Reading SF but avoiding fantasy. Would 'Elric of Melniboné' break down this myopic view?
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- Опубліковано 30 вер 2024
- Elric of Melniboné is a fictional character created by English writer Michael Moorcock and the protagonist of a series of sword and sorcery stories taking place on an alternative Earth. The proper name and title of the character are Elric VIII, 428th Emperor of Melniboné.
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When I started reading SF seriously (or seriously enough) when I was 12 I understood fantasy was simply the “twin” of SF even if they operated by different rules.
My first fantasy novel as a serious genre reader was by the late Terry Pratchett, an institution in Britain for many decades.
A great service to me in that period was the Escape Pod podcast, which after a couple of years was joined by its fantasy counterpart Pod Castle (it had long had a horror counterpart in Pseudopod, which I only listened to on occasion).
By the the time I was fifteen I would switch fairly readily between the two, before becoming more of a horror fan in my mid-to-later teens.
Elric was interesting, but I always preferred Corwin from Roger Zelazny's Chronicles of Amber series.
Need to pick up an omnibus!
Let's go, Richard!! Elric is slowly, but surely, becoming one of my favorite literary characters of all time. Can't wait to see what you think of the rest of the series!
Elric blew my teenage mind back in the day.
Ditto! ❤❤❤
Tolkein for high fantasy, Howard with Conan for sword and sorcery, and Moorcock for counter culture fantasy are all foundations for the fantasy genre.
I am glad you found Moorcock as an author. You clearly have not regreted it.
Do want to give the other two a try as well now that I've matured as a reader. (Got old.)
@@vintagesf I've recommended Brian Daley many times. Doomfarers of Cormonde remains, to my tastes, darned near PERFECT heroic fantasy. How do you kill a FIREBREATHING dragon? Why use an armored personnel carrier, after stuffing a white phosphorus grenade down its gullet. 😳🤯😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣.
For an awesome buddy science fiction semi-comedic series, Alacrity Fitzhugh and Hobart Floyd are the best. ❤😉
@@User_Un_Friendly Copied to my notes of recommended books.
I have always loved The Lord of the Rings, and I like The Way of Kings, but I just have a problem reading fantasy. I am now reading The Lions of Al-Rassan by Guy Gavriel Kay, and maybe I have found a fantasy writer I can like. I recently finished the Three-Body Problem (Remembrance of Earth's Past), and loved those books. Maybe I like my fantasy in only one-book form, not in long series. If so, Kay's beautiful prose and enchanting stories will work for Mel
@@marjoriedonnett5467 I found Kay pretentious and verbose, though that was when I was younger, and I was reading the Fionvaar(?) Tapestry. I should have given him the benefit of the doubt, but I found Eddings at the same time who I liked better, so dropped him. 😛🐶
never liked fantasy because they put an exerpt of lord of the rings or the hobbit in our early elementary school reader and i hated it. i did go on to enjoy the conan stories, best is elephant in the tower, but i liked them all as well as kull and bran mak morn for howard. after that no fantasy until i got to its literary cousin magical realism by marquez, borges and murakami. 😂🎉
Alas, I missed out on Elric when I was a kid because I was obsessed with Conan and other Robert Howard characters at the age when I would have really liked it. Only later did I read several of the books. I certainly like them but I suspect I would have loved them in my youth.
I did the reverse. I completely missed out on Conan, and reveled in the doomed Elric, emperor of an island that once ruled the world. Besides, I always despised barbarians, with their uncouth ways and simplistic solutions to problems. 🙄🐶
I love the Erekose story called The Eternal Champion. It is the most honest, brutal story about the hypocrisy, lies and insanity of war I have ever read and what war does to, and expects of, its heroes… and I absolutely love Erekose’s response to it.
“Goodbye, queen. You have lost your champion now!”
Colour me surprised about avoiding fantasy when you were younger, though I do understand how one might do so.
As for me, I read Edgar Rice Boroughs as a kid and later as a teenager, Conan, The Hobbit, and LOTR. IIRC I read Elric about 40 years ago, maybe a bit longer ago than that, but it's in the right ballpark.
Unlike you, my journey has been the other way. I read very little straight up sword and sorcery or epic fantasy anymore. I just prefer stuff that looks to the future rather than dwelling on a mythic past.
I certainly avoided fantasy when i got back into reading as an adult. Having only previously read Forgotten Realms novels and Harry Potter I had a bias against fantasy once i started reading SF and it really clicked with me. But various Science Fantasy books piqued my interest and ever since i delve into Fantasy now and then and am just as blown away as i am with SF. In fact my favorite novel, Perdido Street Station, is Fantasy, although not without a couple SF elements.
Eternal Champion wise I've only read the first Corum trilogy and enjoyed it but suspect the Elric tales are something special. I should get to them soon! Great topic of discussion too!
Thanks Matt. Added Perdido Street Station to my list of books to watch for.
Why SF is a superior genre to Fantasy is an interesting topic for discussion. Admittedly, I have not read a ton of fantasy -Hobbit, LofTRings, Stormlight, Witcher- but to me, it is much more than just the fact that SF is grounded in science (or possible science) that makes it better. I may, of course, have a bit of a bias. 😂
Now I'm even more excited to read this! Great video, as always!
@@LiminalSpaces03 Looks like it’s Moorcock September.
I feel like I recently wrote this to you, but have no idea why I would have; The collection you're holding is excellent, but the second book in that omnibus was written more than 20 years after the original series of six books were collected. I strongly recommend jumping over its dramatically different style and focus and continuing on with what is normally the second book in the series, (the Sailor on the Seas of Fate) even though the Fortress of the Pearl takes place chronologically in that position.
Will take your advice. Certainly is the consensus in these comments.
Moorcock was really cranking out Elric stories in a sort of Edgar Rice Burroughs mode. If I remember, the second or third story in Sailor on the Seas of Fate was a little bit weak because of this, but the fast-moving short style is very indicative of what you will find across the series. Don't let it bias you against the way the story continues to build through more landmark stories like "While the Gods Laugh" and "The Dreaming City" as they build their way to Stormbringer. So there's three recommendations right there. Another recommendation, I personally really enjoy any of the stories where the champion gets to meet and interact with other versions of himself. The fun part is you will get to see most of these meet ups from the perspectives of all the different characters.
I'm guessing the fast output led to a continuity of style and story. Looking forward to more Elric.
@@vintagesf now that it's the next morning and I've had some coffee. . . I think what I meant was don't judge him too harshly if some of the stories are misses or the fact that the books all are kind of like fix ups. What he was doing was kind of amazingly countercultural and deconstructive; writing an anti-Conan in the style of ERB, but focusing on character and metaphysical problems more than plot devices.
I myself have owned the old Fantasy Masterworks compilation for many years but have never read it, along with two later novels in hardback which I purchased from an antiquarian shop because I thought they were very nicely printed and designed.
Well done sir! I enjoyed this video and recap of your reading history and preferences. I appreciate the quality of Moorcock's stories but for some reason they never connected with me. I'd love to hear what you think of Howard's tales If you get around to them!
Probably won't get around to Howard this September but am open to trying Conan. If there is just one book I read in the series, which one do you recommend?
@@vintagesf His best works are short stories (and 90% of his output). I'd start with Tower of the Elephant. And from there his other best works are: Frost Giant's Daughter, Red Nails, Beyond the Black River, A Witch Shall be Born. I think you'll enjoy them!
@@GrammaticusBooks Copied into my notes to consult when in used bookstores. Thanks!
@@vintagesf Also, all of the above should be available on project Gutenberg.
Elric of Melnibone is probably my favourite of the series, because Moorcock knew exactly what he was doing by 1972. However, the rest of the "big six" Elric books are wonderful reads, with Stormbringer being a great climax (and of course one published much earlier, in 1965...). Like you I'm mainly an SF reader, but I make an exception for Moorcock, one of my favourite writers. I love his economy, energy, and dislike of Tolkien! His famous essay "Epic Pooh" has ruffled a lot of feathers with the fantasy world over the years, but it's an interesting read. Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword (1954) was a huge influence on Moorcock, and that is very good also.
I think his economy and anti-hero vibes is what won me over. Will definitely read some more.
I love that I got my dash of fantasy immediately after I subbed!🤔 I too think my love of fantasy stems from watching Star Trek with my dad every sunday evening and Narnia of course!My more recent reboot started with tv shows right to their books, Game of Thrones,The Witcher & The Wheel of Time.
Additional, Andy Serkis’s audio narration of the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings.
I do have the three Elric Omnibus editions! This video has me itching to go back.
My next scifi reads are Gateway, Inverted World, Pandora’s Star & Deathstalker: War sprinkled into my fantasy TBR.
Some good reads ahead for you. I'm definitely familiar with Narnia. Required reading when my children were young.
There is enough difference in our ages, Richard, that my story of Science Fiction and Fantasy is a bit different than yours. Most of the SF you saw on TV came after I was grown up. The only one that come on when I was a boy was Star Trek and we didn't have a TV set then, so I only saw occasional episodes when I was at a friend's house. I had to make do with the SF I found in the libraries. Then, in my Junior year of high school, I fount 'The Hobbit' by J.R.R. Tolkien among the books from Scholastic Books being sold in the high school library. I loved it and saved my lunch money in my senior year to buy The Lord of The Rings.
So, unlike you, I was eager to read fantasy books. The problem was that they were not being published at the time. L. Sprague de Camp and Lin Carter had not yet brought the Robert E. Howard's Conan books back into print but de Camp did edit a couple of sword and sorcery anthologies. I was able get 'The Fantastic Swordsmen' in the book rack at the drugstore. That was where I was introduced to Elric, as well as Conan, Fahfrd & The Grey Mouser by Fritz Leiber, and the incomparable fantasies by Lord Dunsany.
I got the first two collections of Elric stories in 1972 and enjoyed them very much. I read the first couple of followup books but, they didn't sit well with me. Since Elric died in the final story of the second collection, I felt the story was told and trying to cram more stories into his life was a waste of time.
By that time, though, Ace was bringing the Fahfrd & Grey Mouser stories into print. You might want to give them a look. They are definitely vintage. The Conan books from Lancer started being issued in 1966, which are also in the vintage era. Lin Carter was editing the Ballantine Adult Fantasy series which brought a number of classic fantasy books back into print. A lot of them are worth looking at.
Lord Dunsany was probably the greatest fantasy author of the early 20th century. A number of his books are available on Project Gutenberg. Read the first story in 'The Sword of Welleran and Other Stories' to get an idea of what he could do. You can also find print copies of 'The King of Elfland's Daughter', one of his few novels. It is one of the classics. Audio versions of some his books are available on UA-cam.
Of the modern fantasy writers, my favorite is Terry Pratchett. His stories are social commentary, using fantasy to reflect our times through a funhouse mirror. His stories are also incredibly funny. A few of his books were made into shows for British TV. My wife and I watch 'Hogfaher' every Christmas season.
As far as blinders go, I grew up with a serious dislike of serious 'Lit-rah-Chah', perhaps because its advocates always looked down on me for liking that lowly skiffy trash I was always reading. I'm getting better, but I still have to make a conscious effort to read it.
Any way, welcome to the world of fantasy.
Thank you Paul. As I get older I hope I have the grace to get over myself and be open to new experiences.
The Elric books are my favorite series. The best is the last (chronological) book, Stormbringer. I read the older DAW 6-book series years ago (volumes 1 and 2 of the current Saga Press omnibus editions, without Fortess of the Pearl and Revenge of the Rose). I loved the conclusion of Stormbringer so much that I didn’t read the later-written Elric books until much more recently. This was a blinder of sorts, and I’m glad I did return to them, along with other Eternal Champions such as Corum, Hawkmoon, Erekosë, and the Von Bek family, whose stories intersect with Elric’s.
Another blinder for me was that I used to mostly avoid stories set in our real world. One of my favorite aspects of SF and fantasy is exploring other worlds. While that’s still true, I’ve come to appreciate more stories set on Earth, particularly historical fantasies. I still don’t read much with a modern-day Earth setting, as it still feels “too close to home,” though I should try to read more of these.
I've been willing to stretch my reading as I got older. I'm still tethered to SF but it is fun to dabble. More fantasy and perhaps other genres to come on the channel.
I think I discovered SF in the form of Tom Swift but shortly after discovered "real" SF in middle school and loved it. It was only a short time later that I found Andre Norton who did a wonderful job of blending the two genres together. Since then, I've enjoyed both.
Have you tried the Amber series by Roger Zelazny?
@@StevenEverett7 Haven’t read ‘Amber’ series but watching for a good deal on an omnibus.
I had a similar reading journey. sci-fi and no fantasy, I couldn't understand why anyone would put them in the same category. No female authors either, not that I was actively avoiding them, just never heard of them. I had read almost no fantasy until a few years ago and I enjoy it quite a bit now. I've read the six original Elric books, they've got great ideas but the writing isn't always great. and I I've read tons of books by female authors now, in many genres, I wonder about the blinders we had, because I was reading what was recommended to me, which was the most popular stuff from the 60's and 70's which was all written by men. but there were so many other male authors that were also great being overshadowed by their popularity. I don't remember ever thinking "eww, a girl wrote this" many of them used mens names or initials like C.J. Cherryh so I wouldn't have known. something to think about I guess.
Another couple of female authors who hid behind pen names or initials were C.L. Moore and Andre Norton. I think I was vaguely aware that Norton was a woman, but it never really sank in.
My bookish journey was from horror to fantasy to science fiction. I was looking for more monsters and weird tales and I found them in abundance.
Just love a monstrous tale. John W. Campbell Jr.'s "Who Goes There" is definitely one of my favourite stories.
The bookseller in the market where I live, in wells Somerset, says that Moorcock lived above his flat and could constantly be heard typing away at his typewriter. Probably when he wrote this. I think we share that late to the party thing. I struggled with Tolkien… but quite like Gemmell… and worship Howard… I’m trying to get the first Elric before I plow in.
Great to hear from another hesitant fantasy reader. Very interesting Moorcock anecdote! Tried reading Tolkien a few times but never got further than about 100 pages. Even the movies, only watched them completely through in the theatre. My children have regular marathons of the extended editions. Certainly seen portions many times over.
The best sci-fi show out there to me is Babylon 5, way better than Star Trek.
Loved "Babylon 5". The Shadow Wars. A more contemporary show I enjoyed was the reboot of "Battlestar Galactica".
I came to Elric quite early in my SF reading career and instantly fell in love. Like two of my other favourite characters, The Shadow and Batman, he exuded that dual personality trait which I find appealing. Schizophrenic but not quite. I recently read the entire saga that Gollancz did, chronologically, in paperback around 2013 plus the 2022 book Citadel of Forgotten Myths. Thoroughly enjoyed them all.
If you have the time . . . .?
Glad to hear you enjoyed the 2022 book as well. I plan to tackle the original six. After that I’ll see if I want to continue. I have time, just need to keep my health.
@@vintagesfThe 2022 book was far different, stylistically, than the earlier stuff.
I really loved the Elric books when younger. I collected them all voraciously, and I loved the climactic scenes in Stormbringer, which ended the original Elric series. That book is amazing, and frankly i bought the ebook series really to just reread the original series. Written by Moorcock at his prime, they set a standard by which I measured all the other "Heroic Fantasies" I read post-Elric. Very few series and authors have measured up, unfortunately. 😢😞. Oh well, time to read them again! 🐶😂
I think I'm hearing the first six written are the canon while the later ones are lesser works.
@@vintagesf Not exactly. The first six were written when Moorcock was young, at the height of his creativity, with all his sheer talent and skills at full bloom. Later works were the victim of his own success, but with an older, more mature mind behind the typewrit...I mean word processor. 😂😛🐶. The later stories were written after Moorcock had grown as an author. Which is both good and bad, in my opinion. 😉
I'm predominantly a Science Fiction and Horror reader but I've also read The Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit and quite a few of Terry Pratchett's Discworld series. I recently wanted to listen to the first Elric book on Audible but I have to confess I slept through most of it 😅 So I have no idea if I like it or not. I really have to read it with my eyes in the near future. I'm definitely interested.
Audio books put me to sleep unless I'm driving. Hmm. Maybe I should rethink driving while listening to a book. ... Physical books for me.
@@vintagesf 😆
Maybe you should avoid them on long night drives, to be sure.
I finally completed picking up the first six books, so I too need to get over my fantasy hesitation and just enjoy imaginative reads. Also, loved the soundscape you created in the video 🎉
I like the phrase fantasy hesitation. May steal that for a future video. Thanks for the soundscape comment. Always a bit leary because I don't want to overwhelm the dialogue yet still have it heard in quiet moments.
@@vintagesf steal away! Yah, ducking audio in post isn’t the funnest job to do 😂
I look forward to reading the Erlic Saga, but I am very confused as to the series order and the actual starting point.
I was too. It was suggested to me to read the first six books written.
1- Elric of Melniboné
2- Sailor on the Seas of Fate
3- The Weird of the White Wolf
4 - The Vanishing Tower
5 - The Bane of the Black Sword
6 - Stormbringer
Stephen E. Andrew (@outlawbookselleroriginal) also has a great video "Elric for Beginners". ua-cam.com/video/RMnm-519sdo/v-deo.htmlsi=8ivvhMYn_tlqWMdj
@@vintagesf Thank you very much!
It was partly the recommendation to begin with Von Bek that created the confusion.
@@beerye9331 You'll love Stormbringer. So many authors have tried and failed to get the same sense of massive, apocalyptic ending, with grand battles and the clash of immense forces locked into death rides. Moorcock actually pulls it off, unlike Sanderson. Pity Jordan left us too soon. 👍🤩
It’s helpful to read Von Bek before the three later Elric books that make up volume 3 of the current saga press editions. Those crossover substantially with Von Bek. The other Elric books don’t.
@@calebcox4963 Thanks for the recommendation. I’ll look for ‘Von Beck’.