NOTE: The June 2024 rules update reworked how the Grenades stratagem works; it now cannot be used from a unit if that unit advanced for fell back that turn, and both range and LOS must be drawn from a single model. In addition, the Putrifier ability was rewritten to simply give a free use of the stratagem from his unit.
I have a question. I know that now the grenade rule has been changed and so the quesion is more about the base rules. Before the change Goonhammer said that if you have an attached unit of plague marines and biologus you colud throw two grenades in the same phase ("Even a five-man unit with a Putrifier can pack a nasty punch, wheeling into an enemy, throwing two grenades at them for an average of 6 mortal wounds, then charging in and landing another 2-5 unsaved power fist wounds to crack open targets of moderate size."). One targetting the PM and the other targetting the Biologus with the free stratagem. But I cannot understand why you could do it, because the ability said "you can target this model with the grenade stratagem... even if you have already targeted a different unit with that stratagem this phase". But the attached unit doesn't count as a single one? Or for the stratagem purpouse they still count as two separate? I have the same problem with Aeldari. If you have an attached unit you can reroll two hit rolls and two wound rolls (one for the character, the other for the bodyguards) or just one?
LOS and distance from different models makes sense in lore. Sergeant says “Private, throw your grenade 8 meters just behind the wall!” Something that can’t be done with a gun.
The Biologus attaches to the Plague Marines who also have the Grenades keyword so the unit is still a greande unit. There's no issue here that I can see.
The unit is a Grenade unit to use the Grenade Stratagem. Correct. On Biologus ability it say "this model" not "this model's unit". Meaning Biologus can individually throw a Grenade from that model's position, not any other model within the unit from their position. That said, someone can LOS for Biologus to throw from Biologus's position. In my opinion. So I don't know if we are in agreement or disagreement on that. Or if that was your point but worded differently.
He was saying there is an ability that makes the lone op 6” instead of 12”. I understand tho, he talks SUPER fast and it’s kind of hard to keep up sometimes
Once the Putrifier joins a unit, doesn't the newly formed "attached unit" gain all the keywords of every model in the unit, therfore enabling it to be targeted by Grenade Strat?
Yep! That's the case for any unit with individual Grenade models attached - Plague Marines already have grenades tho so it's not necessary in this case
Have you considered that the biologius is,as stated in the rules, an "attached unit". Attached to a bodyguard unit. And is therefore still a "unit" when it is attached so the key word triggers for the free strat still work fine.
except the ability doesn't trigger when the unit is targeted; on the *model* Grenades doesn't target specific models, so the only time it would work is if the putrifier is alone by himself
@TacticalTortoise that's what I'm saying tho. The biologius is still an attached "unit" so still tagetable by the strat when in a unit. Agree that LOS and range would be measured from the character not the unit in this instance.
Would love for you to do one of these on Tank Shock. I still see people saying you have to use it before making a charge roll and still haven't heard an explanation of why that makes sense given the wording.
Because the effect portion of the strat says after your unit ends a charge move. There's a decent argument to be made that if you've already completed your completed your charge move before playing the strat, you can't have completed a charge to create the effect after playing it. I personally don't care - I play it how whatever event I'm going to next rules it, but that is the logic typically used.
@@Epardon But rolling the charge and making the charge move are separate steps of the charge phase per the core rules. Per the strat timing and that effect clause you should be able to roll the charge, decide to use tank shock, then complete the charge move, triggering the tank shock effect. This is why I don’t understand the “end of charge move effect” argument.
To be clear, I’m not trying to argue with anyone. I’m just trying to fill my blind spot on some secret 40K rules logic that I’m missing. I feel like I have a pretty good handle on the rules and a lot of the weird and rare interactions, but this one cannot penetrate my thick skull.
Normally, you don't have to see your enemy to throw a nade at him, so there's nothing strange in it. You use nades to deal with enemy, without the need to get into his sights.
Unless I've missed something, the Reductus Saboteur isn't limited to using his free grenade once per battle like the Putrifier, he just has the restriction on how many uses of the stratagem per phase that the Putrifier doesn't have. Other than that, I found all the targeting info the video makes clear really interesting. I don't find the odd interactions with reactive abilities or targeting to be a bad thing though - either they are such fringe cases it's very rarely going to be an issue (Changeling), or makes sense otherwise - other commenters have pointed out that grenades makes sense to be thrown in a direction even without direct line of sight from the thrower, and a grenade throw would probably disrupt a unit enough that they couldn't use their tricks effectively.
The putrifier’s ability literally says you can target the model with the Grenade Stratagem. How on earth does anyone think that is somehow overridden by the general wording of the stratagem itself that refers to units?
Yes this is exactly how I read it. You are targeting this model (Putrifier) with the grenade stratagem. So I take this model (Putrifier) and throw a grenade…. Seems simple to me.
Regarding the Death Guard unit vs model, don't the rules specify that attached units share the keywords of the leader? In that case, the whole unit would have the grenade keyword after attaching the Putrifier to it, right?
It's true that units share keywords that the individual models have (but each model has their own keywords for when it matters), but regular Plague Marines have Grenades anyway so in this case the sharing is unecessary
Didn't hear you mention it, but you also aren't limited by how many models in the unit. I had a unit of 2 guys huck a whole pay load of grenades at my unit. It was glorious and I hope this strat doesn't change.
I wish they'd make some sense of consistency for Grenade models. Csm cultists get access to the grenades keyword but tsons cultists do not? Theyre the same fucking model
I just want to ask to get this clear. So if I have a 20 man squad of guardsmen does that mean I have to role 20 dice. But if I have leaders in that unit as well do I get more dice as they are then classed as on squad?
No...? Tbh I'm not really sure what you're referring to. Grenade always roll the same number of dice, regardless of who's throwing them or what they're thrown at.
@@TacticalTortoise I am just asking how many dice do I through when using grenades. Is it just one dice for the unit or is it a dice for each model in the unit.
Comment for a critique- 2min - I struggled to decide if you were saying you could they are" AN eligible target" , or if you were saying IN- eligible target. I decided that given the context, you were saying the first.
Can you really throw a grenade and then shoot? The Stratagem says 'has not been selected to shoot this phase' and not 'hasn't YET been selected to shoot this phase'.
30 years of rules-writing experience and we still get stuff like this. Its almost like they dont know what theyre doing, or dont care. And we complain about it every edition and nothing ever changes.
I am a little confused because I thought ranged abilities that dealt damage were treated as a regular attack and would trigger abilities like blood surge. What is the key difference between me shooting a unit with blood surge and throwing a grenade or vortex of dooming it?
Because they aren't attacks, damage dealt by abilities or stratagems are not classified as attacks. It's why doom bolt or vortex can still hit lone operatives
It's a little confusing because some things (like Vortex of Doom) are categorized as "Psychic Attacks", which is maybe the worst terminology ever. They still aren't attacks, because they don't go through the attack sequence (taget, hit, would, save, damage etc.) - basically the same has having a vehicle explode on you. But a lot of people get mixed up because of the 'psychic attack' thing, which is just there to clarify their interaction with Psychic Hoods.
we see it in everything from games to movies. those who make this dont know wtf they are doing, and mostly comes down to they are not themself hobbiest or players of what they are working with,
The Saboteur isnt once per game, it is one per turn. You are mixing up the mine and the grenade. I dont understand, you make a video about the wording intricacies of GW grenade rules and can't read a simple paragraph :-S How ironic.
I will get this question from my game group so, where can i find that you measure from the 2 closes models between units? And does this also count for imperial guard orders (the Officier is part of a unit)
No; orders are issued from the Officer *model*. Closest-to-closest only applies when measuring from unit to unit. So an officer would measure from the officer model to the closest model in the target unit
You are telling me GW has been to incompetent to fix this for multiple editions now ? I just don't know if it's incompetence, being lazy or just trolling at this point. Why does 40k have so many clown rules ?
NOTE: The June 2024 rules update reworked how the Grenades stratagem works; it now cannot be used from a unit if that unit advanced for fell back that turn, and both range and LOS must be drawn from a single model.
In addition, the Putrifier ability was rewritten to simply give a free use of the stratagem from his unit.
I have a question. I know that now the grenade rule has been changed and so the quesion is more about the base rules. Before the change Goonhammer said that if you have an attached unit of plague marines and biologus you colud throw two grenades in the same phase ("Even a five-man unit with a Putrifier can pack a nasty punch, wheeling into an enemy, throwing two grenades at them for an average of 6 mortal wounds, then charging in and landing another 2-5 unsaved power fist wounds to crack open targets of moderate size."). One targetting the PM and the other targetting the Biologus with the free stratagem. But I cannot understand why you could do it, because the ability said "you can target this model with the grenade stratagem... even if you have already targeted a different unit with that stratagem this phase". But the attached unit doesn't count as a single one? Or for the stratagem purpouse they still count as two separate? I have the same problem with Aeldari. If you have an attached unit you can reroll two hit rolls and two wound rolls (one for the character, the other for the bodyguards) or just one?
LOS and distance from different models makes sense in lore. Sergeant says “Private, throw your grenade 8 meters just behind the wall!” Something that can’t be done with a gun.
Agreed. It's pretty obvious
It could just be a shot with an indirect weapon.
I confess, I'm really not seeing the issue. Grenades work exactly as stated; there is a single unit with a bent rule. Big whoop.
The Biologus attaches to the Plague Marines who also have the Grenades keyword so the unit is still a greande unit. There's no issue here that I can see.
The unit is a Grenade unit to use the Grenade Stratagem. Correct.
On Biologus ability it say "this model" not "this model's unit". Meaning Biologus can individually throw a Grenade from that model's position, not any other model within the unit from their position.
That said, someone can LOS for Biologus to throw from Biologus's position. In my opinion.
So I don't know if we are in agreement or disagreement on that. Or if that was your point but worded differently.
3:40 Grenades wouldn't care about Lone Operative anyway, since if you're within 8" to throw grenades you're also within 12" to ignore Lone Operative.
He was saying there is an ability that makes the lone op 6” instead of 12”. I understand tho, he talks SUPER fast and it’s kind of hard to keep up sometimes
@@zombiefishers Vanguard Tyranid stratagem for Lone Opperative unit like lictor
The dg character just passes the grenade to the guy in range.
Once the Putrifier joins a unit, doesn't the newly formed "attached unit" gain all the keywords of every model in the unit, therfore enabling it to be targeted by Grenade Strat?
This is correct. Can find the info under “keywords” in the rules commentary.
Yep! That's the case for any unit with individual Grenade models attached - Plague Marines already have grenades tho so it's not necessary in this case
It's actually pretty uncanny how closely this game mechanic matches the actual use of grenades in the field
Have you considered that the biologius is,as stated in the rules, an "attached unit". Attached to a bodyguard unit. And is therefore still a "unit" when it is attached so the key word triggers for the free strat still work fine.
except the ability doesn't trigger when the unit is targeted; on the *model*
Grenades doesn't target specific models, so the only time it would work is if the putrifier is alone by himself
@TacticalTortoise that's what I'm saying tho. The biologius is still an attached "unit" so still tagetable by the strat when in a unit. Agree that LOS and range would be measured from the character not the unit in this instance.
Would love for you to do one of these on Tank Shock. I still see people saying you have to use it before making a charge roll and still haven't heard an explanation of why that makes sense given the wording.
@@Jason-wh7in I agree completely.
Because the effect portion of the strat says after your unit ends a charge move.
There's a decent argument to be made that if you've already completed your completed your charge move before playing the strat, you can't have completed a charge to create the effect after playing it.
I personally don't care - I play it how whatever event I'm going to next rules it, but that is the logic typically used.
@@Epardon But rolling the charge and making the charge move are separate steps of the charge phase per the core rules. Per the strat timing and that effect clause you should be able to roll the charge, decide to use tank shock, then complete the charge move, triggering the tank shock effect.
This is why I don’t understand the “end of charge move effect” argument.
To be clear, I’m not trying to argue with anyone. I’m just trying to fill my blind spot on some secret 40K rules logic that I’m missing. I feel like I have a pretty good handle on the rules and a lot of the weird and rare interactions, but this one cannot penetrate my thick skull.
Some people are just addicted to rules lawyering.
Normally, you don't have to see your enemy to throw a nade at him, so there's nothing strange in it.
You use nades to deal with enemy, without the need to get into his sights.
I still can't figure out why it has to target a unit that hasn't shot yet. If you can shoot after what difference does it make?
I think they figured it would be too powerful as a problem solver
"Oh you survived on 1? I'll just throw a grenade"
I’ve watched dozens of your videos, this one finally made me subscribe - I learned that much Keep it up!
Glad you found it helpful!
We Luv Grenades, Chat!!!
Units gain all keywords from attached characters. So..... it's a non-issue.
Unless I've missed something, the Reductus Saboteur isn't limited to using his free grenade once per battle like the Putrifier, he just has the restriction on how many uses of the stratagem per phase that the Putrifier doesn't have.
Other than that, I found all the targeting info the video makes clear really interesting. I don't find the odd interactions with reactive abilities or targeting to be a bad thing though - either they are such fringe cases it's very rarely going to be an issue (Changeling), or makes sense otherwise - other commenters have pointed out that grenades makes sense to be thrown in a direction even without direct line of sight from the thrower, and a grenade throw would probably disrupt a unit enough that they couldn't use their tricks effectively.
I agree with you on this. :)
Yeah that's a good callout; Saboteurs can definitely use theirs multiple times whereas the Putrifier is restricted to one.
The putrifier’s ability literally says you can target the model with the Grenade Stratagem. How on earth does anyone think that is somehow overridden by the general wording of the stratagem itself that refers to units?
Yes this is exactly how I read it. You are targeting this model (Putrifier) with the grenade stratagem. So I take this model (Putrifier) and throw a grenade…. Seems simple to me.
So does the grenade strat count as an attack for purposes of say the Reactive Reprisal strat from the Votann?
Regarding the Death Guard unit vs model, don't the rules specify that attached units share the keywords of the leader?
In that case, the whole unit would have the grenade keyword after attaching the Putrifier to it, right?
It's true that units share keywords that the individual models have (but each model has their own keywords for when it matters), but regular Plague Marines have Grenades anyway so in this case the sharing is unecessary
Didn't hear you mention it, but you also aren't limited by how many models in the unit. I had a unit of 2 guys huck a whole pay load of grenades at my unit. It was glorious and I hope this strat doesn't change.
Grenades from infantry squads that are down to a model or two never fail to be a surprise source of damage.
All of this just made my head hurt
I wish they'd make some sense of consistency for Grenade models. Csm cultists get access to the grenades keyword but tsons cultists do not? Theyre the same fucking model
Can i use grenades more than once per turn? With a different unit for example?
Stratagems can only be used once each phase, unless you have a special ability (like the Putrifier)
Can blast weapons be shot at a vihicle that is within engagement range of my infantry unit, or is this still a no no?
It's a no no
I just want to ask to get this clear. So if I have a 20 man squad of guardsmen does that mean I have to role 20 dice. But if I have leaders in that unit as well do I get more dice as they are then classed as on squad?
No...? Tbh I'm not really sure what you're referring to.
Grenade always roll the same number of dice, regardless of who's throwing them or what they're thrown at.
@@TacticalTortoise I am just asking how many dice do I through when using grenades. Is it just one dice for the unit or is it a dice for each model in the unit.
Nice video as always!!
Can i target an unit for the Grenade Stratagem a unit that haven't shot yet AND THEN shoot with the same unit?
Yes you can then shoot with them, absolutely nothing says otherwise.
@@alnilam8933 Is there something written somewhere that I can show?
I'm not seeing the big issue here. You chuck a grenade at someone.
Grenades could easily be an assault weapon with indirect fire, but clearly they wanted to limit its uses per game.
Surely they just correct the strat to select one grenade model, and that sorts all of those problems out?
Idk do you trust that? Last time they tried to fix something they put out 10th Ed
Comment for a critique- 2min - I struggled to decide if you were saying you could they are" AN eligible target" , or if you were saying IN- eligible target.
I decided that given the context, you were saying the first.
Can you really throw a grenade and then shoot?
The Stratagem says 'has not been selected to shoot this phase' and not 'hasn't YET been selected to shoot this phase'.
Yes you can then shoot with them, absolutely nothing says otherwise.
30 years of rules-writing experience and we still get stuff like this. Its almost like they dont know what theyre doing, or dont care. And we complain about it every edition and nothing ever changes.
Incroyable.
They don't care. The rules are just there to help sell models. They'll tell you so themselves.
I’m at least 5% sure that most of the people working at GW now aren’t the same ones that designed Rogue Trader.
Anyone else get the Thanksgiving Nurgle virus?
I had it last week. :(
this guyyyyyy
I am a little confused because I thought ranged abilities that dealt damage were treated as a regular attack and would trigger abilities like blood surge. What is the key difference between me shooting a unit with blood surge and throwing a grenade or vortex of dooming it?
Because they aren't attacks, damage dealt by abilities or stratagems are not classified as attacks. It's why doom bolt or vortex can still hit lone operatives
OY, we are Orks, we ave bomsquiks, we dont care bout your silly umie rules
It's a little confusing because some things (like Vortex of Doom) are categorized as "Psychic Attacks", which is maybe the worst terminology ever.
They still aren't attacks, because they don't go through the attack sequence (taget, hit, would, save, damage etc.) - basically the same has having a vehicle explode on you.
But a lot of people get mixed up because of the 'psychic attack' thing, which is just there to clarify their interaction with Psychic Hoods.
@@sumsarpratOrks have bomb squigs and stikkbombs. The more explosions the better.
we see it in everything from games to movies. those who make this dont know wtf they are doing, and mostly comes down to they are not themself hobbiest or players of what they are working with,
Man, UA-cams got something against this one huh
O i thought this was another re-upload
The Saboteur isnt once per game, it is one per turn. You are mixing up the mine and the grenade. I dont understand, you make a video about the wording intricacies of GW grenade rules and can't read a simple paragraph :-S How ironic.
Calm down Alain. It really isn't that serious 😂😂
10th Ed is such a headache lmaoo
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@@nurglematthew893 reply.
I will get this question from my game group so, where can i find that you measure from the 2 closes models between units?
And does this also count for imperial guard orders (the Officier is part of a unit)
No; orders are issued from the Officer *model*. Closest-to-closest only applies when measuring from unit to unit.
So an officer would measure from the officer model to the closest model in the target unit
You are telling me GW has been to incompetent to fix this for multiple editions now ?
I just don't know if it's incompetence, being lazy or just trolling at this point. Why does 40k have so many clown rules ?