I can't wait for the inevitable conclusion of this with a full stand alone ECM setup running lean burn corn ethanol with robo throttle and full aero for a 200 mpg saturn that takes 3 minutes to go from 0-60 and is 40ft long looking like a UFO whizzing past confused deer on the roadside.
Unless you are very tall, the Saturn coup is extremely uncomfortable, The sedans and wagons get the same fuel economy but are slightly more comfortable.
Did this by accident with a lifted, carburated Toyota pickup 17 years ago. 200 miles on 1/3 tank of gas... normally it used 5x that. Acceleration was abysmal and going through a small town with the only stop of the drive, the engine would not idle at all, so I revved it and rolled through, just to get home. Once home I found the studs to mount the carb had backed out, allowing air in, causing it to run extremely lean. I pulled the plugs, scoped the pistons, and checked compression and everything was perfect. Great job using your head to push what is possible with gasoline engines.
Why not both, make lean burn map on cruise, and give it some timing and fuel on high rpm, now days variable valve makes it even better to have both, if you are on custom ecu its even easier to make lean maps for cruise speeds.
@@Fred_the_1996 I have seen this done this whit few ecus, done one myself whit Vems and now trying to make this on ms43 ecu and im quite amateur on this. Sure its not plug and play but not insanely hard either, ecu platform make it harder on differend platforms some have pretty good modding community.
@@winha1435 yeah, my crusty old 1995 ecu is almost impossible to tune lol, I tried chip tuning it once and it fcked up my ignition timing and fuel mix so bad that the car didin't even start until I took it to a programming shop. It's harder than it looks for beginners like myself😅 Maybe I'll try using a BIPES ACU in the future since no one uses them anymore and they're dirt cheap
my grandma had my great grandmas saturn for years. It was the biggest POS ever but 40 plus MPG easy. Would randomly roll its windows down by itself and you couldn't use the door locks or it would randomly start switching between unlock and lock for like 10 minutes that you could not physically pull the handle quick enough to get out (like how someone hits the unlock button when you already pulled the lever and it won't open the door). One time my grandma had to climb out the window cause they couldn't get out LOL. Grandparents loved (and hated) that car still one of their favorite stories about getting stuck inside.
Google timing advance processors ”TAP” these are are wired between the ECU and the crankshaft position sensor and meant to be used on LPG/CNG converted engines and allow you to program extra ignition advance.
I was thinking he could use the IAT signal to tell the computer to add timing. Not sure what cylinder airmass he is cruising at but on the tune I'm looking at anything under 50F and over 0.32 cyl/airmass is adding timing. If he wanted he could tune the ECU with hptuners and use the IAT as a signal to add the timing for lean burn but that would be at least $100 in credits to tune a old swap destind Saturn.
@@1987FX16 That's a very good idea, and I can tell you it should work that way too! I drive a 2003 Jeep WJ with the venerable ole 4.0. My model has the IAT in the intake manifold while the last model year for my model - 2004 - has the IAT in the airbox itself. I have an OBD reader and dedicated phone attached on my dash which has different guages on the screen so I can watch my timing, throttle position, engine load, rpms, coolant temp, etc. I also monitor my IAT and with the sensor in the intake it soaks up the engine heat and usually always read roughly the engine temp. About two years ago I calculated what value resistor I would need to wire in series with my IAT in order for the ECU to see what the actual incoming air temp is and once I did that it now reads pretty close to the actual incoming air and it bumped my ignition timing up quite a bit, enough to notice a little on acceleration, and it bumped my fuel mileage up a mpg or two! And it's been working beautifully that way for two years now! I've thought about wiring in a variable resistor so I could further play around with it, but I think I may leave well enough alone. 😎
Try adding covers to the back wheel well and maybe those smooth wheel covers trucks have to the front. A lot or drag comes from turbulence from wheels. Car companies mostly don't cover them because big fancy rims look cool and are a status symbol.
There's a lot of aerodynamic things they could do to the car. Basically need to make the car as egg shaped as possible. And then dimple all the sheet metal like a golf ball.
@@flb78 golf ball dimples likely wouldn't help things at this scale unless you have really awful aero. Even then normal vortex generators places strategically would be better than the mini dimple vortex generators on a golf ball.
In 1981 I bought a new Dodge Omni Miser. 1.7 liter 4 cyl 4 speed manual transaxle. It was the 4 door, not the 2 door more aerodynamic model. I believe it had a carb, not fuel injected. But somehow the fuel/air mixture was adjusted by a computer for economy. I drove that car from Akron, Ohio to Myrtle Beach and back, and from Akron to Tampa and back. We got an honest 41 and 42 mpg with no modifications, just very careful acceleration and slowly decelerating as we climbed hills. I often wondered what I could have gotten with a different final drive ratio and maybe narrower tires and maybe ignition timing changes. That was 40 years ago. The auto makers should have gotten WAY better mpg by now.
My grandkids are really interested about how cars work. I was trying to explain to them, but I was not doing a good job explaining. We've been reading this when they visit and it really helps them understand what is going on. Each chapter explains different components and the diagrams bring the text to life. We all are enjoying the learning.
@@mommapanda5736 I love and adore this! And now that my baby is 18, and his big bro’s are 28 and 32, I often finding myself regretting my parenting imperfections when I remember the past.
And be grateful that I get the opportunity to spend time with my equally magical 7 year old grandson. And tell his mama (my incredible daughter-in-law) that she is doing a brilliant job being a mom, and to be kind to herself too.
I've been working on my car for years. I learned more in your video's than my tiny cold cold heart can desire. Now on day three season 2 episode 28, wait a minute episode 13 was the best episode ever.
I believe that you are helping people in ways that you may not imagine, sir. I am going through a rough patch in life now, and seeing a new video from you appear in my notifications leads to a very beneficial distraction from my difficulties. Just being an observer in the process of someone imagining, implementing, measuring, diagnosing and refining technical ideas is helpful to me in ways I can't even accurately communicate. Thanks!
Hey Jimbo, here's the CMP stuff you were needin. The electronic ignition (EI) module supplies a ground to the cylinder #4 signal wire whenever it determines cylinder #4 has just fired on its compression stroke. The EI module uses capacitive pickup plates located under the 1/4 coil pack to determine the polarity sequence and voltage amplitude of the cylinder 1/4 secondary ignition. The powertrain control module (PCM) supplies 5 volts on the signal line and expects to see the cylinder #4 signal wire go low after every 14 crankshaft pulses (2 revolutions). This is used to determine the position of the camshaft, except under decel. The PCM only uses the transition from 5-0 volts as a valid top dead center (TDC) compression #4 cylinder signal. DTC P0341 sets when the PCM detects extra cam pulses (more than one cam pulse within 2 crankshaft revolutions).
So that's how they do it, Very interesting indeed, I had a feeling the cam timing was done through the coil pack, but not a clue how it was done. Thanks!
For folks in europe, PSA did the same trick on the "TU" engines as a result they can get reall snotty about cheap coil packs. This isnt the same as SAAB's ion-sence thats a whole other bag of fancy fun.
@@denisohbrien I've been through the Saab story a few times, the coil pack is either unobtanium, discontinium, a used gamble, or aftermarket that just does not work correctly at all.
@@robotcantina8957 Yep, been through that whole process of having to learn how something works to figure out why it's not working more than a few times, thankfully this system is well documented so we're not all flyin blind which makes life a lot easier. It's a clever work around to save money that can probable be exploited (or exploded) for your goals if you wanted to dive that deep. If you can't easily change the time when the spark fires I wonder how changing when the fuel injector comes on would do? I know it's behind a valve but I don't know the relation of valve starting to open vs injector turn on time, might be such a thing that the injector can start a little early and be squirtin as the valve opens rather than once the valve is open. Batch fire worked pretty good for a while in the 80's and 90's so some fuel on the back of the intake valve isn't awful.
I used to work at staurn. I rebuilt a twin cam with flat face valves, had the head milled 20 thousandths, put on an obx header with 2.5" exhaust and some NGK plugs and got 42 mpg. I averaged 30 prior to that. Everything else was stock. Even the air box. Gained tons of HP. And it was a 4dr. Those engines got a bad rap for oil consumption but aren't bad little units.
Probably the easiest way to monkey with ignition timing is to alter the intake air temperature sensor readings. The ECT and ACT will both influence ignition timing, but the ECT will also influence fueling. The ACT should primarily influence ignition timing, to account for cold and hot ambient temperatures.
The fact that you created a fully automatic system that improves the stock mpg, which was optimized by a team of engineers for several months, is honestly insane. I bet the robot throttle is pretty much exactly the same as the "eco mode" found on newer cars. I watch a lot of car UA-cam and I've NEVER seen someone experiment this much in the pursuit of better efficiency, it's really fun to watch
That's because they engineer for no such thing. All of the engineering is built around emissions compliance numbers at the tail pipe. Clean burning has nothing at all to do with engine A/F ratio relating to power and or fuel efficiency.
@@tcmtech7515 Yes, exactly this! With engine designs (and ecu tunes) emissions output is #1 priority. MPGs are lower priority, but still a priority none the less. You see manufacturers still have to avarage a certain fleet mpgs not to get slapped by fines. In europe for example. fleet avarage has to be a certain CO2 (which directly corelates to mpgs) otherwise fines.
We're also talking about 20+ year-old optimization from the engineers, and 20+ years of wear on the engine. Technology has advanced a lot since this car was new.
@@tcmtech7515 this isn't exactly true... In modern cars the only emissions equipment on them is that catalytic converter. After that the engine control is so precise it doesn't need anything else. Further fuel gets wasted on survivability, running lean is how you get knock. People like engines that don't explode. Power and efficiency are two sides of the same coin. What he's doing is overriding the driver behavior, this is fine but you might want a car that accelerates when you press the pedal. Further in modern engines they are hilariously more efficient but, consumers want power and bigger cars. This is the actual issue, car weights keep going up. It is remarkable we can have a 2 ton vehicle hit 30 highway honestly. I tune engines as a hobby and an in school for engineering. I have spent 100s of hours logging engines. I'm kinda giving a simplified explanation of things. The tldr is cars are getting heavier and faster that's why they don't get better mpgs.
Your addiction to gasoline is impressive. Hundreds of hours of work, and thousands of dollars invested to get a third of the MPG of my Bolt while also sacrificing any fun driving. City driving I can break 6mi/kWh or 200mpge. Highway driving at 60mph I get 4mi/kWh or 135mpge. It goes 0-60 in 6 seconds, corners amazingly well, and has instant torque. Still worth a like because it's neat stuff, just outdated.
We know the ingredients that life requires are ubiquitous everywhere we look: in asteroids, in gas in the galactic center, in outflows around massive, newly forming stars, and even in the atmospheres and on the surface of other planets and moons in our Solar System.
I suggest a 1992-1995 Honda Civic hatchback, preferably the DX model. About 2,000 lbs dry and you can use a variety of tuners to do almost anything you want. There's even a VTEC-E (E for efficiency) engine with 3 valve profiles (I forget which models, but it's a D Series engine and bolts right up).
Saturn's use the ignition module mounted on the trans and the coils mount on. There is a sensing circuit to listens for number 4 cylinder to fire. That is how it uses sequential injection. Also if you trick the intake air sensor that it is colder it will run more timing. At 100 dgs air temp it pulls 3 degrees of ign timing. But you will have to be creative because if you leave it tricked over night when you start it you will get a fault for it. I believe it uses the engine coolant temp to compare the intake temp for over night soaks to verify it is working.
I'll do an experiment this week, thanks for the heads up on the CLT and the IAT being compared on start up. We can easily get around that. Thanks again!
@@robotcantina8957 also if you want to add more timing you can trick the map sensor to believing that the engine has more vacuum than it really does. But one thing you may start to run into is a system rich or lean fault. If the fuel trims ate + or - 20% of expected fuel delivery you will get a fault. I am unsure of any actions taken by the pcm other than the fault. Also. Map sensor is used as a barometric sensor and is used to gauge elevation prior to starting the engine. I have quite a bit of knowledge with saturns specifically. Let me know if you have any questions.
The saturn ignition system is an ion sense ignition type. They call it "compression sensing" ignition. the cam sensor signal is GENERATED by ignition module. Check the wiring schematic. Be very sure your spark plug gap is set to factory specs. A cam sensor code will be generated if there is too much secondary resistance. Hope this helps.
It is not an ion sense system. Only Saabs had that. It's a wasted spark system. Early Saturn S series had standard GM dis ignition modules. It fires spark to two cylinders at a time so it just doesn't need to care about cam position. One is approaching tdc compression stroke the other exhaust stroke. There was a change in the late 90 from the DIS ignition module under the coils to the coils being directly fired by the ecm. Coils were unchanged.
I love your series and watch most them from beginning to end with a nice cup of coffee. Very enjoyable, thank you. (Meanwhile, IRL, I rely on our second car, a 13 year old BMW 120D to provide comfortable, hassle free transportation at less than 5 l / 100km. Combined, year round, mainly urban area traffic)
Impressive! Great lesson Jimbo, thank you for all those miles you drive. When it's diesel time in the coupe I hope are able to test out a few fuel alternatives for economy and power differences. I used to work in Oberlin Ohio which has the 2nd most expensive college in the state. A guy there had an old gas station that offered biofuel and he had old diesel Benz cars he converted, he was a little too ahead of his time though because he closed down. It was very surreal though when he would drive by and you'd smell French fries and Chinese food
My mom had a first gen SL2 when I was a kid. Naturally, it was that great 90s teal color and had the goofy automatic shoulder belts. It was a good car, just had a weird electric gremlin that would completely kill a battery every once in a while.
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As usual a really interesting episode. The low-brow technology is amazing and it works! I don't know much about this stuff but it is so interesting to watch it unfold. Your production is pretty good too. Waiting for the next one on the edge of my seat.
there is one thing: not oppening the throtle induces suction losses. that is inherent to the Otto cycle of gasoline engines. if you could manage to do the oposite (open as wide as possible) and control the fuel (like would a diesel cycle engine) to keep the RPM within the desired range, then we would see some serious efficience improvement. there might be issues of overheating due the super lean mix, and also the question of the timing... another option is to find a way to 'gear' so a full open throtle would give only the desired RPM by using a gear higher than the usual. (perhaps skip from 1st straight to 3rd or 4th and keep the throttle full open while acellerating?) maybe a mix of both: gear higher in the acceleration and leaning in cruise.... you guys are the geniuses. i am only a theorist :D
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For reference, one of the earliest (and therefore should be quite primitive) lean burn cars, The toyota Carina with the lean burn engine option of the mid 1990s, could get Air fuel values as far up as 17-18:1 when in lean burn mode, as far as I recall. But its been a looong time, perhaps those values from my memory are not fully accurate, and it was even a bit more.
Essentially you built a 1886 Oldsmobile cutlass, advanced the timing 4 degrees from wear, and engaged a brutally laggy cruise control....My moms car...1986 0 to 60, by the next town or so.
Back when I owned a Saturn (over 10 yrs ago) the trick for fuel economy was a "hot air intake". The ECU will add some timing if the intake air is hot, and also reduce fueling a bit. You could probably get the same effect by spoofing the IAT sensor. It's just a variable resistor.
Having a crank sensor only turns the system into a multi port injection. That means fuel injectors fire when the valve is closed as well. This is how piggy back port injection systems work. One such example is called a “split second controller”. In a 4 cylinder it fires 2 cylinders at a time. 1 and 3 fire at the same time and so does 2 and 4. Also the ignition system is used as a wasted spark system where it fires the coils during the exhaust as well as compression cycle. Hope this helps. Hptuners has Saturn tuning capability. This would be a better option than a piggy back system. I’d be willing to help it here if this is something you are interested in.
Indeed, most engines with just a crank position sensor have the injectors batch fired, but on the Saturn they managed to do true sequential injection. If you look through through comments, someone did a great job explaining the saturn's method of sequential injection. Its bizarre, but apparently it works.
Actually they do have a true sequential injection AND timing. You see, you don't really need a cam sensor to determine each of the cylinder state. You can also achieve that using MAP sensor data. I'm not sure if saturn does it like this (it likely does) but some other euro cars from the alst century do exactly that to achieve sequential inj/timing.
Twelve years ago i placed a MAP sensor enhancer from those used in the HHO cell kits on a 1996 Toyota RAV4 and got about 35% fuel economy without any problems of any kind, and without the HHO cell.
Ahh remember the late 80s and early 90s GM ECMs where you could enable lean cruise. It was in the programming but never used because the NOX emissions were too high with it enabled. It was nice that they left it in the chip BIN for us to play with later on. Course I haven't burned a chip in probably 15+ years now and don't have the stuff to do it with anymore. Even then new blank chips were hard to come by.
The solution was more expensive hardware (catalytic converters). As for the Saturn, it uses a unique ECU that likely comes from Suzuki, but I imagine you could repin a 2.2 ECU from a Chevy to work.
@@robotcantina8957 I think I mentioned this in the first lean burn video. The ecu ignored the O2 for 60 sec and calculated the injector pulse width for a leaner/specified ratio. It also advanced the timing by 10 degrees or so. It seemed to only be enabled (at least in the fbody cars) in 86 but was left in the code with the speed to enable set to 255.
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I wish my economy experiment worked as good as yours, I built a 99 civic with a D15Z7 1.5l lean burn engine, long gear transmission, manual steering rack, anticipating 60 MPG but got a max of 47,....Its a slow car that wouldnt beat a Prius in a drag race
If you want to play with the crankshaft position sensor, forget the wheel on the crankshaft, the wheel on most 4 cylinder GM engines is removable from the crank, so you can get another one and mount it on the pulley then make a bracket to mount the sensor. That's where they are on cars with the GM Family 1 engine such as the Daewoo Lanos.
The highest vehicle mileage ever was achieved by 77-year-old Irv Gordon in his 1966 Volvo 1800S. By mid-2014, he had driven more than three million miles, averaging as much as 100,000 miles a year. We salute you, Mr. Gordon.
@@mommapanda5736 Every 7,000 Miles: Wheel Alignment. As noted above, misaligned wheels will cause your tires to wear unevenly. If you notice your tires are unevenly shaped or if your car is pulling to one direction, it means your wheels are misaligned. Even if you don’t see any of the signs of misalignment, it’s a good idea to have your alignment checked every other oil change to nip any problems in the bud.
@@ocdman202 Cosmic microwave background The Big Bang theory holds the universe rapidly exploded into being 13.8 billion years ago. The cosmic microwave background (CMB), which dates back to about 400,000 years after the Big Bang, shows the heat left behind. Although the radiation is too cold for humans to see, it is visible on the microwave part of the electromagnetic spectrum. The CMB was found in 1965 by researchers at the Bell Telephone Laboratories, but in 2013, scientists used the European Space Agency's Planck satellite to measure radiation to get the best picture possible of the birth of the universe.
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I wouldn't worry about acceleration. That Saturn in this experiment is fast enough. Think of it like the people behind you are waiting for a grandma to get up to speed and it's their responsibility to be safe behind you. Love these videos.
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A long time ago (in an nightmare commute far far away) I found the BSFC (Brake-Specific Fuel Consumption) Torque Speed map for a Saturn S-Series DOHC engine. I was *never* able to find one for an SOHC engine, so I don't know the RPM + Engine Torque (aka load) sweet spot for your SOHC engines. If you had a DOHC, then it would be 2500 RPM @ 124.8 Nm (newton-metre). However, with all of your equipment, you could probably generate your own BSFC map.
I was more excited than I should have been seeing the Golf GTI/R represented on the dyno slide! Get a DSG transmission and its the ultimate fartbox! Thanks as always for the content!
This is honestly my favorite channel on youtube nowadays. I always look forward to the latest release of Robot Cantina! It's pretty astounding to think that you are quite literally "hacking" these cars. A point you brought up really struck me... the fact that the factory computer has no idea that any of this is going on but yet still yield a result. Basically the definition of hacking lol. Hats off to you for figuring all this out, it really is amazing, not to mention entertaining!
10 years ago I was getting 57 mpg average (60+ on long trips), from my company car. Renault claimed 70 mpg, but I only got that doing 55 on the Motorway, which is terrifying!!
Adding the map reading elements of the smart throttle to the cruise control would be very cool. It would also have the possibility of removing the second throttle body because the cruise control would perform the same function of controlling the throttle
This just makes me miss my old SL2, one of the more reliable cars I have owned not to mention one of the best cars to teach stick on. (Had a friend that would constantly forget to press the clutch when trying to shift)
The way they bypassed the need for a cam sensor was to use the resistance of the waste spark ignition on the #4 cylinder on the exhaust stroke to calculate cam position. What's odd is when these Saturn's throw a code for a non-existent cam sensor. But they can act up with some aftermarket plugs and wires that run low impedence as it gives back improper readings. Also, haven't watched all your vids yet, but have you tried tricking the egr into opening sooner/staying open longer?
I just love your little show.. My 1995 ford escort wagon is now running on propane. I was very disappointed in ford.. the mpg is horrible.. nothing wrong with the car but probably ac use.. gets 30 mpg with gasoline and only 21 mpg with propane.. I have a 1980's mechanical distributor that I think will fit on so.. maybe advanced timing will help? .. come up to Belvue Ks sometime at my Old Country Woodworks shop and check it out...
with out a cam sensor you can still do wasted spark, fire 2 cylinders, 1 will bang the other exhaust. Injectors can be pulsed all 4 at the same time even.
5:03 ...wait until you hear about electronic gaspedals.... they are part of every car now since ~mid 2000's and work in a similar way, just not only focused on fuel economy and with some more sensor-shenanigans...
Take a look into air temp sensor, you may be able to do a variable resistor to trick it to think it hotter or cooler and it should change timing. (Ebay sellers sell them and performance “chips”)
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5:12 this quote made me laugh my ass off, iirc AvE's daughter said something similar about the cnc machine. "I think machines are dangerous because they're stupid and have no soul"
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You might want to try tapping into the Intake Air Temp sensor -- this might be integrated in the MAF. It should be a simple therrmistor. At least on the 87 GN, the IAT would vary the timing by a few degrees, so a rheostat in place off the IAT might give you just what you need, if the 96 ECU still has that logic.
Was thinking of this as well while watching. Was thinking it could also dump more fuel along with it because it thinks it's getting colder and denser air.
@@bleach_drink_me typically the ecu reduces the fuel injected, higher iats result in less dense air which doesn't require as much fuel as denser air to achieve target air fuel ratios.
@@mitchelllaughton9891 I'm going off of how my nissan ecu works when tuning. Higher the iat the lower the timing, if it gets too warm it enriches the afr slightly to help cool down the cylinder Temps. I have absolutely no idea how others are setup or if it was just special in my base tune. Now I want to get a stock map and see.
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Checkout the Dynatek Dyna 2000 to control ignition timing. I think it will work with the Saturn ignition coil & ecu by intercepting the output to the coils & altering timing of the coils input.
To use LPG efficiently he would need engine with much higher compression ratio and different cylinder ratio, and having ability to actually have a map for timing advance. As for timing advance, solution simply to piggy-back speeduino to the system, having speeduino having all the inputs, but controlling only ignition. More fuss is with compression ratio. Running on LPG with poor fuel economy is always cheaper anyway, but ofc volumetric -wise fuel economy will be worse. OTOH LPG is better for engine as it allows running engine more rich at same cost, and with slower burn front it does not strain crank bearings so much as normal gasoline does. last but not least it does not pollute or dilute oil like gasoline. But that matters only for new cars you are planning to keep for some time, for old Saturn destined for scrap it is not worth the hassle.
with a standalone ECU and water injection you should prevent pinging and get really high AFR.I tried on 2008 ford fiesta but the original ECU couldnt be tricked.
Going a bit rich on the A/F ratio does way more for fuel efficiency than going excessively lean. It's counter-intuitive but that's how the old-timers 'fixed' the shyte fuel milage numbers the first emissions-compliant vehicles suffered from in th 1970's and 80's and beyond. Rejecting from the stoichiometric ~14.7:1 to ~ 12.8 - 13:1 (depending on fuel type and compression ratio) often yielded 15% to even 30+% fuel mileage numbers for very little effort other than swapping out a set of jets in the carburetors. On modern EFI engines that same 'rejetting' can be done by cheating the O2 sensor signals by putting a simple germanium diode in series, Its low ~.2 to.3 volt forward drop cheats the signal slightly rich while still staying in the working range of the sensor making the ECM think its still running the engine in the stoichiometric range.
How exactly could running richer than the stoichiometric ratio be more fuel efficient? Any richer and the extra fuel ends up going out the exhaust unburned. If you target a ratio somewhat leaner than 14.7:1, you can improve efficiency in two ways. First and most obviously, running leaner than stoich helps ensure that all the fuel is burned and no unburned fuel is wasted out the exhaust. Second and perhaps less obviously, since less power is generated at any given throttle position with leaner air fuel ratios, a higher throttle opening is required to maintain the same power output, reducing pumping losses and therefore creating a higher effective compression ratio. That's one of the main reasons lean burn engines like the Honda Civic VX and HX and first gen Insight are so ridiculously fuel efficient. But whatever you do, proceed with caution. Running excessively rich can result in carbon buildup, damage to catalytic converters, greatly reduced oil life, and unnecessary wear to pistons, rings, and cylinders. Running too lean for the given conditions can cause damage to the engine and exhaust system by increasing cylinder temps and exhaust gas temps. One of the biggest reasons modern engines last so much longer than pre EFI engines did is because of much more precise fuel delivery, which nearly eliminates the seriously rich and lean conditions that used to be so common.
@@averyalexander2303 Nope. It's an odd quirk of how gasoline works. As I said. It's counter-intuitive to what most think. Also getting rid of all the other emission systesm comments makes a considerable improvement not with most engines as well. No need for caoution. I've bene working with this stuff for about 35 years now and know the ins and out very well. It's old knowledge that was well proven back from the early days of 'fixing' emissions compliance to be fuel efficient. not new.
@@tcmtech7515 Do you know of any studies backing up that theory that you'd be willing to share? I haven't seen any, but that's not to say they don't exist. All the data I found shows that lean air/fuel ratios are more efficient, hence the creation of lean burn engines. I do believe that the emissions systems can have a significant negative effect on fuel efficiency and performance, especially when they were new and still had many flaws. Modern emissions systems aren't nearly as bad, but still can affect performance and efficiency, especially on diesel engines.
@@averyalexander2303 Ever use anything with a small 1 or two-cylinder engine that runs from a simple carburetor and you had to run it with the choke part way on to get it to run right and have any power? If so, did you ever notice that when running that way with the choke part way on it somehow managed to also use less fuel to do the same work as compared to when running it with it all the way off?
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Saturn has "Wasted-spark" type of ignition. Every rotation one of the pistons from pair (1&4 and 2&3) has compression&power stroke. So you just need 1 rotation of crankshaft to get ECU in correct table for ignition.
The Saturn we use for the videos actually has sequential EFI even though it lacks a cam position sensor. A few folks in the comment section have done a decent job explaining how it works, but basically the ECU is using some clever magic and monitoring the coil pack module. its very interesting on how it works.
You could use the IAT to make the computer add timing. You already have a system to keep it from enriching the fuel for the colder IAT reading. A potentiometer on the IAT circuit to make it read 32F or just unplug it. It normally defaults to -32F when unplugged anyway.
Unplugging it will 100% cause a fault code and it'll go into limp mode. Using a potentiometer however... that's good thinking. Nearly all IAT's are NTC type which means more resistance = cooler reading. However this assumes the factory tune increases ignition with lower-than-usual temperatures. It'll also add more fuel too, Jimbo would have to offset his lean burn threshold even more to compensate. It's not impossible to do it this way but a bit of a challenge.
excited to see how the wagon goes. I drove a 94sw2 5mt in gold for a few years, getting rid of it in 2019. it probably set the record for least MPG in a saturn. I drove it super hard, ran the a/c and often hauled three kayaks on top of it. do yourself a favor and go ahead and remove/fix the headliner. otherwise the fiberglass falls out and feels great in your eyes.
The work is amazing that you put in to this. And it is fun to get an understanding on how different components effect the performance of the engine. I had an 1995 Volvo 440 SE 2.0. It had an PSA motor that used a simple EFI system with MAP-sensor in the intake, water temp and air temp. And it used an DIM ignition with the ford style combined coil-pack. It averaged 6.5l/100km in city/urban driving. But on longer trips (400km+) we could get it to 4.5l/100km. I would have loved to have been able to dig in tot that ECM and see what type of witchcraft the PSA engineers managed. It also just accepted an 50/50 gas e85 mix. Even tough the fuel economy suffered. Anyhow, great content as usual :)
90' ECUs should not throw codes even when load signal is quite offset from normal. In 2000s piggyback devices was very popular. I used that kind device to rise power in early VW's 1.8T 20V engine. With installed bigger injectors I decreased maf signal to prevent flooding on low load areas (early 1.8T doesn't have map and even boost was controlled using air flow). With maf signal alteration I need to retard timing because when ECU reads less load and increased timing and that device can shift many types of trigger signal to counteract that issue. I used locally manufactured ecumaster DET3 (full standalone ECUs of that manufacturer are available in USA). Even Craig Liberman's 600-700HP Toyota Supra from Fast and Furious movie was stuffed with ECU piggyback devices.
I can't wait for the inevitable conclusion of this with a full stand alone ECM setup running lean burn corn ethanol with robo throttle and full aero for a 200 mpg saturn that takes 3 minutes to go from 0-60 and is 40ft long looking like a UFO whizzing past confused deer on the roadside.
Yessssssssss!!
I unironically want this vehicle. I have a 60 miles commute and gas is a lot.
Unless you are very tall, the Saturn coup is extremely uncomfortable, The sedans and wagons get the same fuel economy but are slightly more comfortable.
LOL.... I really want to do all that just to confuse the local deer population. They will have story's to tell for years.
There's literally not enough energy in gasoline for that Saturn to get 200 MPG for any significant distance without losing a lot of elevation.
I love these fuel economy shenanigans. Not many other youtubers do economy stuff, it's all about MORE POWER!!!!!!
Did this by accident with a lifted, carburated Toyota pickup 17 years ago. 200 miles on 1/3 tank of gas... normally it used 5x that. Acceleration was abysmal and going through a small town with the only stop of the drive, the engine would not idle at all, so I revved it and rolled through, just to get home. Once home I found the studs to mount the carb had backed out, allowing air in, causing it to run extremely lean. I pulled the plugs, scoped the pistons, and checked compression and everything was perfect.
Great job using your head to push what is possible with gasoline engines.
2000’s tuning: “MORE POWER “
2020’s tuning: “ please use less gas”
Love the comments here..
Why not both, make lean burn map on cruise, and give it some timing and fuel on high rpm, now days variable valve makes it even better to have both, if you are on custom ecu its even easier to make lean maps for cruise speeds.
@@winha1435 easier said than done...
@@Fred_the_1996 I have seen this done this whit few ecus, done one myself whit Vems and now trying to make this on ms43 ecu and im quite amateur on this. Sure its not plug and play but not insanely hard either, ecu platform make it harder on differend platforms some have pretty good modding community.
@@winha1435 yeah, my crusty old 1995 ecu is almost impossible to tune lol, I tried chip tuning it once and it fcked up my ignition timing and fuel mix so bad that the car didin't even start until I took it to a programming shop. It's harder than it looks for beginners like myself😅 Maybe I'll try using a BIPES ACU in the future since no one uses them anymore and they're dirt cheap
my grandma had my great grandmas saturn for years. It was the biggest POS ever but 40 plus MPG easy. Would randomly roll its windows down by itself and you couldn't use the door locks or it would randomly start switching between unlock and lock for like 10 minutes that you could not physically pull the handle quick enough to get out (like how someone hits the unlock button when you already pulled the lever and it won't open the door). One time my grandma had to climb out the window cause they couldn't get out LOL. Grandparents loved (and hated) that car still one of their favorite stories about getting stuck inside.
Google timing advance processors ”TAP” these are are wired between the ECU and the crankshaft position sensor and meant to be used on LPG/CNG converted engines and allow you to program extra ignition advance.
That sure sounds interesting. Plus I would love to see LPG conversion in the future.
I was thinking he could use the IAT signal to tell the computer to add timing. Not sure what cylinder airmass he is cruising at but on the tune I'm looking at anything under 50F and over 0.32 cyl/airmass is adding timing. If he wanted he could tune the ECU with hptuners and use the IAT as a signal to add the timing for lean burn but that would be at least $100 in credits to tune a old swap destind Saturn.
@@1987FX16 back when the 240 z Datsun was new , we added a few hundred ohm rheostat to the sensor and adjusted for both timing and fuel
@@dennisford2000 Check out that crazy fuel economy!@
@@1987FX16 That's a very good idea, and I can tell you it should work that way too! I drive a 2003 Jeep WJ with the venerable ole 4.0. My model has the IAT in the intake manifold while the last model year for my model - 2004 - has the IAT in the airbox itself. I have an OBD reader and dedicated phone attached on my dash which has different guages on the screen so I can watch my timing, throttle position, engine load, rpms, coolant temp, etc. I also monitor my IAT and with the sensor in the intake it soaks up the engine heat and usually always read roughly the engine temp. About two years ago I calculated what value resistor I would need to wire in series with my IAT in order for the ECU to see what the actual incoming air temp is and once I did that it now reads pretty close to the actual incoming air and it bumped my ignition timing up quite a bit, enough to notice a little on acceleration, and it bumped my fuel mileage up a mpg or two! And it's been working beautifully that way for two years now! I've thought about wiring in a variable resistor so I could further play around with it, but I think I may leave well enough alone. 😎
Try adding covers to the back wheel well and maybe those smooth wheel covers trucks have to the front. A lot or drag comes from turbulence from wheels. Car companies mostly don't cover them because big fancy rims look cool and are a status symbol.
yup. Top of the wheels are going twice as fast as the rest of the car
There's a lot of aerodynamic things they could do to the car. Basically need to make the car as egg shaped as possible. And then dimple all the sheet metal like a golf ball.
Citroen's of old looked cool and they had covered wheels
@Matt I think it has a chance. A massive, heavy brick may not benefit much but a lightweight somewhat aerodynamic coupe may see a change.
@@flb78 golf ball dimples likely wouldn't help things at this scale unless you have really awful aero. Even then normal vortex generators places strategically would be better than the mini dimple vortex generators on a golf ball.
In 1981 I bought a new Dodge Omni Miser. 1.7 liter 4 cyl 4 speed manual transaxle. It was the 4 door, not the 2 door more aerodynamic model. I believe it had a carb, not fuel injected. But somehow the fuel/air mixture was adjusted by a computer for economy. I drove that car from Akron, Ohio to Myrtle Beach and back, and from Akron to Tampa and back. We got an honest 41 and 42 mpg with no modifications, just very careful acceleration and slowly decelerating as we climbed hills. I often wondered what I could have gotten with a different final drive ratio and maybe narrower tires and maybe ignition timing changes. That was 40 years ago. The auto makers should have gotten WAY better mpg by now.
My grandkids are really interested about how cars work. I was trying to explain to them, but I was not doing a good job explaining. We've been reading this when they visit and it really helps them understand what is going on. Each chapter explains different components and the diagrams bring the text to life. We all are enjoying the learning.
How many grandkids do you have...?
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Here's to the grandkids.. I think they will love to find out how cars work..🚙🚙🚙
@@mommapanda5736 I love and adore this! And now that my baby is 18, and his big bro’s are 28 and 32, I often finding myself regretting my parenting imperfections when I remember the past.
And be grateful that I get the opportunity to spend time with my equally magical 7 year old grandson. And tell his mama (my incredible daughter-in-law) that she is doing a brilliant job being a mom, and to be kind to herself too.
Glad you're happy to recieve the wideband, keep on keeping on!
Dude! You rock!
@@dangerousdave5915 money well spent.
Hi Anthony! Thanks for the gift, we will use it on many future projects!
@@robotcantina8957 This is a really great channel..... yes to ROBOT CANTINA!!
That was an awesome gesture! 😎
3 Hours for hillbilly proving grounds testing? Dang that's dedication, mad props for that! Much love for the content!
I've been working on my car for years. I learned more in your video's than my tiny cold cold heart can desire. Now on day three season 2 episode 28, wait a minute episode 13 was the best episode ever.
Welcome to the episode 13 fan club!
I believe that you are helping people in ways that you may not imagine, sir.
I am going through a rough patch in life now, and seeing a new video from you appear in my notifications leads to a very beneficial distraction from my difficulties.
Just being an observer in the process of someone imagining, implementing, measuring, diagnosing and refining technical ideas is helpful to me in ways I can't even accurately communicate.
Thanks!
Love this channel... so fun to watch and learn from the implementing and measuring and diagnosing helps so many folks.
@@mommapanda5736 This may escalate into hyperbole
@@ocdman202 Love the comments here...
“More smiling, less worrying. More compassion, less judgment. More blessed, less stressed. More love, less hate.”
Since you seem like the type to not give up easily i subbed
Hey Jimbo, here's the CMP stuff you were needin.
The electronic ignition (EI) module supplies a ground to the cylinder #4 signal wire whenever it determines cylinder #4 has just fired on its compression stroke. The EI module uses capacitive pickup plates located under the 1/4 coil pack to determine the polarity sequence and voltage amplitude of the cylinder 1/4 secondary ignition. The powertrain control module (PCM) supplies 5 volts on the signal line and expects to see the cylinder #4 signal wire go low after every 14 crankshaft pulses (2 revolutions). This is used to determine the position of the camshaft, except under decel. The PCM only uses the transition from 5-0 volts as a valid top dead center (TDC) compression #4 cylinder signal. DTC P0341 sets when the PCM detects extra cam pulses (more than one cam pulse within 2 crankshaft revolutions).
So that's how they do it, Very interesting indeed, I had a feeling the cam timing was done through the coil pack, but not a clue how it was done. Thanks!
For folks in europe, PSA did the same trick on the "TU" engines as a result they can get reall snotty about cheap coil packs. This isnt the same as SAAB's ion-sence thats a whole other bag of fancy fun.
@@denisohbrien I've been through the Saab story a few times, the coil pack is either unobtanium, discontinium, a used gamble, or aftermarket that just does not work correctly at all.
@@robotcantina8957 Yep, been through that whole process of having to learn how something works to figure out why it's not working more than a few times, thankfully this system is well documented so we're not all flyin blind which makes life a lot easier. It's a clever work around to save money that can probable be exploited (or exploded) for your goals if you wanted to dive that deep. If you can't easily change the time when the spark fires I wonder how changing when the fuel injector comes on would do? I know it's behind a valve but I don't know the relation of valve starting to open vs injector turn on time, might be such a thing that the injector can start a little early and be squirtin as the valve opens rather than once the valve is open. Batch fire worked pretty good for a while in the 80's and 90's so some fuel on the back of the intake valve isn't awful.
@@huzudra Some really great comments here.
I used to work at staurn. I rebuilt a twin cam with flat face valves, had the head milled 20 thousandths, put on an obx header with 2.5" exhaust and some NGK plugs and got 42 mpg. I averaged 30 prior to that. Everything else was stock. Even the air box. Gained tons of HP. And it was a 4dr. Those engines got a bad rap for oil consumption but aren't bad little units.
Don't just scrap the Saturn. There is a following for those that would buy it in a heartbeat
Yes,, in a heatbeat💖💖💖💖
I agree! Especially at over 40mpg!
My salvage title sc2 dohc gets over 40mpg stock with an automatic on the highway, vibrating like a paintshaker at low rpm...
@@tkello001 Replace your upper passenger engine mount with an oem style one. I had the same problem.
Probably the easiest way to monkey with ignition timing is to alter the intake air temperature sensor readings. The ECT and ACT will both influence ignition timing, but the ECT will also influence fueling. The ACT should primarily influence ignition timing, to account for cold and hot ambient temperatures.
Good Comment here.
I finally found this comment, now i cad delete the one i just made
The fact that you created a fully automatic system that improves the stock mpg, which was optimized by a team of engineers for several months, is honestly insane. I bet the robot throttle is pretty much exactly the same as the "eco mode" found on newer cars. I watch a lot of car UA-cam and I've NEVER seen someone experiment this much in the pursuit of better efficiency, it's really fun to watch
That's because they engineer for no such thing. All of the engineering is built around emissions compliance numbers at the tail pipe. Clean burning has nothing at all to do with engine A/F ratio relating to power and or fuel efficiency.
@@tcmtech7515 Yes, exactly this!
With engine designs (and ecu tunes) emissions output is #1 priority. MPGs are lower priority, but still a priority none the less. You see manufacturers still have to avarage a certain fleet mpgs not to get slapped by fines.
In europe for example. fleet avarage has to be a certain CO2 (which directly corelates to mpgs) otherwise fines.
We're also talking about 20+ year-old optimization from the engineers, and 20+ years of wear on the engine. Technology has advanced a lot since this car was new.
@@imitt12 indeed, technology has advanced quite a bit since this car was new..
@@tcmtech7515 this isn't exactly true... In modern cars the only emissions equipment on them is that catalytic converter. After that the engine control is so precise it doesn't need anything else. Further fuel gets wasted on survivability, running lean is how you get knock. People like engines that don't explode. Power and efficiency are two sides of the same coin.
What he's doing is overriding the driver behavior, this is fine but you might want a car that accelerates when you press the pedal. Further in modern engines they are hilariously more efficient but, consumers want power and bigger cars. This is the actual issue, car weights keep going up. It is remarkable we can have a 2 ton vehicle hit 30 highway honestly.
I tune engines as a hobby and an in school for engineering. I have spent 100s of hours logging engines. I'm kinda giving a simplified explanation of things. The tldr is cars are getting heavier and faster that's why they don't get better mpgs.
Your addiction to gasoline is impressive. Hundreds of hours of work, and thousands of dollars invested to get a third of the MPG of my Bolt while also sacrificing any fun driving.
City driving I can break 6mi/kWh or 200mpge. Highway driving at 60mph I get 4mi/kWh or 135mpge. It goes 0-60 in 6 seconds, corners amazingly well, and has instant torque.
Still worth a like because it's neat stuff, just outdated.
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My ‘08 Yaris max mileage is 42…has 280,000 and still gets 42… it gets 36 no matter what.
I had a ‘96 Tercel that got 52…no mods…was incredible !
Something completely off topic: the music during the test drive reminded me of "C'est comme ca" with "Les Ritas Mitsouku". Memory lane...
We love it when Jimbo does experiments...👍👍👍
we LOVE ROBOT CANTINA...
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@@ocdman202 interesting comment.
Just the right mix of info and sarcasm. Kind of like a ToT video.
I suggest a 1992-1995 Honda Civic hatchback, preferably the DX model. About 2,000 lbs dry and you can use a variety of tuners to do almost anything you want. There's even a VTEC-E (E for efficiency) engine with 3 valve profiles (I forget which models, but it's a D Series engine and bolts right up).
Hell yeah! A gen 2 Saturn SC getting some love! The SC2’s have a lot better interior and seats tbh. And the gen 3’s are even better!
Saturn's use the ignition module mounted on the trans and the coils mount on. There is a sensing circuit to listens for number 4 cylinder to fire. That is how it uses sequential injection. Also if you trick the intake air sensor that it is colder it will run more timing. At 100 dgs air temp it pulls 3 degrees of ign timing. But you will have to be creative because if you leave it tricked over night when you start it you will get a fault for it. I believe it uses the engine coolant temp to compare the intake temp for over night soaks to verify it is working.
I'll do an experiment this week, thanks for the heads up on the CLT and the IAT being compared on start up. We can easily get around that. Thanks again!
@@robotcantina8957 We look forward to this.
@@robotcantina8957 also if you want to add more timing you can trick the map sensor to believing that the engine has more vacuum than it really does. But one thing you may start to run into is a system rich or lean fault. If the fuel trims ate + or - 20% of expected fuel delivery you will get a fault. I am unsure of any actions taken by the pcm other than the fault. Also. Map sensor is used as a barometric sensor and is used to gauge elevation prior to starting the engine. I have quite a bit of knowledge with saturns specifically. Let me know if you have any questions.
@@johncollinsgrove1750 You put the you in thank you Thank you ROBOT CANTINA!
The saturn ignition system is an ion sense ignition type. They call it "compression sensing" ignition. the cam sensor signal is GENERATED by ignition module. Check the wiring schematic. Be very sure your spark plug gap is set to factory specs. A cam sensor code will be generated if there is too much secondary resistance.
Hope this helps.
Came to the comments to say this
It is not an ion sense system. Only Saabs had that. It's a wasted spark system. Early Saturn S series had standard GM dis ignition modules. It fires spark to two cylinders at a time so it just doesn't need to care about cam position. One is approaching tdc compression stroke the other exhaust stroke. There was a change in the late 90 from the DIS ignition module under the coils to the coils being directly fired by the ecm. Coils were unchanged.
@@dimedriver It was sequential fuel injection. Not simultaneous double fire. What synched the injectors, eh?
I love your series and watch most them from beginning to end with a nice cup of coffee. Very enjoyable, thank you. (Meanwhile, IRL, I rely on our second car, a 13 year old BMW 120D to provide comfortable, hassle free transportation at less than 5 l / 100km. Combined, year round, mainly urban area traffic)
Impressive! Great lesson Jimbo, thank you for all those miles you drive. When it's diesel time in the coupe I hope are able to test out a few fuel alternatives for economy and power differences. I used to work in Oberlin Ohio which has the 2nd most expensive college in the state. A guy there had an old gas station that offered biofuel and he had old diesel Benz cars he converted, he was a little too ahead of his time though because he closed down. It was very surreal though when he would drive by and you'd smell French fries and Chinese food
Saturn s-series are basically a tractor to begin with. A shop’s favourite vehicle 🚗
My mom had a first gen SL2 when I was a kid. Naturally, it was that great 90s teal color and had the goofy automatic shoulder belts. It was a good car, just had a weird electric gremlin that would completely kill a battery every once in a while.
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driving with the windows open or closed makes a LOT of aerodynamic difference.................................
Yes, but its been between 95 and 100F here in Kansas and the car doesn't have air conditioning. We absolutely had the windows open...kinda had to.
Possibly the best-produced videos on UA-cam! Great explanations with media effects to illustrate concepts.
A light bulb goes off for me when I watch ROBOT CANTINA
@@ocdman202 Looking forward to more great videos here.
As usual a really interesting episode. The low-brow technology is amazing and it works! I don't know much about this stuff but it is so interesting to watch it unfold. Your production is pretty good too. Waiting for the next one on the edge of my seat.
Got all of those fancy camera angles during the road tests!
there is one thing: not oppening the throtle induces suction losses. that is inherent to the Otto cycle of gasoline engines.
if you could manage to do the oposite (open as wide as possible) and control the fuel (like would a diesel cycle engine) to keep the RPM within the desired range, then we would see some serious efficience improvement. there might be issues of overheating due the super lean mix, and also the question of the timing...
another option is to find a way to 'gear' so a full open throtle would give only the desired RPM by using a gear higher than the usual. (perhaps skip from 1st straight to 3rd or 4th and keep the throttle full open while acellerating?)
maybe a mix of both: gear higher in the acceleration and leaning in cruise....
you guys are the geniuses. i am only a theorist :D
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Books are fun..... I am looking forward to another video from ROBOT CANTINA..
@@kansasrose2909 I like popping the hood.... LOOKING FORWARD TO MORE FROM ROBOT CANTINA.
For reference, one of the earliest (and therefore should be quite primitive) lean burn cars, The toyota Carina with the lean burn engine option of the mid 1990s, could get Air fuel values as far up as 17-18:1 when in lean burn mode, as far as I recall. But its been a looong time, perhaps those values from my memory are not fully accurate, and it was even a bit more.
Essentially you built a 1886 Oldsmobile cutlass, advanced the timing 4 degrees from wear, and engaged a brutally laggy cruise control....My moms car...1986
0 to 60, by the next town or so.
Looking forward to another great video from ROBOT CANTINA!
”SUNDAY - The day I planned a lot but actually do nothing.”
JIMBO, CONGRATULATIONS ON 115K SUBSCRIBERS!!😊😊
“May your Sunday be full of fun and laughter.”
“My favorite color is October.”
@@ocdman202 “Sometimes the smallest things take up the most room in your heart.” - Winnie the Pooh
“It is more fun to talk with someone who doesn’t use long, difficult words but rather short, easy words like, ‘What about lunch?’”- Winnie the Pooh
I own a 2002 sc1 for 17 yrs. ..410,000 kms..still gets 35- 42 mpg....on pump gas..no mods .but all new plugs& filter ..higher lbs tire pressure ...
Back when I owned a Saturn (over 10 yrs ago) the trick for fuel economy was a "hot air intake". The ECU will add some timing if the intake air is hot, and also reduce fueling a bit. You could probably get the same effect by spoofing the IAT sensor. It's just a variable resistor.
Having a crank sensor only turns the system into a multi port injection. That means fuel injectors fire when the valve is closed as well. This is how piggy back port injection systems work. One such example is called a “split second controller”.
In a 4 cylinder it fires 2 cylinders at a time. 1 and 3 fire at the same time and so does 2 and 4.
Also the ignition system is used as a wasted spark system where it fires the coils during the exhaust as well as compression cycle.
Hope this helps.
Hptuners has Saturn tuning capability. This would be a better option than a piggy back system. I’d be willing to help it here if this is something you are interested in.
Indeed, most engines with just a crank position sensor have the injectors batch fired, but on the Saturn they managed to do true sequential injection. If you look through through comments, someone did a great job explaining the saturn's method of sequential injection. Its bizarre, but apparently it works.
@@robotcantina8957 Love the comments here.
Actually they do have a true sequential injection AND timing. You see, you don't really need a cam sensor to determine each of the cylinder state. You can also achieve that using MAP sensor data. I'm not sure if saturn does it like this (it likely does) but some other euro cars from the alst century do exactly that to achieve sequential inj/timing.
Twelve years ago i placed a MAP sensor enhancer from those used in the HHO cell kits on a 1996 Toyota RAV4 and got about 35% fuel economy without any problems of any kind, and without the HHO cell.
I lost it when you cutoff Jimbo from under the car. They always do that... :)
Always a fantastic video. Thanks for the honest and down to earth mentality, we need more of that these days.
“This weekend don’t think about Monday, it will come soon enough.”
Ahh remember the late 80s and early 90s GM ECMs where you could enable lean cruise. It was in the programming but never used because the NOX emissions were too high with it enabled. It was nice that they left it in the chip BIN for us to play with later on. Course I haven't burned a chip in probably 15+ years now and don't have the stuff to do it with anymore. Even then new blank chips were hard to come by.
Interesting that GM had that embedded in the code. Perhaps they were hoping for a solution to the NOX problem.
The solution was more expensive hardware (catalytic converters).
As for the Saturn, it uses a unique ECU that likely comes from Suzuki, but I imagine you could repin a 2.2 ECU from a Chevy to work.
@@robotcantina8957 I think I mentioned this in the first lean burn video. The ecu ignored the O2 for 60 sec and calculated the injector pulse width for a leaner/specified ratio. It also advanced the timing by 10 degrees or so. It seemed to only be enabled (at least in the fbody cars) in 86 but was left in the code with the speed to enable set to 255.
@@Rusty8592 A light bulb goes off for me when ever
I watch ROBOT CANTINA videos...
@@ocdman202 You put the you in thank you Thank you ROBOT CANTINA.
Extended effort and dedication, for an impressive result! Really fun to watch 🙂 Now waiting for next week's dose of Robot Cantina 🙂
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Now this sounds so neat..
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The distance between insanity and genius is measured by success..
Keep going Jimbo.... we are along for the ride!
I would rather watch ROBOT CANTINA than anything on NUTFLIX 😜😜😜
NUTFLIX!!
@@ocdman202 The nuts and chews are the best kind of candy.
Looking forward to more from ROBOT CANTINA!!!! You go JIMBO!!
No experiment can ever prove that a scientific theory is true; we can only demonstrate that its validity either extends or fails to extend to whatever regime we test it in
Yes, there are farmer’s markets and foliage tours in Massachusetts, but you know that if you’re gonna take a fall trip, you have to go to Salem. Check out the Salem Haunted Happenings, which runs through the month of October and is all about witches. There are historical tours of the graveyards where the real-life Salem residents accused of witchcraft are buried, plus local restaurants and bars run specials on food and drinks. There’s a massive street party on Halloween, too.
I wish my economy experiment worked as good as yours, I built a 99 civic with a D15Z7 1.5l lean burn engine, long gear transmission, manual steering rack, anticipating 60 MPG but got a max of 47,....Its a slow car that wouldnt beat a Prius in a drag race
If you want to play with the crankshaft position sensor, forget the wheel on the crankshaft, the wheel on most 4 cylinder GM engines is removable from the crank, so you can get another one and mount it on the pulley then make a bracket to mount the sensor.
That's where they are on cars with the GM Family 1 engine such as the Daewoo Lanos.
The highest vehicle mileage ever was achieved by 77-year-old Irv Gordon in his 1966 Volvo 1800S. By mid-2014, he had driven more than three million miles, averaging as much as 100,000 miles a year. We salute you, Mr. Gordon.
Hats off to Mr. Gordon.
@@mommapanda5736 Every 7,000 Miles: Wheel Alignment. As noted above, misaligned wheels will cause your tires to wear unevenly. If you notice your tires are unevenly shaped or if your car is pulling to one direction, it means your wheels are misaligned. Even if you don’t see any of the signs of misalignment, it’s a good idea to have your alignment checked every other oil change to nip any problems in the bud.
@@ocdman202
Cosmic microwave background
The Big Bang theory holds the universe rapidly exploded into being 13.8 billion years ago. The cosmic microwave background (CMB), which dates back to about 400,000 years after the Big Bang, shows the heat left behind. Although the radiation is too cold for humans to see, it is visible on the microwave part of the electromagnetic spectrum. The CMB was found in 1965 by researchers at the Bell Telephone Laboratories, but in 2013, scientists used the European Space Agency's Planck satellite to measure radiation to get the best picture possible of the birth of the universe.
@@ocdman202 Yes..... nip any problems in the bud.
Lithium-ion batteries were first introduced to the public in a Sony camcorder in 1991. Then they revolutionized our lives. The versatile batteries now power everything from tiny medical implants and smartphones to forklifts and expensive electric cars.
I have learned to always bring ice to parties... there is never enough.
Do you bring the soft drinks also?
@@mommapanda5736 The soft drinks and the beer.
Kept popping up on my recommendation, it was right. I liked this, great work
I look forward to these on Sunday!
“‘Life is a drama full of tragedy and comedy,’ Mom told me. ‘You should learn to enjoy the comic episodes a little more.‘”
I wouldn't worry about acceleration. That Saturn in this experiment is fast enough. Think of it like the people behind you are waiting for a grandma to get up to speed and it's their responsibility to be safe behind you. Love these videos.
Good point here.
@@ocdman202 Can't wait to see what this channel does next
@@kansasrose2909 I am looking forward to another video from ROBOT CANTINA!
Just in awe of these videos, still drive a sl1 as my daily.
The sarcasm really adds a lot to these videos. Kudos
Did you see all of season one????
We are all looking forward to more videos from ROBOT CANTINA@
Thanks for update. This series is so interesting to me. Looking forward to more video. Phil
My first car was an SL1 sedan in that same candy apple red. I was told there were only a few made in that color. Nice to see one still kicking!
I am really looking forward to more from Robot Cantina...
The West Side Nut Club Fall Festival is taking place in Evansville from Oct. 3 to 8, and you should totally go. You’ll find over 130 food vendors, free entertainment, carnival rides, and two parades. Over 200,000 people attend the Nut Club Fall Festival every year, making it the second largest street festival in the country.
A long time ago (in an nightmare commute far far away) I found the BSFC (Brake-Specific Fuel Consumption) Torque Speed map for a Saturn S-Series DOHC engine. I was *never* able to find one for an SOHC engine, so I don't know the RPM + Engine Torque (aka load) sweet spot for your SOHC engines. If you had a DOHC, then it would be 2500 RPM @ 124.8 Nm (newton-metre). However, with all of your equipment, you could probably generate your own BSFC map.
This sounds very interesting... in a galaxy somewhere distant!
I was more excited than I should have been seeing the Golf GTI/R represented on the dyno slide! Get a DSG transmission and its the ultimate fartbox! Thanks as always for the content!
Since I have been watching all the episodes of ROBOT CANTINA.. I have been able to keep a smile on
my face and a song in my heart..
Sometimes I put on ROBOT CANTINA just to hear the nice music...
@@mommapanda5736 I have been watching the videos since way
back when.... now I have them on repeat...
I like to keep ROBOT CANTINA up and running when I
am doing chores in the garage...
@@ocdman202 I have watched all of season one of ROBOT CANTINA, you?
@@mommapanda5736 Sure have! Loads of fun!
Great choice in Background music
This is honestly my favorite channel on youtube nowadays. I always look forward to the latest release of Robot Cantina! It's pretty astounding to think that you are quite literally "hacking" these cars. A point you brought up really struck me... the fact that the factory computer has no idea that any of this is going on but yet still yield a result. Basically the definition of hacking lol. Hats off to you for figuring all this out, it really is amazing, not to mention entertaining!
My favorite on you tube also...
@@ocdman202 Man, this is by far the best you = tube channel. ROBOT CANTINA all the way!
Can't wait to see what this channel does next
10 years ago I was getting 57 mpg average (60+ on long trips), from my company car.
Renault claimed 70 mpg, but I only got that doing 55 on the Motorway, which is terrifying!!
Adding the map reading elements of the smart throttle to the cruise control would be very cool. It would also have the possibility of removing the second throttle body because the cruise control would perform the same function of controlling the throttle
Looking forward to another great video from ROBOT CANTINA..
This just makes me miss my old SL2, one of the more reliable cars I have owned not to mention one of the best cars to teach stick on. (Had a friend that would constantly forget to press the clutch when trying to shift)
Where has this channel been all my life!?
The way they bypassed the need for a cam sensor was to use the resistance of the waste spark ignition on the #4 cylinder on the exhaust stroke to calculate cam position.
What's odd is when these Saturn's throw a code for a non-existent cam sensor. But they can act up with some aftermarket plugs and wires that run low impedence as it gives back improper readings.
Also, haven't watched all your vids yet, but have you tried tricking the egr into opening sooner/staying open longer?
I just love your little show.. My 1995 ford escort wagon is now running on propane. I was very disappointed in ford.. the mpg is horrible.. nothing wrong with the car but probably ac use.. gets 30 mpg with gasoline and only 21 mpg with propane.. I have a 1980's mechanical distributor that I think will fit on so.. maybe advanced timing will help? .. come up to Belvue Ks sometime at my Old Country Woodworks shop and check it out...
with out a cam sensor you can still do wasted spark, fire 2 cylinders, 1 will bang the other exhaust. Injectors can be pulsed all 4 at the same time even.
5:03 ...wait until you hear about electronic gaspedals.... they are part of every car now since ~mid 2000's and work in a similar way, just not only focused on fuel economy and with some more sensor-shenanigans...
Sensor shenanigans👍👍👍👍👍👍 just waiting for more videos here.
Take a look into air temp sensor, you may be able to do a variable resistor to trick it to think it hotter or cooler and it should change timing. (Ebay sellers sell them and performance “chips”)
In Las Cruces, you can enjoy the Renaissance ArtsFaire from Nov. 5 to 6. While this isn’t your typical autumn activity, imagine how much fun you’ll have dressing up, taking in the entertainment across two stages, watching historical re-enactments, taking a canoe ride, and dropping your kids at the “children’s realm” before grabbing some much-deserved wine. (Or is it mead? Does it matter?)
5:12 this quote made me laugh my ass off, iirc AvE's daughter said something similar about the cnc machine. "I think machines are dangerous because they're stupid and have no soul"
Great book. So fantastic. So many jewels, this book is worth thousands of dollars easily. Ill be reading this book at least once every year. 10 out of 10 business book
So fantastic.... ROBOT CANTINA has so many jewels.... books for the library of videos....
Every scientific theory has a finite range of validity: inside that range, the theory is indistinguishable from true, outside of that range, the theory is no longer true.
Here are some jewels for your library..☀☀☀☀☀☀☀
You might want to try tapping into the Intake Air Temp sensor -- this might be integrated in the MAF. It should be a simple therrmistor. At least on the 87 GN, the IAT would vary the timing by a few degrees, so a rheostat in place off the IAT might give you just what you need, if the 96 ECU still has that logic.
Was thinking of this as well while watching.
Was thinking it could also dump more fuel along with it because it thinks it's getting colder and denser air.
@@bleach_drink_me typically the ecu reduces the fuel injected, higher iats result in less dense air which doesn't require as much fuel as denser air to achieve target air fuel ratios.
@@mitchelllaughton9891 I'm going off of how my nissan ecu works when tuning.
Higher the iat the lower the timing, if it gets too warm it enriches the afr slightly to help cool down the cylinder Temps. I have absolutely no idea how others are setup or if it was just special in my base tune. Now I want to get a stock map and see.
@@bleach_drink_me Love the comments here...
Inching closer toward horror than comedy, this Joss Whedon hit ends up on pretty much everyone’s list of favorite horror movies. And how could it not? The Cabin in the Woods both celebrates and dismantles the classic horror tropes we all know and love
CABIN IN THE WOODS ..... one of my favorites..
Checkout the Dynatek Dyna 2000 to control ignition timing. I think it will work with the Saturn ignition coil & ecu by intercepting the output to the coils & altering timing of the coils input.
First thing that came to my mind is adding a LPG injection. That would be interesting!
To use LPG efficiently he would need engine with much higher compression ratio and different cylinder ratio, and having ability to actually have a map for timing advance.
As for timing advance, solution simply to piggy-back speeduino to the system, having speeduino having all the inputs, but controlling only ignition.
More fuss is with compression ratio. Running on LPG with poor fuel economy is always cheaper anyway, but ofc volumetric -wise fuel economy will be worse. OTOH LPG is better for engine as it allows running engine more rich at same cost, and with slower burn front it does not strain crank bearings so much as normal gasoline does. last but not least it does not pollute or dilute oil like gasoline. But that matters only for new cars you are planning to keep for some time, for old Saturn destined for scrap it is not worth the hassle.
@@piotrcurious1131 This is a fantastic comment.... A light bulb just went off here....
with a standalone ECU and water injection you should prevent pinging and get really high AFR.I tried on 2008 ford fiesta but the original ECU couldnt be tricked.
The very Orwellian computer. The computer, the cold and calculating computer. Loved it! Great engineering content and hilarious commentary.
Going a bit rich on the A/F ratio does way more for fuel efficiency than going excessively lean. It's counter-intuitive but that's how the old-timers 'fixed' the shyte fuel milage numbers the first emissions-compliant vehicles suffered from in th 1970's and 80's and beyond.
Rejecting from the stoichiometric ~14.7:1 to ~ 12.8 - 13:1 (depending on fuel type and compression ratio) often yielded 15% to even 30+% fuel mileage numbers for very little effort other than swapping out a set of jets in the carburetors.
On modern EFI engines that same 'rejetting' can be done by cheating the O2 sensor signals by putting a simple germanium diode in series, Its low ~.2 to.3 volt forward drop cheats the signal slightly rich while still staying in the working range of the sensor making the ECM think its still running the engine in the stoichiometric range.
How exactly could running richer than the stoichiometric ratio be more fuel efficient? Any richer and the extra fuel ends up going out the exhaust unburned. If you target a ratio somewhat leaner than 14.7:1, you can improve efficiency in two ways. First and most obviously, running leaner than stoich helps ensure that all the fuel is burned and no unburned fuel is wasted out the exhaust. Second and perhaps less obviously, since less power is generated at any given throttle position with leaner air fuel ratios, a higher throttle opening is required to maintain the same power output, reducing pumping losses and therefore creating a higher effective compression ratio. That's one of the main reasons lean burn engines like the Honda Civic VX and HX and first gen Insight are so ridiculously fuel efficient.
But whatever you do, proceed with caution. Running excessively rich can result in carbon buildup, damage to catalytic converters, greatly reduced oil life, and unnecessary wear to pistons, rings, and cylinders. Running too lean for the given conditions can cause damage to the engine and exhaust system by increasing cylinder temps and exhaust gas temps. One of the biggest reasons modern engines last so much longer than pre EFI engines did is because of much more precise fuel delivery, which nearly eliminates the seriously rich and lean conditions that used to be so common.
@@averyalexander2303 Nope. It's an odd quirk of how gasoline works. As I said. It's counter-intuitive to what most think.
Also getting rid of all the other emission systesm comments makes a considerable improvement not with most engines as well.
No need for caoution. I've bene working with this stuff for about 35 years now and know the ins and out very well. It's old knowledge that was well proven back from the early days of 'fixing' emissions compliance to be fuel efficient. not new.
@@tcmtech7515 Do you know of any studies backing up that theory that you'd be willing to share? I haven't seen any, but that's not to say they don't exist. All the data I found shows that lean air/fuel ratios are more efficient, hence the creation of lean burn engines.
I do believe that the emissions systems can have a significant negative effect on fuel efficiency and performance, especially when they were new and still had many flaws. Modern emissions systems aren't nearly as bad, but still can affect performance and efficiency, especially on diesel engines.
@@averyalexander2303 Ever use anything with a small 1 or two-cylinder engine that runs from a simple carburetor and you had to run it with the choke part way on to get it to run right and have any power?
If so, did you ever notice that when running that way with the choke part way on it somehow managed to also use less fuel to do the same work as compared to when running it with it all the way off?
In my role as a workforce optimization coach, I have found it the best practice to recommend this amazing book to my clients who are growing their business and leaders
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I’ve never been a “numbers” person and the class I struggled with the most in business school was Accounting
It’s so fascinating to follow profitability through a company’s financial journal,
Saturn has "Wasted-spark" type of ignition. Every rotation one of the pistons from pair (1&4 and 2&3) has compression&power stroke. So you just need 1 rotation of crankshaft to get ECU in correct table for ignition.
Probably has batch fire fuel injection too, not true sequential.
@@theatomproject007 agree here on sequential.
The Saturn we use for the videos actually has sequential EFI even though it lacks a cam position sensor. A few folks in the comment section have done a decent job explaining how it works, but basically the ECU is using some clever magic and monitoring the coil pack module. its very interesting on how it works.
@@robotcantina8957 very interesting! Throw a Speeduino in batch mode on it!
@@robotcantina8957 How many connectors are there on the ignition control module? If it's two then it's batch fire, If it's one then it's sequential.
Great job on the camera work during the drive. I can see your filming and editing skills just keep getting better and better over time.
Me too.... He is doing a hell of job on these videos
@@ocdman202 One hell of a job.
Looking forward to more from ROBOT CANTINA!!
Ideas are a dime a dozen... It is the people that implement them that are priceless.
You mean JIMBO is priceless?
OR JIMBO needs more dimes...
@@kansasrose2909 More dimes and loose change under your couch pillows..
@@ocdman202 That fuel economy is really the talk of the town.
@@mommapanda5736 I have been binge watching this channel...
You could use the IAT to make the computer add timing. You already have a system to keep it from enriching the fuel for the colder IAT reading. A potentiometer on the IAT circuit to make it read 32F or just unplug it. It normally defaults to -32F when unplugged anyway.
Unplugging it will 100% cause a fault code and it'll go into limp mode. Using a potentiometer however... that's good thinking. Nearly all IAT's are NTC type which means more resistance = cooler reading.
However this assumes the factory tune increases ignition with lower-than-usual temperatures. It'll also add more fuel too, Jimbo would have to offset his lean burn threshold even more to compensate. It's not impossible to do it this way but a bit of a challenge.
I know on Fords of this era, the IAT sensor doesn't add timing, only removes it.
No limp mode with most early OBD-IIs. (Doesnt even come with factory electronic throttle) Unplugging it will read -32f just as he said.
excited to see how the wagon goes. I drove a 94sw2 5mt in gold for a few years, getting rid of it in 2019. it probably set the record for least MPG in a saturn.
I drove it super hard, ran the a/c and often hauled three kayaks on top of it.
do yourself a favor and go ahead and remove/fix the headliner. otherwise the fiberglass falls out and feels great in your eyes.
Oh my goodness, three kayaks!🛶🛶🛶
@@ocdman202 OMG fiberglass in the eyes🙈🙈🙈🙈🙈
The work is amazing that you put in to this. And it is fun to get an understanding on how different components effect the performance of the engine. I had an 1995 Volvo 440 SE 2.0. It had an PSA motor that used a simple EFI system with MAP-sensor in the intake, water temp and air temp. And it used an DIM ignition with the ford style combined coil-pack. It averaged 6.5l/100km in city/urban driving. But on longer trips (400km+) we could get it to 4.5l/100km. I would have loved to have been able to dig in tot that ECM and see what type of witchcraft the PSA engineers managed. It also just accepted an 50/50 gas e85 mix. Even tough the fuel economy suffered.
Anyhow, great content as usual :)
Looking forward to another great video from ROBOT CANTINA.
90' ECUs should not throw codes even when load signal is quite offset from normal. In 2000s piggyback devices was very popular. I used that kind device to rise power in early VW's 1.8T 20V engine. With installed bigger injectors I decreased maf signal to prevent flooding on low load areas (early 1.8T doesn't have map and even boost was controlled using air flow). With maf signal alteration I need to retard timing because when ECU reads less load and increased timing and that device can shift many types of trigger signal to counteract that issue. I used locally manufactured ecumaster DET3 (full standalone ECUs of that manufacturer are available in USA). Even Craig Liberman's 600-700HP Toyota Supra from Fast and Furious movie was stuffed with ECU piggyback devices.