When I converted to Islam in the beginning I started to deviate as well with similar thoughts like this gentleman. I used to think that needing to pray was not necessary if you knew what the truth really was. I used to think only sheep needed to pray and do all the other obligatory stuff. In essence this kind of thinking comes from ignorance but mostly arrogance. Alhamdulillah, God has humbled me.
Have you seen he who has taken as his god his [own] desire, and Allah has sent him astray due to knowledge and has set a seal upon his hearing and his heart and put over his vision a veil? So who will guide him after Allah ? Then will you not be reminded? __ Verse (45:23)
Hanif Ibn Ishmael but are you denying that humans eat, shit, sleep and repeat? I never said that’s our purpose, that’s just what humans do. Our purpose is different from what we do. From a naturalistic perspective, that’s all we’re made for. To survive and reproduce. I never stated that is what my purpose is your dunce 😂
ustadz, is any book recommendations, that told us testimonial truth are the strongest epistemology, there a book said it is just informal logic rather formal logic. jazakallahu jaza
@Joker Quran is a miracle revealed upon the prophet by Allah which is a clear evidence to be believing in God and his last messenger. Your anology is baseless
@Joker it's the other way around lol. A sane and logical person can never say the universe came from nothing and that incest is okay, whilst if you read the comics on hulk to an uneducated, ignorant, dummy he might take it literally. Take kids for example (: they believe an obese man flies in one night, all over the globe, breaks into the houses through chimneys and leaves presents. Hilarious
@Tom Harry farid gave him a shout out, correct me if i wrong but thats how i found him ohh wait a second im talking about the wrong imam here he's ibn not imam murrah
Great discussion, Pavlov is a very knowledgeable young man; I alway enjoy hearing his thoughts and opinions. Great job as always Sabboor, I always feel reassured knowing we have intelligent individuals like you representing our religion; all the best!
I think subbour needs to look at alvin platinga evolutionary argument against naturalism if he hasn't already because it's really air tight chamber for atheists or anyone who holds that a supernatural doesn't exist and accepts any evolutionary model, it leads to contradictions.
@@alfonso201 this conversation is very intellectual based and technical, why don't just take it back to basics and explain a creator sent messengers and law
@Joker Grandstanding and purposesfully watering down positions isn't how you start or carry yourself in a dialogue start with understanding what a logical discussion means first then you can discuss other things
Everyone’s insight was beautiful, mashAllah. I liked how the last speaker spoke about the tendency for people to complain about the weather and I used to be like that until I learnt about how one of the times that our duas are most accepted is when it rains. Now I say alhamdulillah when it rains and the opportunity to make duas and also the goodness that is possible because of rain (harvest, cleanliness, coolness, etc). Alhamdulillah for our Most Beneficent and Generous Lord.
Since when is this guy not a Christian anymore. He was always arguing against Islam from a Christian stance. Now he is agnostic? Sounds like he couldn't beat the Musilms with his Christian arguments now he is trying a new angle.
He never claimed to be a Christian? I remember him saying he was an agnostic. He debates a lot on the topic of relativism and how nothing is absolute. Check his discussions with Hashim and Mansur.
Subboor exposes people's unstable mindset just by asking the perfect questions. Amazing technique alhamdu lillah, Allah blessed you immensely with your capabilities.. May Allah give you even more wisdom and knowledge and a long life in which you benefit alot of people, ameen!
I believe brother Mansur already had a discussion with this guy and his friends. They are the ones who claimed they re not sure they really exist. It was one of the funniest videos on speaker's corner 😂😂😂
@@GiNyYu222 Haha right lol But I have noticed something, I think compared to that old video he started losing a bit of ego and learned how to listen kinda. He s much more polite in here. So there is still hope.
It took me alot of videos , to follow SCDawah , and one to follow Subboor لا يستوي الذين يعلمون و الذين لا يعلمون حقيقة اخي بارك الله فيك و زادك من علمه. Edit : 2 to be honest :)
Every aspect of our existence, all our capacities and capabilities intellect knowledge development etc is only in existence and available to us through our Creator, who knows, owns and controls all things through Almighty Power and pre destination, although some assume it there life , there choice, it was by the will, graciousness , truth and Mercy of Allah SWT that I was guided to Islam. Al-ḥamdu l-illāhi rabbi l-ʿālamīn ☝🏼
@John Smith Allah doesn't need you mate, you are the one who needs Him. You can live your life without believing in Him. But if you are wrong about reality, don't cry to anyone for help.
In fact, these people have a god which is (desire) Allah says: - { Have you seen he who has taken as his god his [own] desire } - { But if the Truth had followed their desire, the heavens and the earth and whoever is in them would have been ruined. }
I don't like the example he gave about the cave men it assumes bravery is an inheritable trait, bravery is the control of fear, as long as humans have fear we'll always have cowards, strength of personality is the result of the environmental circumstances not genetic code.
Awesome discussion. Masha Allah, Suboor is really knowledgeable. Pablo needs a few more years of study and I believe he will come to the same conclusions as Suboor.
Agnostics and atheists have it easy when it comes to debates, just slightly change your aethists or agnostic world view slightly whenever it benefits you in a debate and you wont be considered going against your world view.
@John Smith youre always commenting on islamic videos..if you dont believe in islam than fine go live your life, but you cant because deep down youre thinking islam sounds like a true religion but youre too arrogant to accept it.
John Smith No offensive but tbh you’re so arrogant and you should be humble and learn more about the other religion. Instead just coming here to prove that you know everything about them. Your arrogant and that you have very low education show for saying child abuse etc. Bc that is what you heard from the media 🙈 I know you from country that Christianity impact them but never always think other religion like Islam is the same as it. And learn what Muslim do has nothing to do with Islam. Bc if what you think is true, Islam wouldn’t be the fastest growing religion in the world today. Alhamdulilah 😊💪🏾
Joker it’s only in western and it’s bc of the pigs that you guys eat lol just kidding. Btw islam is not growing by birth rate of Muslim it’s growing because pple are converting to Islam. For example, according to CNN in only USA 5 Million converted to Islam. www.dailymotion.com/video/x2zfg60
You are a strong debater ( especially if it’s on your field of expertise). Why you sometimes shout, insult, misbehave. Do you only do that if you are out of your field of expertise or if your opponent is a stronger debater or has better arguments than you?
Are we any less "sheep" in our secular societies? What say do we really have in public affairs? We vote in a government from a limited choice of ≈ equally bad representatives, and then they do what they wish.
Under an atheistic world view why can I not just say that truth has intrinsic value because truth is only ever that which is in accordance with our reality? Is this not just a semantics problem? I think until it can be objectively proven that God (and God’s realm) exists in our reality then you don’t get to say that truth has intrinsic value under a theistic framework and it have any real meaning.
"Under an atheistic world view why can I not just say that truth has intrinsic value" *You can believe that without any foundation or valid justification.* "because truth is only ever that which is in accordance with our reality?" *Kindly clarify this statement.* "I think until it can be objectively proven that God (and God’s realm) exists in our reality" *What do you mean by God exists "in our reality"?*
hamza zulfi I understand the definition of truth as something/anything that is in accordance with reality. For example if it is raining and I make a statement saying it is raining, then my statement becomes objectively true because in reality it is actually raining. This is why I am asking if this is not just a problem of semantics and if theists and non theists are talking about two different things when talking about truth having intrinsic value? So going back to my OP I’m just stating my own interpretation of intrinsic value, or in other words essentialism. My foundation or justification as an atheist is reality for why I believe truth is essential and has value. If theists mean something different than this, then kindly clarify. To your other point the only reason I prefixed reality with “our”, is I mean the reality we agree we both can experience in past present and future. You exist in the same reality as I do so we can agree on that, but you may argue in our reality you have sufficient evidence that God exists and more specifically God from the Islamic perspective is objectively true. I’m saying I’m not convinced of either claim because neither has been proven to be objectively true. Are objective truths only so because they have been demonstrated to be objectively true?
@@karlosjeffers4791 "For example if it is raining and I make a statement saying it is raining, then my statement becomes objectively true" *SUbboor was talking about truth as being good which is a moral claim.* " My foundation or justification as an atheist is reality for why I believe truth is essential and has value." *You can hold that subjective opinion.* *But truth being good is a moral claim. Many evolutionary biologists including Michael Ruse hold the opinion that morality is an illusion. That is another problem we have.* *Even if you say that truth is beneficial and instrumental then it is not entirely correct.* "but you may argue in our reality you have sufficient evidence that God exists and more specifically God from the Islamic perspective is objectively true." *Islamically we wouldn't say that God exists in our reality. We would say that about other attributes but not existence per se.* *Existence is different for different beings or things.* *Atomic/sub atomic level to plants, cells, animals, humans, maybe unknown different dimensional exitences etc.* "I’m saying I’m not convinced of either claim because neither has been proven to be objectively true" *I would humbly suggest that self evident and axiomatic truths and beliefs don't require evidence.* *Evidences are there to strenghten the axiomatic position and to show its logical and rational validity.* *Evidences also help to distinguish whether the axiomatic postion is natural and intuitive.* *Existence of God is natural and intuitive and you can hopefully tell that from introspection, pondering about life/death, world and everything around us and its dependence and ephemeral nature.* "Are objective truths only so because they have been demonstrated to be objectively true?" *No. I usually define objective as not dependent upon limited mind, desires or emotions.* *I would say that they don't necessarily have to be demonstrated. One can intuitively understand and accept them.* *Your own existence, thoughts, dreams etc are objectively true even though they might not be demonstrated outside of your subjective self.* *someone can claim that you don't exist, you don't have thoughts and you have never dreamt etc but you intuitively know that he/she is wrong.* I hope you understand what I wrote and if you find any grave mistakes or objections then kindly tell me.
hamza zulfi well from what I can tell Subboor was asking why do atheists consider truth to be valuable? he has also asked me this same question which I have since had time to think it through. If you’re saying he was instead saying truth is good in a moral sense then maybe this is a semantics issue because I don’t interpret this question in that way and perhaps this is due to the difference in our world view. I don’t agree that when I say truth is valuable, that it has to be in a moral context or that I am making any moral claim. I believe morality itself to be completely subjective but that morality is still a useful concept that has objective principles within it. “Even if you say that truth is beneficial and instrumental then it is not entirely correct” It depends what you mean by entirely correct? If you mean absolute certainty then I don’t believe we can achieve this given that there is so much about reality that we do not yet know. But if you mean in some cases hiding the objective truth from someone can be considered more beneficial than the actual truth then perhaps this might be the case but you still have to know the objective truth to be able to make that decision. “Islamically we wouldn’t say that God exists in our reality” but isn’t the Qur’an based on the whole believers and disbelievers paradigm? Telling us what will be the outcome for both groups? The belief itself is that Allah “exists” and the Qur’an is the literal and perfect word of Allah. So going back to my point if you believe this is objectively true then you must demonstrate because the Islamic God is not a self evident axiomatic truth. I am researching currently to understand more about Islam and the Qur’an but I can say so far in my journey that some of the claims made and also evidences given for the claims made are indistinguishable from paganism for example, and also typical of what I might expect from 7th century understanding of the world and reality (rather than the literal and perfect word of God). But I’m not done yet in my Islamic journey, only starting.
@@karlosjeffers4791 " I don’t agree that when I say truth is valuable, that it has to be in a moral context or that I am making any moral claim." *What is valueable? If you consider it as usefulness, then surely there are many instances where we may consider lies as useful. It means that truth is no longer a virtue rather it depends on the situation.* *Moreover, we have other problems where naturalists who consider truth as virtue, can't account for its presence coherently since morals themselves are considered to be an illusion.* "I believe morality itself to be completely subjective but that morality is still a useful concept that has objective principles within it." *What are the objective principles?* "But if you mean in some cases hiding the objective truth from someone can be considered more beneficial" *Yes, I mean that. Many people know objective truths and they still hide it.* *e.g A thief who lies to avoide punishment.* "The belief itself is that Allah “exists” and the Qur’an is the literal and perfect word of Allah" *Maybe you misunderstood me. We don't believe that Allah exists inside this reality or our space and time. Our belief is that He is beyond space and time but everything that happens is ultimately in His control and is ultimately dependent on Him.* "So going back to my point if you believe this is objectively true then you must demonstrate because the Islamic God is not a self evident axiomatic truth" *I would respectfully disagree. The Islamic concept is the purest and the most natural and intuitive. The Creator who is powerful and unlike anything we see and perceive.* *You will find this concept in Christian Scriptures, Jewish Scriptures, Hindu Scriptures and even in remote tribes who were considered savage even though they all have developed different theologies and have corrupted scriptures.* *I would humbly suggest 2 videos in this regard.* ua-cam.com/video/SOxmYH2bWlA/v-deo.html (Evolution of belief and Native American Tawheed) ua-cam.com/video/3-kpRLpl7qE/v-deo.html (The Abrahamic Experience by Firas Zahabi - MMA Coach and Philosopher) "that some of the claims made and also evidences given for the claims made are indistinguishable from paganism for example" *I would like to know the examples.* "also typical of what I might expect from 7th century understanding of the world and reality" *If you are using a scientific lens then I would humbly suggest that to avoid that.* "But I’m not done yet in my Islamic journey, only starting." *Best of luck on your journey. I hope and pray that you find the truth and certainty in your journey.*
Arsenia Sparkles what did he bring to the table Just watch his other videos it’s the same arguments, just watch the video with brother shabir from truth will be revealed Couple of time brother subhoor wanted end it, because he knew Pavlov going round in circles
@@sajidmahmood4238 atleast let's appreciate his willingness to learn and respect to Sabboor unlike other atheist who refuse to hear others no matter what, give benefit of the doubt.
Funny how he mentions truth being instrumental to the human species survival but fails to realize truth tells us the universe will die which severely undermines his position and renders any endeavor of humanities continuity futile.
It's hilarious every time I encounter someone like this guy. In their arrogance, they believe that they come up with something new, and they can debunk Islam. But our religion has been addressing people like this ever since the time of prophet Idris and Noah ( may peace be upon them)…. Islamic philosophers and theologians have put forth several arguments for the existence of God, which are commonly known as the proofs of God's existence. These arguments include: 1. The cosmological argument: This argument, also known as the First Cause argument, posits that everything in the universe has a cause, and that cause itself has a cause, and so on. This leads to the conclusion that there must be a first cause that is uncaused, and this uncaused cause is God. 2. The teleological argument: This argument, also known as the Argument from Design, suggests that the order and complexity in the universe, especially in living beings, imply the existence of a designer. The argument states that the intricate design and purposeful arrangement of the universe could not have occurred by chance, and therefore there must be a designer, who is God. 3. The moral argument: This argument posits that the existence of objective moral values and duties in the world imply the existence of a moral lawgiver. The argument suggests that the moral lawgiver is God, who provides the foundation for moral values and duties. These arguments have been developed and refined by various Islamic philosophers and theologians over the centuries, including Al-Farabi, Ibn Rushd (Averroes), Al-Ghazali, and Ibn Sina (Avicenna). Islamic philosophy and theology have also drawn from the works of Greek philosophers, such as Aristotle and Plato, in developing these arguments. Overall, these arguments aim to demonstrate the existence of God through reason and rational inquiry. While some may find these arguments persuasive, others may find them less convincing. Islamic philosophy and theology also recognize the importance of faith and revelation in understanding and experiencing the divine.
When I converted to Islam in the beginning I started to deviate as well with similar thoughts like this gentleman. I used to think that needing to pray was not necessary if you knew what the truth really was. I used to think only sheep needed to pray and do all the other obligatory stuff.
In essence this kind of thinking comes from ignorance but mostly arrogance.
Alhamdulillah, God has humbled me.
MashAllah good to hear that
Both Qur'an and Sunnah.
Wallahi you are correct, ARROGANCE.
Have you seen he who has taken as his god his [own] desire, and Allah has sent him astray due to knowledge and has set a seal upon his hearing and his heart and put over his vision a veil? So who will guide him after Allah ? Then will you not be reminded? __
Verse (45:23)
"We hear and we obey.quran 24 51
“it's objective for me”. in other words, it's subjective.
Well truth isnt really the goal of naturalism.
Laura Silverman of?
Hanif Ibn Ishmael no one eats shits and sleeps and then repeats? You sure? Lol
Hanif Ibn Ishmael but are you denying that humans eat, shit, sleep and repeat? I never said that’s our purpose, that’s just what humans do. Our purpose is different from what we do. From a naturalistic perspective, that’s all we’re made for. To survive and reproduce. I never stated that is what my purpose is your dunce 😂
kept getting his name wrong lol
ustadz, is any book recommendations, that told us testimonial truth are the strongest epistemology, there a book said it is just informal logic rather formal logic. jazakallahu jaza
@Mr. Terrific aselam wealykum bro, the author of the kalam cosomological argument is not mohammed hijab, the author's name is william lane craige
Ahlam Hassen bro hijabs book is argumentS, plural
@@TheCodenaruto oh thanks, i was unaware of that
Ahlam Hassen yea bro, in his book he discusses all types of Kalam arguments for God’s existence. W.L Craig only talks about one of those
I bear witness that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah
@Joker oh really? How do u know if he really meant it or not. Prove it if you make sense!
@Joker nope, I attest that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah
@Joker Quran is a miracle revealed upon the prophet by Allah which is a clear evidence to be believing in God and his last messenger. Your anology is baseless
@Joker it's the other way around lol. A sane and logical person can never say the universe came from nothing and that incest is okay, whilst if you read the comics on hulk to an uneducated, ignorant, dummy he might take it literally. Take kids for example (: they believe an obese man flies in one night, all over the globe, breaks into the houses through chimneys and leaves presents. Hilarious
Joker Bruh can you speak in clear Text? Cant read because of the emojis 🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️
seeing civil discussions like this makes me really happy lmao
_Meanwhile in Pakistan_ :
same, may Allah bring pavlo into islam. he was a really kind and respectful person, he already has the moral's of a muslim.
@Ninja FEESE thank for that i will, can you post the link?
They're both polite and smart and knowledgeable that's why
This guy was really cocky and rude he seems better here
_A herd of sheep who tell themselves they’re not a herd of sheep, controlled by a God named Desire 🤣_
murrah will destroy them
Over Lord
With the help of Allah
Black Eye
I’m the son of your favorite imam 😈
@Tom Harry farid gave him a shout out, correct me if i wrong but thats how i found him ohh wait a second im talking about the wrong imam here he's ibn not imam murrah
This is actually a very true comment. jazakAllaah khoir.
Great discussion, Pavlov is a very knowledgeable young man; I alway enjoy hearing his thoughts and opinions. Great job as always Sabboor, I always feel reassured knowing we have intelligent individuals like you representing our religion; all the best!
This guy is so intelligent and honest! May Alllah guide him to the right path.
May Allah bless you brother subboor ,your a very logical person and your each statement make sense mashaaAllah👏🌸🍃
I think subbour needs to look at alvin platinga evolutionary argument against naturalism if he hasn't already because it's really air tight chamber for atheists or anyone who holds that a supernatural doesn't exist and accepts any evolutionary model, it leads to contradictions.
I am aware of it, it is very good, and I wanna build on it and make a even stronger argument iA
keep it up brother!
@Mr. Terrific
ua-cam.com/video/cs6zFymVKJM/v-deo.html
@@alfonso201 this conversation is very intellectual based and technical, why don't just take it back to basics and explain a creator sent messengers and law
@Joker
Grandstanding and purposesfully watering down positions isn't how you start or carry yourself in a dialogue start with understanding what a logical discussion means first then you can discuss other things
This was actually an enjoyable chat with some good points raised on both sides. Nice one
Everyone’s insight was beautiful, mashAllah.
I liked how the last speaker spoke about the tendency for people to complain about the weather and I used to be like that until I learnt about how one of the times that our duas are most accepted is when it rains. Now I say alhamdulillah when it rains and the opportunity to make duas and also the goodness that is possible because of rain (harvest, cleanliness, coolness, etc).
Alhamdulillah for our Most Beneficent and Generous Lord.
Subhan Allah for Br Subboors knowledge
MashAllah brother Subhoor is like a much needed vaccine for these agnostic atheistic ideologies
FITNAH WAHABI in this link ua-cam.com/video/zEUQd_nNJjY/v-deo.html
A Really beautiful discussion! I am very happy to see speakers corner is still functional in regards to such discussions.
This was a really good and fruitful conversation.
May Allah reward you immensely and grant you success brother Sboor
Very lovely video and respectful conversation. May الله bless every one of you, for he is the most merciful.
جزاک الله خيرا و کثیرا اخي ❤️☝️❤️
Since when is this guy not a Christian anymore. He was always arguing against Islam from a Christian stance. Now he is agnostic? Sounds like he couldn't beat the Musilms with his Christian arguments now he is trying a new angle.
@Omar B. Omar He is known at speakers corner for years now. His name is Pavlov
He never claimed to be a Christian? I remember him saying he was an agnostic. He debates a lot on the topic of relativism and how nothing is absolute. Check his discussions with Hashim and Mansur.
@@SawarimHaqq when he was debating mansur this guy was saying i dont sure that i exist so this guy us attention seeker
@@Habib.OO7 maybe , but highly unlikely
Subboor, you're the most eloquent speaker I've ever seen.
May Allah reward you for your patience
I honestly love this type of discussion with Subboor. Other parts in speakers corner are so toxic and loud
beauuuuutiful discussion!!
Km juga
Good to hear that
Sometimes the best comes out if you debate sincerely and are willing to explore and learn.
Subboor exposes people's unstable mindset just by asking the perfect questions. Amazing technique alhamdu lillah, Allah blessed you immensely with your capabilities.. May Allah give you even more wisdom and knowledge and a long life in which you benefit alot of people, ameen!
Thanks Br. Saboor. Was looking for mini debate like this!
Intellect and logic are two edged sword it can prove and disprove anything...
I like the instinctive fire backs of brother Saboor mashaallah. I don't think I will be able to respond like this even after hours of thinking😂
This discussion was amazing! Mashallah. Looking forward to seeing similar ones.
i like that guy, he was so polite and intelligent. insha Allah he understands Islam and becomes Muslim.
This discussion was very interesting and cool to listen to and I understand a lot of things 🤩
I believe brother Mansur already had a discussion with this guy and his friends. They are the ones who claimed they re not sure they really exist. It was one of the funniest videos on speaker's corner 😂😂😂
true he claimed to be atheist , now he is agnostic , the next video he will be christian true face
@@GiNyYu222 Haha right lol But I have noticed something, I think compared to that old video he started losing a bit of ego and learned how to listen kinda. He s much more polite in here. So there is still hope.
@@achrafagermoune2417 exactly
not that funny in fact
@@AlbertRei3424 That's subjective. Your opinion 😅
Islam will unite us all.
Very good conversation and very insightful
It took me alot of videos , to follow SCDawah , and one to follow Subboor
لا يستوي الذين يعلمون و الذين لا يعلمون
حقيقة اخي بارك الله فيك و زادك من علمه.
Edit : 2 to be honest :)
Brother Suboor you are amazing
Keep it up
Love from Pakistan to you brothers.
Every aspect of our existence, all our capacities and capabilities intellect knowledge development etc is only in existence and available to us through our Creator, who knows, owns and controls all things through Almighty Power and pre destination, although some assume it there life , there choice, it was by the will, graciousness , truth and Mercy of Allah SWT that I was guided to Islam. Al-ḥamdu l-illāhi rabbi l-ʿālamīn ☝🏼
amazing discussion brother. pablo was also a good guy may you have another discussion
Why do i keep hearing “Allah pray”? Despite it’s statement has been refuted along time ago....
Because a Semitic languages was created by the Romans extended Christians. So they get to decide what the Hebrew Tanakh or Arabic Quran says.
Allah reward Subboor in dunja and the hereafter
12:36 to say something has a time limit is trivial. The universe has a time limit as well...
Subhhor bro great knowledge
The real question is... is Pavlov certain that he exists?
Well I can see him!!! 😂😂😂
Subboor Says " this goes into my favourite area" 😄
May Allah guide this gentleman to the straightpath
Subboor was in a different league here but was very kind to young Pavlov. Hopefully one day Pavlov will submit to the will of the creator.
Is that Ralph, if it is, Ralph you should study Islam sincerely, soften your heart
@@johnnydeclanbarnes116
It is and I am
@John Smith
Allah doesn't need you mate, you are the one who needs Him. You can live your life without believing in Him. But if you are wrong about reality, don't cry to anyone for help.
@John Smith
You can ask any Arab or you can google it.
@John Smith
What a lazy person. I googled it for you.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah
The difference between religion and legion is the legion and the religion. Religion is a legion that is being reformed.
In fact, these people have a god which is (desire)
Allah says:
- { Have you seen he who has taken as his god his [own] desire }
- { But if the Truth had followed their desire, the heavens and the earth and whoever is in them would have been ruined. }
@Joker In your ignorance you confused Islam with Christianity.
@Joker Then retract your “brainwashed” statement.
FITNAH WAHABI in this link ua-cam.com/video/zEUQd_nNJjY/v-deo.html
I don't like the example he gave about the cave men it assumes bravery is an inheritable trait, bravery is the control of fear, as long as humans have fear we'll always have cowards, strength of personality is the result of the environmental circumstances not genetic code.
Next week should continue Quran is pure
Not even a min into the video but Pavlov is the guy who was uncertain about uncertainties.
Do you go to speakers corner every Sunday?
He sounds better with Saboor than he does with the other speakers
Switching between atheism and anti-theism
After he got humbled by Shabir Yusuf, his arrogance evaporated. I agree this Pavlov is much more likeable.
i hope he comes back, he have interesting questions and personality
He is always there
Awesome discussion. Masha Allah, Suboor is really knowledgeable. Pablo needs a few more years of study and I believe he will come to the same conclusions as Suboor.
Can sombody tell me where i can get the striped jacket the brother is wearing near the end?
Yo is anyone else just loving this guy's accent?
Take down your comedy dua
What's going on in the background? Especially near the end 👀
normal day in the UK.
Agnostics and atheists have it easy when it comes to debates, just slightly change your aethists or agnostic world view slightly whenever it benefits you in a debate and you wont be considered going against your world view.
It’s great to see him after long time ago. Hopefully Allah SWT will guide him and he will be a Muslim soon. 😊
@John Smith youre always commenting on islamic videos..if you dont believe in islam than fine go live your life, but you cant because deep down youre thinking islam sounds like a true religion but youre too arrogant to accept it.
John Smith No offensive but tbh you’re so arrogant and you should be humble and learn more about the other religion. Instead just coming here to prove that you know everything about them.
Your arrogant and that you have very low education show for saying child abuse etc. Bc that is what you heard from the media 🙈
I know you from country that Christianity impact them but never always think other religion like Islam is the same as it. And learn what Muslim do has nothing to do with Islam. Bc if what you think is true, Islam wouldn’t be the fastest growing religion in the world today. Alhamdulilah 😊💪🏾
Joker it’s only in western and it’s bc of the pigs that you guys eat lol just kidding.
Btw islam is not growing by birth rate of Muslim it’s growing because pple are converting to Islam. For example, according to CNN in only USA 5 Million converted to Islam. www.dailymotion.com/video/x2zfg60
FITNAH WAHABI in this link ua-cam.com/video/zEUQd_nNJjY/v-deo.html
Pablos is missing the beard, he keeps touching his naked chin!!!
Pablos, if you are reading this, It's for banter.
Subboor is a Beast
I Thought That He is A Human ???
6:47 Love that Darwinian laugh 😙
Atheism made my friend so depressed 😢😢😢. He said death is better than living.
You are a strong debater ( especially if it’s on your field of expertise). Why you sometimes shout, insult, misbehave. Do you only do that if you are out of your field of expertise or if your opponent is a stronger debater or has better arguments than you?
Who?
@@tahabashir4708 the owner of this channel. The guy with the beard.
MAY ALLAH GIVE ME and BLESS ME WITH KIDS LIKE BROTHER SUBBOOR and Muslims like him. Ameen. Please my Muslim brother and sister make due for me . 🤲💜
Is that guy Russian ..... Accent?
The agnostic makes up as he go along.
The ONE again he think he live in matrix world LOL
Philosophy made a donkey kill himself 😂
Are we any less "sheep" in our secular societies? What say do we really have in public affairs? We vote in a government from a limited choice of ≈ equally bad representatives, and then they do what they wish.
You will look like Darwin by the time goes by, lol, love brother Subboor!
@John Smith okay?
Genetic morality is placed in us by God not evolution
Allah gifted us brain to use it to benefit us...
Mankind -- lets use it for sophisticated tasks & degrade the level than animals
Under an atheistic world view why can I not just say that truth has intrinsic value because truth is only ever that which is in accordance with our reality? Is this not just a semantics problem?
I think until it can be objectively proven that God (and God’s realm) exists in our reality then you don’t get to say that truth has intrinsic value under a theistic framework and it have any real meaning.
"Under an atheistic world view why can I not just say that truth has intrinsic value"
*You can believe that without any foundation or valid justification.*
"because truth is only ever that which is in accordance with our reality?"
*Kindly clarify this statement.*
"I think until it can be objectively proven that God (and God’s realm) exists in our reality"
*What do you mean by God exists "in our reality"?*
hamza zulfi I understand the definition of truth as something/anything that is in accordance with reality. For example if it is raining and I make a statement saying it is raining, then my statement becomes objectively true because in reality it is actually raining.
This is why I am asking if this is not just a problem of semantics and if theists and non theists are talking about two different things when talking about truth having intrinsic value? So going back to my OP I’m just stating my own interpretation of intrinsic value, or in other words essentialism. My foundation or justification as an atheist is reality for why I believe truth is essential and has value. If theists mean something different than this, then kindly clarify.
To your other point the only reason I prefixed reality with “our”, is I mean the reality we agree we both can experience in past present and future. You exist in the same reality as I do so we can agree on that, but you may argue in our reality you have sufficient evidence that God exists and more specifically God from the Islamic perspective is objectively true. I’m saying I’m not convinced of either claim because neither has been proven to be objectively true. Are objective truths only so because they have been demonstrated to be objectively true?
@@karlosjeffers4791 "For example if it is raining and I make a statement saying it is raining, then my statement becomes objectively true"
*SUbboor was talking about truth as being good which is a moral claim.*
" My foundation or justification as an atheist is reality for why I believe truth is essential and has value."
*You can hold that subjective opinion.*
*But truth being good is a moral claim. Many evolutionary biologists including Michael Ruse hold the opinion that morality is an illusion. That is another problem we have.*
*Even if you say that truth is beneficial and instrumental then it is not entirely correct.*
"but you may argue in our reality you have sufficient evidence that God exists and more specifically God from the Islamic perspective is objectively true."
*Islamically we wouldn't say that God exists in our reality. We would say that about other attributes but not existence per se.*
*Existence is different for different beings or things.*
*Atomic/sub atomic level to plants, cells, animals, humans, maybe unknown different dimensional exitences etc.*
"I’m saying I’m not convinced of either claim because neither has been proven to be objectively true"
*I would humbly suggest that self evident and axiomatic truths and beliefs don't require evidence.*
*Evidences are there to strenghten the axiomatic position and to show its logical and rational validity.*
*Evidences also help to distinguish whether the axiomatic postion is natural and intuitive.*
*Existence of God is natural and intuitive and you can hopefully tell that from introspection, pondering about life/death, world and everything around us and its dependence and ephemeral nature.*
"Are objective truths only so because they have been demonstrated to be objectively true?"
*No. I usually define objective as not dependent upon limited mind, desires or emotions.*
*I would say that they don't necessarily have to be demonstrated. One can intuitively understand and accept them.*
*Your own existence, thoughts, dreams etc are objectively true even though they might not be demonstrated outside of your subjective self.*
*someone can claim that you don't exist, you don't have thoughts and you have never dreamt etc but you intuitively know that he/she is wrong.*
I hope you understand what I wrote and if you find any grave mistakes or objections then kindly tell me.
hamza zulfi well from what I can tell Subboor was asking why do atheists consider truth to be valuable? he has also asked me this same question which I have since had time to think it through. If you’re saying he was instead saying truth is good in a moral sense then maybe this is a semantics issue because I don’t interpret this question in that way and perhaps this is due to the difference in our world view. I don’t agree that when I say truth is valuable, that it has to be in a moral context or that I am making any moral claim. I believe morality itself to be completely subjective but that morality is still a useful concept that has objective principles within it.
“Even if you say that truth is beneficial and instrumental then it is not entirely correct”
It depends what you mean by entirely correct? If you mean absolute certainty then I don’t believe we can achieve this given that there is so much about reality that we do not yet know. But if you mean in some cases hiding the objective truth from someone can be considered more beneficial than the actual truth then perhaps this might be the case but you still have to know the objective truth to be able to make that decision.
“Islamically we wouldn’t say that God exists in our reality”
but isn’t the Qur’an based on the whole believers and disbelievers paradigm? Telling us what will be the outcome for both groups? The belief itself is that Allah “exists” and the Qur’an is the literal and perfect word of Allah. So going back to my point if you believe this is objectively true then you must demonstrate because the Islamic God is not a self evident axiomatic truth. I am researching currently to understand more about Islam and the Qur’an but I can say so far in my journey that some of the claims made and also evidences given for the claims made are indistinguishable from paganism for example, and also typical of what I might expect from 7th century understanding of the world and reality (rather than the literal and perfect word of God). But I’m not done yet in my Islamic journey, only starting.
@@karlosjeffers4791 " I don’t agree that when I say truth is valuable, that it has to be in a moral context or that I am making any moral claim."
*What is valueable? If you consider it as usefulness, then surely there are many instances where we may consider lies as useful. It means that truth is no longer a virtue rather it depends on the situation.*
*Moreover, we have other problems where naturalists who consider truth as virtue, can't account for its presence coherently since morals themselves are considered to be an illusion.*
"I believe morality itself to be completely subjective but that morality is still a useful concept that has objective principles within it."
*What are the objective principles?*
"But if you mean in some cases hiding the objective truth from someone can be considered more beneficial"
*Yes, I mean that. Many people know objective truths and they still hide it.*
*e.g A thief who lies to avoide punishment.*
"The belief itself is that Allah “exists” and the Qur’an is the literal and perfect word of Allah"
*Maybe you misunderstood me. We don't believe that Allah exists inside this reality or our space and time. Our belief is that He is beyond space and time but everything that happens is ultimately in His control and is ultimately dependent on Him.*
"So going back to my point if you believe this is objectively true then you must demonstrate because the Islamic God is not a self evident axiomatic truth"
*I would respectfully disagree. The Islamic concept is the purest and the most natural and intuitive. The Creator who is powerful and unlike anything we see and perceive.*
*You will find this concept in Christian Scriptures, Jewish Scriptures, Hindu Scriptures and even in remote tribes who were considered savage even though they all have developed different theologies and have corrupted scriptures.*
*I would humbly suggest 2 videos in this regard.*
ua-cam.com/video/SOxmYH2bWlA/v-deo.html (Evolution of belief and Native American Tawheed)
ua-cam.com/video/3-kpRLpl7qE/v-deo.html (The Abrahamic Experience by Firas Zahabi - MMA Coach and Philosopher)
"that some of the claims made and also evidences given for the claims made are indistinguishable from paganism for example"
*I would like to know the examples.*
"also typical of what I might expect from 7th century understanding of the world and reality"
*If you are using a scientific lens then I would humbly suggest that to avoid that.*
"But I’m not done yet in my Islamic journey, only starting."
*Best of luck on your journey. I hope and pray that you find the truth and certainty in your journey.*
The agnost is so clever
Pavlov hasn’t got a clue what he’s talking about
He’s just playing word games every time brother subhoor says something
Going round in circles
No, he makes sense actually. No need to be biased, brother.
Arsenia Sparkles what did he bring to the table
Just watch his other videos it’s the same arguments, just watch the video with brother shabir from truth will be revealed
Couple of time brother subhoor wanted end it, because he knew Pavlov going round in circles
@@sajidmahmood4238 atleast let's appreciate his willingness to learn and respect to Sabboor unlike other atheist who refuse to hear others no matter what, give benefit of the doubt.
Dump Account 00070 well said👍🏼
Funny how he mentions truth being instrumental to the human species survival but fails to realize truth tells us the universe will die which severely undermines his position and renders any endeavor of humanities continuity futile.
So sheep is the one who chooses what to follow. Not being a sheep is following the norms of society.. Ok
so im sheep? :( feels bad man
Assalamualaikum.....Please sub indo all your video
On inteligent discussions they want to give the chance to talk to the other.... while in dumb discussions they are always figthing to talk first 😂
Ammunition for the war on the mind
Their ir oral history so him saying it is just written is false.
3:00 Nietzsche reader no doubt lol
He is yeah
@@SaidMetiche-qy9hb could definitely tell he's read 'on the genealogy of morals' with that whole wolf and sheep point lol
Is that Mamix lol
I bet Mr pavlo got lots of answer which he agree but fear to disclose the truth. These truth will haunt him lol
It's hilarious every time I encounter someone like this guy. In their arrogance, they believe that they come up with something new, and they can debunk Islam. But our religion has been addressing people like this ever since the time of prophet Idris and Noah ( may peace be upon them)….
Islamic philosophers and theologians have put forth several arguments for the existence of God, which are commonly known as the proofs of God's existence. These arguments include:
1. The cosmological argument: This argument, also known as the First Cause argument, posits that everything in the universe has a cause, and that cause itself has a cause, and so on. This leads to the conclusion that there must be a first cause that is uncaused, and this uncaused cause is God.
2. The teleological argument: This argument, also known as the Argument from Design, suggests that the order and complexity in the universe, especially in living beings, imply the existence of a designer. The argument states that the intricate design and purposeful arrangement of the universe could not have occurred by chance, and therefore there must be a designer, who is God.
3. The moral argument: This argument posits that the existence of objective moral values and duties in the world imply the existence of a moral lawgiver. The argument suggests that the moral lawgiver is God, who provides the foundation for moral values and duties.
These arguments have been developed and refined by various Islamic philosophers and theologians over the centuries, including Al-Farabi, Ibn Rushd (Averroes), Al-Ghazali, and Ibn Sina (Avicenna). Islamic philosophy and theology have also drawn from the works of Greek philosophers, such as Aristotle and Plato, in developing these arguments.
Overall, these arguments aim to demonstrate the existence of God through reason and rational inquiry. While some may find these arguments persuasive, others may find them less convincing. Islamic philosophy and theology also recognize the importance of faith and revelation in understanding and experiencing the divine.
Genetic morality 😂😂😂😂
thats a sick topic who got the joke lol
darwinisim is a relegion lmao
The white guy won this by a mile!!!!
So you mean Suboor?😂
Who is the caveman hiding?
Not fluent
Unsubscribing
Why, because you’re allergic to intelligent conversation?
@Joker You need the believe lesson by Brother Darren Hamza Myatt of EFDAWAH, here you go : ua-cam.com/video/Eik853dYSPA/v-deo.html
@Joker why should one believe in spider man?
@Joker we Muslim BELIEVE Allah exists, first of all you need to have a sound understanding of the word BELIEVE.
FITNAH WAHABI in this link ua-cam.com/video/zEUQd_nNJjY/v-deo.html
23:17 this guy is nuts. kept agreeing and accepting yet still calls himself a agnostic, what is wrong with him