64 years old. Today indoor trainer: Low cadence 60 rpm. 216 Watts for over one hour. AV HR 122 bpm. Four years ago I managed 213 Watts for 20 minutes, Av Hr 155 bpm with a high cadence. It's the slow cadence, high resistance combination that's worked for me. Hydration has done it's part if I weigh more when I get off the machine. No need to bust a gut. Averaged 2hrs/day since mid 2021.
I'm 64 and have raced xc mountain bikes over two decades with success in my age group. By mere chance, I have trained much of it as described in this excellent discussion. I will also add that as I age, I've increased recovery time after hard efforts, and now, on my more frequent days off, I simply take a walk around the block. My times and average speed on the trails has been consistent to my times 5 yrs. ago. As I have ventured into gravel this past year, I'm exploring more carbohydrates and training strategies. Thanks for this great discussion!!
@CarnivoreDMD I found and read the paper. Thank you for the information. My latest physical blood work showed my A1c at pre-diabetic level. In my late 40's I did a protein diet to loose weight. I was xc skiing at the time and felt fantastic. I have cut back since my physical on carbs throughout the day.
Brilliant 😎As with all the best podcasts this needs to be relistened to. this is the best Seiler interview I've heard. Not needing a recovery ride is an absolute golden nugget of training advice 👍👍
@@bmp713 My experience is, that the lower end helps me better, than the upper end of this zone. So when I go above the 70 percent, it feels harder, but when I am under 70 percent it feels like I can run that speed forever, even when this is very slow. So it is almost in the regeneration zone but still zone 2. But I do that on my long runs. I prefer to run / cycle or swim faster within the week days.
@@bmp713 Well, listen to your body and do the statistics, keep an eye on the heart rate when you're riding pretty easy but still on a brisk pace on those long rides. You go over it, and you feel going from the green zone into the yellow zone, it's different. For me it's about 76% of MHR.
That would be some of the best advise I've heard in relation to scheduling Intensity with Zone 2 throughout the week. The operative word " reproportioning " training sessions to optimise physiological adaptions. The time I've wasted hammering over the years and feeling perpetually fatigued thinking that was the only way!!! 😢Needed this advise years ago. New way forward now though.😊
@@TheRoadmanPodcast Me too. Flying in February, and the wheels falling off in June. I could have achieved a lot more if I knew how to train as a youngster.
This was a great listen. Reducing intensity was something I had to do myself, and it felt kind of like admitting defeat to begin with. What it did was in fact to increase enthusiasm to train.
Knife Sharpening analogy - Too much intensity or lack of rest enables you to quickly sharpen the blade however it won't hold its edge long when in use. By building a solid foundation (Zone 1&2) you create efficiency and a thicker blade which is more resilient to work. It then just needs sharpening periodically with intensity.
Nah, it's really not that. If the premise is you train 6-8 hours a week and someone looks at your training and says 'Well you do sweet spot efforts most of this and that's why you plateaued' the take away shouldn't be 'The problem is I was cycling too hard' - you were cycling too easy. Professional athletes are doing a ton more training. If you decide to try and fix your 6-8 hour week by putting in less effort and focusing on this so-called 'zone 2' your performance will just get worse because they're pointing at the 'rest day' and 'zone 2' but the actual secret is the 2 days of hard intensity you weren't doing and you're likely still not to do if you fall for the ridiculous notion the zone 2 training is going to magically improve your fitness compared with the zone 3 you were already doing. It won't. Lastly it makes zero sense to follow a trend based on some dodgy results from professional cycling which have been 'explained' by the 2 word 'zone 2' - as silly as it was trying 'high cadence' because Carmichael put that in a book during the Lance Armstrong era. Did any of you doing 'high cadence' get Lance Armstrong's performance yet?
@michael1 if you're doing 6-8 hours of zone 3 a week I'd definitely say you would benefit from doing at least one of your sessions in zone 2! You'll get fast doing zone 3, but you'll have no top end or endurance past about 2 hours!
@@richardmiddleton7770 If you're doing 6-8 hours a week then why do you need anything past 2 hours? I think perhaps you hit upon the first question you have to ask - what are you training for. If it's to ride for a long time slowly, well then obviously all you need to do is to ride for a long time slowly - and the training for 100 miles is around 8 weeks starting from scratch. But that won't make you fast - and, somewhat obviously if you start riding for 3-4 hours 3 times a week you can't do that in 6 hours - no matter what training plan you follow. That said, it really isn't the case that your only way of improving aerobic endurance is lots of low intensity. HIIT improves aerobic endurance too
Lotsa gold in this interview. Last 10 weeks seen more legit/lasting improvements than previous 10 months tbh. Removed the dev to mean rides/middle-ground workouts and worked wonders. "Train in a way that'll leave you healthy and inspired to train again the next day" (allow you to train again tomorrow, and the next day and the next week and month after that). Daily z2 has been life-changing (either low z2 if db day/mid z2, which should never tire one out for next day), PLUS a weekend 1.5-3 hr endurance ride at LT1, AND two 30-min high-intensity intervals spaced evenly throughout week (I run on track and do a Zwift race).
I’m a runner, and my Z2 measurement sessions look like this: I get on the treadmill with the chest strap on and start running at my previously known “easy pace”. I want to be breathing in for 5 strides and out for 5 strides while watching my HR on my phone screen. I go for 60 minutes or 90 minutes keeping it below 127 bpm which is 70% of my max HR. Once I complete 60 or 90 minutes, I see what my average pace is for the session. I’ll do this at least once every 2 weeks on the same treadmill, same time of day, with same rest from the night before. It took me 3 months to go from 9:10 average mile pace to 7:50 average mile pace. Once my running season is over and I “re-check” where I am, I have usually lost about half of the gains--not sure why physiologically, The point is….thats how I track my gains. On a bike I think it could be average power over a 60-90 minute session….but an objective way to measure.
I'm 51, made a lot of running on Z2 during 2 years, made 9 marathons on that period (PB 2H51m40s in Berlin this year), almost didn't ride bikes during that period, last week made the NYC marathon and decided to stop running for 2 to 3 weeks, so I'm doing XC bike but mostly on flat roads, and I'm not getting above 120 bpm when riding... Heard a lot of interviews with Prod Seiler and for sure it was a game changer for me.
Wow! That has to be the most physically, mentally and spiritualy inspiring life changing coaching i have ever witnessed! My heartfelt compliments to Dr Seller and RoadMan! Bruno.
I got back into cycling after a dozen years of severe health issues that left me unable to exercise. I was only riding or running short distances the first year back a couple times a week. Last October I forced myself to ride every day for 30 days. Got a HR monitor and realized I was riding Tempo the whole time even into Threshold. Felt terrible. In November my FTP was 170. Just tested early October 236 while still dealing with some chronic health issues. I suspect I gained 65-70 watts in 1 yrs time. I do almost exactly what Seiler suggests here. Though I do 5 days 2 90 minute sessions, 1 2-4 hr ride. And typically a threshold day and an VO2 day. It works. I suspect if I was able to add in some weight training my results would be even better.
I don't overthink, one hour z2 is upper end, 2hrs is mid z2, 4hrs is going in low z2. Never do recovery rides. Never. If I need active rest I go walk or swim leisurly.
reco rides are often counterproductive, most of us go too hard. Best thing i did was not ride mondays or fridays. Purposeful training, your breakdown should be a lightbulb moment for a lot of people. Unless they're stuck in loops of ego training......
@@MattiasThyrBob on. IMO a recovery ride over 40 mins should be treat as a zone 2 ride. I also think that although zone 2 is the bedrock of the cycling workout unless some very high intensity is also done, and recovery taken, then you'll have results that do not reflect your true ability.
Guys , the 320/40w zone2 was taken out of context, he explained afterwards (in the same video) that was a normalised number in monaco hills and mountains vs his HR and that most likely in a flat zone he would be arround 280/90 Still high but not 340. Fun fact , he knew anything and everything, except he didnt remembered his vo2max hahah (greg lemond-liked that) 😂
When you said “Greg Lemond liked that”, obviously you’re being sarcastic. But are you insinuating that Greg felt it was suspicious… or just humorously predictable that Tadej didn’t reveal his VO2 max?
@@RB-xv4si Its a joke on how Greg always calculated the capacity of people based on how high was his vo2max , the fact he doesn't say it makes sense in terms of tactics, but ..... If he know he is a freak and has a 95+ why should he fear to release the number ? Its a little bit of a showman ;) but he knew the data he just decided not to give... Imagine he says 80, and everyone would explode hahahah😅😅😂
I regularly do 2-4h rides in upper Z2, which equals 260-270 Watts for me (75Kg) i would say 70-80% of my rides are in that effort region and I attribute most of my bike strength to these rides.
Lemond trained the same way! Nothing new these athletes are gifted!!! I only train 6 hours a week non racer and close to 60 my zone 2 is hr 120-130 bpm - 110 - 130 watts on a good. I not imagine if I had the time to train 15 hours a week.
Pogacar said his 5 hour zone 2 rides would be at around 290-300 watts. The numbers he mentioned higher than that were high zone 2 that he does uphill on hilly zone 2 rides home in Monaco, since he cant really hold the zone downhill. Still monster watts, but 340 watts for 5 hours is not low zone 2 even for Pogacar, and he never said that.
Yeah, I agree. There’s no way it’s his zone 2. Based on lactate I presume but this suggests it’s not all about lactate because he admitted to being extremely fatigued after this. He did say it but he also said he has to rest the next day. If you can’t ride the next day after a zone 2 ride I don’t think it’s your zone 2. On top of that, what zone is he in during the tour for 21 days if he can’t ride after a 5 hour zone 2 ride? Something is amiss.
Great points raised, for me it’s also motivation thing. It’s easy to jump on a quick 1h ride on Strava or outside but for a 2-4 hour ride, the motivation is hard to get so I do a lot of shorter training sessions over the week
Yeah it’s well known that high volume at zone 2 power will produce more mitochondria. However on the flip side HIT increases the size of these cells. So time crunched athletes can achieve a similar effect (improved efficiency) by adopting HIT strategy. This of course is used in conjunction with appropriate recovery periods
As far as I know CGM's aren't instant, as mentioned they are measuring using the fluid, not blood (approx 20min lag if I recall correctly). The other hard part with all of this is depending on life stress, or temp/humidity, what you ate, drank, cortisol levels, muscle fiber types (percentages) and the list goes on
For a guy with a full time job and family who is struggling to average 200 watts on a 2 hour ride, the last part of this interview is some very valuable information.
@@TheRoadmanPodcastI was having a pretty hard time with cortisol. I cut out caffeine and that helped a bunch. I even started taking cortisol blockers. It never was a problem when I was younger but it became a huge problem about 5 or 6 years ago.
Great podcast. I would love to know what technology can be used to measure ventilation accurately in the field. The Frontier X device supposedly measures ventilation. But at present, it can’t broadcast the data to a third party device like a Garmin, where we can see it in real time.
I’ve only ever missed cycling for 4 months in the last 45 years, and that was due to a broken pelvis and cracked vertebrae’s in spine, a rain jacket is your cheapest bad weather option and from under 15 euros too…..
Just for your reference CGM's aren't real time. There's a 5min delay between the CGM's reading and your actual blood glucose level CGM's are useful for tracking trends and trying to manipulate your fuelling to prevent the dreaded "Bonk".
In multiple podcasts, he's mentioned "we're looking at ventilation" and has hinted about a chest sensor to measure it. Who's "we" and where can I keep tabs on the progress of this?
From my experince this might not apply to hobby athletes. I mean, when you train twice a day, it makes sense to reduce the training stress and do many workouts in zone 1 or 2. But when you train only every second day, the stress is not that much of a problem and you can do one zone 2 training and one intervall session and maybe one threshold training without any problems and only when their is a fourth day, it can be another zone 2 session. It will be more of a pyramid approach than an 80/20 approach.
Dr. Seiler and Anthony, I have a HR question (questions)... My heart rate is extremely low...resting HR of 30-32, "walk-around" HR of 40-45, exercise HR of generally 80-90, even in High Zone 2... even a good climbing effort (at 9300- 10,000 feet elevation) at 4-5 watts per kg only yields about 110-115!! Should I be concerned or just accept the fact that 110-115 is in fact almost 4 X my resting HR, compared to someone who trains at 170-180 BPM with a resting HR of 50-60? Curious... I've tried numerous HR straps and bands...all record the same data. Cheers, Kim Wrinkle Silverton, CO
I would be very concerned about this. You likely have an enlarged heart. The signal depolarization causing beats can become off eventually leading to a heart attack or fibrillation event. Paddles would need to be used to shock and reset the heart rhythm. Your arrhythmia is a very bad case of bradycardia and may suggest an enlarged heart or a heart with scaring is possible too. See a doctor and have a full work up asap
if you are not in favour of recovery rides when we watch profesionalls after races riding their stationairy bike (or even before TTs) is that ride a requirement or benefit for an amateur and in which cases?
I think we will soon see that the very few athletes, both male and female that have greatly distanced their competitors in their respect sports have discovered a way to increase mitochondrial density, mitochondrial function, longevity and efficiency. They are either doing this with either pharmaceuticals and/or dietary supplements. Of course improved training science, equipment and diet are also playing smaller roles. I just sense a re-spin of the early blood doping and EPO years beginning in the 1970's where we saw similar sort of feats in most endurance sports. Also, doesn't CO2 play some role in mitochondrial function? So it's not all about O2. If my memory serves me right CO2 is the agent that shuttles O2 in mitochondria? If I were to ever be a competitive endurance athlete again I would integrate free diving into my training. Maybe on my “recovery” days. But at the age of 65 I believe that's all behind me now.
He didn't clearly answer the question about 8hrs pw and time in zone. If you have as little as 6hrs a week to train do you still do just 10% (36mins) high intensity? Or is there a min duration of high intensity work that you should do regardless of overall training time pw? I'd imagine 2hrs high intensity pw on a 6hr schedule would be getting close to optimal? So as a rule, how about min 2hrs pw high intensity regardless of overall time?
My problem isn't lactate but the increased demand for oxygen because I've got alot of fat and muscle in the wrong place that takes the oxygen I need for my legs
To me it sounds like everybody conflates pros schedules to average untrained people. Steven alluded to this in another podcast but basically said, depending on fitness, you basically can have 1-2 intensity sessions per week from 1-3hrs... after that youre pretty much neurologically cooked and then everything after that should just be adding on Z2 (or Z1 in 3 zone LTTP model). If I train 3 hrs its a VO2 (4x4min) and LT (2x20min) and then the rest zone 2... if I train 10hrs its similar intensity but a lot more zone 2.
While I enjoy listening to Seiler, from what I've seen, I'm not sure this is what pro cyclists actually do. Some doing lots of tempo, and some doing hard days 4/5 days a week. Charlie Carbs and Cycling does a good video on this!
The confusion in Pogahar’s statement is the definition of the zones. Most bicycling apps and head units use a 6 Zone model, where as Seiler uses a 3 Zone model. Critical Power for Zone 2 is based on cardiac drift, the longer one holds the static HR, the more fit one becomes.
Pogis uses the 6 zone model they even mentioned that in the chat. His zone 2 would be seilers zone 1. Zone 2 is not tempo, threshold, vo2, or neuromuscular.
I stopped listening after 12' since I'm pretty sure Peter Attia was refering to zone 2 in a 6-7 zone training reference just as Strava, Zwift, Garmin, etc... are using. instead of 3.
While rest days open your time up to do other things, you still have to remember it's supposed to be a rest day. Taking my daughter anywhere to do anything is definitely not 'relaxing'! Also, paying bills online? WTF! That's NOT relaxing! Doing DIY, extra cleaning/tidying, shopping, also NOT relaxing!
he runs super high to compared to most though (so young still). I felt if i put 150bpm most would assume it was a zone 3 conversation not a z2 conversation
This topic - exactly this topic and managing its life and death consequences - is the daily work of intensive care doctors. Yup, it is. In intensive Care with people on ventilators suffering from severe sepsis, this physiological principle, ‘Oxygen delivery’, is at the heart of managing the sepsis until antibiotics and the immune system eradicate the infection that causes the sepsis. In sepsis, the lungs often work less well. And maximum cardiac output is reduced. And the patient may have a lower haemaglobin, so the amount of oxygen that can be stuffed into a ml of blood, even in perfect conditions, is reduced. Whilst the bigger arteries may be dilated, at the tissue end (capillaries) the flow of blood to right beside the cells is also reduced. Then, in sepsis, the ability of the mitochondria to have oxygen delivered to them within the cell and then to utilise the oxygen to create energy in an aerobic way is also reduced in sepsis (all cells, not just muscle cells, have mitochondria). Oh, and muscle cells have stuff in them, near the mitochondria which is like haemaglobin with a very similar, but not identical, function: it’s called myoglobin which is why muscle cells are called myocytes. A patient with severe sepsis on ITU is riding a sometimes month long marathon functioning at the edges of maximum oxygen delivery and utilisation: interesting and not often mentioned. So, intensive care doctors spend most of their time considering the same problem: the endurance athlete on their bike is dealing with all the matters discussed today. Consider having a chat to a YT familiar critical care physiological specialist: several produce channels and would be good in your pod.
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BTW stop promoting doping through Pogacar example. 👍
Plus besoin de se fader les longueurs en video : gemini et hop… 🎉
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This Roadman Podcast video features an interview with Dr. Stephen Seiler, a renowned sports scientist, who explains how cyclists can ride faster at lower heart rates. **Here are the key takeaways:** * **Endurance and Oxygen:** Endurance hinges on the body's ability to transport oxygen to muscles. A healthy heart, efficient lungs, and a high number of mitochondria in muscles are crucial. * **Polarized Training:** Seiler advocates for polarized training, with 80-90% of training time spent at low intensity (zone 2) and 10-20% at high intensity. * **Intensity vs. Duration:** For high-intensity sessions, it's important to find a balance between the intensity and duration of intervals. * **Recovery:** Adequate recovery periods are essential for clearing lactate and replenishing energy stores. * **Cadence and Torque:** Training at low cadence and high torque can activate more muscles without excessive fatigue. * **Importance of Rest:** Rest days are crucial to allow the body to recover and adapt. * **Technology and Training:** Seiler cautions against over-reliance on technology and encourages athletes to listen to their bodies. * **Common Mistakes:** The most common mistake is training too hard and too often, which can lead to overtraining and injuries. In essence, the video emphasizes the importance of balanced training, with a majority of low-intensity sessions and well-structured high-intensity sessions, to improve endurance and speed on the bike
Yep. 100% depending on your weight, between 40-60 grams of carbs per hour should be fine. I’ve a great interview coming up next week with uri Carlson about fuelling
You don’t need much more than 60g per hour on a z2 ride. Don’t need anything other than water if you’re riding less than 90 mins (assuming you’re eating a balanced diet)
@@TheRoadmanPodcastyou don’t need any carbs on any ride less than 90minutes, but is this assuming that you are going to have a carb heavy meal straight after the ride? I never get to eat a decent meal after my rides because I am always riding into work. When I get home I stuff the face though.
my Garmin Training Status, and VO2max calculators absolutely ABHOR zone-2 training. i've been doing Z2 now for 3 weeks, and i went from a constant "productive" status, and 58 VO2max, down to a solid "unproductive", and 48 and ever declining. When before i was doing 2 days/week high intensity with 3-4 days recovery. almost no Z2 at all i think this whole "zone-2" stuff is a giant conspiracy. i think the Z2 conspiracists even post in YT comments section saying how much they've improved. I'm calling SHENNANIGANS!!!
I use Garmin for pace, total time, and Heart rate…..that’s it. And the HR is coming from a chest strap because wrist only is unreliable and inaccurate. Garmin despises Z2. I do a bulk of Z2 training and I do a lot of trail running….Garmin hates both. It’s actually hilarious to me that I’ll start a Z2 trail run and 10 minutes in Garmin says my performance index is a minus 6 for the session. My VO2 max on Garmin will be in the toilet…..but then when I do one 5k max effort session, performance is a +12 and VO2 max goes up by 10 points in the one session. The Garmin numbers are garbage, but I can assure you that for my body, Z2 is not. I did a PR 5k (my over age 40 PR) doing zero speed work and only doing massive amounts of Z2.
This is a vitally important discussion and very insightful. …One aspect which wasn’t covered, which I think is overlooked in terms of zone 2 / green zone training, is that the zone 2 training window shrinks dramatically as we age. The gap between resting heart rate and max heart rate reduces on average by one bpm each year as we age. Therefore by say, age 50+ the zone 2 window is significantly smaller than say at age 20. For example if zone 2 is 65-75% of max HR calculated by 220 - age, at age 20 zone 2 is 130-150 bpm (zone 2 window of 20 bpm; whereas 220-age at age 55, zone 2 is 107-123 bpm a zone 2 window of only 16 bpm! ) A zone 2 window of only 16 bpm maxing at 123bpm is extremely difficult to stay within on any normal training ride and would certainly not facilitate anywhere near 340 watts in zone 2 !!. Which is why I suggest that maybe after 50 years old, zone 2 might also need to include zone 3? Some further discussion about zone 2 / green zone training for over 50’s would be very welcome.
Staying in the green zone at age 55 is almost impossible on any ride with any sort of hills (99% of rides). The impact of age on one’s ability to keep it in zone 2 is rarely discussed. A long green zone/zone 2 ride for me is almost impossible to achieve. Zone 3 yes all day long. …Does zone 2 (green zone) become zone 3 when we get older?
@@wcjourney might be worth comparing the actual load between the two types of rides. You might have long periods of extremely low power/HR on descents.
64 years old. Today indoor trainer: Low cadence 60 rpm. 216 Watts for over one hour. AV HR 122 bpm. Four years ago I managed 213 Watts for 20 minutes, Av Hr 155 bpm with a high cadence. It's the slow cadence, high resistance combination that's worked for me. Hydration has done it's part if I weigh more when I get off the machine. No need to bust a gut. Averaged 2hrs/day since mid 2021.
I'm 64 and have raced xc mountain bikes over two decades with success in my age group. By mere chance, I have trained much of it as described in this excellent discussion. I will also add that as I age, I've increased recovery time after hard efforts, and now, on my more frequent days off, I simply take a walk around the block. My times and average speed on the trails has been consistent to my times 5 yrs. ago. As I have ventured into gravel this past year, I'm exploring more carbohydrates and training strategies. Thanks for this great discussion!!
Beware the aged athlete diabetic. 😮 Less carb not more as it’s about blood glucose maintenance NOT muscle glycogen. See Noakes et al.
@CarnivoreDMD I found and read the paper. Thank you for the information. My latest physical blood work showed my A1c at pre-diabetic level. In my late 40's I did a protein diet to loose weight. I was xc skiing at the time and felt fantastic. I have cut back since my physical on carbs throughout the day.
Brilliant 😎As with all the best podcasts this needs to be relistened to. this is the best Seiler interview I've heard. Not needing a recovery ride is an absolute golden nugget of training advice 👍👍
Great interview. Stephen Seiler is excellent and you asked him excellent questions. Many thanks.
I've been doing a lot of z2 training for the last 8 weeks... really starting to see the benefits. Trust the process.
you know it
Which Zone 2 heart rate percent are you using for such good results?
I hear anywhere from 60-80% max HR but thats a very wide range.
@@bmp713 I'm a big fan of a zone 2+, just barely above conversational pace and for me personaly that is 72-78% intensity of my FTP.
@@bmp713 My experience is, that the lower end helps me better, than the upper end of this zone. So when I go above the 70 percent, it feels harder, but when I am under 70 percent it feels like I can run that speed forever, even when this is very slow. So it is almost in the regeneration zone but still zone 2. But I do that on my long runs. I prefer to run / cycle or swim faster within the week days.
@@bmp713 Well, listen to your body and do the statistics, keep an eye on the heart rate when you're riding pretty easy but still on a brisk pace on those long rides. You go over it, and you feel going from the green zone into the yellow zone, it's different. For me it's about 76% of MHR.
Magnificent interview. Damn, so much sense in this. Thanks Prof. Seiler.
That would be some of the best advise I've heard in relation to scheduling Intensity with Zone 2 throughout the week. The operative word " reproportioning " training sessions to optimise physiological adaptions. The time I've wasted hammering over the years and feeling perpetually fatigued thinking that was the only way!!! 😢Needed this advise years ago. New way forward now though.😊
I felt the exact same. I used to hammer away with high intensity on evening sessions after college and was perpetually fatigued
@@TheRoadmanPodcast Me too. Flying in February, and the wheels falling off in June. I could have achieved a lot more if I knew how to train as a youngster.
Pick your parents wisely. And cut back on the smokes and whiskey.
Child labor is under rated. Max effort whilst hieghest growth hormone
Gene expression is inherited in larger part from grandparents.
“The key to success is picking the right parents”. Keith Sutorius
I’ll drink to that!
How do you pick parents? You can’t. All you can do is give up if the gene 🧬 pool is no good.
That last minute resonates with me. I'm an old man whos been training and racing for 40 years. I wish i knew what i know now about training then.
This was a great listen. Reducing intensity was something I had to do myself, and it felt kind of like admitting defeat to begin with. What it did was in fact to increase enthusiasm to train.
That was fantastic from start to finish. I wasn't planning on watching all 51 minutes, but I was glued. Thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Excellent, excellent interview! Seiler gives a lot of good, sensible advice, which happens to be science-based.
A lot of good old fashioned common sense in this pod cast, great content.
Knife Sharpening analogy - Too much intensity or lack of rest enables you to quickly sharpen the blade however it won't hold its edge long when in use. By building a solid foundation (Zone 1&2) you create efficiency and a thicker blade which is more resilient to work. It then just needs sharpening periodically with intensity.
love that
Good way to look at it. A blade needs to be balanced as well.
Nah, it's really not that. If the premise is you train 6-8 hours a week and someone looks at your training and says 'Well you do sweet spot efforts most of this and that's why you plateaued' the take away shouldn't be 'The problem is I was cycling too hard' - you were cycling too easy. Professional athletes are doing a ton more training. If you decide to try and fix your 6-8 hour week by putting in less effort and focusing on this so-called 'zone 2' your performance will just get worse because they're pointing at the 'rest day' and 'zone 2' but the actual secret is the 2 days of hard intensity you weren't doing and you're likely still not to do if you fall for the ridiculous notion the zone 2 training is going to magically improve your fitness compared with the zone 3 you were already doing. It won't. Lastly it makes zero sense to follow a trend based on some dodgy results from professional cycling which have been 'explained' by the 2 word 'zone 2' - as silly as it was trying 'high cadence' because Carmichael put that in a book during the Lance Armstrong era. Did any of you doing 'high cadence' get Lance Armstrong's performance yet?
@michael1 if you're doing 6-8 hours of zone 3 a week I'd definitely say you would benefit from doing at least one of your sessions in zone 2! You'll get fast doing zone 3, but you'll have no top end or endurance past about 2 hours!
@@richardmiddleton7770 If you're doing 6-8 hours a week then why do you need anything past 2 hours? I think perhaps you hit upon the first question you have to ask - what are you training for. If it's to ride for a long time slowly, well then obviously all you need to do is to ride for a long time slowly - and the training for 100 miles is around 8 weeks starting from scratch. But that won't make you fast - and, somewhat obviously if you start riding for 3-4 hours 3 times a week you can't do that in 6 hours - no matter what training plan you follow.
That said, it really isn't the case that your only way of improving aerobic endurance is lots of low intensity. HIIT improves aerobic endurance too
Lotsa gold in this interview. Last 10 weeks seen more legit/lasting improvements than previous 10 months tbh. Removed the dev to mean rides/middle-ground workouts and worked wonders. "Train in a way that'll leave you healthy and inspired to train again the next day" (allow you to train again tomorrow, and the next day and the next week and month after that).
Daily z2 has been life-changing (either low z2 if db day/mid z2, which should never tire one out for next day), PLUS a weekend 1.5-3 hr endurance ride at LT1, AND two 30-min high-intensity intervals spaced evenly throughout week (I run on track and do a Zwift race).
Without doubt one of your best guests! Very engaging discussions😊
Part 1 of this discussion is worth a watch too
I’m a runner, and my Z2 measurement sessions look like this:
I get on the treadmill with the chest strap on and start running at my previously known “easy pace”. I want to be breathing in for 5 strides and out for 5 strides while watching my HR on my phone screen. I go for 60 minutes or 90 minutes keeping it below 127 bpm which is 70% of my max HR. Once I complete 60 or 90 minutes, I see what my average pace is for the session. I’ll do this at least once every 2 weeks on the same treadmill, same time of day, with same rest from the night before. It took me 3 months to go from 9:10 average mile pace to 7:50 average mile pace. Once my running season is over and I “re-check” where I am, I have usually lost about half of the gains--not sure why physiologically, The point is….thats how I track my gains. On a bike I think it could be average power over a 60-90 minute session….but an objective way to measure.
I'm 51, made a lot of running on Z2 during 2 years, made 9 marathons on that period (PB 2H51m40s in Berlin this year), almost didn't ride bikes during that period, last week made the NYC marathon and decided to stop running for 2 to 3 weeks, so I'm doing XC bike but mostly on flat roads, and I'm not getting above 120 bpm when riding... Heard a lot of interviews with Prod Seiler and for sure it was a game changer for me.
Wow! That has to be the most physically, mentally and spiritualy inspiring life changing coaching i have ever witnessed! My heartfelt compliments to Dr Seller and RoadMan! Bruno.
Tim “el Tractor” 🚜 Declercq, Happy that he is mentioned. Has great Impact within a team and pure primal strength! + A wonderful human being!
Best piece of information on youtube in a long while. Sweet and succinct. Nothing new, but reframed in a digestible manner
I really enjoyed listening to this man.
I got back into cycling after a dozen years of severe health issues that left me unable to exercise. I was only riding or running short distances the first year back a couple times a week. Last October I forced myself to ride every day for 30 days. Got a HR monitor and realized I was riding Tempo the whole time even into Threshold. Felt terrible. In November my FTP was 170. Just tested early October 236 while still dealing with some chronic health issues. I suspect I gained 65-70 watts in 1 yrs time. I do almost exactly what Seiler suggests here. Though I do 5 days 2 90 minute sessions, 1 2-4 hr ride. And typically a threshold day and an VO2 day. It works. I suspect if I was able to add in some weight training my results would be even better.
Absolutely fantastic!
Outstanding podcast! 👋
Thank you
Brilliant advice for training and life. Love that this is a philosophy podcast and a book club too. 👏
Great video! Thanks!!
Some great reminders again here, thanks
Quality information.
Thank you 🙏
I don't overthink, one hour z2 is upper end, 2hrs is mid z2, 4hrs is going in low z2. Never do recovery rides. Never. If I need active rest I go walk or swim leisurly.
reco rides are often counterproductive, most of us go too hard. Best thing i did was not ride mondays or fridays. Purposeful training, your breakdown should be a lightbulb moment for a lot of people. Unless they're stuck in loops of ego training......
We’ve always said that recovery (zone 1) rides are junk miles. Train with purpose even zone 2. Do it purposely
never do a recovery ride over 45min has always been my rule
@@cyc00000 and group rides are the worst for ego training
@@MattiasThyrBob on. IMO a recovery ride over 40 mins should be treat as a zone 2 ride. I also think that although zone 2 is the bedrock of the cycling workout unless some very high intensity is also done, and recovery taken, then you'll have results that do not reflect your true ability.
Fantastic sesh. Common sense training. And most certainly, the rest day once a week is so important for recovery mentally and physically.
Guys , the 320/40w zone2 was taken out of context, he explained afterwards (in the same video) that was a normalised number in monaco hills and mountains vs his HR and that most likely in a flat zone he would be arround 280/90
Still high but not 340.
Fun fact , he knew anything and everything, except he didnt remembered his vo2max hahah (greg lemond-liked that)
😂
@@TC-ik9kn yeh the Pog isn’t going to tell you his VO2 Max. That’s classified!
When you said “Greg Lemond liked that”, obviously you’re being sarcastic. But are you insinuating that Greg felt it was suspicious… or just humorously predictable that Tadej didn’t reveal his VO2 max?
@@RB-xv4si Its a joke on how Greg always calculated the capacity of people based on how high was his vo2max , the fact he doesn't say it makes sense in terms of tactics, but ..... If he know he is a freak and has a 95+ why should he fear to release the number ? Its a little bit of a showman ;) but he knew the data he just decided not to give... Imagine he says 80, and everyone would explode hahahah😅😅😂
I regularly do 2-4h rides in upper Z2, which equals 260-270 Watts for me (75Kg) i would say 70-80% of my rides are in that effort region and I attribute most of my bike strength to these rides.
Lemond trained the same way! Nothing new these athletes are gifted!!! I only train 6 hours a week non racer and close to 60 my zone 2 is hr 120-130 bpm - 110 - 130 watts on a good. I not imagine if I had the time to train 15 hours a week.
Pogacar said his 5 hour zone 2 rides would be at around 290-300 watts. The numbers he mentioned higher than that were high zone 2 that he does uphill on hilly zone 2 rides home in Monaco, since he cant really hold the zone downhill. Still monster watts, but 340 watts for 5 hours is not low zone 2 even for Pogacar, and he never said that.
"I can do around 320 - 340 watts in Zone 2"
Didn’t Pog talk about z2 as a lt1 in dr Inigo’s 3-zone model though?
Yeah, I agree. There’s no way it’s his zone 2. Based on lactate I presume but this suggests it’s not all about lactate because he admitted to being extremely fatigued after this. He did say it but he also said he has to rest the next day. If you can’t ride the next day after a zone 2 ride I don’t think it’s your zone 2. On top of that, what zone is he in during the tour for 21 days if he can’t ride after a 5 hour zone 2 ride? Something is amiss.
@@odd-deviceslisten to it again. His z2 is 140- 150hr with a 205 max. That's exactly where actual z2 would be.
@@OUTDOORS55 I heard what he said but why would he be cooked after a zone 2 ride and need to follow it with a rest day because he also said that.
Great points raised, for me it’s also motivation thing. It’s easy to jump on a quick 1h ride on Strava or outside but for a 2-4 hour ride, the motivation is hard to get so I do a lot of shorter training sessions over the week
Nice content thank you. 🙏
Thanks for tuning in
Absolutely right
Imagine Stephen Seiler relying on his Garmin watch to tell him how to train… I laughed out loud when he talked about his „just a watch“! 😂😂
Seiler is fantastic
Another awesome video!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Yeah it’s well known that high volume at zone 2 power will produce more mitochondria. However on the flip side HIT increases the size of these cells. So time crunched athletes can achieve a similar effect (improved efficiency) by adopting HIT strategy.
This of course is used in conjunction with appropriate recovery periods
Terrific... 2 tums up 🙂
Pogi said his HR in zone 2 is about 145 in the days when he’s tired and up to 155 when he’s fresh, his max HR is probably very high, well above 200.
As far as I know CGM's aren't instant, as mentioned they are measuring using the fluid, not blood (approx 20min lag if I recall correctly). The other hard part with all of this is depending on life stress, or temp/humidity, what you ate, drank, cortisol levels, muscle fiber types (percentages) and the list goes on
Brilliant
For a guy with a full time job and family who is struggling to average 200 watts on a 2 hour ride, the last part of this interview is some very valuable information.
I wish i'd have had this information when i was getting started in cycling. Conversations like this one are exactly why I started this podcast
@@TheRoadmanPodcastI was having a pretty hard time with cortisol. I cut out caffeine and that helped a bunch. I even started taking cortisol blockers. It never was a problem when I was younger but it became a huge problem about 5 or 6 years ago.
@@TheRoadmanPodcastNow I am going to be diligent to add those long rides. I was guilty of the pretty hard 1 hour rides wvery day.
@tommyt8857 what age are you now ? (If you don’t mind me asking)
@@TheRoadmanPodcastI’ll be 50come March
Great podcast. I would love to know what technology can be used to measure ventilation accurately in the field. The Frontier X device supposedly measures ventilation. But at present, it can’t broadcast the data to a third party device like a Garmin, where we can see it in real time.
In the UK & Ireland it's the weather in the last 4 years that's the holding back factor.
nope, with indoor apps like Zwift, the weather isnt a barrier anymore.
I’ve only ever missed cycling for 4 months in the last 45 years, and that was due to a broken pelvis and cracked vertebrae’s in spine, a rain jacket is your cheapest bad weather option and from under 15 euros too…..
Just for your reference CGM's aren't real time. There's a 5min delay between the CGM's reading and your actual blood glucose level CGM's are useful for tracking trends and trying to manipulate your fuelling to prevent the dreaded "Bonk".
So - to clarify - it sounds like Z2 in Seiler’s model includes zones 2 *and* 3 in the 5/7 zone model, and zone 3 is zones 4 and up?
In multiple podcasts, he's mentioned "we're looking at ventilation" and has hinted about a chest sensor to measure it. Who's "we" and where can I keep tabs on the progress of this?
Still fighting the zones. Garmin has 7! I do 80% Z2 but upper Z2 BUT Garmin breaks it down as Zone 3 training. I think that’s incorrect due to my LT1.
I think of zone 3 as zone 2. Tempo al day every day!
From my experince this might not apply to hobby athletes. I mean, when you train twice a day, it makes sense to reduce the training stress and do many workouts in zone 1 or 2. But when you train only every second day, the stress is not that much of a problem and you can do one zone 2 training and one intervall session and maybe one threshold training without any problems and only when their is a fourth day, it can be another zone 2 session. It will be more of a pyramid approach than an 80/20 approach.
What about a six hour week of training ?
Dr. Seiler and Anthony,
I have a HR question (questions)...
My heart rate is extremely low...resting HR of 30-32, "walk-around" HR of 40-45, exercise HR of generally 80-90, even in High Zone 2... even a good climbing effort (at 9300- 10,000 feet elevation) at 4-5 watts per kg only yields about 110-115!!
Should I be concerned or just accept the fact that 110-115 is in fact almost 4 X my resting HR, compared to someone who trains at 170-180 BPM with a resting HR of 50-60?
Curious...
I've tried numerous HR straps and bands...all record the same data.
Cheers,
Kim Wrinkle
Silverton, CO
I would be very concerned about this. You likely have an enlarged heart. The signal depolarization causing beats can become off eventually leading to a heart attack or fibrillation event. Paddles would need to be used to shock and reset the heart rhythm. Your arrhythmia is a very bad case of bradycardia and may suggest an enlarged heart or a heart with scaring is possible too. See a doctor and have a full work up asap
Not normal. See a dr asap.
You made me watch a 50 min podcast 😅🎉
hi is zone 3 vo2 pease?
if you are not in favour of recovery rides when we watch profesionalls after races riding their stationairy bike (or even before TTs) is that ride a requirement or benefit for an amateur and in which cases?
do varicose leg veins negatively affect a cyclists endurance/performance?
I think we will soon see that the very few athletes, both male and female that have greatly distanced their competitors in their respect sports have discovered a way to increase mitochondrial density, mitochondrial function, longevity and efficiency. They are either doing this with either pharmaceuticals and/or dietary supplements. Of course improved training science, equipment and diet are also playing smaller roles. I just sense a re-spin of the early blood doping and EPO years beginning in the 1970's where we saw similar sort of feats in most endurance sports. Also, doesn't CO2 play some role in mitochondrial function? So it's not all about O2. If my memory serves me right CO2 is the agent that shuttles O2 in mitochondria? If I were to ever be a competitive endurance athlete again I would integrate free diving into my training. Maybe on my “recovery” days. But at the age of 65 I believe that's all behind me now.
He didn't clearly answer the question about 8hrs pw and time in zone. If you have as little as 6hrs a week to train do you still do just 10% (36mins) high intensity? Or is there a min duration of high intensity work that you should do regardless of overall training time pw? I'd imagine 2hrs high intensity pw on a 6hr schedule would be getting close to optimal? So as a rule, how about min 2hrs pw high intensity regardless of overall time?
My problem isn't lactate but the increased demand for oxygen because I've got alot of fat and muscle in the wrong place that takes the oxygen I need for my legs
To me it sounds like everybody conflates pros schedules to average untrained people. Steven alluded to this in another podcast but basically said, depending on fitness, you basically can have 1-2 intensity sessions per week from 1-3hrs... after that youre pretty much neurologically cooked and then everything after that should just be adding on Z2 (or Z1 in 3 zone LTTP model). If I train 3 hrs its a VO2 (4x4min) and LT (2x20min) and then the rest zone 2... if I train 10hrs its similar intensity but a lot more zone 2.
Watching this is funny as i just did 5x3min vo2max intervals at 310w and at the end i was gassed :P
While I enjoy listening to Seiler, from what I've seen, I'm not sure this is what pro cyclists actually do. Some doing lots of tempo, and some doing hard days 4/5 days a week. Charlie Carbs and Cycling does a good video on this!
Train on an ebike like the pros and regulate heart rate with the motor for 5-6 hrs.
The confusion in Pogahar’s statement is the definition of the zones. Most bicycling apps and head units use a 6 Zone model, where as Seiler uses a 3 Zone model. Critical Power for Zone 2 is based on cardiac drift, the longer one holds the static HR, the more fit one becomes.
Pogis uses the 6 zone model they even mentioned that in the chat. His zone 2 would be seilers zone 1. Zone 2 is not tempo, threshold, vo2, or neuromuscular.
@ Pogi wasn’t confused, but using three types of scales for defining levels is for the average Joe. Please, educators stick to one scale.
Who saw 340 watts in Z2 for hours? You have Strava link?
Peter atiea with tadej pogacar
Peter did not see it either… can somebody put that strava link?
I don’t think I’ve ever heard someone speak about sports science with a southern draw
I stopped listening after 12' since I'm pretty sure Peter Attia was refering to zone 2 in a 6-7 zone training reference just as Strava, Zwift, Garmin, etc... are using. instead of 3.
Garmin has a Breathing Datafield
the secret is in the 'juice'
While rest days open your time up to do other things, you still have to remember it's supposed to be a rest day. Taking my daughter anywhere to do anything is definitely not 'relaxing'! Also, paying bills online? WTF! That's NOT relaxing! Doing DIY, extra cleaning/tidying, shopping, also NOT relaxing!
If you're talking about Watts in zone 2, then you know nothing about Zone 2 training and Periodization.
My z2 power is the same as pogi, but I weigh 93kg😂
🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌
Great content like always but misleading tumbail, he said his heart rate was 150 and shimano powermeter so 320 watts 😂😂😂
That style of zone 2 is the very edge of z2. Borderline z3. I would believe that the majority of his training is easier than that. 250w-300w 🤔
he runs super high to compared to most though (so young still). I felt if i put 150bpm most would assume it was a zone 3 conversation not a z2 conversation
Even if he is coached by Javier Sola now i think his mind is still in the San Milan z2 😅
It’s called EPO.
This topic - exactly this topic and managing its life and death consequences - is the daily work of intensive care doctors. Yup, it is. In intensive Care with people on ventilators suffering from severe sepsis, this physiological principle, ‘Oxygen delivery’, is at the heart of managing the sepsis until antibiotics and the immune system eradicate the infection that causes the sepsis. In sepsis, the lungs often work less well. And maximum cardiac output is reduced. And the patient may have a lower haemaglobin, so the amount of oxygen that can be stuffed into a ml of blood, even in perfect conditions, is reduced. Whilst the bigger arteries may be dilated, at the tissue end (capillaries) the flow of blood to right beside the cells is also reduced. Then, in sepsis, the ability of the mitochondria to have oxygen delivered to them within the cell and then to utilise the oxygen to create energy in an aerobic way is also reduced in sepsis (all cells, not just muscle cells, have mitochondria). Oh, and muscle cells have stuff in them, near the mitochondria which is like haemaglobin with a very similar, but not identical, function: it’s called myoglobin which is why muscle cells are called myocytes. A patient with severe sepsis on ITU is riding a sometimes month long marathon functioning at the edges of maximum oxygen delivery and utilisation: interesting and not often mentioned. So, intensive care doctors spend most of their time considering the same problem: the endurance athlete on their bike is dealing with all the matters discussed today. Consider having a chat to a YT familiar critical care physiological specialist: several produce channels and would be good in your pod.
BTW stop promoting doping through Pogacar example. 👍
Too many advertisement interruptions
Low zone 2 is not the same has high zone 2 ...
One question, if you train bike 1h and then go for 1h run, does that count into one 2h session?
Get an ebike, works great. 80bpm going up 15 degree inclines.
Dude reminds me of Christian Bale
Plus besoin de se fader les longueurs en video : gemini et hop… 🎉
This Roadman Podcast video features an interview with Dr. Stephen Seiler, a renowned sports scientist, who explains how cyclists can ride faster at lower heart rates.
**Here are the key takeaways:**
* **Endurance and Oxygen:** Endurance hinges on the body's ability to transport oxygen to muscles. A healthy heart, efficient lungs, and a high number of mitochondria in muscles are crucial.
* **Polarized Training:** Seiler advocates for polarized training, with 80-90% of training time spent at low intensity (zone 2) and 10-20% at high intensity.
* **Intensity vs. Duration:** For high-intensity sessions, it's important to find a balance between the intensity and duration of intervals.
* **Recovery:** Adequate recovery periods are essential for clearing lactate and replenishing energy stores.
* **Cadence and Torque:** Training at low cadence and high torque can activate more muscles without excessive fatigue.
* **Importance of Rest:** Rest days are crucial to allow the body to recover and adapt.
* **Technology and Training:** Seiler cautions against over-reliance on technology and encourages athletes to listen to their bodies.
* **Common Mistakes:** The most common mistake is training too hard and too often, which can lead to overtraining and injuries.
In essence, the video emphasizes the importance of balanced training, with a majority of low-intensity sessions and well-structured high-intensity sessions, to improve endurance and speed on the bike
lol this is how mark allen trained in the 80s.
That's not true, he would never release his true numbers, maybe at the end of his career :)
Werewolf 🐺
Should I fuel on a long Zone 2 ride?
Yep. 100% depending on your weight, between 40-60 grams of carbs per hour should be fine. I’ve a great interview coming up next week with uri Carlson about fuelling
@TheRoadmanPodcast What if I'm a bit of a fatty?
You don’t need much more than 60g per hour on a z2 ride. Don’t need anything other than water if you’re riding less than 90 mins (assuming you’re eating a balanced diet)
@@TheRoadmanPodcastyou don’t need any carbs on any ride less than 90minutes, but is this assuming that you are going to have a carb heavy meal straight after the ride?
I never get to eat a decent meal after my rides because I am always riding into work. When I get home I stuff the face though.
Drugs. It’s drugs people
More specifically sarms?
my Garmin Training Status, and VO2max calculators absolutely ABHOR zone-2 training. i've been doing Z2 now for 3 weeks, and i went from a constant "productive" status, and 58 VO2max, down to a solid "unproductive", and 48 and ever declining.
When before i was doing 2 days/week high intensity with 3-4 days recovery. almost no Z2 at all
i think this whole "zone-2" stuff is a giant conspiracy. i think the Z2 conspiracists even post in YT comments section saying how much they've improved.
I'm calling SHENNANIGANS!!!
I use Garmin for pace, total time, and Heart rate…..that’s it. And the HR is coming from a chest strap because wrist only is unreliable and inaccurate.
Garmin despises Z2. I do a bulk of Z2 training and I do a lot of trail running….Garmin hates both. It’s actually hilarious to me that I’ll start a Z2 trail run and 10 minutes in Garmin says my performance index is a minus 6 for the session. My VO2 max on Garmin will be in the toilet…..but then when I do one 5k max effort session, performance is a +12 and VO2 max goes up by 10 points in the one session. The Garmin numbers are garbage, but I can assure you that for my body, Z2 is not. I did a PR 5k (my over age 40 PR) doing zero speed work and only doing massive amounts of Z2.
Hmmmm.... there's more to it than that LOL.
This is a vitally important discussion and very insightful. …One aspect which wasn’t covered, which I think is overlooked in terms of zone 2 / green zone training, is that the zone 2 training window shrinks dramatically as we age. The gap between resting heart rate and max heart rate reduces on average by one bpm each year as we age.
Therefore by say, age 50+ the zone 2 window is significantly smaller than say at age 20.
For example if zone 2 is 65-75% of max HR calculated by 220 - age, at age 20 zone 2 is 130-150 bpm (zone 2 window of 20 bpm; whereas 220-age at age 55, zone 2 is 107-123 bpm a zone 2 window of only 16 bpm! )
A zone 2 window of only 16 bpm maxing at 123bpm is extremely difficult to stay within on any normal training ride and would certainly not facilitate anywhere near 340 watts in zone 2 !!.
Which is why I suggest that maybe after 50 years old, zone 2 might also need to include zone 3? Some further discussion about zone 2 / green zone training for over 50’s would be very welcome.
Staying in the green zone at age 55 is almost impossible on any ride with any sort of hills (99% of rides). The impact of age on one’s ability to keep it in zone 2 is rarely discussed. A long green zone/zone 2 ride for me is almost impossible to achieve. Zone 3 yes all day long.
…Does zone 2 (green zone) become zone 3 when we get older?
My legs and body recover faster from harder rides with sustained climbs in zone 4-5. Zone 2 flat and my body is wrecked. Fat vs glucose is my guess.
@@wcjourney might be worth comparing the actual load between the two types of rides. You might have long periods of extremely low power/HR on descents.
Just get better gearing. Slow down and stay in z2
What’s your age?
@@3TZZZ 53