@@kevincgustafson that sounds like no fun at all. Well apart from the "being in space" bit. Weren't they just sitting in seats with no room to move around?
You were not kidding with the whole "If History Had Gone Different". Never in my life have I witnessed a Titan 3 or 4 ignite the core on the ground. Bizzaroworld
this seems really similar to the Soviet N1 moon mission, as in a 2 man mission, 1 goes on EVA into the lander and lands all alone on the moon in a tiny lander while the other stays in orbit
No it really is not. The N1 worked basicly the same way as the Apollo mission, only difference being the crew was smaller by one, if that makes any difference, and they EVA'd rather than docked to the lander. This is way different from both of them, as they do the trans-lunar injection with a "space tug", rather than under their own power. Albeit I see the similarities.
I had done a couple of missions, in KSP, with a similar concept to the first Gemini lunar Mission. Rather than dumping the trans-lunar stage once in Lunar orbit, it was kept connected and used to circularize the orbit. Then, later used again to boost back home. The crewed portion would still have its thrusters and fuel, but in this case it was as a backup, if there had been issues with booster stage working. Heh, maybe in some other alternate history I guess. Keep up the great presentations!
Fantastic video and narrations! Well done! It's fun to see a peak at an alternate history where moon landing is done by alternate vehicles like this. You did a great job at simulating it on KSP too.
i didnt think that the gemini would have enough fuel for a trans earth injection. the heatshield would have to be modified too since it will be entering the atmosphere at a much higher speed than normal
Correct! The Centaur really needed to be able to make three burns even with Gemini making the circularization burn. Centaur didn’t really have the fuel capacity as originally designed and still maintain margins. Also, the Gemini prop module would have been used to slow the craft before re-entry to reduce the load on the heat shield, which still needed a serious upgrade. And that’s just the issues with the orbital mission! In the end, underestimated fuel needs, ever increasing cost and weight and good old internal politics were what shot the idea down.
Yeah i was thinking about that. You need about 1800ms delta-v to circularize the moon and return home. I doubt the tiny gemini service module would have that much fuel, let alone with the lander attached. There was a reason for the SaturnV to be that big.
Leonov ends up returning form another mission on his way, he spots the astronaut who is in disbelief, leonov with a happy expression waves over before going on his way
Were the Gemini thrusters enough to "break" lunar orbit and head home? Wouldn't it have been more realistic to re-dock with the Centaur to do that job?
The major flaw in this mission proposal was the Gemini heat shield would have needed significant (if not impossible) upgrade to withstand the reentry speed. Also note, in the Kerbal video, the Gemini didn't impact the water "end down" but "side down" since it wasn't float stable the way it’s shown.
Interesting that the EOR concept with an RL-10 based upper stage is currently being argued as a better alternative to SLS using FH or DIV heavy. This time, there is no limited space argument though.
SLS has the advantage of being DONE. First one is already stacked at Cape, and other ones are being built. Cancelling it now would be a huge waste of money.
Excellent video! I've always liked the Gemini Lander - was it to be called the Cricket? - and you captured its look perfectly. Although I do appreciate a docking system in the lander would have added weight, I can't help but wonder how the astronaut could return to the Gemini CM without the two craft being docked? Unless they were going to develop rocket packs like Jeb & Co have, making the jump from the lander to the Gemini looks like a dodgy exercise to me. But, hey... what do I know? Anyway, your video was really first class, and you're really good at the narration too, so kudos all round!
Trans Lunar Injection would be horribly uncomfortable for the crew. Hanging off their straps from the negative G. And with two seats right next to each other there's no way to move the seats. Another puzzlement I've had since I was a kid would be exasperated by a long duration mission (especially the fortnight missions) would be defecation! It must've been bad enough with Apollo. But at least you've got some room to move &/or the LEM at times. But Gemini? After two weeks in that tiny cabin you'd know your companion very, very well!
Was it a Centaur-Agena? I believe it would use the Centaur to get to the Moon and the Agena-Gemini would separate and use the Agena to circularize and to boost back to Earth
Oddly I just found this video and I have notes on such a "Gemini to the Moon" program AH where LBJ is President and Kennedy VP during the run up to all this. LBJ authorizes Apollo and then goes to meet his fate in Dallas. JFK being less than enthused by the cost of Apollo in fact leaps on Conrad's idea though it of course (as Webb predicted it might) takes longer and ends up costing more than suggested. Still, by 1968 the US manages to launch Armstrong and Aldrin on a direct flight using a modified Saturn 1B to put a Gemini lander and two men on the surface of the Moon though how they 'solve' some of the inherent issues with the mission are I think novel and creative... Now if I'd just write the damn thing up and post it :) Couple of points of course to late to do any good but... :) The Titan/Centaur launch only shows the second stage of the Titan performing the orbital burn. While the Titan III did have a "trans-stage" it wasn't actually a full up 'stage' really so maybe that's what you were meaning? I have to point out that this would NEVER remain a secret for any length of time as the Soviets among others, (heck amateur radio enthusiasts were tracking all the Apollo flights all the way to the Moon) would have radar tracked the flights and no one would have a real reason to keep things secret even if the Air Force could have kept their mouths shut. (Unlikely in the extreme :) )
The Agena module could do it if they added fuel tanks for the round trip. All public Agena modules did not come with enough fuel for a round trip. The tanks were very modular, spherical in shape. They could place them almost anywhere on the craft.
Using the Gemini spacecraft to go to the moon would not have been an issue, the problem is the configuration of the service module to make the flight. The configuration you used here on your simulation was that for Earth orbit, had they used Gemini to go to the moon, the Service Module would have, at the very least functioned like the Apollo SM did, in other words, it would have had been a propulsion module. While I can't say one way or another of Gemini's thrusters could have broke it out of lunar orbit and sent it on a return flight to Earth. It would have happened eventually, even if they had to swing around the moon several times, what they would not have had enough of was fuel. The UA-cam channel Vintage Space addressed this subject a few years back, and even has some of the proposed designs for a Service Module. ua-cam.com/video/0spmj_0Un4k/v-deo.html
That Gemini capsule must've been rather cramped for such a long journey...
Not with a single seat :P
@@quantumx9729 the lander has one seat, the Gemini would still have 2.
Sure, but crews did 14 day missions in Gemini in LEO.
@@kevincgustafson that sounds like no fun at all. Well apart from the "being in space" bit. Weren't they just sitting in seats with no room to move around?
@@Forest_Fifer Basically. But they did it *in space*
Amazing, I had no idea something like this was ever even considered.
It wasn´t :) An other "Big Gemini" was ± designed.. Apollo won the approval.
@@yves2348 if there are blueprints, it was considered...
Indeed. Never got off the drawing board, but had it been done? Very daring.
well the Titan III C was tested
It was too small. It could get a man to the Moon, but not much else. Apollo could do some surface science.
You were not kidding with the whole "If History Had Gone Different". Never in my life have I witnessed a Titan 3 or 4 ignite the core on the ground. Bizzaroworld
this seems really similar to the Soviet N1 moon mission, as in a 2 man mission, 1 goes on EVA into the lander and lands all alone on the moon in a tiny lander while the other stays in orbit
at least the soviet lander was bigger
No it really is not. The N1 worked basicly the same way as the Apollo mission, only difference being the crew was smaller by one, if that makes any difference, and they EVA'd rather than docked to the lander. This is way different from both of them, as they do the trans-lunar injection with a "space tug", rather than under their own power. Albeit I see the similarities.
I heard about this the other day, I’m so pumped to see you do it justice!
I had done a couple of missions, in KSP, with a similar concept to the first Gemini lunar Mission. Rather than dumping the trans-lunar stage once in Lunar orbit, it was kept connected and used to circularize the orbit. Then, later used again to boost back home. The crewed portion would still have its thrusters and fuel, but in this case it was as a backup, if there had been issues with booster stage working. Heh, maybe in some other alternate history I guess. Keep up the great presentations!
The hydrolox fuel in the centaur stage would have boiled off, making it not feasible to use to circularise around the moon
Fantastic video and narrations! Well done!
It's fun to see a peak at an alternate history where moon landing is done by alternate vehicles like this. You did a great job at simulating it on KSP too.
Thanks!
i didnt think that the gemini would have enough fuel for a trans earth injection. the heatshield would have to be modified too since it will be entering the atmosphere at a much higher speed than normal
Correct! The Centaur really needed to be able to make three burns even with Gemini making the circularization burn. Centaur didn’t really have the fuel capacity as originally designed and still maintain margins. Also, the Gemini prop module would have been used to slow the craft before re-entry to reduce the load on the heat shield, which still needed a serious upgrade. And that’s just the issues with the orbital mission! In the end, underestimated fuel needs, ever increasing cost and weight and good old internal politics were what shot the idea down.
Yeah i was thinking about that. You need about 1800ms delta-v to circularize the moon and return home. I doubt the tiny gemini service module would have that much fuel, let alone with the lander attached. There was a reason for the SaturnV to be that big.
@@MateusViccari 1800m/s? Isn't it more like 900 m/s
@@5000mahmud yes, I was also counting the moon escape burn
@@MateusViccari I see.
Good to see you again ...doing this kind of videos
And casually after landing the astronaut noticed the presence of an LK lander on the distance and realized Leonov was the first one...
Leonov ends up returning form another mission on his way, he spots the astronaut who is in disbelief, leonov with a happy expression waves over before going on his way
Hey did you come across a direct return version of this mission in your research? I swear I saw that at one point but have not since
www.astronautix.com/g/geminilunargemini.html
Your videos are dope, dude.
Thanks!
I've been waiting for a video like this for soo long!
TLI must have been very uncomfortable to astronauts. Minutes of negative G:s. Makes me sick to even think about it.
Gemini was just an amazing workhorse of a platform that I wish had continued to be used. Heck Big Gemini would still be awesome today!
Were the Gemini thrusters enough to "break" lunar orbit and head home? Wouldn't it have been more realistic to re-dock with the Centaur to do that job?
The centaur would have crashed into the moon.
No, the Gemini thrusters would have been sufficient as lunar gravity is not as strong as earth's
It kinda reminds me of the early Soyuz design for a circumlunar mission, the Soyuz A.
2:55 INACCURACY: the SRBs on the Titan did most of the work till right before cut off and the LR-87 was ignited at 10 seconds prior to Booster burnout
Fair Enough
Did this boosters+ LR-87 config ever fly during Gemini missions?
@@Nszewczak Not with crew onboard. A Titan IIIC launched Gemini MOL (gemini 2 capsule, first to be reflown) into orbit
The major flaw in this mission proposal was the Gemini heat shield would have needed significant (if not impossible) upgrade to withstand the reentry speed. Also note, in the Kerbal video, the Gemini didn't impact the water "end down" but "side down" since it wasn't float stable the way it’s shown.
Aww the landers so cute! Its probably no bigger than a mercury capsule from the look of it.
Also is the lander based on any real designs?
15:52 whoa, whoa! That's a scary de-orbit burn!
: D
Not complaining about the ISS episodes but it's nice to have something new and relatively unknown on here
Really interesting idea…had wondered about this being a possibility for a long time.
Interesting that the EOR concept with an RL-10 based upper stage is currently being argued as a better alternative to SLS using FH or DIV heavy. This time, there is no limited space argument though.
I don't usually support cancel culture, but if there's one thing that should be canceled, it's the SLS.
We can get to the moon with existing launch vehicles!!!!
@@t.mitchell9135 Yes, we likely can(which was my point). We still have no lander option, but there are several in development.
SLS has the advantage of being DONE. First one is already stacked at Cape, and other ones are being built. Cancelling it now would be a huge waste of money.
I can't think of much things worse than going to the moon and back in such a cramped spacecraft.
Excellent video! I've always liked the Gemini Lander - was it to be called the Cricket? - and you captured its look perfectly.
Although I do appreciate a docking system in the lander would have added weight, I can't help but wonder how the astronaut could return to the Gemini CM without the two craft being docked? Unless they were going to develop rocket packs like Jeb & Co have, making the jump from the lander to the Gemini looks like a dodgy exercise to me. But, hey... what do I know?
Anyway, your video was really first class, and you're really good at the narration too, so kudos all round!
imagine if this had actually happened , and its just remained a secret
I have watched this like 4 times. I like your voice. The video is also cool.
Thanks!
Its nice to have alternate space stuff on the channel again, the ISS stuff got a bit samey no offence
It will be very budget version of Apollo and LM spacecrafts. Too risky and uncomfortable. No room for scientific experiments at all.
Trans Lunar Injection would be horribly uncomfortable for the crew. Hanging off their straps from the negative G. And with two seats right next to each other there's no way to move the seats.
Another puzzlement I've had since I was a kid would be exasperated by a long duration mission (especially the fortnight missions) would be defecation! It must've been bad enough with Apollo. But at least you've got some room to move &/or the LEM at times.
But Gemini? After two weeks in that tiny cabin you'd know your companion very, very well!
Hi! Was Curious What Mod You Used For The Lander. Great Video
It's in the FASA pack I believe
Was it a Centaur-Agena? I believe it would use the Centaur to get to the Moon and the Agena-Gemini would separate and use the Agena to circularize and to boost back to Earth
its centaur target man
Oddly I just found this video and I have notes on such a "Gemini to the Moon" program AH where LBJ is President and Kennedy VP during the run up to all this. LBJ authorizes Apollo and then goes to meet his fate in Dallas. JFK being less than enthused by the cost of Apollo in fact leaps on Conrad's idea though it of course (as Webb predicted it might) takes longer and ends up costing more than suggested. Still, by 1968 the US manages to launch Armstrong and Aldrin on a direct flight using a modified Saturn 1B to put a Gemini lander and two men on the surface of the Moon though how they 'solve' some of the inherent issues with the mission are I think novel and creative... Now if I'd just write the damn thing up and post it :)
Couple of points of course to late to do any good but... :) The Titan/Centaur launch only shows the second stage of the Titan performing the orbital burn. While the Titan III did have a "trans-stage" it wasn't actually a full up 'stage' really so maybe that's what you were meaning? I have to point out that this would NEVER remain a secret for any length of time as the Soviets among others, (heck amateur radio enthusiasts were tracking all the Apollo flights all the way to the Moon) would have radar tracked the flights and no one would have a real reason to keep things secret even if the Air Force could have kept their mouths shut. (Unlikely in the extreme :) )
Why the secrecy? Certainly not after all this time.
Would the Gemini ‘s onboard thrusters really had been enough to break out of lunar orbit and send the craft back to earth?
Would the EVA from the lander back to the Gemini capsule really have been untethered? That seems exceedingly dangerous.
I mean, the person in Gemini capsule could have just scooted over to the person in the lander in case something went wrong
What would you say if i had footage of this mission?
This is a lovely video
Thanks!
Great video!
Where did those landing legs come from?
FASA
Why were the landi legs not left on the moon?
Or Use the Big Gemini
I asked if you needed to poop before we left😂
Can you make any video about sattelite launches?
I love this videos in special what if
How do you get these texture
Based on what you said, for all we know...this could’ve happened.
I didn't know Gemini had the fuel to decelerate and orbit the moon, and return.
The Agena module could do it if they added fuel tanks for the round trip. All public Agena modules did not come with enough fuel for a round trip. The tanks were very modular, spherical in shape. They could place them almost anywhere on the craft.
Using the Gemini spacecraft to go to the moon would not have been an issue, the problem is the configuration of the service module to make the flight. The configuration you used here on your simulation was that for Earth orbit, had they used Gemini to go to the moon, the Service Module would have, at the very least functioned like the Apollo SM did, in other words, it would have had been a propulsion module. While I can't say one way or another of Gemini's thrusters could have broke it out of lunar orbit and sent it on a return flight to Earth. It would have happened eventually, even if they had to swing around the moon several times, what they would not have had enough of was fuel.
The UA-cam channel Vintage Space addressed this subject a few years back, and even has some of the proposed designs for a Service Module. ua-cam.com/video/0spmj_0Un4k/v-deo.html
Interesting but if your “BBQ roll” was as illustrated the crew would not survive ten minutes (see Gemini 8 Armstrong -Scott)
It's sped up. But good note.
Compared to Apollo missions this looks quite rudimental.
You keep jumping back and forth between the indicative and subjunctive moods. Pick one and stay with it.
"If History Had Gone Differently" necessitates such a switch
min 2:56
it's a titan 4
this is interesting
Hell yeah
At least he pronounces Gemini (GEM-IN-I) correctly...Unlike SOME other people... *coughN9cough*
AMAZINGNES!!!
Hello
Early, but not first
EDIT: i actually am first lol
Yes you are first
What is this!? A history of the US space program for insomniacs?
I am the 1000th like
I dont remember liked yhis