Thanks for the video. I learnt this style when I was a young man, directly from Master Liu Hsu-Chi. In fact, I believe that I was one of the last pupils to be taught this style personally by Master Liu before his other commitments forced him to delegate instruction in it to his more advanced students. Sadly he is no longer with us. He was a small, lightly built man, and I am over 6 feet tall, but I well remember being propelled 360 degrees through the air with one sweep of his arm. That direct experience and contact with such skill and ability is sadly lacking these days.
It is indeed a great style as whole the power of the circle is unreal I'm not a master by any means , my grappling has improved 10 fold as well as power thanks
His student, Cheng Tinghua had a tragic ending. He was shot from the back by a German soldier. Later on, his student Sun Lutang questioned about the purpose of training kungfu when guns are easily available, which shows how much that incident had an impact on him.
@@nathanwatches Exactly!! Gung Fu is the best! Martial Arts skills has so much more soul & will always surpass the gun spiritually by far. The gun is soulless! Just because the gun is an unfair advantage doesnt mean one should stop the practice of Martial Art. To me, it is mostly always a coward that holds a gun.
The ultimate purpose of martial arts training is to become spiritual. That's why the internal arts become superior as one gets older, Baguazhang, Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, Yiquan, etc. Develop Spirit and Awareness to the highest levels. Awareness to immediately recognize danger/dangerous situation/dangerous person. Spirit example - high level Spirit does not found themselves in a bar at 1am in the morning, or in a bar ever for that matter. These types of things a high level Spirit does not engage in. Low level Spirit will only engage these types of activity to test his martial skill, ie., I know Kung-fool so I will go into a bar, drink and look to get into a fight on purpose, but I won't start it nonsense.
@@hightreestess in practical sense I wouldn't abandon guns either if I live in US for self protection. Guns and gung fu can enhance each other. It's like practicing gung fu swords, spears, knives etc. It's a weapon. I would practice kung fu and guns but only if I live in places where bad guys uses guns.
the founder of Aikido went to China and trained. Aikido is very circular as well so it looks like he might of been influenced by Bagua/Pakua. Aikido is not as old as Bagua of course.
The Taoist was at Ermei Mountain. This area is the training place of many famous anti-ching fighters. This Taoist developed a circular fighting system called 12 Ermei Zhang. A temple of this school is still standing. See Sergio Ladorola and his research on the roots of Wing Chun. While in Yong Chun, Ermei, comparing White Crane to Wing Chun he learned about a Taoist system 12 Ermei Zhang. Additionally, Sun Lu Tang also gives a history in his works of Xing Yi Quan and Ba Gua Zhang on the origins of his arts.
I practiced White Crane with Yang Jwing Ming, his senior that did White Crane classes told me not to let go of my Wing Chun skills. The two systems had so many things in common it was nuts! My Wing Chun Sifu also thought Wing Chun had links to Xing Yi.
@@civilsavage6337 Ermei Mountain is the link. In Yin Fu Ba Gua there is a separate system called Hammer First. This system is identical to Xing Yi Quan (5 Element Fist portion), without spear footwork, just normal stepping, so pre JiJi Neng, after which JiJi Neng added the spear stepping footwork and changed the name.
@@TheJadedSkeptic This statement is useless. Taoists and Bhuddists live in the same communities. Ermei Mountain is a martial mountain, a place of learning martial skill, therefore attractive to every group.
I remember reading about his life in RW Smith's book on Pa-Kua, and your narration basically followed the story I am familiar with (and a few added details) you left out the story of his death. He was pronounced dead and placed in a wooden coffin on the way to the funeral his students were unable to lift the coffin from the ground. A voice came from the box saying. "None of you have even a tenth of my skill", at which point he breathed his last and the coffin was lifted easily. Who knows the veracity of this story but it is part of his legend. Thank you for highlighting a truly mysterious martial arts master. The comments section to this video is phenomenal! It's amazing how much knowledge has been gathered here! I learned about walking the circle many years ago but I'm a terrible student! I still remember some of it and practice what I still know. I learned Tai Chi and practiced for many years form and pushhands, never was very good but perhaps my practice will keep me in my dotage!
Mostly accurate, except it's not really the case that Ba Gua is un-related to other styles. The style called Ba Fan Shou is pretty clearly the antecedent to both Ba Gua Zhang and Ba Pan Zhang. Dong's innovation was the circular footwork and applying the principles to any style.
@@spinningdragontao It's complicated, but there is a style called Yue Jia Quan that looks like it could be a common ancestor to both Xing Yi and Ba Fan Shou (also called FanZiQuan). Since both styles claim Yue Fei as the progenitor of the style, it seems likely that there is a connection there. Maybe not direct ancestors, but cousins. Here is a video where you can see similarities to both XingYi and BaGua- ua-cam.com/video/PsvluBu1YaU/v-deo.htmlsi=PZUwrSKLEfjTKWB5
@@yew2oob954 Hey, thanks for your reply. As you correctly point out, a good hypothesis needs to be falsifiable. I eagerly await your well-researched and thought out alternative hypothesis. I hope I'm wrong because that means that I will learn something I didn't know.
@@ambulocetusnatans Not a hypothesis...reality. You claim that "The style called Ba Fan Shou is pretty clearly the antecedent to both Ba Gua Zhang and Ba Pan Zhang" but offer zero timeline or history. The circular footwork of Bagua Zhang literally comes from Taoist meditation. There are many styles that try to claim connection to "Bagua Zhang" because it was a famous style.
A quality tale thank you there are so many stories from the past that have substance Chinese masters are extremely secretive but when they tell a story about something it has meaning
That's not exactly how it is taught. The party was actually a serving tea ceremony where bagua uses a large tea pot like a Shaolin tea pot for strength training. The circle walking methods no one really knows where they came from however its probably from a bagua mirror which they used to ward off evil sprits. As for the life story it seemed pretty close to ehat has always been around. Thanks for the historical rendering thats a big part of martial arts and accomplishments in the arts.
Yes, the story as related to me was that Dong Hai Chuen was injured in a fight, and fled to a Taoist temple. There he recuperated doing the circle walk, as taught to him by a Taoist. Later he incorporated his circular walk into his previous martial arts. That make the most sense. Since he simply repeated that process for his closest students. That's why there was no Ba Gua Zhang complete system to teach. It also explains why he only taught these principle to advanced students.
Most of the legend is unsubstantiated, of course, but it does seem that there were records indicating he was an accomplished Long Fist instructor, and he shared PaQua only with his senior pupils, but he shared only basic moves and principles and each of them, also accomplished martial artists themselves, adapted the principles to what was comfortable for them, which is why there is no Dong Hai Chuan form. There is an older martial art called Pa Pan Chang, and it does share similar moves to PaQua (thanks to the magic of UA-cam, you can find videos!). It's very possible that there was no complete "Pa Qua Chang" before Dong Hai Chuan, and/or that he and his students were thrashing out this new form form combining the Pa Pan basics with their own strengths. But we will probably never know!
Pa Pan Zhang was proven to be false history, read my book History Of the Chinese Internal Martial Arts for all the info about this style and where it really came from. 40 years of research.
By some strange series of events I was in a restaurant in Beijing (2012) owned by a Kung Fu and Calligraphy master who imparted on me much wisdom in the few short hours that I happened to meet him. His restaurant was like nature inside with a stream, plants and flowers and beautiful vases in the walls. Maybe someone from there will know of this restaurant.
Great video; well-presented and interesting. Two points, though. There are a lot more internal arts than the big three and Baguazhang does share techniques and features with other arts, albeit less. ;)
There's very little in Baguazhuang that I haven't seen in other martial arts that were common in Zhili where he grew up. Meihuaquan has circle walking & a few similar arm positions (plus was occasionally called Baguaquan), and I've seen videos of Dachengquan that have some of the same arm positions, but on very different footwork. If I had to guess, I'd guess that it was an amalgamation of several different martial arts and not some secret style. The rural martial arts in Zhili were likely a lot more physically demanding than people in Beijing wanted to practice. However, it's probably impossible to backdate specific movements to any given place and time for the rural martial arts, as the people who practiced them didn't have the same opportunity to write and publish illustrated training guides. If something in BGZ is similar to something another martial art that was present in Dong's time in Zhili, is it the source of the BGZ technique, is it copied from BGZ, is it randomly similar or do they both come from a common ancestral style? It may be impossible to know.
The understanding I have from books I have read and learning a little of all three major internal arts and some other lesser known ones is that they all stem from these three.
@@learnchinesenow I would argue that Tongbeiquan, as one example, is an internal art and may have even influenced Taijiquan. If I could go back in time ten years I would have studied BGZ. :)
I don't know about "most mysterious." I'd say Bai Mei (Bak Mei) may be even more famous and more mysterious. There's quite a few conflicting stories and tales about his intentions, allegiance and what happened to him after the Shaolin Temple burned in the early 1720s.
Bak Mei isn't that mysterious. Everyone knows where it came from and there are many very similar systems. BM just happens to have a cool story/myth that sells really well to Kung Fu toddlers in the west.
Good video. One point needs clarification. There are more than three internal styles of Chinese martial arts. You should have said there are three popular or commonly known internal styles.
I really, really wish that you would credit the film clips that you use in these videos. I think it would be easy to add the title and year at the end of your transcript, or as a note under the description.
I once came across an expert who was interviewed for a martial arts magazine and he is probably the only master of the Vibrating Palm which sends Qi or Chi into a person's torso, shattering his vital organs without leaving any external bruises or visible injuries. Being a Traditional Chinese Medicine doctor, he used the technique to send Qi as well as to give a Qi massage to heal the vital organs of his patients. He was based in Taiwan and only took in one student due to the extreme danger of someone abusing this martial arts technique.
yes, i remember him too and found that article from Black Belt Magazine during the lockdowns, sadly, with a little research, i found that he had shuffled off his mortal coil.
Unfortunately it is NOT more likely that he learnt from a "mythical sage", this type of thing was commonly stated in CMA history but it's completely unlikely. In fact, when comparing Bagua to Ba Fan Shou, the correlation is very close. The art of a result of Dong learning his local martial arts growing up, which included Ba Fan Shou, along with other practices such as circle walking which in itself was not a martial practice. Additionally, he would have had to have been a eunuch to be in Prince Su's mansion. The penalty for him and anyone who helped him get the position without being a eunuch was death. Not likely that he wasn't a eunuch. If you are interested in the actual history of the art, visit my channel where I have done numerous videos on bagua Zhang history, some of which you have used in your video, but decided not worthy of mentioning...
Hi Byron, as a courtesy to you I have pinned a comment with your Dong Haichuan video so people can check it out. The clips I used from your channel were just clips from a documentary from China you uploaded, so I credited them as the original documentary. If I had wanted to use your original stuff, would have sent you a message to ask permission. This video was really just focusing on the “he learned it from a Taoist” story. I know some more practically minded people in the martial arts world might think its nonsense, but I just think its a cool story. But yeah, I love your channel man and I hope you are not mad at us. You might not remember, but we know each other, you taught me San Ti Shi, many years ago. Im on vacation now but when I get back I’ll send you a message on Facebook. Ben
@@learnchinesenow those videos of mine were translated with added information by myself. They weren't simply reposts of Chinese documentaries, hence I made the comment I did. Hope you are well, chat soon
this is only one reference to the art hidden and the percusor style to baqua zhang. if i recall Tai Chi MAGAZNE, might have done an article on this. my recall is very sporadic even on my specialties like martial arts and dogs. it might well have been written elsewhere. for those who need to delve deeper to inrease their info/skill you ca find it using the internet now. i didn't say it would be easy. if you're not used to doing deep research on chinese boxing it might waste time you should reserve for training.
🤔It is always possible that there are bits and pieces of Chinese martial arts that pre-date what is known as “Chinese civilization” going back to a previously existing super civilization
This was a good video thanks for sharing the only thing I question is Baguazhang and the I-Ching connection. Cause when Dong hai chuan first taught Bagua there were only 3 palm methods single Palm change, double Palm change and smooth body Palm change! From my understanding his disciples linked the 64 hexagrams to the system as they created their own unique styles JMO
If revealing secrets of the arts, then reminder, any position taken is instantly change to another, for guessing if your good enough in the arts. Practice b the rules, if knowing the rules.
The most logical story, is that he and his first disciples developed Bagua Zhang together. He Yin Fu and Chang Tinghua being the top contributors. The footwork/circle walking comes from the Dragon gate sect. Bagua is essentially Shaolin Louhan, done on a circle. Its obvious when you look at the art.
Question is, why do it in a circle ? If it's been modified because of the philosophy, then 'essentially' no longer applies, except that what we have is essentially Taoist.
Yes! more martial arts vids please! perhaps one about the blind woman behind southern praying mantis? I actually joined a bagua school in my city, but it was a scam, so now I'm studying 7 star mantis, I still wish there was an actual bagua school in my city, as I really want to learn it
@@Samael580 wow, I'm really sorry you got scammed too. The pakua school in my city is over priced, plus they basically just teach karate and just call it kung fu. Even the uniform is just a karate gi. Are your practising anything right now?
"No one really knows where he learned it" He got the basics from Zen monks and developed it by himself. Thats like saying no one knows who taught Bruce Lee JKD.
Interesting! My thoughts are that the Shaolin monks are always finding styles to export into China. Dong was tasked with learning and teaching a circular motion to import into Taoist communities. The other 2 internal not mentioned are Tai Chi and Bajiquan. The purpose was to help pave the way for critical thinking while dealing with challenges. The origins of martial arts will always find its’ roots at Shaolin but the notion Dong just came up with this is hyperbole. There is an interesting channel about Wudang Kung Fu with some Bagua masters featured.
@@lukekohen No, that is not correct. First, Shaolin Kung Fu is but a small part of the hundreds of Chinese styles in existence, and even in the case of Shaolin, only a tiny fraction of it was inspired by India (even if the Bodhidharma legend was true, and most likely it isn't). Most of the Shaolin techniques were developed locally. And all the Taoist systems (as is the case of Baguaquan) are 100% Chinese, with 0 connection to Buddhism or India. In reality, Martial arts of all sorts were developed independently all over the World, including India and China. The idea that everything of importance comes out of India is an idea of Indian nationalism, but not the truth.
coiling cloud hands technique the probable origin of his eight trigrams palm but id buy the doists thhey have always had alot of hidden masters over there and ive heard of coiling cloud cave and that doist before
All of Dongs students were already masters of other styles of Kung-Fu. The mystery is what did Do ngs Bagua look like ?Cheng Ting Hua knew Chinese fast wrestling and Kung-Fu and it influenced Cheng's Bagua .
We need to understand that a martial art is not a case, it's not a box, it's simply a body movement, it could've been called anything really, the movements would've remained the same. It's only what the body allows to do with it's innumerable articulations, up to a limit, that a lot of us, ok, a few of us, manages to explore and maybe, master. Just move that body.
On a parallel and less mysterious but still interesting sidenote is Brazilian jujitsu -which has as its roots being judo and Indian wrestling ie east Indian and not as much as classic Japanese jujitsu as you might think -even though the founder of judo was a jujitsu master and then also there is the movement form known as “gymnastics natural” it has also been incorporated in bits and pieces into Brazilian jujitsu which has a lot of these advanced ideas in it of not using muscular tension force but relying on the action reaction of elastic storage to elastic return
@@Samael580 I agree with your observation. At one level, at the macro scale, what I observe happening is, because Brazilian jujitsu is soo respected by many, ie Brazilian jujitsu and the Gracie family being credited with creating The UFC and MMA, that now people are noticing all these forms of western wrestling 🤼♀️ That can actually compete with it ie BJJ, and noticing that western wrestling is just as good really. Western wrestling was overlooked before as a competent martial art 🥋. But people that know, such as yourself, are seeing the pattern. What I find interesting is that it would seem that there are more holds and restraints, that are practical in western wrestling, than in Brazilian jujitsu and it is these holds and restraints that are truly nonviolent, more so than in AiKiDo.(thus maybe western wrestling would be more useful to teach to law-enforcement than anything else) The proper use of a word can help the mind understand a concept and of course some people try and Weaponize that process through propaganda,,,but what is missing in all of this ie Western wrestling , BJJ , and aikido is “Pedagogy”, which means “theory of curriculum”…ie how to teach something, when to introduce it, the individualizing for somebody, and the way you teach kids versus the way you teach adults.(whenever I have observed kids being taught western wrestling, there is a lot of yelling at high-volume and insults, which may work for high testosterone boys. And then whenever I have observed adults being taught aikido, there’s a lot of whispering and extreme gentility. At one level I guess it’s the market and demographics, but it would seem that there is room for amalgams/hybridization‘s of all this, in order to Tees out and Tweez out the similarities and differences. ) I guess, it is Brazilian jujitsu now, that has the flag of respect, that will continue to evolve and absorb everything else, with for example NOGI BJJ , ie not waring the kimono 👘 thus No Gi BJJ is wrestling. Maybe this will put even judo out of business🤷♂️. Maybe 25 years from now, there will be only grappling with a kimono and grappling without one and all other forms of grappling will be absorbed into those.🤔
No he really was a enuch there is a old magazine publication called the Pa Kua Journal from around the late 90s early 2000s it's all about Bagua and one the magazines there is a photo of Dong with his pants down it's real. There is another type of Bagua it's orgins r not from Dong, I talk about it if interested. Yeah I have some other rare styles I researched them all I agree he is the most mysterious and I lived and train in Beijing and up in the mountains no one has experience what I have experienced so glad to see you teaching Chinese I practice this way myself 😊
The Kungfu Master. Starring Ou Lihao, Bruce Leung & Canti Lau. It's a film lasting less than 2 hours compiled from a Chinese television series, which had over 30 episodes. I consider the compilation poorly done. Very disappointing. I brought on a Chinese video website around 2015 or 2016. 😢v
@@learnchinesenow I cannot speak for *all* other "internal" arts but Wuzuquan (五祖拳), Luohan Ruyiquan (羅漢 如意拳) and Wuijiquan (無極拳) do not trace their roots back to those three.
Thank you. Be so kind as to do a video on Chang Chun-feng the great Hsing Yi Ch'uan master who is like my great-great-grandfather in our lineage. All the best to you and yours. Laoshr #60 Ching Yi Kung Fu Association
@@Chronicskillness Also known colloquially as handcuff style: “There is a story of when Xingyi Grandmaster Guo Yunshen (1829-1898 郭雲深) was imprisoned for accidentally killing an opponent in a duel. By some accounts, he was shackled in handcuffs and leg irons, limiting his ability to practice. He resolved to focus on a short Xingyi technique that his fetters would allow, a powerful basic attack called Beng Quan or crushing fist (崩拳). He allegedly used a half step to accommodate his leg shackles. After three years, he was sprung from jail, and in that time, he had mastered Beng Quan so consummately that he built his reputation on it. It was said that his “half-step Beng Quan could strike anyone under heaven (ban bu beng quan da yu tian xia 半步崩拳打天下). Grandmaster Guo’s tale inspired a Jet Li movie, his 2001 sleeper, The One. This was a Sci-Fi flick about multiple incarnations across multiple dimensions, casting Jet multiple roles setting him up to fight his ultimate opponent - himself. This Hollywood production that was panned by American critics, but for martial artists, The One worked on a deeper level. Jet’s evil incarnation, Gabriel Yulaw, used the linear attacking methods of Xingyi. Jet’s good incarnation, Gabe Law, deploys the circular strategies of Bagua.”
A lot of truth here. Bagwa was the first Grandmaster many many many years ago and thus the system, which is incredibly vast and older than Kalaripayattu, was named after him. Yes he was in the mountains for some time and yes the I Ching (book of changes), Feng Shui and the Yin Yang are all related to this practice. It is incredible for health and being centered but yes the martial side of it is supreme although most people don't know how to use it in combat. That being said it doesn't have to be used exactly the way it's practiced since it makes the body's joints, muscles, fascia, skeleton and internal strength grow with time
Hi can you tell us what kung fu style we see in the school fight scene in fist of legend with jet li? Yes ofcause it's theater wushu but wushu display different styles.
So the Character Chen Zhen in fist of legend was supposedly a student of Huo Yuanjia, who did Mizongyi. Whether the fight on screen is authentic, I don’t know. Lots of joint locks (qin na).
Thanks for the video. I learnt this style when I was a young man, directly from Master Liu Hsu-Chi.
In fact, I believe that I was one of the last pupils to be taught this style personally by Master Liu before his other commitments forced him to delegate instruction in it to his more advanced students.
Sadly he is no longer with us.
He was a small, lightly built man, and I am over 6 feet tall, but I well remember being propelled 360 degrees through the air with one sweep of his arm.
That direct experience and contact with such skill and ability is sadly lacking these days.
“Being propelled 360 degrees” can be interpreted in many different ways.
It is indeed a great style as whole the power of the circle is unreal I'm not a master by any means , my grappling has improved 10 fold as well as power thanks
Very interesting video
Do you teach what you have learned currently?
Can you tell me a bit more about this master and his lineage and current students please? I am very interested to learn more. Thanks!
His student, Cheng Tinghua had a tragic ending. He was shot from the back by a German soldier. Later on, his student Sun Lutang questioned about the purpose of training kungfu when guns are easily available, which shows how much that incident had an impact on him.
A similar thing happened to one of Wong Fei Hung’s kids and they came to the same conclusion.
guns doesn't improve ones body mind and spirit, in fact it enables one to kill so easily that at the hands of a wrong person can cause so much harms.🙏
@@nathanwatches Exactly!! Gung Fu is the best! Martial Arts skills has so much more soul & will always surpass the gun spiritually by far. The gun is soulless! Just because the gun is an unfair advantage doesnt mean one should stop the practice of Martial Art. To me, it is mostly always a coward that holds a gun.
The ultimate purpose of martial arts training is to become spiritual.
That's why the internal arts become superior as one gets older, Baguazhang, Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, Yiquan, etc.
Develop Spirit and Awareness to the highest levels.
Awareness to immediately recognize danger/dangerous situation/dangerous person.
Spirit example - high level Spirit does not found themselves in a bar at 1am in the morning, or in a bar ever for that matter. These types of things a high level Spirit does not engage in.
Low level Spirit will only engage these types of activity to test his martial skill, ie., I know Kung-fool so I will go into a bar, drink and look to get into a fight on purpose, but I won't start it nonsense.
@@hightreestess in practical sense I wouldn't abandon guns either if I live in US for self protection. Guns and gung fu can enhance each other. It's like practicing gung fu swords, spears, knives etc. It's a weapon. I would practice kung fu and guns but only if I live in places where bad guys uses guns.
the founder of Aikido went to China and trained. Aikido is very circular as well so it looks like he might of been influenced by Bagua/Pakua. Aikido is not as old as Bagua of course.
No wonder they are both whack
Fascinating. Thank you. The fluidity of the Martial art caught my eye. 100%
The Taoist was at Ermei Mountain. This area is the training place of many famous anti-ching fighters.
This Taoist developed a circular fighting system called 12 Ermei Zhang. A temple of this school is still standing.
See Sergio Ladorola and his research on the roots of Wing Chun. While in Yong Chun, Ermei, comparing White Crane to Wing Chun he learned about a Taoist system 12 Ermei Zhang.
Additionally, Sun Lu Tang also gives a history in his works of Xing Yi Quan and Ba Gua Zhang on the origins of his arts.
I practiced White Crane with Yang Jwing Ming, his senior that did White Crane classes told me not to let go of my Wing Chun skills. The two systems had so many things in common it was nuts! My Wing Chun Sifu also thought Wing Chun had links to Xing Yi.
@@civilsavage6337 Ermei Mountain is the link.
In Yin Fu Ba Gua there is a separate system called Hammer First. This system is identical to Xing Yi Quan (5 Element Fist portion), without spear footwork, just normal stepping, so pre JiJi Neng, after which JiJi Neng added the spear stepping footwork and changed the name.
Ermei Mountain is Buddhist mountain.
@@TheJadedSkeptic This statement is useless. Taoists and Bhuddists live in the same communities.
Ermei Mountain is a martial mountain, a place of learning martial skill, therefore attractive to every group.
😊Great information ☯️
I remember reading about his life in RW Smith's book on Pa-Kua, and your narration basically followed the story I am familiar with (and a few added details) you left out the story of his death. He was pronounced dead and placed in a wooden coffin on the way to the funeral his students were unable to lift the coffin from the ground. A voice came from the box saying. "None of you have even a tenth of my skill", at which point he breathed his last and the coffin was lifted easily. Who knows the veracity of this story but it is part of his legend. Thank you for highlighting a truly mysterious martial arts master. The comments section to this video is phenomenal! It's amazing how much knowledge has been gathered here! I learned about walking the circle many years ago but I'm a terrible student! I still remember some of it and practice what I still know. I learned Tai Chi and practiced for many years form and pushhands, never was very good but perhaps my practice will keep me in my dotage!
Great story telling! Thanks.
Ancient china has such amazing Lore 👏
Thank you 👍
Mostly accurate, except it's not really the case that Ba Gua is un-related to other styles. The style called Ba Fan Shou is pretty clearly the antecedent to both Ba Gua Zhang and Ba Pan Zhang. Dong's innovation was the circular footwork and applying the principles to any style.
As I understand it; Xing Yi Monkey is very similar to Ba Gua Chang. Xing Yi being older is likely to have been the precursor. Perhaps :)
@@spinningdragontao It's complicated, but there is a style called Yue Jia Quan that looks like it could be a common ancestor to both Xing Yi and Ba Fan Shou (also called FanZiQuan). Since both styles claim Yue Fei as the progenitor of the style, it seems likely that there is a connection there. Maybe not direct ancestors, but cousins. Here is a video where you can see similarities to both XingYi and BaGua- ua-cam.com/video/PsvluBu1YaU/v-deo.htmlsi=PZUwrSKLEfjTKWB5
Nonsense...just because arts look similar doesn't necessarily make them related.
@@yew2oob954 Hey, thanks for your reply. As you correctly point out, a good hypothesis needs to be falsifiable. I eagerly await your well-researched and thought out alternative hypothesis. I hope I'm wrong because that means that I will learn something I didn't know.
@@ambulocetusnatans Not a hypothesis...reality. You claim that "The style called Ba Fan Shou is pretty clearly the antecedent to both Ba Gua Zhang and Ba Pan Zhang" but offer zero timeline or history. The circular footwork of Bagua Zhang literally comes from Taoist meditation. There are many styles that try to claim connection to "Bagua Zhang" because it was a famous style.
I hope that you cover the origins of the other internal martial arts and the difference between neigong and qigong.
Glad to see you back on the channel!
According to my WuTang/MuDong Taoist kung fu teacher,BaGua is the closest style to it.Internal Taoist martial arts originated from Taoists.
nop. That is more like wuxia fiction.
Excellent video. Very interesting, informative and worthwhile video.
Call it the dance of balance and body movements of avoidance !...
Please do one on the Baji Quan master li Shen Wu. Thank you!🙏
Li Shu Wen.
Yes please 🙏
A quality tale thank you there are so many stories from the past that have substance Chinese masters are extremely secretive but when they tell a story about something it has meaning
Brilliant video and very informative! Please do more, thanks🙏🏻
This is the Martial Arts that got me started in Kung Fu.
That's not exactly how it is taught. The party was actually a serving tea ceremony where bagua uses a large tea pot like a Shaolin tea pot for strength training. The circle walking methods no one really knows where they came from however its probably from a bagua mirror which they used to ward off evil sprits. As for the life story it seemed pretty close to ehat has always been around. Thanks for the historical rendering thats a big part of martial arts and accomplishments in the arts.
Ba Gua started as a circle walking walking meditation practice that was taoist practice as such it strengthened and brought coordination to the body.
Yes, the story as related to me was that Dong Hai Chuen was injured in a fight, and fled to a Taoist temple. There he recuperated doing the circle walk, as taught to him by a Taoist. Later he incorporated his circular walk into his previous martial arts. That make the most sense. Since he simply repeated that process for his closest students. That's why there was no Ba Gua Zhang complete system to teach. It also explains why he only taught these principle to advanced students.
Yes, that seems likely.
Very Good exploration. You have a really good grasp of this area! Makes me wonder if you train. I’d love to see Neigong and Neidan Masters explored.
Beavis: " he said dong."
Thy must use the dong force
"DONG" 😂
I loved this mystery. Great story 👏
Merci pour votre very interesting vidéo et votre very good Chinese prononciation 😓✍🏻👍🙏
Thank you for the information ❤
Nice channel Ben. I tried to find a Bagua Chan master before we crossed paths many moons ago.
👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍Thank You for this story.
Great video I hope you produce more on Chinese martial arts thanks
More Martial art history please!! 😛👍🏽
Most of the legend is unsubstantiated, of course, but it does seem that there were records indicating he was an accomplished Long Fist instructor, and he shared PaQua only with his senior pupils, but he shared only basic moves and principles and each of them, also accomplished martial artists themselves, adapted the principles to what was comfortable for them, which is why there is no Dong Hai Chuan form. There is an older martial art called Pa Pan Chang, and it does share similar moves to PaQua (thanks to the magic of UA-cam, you can find videos!). It's very possible that there was no complete "Pa Qua Chang" before Dong Hai Chuan, and/or that he and his students were thrashing out this new form form combining the Pa Pan basics with their own strengths. But we will probably never know!
Pa Pan Zhang was proven to be false history, read my book History Of the Chinese Internal Martial Arts for all the info about this style and where it really came from. 40 years of research.
Very little is known of him compared to other masters during his time😊
Yes, please do another video.
By some strange series of events I was in a restaurant in Beijing (2012) owned by a Kung Fu and Calligraphy master who imparted on me much wisdom in the few short hours that I happened to meet him. His restaurant was like nature inside with a stream, plants and flowers and beautiful vases in the walls. Maybe someone from there will know of this restaurant.
Thanks so much! Bagua is super fun!
👊🏾😎👍🏼
🙏🏻😇🙏🏾
Thanks for sharing
Originally, it contains only the old three palm, not eight
I loved this episode.
Great video; well-presented and interesting. Two points, though. There are a lot more internal arts than the big three and Baguazhang does share techniques and features with other arts, albeit less. ;)
There's very little in Baguazhuang that I haven't seen in other martial arts that were common in Zhili where he grew up. Meihuaquan has circle walking & a few similar arm positions (plus was occasionally called Baguaquan), and I've seen videos of Dachengquan that have some of the same arm positions, but on very different footwork. If I had to guess, I'd guess that it was an amalgamation of several different martial arts and not some secret style. The rural martial arts in Zhili were likely a lot more physically demanding than people in Beijing wanted to practice. However, it's probably impossible to backdate specific movements to any given place and time for the rural martial arts, as the people who practiced them didn't have the same opportunity to write and publish illustrated training guides. If something in BGZ is similar to something another martial art that was present in Dong's time in Zhili, is it the source of the BGZ technique, is it copied from BGZ, is it randomly similar or do they both come from a common ancestral style? It may be impossible to know.
The understanding I have from books I have read and learning a little of all three major internal arts and some other lesser known ones is that they all stem from these three.
@@learnchinesenow I would argue that Tongbeiquan, as one example, is an internal art and may have even influenced Taijiquan. If I could go back in time ten years I would have studied BGZ. :)
Zhang Shanfeng (who may have not existed), Wong Fei Hung and Huo Yuanjia are martial artist worth studying.
So are yang luchan and his sons yang ban Hao and yang jian hao
Zhang San Feng is the founder of Wudang Sect and the Wudang martial arts which existed until today. Wudang is famous for sword manship and Taiji.
I don't know about "most mysterious." I'd say Bai Mei (Bak Mei) may be even more famous and more mysterious. There's quite a few conflicting stories and tales about his intentions, allegiance and what happened to him after the Shaolin Temple burned in the early 1720s.
Mew Hing (Miu Hin) seems rather more obscure.
Bak Mei isn't that mysterious. Everyone knows where it came from and there are many very similar systems. BM just happens to have a cool story/myth that sells really well to Kung Fu toddlers in the west.
Watched that live action movie in KIX channel years ago
I love this series, please continue/ perhaps a video about the origins of Southern Praying Mantis?
Thank you for this! So interesting.
Excellent video
A very interesting piece of history
Thanks for sharing, . How about Wong Fei Hung?
Excellent 👍😊 information is invaluable!
And Kuo Yun-shen. The "divine crushing fist" deserves a deep dive please.
Thank you.
Great videos . Thank you sir.
"Finally revealed" ? I'm 65, I started Pa Kua (&Hsing I) in 1982, after 5 years of Tai Chi & Wu Shu. Studying for about 10 years.
What is the name of the movie you show clips from in this?
Good video. One point needs clarification. There are more than three internal styles of Chinese martial arts. You should have said there are three popular or commonly known internal styles.
Great video and very interesting.
I really, really wish that you would credit the film clips that you use in these videos. I think it would be easy to add the title and year at the end of your transcript, or as a note under the description.
Thank you dear.....
I once came across an expert who was interviewed for a martial arts magazine and he is probably the only master of the Vibrating Palm which sends Qi or Chi into a person's torso, shattering his vital organs without leaving any external bruises or visible injuries. Being a Traditional Chinese Medicine doctor, he used the technique to send Qi as well as to give a Qi massage to heal the vital organs of his patients. He was based in Taiwan and only took in one student due to the extreme danger of someone abusing this martial arts technique.
yes, i remember him too and found that article from Black Belt Magazine during the lockdowns, sadly, with a little research, i found that he had shuffled off his mortal coil.
Awesome! 😊
Ma Gui was not his disciple. Ma Gui was a disciple of Yin Fu who had the opportunity to train under Dong
Unfortunately it is NOT more likely that he learnt from a "mythical sage", this type of thing was commonly stated in CMA history but it's completely unlikely. In fact, when comparing Bagua to Ba Fan Shou, the correlation is very close. The art of a result of Dong learning his local martial arts growing up, which included Ba Fan Shou, along with other practices such as circle walking which in itself was not a martial practice. Additionally, he would have had to have been a eunuch to be in Prince Su's mansion. The penalty for him and anyone who helped him get the position without being a eunuch was death. Not likely that he wasn't a eunuch. If you are interested in the actual history of the art, visit my channel where I have done numerous videos on bagua Zhang history, some of which you have used in your video, but decided not worthy of mentioning...
Hi Byron, as a courtesy to you I have pinned a comment with your Dong Haichuan video so people can check it out. The clips I used from your channel were just clips from a documentary from China you uploaded, so I credited them as the original documentary. If I had wanted to use your original stuff, would have sent you a message to ask permission. This video was really just focusing on the “he learned it from a Taoist” story. I know some more practically minded people in the martial arts world might think its nonsense, but I just think its a cool story. But yeah, I love your channel man and I hope you are not mad at us. You might not remember, but we know each other, you taught me San Ti Shi, many years ago. Im on vacation now but when I get back I’ll send you a message on Facebook. Ben
@@learnchinesenow those videos of mine were translated with added information by myself. They weren't simply reposts of Chinese documentaries, hence I made the comment I did. Hope you are well, chat soon
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Hi guys, I’m looking for a martial art to pick up. Which one should I take on? Thank you 🙏🏾
errrr....4 internal arts, hsi-i, hsing-i, tai chi, bagua...oh my hsi-i also is better known as lok hup ba fa...
Any art is born from movement. Kung fu is a fighting style born out of the daily work.
1st minute, good pronunciations.-Ernie Moore Jr.
Yang Luchan next please
this is only one reference to the art hidden and the percusor style to baqua zhang. if i recall Tai Chi MAGAZNE, might have done an article on this. my recall is very sporadic even on my specialties like martial arts and dogs. it might well have been written elsewhere.
for those who need to delve deeper to inrease their info/skill you ca find it using the internet now. i didn't say it would be easy. if you're not used to doing deep research on chinese boxing it might waste time you should reserve for training.
Fantastic video. It’s said that he learned the circle walking from the Taoist monks.
Супер спасибо 👍👍👍
One of three internal martial arts
Can you do one about xingyiquan.
I really wish Ba Gua worked. I spent so long looking for someone who could really do these things. It’s too bad.
It works.
🤔It is always possible that there are bits and pieces of Chinese martial arts that pre-date what is known as “Chinese civilization” going back to a previously existing super civilization
Yes, and that may be the case with the Yi Ching and Eight Trigrams too
Who or what this super civilisation might be may I know?
This was a good video thanks for sharing the only thing I question is Baguazhang and the I-Ching connection. Cause when Dong hai chuan first taught Bagua there were only 3 palm methods single Palm change, double Palm change and smooth body Palm change! From my understanding his disciples linked the 64 hexagrams to the system as they created their own unique styles JMO
If revealing secrets of the arts, then reminder, any position taken is instantly change to another, for guessing if your good enough in the arts. Practice b the rules, if knowing the rules.
Nice story
Manage to get behind opponents seems the concept
Disagree on your opinion. There is geometry method used 👨💻☯️
The most logical story, is that he and his first disciples developed Bagua Zhang together. He Yin Fu and Chang Tinghua being the top contributors.
The footwork/circle walking comes from the Dragon gate sect.
Bagua is essentially Shaolin Louhan, done on a circle. Its obvious when you look at the art.
Question is,
why do it in a circle ?
If it's been modified because of the philosophy,
then 'essentially' no longer applies, except that
what we have is
essentially Taoist.
First lesson in martial arts: The one who has no skills, shows no skills! The one who shows no skills has no skills.
Yes! more martial arts vids please! perhaps one about the blind woman behind southern praying mantis? I actually joined a bagua school in my city, but it was a scam, so now I'm studying 7 star mantis, I still wish there was an actual bagua school in my city, as I really want to learn it
What city are you in?
@@Samael580 wow, I'm really sorry you got scammed too. The pakua school in my city is over priced, plus they basically just teach karate and just call it kung fu. Even the uniform is just a karate gi. Are your practising anything right now?
Can you make a video about Li Ching Yuen ?
"No one really knows where he learned it" He got the basics from Zen monks and developed it by himself. Thats like saying no one knows who taught Bruce Lee JKD.
Wow very informative
Did I misspell his name? Guo Yunshen deserves his own video. It should be easy to find information on him. 1829-1898 RIP
part 3..... but actually we mention him in passing as Sun Lutang's teacher. But yeah maybe we can do something in the future
interesting stuff, thanks...
Interesting! My thoughts are that the Shaolin monks are always finding styles to export into China. Dong was tasked with learning and teaching a circular motion to import into Taoist communities. The other 2 internal not mentioned are Tai Chi and Bajiquan. The purpose was to help pave the way for critical thinking while dealing with challenges. The origins of martial arts will always find its’ roots at Shaolin but the notion Dong just came up with this is hyperbole. There is an interesting channel about Wudang Kung Fu with some Bagua masters featured.
The origins of martial arts go back to ancient India, and were brought to China and adapted into shaolin by bodhi dharma
Actually no. The three traditional internal styles are Tàijí/Tai Chi, Bāguà/Pa Kua and Xingyi/Hsing I , not Bājí/Pa Chi Quán/Chuan.
@@lukekohen No, that is not correct. First, Shaolin Kung Fu is but a small part of the hundreds of Chinese styles in existence, and even in the case of Shaolin, only a tiny fraction of it was inspired by India (even if the Bodhidharma legend was true, and most likely it isn't). Most of the Shaolin techniques were developed locally. And all the Taoist systems (as is the case of Baguaquan) are 100% Chinese, with 0 connection to Buddhism or India. In reality, Martial arts of all sorts were developed independently all over the World, including India and China. The idea that everything of importance comes out of India is an idea of Indian nationalism, but not the truth.
Great video
The airbending is based on Bagua.
coiling cloud hands technique the probable origin of his eight trigrams palm but id buy the doists thhey have always had alot of hidden masters over there and ive heard of coiling cloud cave and that doist before
All of Dongs students were already masters of other styles of Kung-Fu.
The mystery is what did Do ngs Bagua look like ?Cheng Ting Hua knew Chinese fast wrestling and Kung-Fu and it influenced Cheng's Bagua .
China has more than three Internal arts. Xing Yi Chuan, Tai Chi Chuan, Ba Gua Zhang, Liu He Ba Fa, Baji Quan, Yiquan.
That is true, but they trace their roots to those three.
We need to understand that a martial art is not a case, it's not a box, it's simply a body movement, it could've been called anything really, the movements would've remained the same. It's only what the body allows to do with it's innumerable articulations, up to a limit, that a lot of us, ok, a few of us, manages to explore and maybe, master. Just move that body.
On a parallel and less mysterious but still interesting sidenote is Brazilian jujitsu -which has as its roots being judo and Indian wrestling ie east Indian and not as much as classic Japanese jujitsu as you might think -even though the founder of judo was a jujitsu master and then also there is the movement form known as “gymnastics natural” it has also been incorporated in bits and pieces into Brazilian jujitsu which has a lot of these advanced ideas in it of not using muscular tension force but relying on the action reaction of elastic storage to elastic return
@@Samael580 I agree with your observation. At one level, at the macro scale, what I observe happening is, because Brazilian jujitsu is soo respected by many, ie Brazilian jujitsu and the Gracie family being credited with creating The UFC and MMA, that now people are noticing all these forms of western wrestling 🤼♀️ That can actually compete with it ie BJJ, and noticing that western wrestling is just as good really. Western wrestling was overlooked before as a competent martial art 🥋. But people that know, such as yourself, are seeing the pattern. What I find interesting is that it would seem that there are more holds and restraints, that are practical in western wrestling, than in Brazilian jujitsu and it is these holds and restraints that are truly nonviolent, more so than in AiKiDo.(thus maybe western wrestling would be more useful to teach to law-enforcement than anything else) The proper use of a word can help the mind understand a concept and of course some people try and Weaponize that process through propaganda,,,but what is missing in all of this ie Western wrestling , BJJ , and aikido is “Pedagogy”, which means “theory of curriculum”…ie how to teach something, when to introduce it, the individualizing for somebody, and the way you teach kids versus the way you teach adults.(whenever I have observed kids being taught western wrestling, there is a lot of yelling at high-volume and insults, which may work for high testosterone boys. And then whenever I have observed adults being taught aikido, there’s a lot of whispering and extreme gentility. At one level I guess it’s the market and demographics, but it would seem that there is room for amalgams/hybridization‘s of all this, in order to Tees out and Tweez out the similarities and differences. ) I guess, it is Brazilian jujitsu now, that has the flag of respect, that will continue to evolve and absorb everything else, with for example NOGI BJJ , ie not waring the kimono 👘 thus No Gi BJJ is wrestling. Maybe this will put even judo out of business🤷♂️. Maybe 25 years from now, there will be only grappling with a kimono and grappling without one and all other forms of grappling will be absorbed into those.🤔
No he really was a enuch there is a old magazine publication called the Pa Kua Journal from around the late 90s early 2000s it's all about Bagua and one the magazines there is a photo of Dong with his pants down it's real. There is another type of Bagua it's orgins r not from Dong, I talk about it if interested. Yeah I have some other rare styles I researched them all I agree he is the most mysterious and I lived and train in Beijing and up in the mountains no one has experience what I have experienced so glad to see you teaching Chinese I practice this way myself 😊
Thanks for the insight
@@learnchinesenow hi can you tell me the name of that movie 🎥?
@@learnchinesenow what is the name of the movie about Dong Hai Chuan in your video 📸?
Man for the last time what is the name of the movie what the heck I unsubscribe from your channel.
The Kungfu Master. Starring Ou Lihao, Bruce Leung & Canti Lau. It's a film lasting less than 2 hours compiled from a Chinese television series, which had over 30 episodes. I consider the compilation poorly done. Very disappointing. I brought on a Chinese video website around 2015 or 2016. 😢v
Very interesting video.
But what makes you think there are only three “internal” Chinese martial arts?
Maybe better wording would be three main internal arts but if you look at all other “internal” arts, they trace their roots back to those three. Ben.
@@learnchinesenow I cannot speak for *all* other "internal" arts but Wuzuquan (五祖拳), Luohan Ruyiquan (羅漢 如意拳) and Wuijiquan (無極拳) do not trace their roots back to those three.
Ba Gua Zhang is the answer to Xing Yi Chuan, which is why they get entwined.
Thanks Ben, aka. Credit Chifu!
Thank you. Be so kind as to do a video on Chang Chun-feng the great Hsing Yi Ch'uan master who is like my great-great-grandfather in our lineage. All the best to you and yours.
Laoshr #60
Ching Yi Kung Fu Association
The history of White Crane boxing 's founder
Jet Li uses this style in the movie "The One". One of his best movies ever.
Yup, and Yu Long uses the handcuff style.
@@DescartesStrollsIntoAPubno he uses Xingyiquan.
@@Chronicskillness Also known colloquially as handcuff style: “There is a story of when Xingyi Grandmaster Guo Yunshen (1829-1898 郭雲深) was imprisoned for accidentally killing an opponent in a duel. By some accounts, he was shackled in handcuffs and leg irons, limiting his ability to practice. He resolved to focus on a short Xingyi technique that his fetters would allow, a powerful basic attack called Beng Quan or crushing fist (崩拳). He allegedly used a half step to accommodate his leg shackles. After three years, he was sprung from jail, and in that time, he had mastered Beng Quan so consummately that he built his reputation on it. It was said that his “half-step Beng Quan could strike anyone under heaven (ban bu beng quan da yu tian xia 半步崩拳打天下).
Grandmaster Guo’s tale inspired a Jet Li movie, his 2001 sleeper, The One. This was a Sci-Fi flick about multiple incarnations across multiple dimensions, casting Jet multiple roles setting him up to fight his ultimate opponent - himself. This Hollywood production that was panned by American critics, but for martial artists, The One worked on a deeper level. Jet’s evil incarnation, Gabriel Yulaw, used the linear attacking methods of Xingyi. Jet’s good incarnation, Gabe Law, deploys the circular strategies of Bagua.”
Yes and there is a Bagua vs Xingyi fight, two of the three big internal styles
A lot of truth here. Bagwa was the first Grandmaster many many many years ago and thus the system, which is incredibly vast and older than Kalaripayattu, was named after him. Yes he was in the mountains for some time and yes the I Ching (book of changes), Feng Shui and the Yin Yang are all related to this practice. It is incredible for health and being centered but yes the martial side of it is supreme although most people don't know how to use it in combat. That being said it doesn't have to be used exactly the way it's practiced since it makes the body's joints, muscles, fascia, skeleton and internal strength grow with time
Hi can you tell us what kung fu style we see in the school fight scene in fist of legend with jet li? Yes ofcause it's theater wushu but wushu display different styles.
So the Character Chen Zhen in fist of legend was supposedly a student of Huo Yuanjia, who did Mizongyi. Whether the fight on screen is authentic, I don’t know. Lots of joint locks (qin na).