I can imagine this wisdom catching on with “everyday” people, and it gives me chills. I long to see these concepts elaborated using common terminology. The vocabulary seems “academic” at first glance. I often have to pause and write down all the words you are using. Then it starts to make more sense. I also understand the importance of specificity in what you’re communicating. You could so easily be misunderstood in very nuanced ways. Thank you both for sharing your “serious play” with us!
I agree. I have some background in academia and I'm fluent in English though it's not my first language, but I still find it hard to follow sometimes. I would love for this to be made more 'accessible' to a wider range of people because I think it could be really important.
To me, THAT is the “more”. The “more” involves bringing the ideals to life, during which process, our collective ideals will be further refined due to increased communication and accuracy of communication
I grew up deeply engrained with the Mormon religion and I always found myself profoundly connected to the rituals that took place within and often experienced transformative experiences through them. While I have since left the group due to many issues (One of which being their propositional tyranny), I have still had difficulty integrating my deeply powerful experiences with the fact that I believe the religion to be largely irrational in its propositions. This video and your other content have really helped me find a way to contextualize my experiences and has been incredibly healing for me. Thank you, Professor Vervaeke!
So,so happy for you two...fascinating to follow your journey and amazing analyses at all levels. Lets hope this analysis can get distributed into all the tributaries provided by existing educative and cultural channels.
I just listened to your discussion with dr Jordan Cooper on Paul VanderKlays channel and now this so a bit steeped and full of different thought racing back and forth but felt like sharing another perspective rooted in the enlightenment phenomena. I really think Freemasonry fit in so very well with your themes. It is spiritual, and in some forms it can bridge religions, it consists of rituals purposefully designed to stimulate personal growth in a very experience centered pedagogy. There are so many elements that fit in your descriptions that I think these thought will stimulate further the introspective, naturally so since it is veiled in secrecy, scientific studies of the craft. I will randomly list some aspects that I think are examples that somehow has a bearing of what you said. The symbolism involved is obviously rich enough for participants to find the ones that fit their own life and their own cognitive style and there is always room to build your own symbolic construct from the collage of allegories and signs and lodge officers etc. Reflection is strongly recommended but the effect of that grows, nay shifts nature, when set in a physical and suggestive experience. There is a special tension between not knowing what the degrees above your own entail, but that is mediated by the longlasting friendship to the other participants. This playground that is the lodge is for serious play and it is also separated from the world. What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas and the same is true in a lodge. As all are men the intergender tensions and all sorts of issues related to that are gone. In this context the reflection is of your own experience rooted in your corporal encounter of the unknown. This makes for a paradoxal safe vulnerability, something underrated and I feel missing in your analysis, of course pending it was not mentioned in your source. I always liked the wording that a comfort zone is a fantastic thing - but nothing ever grows there. You mentioned the shift to a third person view and that comes naturally and especially when you see someone else getting that degree. The whole experience is shared and enveloped at the meal that is always shared afterwords. Food is of course a symbolic lifegiver as well as the bodily connection. Conversations are always rewarding, sometimes very personal and healing in nature. As strong friendships are built into the system the people around you may even serve as role models. Anyways, these are just my immediate thoughts that I had as most things you said I could relate to by experience as well as logic. It is of course not for everyone, but then again - what in this world is? I apologise for the very long post.
Thank you, profesor Vervaeke. You, your projects and your guests have been essential to open and deepen my vision. Long and good life for you and your creations. Greetings from Argentina
I am a practicioner of Vajrayana Buddhism and practically everything you're saying about ritual maps perfectly on the practices of Tantra, which are basically about playfully rehearsing the state of Enlightenment by identifying oneself with a deity through imaginative visualization and ritualized actions and recitations (mantra). I have also been quite amazed by the convergences of Tantra and theurgic Platonism (Gregory Shaw has also written on this).
If I may put in: Master Xún (298-238 b.c.e.) already stated (paraphrased): "Ritual is deep, and mysterious, indeed..." (Catherine Bell) Ritual got the attention of cultural-anthropologists since the beginnings. What regards the historio-genetic overlappings: They may be interpreted as the result of some "universal tendencies" in human "conscious-being" (Dasein), unfolding during the so called "axial age" (Karl Jaspers, "Achsenzeit") - seems quite sound to me, especially since there has been some notable intercultural exchange at least since the times of Alexander the Great and his Eastern expeditions.
On Point. First person perspective is upside down and now, that this world is getting to be right side up, it is the third person perspective that holds the truth of LIFE!🔱♾️💫 Meaning, has nothing to do with words…
So I’m hearing that rationality is kinda the same as cognitive flexibility. Something is deemed “rational” is if enhances flexibility and opening as opposed to rigidity and stuckness. Am I off-course here Gentlemen, with equating the terms? ❤️🙏🏽
Not sure if this is right either, rational as balance between culture and wild, that centers and allows oneself in the world. When focused upon and entered into with ritual and practice. This in particular centering the individual in the group and that group in humanity as one object or gradient among the others on the planet, displaying intelligence to grow wisdom. Which might loop back to rationality as the safe space for such.
I would say it is cognitive flexibility in service of systemically and systematically overcoming self deception and enhancing fittedness/connection to oneself, others, the world, and the ultimate.
John, this may be a naive question, but I have been getting into BOTH your content and some of the various other sacred lineages… Are you familiar with the concepts of cosmo-erotic humanism? If so, how does it differ in application and effectiveness compared to transcendent naturalism?
I was just wondering about a story, fairy tale and particularly myth ;haven’t our past rituals etc and all the ways of knowing been embedded within a story line or myth , imaginal but experienced as real -,so where’s the story or is there no need for one , or am I missing the point?
"Gnosticism" is an umbrella term that covers a wide range of beliefs. In its most basic form, Gnosticism is the anti-creedal sentiment that one can reach a transcendental state through non-revelatory knowledge gained through theurgical rituals and practices. Because personal revelation by faith and not works is excluded from your four types of knowing (and the ritualism aka dialogos) is my guess why you are being labeled a Gnostic.
To be honest, I am bewildered by the n o r m a t i v e "bias" seeping ever stronger into a project, which seems to have started as "strict science". Don´t know what do make of this. I personally would like to see/hear more of the latter. Well, let´s wait and see... -Regards
Science presupposed rationality which is Botha descriptive and normative term. Trying to keep the normative out of strict science means that a scientific worldview will never ground rationality nor science itself. This is a performative contradiction. See Casebeer’s Natural Ethical Facts and Putnam’s The Collapse of the Fact/Value distinction. I have argued that relevance realization is also an explanatory and a normative concept.
@@johnvervaeke Thank You very much for Your kind reply. Most probably I understand "science" in a slightly different way - very much inspired a) by Joseph Needham´s idea of "scientific universalism", as well as by the phenomenological movement in the vein of Edmund Husserl, from the Western side, and b) by East Asian studies, from the Eastern side. Somehow, I would even propose that "rationality" (no such word in traditional Chinese thinking, which does not mean they had no "calculus", "measure", and so forth, but it was mostly left implicit) emanates, resp. somehow arises from something like an primordial scientific attitude (based on the ur-event of aletheia á la Heidegger). And it seems to me as somehow morally colourless, as at least partially belonging to a different register. What regards "old school religions", as well as some "big theories", I would like to take a deep dive into all the intricacies, connected with the different "stream systems" (H. Küng) of "religion" én generale and én detail. [One rather personal remark: Some YT-channels, like MythVision, and HistoryValley, unexpcetedly functioned for me as kinda "repetitorium", which shed some interesting new lights (sometimes in much detail) on "religion" as such, as well as on mainly Near Eastern (Egypt, Greece, Israel, Mespotamia etc.) "old schools" - but also on some "new" - and their genesis, how they were created/concstructed, were developed, and so forth. They added to a very variegated picture...] It´s not easy to explain all this with a few words. At least, I hope these few remarks helped for some clarification regarding, maybe, some points of difference. But sure, all these topics are difficult ones, multidimensional-polyvalent, a "vast field": "science", "religion", "science and religion", and so forth. And, as an old Chinese saying goes: "The aim is high, the way is long!" -Regards
I can imagine this wisdom catching on with “everyday” people, and it gives me chills. I long to see these concepts elaborated using common terminology. The vocabulary seems “academic” at first glance. I often have to pause and write down all the words you are using. Then it starts to make more sense.
I also understand the importance of specificity in what you’re communicating. You could so easily be misunderstood in very nuanced ways.
Thank you both for sharing your “serious play” with us!
I agree. I have some background in academia and I'm fluent in English though it's not my first language, but I still find it hard to follow sometimes. I would love for this to be made more 'accessible' to a wider range of people because I think it could be really important.
Thank you gentlemen for pushing the frontiers of knowledge in the realm of ritual and embodiment!
To me, THAT is the “more”. The “more” involves bringing the ideals to life, during which process, our collective ideals will be further refined due to increased communication and accuracy of communication
I grew up deeply engrained with the Mormon religion and I always found myself profoundly connected to the rituals that took place within and often experienced transformative experiences through them. While I have since left the group due to many issues (One of which being their propositional tyranny), I have still had difficulty integrating my deeply powerful experiences with the fact that I believe the religion to be largely irrational in its propositions. This video and your other content have really helped me find a way to contextualize my experiences and has been incredibly healing for me.
Thank you, Professor Vervaeke!
Amazing series. Can’t stop thinking the relation of Transcendence Naturalism with more studies into electrons.
So,so happy for you two...fascinating to follow your journey and amazing analyses at all levels. Lets hope this analysis can get distributed into all the tributaries provided by existing educative and cultural channels.
I just listened to your discussion with dr Jordan Cooper on Paul VanderKlays channel and now this so a bit steeped and full of different thought racing back and forth but felt like sharing another perspective rooted in the enlightenment phenomena.
I really think Freemasonry fit in so very well with your themes. It is spiritual, and in some forms it can bridge religions, it consists of rituals purposefully designed to stimulate personal growth in a very experience centered pedagogy. There are so many elements that fit in your descriptions that I think these thought will stimulate further the introspective, naturally so since it is veiled in secrecy, scientific studies of the craft. I will randomly list some aspects that I think are examples that somehow has a bearing of what you said.
The symbolism involved is obviously rich enough for participants to find the ones that fit their own life and their own cognitive style and there is always room to build your own symbolic construct from the collage of allegories and signs and lodge officers etc. Reflection is strongly recommended but the effect of that grows, nay shifts nature, when set in a physical and suggestive experience. There is a special tension between not knowing what the degrees above your own entail, but that is mediated by the longlasting friendship to the other participants. This playground that is the lodge is for serious play and it is also separated from the world. What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas and the same is true in a lodge. As all are men the intergender tensions and all sorts of issues related to that are gone. In this context the reflection is of your own experience rooted in your corporal encounter of the unknown. This makes for a paradoxal safe vulnerability, something underrated and I feel missing in your analysis, of course pending it was not mentioned in your source. I always liked the wording that a comfort zone is a fantastic thing - but nothing ever grows there.
You mentioned the shift to a third person view and that comes naturally and especially when you see someone else getting that degree. The whole experience is shared and enveloped at the meal that is always shared afterwords. Food is of course a symbolic lifegiver as well as the bodily connection. Conversations are always rewarding, sometimes very personal and healing in nature. As strong friendships are built into the system the people around you may even serve as role models.
Anyways, these are just my immediate thoughts that I had as most things you said I could relate to by experience as well as logic. It is of course not for everyone, but then again - what in this world is?
I apologise for the very long post.
Thank you, profesor Vervaeke. You, your projects and your guests have been essential to open and deepen my vision. Long and good life for you and your creations. Greetings from Argentina
I am a practicioner of Vajrayana Buddhism and practically everything you're saying about ritual maps perfectly on the practices of Tantra, which are basically about playfully rehearsing the state of Enlightenment by identifying oneself with a deity through imaginative visualization and ritualized actions and recitations (mantra). I have also been quite amazed by the convergences of Tantra and theurgic Platonism (Gregory Shaw has also written on this).
If I may put in: Master Xún (298-238 b.c.e.) already stated (paraphrased): "Ritual is deep, and mysterious, indeed..." (Catherine Bell) Ritual got the attention of cultural-anthropologists since the beginnings. What regards the historio-genetic overlappings: They may be interpreted as the result of some "universal tendencies" in human "conscious-being" (Dasein), unfolding during the so called "axial age" (Karl Jaspers, "Achsenzeit") - seems quite sound to me, especially since there has been some notable intercultural exchange at least since the times of Alexander the Great and his Eastern expeditions.
It is great to see all of this work coming together. I am grateful for everone who has added along the way.
On Point. First person perspective is upside down and now, that this world is getting to be right side up, it is the third person perspective that holds the truth of LIFE!🔱♾️💫 Meaning, has nothing to do with words…
Forwards And Upwards
Dr. V., I'm new to your work. Are you familiar with the Spiritual Exercises of Saint Ignatius Loyola? I think that you would find it very interesting.
If you explain ritual, do you not by the same measure remove it's potential?
So I’m hearing that rationality is kinda the same as cognitive flexibility. Something is deemed “rational” is if enhances flexibility and opening as opposed to rigidity and stuckness. Am I off-course here Gentlemen, with equating the terms?
❤️🙏🏽
Not sure if this is right either, rational as balance between culture and wild, that centers and allows oneself in the world. When focused upon and entered into with ritual and practice. This in particular centering the individual in the group and that group in humanity as one object or gradient among the others on the planet, displaying intelligence to grow wisdom. Which might loop back to rationality as the safe space for such.
I would say it is cognitive flexibility in service of systemically and systematically overcoming self deception and enhancing fittedness/connection to oneself, others, the world, and the ultimate.
@@johnvervaeke I guess I’m very much through the lens of the ACT training that I’m currently doing. Expanding that is helpful. Thanks John.
He is very sophisticated in his explanation as to why we should all take up Warhammer 40K as a hobby..... Ritual I mean.
Thanks John ❤ What do you think about fasting as a practise for transformation?
I think there is good reason to think it is transformative if done in moderation.
@@johnvervaeke Thank you for your response 🙏 I really appreciate it. Bless your heart.
John, this may be a naive question, but I have been getting into BOTH your content and some of the various other sacred lineages… Are you familiar with the concepts of cosmo-erotic humanism? If so, how does it differ in application and effectiveness compared to transcendent naturalism?
I was just wondering about a story, fairy tale and particularly myth ;haven’t our past rituals etc and all the ways of knowing been embedded within a story line or myth , imaginal but experienced as real -,so where’s the story or is there no need for one , or am I missing the point?
"Gnosticism" is an umbrella term that covers a wide range of beliefs. In its most basic form, Gnosticism is the anti-creedal sentiment that one can reach a transcendental state through non-revelatory knowledge gained through theurgical rituals and practices. Because personal revelation by faith and not works is excluded from your four types of knowing (and the ritualism aka dialogos) is my guess why you are being labeled a Gnostic.
To be honest, I am bewildered by the n o r m a t i v e "bias" seeping ever stronger into a project, which seems to have started as "strict science". Don´t know what do make of this. I personally would like to see/hear more of the latter. Well, let´s wait and see... -Regards
Science presupposed rationality which is Botha descriptive and normative term. Trying to keep the normative out of strict science means that a scientific worldview will never ground rationality nor science itself. This is a performative contradiction. See Casebeer’s Natural Ethical Facts and Putnam’s The Collapse of the Fact/Value distinction. I have argued that relevance realization is also an explanatory and a normative concept.
@@johnvervaeke Thank You very much for Your kind reply. Most probably I understand "science" in a slightly different way - very much inspired a) by Joseph Needham´s idea of "scientific universalism", as well as by the phenomenological movement in the vein of Edmund Husserl, from the Western side, and b) by East Asian studies, from the Eastern side. Somehow, I would even propose that "rationality" (no such word in traditional Chinese thinking, which does not mean they had no "calculus", "measure", and so forth, but it was mostly left implicit) emanates, resp. somehow arises from something like an primordial scientific attitude (based on the ur-event of aletheia á la Heidegger). And it seems to me as somehow morally colourless, as at least partially belonging to a different register.
What regards "old school religions", as well as some "big theories", I would like to take a deep dive into all the intricacies, connected with the different "stream systems" (H. Küng) of "religion" én generale and én detail.
[One rather personal remark: Some YT-channels, like MythVision, and HistoryValley, unexpcetedly functioned for me as kinda "repetitorium", which shed some interesting new lights (sometimes in much detail) on "religion" as such, as well as on mainly Near Eastern (Egypt, Greece, Israel, Mespotamia etc.) "old schools" - but also on some "new" - and their genesis, how they were created/concstructed, were developed, and so forth. They added to a very variegated picture...]
It´s not easy to explain all this with a few words. At least, I hope these few remarks helped for some clarification regarding, maybe, some points of difference.
But sure, all these topics are difficult ones, multidimensional-polyvalent, a "vast field": "science", "religion", "science and religion", and so forth. And, as an old Chinese saying goes: "The aim is high, the way is long!"
-Regards
Thank you for the wonderful discussion. I sampled just a little of this particular video - ua-cam.com/video/hhsHL53EW78/v-deo.html
Hmm. Lots of jargon and missing the point. Maybe having this level of speculative dance-about works with chicks.
If you would shave your beard and have skinheads you would be much more powerful people...
Delilah in disguise. 😀