it's the real 3/4" oak stuff, not laminate. Some say tile is too hard for a kitchen, and can be slippery. I wouldn't base my decision on that. Bottom line is what do you like. They both are easy to maintain and both last a long time. Go with your gut and you won't regret it. Listen to someone else, and you probably will regret it. Best of luck.
What's not to love, hardwood is warmer and everything you drop isn't going to shatter. As for durability, Bona finishes may cost a lot, but they are incredibly durable.
I bought a house which came with tile and wood floor mix and they did exactly what you say you don't like to do in this video. So I now have the living room with hard wood floor and the kitchen and dining are with tiles which just looks awful in my opinion. Since the tile is about I would say 1/2 an inch higher than the rest of the flooring, I'd like to know if you have any suggestions on how to take the tiles off and match it with hard wood floors so it all looks even.. thank you! I appreciate your videos
I don't think that a mere 1/2" cement backer over 1/2" subfloor (which you said is next to the joists) is substantial enough. That would probably not meet minimum deflection standards. It might be OK for a closet, but not for high traffic. Morover, you said nothing about the additional 1/4" of thinset.
Yes sir, I have found the same thing unless it's a small area. Have you ever tried using a small strip of wood as the filler? The tile has to be really squared up nice, of course, but a small strip of wood run perpendicular works good in some applications.
hi, I know this is an old video, but I'm a new homeowner and in my case I need to make the peel of vinyl tile to flush together with the hardwood floor I'm installing in dinning room, . can you please help me with any ideas I'm confuse and I'm planning to do this project the first week of june
hey michael im in soutern cal and want to do the bulk of my house in hardwood floor and tile ive already had some engineered hardwood put in one room and want to continue it eventually should i finish all the wood floor first where i want it and then do the tile after?
so your saying that i pull up the sub floor and replace it with the cement board? im doing a bathroom that has a fairly new bathtub fitter am i going to have to pull that out too to make everything flush?
So should I worry aboit expansion and contraction between wood and tile? The instructions says to leave 3/4 from walls? Is it safe to glue down engineered hardwwod flush? Thanks
Follow the manufacturers recommendation on the engineered flooring. Typically, engineered flooring is not glued down. Expansion occurs along the edge grain not the end grain. I have never had a problem along the end grain of hardwood flooring, and on short runs along the edge grain.
Hi Michael; Im buying a new house. builder recommends hardwood floor in kitchen. I think tile will be better to maintain. Can you give me advise based on your experince?
great video but what about the other way around...i.e. installing hardwood, butting up against tile, and the hardwood is ending up higher...any ideas i am struggling with this
@jusaldor Hi, just want to make sure we're on same page. You won't need 2 layers of plywood. Only 1. The 1/2 inch backer-board will go directly on top of the 1 layer of plywood. Just make sure that the 3/4 is screwed in good and the backer-board has a coat of adhesive underneath. I've had mine like that for three years. No issues at all.
@michaelbronco Thanks. As long as I have this video and your comments I'll try to explain it tomorrow. Once he pulls up the existing subfloor we'll have a better sense of how much space there is to lay down a 3/4 subfloor and the 1/2 inch backer and tile on that. I am betting he thinks there is only 1 3/4 inch layer and not 2 but if you're right, then it sounds like it will work. Thank you!
What about the expansion gap for the hardwood floor? I'm installing 5/8 bamboo HWF in my house now, and wanted to have a tile entrance pad by the front door. The hardwood floor requires a 3/4 expansion gap.
Excellent video as I do this myself however you should never grout between hardwood and tile as they both expand and contract with temperature/moisture changes. I cant tell you how many houses I have been in to see this joint all cracked because someone was too lazy to suggest the proper materials. Just take your time and order or source a colored caulk that matched the grout. All grout suppliers make it. I myself like to put a piece of nickle Schluter around the tile separating from the wood.
hi Michael, can you tell me what do you do with transition itself? i don't like t-molding. they say cork can be used also. what else you can do to seal the joint? thank you!
@michaelbronco One guy recommended this stack: 3/4"hardwood plywood (adds 1/8" to current height), radiant heat and SLC (adds 1/4"), then thinset and tile (adds about 3/8"). That gives me the 3/4" height I'm after.
@michaelbronco The bathroom is only 5x9, 30 sq ft of which will have tile. I thought about sistering joists the three joists (maybe double sisters) that run under the bathroom. I also read about Advantech tongue-and-groove, which is supposedly a strong product for subfloors. I REALLY want to avoid a height difference between floors.
Between the two floors there should be metal box trim that has a binding leg that goes under tile ,tight to the tile edge THEN your hardwood floor butts up against the trim , never grout that area , grout will fall out in no time
I hear you on the height difference. That's why I posted the video. Don't know much about the product you mention so can't advise here, and not sure if the joists will make a difference. Problem is movement in between joists. Floor really needs to be stiff.
@michaelbronco Thanks. I think he believes that when the existing plywood comes up there will only be 1 layer. I'm hoping he'll actually find 1.5 inches to work with, and can lay down the 3/4 plywood, 1/2 inch backer and the 1/4 inch tile for a perfectly flush set up. My only concern may be that my home's hardwood is laid right onto the main floor structure with no plywood. likely? So bathroom may be 1 layer. if so, I'm going to lay hardwood in the b room despite warnings...
@Joshawanao Nope...been three years. Foyer, kitchen and both baths. Nice and flush with no cracks. An old-timer showed me how to do it this way and his lasted as long as the tile itself.
@jusaldor Okay, so you'll only need 1 layer of 3/4 sub-floor to work with. You don't need 2. When you take up the top layer they're should be 1 layer of 3/4 sub-floor left. That's all you need. Just put the backer-board on top of that. But use the good stuff. And be sure to lay the backer on a coat of adhesive.
Ok but what if you have whole bathroom to tile, and the only point where it will not be flush is one door. Should I rip up the entire floor in the bathroom so that the transition under the door is smooth?
It may appear that way with the video angle, but I can assure you it is flush after mortar application. I'm staring at it as I write this and it is as flush as possible. I imagine a real thick tile would provide a challenge here. Wouldn't be possibe with thick stone or slate.
That's going to make it tough. The heat tube will take the place of the cement board to the only subfloor will be whateve us underneath the heat tube. Somehow youll need to make that stiff enough to work.
If you insist on doing it that way you should butt the tile to the wood with no joint or use a metal capping strip. Wood expands/contracts much more then tile which is what causes the grout to crack
@jusaldor Okay, so here goes. Typically, you'll have a 3/4 sub-floor (that's what you see in the video on the bottom layer) For linoleum floor, two layers of plywood are typically used. So, you'll end up with a total of 1.5 inches of flooring. If you take off the top layer of plywood and replace it with the backer board (then tile) you'll end up with the same height. Just put a thin layer of tile adhesive under the b-board then screw it good. So, it's backer board on top of 3/4 sub-floor.
So I suggested taking out the subfloor to my contracter who said he needed a hard surface like that to put the backerboard onto. so he needed the subfloor there for that. You talk about not using the sub, and laying the backerboard then onto the surface using some concrete and screwing it on stable, that means you don't need the subfloor. can you explain the concrete step better (so I can do that tomorrow). glad it also does not make sense to someone why you can't have the tile and wood flush.
I am installing laminate on concrete with plywood subfloor however with added plywood now I have raised the height of laminate and tile in kitchen sits low - what can I do
Michael Bronco yes because i don't want to level the concrete and figured subfloor plywood be lot easier to level. #2 i Like the option of installing hardwood on plywood if i decide to do so later on.
With a circular saw that has a construction blade and set to the right depth. Finnish cuts with vibration saw. You can tack a board down as a strait edge or use a trac saw
I really would not be comfortable putting backer board over joists, without any plywood under it. That doesn't seem wise at all. I don't think backer board is meant to support all that weight plus people walking on it.
Um...are you saying to leave the subfloor down, and put the backerboard on the subfloor? I'm totally confused now. I thought in the video you said to take up the subfloor.
Thomas F Thomas, No where in the video is it suggested that the backer-board be placed directly onto the joists. You need to watch it again. There are always two (2) layers of subfloor, or should be. If not, then I don't know how the house passed code.
Thomas F His terminology is a little confusing, but the idea is correct. I'll try and clear it up. Your floors have *three* layers. The "base-floor" (lays on the joists), the "sub-floor" (lays on the base-floor), and the "top-floor" (the thing you walk on). When installing a tile floor where linoleum once-was, simply removing the old top-floor (the linoleum), laying down even 1/4-inch backerboard, then tile atop that, you now have *four* layers of flooring, with the fourth being the backer between the subfloor and the top-floor tile. This is where the extra rise comes from. You added 1/4 backer, the mortar layer, and the tile, all replacing what was only a thin linoleum. Thus the need to a drop-transition to the existing floor at the seams. (and I concur with Michael's feeling about it; it sucks). When a *real* hardwood floor is installed (not the fake thin locks; we're talking 1/2 or 3/4 solids) the installer generally removes the old top floor (obviously) *and* the 1/2 or 3/4 subfloor, lays down a moisture barrier if it is a ground-level project, then installs the hardwood. To properly meet up with that floor when installing an adjoining tile floor. You will have two options if you want a clean level transition depending on the thickness of the subfloor where the tile will be going:. - 1/2 subfloor: If the subfloor were 1/2 particle or plywood, remove it (but *not the base floor atop the joists*). If on a ground floor make sure your moisture barrier is good (may need to replace or patch it). Then cut, fit, and lay down a 1/4 backer-board and screw it into position (it will take quite a number of screws). The tile will go atop this after leveling and prepping with thin-set, of which there are *many* videos on YT. - 3/4 subfloor: If the subfloor were 3/4 particle or plywood, remove it, (and again, *not the base floor atop the joists*). As above, check and repair or replace the moisture barrier if on a ground floor. Then cut, fit, and lay down 1/2 inch backer board (which is actually 3/8-inch typically; gotta love building measurements). The video does this and demonstrates nicely the end result. I didn't cover a lot of things (how to make sure your floors are smooth, level and filled as needed, whether to apply thinset to the backer or not, etc). But the point i wanted to stress was the backer replaces the subfloor; *not the base-floor atop the joists*). Which thickness of backer you use depends on the thickness of subfloor removed. Hope it helps, and sorry for any typos. oh and nice vid Michael!!
Craig N Thanks for pointing out that there are many different layers of flooring, and backer board can be 1/4" or 1/2". This surely helps me to understand this.
Guys have been saying that for years. Hasn't happened yet. Did one just like this over five years ago and it's still solid. Besides, the alternative looks horrible.
@Cheekychic03 Hey, yeah, I know about all those requirements. In some cases, they are good, but not usually. I learned from some real old-timers and there stuff still stands without defects or need for repair. Unless wood is really green it won't expand / contract that much. The application you see in the video hadn't budged and we live in nearly 100% humidity for much of the year. Bottom line - use good quality flooring. Real wood and be sure it is acclimated to your environment.
Sub floor is 3/4", We live in South Carolina, very unstable with lots of humidity in the summer, much drier in the winter, No trouble at all with this method, Been five years and counting, But I do agree about the high traffic. I cant' stand floors with two different heights. Looks hideous and should be avoided by any means necessary,
If you're not seeing cracked grout, that's a function of where you live, not the quality of the materials. If you are in a climate with fairly stable humidity the wood doesn't expand and contract nearly as much. If you are in a climate where the humidity varies, you will run into problems. It's also important to consider the type of wood. For example, black walnut is 26% more stable than red oak.
Yup, I did a total renovation to the inside. Installed hardwood in the kitchen but most of it is original to the house. I made much of the furniture as well. All new electric and a good bit of plumbing also. Check out the Mountain Man Workshop and Gallery on Facebook to see more of the stuff I make, includiing the furniture.
Yeah, you're gonna have a little trouble if the tile is already there because the hardwood is 3/4 and the tile is much thinner. Typically, you'd build up the sub floor with the backer board under the tile which would make the two surfaces match up nicely. Do you know what it under the tile?
Doesn't get much more unstable than South Carolina, Extreme humidity in the summer and much drier in the winter, There is more than one way to do things, Bottom line: if it works, it works, Having two different floor heights it very unattractive and ruins a room. I'll do whatever it takes to make it work level.
Nice video but your tile is flush before you use your thin-set motor. If you want to keep it flush, like it was when you did a dry fit, you will not have enough motor to hold the title in place.
@Cheekychic03 Hey, yeah, I know about all those requirements. In some cases, they are good, but not usually. I learned from some real old-timers and there stuff still stands without defects or need for repair. Unless wood is really green it won't expand / contract that much. The application you see in the video hadn't budged and we live in nearly 100% humidity for much of the year. Bottom line - use good quality flooring. Real wood and be sure it is acclimated to your environment.
And what about the adhesive or thinset, that’s going to raise the tile more then it wouldn’t be flush isn’t better to use 1/4” hardibaker board? Instead of 1/2”?
you don't use grout when budding it up against wood because the wood expands and contracts it'll crack the grout out eventually use sanded sealer or sanded caulk .
@1234roadking1 Yes, typically you'll have a 3/4" sub-floor along with another 3/4" hardwood or a 1/2" plywood covered with linoleum on top. By removing the top layer, you'll end up with just the bottom 3/4" sub-floor. Clean this REAL good and glue and screw your backer-board here. Use thin set for the glue and make sure that the backer doesn't move. That's the key.
Nice explaining video Michael. Anyone concerned with wood floor expansion must remember wood floor cannot extend in length so if you are meeting the wood floor butt ends with tile you'll have no issues and If you are coming to the wood from its lateral run or sides , unless you are using unstable = not kiln dried wood floor, you will have no problem. Make sure that your supply of wood flooring has climatized in the house area where it is been installed. For those who are still not secure with the above , you can get an expandable non hardening rubber type gap filler . I haven't used it in my 30 years of floor work but it is available in different colours. Stable subfloor screwed down properly . Cement board proper thickness for the tile and cement as Michael explained nicely. Thanks
Thanks for the helpful tips. Seems some folks are really worried about expansion and contraction. Not sure where they're getting so much information on this. I agree with you, it's most likely due to running along the length rather than the end, and due to improper acclimation. Thanks again.
This 11 year old video you'll probably never see this comment, but how do you get it to be flush like you showed, when you have to have two layers of thinset in there as well? Just super thin layers? I literally am doing something similar to this today so any help would be greatly appreciated! My "subfloor" is cement in this condo. I have like 3/4" to work with. My tile is 1/4" and I have 1/4" cement board.
When you add the mastic, won't that raise the tile just a bit? I'm getting ready to replace the tile in front of a (non-working) fireplace and I want to make sure it's flush. The tile that I've pulled up is considerably thicker than the new tile.
I'm installing tile in a 35-year-old bathroom, but I'm also adding a radiant heat mat. I currently have a 5/8" subfloor, which I've been told needs to be replaced with new 5/8" plywood at a minimum (3/4" is a preferred minimum by pros I've consulted) if I want to tile over it without installing additional plywood. I planned on using Ditra membrane to reduce the substrate height. Any thoughts? I absolutely hate transition strips.
Thanks for the tips but we'll have to agree to disagree, Been doing it this way for twenty years and never had an issue, We can both agree that the real issue is poor quality of materials, Wood that is stable doesn't expand or contract nearly enough to cause a problem. The old time furniture guys will tell you that, What we have today is very poor laminates, etc, and other cheap products going into big houses. Can't tell you how many calls I get to fix stuff built in recent years.
hoopfan, I've been called to task on this quite a number of times so I'll only tell you what has always worked for me (can't question results). An old-timer told me that all you need is 1/2 inch plywood provided you use a good quality backer board on top. It must be cemented down and then screwed so that it won't move. I also only use this for small areas. That height plus the tile will bring you flush with most hardwood floor installations. 5/8 is not enough without backerboard.
When you say only for small areas, that means you wouldn't do a whole kitchen this way but maybe just a small landing area? A kitchen would need the full 1 1/4" subfloor for preventing deflection over a larger area?
@@iamharjap you'd want to err on the thicker side. The bigger the space, the less corners can be cut in terms of adhering to the subfloor "thickness guidelines". Also, the higher traffic the space will be, the more you'll want to stick to the full code recommendations. Lumber, especially plywood is so expensive right now...one thing to maybe consider is to add vertical supports under joists in your crawlspace....prevention of deflection is what is important, no matter how it's accomplished...firming up the flooring from underneath is more work, but it may allow for thinner/less layers of plywood in some applications. Since plywood just over tripled in cost last year, that can be something to really consider.
Hello, I don't use an expansion gap. Never have. I just use a high quality grout. However, I won't recommend this (wink) as most floor manufacturers won't warranty their floors without use of their other products. But if it were me, I'd most likely use a strip of bamboo turned perpendicular. Others won't agree here, but that's what I'd do. You might want to look into what commercial expansion joints are available for your application.
Milagros, Congratulations on the new house. The tile vs. wood decision can go both ways. We have hardwood and love it. But it's the real 3/4" oak stuff, not laminate. Some say tile is too hard for a kitchen, and can be slippery. I wouldn't base my decision on that. Bottom line is what do you like. They both are easy to maintain and both last a long time. Go with your gut and you won't regret it. Listen to someone else, and you probably will regret it. Best of luck.
What's not to love, hardwood is warmer and everything you drop isn't going to shatter. As for durability, Bona finishes may cost a lot, but they are incredibly durable.
I bought a house which came with tile and wood floor mix and they did exactly what you say you don't like to do in this video. So I now have the living room with hard wood floor and the kitchen and dining are with tiles which just looks awful in my opinion. Since the tile is about I would say 1/2 an inch higher than the rest of the flooring, I'd like to know if you have any suggestions on how to take the tiles off and match it with hard wood floors so it all looks even.. thank you! I appreciate your videos
I don't think that a mere 1/2" cement backer over 1/2" subfloor (which you said is next to the joists) is substantial enough. That would probably not meet minimum deflection standards. It might be OK for a closet, but not for high traffic. Morover, you said nothing about the additional 1/4" of thinset.
I was afraid I had to do this step. Thank you for confirming this! Peace be with you!
Yes sir, I have found the same thing unless it's a small area. Have you ever tried using a small strip of wood as the filler? The tile has to be really squared up nice, of course, but a small strip of wood run perpendicular works good in some applications.
hi, I know this is an old video, but I'm a new homeowner and in my case I need to make the peel of vinyl tile to flush together with the hardwood floor I'm installing in dinning room, . can you please help me with any ideas I'm confuse and I'm planning to do this project the first week of june
hey michael im in soutern cal and want to do the bulk of my house in hardwood floor and tile ive already had some engineered hardwood put in one room and want to continue it eventually should i finish all the wood floor first where i want it and then do the tile after?
Isn't there supposed to be a 1/4 inch gap between the laminate floor and tile to leave room for expansion?
so your saying that i pull up the sub floor and replace it with the cement board? im doing a bathroom that has a fairly new bathtub fitter am i going to have to pull that out too to make everything flush?
So should I worry aboit expansion and contraction between wood and tile? The instructions says to leave 3/4 from walls? Is it safe to glue down engineered hardwwod flush?
Thanks
Follow the manufacturers recommendation on the engineered flooring. Typically, engineered flooring is not glued down. Expansion occurs along the edge grain not the end grain. I have never had a problem along the end grain of hardwood flooring, and on short runs along the edge grain.
Hi Michael; Im buying a new house. builder recommends hardwood floor in kitchen. I think tile will be better to maintain. Can you give me advise based on your experince?
great video but what about the other way around...i.e. installing hardwood, butting up against tile, and the hardwood is ending up higher...any ideas i am struggling with this
Can you post a video of the actual installation of the tile against the hardwood ?
@jusaldor Hi, just want to make sure we're on same page. You won't need 2 layers of plywood. Only 1. The 1/2 inch backer-board will go directly on top of the 1 layer of plywood. Just make sure that the 3/4 is screwed in good and the backer-board has a coat of adhesive underneath. I've had mine like that for three years. No issues at all.
@redsbleeding2003 The other question I have is what's under the hardwood? Is it one or two sheets of underlayment?
@michaelbronco Thanks. As long as I have this video and your comments I'll try to explain it tomorrow. Once he pulls up the existing subfloor we'll have a better sense of how much space there is to lay down a 3/4 subfloor and the 1/2 inch backer and tile on that. I am betting he thinks there is only 1 3/4 inch layer and not 2 but if you're right, then it sounds like it will work. Thank you!
Michael did you make most of the stuff in your house? Ive always wanted to buy a house with hard wood flooring
What about the expansion gap for the hardwood floor? I'm installing 5/8 bamboo HWF in my house now, and wanted to have a tile entrance pad by the front door. The hardwood floor requires a 3/4 expansion gap.
Are you using caulk or grout against the wood?
Excellent video as I do this myself however you should never grout between hardwood and tile as they both expand and contract with temperature/moisture changes. I cant tell you how many houses I have been in to see this joint all cracked because someone was too lazy to suggest the proper materials. Just take your time and order or source a colored caulk that matched the grout. All grout suppliers make it. I myself like to put a piece of nickle Schluter around the tile separating from the wood.
My pleasure. Glad you found the tip useful.
hi Michael,
can you tell me what do you do with transition itself? i don't like t-molding. they say cork can be used also. what else you can do to seal the joint? thank you!
Is it safe to have no subfloor and just cement backer board on joists?
No, don't do that. Backer board isn't nearly strong enough.
@michaelbronco One guy recommended this stack: 3/4"hardwood plywood (adds 1/8" to current height), radiant heat and SLC (adds 1/4"), then thinset and tile (adds about 3/8"). That gives me the 3/4" height I'm after.
@michaelbronco The bathroom is only 5x9, 30 sq ft of which will have tile. I thought about sistering joists the three joists (maybe double sisters) that run under the bathroom. I also read about Advantech tongue-and-groove, which is supposedly a strong product for subfloors. I REALLY want to avoid a height difference between floors.
The best job ever
Between the two floors there should be metal box trim that has a binding leg that goes under tile ,tight to the tile edge THEN your hardwood floor butts up against the trim , never grout that area , grout will fall out in no time
I hear you on the height difference. That's why I posted the video. Don't know much about the product you mention so can't advise here, and not sure if the joists will make a difference. Problem is movement in between joists. Floor really needs to be stiff.
@michaelbronco Thanks. I think he believes that when the existing plywood comes up there will only be 1 layer. I'm hoping he'll actually find 1.5 inches to work with, and can lay down the 3/4 plywood, 1/2 inch backer and the 1/4 inch tile for a perfectly flush set up. My only concern may be that my home's hardwood is laid right onto the main floor structure with no plywood. likely? So bathroom may be 1 layer. if so, I'm going to lay hardwood in the b room despite warnings...
i am laying hardwood between 4 squares of tile -- do i need to grout the tile and hardwood or just leave it flush
@Joshawanao Nope...been three years. Foyer, kitchen and both baths. Nice and flush with no cracks. An old-timer showed me how to do it this way and his lasted as long as the tile itself.
@jusaldor Okay, so you'll only need 1 layer of 3/4 sub-floor to work with. You don't need 2. When you take up the top layer they're should be 1 layer of 3/4 sub-floor left. That's all you need. Just put the backer-board on top of that. But use the good stuff. And be sure to lay the backer on a coat of adhesive.
Ok but what if you have whole bathroom to tile, and the only point where it will not be flush is one door. Should I rip up the entire floor in the bathroom so that the transition under the door is smooth?
It may appear that way with the video angle, but I can assure you it is flush after mortar application. I'm staring at it as I write this and it is as flush as possible. I imagine a real thick tile would provide a challenge here. Wouldn't be possibe with thick stone or slate.
That's going to make it tough. The heat tube will take the place of the cement board to the only subfloor will be whateve us underneath the heat tube. Somehow youll need to make that stiff enough to work.
@michaelbronco Cool! that can normally be a problem area. grout = crack, caulk = dirt, transition strip = bump. Good job!
If you insist on doing it that way you should butt the tile to the wood with no joint or use a metal capping strip. Wood expands/contracts much more then tile which is what causes the grout to crack
@jusaldor Okay, so here goes. Typically, you'll have a 3/4 sub-floor (that's what you see in the video on the bottom layer) For linoleum floor, two layers of plywood are typically used. So, you'll end up with a total of 1.5 inches of flooring. If you take off the top layer of plywood and replace it with the backer board (then tile) you'll end up with the same height. Just put a thin layer of tile adhesive under the b-board then screw it good. So, it's backer board on top of 3/4 sub-floor.
Can you show how cut the hardwood floors
So I suggested taking out the subfloor to my contracter who said he needed a hard surface like that to put the backerboard onto. so he needed the subfloor there for that. You talk about not using the sub, and laying the backerboard then onto the surface using some concrete and screwing it on stable, that means you don't need the subfloor. can you explain the concrete step better (so I can do that tomorrow). glad it also does not make sense to someone why you can't have the tile and wood flush.
I am installing laminate on concrete with plywood subfloor however with added plywood now I have raised the height of laminate and tile in kitchen sits low - what can I do
So, just to be clear, You're installing plywood over concrete? Then adding the laminate on top of that?
Michael Bronco yes because i don't want to level the concrete and figured subfloor plywood be lot easier to level. #2 i Like the option of installing hardwood on plywood if i decide to do so later on.
Karamjit Singh Wood is not allowed to touch cement or concrete.
Level the floor with self leveling cement in the tile section of HD or Loads
Anyone any ideas on transitioning it when the semi solid floor is higher than the tile on a concrete floor
My question is how do you cut out the hardwood in order to lay flush tile In the entry
With a circular saw that has a construction blade and set to the right depth.
Finnish cuts with vibration saw.
You can tack a board down as a strait edge or use a trac saw
I really would not be comfortable putting backer board over joists, without any plywood under it. That doesn't seem wise at all. I don't think backer board is meant to support all that weight plus people walking on it.
Um...are you saying to leave the subfloor down, and put the backerboard on the subfloor? I'm totally confused now. I thought in the video you said to take up the subfloor.
Thomas F
Thomas,
No where in the video is it suggested that the backer-board be placed directly onto the joists. You need to watch it again. There are always two (2) layers of subfloor, or should be. If not, then I don't know how the house passed code.
Thomas F His terminology is a little confusing, but the idea is correct. I'll try and clear it up. Your floors have *three* layers. The "base-floor" (lays on the joists), the "sub-floor" (lays on the base-floor), and the "top-floor" (the thing you walk on).
When installing a tile floor where linoleum once-was, simply removing the old top-floor (the linoleum), laying down even 1/4-inch backerboard, then tile atop that, you now have *four* layers of flooring, with the fourth being the backer between the subfloor and the top-floor tile. This is where the extra rise comes from. You added 1/4 backer, the mortar layer, and the tile, all replacing what was only a thin linoleum. Thus the need to a drop-transition to the existing floor at the seams. (and I concur with Michael's feeling about it; it sucks).
When a *real* hardwood floor is installed (not the fake thin locks; we're talking 1/2 or 3/4 solids) the installer generally removes the old top floor (obviously) *and* the 1/2 or 3/4 subfloor, lays down a moisture barrier if it is a ground-level project, then installs the hardwood.
To properly meet up with that floor when installing an adjoining tile floor. You will have two options if you want a clean level transition depending on the thickness of the subfloor where the tile will be going:.
- 1/2 subfloor: If the subfloor were 1/2 particle or plywood, remove it (but *not the base floor atop the joists*). If on a ground floor make sure your moisture barrier is good (may need to replace or patch it). Then cut, fit, and lay down a 1/4 backer-board and screw it into position (it will take quite a number of screws). The tile will go atop this after leveling and prepping with thin-set, of which there are *many* videos on YT.
- 3/4 subfloor: If the subfloor were 3/4 particle or plywood, remove it, (and again, *not the base floor atop the joists*). As above, check and repair or replace the moisture barrier if on a ground floor. Then cut, fit, and lay down 1/2 inch backer board (which is actually 3/8-inch typically; gotta love building measurements). The video does this and demonstrates nicely the end result.
I didn't cover a lot of things (how to make sure your floors are smooth, level and filled as needed, whether to apply thinset to the backer or not, etc). But the point i wanted to stress was the backer replaces the subfloor; *not the base-floor atop the joists*). Which thickness of backer you use depends on the thickness of subfloor removed.
Hope it helps, and sorry for any typos. oh and nice vid Michael!!
Craig N
Thanks for taking the time to help out. I'm sure this will help some folks.
Craig N Thanks for pointing out that there are many different layers of flooring, and backer board can be 1/4" or 1/2". This surely helps me to understand this.
Guys have been saying that for years. Hasn't happened yet. Did one just like this over five years ago and it's still solid. Besides, the alternative looks horrible.
@Cheekychic03 Hey, yeah, I know about all those requirements. In some cases, they are good, but not usually. I learned from some real old-timers and there stuff still stands without defects or need for repair. Unless wood is really green it won't expand / contract that much. The application you see in the video hadn't budged and we live in nearly 100% humidity for much of the year. Bottom line - use good quality flooring. Real wood and be sure it is acclimated to your environment.
Very well done😊
Nice job!! Thanks 🙏🏽!!
Great job!!
Sub floor is 3/4", We live in South Carolina, very unstable with lots of humidity in the summer, much drier in the winter, No trouble at all with this method, Been five years and counting, But I do agree about the high traffic. I cant' stand floors with two different heights. Looks hideous and should be avoided by any means necessary,
If you're not seeing cracked grout, that's a function of where you live, not the quality of the materials. If you are in a climate with fairly stable humidity the wood doesn't expand and contract nearly as much. If you are in a climate where the humidity varies, you will run into problems. It's also important to consider the type of wood. For example, black walnut is 26% more stable than red oak.
did the grout crack at that transition yet?
1/4" mortar, 1/4" backerboard, 1/4 mortar and 1/4 tile. Smashed together = 3/4 "
Yup, I did a total renovation to the inside. Installed hardwood in the kitchen but most of it is original to the house. I made much of the furniture as well. All new electric and a good bit of plumbing also. Check out the Mountain Man Workshop and Gallery on Facebook to see more of the stuff I make, includiing the furniture.
I don't like tose tresholds either...😕 thank you for the video 😀👍
good idea to put the tile on top of the hardwood
Yeah, you're gonna have a little trouble if the tile is already there because the hardwood is 3/4 and the tile is much thinner. Typically, you'd build up the sub floor with the backer board under the tile which would make the two surfaces match up nicely. Do you know what it under the tile?
Doesn't get much more unstable than South Carolina, Extreme humidity in the summer and much drier in the winter, There is more than one way to do things, Bottom line: if it works, it works, Having two different floor heights it very unattractive and ruins a room. I'll do whatever it takes to make it work level.
Nice video but your tile is flush before you use your thin-set motor. If you want to keep it flush, like it was when you did a dry fit, you will not have enough motor to hold the title in place.
Very nice thanks for the vid
Good Information.
@michaelbronco To add: Again, I'll have radiant heat, which will add to the standard stack height.
why not just use Ditra?
no expansion for the real wood smh as the weather changes the wood floor could buckle. a T-mold should have been used
@michaelbronco Should have read "3/4" plywood". Droid phone is being too helpful.
by the way i have a concrete subfloor also thanks!
mantap 13th lalu😁
Grouting between tile and a wood floor will crack.
This is not a good idea at all. I would never do that.
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@Cheekychic03 Hey, yeah, I know about all those requirements. In some cases, they are good, but not usually. I learned from some real old-timers and there stuff still stands without defects or need for repair. Unless wood is really green it won't expand / contract that much. The application you see in the video hadn't budged and we live in nearly 100% humidity for much of the year. Bottom line - use good quality flooring. Real wood and be sure it is acclimated to your environment.
Nice job!! Thanks 🙏🏽!!
Check woodprix mates. I love it to my wooden projects.