Dolby Atmos For Music | What 68% Of You NEED To Know
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- Опубліковано 30 тра 2022
- Dolby Atmos is gaining serious traction in the music industry, and we've been proven wrong with the scepticism we portrayed in our last video on the subject. So, now, are 68% of you wrong too? Our minds have been changed in the short time we've been working with the format, and we love it, so hopefully this video will encourage you to give it a try, if only on headphones!
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I also wish that advanced technology would prevail for once. In the real world, however, you can be happy if people still have a stereo system. You don't want to know how many of my friends are satisfied with their mono bluetooth speaker. It hurts, but that's the way it is.
Exactly!! The “normies” will pull out their phones to listen to something and it makes me cringe 😬 Then I get self conscious and say things like “this wasn’t made to be listened back on a phone” and it just gets awkward from there
sad but true
And that's another reason why we're quite excited about Atmos - those mono bluetooth speakers are getting better all the time, even the cheap Amazon Echo sounds far better than anything on the market a few years ago, and really does give you an immersive experience that's pretty cool. But many will never care about audio quality - in the same way as I have a 65" whizzo TV on the wall at home and rarely watch it... I watch things on my phone!
@@PresentDayProduction that’s fair. Cars come equipped with 11 speakers now days too, which doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to us for stereo.
Also there are some cars that have a full atmos setup, and it most likely won’t be too much of a big deal to design a new car that has 11 speakers, into an atmos setup when the decoding becomes more prevalent
That's because they feel the music even in mono, and you only listen to music and judge if it "sounds good".
I'm using headphones and experimenting with Atmos but I use Cubase 12 and I have to say I am not convinced. I think it's one of those "experiences" that has to be done with proper speaker setup (by proper I mean - at least have the 7.1.2/4 speakers plugged in even if it is a patchwork).
Maybe my head is way off compared to the average measurements for headphones in binaural mixdown but I just don't get it. 😒
This is fascinating. I expected to be a grumpy old man stuck in the past regarding atmos, but this video is massively selling me on it.
Wow, glad to have swayed your opinion!
Give it a try, even on headphones! It's very cool, and a lot of fun
@@PresentDayProduction Yeah I need to
I think it is important to not mix up the arguments about object-based audio and the availability of portable playback devices. While improved binaural rendering, soundbars etc. are great and potentially game changing in terms of wide accessibility, they are not as reliant on receiving audio assets as separate mono objects as one may think. In fact, playing back Atmos on these devices often goes through an intermediary step, in which the mix is pre-rendered to a specific speaker set-up, which is then virtualized, either by using beamforming, or convolution with appropriate HRTFs, depending on the device in question. Optimizing these processes is the subject of ongoing research. In the days of 5.1 we simply didn’t have those options, although AV/receivers, even during that time, could fold down a 5.1 mix just fine, provided they knew what hardware they were attached to, but that really hasn’t changed much. In a way, even a single 5.1 asset might be thought of as an object, the moment you attach metadata to it, which tells the playback device what it is. Of course, the scalability of object-based mixes (and now I’m referring to mono objects with positional meta-data attached) is a valid argument, but they are still just panned mono sources. It’s important to remember that, in most realistic mixing scenarios, we are still dealing with a lot of traditional multichannel material (anything from multichannel reverbs to microphone arrays), which rely fundamentally on stereophonic principles, and are subject to the same fold-down issues as any stereo or multi channel recording. I’m bringing this up because it is so easy to be totally overwhelmed when first working with a big Atmos system, and attributing the sound experience to some kind of previously unattainable, magic spacialization invented by Dolby, which finally allows us to make natural sounding mixes, and makes us never have to worry about the target sound system ever again. This is consistent with a lot of the marketing out there, but it is a somewhat sensationalized view. If we instead take this for what it is (a surround format with an integrated, scalable Panpod), we can start thinking about more sensible mixing decisions.
Great video!! I love all the work you guys do! thank you!!
Thank you!
On my own scale, my stereo Mixing are only 6/10 (being very critical with my selft). As a bedroom producer with a room 60% acoustically treated all by myself, I consider that there is no room for me and my setup in 7.1.4 format. I aggre with you that this is "the way" and have a mastering in atmos service is something starting to show UP on different countries too. But I think is only for the "real OG's" and not for the bedroom producers. Great video, love this channel!
Heyyyyy! There you are!!!! As someone who's a part of the 51% I have to say I find Mark's faith in Atmos rather intriguing, in the sense that he has several decades worth of experience and he might be seeing (or, rather, hearing) something I'm not.
Hey Achilles!
@@PresentDayProduction ❤️❤️
Mark is soooo enthusiastic! Another good video, guys, well done
Thanks! That was extremely helpful 😊
Absolutely brilliant👍 04:00 is the highlight😅 Looking forward to your upcoming videos on Dolby Atmos. We are busy working with Steinberg Nuendo 12 for some unique Atmos material✨🥂
Im Now permanently mixing in Atmos (Binaural) at the moment whilst saving for a speaker set up. I Love it.
Great to see your excited about this guys, I have been mixing in 3D immersive for a while now and i'm liking it more all the time, I would say it's here to stay for sure and it will keep getting better as tech improves, it's going to become the norm in the near future largely because as you pointed out it's not strictly hardware based like surround is and it translates to all mediums.... really enjoyed this thanks, im looking forward to your future videos on the subject!
I started with a home theatre setup with a 4K projector for movies using Adam active studio monitors.
Then Logic added Dolby Atmos support so I bought a RME fireface USB Audio interface and a Ferrofish pulse 16.
I plug my marantz av7702mk2 pre pro balanced xlr outputs into the balanced inputs of the ferrofish, plug the Adam monitor speakers into the balanced outputs of the ferrofish and can watch movies in Atmos and create Atmos mixes in Logic with just one usb cable.
The RME fireface usb and ferrofish pulse 16 was the cheapest way of working with Logic in Dolby Atmos and has worked flawlessly.
I have 3X Adam A77X’s for the L/C/R and 8X T7V for the surrounds and heights in a 7.0.4 setup.
I even bought the Adam ceiling mounts for the higher spec S2V series speakers for the t7v and bought some T nuts to drill into the side of the speaker cabinet to ceiling mount the height speakers. The Adam T series and S series are almost identical in dimensions.
Adam audio customer service even let me know the exact location of their S2V mounting holes on their speakers to allow me to drill into the T7V’s.
Sounds epic and wasn’t much of an outlay.
I’ve ordered some ATC SCM45a’s but I might put them in a different setup (can’t afford ATC Atmos setup)
We’re off to hear the new Adam A series in an Atmos configuration this coming week, so we’ll report back!
I have to admit that I'm slightly more excited about Atmos now - but I'm also pretty concerned about how proprietary it all is currently. I've not looked into any alternative technologies (if they exist) but I'd rather stay away from such proprietary formats personally. I'm sure this will be a non issue in a few years when competition comes along, but that's the one thing putting me off currently.
I agree! The problem with object-based media is, that you basically have to decide before mixing, which format you want to distribute in. I've talked about this in a reply to another person, but one possible work-around, which we might see more in the future, is working more with open standards such as the Audio Definition Model. Actually, files with ADM metadata are used for Atmos delivery, and this is an open standard, or rather a tiny subset of an open standard. The entire specification, which also includes an open source renderer, is absolutely huge, and also includes things like Ambisonics and custom matrix encoders/decoders. At the moment, there are a number of ADM profiles in use, and converting between them is not yet fully standardized (for a lot of these conversions there is some type of automatic data reduction involved), but we will likely see some big developments in that domain, as there are certain parts of the industry (broadcasting being perhaps the biggest one), that absolutely can't do without these types of conversions, because there is no way all broadcasting companies in the world will use the same standard for content delivery.
Another beautifully explained video chaps! I love the idea of doing an Atmos "mix" myself using Logic's binaural spatial audio and then getting you the "rough" ADM BWF file for Atmos mastering. Look forward to hearing more about this process soon!
A fine system but you really need to be in the sweet spot to get the full effect. Very few people can achieve that unless they are using special headphones. I once worked in a mobile that had full surround for recording and mixing but we almost always ended up using L_C_R for the mixdowns because most recordings were meant for Radio broadcasting. The few rear and side channel uses were ambient and audience mics. This mobile was used for live band recordings.
Why I am skeptical. I have a 4 loudspeakers living room. Speakers designed and built by myself. Just a hobby, nothing professional. But it gives me a lot of fun. I played a lot with SACD and DVD-Audio. I own a lot of those. If mix is well done, it works. It happens 5% of the times.
Of course Atmos is intrinsically different, I know, I studied a little.
I cannot believe an ADM file will sound really good in my living room, which is a cave for fanatics. Being a fanatic I don't think I will setup a 7.4.1 system.
If I am wrong, I will be happy.
Give me a good ADM decoding matrix with Dac at cheap price and I will be happy to buy and test. My Marantz home theater amp has Atmos. Tidal has atmos files, I wasn't able to make the things work. Let's see what happens...
Awesome content guys, was going to sub anyway, but that sea shot made me click the button. Hilarious!
Great video, Mark and James about Dolby Atmos. I love it.
When you see the big film music mixers holding forums about it, and contrasting it with former surround systems then it's time to listen. So I bought pro tools studio, the production suite and good headphones.
Preliminary result after comparing quite a few tracks in atmos and standard mix (Sheryl Crow - All I wanna do, John Lennon - Instant Karma, Elton John - Saturday Night, Tom Petty - You don't know how it feels, Billie Eilish - bad guy to name a few): hardly ever, the atmos versions brought something interesting or revealing to the table. Conversely, some had in turn odd choices of positioning. Nothing that could not be done with current techniques - before and without Dolby Atmos. Just to name the "DearVR Music" plugin. Now, all of this comparing had to be done over my Androind Smartphone and (quality) bluetooth headphones. Because neither Spotify nor Tidal are offering Atmos listings - be it on web player or Windows App. So: to enjoy the supposed improvement, I am to listen to a lossy codecs..
3 years ago, I stretched my budget to get the best stereo monitor speakers for the money I had to burn. Maybe it's telling that it's a make and model that James and Mark despise. But these speakers opened my ears ..after several decades of hifi journey. Personal preference ? Which leads me to the conclusion: more power to whoever finds Atmos a meaningful addition to his or her sonics. Personally, I am not going to spend a multiple of the amount I invested 2019 - to plaster my home studio with 10 more speakers. The whole affair to me is leaning towards 'Emperor's new clothes'. If it is oh-so-compatible with binaural or 2.0 setups - why don't we concentrate on honing our mixing skills and taste. The work is cut out for everyone and we already have enough tools - not too few.
Guys! I was missing you.
I’ve gotta admit that my first impression about Dolby atmos was really disappointing. My Apple earbuds made it sound like if I was listening in a glass bubble.
There’s an album, Coldplay’s last one that’s been mixed into atmos, and though it sounds incredible in regular stereo I’be always wondered how would it be in a atmos room.
I’ve always thought that atmos was going nowhere for it’s sound on headphones, and the fact that not many people can set up an 7.1.4 calibrated sound system home without getting divorced, but you are making me change my mind. And that’s a bad thing because I’m seeing myself spending a mortgage in my new music studio
The main issue is the state of the Worldwide economy at the moment and squeeze on disposable income. Not only that electronic component supply is at a low too. Possibly not the ideal time to release such a new tech to a mass market. Not down to the tech though. Probably the same reason Quad and 5.1 failed, were there not recessions about at the time.
I've been trying to get people interested in 5.1 and quad mixes for a long time. It will be cool to see what's been done already come to life in atmos and spatial audio.
great video ... changed my studio into dolby atmos too .... its so mind blowing ... music has changed to life ;-)
Sounds like listener would be on a stage right next to the instruments. Surrounded by instruments! Must be an exiting experience.
Very nice explanation!
Ps. 🤬 loudness war! 😂
Considering the tight requirements for listening position - and possibly room, even, it makes a lot of sense that creating content is a lot easier and more effective than traditional stereo. In the traditional method, you put in a lot of work so that your stuff will sound good on every possible system, PA included. In atmos, it appears that you put in some work and the system does the rest for you.
Ahhhhh finally. It's been a long month guys! (Can definitely say I missed you)
My thoughts after having tried out dolby atmos -- Immersive Audio, whether it's Dolby Atmos or any other form of spatial audio that might come up is definitely being heavily pushed in the industry right now, and for good reason. It sounds GREAT - if done right, and it can TRANSLATE. That being said, there's a lot of mediocre spatial audio mixes out right now, and that's because everyone is figuring it out. There are a lot of odd techniques being implemented. Some work, some don't. My favourite approach to Dolby, might be the most vanilla approach, but it works - Putting yourself in the listener's shoes and placing the band around you as if you were smack in the middle of the room with them, and then you can pan random things around like pads and synths and nobody could bat an eye.
Great video as usual guys! Can't wait to hear your speaker recommendations!
Dear Mark, James and Floppy, great informations as always. Just wondering, what decoder are you using to monitor the ATMOS?
We haven’t got one, we’re just using our regular (Focusrite) interfaces. You can listen to commercial mixes straight from your Mac now (see our most recent video!)
4:00 I often have that reaction as well, but that's most often because of a good sounding reverb fooling me in a proper stereo mix.
Looking forward seeing the development and hopefully in a short time we will get rid of all the bin-ready atmos down mixes > stereo on Netflix and HBO.
In our multi-track world, it makes sense to hear Atmos can place things right where you want them. And the downward compatibility might be the difference to make this the new standard. It might make hardware development progress faster as the demand increases. My computer has an old Quad Sansui receiver that hardly drives the rear channels, except in some games.
Okay guy’s first Streaky and now you two. I’m considering looking in to this now.
It’s a new frontier, very exciting, and open to experimentation (as was the stereo LCR back in the days). Also very expensive but I’ll wait for your next video. I work with music for sync… how come that movies still require just stereo masters? How long till atmos songs will become a thing? … Flopcat has been measured 😂 Love your videos 💙
What a great video! Can't wait for the next part.
The required higher dynamic range is extremely welcome and something that I wasn't aware of so far.
I can't recommend Warren Huart's latest interview with Bob Clearmountain enough, that really puts a lot of things regarding Dolby Atmos into perspective. (And how to work in Atmos on an old SSL console...)
Also, Bob Clearmountain is still using his trusted Dynaudio BM15As (and home-cinema ceiling speakers) for his Atmos setup. They aren't cheap but a lot more affordable than ATCs and he seems to be doing okay with them.
Also, not overusing automated surround panning comes up more and more often. Having a jet flying through the room might be cool in a movie but can get distracting very easily when it comes to music.
As a grumpy 47 year old northerner who generally loathes the modern world, I have to say I find this quite exciting. Still grumpy though.
Using even Dolby Headphones technology is insane already (through Razer Thresher Ultimates). Would love to check out DA.
Having a slightly silly 7.1.4 Atmos setup in my living room (no, it's definitely not calibrated and nor are all the speakers matched, move on) is there any music in Atmos and on Bluray worth listening to? i.e tastefully done, not mixed with guitars spinning overhead and the vocals in the rear left channel. The old world of channel-based surround remixes was bollocks, so I don't really want to take punts on more surround remixes absent recommendations for stuff that's actually good. Interested to hear recommendations from those here assembled.
given the push for spatial on apple music is doing really well so far, i think it is definitely the future
I had to stop the video and tell you that I am glad I subscribed long time ago...come to think of it, now I know why Flopcat is so big! 🤣
Hi, do you have some examples at hand where n00bs like me can get an idea of a proper binaural mixdown of some Atmos productions ?
Or even something one can load in Logic and play around with.
Opencontent.Netflix.com has some great stuff for you to play with! This is movie sound, so it’s not music. Not sure where to get multitracks for that yet. But just any multitracks from a standard recording can be made into an Atmos recording in logic so easily!
Very excited about Dolby Atmos, HOWEVER... Hopefully Dolby will find a way to get the binaural headphone renderer closer to the speaker experience to provide beginners and those who doesn't have the space for a 7.1.4 system in their home studio a way to deliver quality mixes without breaking the bank and stay competitive on the market. Setting up a stereo system today is easy and cheap, not really a multichannel one... So far at least. 🤞
Yes, the binaural render is improving all the time! Can’t wait to see where it goes, it’s already so convincing
The binaural render is WAY ahead of where it was only a few months ago, shockingly so! And it's getting better all the time - the track I worked on producing with Joe I sent to him as a binaural mix to listen to on his bluetooth headphones and his reply was "Big fat WOW!"
Just finished writing my thesis paper on Dolby Atmos and why it will succeed where previous surround formats failed. I'm very excited for the future adoption of Dolby Atmos.
Interesting! Glad to know you’re of the same opinion :)
Love the response Mark had @ 4:00 - Where are you getting your source material for the headphone listening session?
I’d love to have a similar reaction to Mark’s, but it hasn’t happened yet even though I listened to Rocket Man at the Apple Store on Air Pod Max headphones..
Also - What is your source for ATMOS material for your speaker systems?
Emmitt
Planar headphones really show how good atmos is, sometimes they scare me since a sound will come from behind suddenly
I've never had a single client ask me for / about anything other than stereo mixes / masters. Once that changes, I'll perhaps start taking things like Atmos seriously, but right now it's just not something I am able to offer, and my clients don't appear to want it. Make of that what you will.
Hey Ant - same here! Until about two weeks ago, now it seems everyone wants it… the labels and bigger artists at least.
@@CraigScottFrost probably not tbh
This has got myself very excited 😊
Glad to hear it!
Yeah I agree that its time for progress in music format... I got an atmos ready laptop... and i'm atmos ready... just need the knowledge and money... But... whats the next step for atmos... movie theatres have it, but will there be concerts with atmos setup... in stadiums, in festivals outdoor... what about he sweet spot then? Can you stream atmos music? Most of us listens to streamed music, as i see it. The atmos headphones will be important... my quick search resulted in gaming gear...
If I'm ready, are there products to enjoy atmos recordings, at home, in the car and so on?
You don't need money unless you want to set up a proper speaker system. All you need is a pair of headphones, ANY headphones - they don't have to be Atmos enabled. And you can already stream it from Apple Music (switch 'spatial audio' on), Tidal and Amazon (only currently works with their Echo devices).
So, did you put that Behringer Ultragain ( I think ) up there at 5:39 to show us, that any gear can be used?
I admit, Mark's reaction, when he pulled off the headphones made me extremely curious, to finally give it a go.
That said, let's say I'll create an adm file in Cubase (yes, there's a world beyond Logic), could I send it in for mastering already?
It’s stock footage, fortunately ;) but yes, any gear I guess!
I would 100% say to give it a go. It’s so worth it. Game-changing.
And… regarding the mastering, let us work things out then talk to you about it :) I think “yes” is the answer but need to confirm some things :)
Well spotted! And don't use one of those, ever, for anything other than holding a door open 😁 But yes, it's getting really good now, and I was blown away at how much the binaural render has improved over the past few months. We're not 'properly' set up yet, but meeting with Dolby next week, and attending the launch of the new Adam A series monitors which we're hoping will be perfect for a calibrated Atmos system that doesn't require you to sell your house and a kidney!
@@PresentDayProduction I already did, maybe ok in a live rack, or to add some mud to synths, but I wouldn't recommend those, too.
I'm not setting up an ATMOS system and have to rely on binaural mixes and headphones, at least in the forseeable future,
I'm only thinking of one particular extended mix for a 12" and an immersive version as bait for the four people who care :D.
I totally agree with you on Atmos being the future! Just one question: where can I listen to an ADM file without publishing it on streaming services?
You can play it with QuickTime on a Mac (and set your system up as per this video)
You missed the opportunity to have that end music in Dolby Atmos recorded to stereo in binaural mode. Still sounded good though. :)
Since you are finding less compression and eq are needed do you think that that real recorded instruments sound better in atmos? Will auto tuned vocals sound much worse? I’m just wondering if atmos will have a major impact on acoustic music and real instruments verses super produced things made inside a computer?
Instruments are certainly sounding pretty incredible in the test mixes we’ve done, the dynamics are great and the clarity is superb!
The immersion is amazing, but given a specific budget I'll always prefer having fewer better speakers over having many crappy speakers. Bad sound is fatiguing no matter how many channels you have.
We agree.
The "Holy Shit!" moment says it all!
Wow, if there's one album I like to hear in Atmos, it would be Freak out by The Mothers...(of Invention), specifically "Who are the Brain Police" Maybe one day I'll do a cover of this as "Who are The Dolby Police", in an Atmos mix.
(Probably won't as I suspect it would be nigh on impossible!)
I tried Apple Music spatial audio and TIdal with both Apple Airpods Pro and Sony wh-1000xm4 and thought that most mixes sounded not great when comparing to the stereo version. Even with the suggested best spatial audio playlists. Obviously with proper surround speakers the mixes sound better, I think 5.1 upmixes also sound great when listening on 5.1 system, but the thing is, the binaural version did not sound better than the stereo version on headphones. Some spatial effects just sounded wrong and there was a feeling of unnecessary/false space. At least when I tested it couple of months ago. Has that changed?
Another interesting thing is something that you said at 9:03 - Dolby renderer somehow makes your stereo speakers sound surround? Why do you think that is even good? Is the music meant to sound like that? What is the relation to stereo mix in this case?
It’s improved vastly in headphones over the past few months, and seems to be getting better by the week. The really good Atmos mixes are starting to sound a lot better than the stereo ones in headphones and on two speakers (check out Ian Shepherd’s excellent video on the Production Advice YT channel where he compares a Billie Eilish and Ed Sheehan mix in Atmos and stereo), but there are a lot of crapmos mixes out there already! And music sounding deeper, wider, and more immersive on my stereo speakers? Yes please, I’ll have some more of that!
If Atmos wants to succeed they have to liberate the production cost by creating a headphone solution that works for all the (homel producers. Like the Tascam 4 channel cassette did in the 80s. We should not go back to systems that demands Hugh technology solutions to be able to work. Secondly there is not really a solution to master 128 sonic parts (beside some tricks).
They already have - it's free with Logic on a Mac now, and the binarual renderer is improving all the time (just keep the software up to date), and has been available with Nuendo for years. I'm confident you can start creating magical mixes right now just on headphones in Logic. And that's why you need the mastering at the end of the chain. Someone to listen to your mix on a calibrated mastering grade speaker system in a superbly treated room and make sure nothing weird is going on, that the mix translates, and that it's going to the ADM at the proper levels. It doesn't need a limiter slapped across it - Atmos mastering will be a very different process to stereo mastering, at least if I'm doing it! 😊
@@PresentDayProduction Ah, yeah - they need to make it available on all DAWs. No offense to Logic users. :)
What the heck progress is progress. the audiophile in me is worried about the fact that my system has to do the decoding while most streaming services still struggle to give us a decent cd quality or lossless stream.
But if this could become a universal thing it'd be amazing, finally a standard that is more then just a goal.
Maybe we will have music on blu-rays? My worry is that it will end up like SACD did.
I have full shelf of SACD's and they sound gorgeous but so what? World just moved on and settled on streaming mp3's...
Had a listen to some tracks again, and another play in Logic. Dynamically it sounds better, thats the additional headroom being allowed that you can see in the metering. The ability to do this with affordable systems is a factor. From listening though, I compared it to some standard stereo mixes and this is not a replacement, a different experience though for sure. It seems to almost add in the "room" reverb as part of the panning - but this might be the way it renders and I'm sure other tricks are going on - how this is on a proper multiple speaker setup would have to be heard. It may very well add a new market, but not a stereo killer, I think stereo has its sound, I just think as you say it's a bit boring and this might add some spice back into the pushing the future of how tracks become mixed. The confusion will be that as I have seen you have different ways of rendering this down, meaning you then have Apples renderer, Dolbys Renderer and I worry that multiple qualities will confuse the general listeners - maybe.
Well the ADM file is the 'master'. If you listen on Apple music, Apple then decode that ADM to their spatial version, Amazon use the Dolby rendering algortihtm, as do Tidal. So all we need to worry about is uploading an ADM to the required specification and the streaming services do the rest. And this is obviously completely transparent for the consumer.
@@PresentDayProduction I appreciate this however - I noticed quite a difference in the rendering - how does one master for such big differences.
All my 5.1 and 7.2 systems will simulate missing speakers. So when used without a center, the fronts simulate a «phantom» center speaker. Nothing is lost.
Please stream a live Atmos mixing session!!
Hooorah... they’re back..!
12:07...erm... am I missing something... or is the video edit missing something... speak(er) out if you spot it.
Q; Why did the Dolby Atmos Engineer enjoy recording at a Star Trek lookalike convention..? A: He met a Data.
We’ve had object-based music for decades... for example, I object to a lot of hairspray-rock or Nashville style Country, by turning the radio off should it appear on there.
A fordítás minden, és a légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal.
...oh... and, no... a smart phone is not the small device I carry around, in order to listen to music... I use a little digital Sony Walkman... do I win..?
As long as consumers can get the equipment it should work
I've warmed up a lot to Atmos after the initial rounds of awful mixes I heard when Apple Music launched it as a feature where all the guitars were just flying around your head. Newer, more tasteful mixes have really changed my mind. However there's still four things bothering me about Atmos:
1) While a stereo mix can be summed into a mono mix, an Atmos mix cannot be summed into a stereo mix. And for the foreseeable future you absolutely cannot release your music just in Atmos so you have to make an entirely separate mix for stereo. More than doubles the time and budget to create.
2) Sometimes I want to screw with headphone listeners and place something in only one ear. With head tracked Atmos mixes I can't do that anymore as the listener can nullify my mixing choices by simply turning their head
3) Plugin support is not here, and will not be here for a long time. Some native logic plugins now carry an option for 7.1.4 but It will be a LONG time before 3rd part plugins adopt this new format. This is really problematic because 2-channel stereo effects that used to be really cool now feel like you're watching a magic show but know how all of the tricks work.
4) DOLBY Atmos is of course, proprietary as hell. ADM files are a pain to work with, as you can't even play them back locally unless you buy DOLBY's expensive software. I have a trick to export logic Atmos mixes in .aif, but it's a dumb workaround and it's incredibly stupid to me that we're creating art in a format that you can't share with friends or even listen to yourself without pulling up the project file. Art should be created on an open-source canvass, not upon some company's intellectual property.
I would add a few competing thoughts:
1) An Atmos mix can most definitely be summed into a stereo mix and there are professionals out there who are delivering exactly that to the aggregators: the ADM file and the stereo mixdown of that ADM file, with their opinion being that the stereo mixdown sounds better to them than any regular stereo mixes they have done in the past. That is the one important possibility that Atmos provides - to be the de facto delivery format for any playback system from mono speakers to cinemas with speakers in the double digits. Yes, at the moment most releases have the stereo and Atmos mix done separately, but it's still early days and as the formats implementation in music and the skills of the engineers evolve, the end goal could be to make only the ADM.
2) Head tracking is not a function of Atmos mixes and is not directly connected to it in any way, it is a separate product that Apple(and other companies in other fields) offers and its a choice of the consumer to buy those specific headphones and engage with content in that way. So I don't think it makes sense to make mixing choices based on what some consumers might do, that's like saying "there's no point in panning anything in my stereo mix because someone might listen to it in a mono speaker and nullify my choices".
3) While the amount certainly doesn't compare to the amount of stereo plugins, there are still a bunch of 3rd party plugins that are Atmos-capable.
I agree on point 1 - the Atmos mix I did for our client is WAY better in stereo than the stereo mix was. It's somehow retained the clarity and 'openness' of the Atmos speaker mix and the (subtle) rear elements are really clearly there. I couldn't have done that in stereo.
Head tracking makes me feel sick, and whilst I appreciate that HRTF is a very important mechanism for our ears and brains locating sound, Apple have overdone it somewhat - and the Apple spatial render sounds nowhere near as good as the Dolby one.
I've had no problem at all playing ADM files in Quicktime by just right clicking on 'open with...' You can also send a client a binaural mix, as I did with Jo - his track is going on UA-cam with the accompanying video, so an ADM is out of the question for that at the moment.
@@beckisagod 1) That's good to hear, as soon as we get to that point it will greatly help adoption when artists don't have to worry about choosing what format to mix in
2) I think it actually IS important to keep in mind what the end listener will be listening on. For the same reasons Quincy Jones tested Thriller mixes on bad speakers, it's important (if you want to focus on being commercially successful of course, if not that's totally ok as well) to make sure the average Joe who throws on AirPods and streams with default settings has a great experience
3) Unfortunately none of mine yet :,)
@@PresentDayProduction That's super interesting, that's not a Binaural mix correct? I'm sure that wouldn't work well on speakers, so how do you sum up an Atmos mix to stereo?
Also ya head tracking is a bit odd, and I don't think it helps Atmos' adoption when it's rather janky implementation is typically the DEFAULT way people are introduced to Atmos
Regarding your last point: I agree in principle that proprietary formats (especially ones that force you to make a decision about the distribution format even before you start mixing) are not a great idea. However, and this is brought up far too rarely imho, ADM is an open standard. It is not owned by Dolby, nor did they invent it. There are different ADM profiles for different vendor specific formats like Atmos or MPEG-H, but the entire Audio Definition Model is extremely comprehensive, and includes pretty much anything that you can do with spatial audio. This has a lot of interesting implications for productions in the future. If you want a glimpse of where this might be going, you can check out the EBU ADM Render, as well as the EAR production suite (both of them are open source), the latter of which can already import and play back Atmos ADM (including an absolutely spectacular binaural renderer, which even has head tracking support).
What would you predict (roleplay Nostradamus) for the 3d music if Dolby Atmos should commercially fail?
Good question, and I don’t think it shows any sign of failing! I’ve also messed around with Sony 360 and didn’t like it, so I don’t really think there’s a competing format at the moment
I’ve been looking into mixing in atmos. But I can’t afford the license for the renderer let alone the speaker system.😅😭 I think I will figure something out though! It is a very cool new way to be creative and I’m always up for learning new things! I might just bite the bullet and buy it and mix atmos on headphones!
It’s free with Logic right now, and Nuendo, and Davinci Resolve, and I’m sure it will reach other DAWs very soon!
I have had a Denon receiver that has Dolby Atmos for over 5 years, but because I listen to everything in 2.1 (on admittedly fantastic vintage Infinity speakers) I have no idea if its even doing anything. I have little idea how to use it, what content I own might include it and am unable to tell if its doing anything when it is enabled.
If these companies can't find ways to get people engaged in the features they offer on end-user devices, then how is this ever going to gain traction in the marketplace? From the perspective of the end user, Atmos is no different than 3D, HDR, 8K, AR, VR etc... it something certain devices we own support, but we never use it because its either confusing, requires spending more money that we don't want to spend to access it, none of the content we have access to uses it, or it flat out doesn't work.
As I've heard a few friends of mine work in Atmos, I can't agree more that stereos days are numbered.
I'm just trying to figure out a way to cobble together something with 5 ILoud Mtn's and 2 Focal Shape twins.
Aaaaand my wallet begins to cry
When most people in the world say ... "well I can hear it so it will do" and "why are speakers so bloody expensive"... there isn't a hope in hell of getting Norbert Normy to invest in 11 speakers and an expensive bit of kit to run them. The mixing part means every engineer has to get the system too...hardly anybody bothered with 5.1 and this is the same, it is for muso left hand mousers and will just fade away.
But that's the point, Norbert doesn't NEED to invest in 11 speakers. We are giving him a better listening experience when he's listening through earbuds connected to his phone, and increasingly when he gets in the car. And he doesn't even know it.
@@PresentDayProduction I hear what you are saying... though I reckon we should have a bet.😜
Wasn't expecting you guys to like Atmos!
Looking forward to hearing non shit headphone mixes! :)
Great video, but I'm still waiting for the Atmos mix that doesn't suck on headphones. I'm not even going to mention a sound bar that still is doing my head how Atmos can translate into a sound bar.
Guys are you familiar with the company and UA-cam channel GR Research? While they seem to work mainly in the audiophile hifi world the gentleman Danny Richie seems to know a lot about all sorts of different technology and his work involves taking in gear and upgrading components to make better gear. I know you might have plans with Jez for a PDP speaker, but GR Research do offer self build loudspeaker kits with what they see as top quality parts. They have a couple of models which may well be a possibility for an Atmos rig - their NX studio monitor speaker and their XLS Encore speaker (with fully upgraded crossover components). I'd be interested to know your thoughts on this gentleman and this channel. He has some very interesting videos about open baffle speakers and Servo driven subs which seem like they might also be very effective.
Can you please show how to setup headphones and Atmos software ?
I am confused on it
Yes! We'll have a video on that very soon!
The thing about atmos for music that I don't get is, when do you actually want to listen to music that way?
When I'm listening to music most of the time I'm either driving, or walking outside. And I don't want just guitars spinning around my head, I want nothing spinning around my head those times D:. When I'm at home listening to music over my speakers I'm probably doing some house work in the meantime so no immersive elements there either since I'm not even in front of my speakers. So yeah the only place I see for atmos is in front of the TV: video games, films, series and for music in the form of special edition with accompanying video clip
I was super sceptical, but when do I want to listen to music that way after spending a good two solid days doing so? ALL THE F***ING TIME!! And can’t wait until I have it in the car (the perfect Atmos environment), at home, and look forward to the binaural headphone version getting better over time!
@@PresentDayProduction fair enough haha. It's probably one of those things you really have to experience for yourself to get it
How do we submit music for Atmos mastering? Entire Sessions? 12 Stems?
Currently you don’t, but when Atmos Mastering becomes a thing, an ADM file would be the way to go. All the audio multi tracks with processing and directionality embedded per channel.
@@PresentDayProduction What if we don't have the ability to submit an ADM file? Meaning I don't have an Atmos setup of any kind, but would love to get Atmos stem masters from your service from my existing songs.
I believe this would fall more under “Atmos mixing” - you send us the regular multitracks you’d send to a mixing engineer, and we make it “Atmos” by arranging it into a new Atmos-compatible mix. If you don’t have an Atmos setup then getting past the mixing stage wouldn’t be possible - going straight for an Atmos master would yield little benefit.
However - this is all very new and when WE work out our workflow, that may all change.
@@PresentDayProduction Perfect. Thank you! I'm excited to see what you guys do. I would definitely prepare for the situation we've talked about here. I can see a lot of people wanting to get their content into the Atmos format, but without the proper equipment. I feel this scenario might be common.
Wonderful!
I would suggest that on your end, it’s identical to sending off for a “regular” mix. Just raw multitracks. Just for your info :)
I have to disagree. I was curious and got a trial of apple music and tried it with my Audeze and airpods - the "bucket sound" is still there, the stereo versions are a lot more clear and have infinitely more punch. Atmos-spatial sounds like the sound is coming from the other room. Most importantly does not excite me unless I switch to Stereo.
Yeah I agree and remain a sceptic. Have been comparing atoms mixes on Tidal to Stereo mixes. I can see the potential for a slight advantage in terms of width and depth. But the stereo mixes sound tighter. The good Atmos mixes are not really very different from the stereo mixes also, on headphones that is. Also some mixes are extreme in where instruments are being positioned, something which I'm not a fan of.
The Apple spatial version is currently nowhere near as good as the Dolby binaural render in my opinion. It seems to add that bucket like room sound, but a lot of it also depends on the decisions the mixer made with the binaural settings in the renderer. Setting almost everything to ‘near’ sounds much better to me.
@@PresentDayProduction I've been comparing mixes through Tidal on my phone that supposedly has the latest Dolby AC-4 codec, obviously using headphones. I'm really not getting much from it tbh. Maybe its the device. But so far Atmos is not really that impressive to me when comparing directly to stereo mixes. I'm usually with you guys, but on this so far I cannot hear a benefit. If anything the atmos mixes suffer from a low mid build up from the ones I've heard so far.
I just simply can’t get on board with it. Yet. I’m yet to hear a mix of a single atmos mix that sounds better on headphones than a bog standard stereo mix.
I imagine it’s a completely different kettle of fish with a purpose built system.
Technically, the expandability of the technology gives it a much better chance than Quad, but....will there be enough customers clamoring for a full-on atmos mix to justify engineers charging higher prices? It's hard to say, but upgrade tech like this has be a noticeable upgrade or else it usually goes by the wayside and doesn't recover.
The Atmos mixes in theaters never seem to impress me either as random noises playing out of the side channels seem more like distractions. I would take a loud and clear stereo setup in a theater over a lower quality surround set up.
It's great to see you guys back! "SUBSCRIBE OR FLOP CAT WILL EAT YOU!" Should have been "BUY IN TO DOLBY ATMOS". On a more serious note I have an old (20+years) consumer grade 5.1 surround system and listening to and watching the U2 Live in Mexico Dvd in 5.1 Dolby (at a seriously loud volume, when the misses is out) is totally awesome. It makes me hear and feel as if, I'm the crowd at the stadium and my room isn't even treated! Bring on the advances in Atmos!😻😻😻😻😻
It sounds really cool, and I hope the format catches on. But my sense is that, like other innovations, it’s not something that will endure. How do you get the money to pay for all the hardware, software, etc. involved? Ultimately it has to come from consumers, who are listening on either a single Bluetooth speaker, headphones, or a stereo. They might think it’s cool, but they’re not gonna give us any extra money. My two cents.
Okay. Mix in Atmos, downmix to stereo. Done! :)
Trinnov ought to be an affordable upgrade for your atmos setup
🤣
I think Trinnov is priced very fairly. Ok, it's £10,000-£12,000 for an Atmos capable unit, and the hardware probably costs £1000 to manufacture, but the amount of insane R&D that has gone into that system makes it worth ten times that as far as I am concerned. What I would REALLY like to see from the 'pro' Trinnov (D-mon/MC etc) is the ablity for it to plug in to your computer via USB-C and therefore also be your main interface, and for it to be able to accept an HDMI input to decode commercial Atmos mixes streaming on Apple, Tidal, Netfilx et al - as can their Altitude 16 and 32 consumer versions.
@@PresentDayProduction I agree 100%. For the reasons you mentioned, I’m on the fence with Trinnov. I’ll probably get an ST2 for now, and maybe some day when they get the decoding and input configuration sorted, it’ll such a price increase from the ST2, that I will have not wasted my money per se. OR I can just start saving now to have an Atmos rig of some sort in the future
51%er here! I'm sorry to say this, but I think Atmos, like all its predecessors, unfortunately only sounds "immersive" on a true 7.1.4 system.
I've tried everything in Cubase 12 with the Dolby renderer (set to binaural), but no matter what headphones I use, my ears don't detect any useful spatial information, other than phase problems. I only ever hear "left" or "right", but never "back" or "top left" for example.
Also, I can't really take all the hype seriously: For decades the industry has told us that you absolutely have to work with "at least 192kHz" on the new fancy equipment and use lossless audio. But now Dolby comes around the corner with 48kHz and data reduction, and that's supposed to be the next big thing?
I currently have the impression that many studio owners are lying to themselves because they already invested in a fat 7.1.4. system. Why should the Hammond come from the back left? Why does the guitar need to fly around? Because it can, and not because it makes musical sense. (just my 2ct)
And a really "dry" sound you look in vain with Atmos, because everything that is in that room, you do not get rid of.
I recently did a Atmos poll like on my Facebook page, just for fun. And tbh it turned out much worse than yours😂
ic guitar is lost in Atmos, and you can clearly hear that the juxtaposition of things that are in the center of the image and elements that are stereo is completely lost in Atmos. There is a phasey effect in the intro of the song ‘Makeba’ that in stereo sounds super drastic and interesting and serves as the perfect relative foil to the elements that drop in the middle of the stereo field right down the center when the song drops and kicks in. In Atmos that effect is still audible but in loses it’s potency because Atmos makes it sound as if all of the elements are coming from the same place in this weird compressed, hyped low mid range stew. Now, granted this is in headphones, (AKG 240 made in Austria), so perhaps in a fully outfitted Atmos equipped room, the difference is astonishing, and I look forward to having that transcendent experience. Sadly, Atmos changes the character of these mixes in a way that is different but definitely not better. In fact, it ruins aspects of these three mixes that are clear and make the listening experience suffer. Listen for yourself, share your thoughts.
One note: Dolby is *not* certifying atmos sound studios anymore.
(According to their support folks in the little tiny forum they have)
But they still have their best practices, and they still check out your studio if you want to be on their list
@@PresentDayProductionthose best practices super detailed!
And the DART design tool is sooo helpful!
Are they actually still accepting new submissions to that list on the website?
Wait a minute.. bit of a headscratch but not having to eq any instrument will sound pretty horrid no?
Great video, but that poll is flawed. There was no option for being interested in Atmos but not having access to it at the moment. It basically seemed like most of the options were jokes. The option about Atmos dying was funniest, so most people probably chose it because of that. But it might have been the goal of the poll!
Not at all, if you've got a pair of headphones and an internet connection then you've got access to it
Oh, I am certain Atmos is great and has its place. But I can't imagine it being the future of regular mixes and productions. Atmos is important for movies you're watching in the cinema, because it sounds bonkers if you have the according setup. BUT it does not translate well to headphones. Every professional (I've heard/seen talking about it), that really dug in deeper seems to agree that it's just not the same on headphones. And I don't think it can ever be the same in the near future and certainly not reasonably priced - for the average consumer. That's why I think Dolby Atmos will not die, but it will also not conquer regular music production. Certainly there will be (more) music mixed in and for atmos, but this is likely going to be for movies or other "special occasions" and will not be the norm.
And let us not forget that most engineers will not be able to afford it anyway, let alone most artists. There is absolutely no world in which dolby atmos becomes mainstream for regular music production and mixing. It really doesn't matter how great it is. There are many things that are amazing and do not become mainstream - this is one of them.
And of course I'm only talking about the foreseeable future. Nobody knows what may happen if we catch a big break in terms of technology, average wealth, etc. somewhere in the next 100 or 1000 years.
y'all never gave the option of"
Im trying to get a setup but can't seem to find one that works for me"
I don’t think atmos binaural works for me. It sounds spacey but non directional. But it sounds like I need to listen to it again
Some people are more repsonsive to binaural in headphones than others, I find it works really well for me, but no a few people that really don't hear it at all
Do those ADM mixes get lossy compression? It seems wild that we can't even get decent audio quality out of Spotify and we're talking about these huge files that include all the stems. If I'm being frankly honest, I'm really skeptical. I feel like audio quality has taken a real hit in the last few years. Sound bars sound like crap (to me) and many bluetooth headphones do as well. It may just be a perception thing but I feel like even from the days of the black boom boxes 20 or so years ago, the baseline for "acceptable" audio quality has dropped off dramatically. Basically ever since the iPod took off it's been going down hill.
Now how's this going to work out for indie artists and their mixes? I'm totally sure a major label production can produce amazing results but for home produced stuff that's mixed on headphones is making atmos a new standard really going to improve anything? Especially when apparently it "sucked" 6 months ago, is the stuff from today going to suck in the future? Like outdated CGI in movies? I swear Jar Jar Binks looked photo realistic in 1999!!!
It definitely seems neat, if you have the room setup, but to slap it on a sound bar just reads like marketing to me. TV's have gone from SD to HD to UHD, it's like they want something similar for audio when in reality a great speaker system from 40 years ago is still great today, why upgrade? Well I guess because it doesn't have atmos 🤷♂️
Yes the ADM files do suffer from data compression, but everything we’ve listened to on Apple Music and Tidal sounds WAY better than Spotify, so that is a technology that is improving all the time. To steam the full resolution ADM would obviously be insane!
And I don’t think stereo on good speakers from 40 years ago is going anywhere. Where Atmos is the most exciting for me is for the consumer who doesn’t know or care what they’re listening to. If it’s a path to a greater musical experience without them even realising it then that must be for the greater good?
As always, you guys have nailed it. Stereo’s days are numbered!
Hi! Since you guys are going for the atmos mastering route, here is a mastering engineer who figured how to apply dynamic and tonal processing to ADM using a "phantom mix bus" to trigger processing on the 128 object buses in correlation just like a stereo mixbus ! It's pure brilliance. Here is the link : ua-cam.com/video/PQuT2jiDJck/v-deo.html
well I'm sold. Does this mean you'll be bankrupting yourselves with ATC atmos?
… maybe ;) who knows!
It would be nice to see binaural become popular in music. But Atmos I'm not sure. You started off saying that it is not elitist, but ended it saying only fully treated professional studios with an expensive speaker system fully accredited by Dolby can produce it. That there is the reason it will never take hold, just like other expensive elitist formats in the past.
But binaural, whether headphones or speakers is available for all studios without extra costs and accreditation. I could definitely see this as the future. All you need to buy is DearVR and you are good to go with your existing system.
No, I didn’t say only pro studios can produce music in it at all, and ABSOLUTELY encourage you to get cracking using the binaural render in headphones. What I did say is that you would then be advised to send it to a pro studio with a properly calibrated system that confirms to Dolby’s best practices for mastering as quality control. That will make sure that your mix translates, and is future proof. So get creating! The binaural render is already pretty damn good!😉
@@PresentDayProduction if you are mixing in binaural and rendering it as such for other people to listen in their headphones because they definitely don't have an Atmos system at home (which is another thing holding back the format). Why do I have to send it to a Dolby accredited studio, when it's never going to be heard in that format?
I was wondering where you guys were? Since James has a doppelganger doing Wendy's commercials here in the States, I thought he might've grabbed Floppy and flown the coop, leaving Mark with nothing but his beloved ADATs to keep him company.
Ooo I need to find these commercials! Got a link?
ua-cam.com/video/x_4bOOOzq2U/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/YgW_Wj0MU90/v-deo.html
Ohh, 3D Flop time! :-)!!!
It's been years
It has!
Hearing a lot of people in expensive multi-speaker studios tell me how great Atmos is.
We're in a studio with expensive stereo speakers - the rest are budget nearfields (and one pair cost £20 from the local chariy shop). And it's f***ing awesome. And in headphones it's getting awesome too
@@PresentDayProduction Don't get me wrong - I do believe you! It's just that atm I have to take the word of people who have the set up to hear it properly. I do have a question about listening position though - if using headphones, obviously not an issue, but what happens in a room with multi-point speakers if you're listening off axis? Does it ruin the mix?
Atmos = more speakers for Floppy to sit on. 🥳
LOL
There goes my console. Mixing in 3D with a mouse. No thanks.
Actually thought this was a wind-up when I saw your configuration (ATC mixed with Adam?? Good luck eq'ing that..). I'm not massively convinced - yet. I've A/B'd some spatal-ready tracks (Gaga, lipa.. etc.) on Apple Music (using regular wired Apple earbuds - admittedly not Atmos-enabled) and was throughly underwhelmed. I felt more immersed watching GB News.
As we all know anyway, binaural is absolutely not - an Atmos mix.
It's in danger of being a lot less than the sum of it's parts. Everyone thought 3D cinema was going to be a thing and studios started adding extraneous elements like anything to 'poke out the screen' Great. Avatar might have been an 'experience' but that didn't stop it looking like a ten-year old girl had done the production design. (point being the drum kit sounding like it's sitting on my head isn't a compensation for a crap song).
What I can say is the mix-mentalness options that Atmos is likely to give artists & producers is filling me with genuine panic.
Watch this space right? And for godsake can someone do a Logic vlog about mastering the bed and object 'channels' - please?
To be clear - the setup we had was very much a test bed to make sure things were working. We’re working on a full Atmos system now
Fair enough. Don't forget a mastering vlog
We’ll be releasing some content very soon on how our new speakers are performing, as well as just general information on them