I just finished watching Season 2 again. Out of all the relationships in the show, this is the one that really stands out for me. Despite all the romance in the Tony/Preya, Echo/Paul, and Paul/Mellie story lines, the motherly attitude that Adelle has for Topher really adds so much to the show, and does so much to truly make the most of their characters.
I spent this scene with my mouth wide open. The acting in this scene made my eyes brim with tears. Topher is my favourite character and to see him even more childlike than before is just heartbreaking. This was wonderfully done; one of the best scenes in the episode and that's not easy.
Best part of this scene: it planted seeds of horror. In season two, back in the "present day," the still sane Topher starts saying "I know what I know" whenever his grip on reality starts to slip. So even if you don't like the character or care what happens to him, watching him unravel is still scary as it's a harbinger of the end of everything else.
Fran definitely deserves all the praise he gets for this scene, but my god, Olivia Williams. She is conveying soooo much shit with nothing. Lol. Like you can see the weight of her empathy for him and see her struggle with the choice to tell him the truth or not and it’s clearly something she’s had to do many times before and she knows regardless of what she says nothing can take that guilt from him. Brilliant acting. Say what you will about Joss, but the man can smell talent.
What this really highlights is our ability to develop technology, and our inability to defend against it. He's done something truly brilliant, but the brilliance surpassed his ability to rationalize and keep it controlled. "If I think I can make things work, is that curiosity or arrogance?", culminating with "I know what I know" over and over again... we have a brilliant man struggling to assert himself. Socrates said "The only thing I know is that I know nothing". So what does this tell us?
This scene is so beutiful and sad. Adelle and Topher have this mother/son thing going that can also be interpreted as lovers. "If I think figure things out is that curiosity or is that arrogance?" Topher to a T and a beutiful line. TY for putting this up.
I cannot watch this scene without crying. All through S1 I kept thinking when they were going to show Topher actually realize the other side of what he does. Fran pulls it off brilliantly. Both of them just break my heart.
"Why didn't I think of that?... Did I think of that?" I love love love Adelle and Topher. They had such great chemistry in "echoes" when they're both tripping. The two of them listening to Boyd play the piano and this bit from Epitaph One are far and away my favorite scenes in season one.
Oh well. Joss got cancelled this time. Pre-woke. Anti-woke. ?.. I know Joss got super arrogant, and too much "fun" with his status, but damn his writing is great. (I'm worried about The Nevers falling apart now. Those first 6 episodes are amazing!)
This is, without a doubt, the most phenomenal piece of philosophical content this show produced. Topher himself asks quite directly; is it better to pick up the phone, or not? He can't answer it. He's afraid to answer it, because in answering, he picks a side. Can any of you? ;)
Thank you for posting this :) Now I dont have to search through the episode for this scene. Its absolutely one of my favorites of the episode. Poor Topher. :( He's definitely one of my favorite characters.
Just like in the scene in the kitchen when "Victor" is talking about Rossomes plans and he tells Topher hes on the top of the list "to live forever" Topher is sooo quite in that scene it's creepy.
I knew it! I was thinking the same thing. And that made me even sadder. She's just waiting for him and leaning on that bar...oh gosh. It really gets to a person. And Topher...well that scene was sad and whoa for me because of the delivery of it all. I never would have expected it. Adelle and Topher have great chemistry. It's saddening.
@SpoofzRus The line is "If I think I can figure things out, is that curiosity or arrogance?" But I agree; it's one of the most powerful lines of the scene.
After watching this scene, i knew i would have been in for a real treat, might the show not have been cancelled. So many setups lead to this moment, well done again Whedon
I love Topher and seeing him like this and how in this finale season his breakdown finally made sense. They broke him and now he feels he's to blame, after he unknowingly created the end. BASTARDS! I can't believe it's canceled. This upsets me, this is like one of the best shows to grace television, even if it was only for two seasons. =(
Ohh, this scene is so sad... poor Topher; I cry every time I watch this... but I have to say, with actors this amazing and a show this phenomenal, created by someone as creative as Joss Whedon, why oh WHY would the series be cancelled???
It's on the dvd set, downloadable on itunes, and, of course through illegal download and illegal streaming. The episode title is "Epitaph One." Really awesome!
Fran Kranz does an amazing job in this scene and it really shows his abilities as an actor that he can make Topher's character do an unexpected 180 and make it believable.
So this is who Adelle really is when you strip away the ice-queen exterior. It's a shame we didn't get to see more of her soft side in the regular season episodes.
I never got the 'answering the phone' thing until I read the comics. for anyone who hasn't, that's how the world was wiped; Rossum wiped them when they answered their phones.
remember alpha uses a phone to wipe echo in the safecracker episode when you go back and rewatch you see so much stuff that didnt seem important at the time
@EPeters208 Hardly. He's in denial. He can barely remember he's the one responsible. Like a kid who accidentally broke his gaming console... Is what i think.
I would like to quote the tag line for the first season, "You can wipe away a memory, but can you wipe away a soul?' Echo is going to do her best to help people even without her memories because that's who she is. Caroline is just a sequence of memories, but they have a common goal to help. Leading to believe that she has a good soul that's stayed with her despite having her personality wiped away.
Touching on almost too many different levels at once... DeWitt seems to be one of the only ones left who cares about Topher at all, the poor guy, even if it's just a maternal protection, as she's at least still in charge of keeping everyone safe. He went from "kid in the candy shop" to "kid locked in the basement" sometime between the shown events... and it shattered him so completely T_T.
I don't understand why everyone hates Topher. There is so much more to his character than what we see I'm sure of it. Topher in this just breaks my heart. He kinda reminds me of River from Firefly a little bit.
Can someone explain how Saunders is still here casually and not detained? She murdered Bennett, then was at the Rossum HQ in Tucson and the in-between gets fuzzy. How did she end up back here with Clyde 2.0 wiped from her and as if nothing had happened? Why keep her around if she is part of Topher's mental breakdown? How does she become her eerie self at the of Epitaph 1 when she gases the Dollhouse? So much that doesn't make sense.
Whiskey wasn't wiped; the Dr. Saunders imprint just faded over time as Whiskey remained alone in the Dollhouse, holding down the fort. The reason I think this is because the little girl imprinted with Echo embraced Whiskey and refered to her as Dr. Saunders before Whiskey corrected her. This imprint of Echo was made just before everybody minus Whiskey headed off to Safe Haven, suggesting Whiskey was not wiped prior to everybody leaving.
He talks about Topher in interviews as being a child. It's true. I really think that Topher's child-like mentality would have him breaking down and crying when he talks about the phone (around 1:30). I just wish he played this scene with more lament, pain and tears rather than mildless stares of relived pain. Topher in REAL situations always brought out his humanity.
to help others the only way she can. Even the others are starting to show personalities, Victor is protective of Sierra and in the flashbacks he was a soldier trying to save lives, Sierra was a free spirit before Nolan and she still seems to have some of that even without her memories. They still seem to have some of the same characteristics that they had before their first wipe.
In the episode Echoes Adelle and Topher become affected by the psychedelic drug and start acting like they're stoned. He takes his pants off, she's jumping on a trampoline and eating snackfood. When they bot call Boyd for an update they find out he's been drugged as well when he starts playing the piano for them over the speaker phone. Their acting in that scene is hilarious and fun. It cemented in my mind that these two are amazing just playig of each other in a room. Much like this.
@BuffyTheSlayer14 The technology of the dollhouse got out. Armies were created by simply calling people on the phone. The whole world has gone to hell. It's a good episode (along with epitaph 2) you should watch it.
Yeah... normally Topher speaks his mind as he pleases, but I don't think he even had a line of dialogue in the kitchen - Clive Ambrose in Victor's body, talking so casually about abusing the technology in ways he -and- DeWitt were already against? I wouldn't be surprised if, when that happens in its proper time, Topher starts doubting Rossum's intentions or his own worth, and the metaphorical camel's back starts being piled high with straws.
I agree the debate is fun. Even though Echo is different from Caroline I still feel that they do have a soul. I don't believe that the soul is the personality. Echo, like Caroline, is trying to 'save' everyone in the Dollhouse wether they want it or not. Caroline wanted to save the animals she knew were being tortured by Rossum and Echo wants to free all the people who are trapped in the dollhouse. To me the soul is the essence of a person. It's something that can never be wiped away. (cont)
I think, that the show is meant to show that there is a soul. I mean look at the characters. Echo regains pieces of her memory and starts becoming someone in the first season and in the second she actually is someone, she's Echo. The personalities dumped into her head changed her brain. She's not Caroline anymore, that's for sure, but who we are is made up of the things we experience. She's had all her memories of Caroline wiped away. But at the same time she's still a good person who's trying
I love this episode, I love this scene, and I love Fran Kranz's acting. That said, has anyone else noticed that the Epitaph One Apocalypse is similar to the plot of Stephen King's Cell? (what with the phones causing the brain wipes?) I mean, I'm sure Jed and Maurissa didn't do it on purpose. But I was just wondering if I'm the only one who noticed that.
@H2Ohexagon And what is Broken? And what is whole? What is sanity and what is not? Genius and madness oft exist in tandem. And who is able to truthfully tell the difference?
I liked him before, despite the moral ambiguity, but... This, i just... It felt kind if hard to deal with the fact that i was just watching a tv screen, i wanted to hug him so bad...
Chill out, Eva. It's one thing to express your opinion, it's another to repeat yourself over and over. You didn't like the episode? Fine. You want to say why? FINE. You've said it. Several times! The horse is dead, stop beating it. Also, even if you didn't like the episode, if THIS particular scene doesn't break your heart, you probably don't have one!
From what I heard, I think it was aired once…at Comic-Con in America, on-demand in Singapore, and broadcast in Sweden and Australia. Didn’t see the western light of day again until released on the season one DVD.
I just finished watching Season 2 again. Out of all the relationships in the show, this is the one that really stands out for me. Despite all the romance in the Tony/Preya, Echo/Paul, and Paul/Mellie story lines, the motherly attitude that Adelle has for Topher really adds so much to the show, and does so much to truly make the most of their characters.
I spent this scene with my mouth wide open. The acting in this scene made my eyes brim with tears. Topher is my favourite character and to see him even more childlike than before is just heartbreaking. This was wonderfully done; one of the best scenes in the episode and that's not easy.
my heart was broken in Epitaph one and two. Topher was always my favorite.
Best part of this scene: it planted seeds of horror. In season two, back in the "present day," the still sane Topher starts saying "I know what I know" whenever his grip on reality starts to slip. So even if you don't like the character or care what happens to him, watching him unravel is still scary as it's a harbinger of the end of everything else.
I love this guy, he's a great actor. Did a really great fucking job in "Cabin in the Woods".
Fran definitely deserves all the praise he gets for this scene, but my god, Olivia Williams. She is conveying soooo much shit with nothing. Lol. Like you can see the weight of her empathy for him and see her struggle with the choice to tell him the truth or not and it’s clearly something she’s had to do many times before and she knows regardless of what she says nothing can take that guilt from him. Brilliant acting. Say what you will about Joss, but the man can smell talent.
What this really highlights is our ability to develop technology, and our inability to defend against it. He's done something truly brilliant, but the brilliance surpassed his ability to rationalize and keep it controlled.
"If I think I can make things work, is that curiosity or arrogance?", culminating with "I know what I know" over and over again... we have a brilliant man struggling to assert himself.
Socrates said "The only thing I know is that I know nothing". So what does this tell us?
This scene is so beutiful and sad. Adelle and Topher have this mother/son thing going that can also be interpreted as lovers.
"If I think figure things out is that curiosity or is that arrogance?" Topher to a T and a beutiful line.
TY for putting this up.
This show never should have been cancelled!! It was ahead of its time
this is the scene that had me absolutely SOLD on Dollhouse! And by that I mean - upped form about a 9.0 to 9.9!
I cannot watch this scene without crying. All through S1 I kept thinking when they were going to show Topher actually realize the other side of what he does. Fran pulls it off brilliantly. Both of them just break my heart.
this was the best scne in the best season one epi for me!! Adele was so sweet ...a true mother protecting her own genius
"Why didn't I think of that?... Did I think of that?" I love love love Adelle and Topher. They had such great chemistry in "echoes" when they're both tripping. The two of them listening to Boyd play the piano and this bit from Epitaph One are far and away my favorite scenes in season one.
"If I want to figure things out, is that curiosity or arrogance?" that line gets me every time... the tears just roll
This series would have deserved more viewers - and studio executives that don't meddle ...
Joss Whedon did so much with this show in 2 seasons, character development and plot-wise. The next Whedon show better not get cancelled early.
Oh well. Joss got cancelled this time.
Pre-woke. Anti-woke. ?..
I know Joss got super arrogant, and too much "fun" with his status, but damn his writing is great.
(I'm worried about The Nevers falling apart now. Those first 6 episodes are amazing!)
It sends a shiver through my bones every time I watch it. He IS my favourite character.
Dollhouse was a nightmare my younger self can't escape.
how can anyone hate Topher? he's like the best character!
"You know what? Don't answer the phone, promise me you won't answer the phone!" T_T
Its too bad the show got cancelled. I would have loved to see this relationship manifest the way the creators originally wanted it to
This is, without a doubt, the most phenomenal piece of philosophical content this show produced. Topher himself asks quite directly; is it better to pick up the phone, or not? He can't answer it. He's afraid to answer it, because in answering, he picks a side.
Can any of you? ;)
Thank you for posting this :) Now I dont have to search through the episode for this scene. Its absolutely one of my favorites of the episode.
Poor Topher. :( He's definitely one of my favorite characters.
Fran Kranz did such an amazing job in this scene. I can't even watch without crying.
Just like in the scene in the kitchen when "Victor" is talking about Rossomes plans and he tells Topher hes on the top of the list "to live forever" Topher is sooo quite in that scene it's creepy.
I knew it! I was thinking the same thing. And that made me even sadder. She's just waiting for him and leaning on that bar...oh gosh. It really gets to a person.
And Topher...well that scene was sad and whoa for me because of the delivery of it all. I never would have expected it. Adelle and Topher have great chemistry. It's saddening.
God Fran Kranz is a spectacular actor! *-* this scene is one of the best during the whole show..
@SpoofzRus
The line is "If I think I can figure things out, is that curiosity or arrogance?"
But I agree; it's one of the most powerful lines of the scene.
After watching this scene, i knew i would have been in for a real treat, might the show not have been cancelled. So many setups lead to this moment, well done again Whedon
I love Topher and seeing him like this and how in this finale season his breakdown finally made sense. They broke him and now he feels he's to blame, after he unknowingly created the end. BASTARDS! I can't believe it's canceled. This upsets me, this is like one of the best shows to grace television, even if it was only for two seasons. =(
One of the best scenes I've ever watched....I'm still a little stunned....
This scene was amazing. It's become the inspiration to one of my fanfics!
I love how this episode turned out
Ditto I watched this scene over and over.
"If I think I can figure things out, is that curiosity, or arrogance?"
-- Topher
Ohh, this scene is so sad... poor Topher; I cry every time I watch this... but I have to say, with actors this amazing and a show this phenomenal, created by someone as creative as Joss Whedon, why oh WHY would the series be cancelled???
great acting job from both of them..wow...*.*
I love Topher..and I feel sooo sorry for him during both Epitahs..and the end of Epitah 2..breaks my heart and makes me love him even more..
It's on the dvd set, downloadable on itunes, and, of course through illegal download and illegal streaming. The episode title is "Epitaph One." Really awesome!
Fran Kranz does an amazing job in this scene and it really shows his abilities as an actor that he can make Topher's character do an unexpected 180 and make it believable.
fantastic scene
She really seems to have a soft spot for Topher, as we see in tonight ep.
So this is who Adelle really is when you strip away the ice-queen exterior. It's a shame we didn't get to see more of her soft side in the regular season episodes.
I kind of suspect however that she alway was on Caroline side since the very beginning.
Oh my god I loved this episode so much. And seeing Topher break down like that broke my heart T_T
I never got the 'answering the phone' thing until I read the comics. for anyone who hasn't, that's how the world was wiped; Rossum wiped them when they answered their phones.
thisferalhybrid but echo destroyed the evil rossum Corp.isnt she?🤔
shreya malhotra Think about Rossum as a hydra, cut one head off, two more will take its place.
remember alpha uses a phone to wipe echo in the safecracker episode
when you go back and rewatch you see so much stuff that didnt seem important at the time
@EPeters208 Hardly. He's in denial. He can barely remember he's the one responsible. Like a kid who accidentally broke his gaming console... Is what i think.
I would like to quote the tag line for the first season, "You can wipe away a memory, but can you wipe away a soul?'
Echo is going to do her best to help people even without her memories because that's who she is. Caroline is just a sequence of memories, but they have a common goal to help. Leading to believe that she has a good soul that's stayed with her despite having her personality wiped away.
@nashrules13 "...love it and hate it at the same time" pretty much sums up the entire series.
Touching on almost too many different levels at once... DeWitt seems to be one of the only ones left who cares about Topher at all, the poor guy, even if it's just a maternal protection, as she's at least still in charge of keeping everyone safe. He went from "kid in the candy shop" to "kid locked in the basement" sometime between the shown events... and it shattered him so completely T_T.
I don't understand why everyone hates Topher. There is so much more to his character than what we see I'm sure of it. Topher in this just breaks my heart. He kinda reminds me of River from Firefly a little bit.
Can someone explain how Saunders is still here casually and not detained? She murdered Bennett, then was at the Rossum HQ in Tucson and the in-between gets fuzzy. How did she end up back here with Clyde 2.0 wiped from her and as if nothing had happened? Why keep her around if she is part of Topher's mental breakdown? How does she become her eerie self at the of Epitaph 1 when she gases the Dollhouse? So much that doesn't make sense.
Whiskey wasn't wiped; the Dr. Saunders imprint just faded over time as Whiskey remained alone in the Dollhouse, holding down the fort. The reason I think this is because the little girl imprinted with Echo embraced Whiskey and refered to her as Dr. Saunders before Whiskey corrected her. This imprint of Echo was made just before everybody minus Whiskey headed off to Safe Haven, suggesting Whiskey was not wiped prior to everybody leaving.
He talks about Topher in interviews as being a child. It's true. I really think that Topher's child-like mentality would have him breaking down and crying when he talks about the phone (around 1:30).
I just wish he played this scene with more lament, pain and tears rather than mildless stares of relived pain. Topher in REAL situations always brought out his humanity.
If you’d ever seen someone have a nervous breakdown you would realize what you said is silly
to help others the only way she can. Even the others are starting to show personalities, Victor is protective of Sierra and in the flashbacks he was a soldier trying to save lives, Sierra was a free spirit before Nolan and she still seems to have some of that even without her memories. They still seem to have some of the same characteristics that they had before their first wipe.
Topher doesnt deserve to be like this :( if i were there id just stay with him and help him be his best again
In the episode Echoes Adelle and Topher become affected by the psychedelic drug and start acting like they're stoned. He takes his pants off, she's jumping on a trampoline and eating snackfood. When they bot call Boyd for an update they find out he's been drugged as well when he starts playing the piano for them over the speaker phone. Their acting in that scene is hilarious and fun. It cemented in my mind that these two are amazing just playig of each other in a room. Much like this.
probably the bet scene in the whole show
Most heartbreaking part of the series by far.
Topher is explaining how the world ended, he doesn't remember it. He probably did think about it, which is probably why Dewitt looks so sad
They explain that in the show somewhere; I remember seeing an episode about it.
Yep, really sad scene. I love how Joss Whedon can play with people's feeling that much. LOL ^^; Brilliant scene.
Adelle acts like a mother to Topher, but I love watching these two on set together, especially the ep where they both got drugged :)
@BuffyTheSlayer14 The technology of the dollhouse got out. Armies were created by simply calling people on the phone. The whole world has gone to hell. It's a good episode (along with epitaph 2) you should watch it.
Fuck... you could tell that even Adele was full of guilt during this scene...
It's no big deal, Getting confused is fine. I'm just glad I helped you to understnad
Fran Kranz is amazing...
Made me cry :'(
I home decore like broken Toph.
... Am I broken, too?
Yeah... normally Topher speaks his mind as he pleases, but I don't think he even had a line of dialogue in the kitchen - Clive Ambrose in Victor's body, talking so casually about abusing the technology in ways he -and- DeWitt were already against? I wouldn't be surprised if, when that happens in its proper time, Topher starts doubting Rossum's intentions or his own worth, and the metaphorical camel's back starts being piled high with straws.
Thanks for this, it's an awesome scene... Do you have the Dominic/Adelle scene?
@RettaMac13 People hate Topher? He was my favourite character from the word go. I also liked Victor and Alpha.
Alpha and Topher are the bests ;) how could someone hate Toph' ??
I agree the debate is fun.
Even though Echo is different from Caroline I still feel that they do have a soul. I don't believe that the soul is the personality. Echo, like Caroline, is trying to 'save' everyone in the Dollhouse wether they want it or not. Caroline wanted to save the animals she knew were being tortured by Rossum and Echo wants to free all the people who are trapped in the dollhouse.
To me the soul is the essence of a person. It's something that can never be wiped away. (cont)
I think, that the show is meant to show that there is a soul. I mean look at the characters. Echo regains pieces of her memory and starts becoming someone in the first season and in the second she actually is someone, she's Echo. The personalities dumped into her head changed her brain. She's not Caroline anymore, that's for sure, but who we are is made up of the things we experience. She's had all her memories of Caroline wiped away. But at the same time she's still a good person who's trying
the ep this came from was soooo sad....... just the topher bit tho
I love this episode, I love this scene, and I love Fran Kranz's acting. That said, has anyone else noticed that the Epitaph One Apocalypse is similar to the plot of Stephen King's Cell? (what with the phones causing the brain wipes?) I mean, I'm sure Jed and Maurissa didn't do it on purpose. But I was just wondering if I'm the only one who noticed that.
@H2Ohexagon And what is Broken? And what is whole? What is sanity and what is not? Genius and madness oft exist in tandem. And who is able to truthfully tell the difference?
It's only on the season 1 DVD set.
Was Whiskey/Doc. Saunders a sleeper? Wasn't sure her role in the show towards the end.
She was Whiskey all along, but she plays along as Saunders, just as Echo does when she goes into another inprint of hers.
I liked him before, despite the moral ambiguity, but... This, i just... It felt kind if hard to deal with the fact that i was just watching a tv screen, i wanted to hug him so bad...
The artist was her real self. When she was a skitzo Nolan was drugging her to make her seem insane. Gives a whole new meaning to the word Obssessed
Oh and hes talking about the Bloodhound Gang bad touch
Poor, poor Topher! Could you please upload all the parts of this episode with Claire/Whiskey?
:'(
Topher =(
why didnt this air? i want 2 see it
I like this scene becuse it shows that Adelle really can bw nice.
you can download it from iTunes for just over a pound
I know what I know ...
what was that other show where Eliza Dushku was playing a girl that would see someone die then have to stop it or figure out who did it?
Tru Calling...
Another amazing show that got cancelled without a conclusion.
they do? I've seen the show a good couple times.... maybe I just wasn't paying good enough attention. lol.
Chill out, Eva. It's one thing to express your opinion, it's another to repeat yourself over and over. You didn't like the episode? Fine. You want to say why? FINE. You've said it. Several times! The horse is dead, stop beating it. Also, even if you didn't like the episode, if THIS particular scene doesn't break your heart, you probably don't have one!
So I'm guessing they reimprint Saunders into Whiskey? And then eventually she's wiped?
@TheDianaJC I liked him, he was a proper crazy.
Pretty sure this was aired...
From what I heard, I think it was aired once…at Comic-Con in America, on-demand in Singapore, and broadcast in Sweden and Australia. Didn’t see the western light of day again until released on the season one DVD.
It wasn't aired on FOX. In the US it was first available on the DVD. In the streaming era it's all moot now. Epitaph two did air on FOX.
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Really? I definitely get the maternal vibes here rather than anything romantic...
@Browncoatt22 Wow I loved Topher and Victor, but Alpha seriously he was awful!
Apha is the best. that's all.
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"religion good"? Joss Whedon is an atheist.
Um...no? Joss is atheist. Very much so. I don't see where you're getting 'religion good' out of this episode.
Talk about ignorance.