I will do a follow up video after the whole series airs to see how right or wrong I was, and just to give my overall takes on the series in general. Thank you all for enjoying my opinions on this! If you're interested in my real time thoughts and feelings after each episode follow me on twitter! Ya'll are the best :)
Very curious to see how the series pans out, and what your take on it will be. Personally I think (really I hope) that a lot of the negatives in the representation of Loki’s gender identity you’ve pointed out are intentional misdirects. For example, while Lady Loki (who does take on a different name in Ep. 3, but I won’t go further here to avoid spoilers) is initially portrayed as the villain, she’s labeled as such by the TVA, an organization that even in the pilot is depicted as a group that shouldn’t be trusted. Hiddloki’s “khaki-fication” could be seen as them attempting to repress who he really is, only for the character to reclaim his identity as the end of the series. But most importantly, going into wild theory territory, I think Lady Loki is going to die by the end of the series and Hiddloki will begin taking her appearance (albeit sporadically) as a way to honor her and express his gender fluidity. I can’t say if that would be good representation, but I have suspicions that’s where the creators are going by introducing that character
I'm so glad you're going to make another video especially with them confirming Loki as bi now in the third episode. I was not expecting them to do it and that gives me a *tiny bit* of hope they may not mess up his gender identity. And even if they cis-wash him, it seems like they're coding Sylvie as a trans woman wich could be interesting too if done right
@@manuba_ Yes!!! Lets hope Kate Herron directs this series well enough for that to happen since she somehow managed to confirm his bisexuality so naturally and not forced. There has been speculation on that last part because of Sylvie being so insistent on not being called Loki.
Let’s not forget the many implied lgbt characters and all those articles online about “Disney’s first _____ character in new movie” despite not being confirmed (often hinted at through various ways but also stereotypes), probably not having many or any lines, and already having many many articles like that about different Disney movies.
They're trying to copyright Loki, which is even worse than a trademark. Too bad no one told them they can't issue a copyright for something in the public domain. The concept of Loki has existed for at LEAST a thousand years.
with how much kevin feige has mentioned batteling Disney about queer (and formerly POC) representation as well as alex hersh’s recent statements (and a few others like Star vs, and Owl House) if seems like you really need to stick your neck out for even background queer rep at Disney and there will be consequences and compromise/concessions in negotiations
Now that you mention The Owl House, which is currently a very popular show, seems kinda weird to me that they would limit it to three seasons (the third one being only a three special hour-long episodes) precisely being their first show with a female queer POC protagonist that has a same sex romantic interest, when even the creator has expressed wanting more episodes. …Anyway, Disney I guess.
This reminds me of what Mads Mikkelsen said once in a Vulture interview: ”I think there is a certain budget limit where it’s not the director’s film anymore. Somebody else is the boss. You’re trying to be creative while you’re wearing handcuffs, and it’s difficult.”
why is disney trying to copyright everything... norse gods are extremely important to nordic populations + it reminds me of when the finebros wanted to trademark the word REACT
The following is copy-paste from another reply I made, since people don't understand copyright: They're not "trying" to copyright anything, because we live in a world where the French convinced everyone to get rid of copyright formalities (the U.S. only did this around 50 years ago). Marvel's rendition of Loki can most likely be copyrighted if it differs enough from the Norse deity. Of course, any aspects from the original myths can be used freely, and the Marvel character would probably have a weak-ish copyright. The only thing Disney is trying to do is claim that their rendition of the character is copyrightable. Edit: Of course, I'm all for copyright reform, such as a 14 year copyright with a 14 year extension, combined with everyone keeping the natural right to copy noncommercially.
Yeah this is how Disney rolls with LGBT "representation". Hey, let's have a director cameo mention his boyfriend for like 10 seconds and we never see him again. 2 nameless women kiss in the background. Erm, this character is canonically bi but god forbid we actually show it! JUST SLAP GENDER FLUID ON A PIECE OF PAPER! WOW, AMAZING REPRESENTATION!!!
tbh i don’t even expect good representation at this point edit: after watching the video further im actually quite angry because i realised this isn’t just poor representation but dangerous representation
@@DarkPulsaterLiteGear This is true, but the creator fought tooth and nail with Disney to keep the show and her characters the way she wanted. That is to say, to keep that representation in. Disney doesn't deserve credit for that representation in any way shape or form. (Not that you said that, but I'm saying it. XD) That being said, the Owl House is amazing.
@@xxx-ie9ic to be fair, Disney itself has not created anything and deserves no credit. They just own the rights. All the real work is done by the film crew and actors, and the special effect artists. Effect artists and stuntmen deserve more recognition. Also this applies to games publishers, too
I feel like all of this would've been handled better if Disney wasn't in charge. I read about Tessa Thompson and Taika Waititi filming a scene in Thor: Ragnarok showing Valkyrie's bisexuality, only for it to get cut (likely because of Disney's meddling.) I believe there was a similar situation with a queer romance in Black Panther as well, so it doesn't surprise me. Unfortunately, I doubt Disney is going to change their ways anytime soon.
for me personally though, I actually loved that Valkyrie got no romantic scenes. It's like - every single time there's a female main character, there has to be a plot about who they hook up with. (which you don't always see with male characters) So I found it refreshing that Valkyrie was nobody's love interest and just got to be bad ass, and treated equally, platonically. Also, that they made her a drunk also added depth to her character. She's one of my favorite characters.
@@dorianr4770 Exactly and Takia/Russo's also had Thor try to make out with her at the end of endgame ending awkwardly in a I don't like you like that kind of way from Valkyrie. I like the way ragnorak came out and in love and Thunder I fully expect and want her to have a queen by herside. She seems down as an actress and it can be edited out for the Chinese censors but would still be awesome to see for those of us in European and American markets.
i personally find it really frustrating that "sex: fluid" being listed on a file is likely going to be the closest the show will get to a discussion of loki's gender. it would be genuinely interesting to see the show fully tackle how a character whose sex is fluid due to shapeshifting might view gender, but i find the possibility of that being explored incredibly unlikely.
this is kind of an issue i have with a lot of media in general. so many fictional stories that i enjoy tackle themes that would be really interesting if shown through a trans lens, but very few of them actually do so.
Completely agree... They delve into things so shallowly. They could hire me for one day and I'd be able to whack together something better than what they put out and I'm not even a writer I'm just a genderfluid person :/
The latest episode touched up on Loki's identity. They are the same person, but a variant that goes with the name Sylvie instead of Loki and appears female. Identifying as female
@@trixicenby999 just watched the latest episode, and i don't personally think sylvie's existence counts as exploring loki's genderfluidity - she's basically treated as a separate character, although her changing her name to sylvie and being uncomfortable with the name loki might possibly mean she's supposed to be trans? idk, we'll have to see what happens in later episodes with that. as for loki's sexuality, that is touched on in the most recent episode, but only very briefly in one line.
@@needsanewbrain Yeah I think we have to wait and se. Their relationship hasn't developed more and I honestly think There's more to come and I think Tom even mentioned Loki being genderfluid. About Loki's sexuality I like it and Happy that they are taking steps forward, I'm glad that they atleast confirmed that he's not straight.
Every time Brennen says Ey/Em at the beginning of an ep I automatically go “eyyyyyy” outloud. It feels like a tick at this point. Welp this has loki spoilers so i’ll be back later.
An issue I have with Loki's file, besides the aforementioned points that sex =/= gender or sexuality, is why sex is listed as fluid when height and eye color aren't. The whole reasoning behind putting sex as fluid is his ability to shapeshift. So why are eye color and height not also listed as fluid? I haven't watched the show yet so maybe it's explained there. I don't know. It just doesn't make sense to me why the characteristics listed in the file about Loki's physical form aren't listed consistently. On another note, it'd be nice if the show explores Loki's relation with gender in a positive or at least neutral way but I'm not counting on it. Also that him conforming to the system is just a temporary thing until he regains his freedom or somehow breaks out.
Oof you're right....I suppose you could say that hair and eye are listed that way bc it's his ~most common form~ but...yeah it doesn't really hold up. Dang :/
Good point, if they were going to say his sec can change at will, then his other identifying features should have been listed as such. Like his typical appearance and then list fluid/variable. But I do think “fluid” should have been used under gender not sex
I haven't watched the show yet, but at least from my little knowledge of the comics whenever he was a woman he kept most of his distinct features, same color hair and eyes so maybe that's why? or they're just being dumb as always
kinda random but remember when Disney tried to copywrite "Day of the Dead" for their merch but they couldn't because it was y'know, AN ACTUAL HOLIDAY!?!
don't even get started on the self-cest plotline they're implying between Sylvie and Loki, it's the Onceler fandom all over again (and don't say it's ok cause they're different people, they are both variations of Loki (Sylvie is called a *Loki* Variant for most episodes)
@@Axxidous I agree with everything said! But the LGBT+ people would be happy to see some representation, so they'd think "Hm, why not watch this show with people I like?" and then go watch Loki. Which is obviously bad, but that's what Marvel wants. I really feel like they should just include him being bi in the story, and not just put that randomly on the show.
@@Axxidous yes!! I completely agree what you're saying. But they HAD such great opportunities to really represent him being bi, and they didn't do it. They instead forced a self incest relationship down our throats.
24:54 exactly. my dad isn’t homophobic but he’s also not not homophobic. like he’s an old dude, what do i expect. anyway, we watched all of black sails together which just made me so happy. the fact we were able to watch a show with SEVERAL queer characters together was just amazing. not even background characters, THE MAIN CHARACTERS. i can tell it definitely made him view queer people as more than just gay. they can be badass complex pirates too.
The same happen with my dad, we watched Bohemian Rhapsody and watching Mercurie's journey he sympathized a lot with him, he even remembered how long ago, when he was young his friends and him stopped hearing his music and dancing to it because they found out he was "gay", my parents country is also pretty homophobic, he regretted that since the music was and still is amazing. My house might not have raised me as tolerant and supporting of other's people sexualities or gender, but at least they didn't raise me homophobic.
My parents aren’t for démonstration of queer characters in films, they don’t want us to show how queer we are, and think famous people Being queer is just commercial or
I think it would be cool if you did a follow up of this video once the series is over and talk about how it could've been better written or how you would've written it.
as a genderfluid person, this show has really disappointed me so far. i love loki as a character and i was really looking forward to it, but i couldnt even just be excited because i worried about how badly marvel would mess up lokis identity. the thing with "lady loki" is especially bad, at least as of episode two...... having an alternate universe version of a character who is evil and also effectively a different person present as a different gender is really great genderfluid representation, absolutely! /s you said some things i hadnt even realized too, like the.. implications of loki being made to conform to be the protagonist. just. thank you for talking about this
Don't even with the evil thing it showed in the second episode that there have been many Loki Variants with some looking completely different any every way with only their names as a constant
lady loki was never evil. Even before the episodes where it shows she was completely justified she was only evil from the perspective of the TVA, whose fascism and callousness is evident from episode 1.
Please actually watch the show before you say this stuff its shown loki is very common malicious variant they even slide between multiple versions of him and she's revealed to be good as anyone whos watched anything marvel could easily see as the upcoming plot twist
@@willowzgaming7057 I know that Sylvie is good. I was refering to the statement made int the comment, but didn't use the future knowledge i had gained from EP 3 - 4 to counter it. I instead took it from the point of view as if I had never seen Ep 3 - 4. And one of the variants they show is Lance Armstrong Loki, aka a Loki who took Lance's place and won the Tour De France. I really don't see how that's evil, maybe a little unfair since Loki is a demigod Jotun, but nevertheless definitely not outright malicious.
Y'all should read loki: Agent of Asgard. It's been a while since I read it and I have a bad memory so I don't remember a whole lot about it, but I remember enjoying it. Loki is rather unabashedly gender fluid in there though.
honestly him openly admitting he is bisexual was fantastic in the latest episode in addition to them seemingly making lady loki into the protagonist (at least, that's what I gathered) like i have a bit higher hopes that maybe it will be actually good
me: loves Loki and the new series also me: is very frustrated with how media that claims to be “inclusive” glosses over the queerness of canonically queer characters and fears that the Loki series will follow in its footsteps
Honestly, agreed. I absolutely love the show and the storyline. But after being promised representation and it barely scraping the surface just annoys me
theres also amity from the owl house who explicitly has a crush on luz noceda, the main character of the show, which is really great but the creator(who is bi herself) probably had to fight so hard for it
So now I'm officially out and using she/they pronouns. Your videos really taught me a lot about queer culture, fighting for your identity, ect. So thank you, you played a big part in me finding out who I am
@@vinnyart92 or maybe because he is a narcissist he is actually just in love with himself in the way a narcissist is if yk what i mean. like in Loki's mind he's thinking I'm so perfect or smth
Loki’s sex being fluid, then the show going out of it’s way to affirm his gender as a man (Episode 5 “have you ever met a female version of us”) has been so damaging to me. It’s the fact that they would rather make him NOT cisgender than not fit the gender binary (aka being sex-fluid but not gender-fluid). Also that Disney is more willing to portray heterosexual self-cest than a homosexual relationship is really slapping me in the face. I went into the show knowing about a female variant and being so hopeful for queer rep, and ended up exposed to clear evidence of homophobic narrative decisions. Like imagine going in expecting acceptance and then finding out, no Disney thinks self-cest is less weird and gross than queerness. Also the way these transphobic decisions created sexism too, just bleh
Hey i get what you mean but this isn't true when it comes to the myths. We cannot map any modern labels onto these myths, loki's perceived genderfluidity in the myths only ever comes in the form of insults and it might just be a "conflating sexuality and gender" type of thing since they are only in their fem presenting form when having sex with a man (basically contributing to the idea that queer men are closer to women than other men and that the person bottoming doesn't count as a man) . The whole mare thing is actually an insult made literal. In medieval norse times it was a big deal to call a man a mare because it implies that he enjoys anal sex and to bottom for someone, which was seen as shameful. For this insult they could be legally allowed to kill you in retaliation. In the myths (i recall this happening twice in the Lokasenna) the word argi/ergi is used against Loki. I'm not an expert on this but the word basically serves to demonize any "deviant" behaviour so it's probs not far from a slur. The parts about Loki shapeshifting their sex might just be conflating sexuality with gender like I said before. Also, again i am not an expert on this. Most of this info I got from someone I follow and that has studied Norse Mythology and the history of the time period in which it was put onto paper. (also that specific person is genderfluid themself so that is another reason why i'm taking their word on this) All of this to say that IT IS PERFECTLY FINE TO ADAPT LOKI AS GENDERFLUID NOW but it is probs not a good idea to map onto the myths (that were full of bad stereotypes that are still used today) and it's tots not a good idea to ever give them credit for "making loki genderfluid" since they don't seem to view it as a good thing. And to add i 100% headcanon and think of Loki as genderfluid and i fucking hope it makes those long dead bigots real fucking mad. When it comes to the comics tho! Yeah Loki is genderfluid and anyone that says otherwise has not read shit about the character. If anyone questions if Marvel Loki rlly is genderfluid just tell them that they have canonly labeled themself as such in The Unbeatable Squirrel Girl vol.2 #27.
@@Carolina57685 it should be noted that the concepts of ergi only began to encroach into Norse society with the arrival of Christianity. They had a very long oral history tradition...runic writing was reserved for special occasions such as grace stones, battle memorials, etc. Both the prose and poetic eddas were written down by Christian monks, centuries after the arrival of Judeo-Christian ideals in Scandinavia. The gods are much older, thus Loki's fluidity is more tied to his ability to use magic--which was definitely gendered towards women, it was seen as a woman's art. Which culminates in the hypocrisy illustrated in the Lokasenna, where Loki calls out Odin criticizing him for doing the exact same thing.
The community is so desperate for representation...any representation...it makes me sad to see them celebrating any nod in mainstream media/entertainment. As a black man, also...I can understand this. But it can also be a trap.
Disney is late to the breakthrough. Steven Universe sacrificed itself for representation and basically got cancelled for the wedding kiss (that's why the ending was rushed and they had to rebrand with Steven Universe Future to tie up the loose ends.) Investors pulled out from the show and they couldn't afford to go on any longer from what I know.
Yup! Actually cartoons in general have been fighting for a really long time which resulted in an increase in representation in the last 10-20 years. It’s amazing honestly, even if there is still a long way to go. Legend of Korra was also struggling to get a lesbian relationship confirmed. In the end, they could only confirm it in the final episode in fear of having the show cancelled. I believe that was 10 years ago give or take. I think that was the first mainstream cartoon to do something like that. I think in a lot of cases, it’s the creators of these stories fighting against the networks. They are passionate about their stories and are willing to fight for them.
this is exactly what ive been failing to say to my cis friends this entire time. i enjoy the show a lot and im mostly glad with the direction that episode 3 went with but it is a bit upsetting that marvel has confirmed that there will be a female version of loki just for it to end up being a completely different character (sorry if my english is bad im russian so i make a lot of mistakes :'( )
To be fair she seems more like a way to introduce the classic Thor villian enchantress without being redundant or offensive. She not really lady Loki as more of enchantress lady Loki blend. 🤷🏾♂️
I replied to someone in the comments with this but I think it might be good to also just post it as a comment. This is a p long comment and I want to make sure that anyone reading understands that i am 100% in favor of queer reading of myth loki and that i think of them as genderfluid (and ofc Marvel Comics Loki is canonly genderfluid) Brennen only refered to Myth Loki as being able to shapeshift irt sex and did not call them genderfluid and that is probs a good idea. We cannot map any modern labels onto these myths, loki's perceived genderfluidity in the myths only ever comes in the form of insults and it might just be a "conflating sexuality and gender" type of thing since they are only in their fem presenting form when having sex with a man (basically contributing to the idea that queer men are closer to women than other men and that the person bottoming doesn't count as a man) . The whole mare thing is actually an insult made literal. In medieval norse times it was a big deal to call a man a mare because it implies that he enjoys anal sex and to bottom for someone, which was seen as shameful. For this insult they could be legally allowed to kill you in retaliation. In the myths (i recall this happening twice in the Lokasenna) the word argi/ergi is used against Loki. I'm not an expert on this but the word basically serves to demonize any "deviant" behaviour so it's probs not far from a slur. The parts about Loki shapeshifting their sex might just be conflating sexuality with gender like I said before. Also, again i am not an expert on this. Most of this info I got from someone I follow and that has studied Norse Mythology and the history of the time period in which it was put onto paper. (also that specific person is genderfluid themself so that is another reason why i'm taking their word on this) (they might not be comfy with me posting their @ on here so sorry about that but most of what i said is just historical context so) All of this to say that IT IS PROBS PERFECTLY FINE TO ADAPT LOKI AS GENDERFLUID NOW but it is probs not a good idea to map onto the myths (that were full of bad stereotypes that are still used today) and it's tots not a good idea to ever give them credit for "making loki genderfluid" since they don't seem to view it as a good thing. And to add i 100% headcanon and think of Loki as genderfluid and i fucking hope it makes those long dead bigots real fucking mad. When it comes to the comics tho! Yeah Loki is genderfluid and anyone that says otherwise has not read shit about the character. If anyone questions if Marvel Loki rlly is genderfluid just tell them that they have canonly labeled themself as such in The Unbeatable Squirrel Girl vol.2 #27. And they are fine with any pronouns and manners of address as seen in Loki (2019) #4 edit: Also fck The Mouse and his poisonous bigoted bs, Loki deserves better and I'd burn down all of Disney if I fcking could.
I to am not an expert but there is also there's one myth where he eats a witches heart and then basically gives birth to every wicked women in the world. While on one hand it is one of the few times Loki gender fluidity and non conformity is not directly tied into sexual activity or deceptions, on the other hand it reads to me as some adam and eve 'original sin' level of transphobia/misogyny beings implemented into a belief system.
*SPOILERS* I mean they’ve confirmed he’s queer when it comes to sexually (episode 3) and his sex is fluid but a lot of the gender implications will come down to if Sylvie was ever the same person and main timeline Loki she changed her name but it’s not confirmation and if she was the same person a lot of nature vs nurture and closet conversations kick in and I don’t trust Disney to handle it well.
Please don't tie Disney to it but the mcu. Has the MCU had a past of letting you down and if so how and why. Hold them to their standards not to Disney live action or star wars faults
@@Thed538dhsk I wrote a reply 2 weeks ago but it somehow disappeared so I’ll past it against Disney has a lot of money and Power over Marvel so it’s naïve to ignore they’re influence but even if you take Disney out of the equation Marvel was run by Ike Perlmutter who was a bigot it pretty much every way imaginable was a major reason it took so long to get female lead film and thought literally all black people look the same which it why he thought nobody would notice the Rhodey recast and why he kept vitoing a Black Panther film because he thought nobody would be able to tell all the black characters appart (he’s also committed a bunch of real crimes but they’re all weird an irrelevant) it took Keven Feige years to get rid of him and even then he still ran the TV decision until recently do if it takes literal years to get rid of someone that openly bigoted it’s reasonable to assume A)some of the people he hired as higher ups aren’t great either b) people who are still bigots but not as obvious about it are even harder to fire. Marvel as a company also has problems.
To me Loki and Thor from avengers feels stupid as an actual Nordic person. Americans makes most things wired... But if you like this then you should read the Magnus Chase books if you haven’t. I feel like you would like them, they have a lot of good representation and are very funny.
I’m so glad I wasn’t the only trans/enby person who felt that solely referring to their sex felt wrong. not only is it extremely minimal representation just to do the file bit (if that’s all that they’re going to/able to do), it reinforces the idea that gender and sex are equal. I really want it in stone that Loki is still who they are even if they don’t shapeshift to portray that in a cisnormative way. personally, I look pretty feminine almost all the time- because of lack of security/resources and because sometimes I WANT to be feminine. but I’m still nonbinary no matter what I choose or don’t choose to look like. vent over, I think 😂 I might add to this as I continue to watch the video edit: I’M ALSO SO GLAD THAT I WASN’T THE ONLY ONE WHO DIDN’T FEEL RIGHT ABOUT THE LADY LOKI/ENCHANTRESS REVEAL. like holy shit. having a female villain is cool, but 1. literally she’s probably going to be the only female/non-male Loki representation and 2. SHE MIGHT NOT EVEN BE A VERSION OF LOKI SO WE MIGHT NOT EVEN GET CONCRETE NON-MALE LOKI REPRESENTATION. and just making the (possible) non-male and non cisnormative Loki variant so devilishly evil? ew please I need the other episodes to fix this, I’ve been enjoying the series but I’m going to get more frustrated if this keeps going on
agreed! honestly I'd rather have them not try to tackle lady loki at all if they're going to butcher her and loki's gender fluidity. sylvie seems interesting, but it's weird to me that they're saying she's a loki variant, though that might be just because I'm a comics fan who already knows the character to be somebody different. I've discussed this with other people- she's an entirely different entity from loki, we dont see her as a loki variant, and she also seems set on separating herself from being a loki. also, yeah, lovely that the first explicitly stated to be queer characters are villains/anti-heroes who have murdered hundreds. thanks disney! /s
also was anyone else majorly disappointed with loki: where mischief lies claiming to have canon genderfluid loki but it was just like 2 sentences and occasionally he wore vaguely gnc clothing?
I know you were talking about live action shows/movies but The Owl House is a Disney cartoon with a lot of promise. A plot in one of the episodes was the character's fear of being rejected by their same-gender crush(who is bi). At the end of the episode they had a very gay dance (look up grom fight dance). The creator said the relationship will be developed further and I'm really hopeful. Even if they don't develop a relationship the one character stated she has a crush on a girl so they take that back from us.
Not to mention that the show it self is created by a Bi woman and the protagonist of the show (Luz) was recently confirmed by the creator herself that she's gender non conforming, and even though this fact is never stated in the show out loud, we can see by the way she dresses and talks about herself sometimes (for example when she says she's a "bad boy") that this was intentional, and I think it's a pretty casual and cool way of doing GNC representation. I believe that's at least two steps in the right direction.
@@imorstrash8985 oh dang! I never knew Luz was gender non conforming, that's so cool! [The 'bad boy' thing makes way more sense now, I just thought it was a cute thing lol] I wonder if this changes things tho, like Amity's crush on her. It wouldn't be a girl having a crush on a 'girl' anymore, so maybe that's why they allowed it? I hope not.
@@imorstrash8985 She did have to fight with Disney over getting in that representation, and now suspiciously Disney's limiting the 3rd season. :/ But.. yes. Luz saying that was not lost on me and it made me SO happy as a nonbinary person.
I absolutely love sex education but I must state not even having trans represantation in any way shape or form and then also making weird jokes that come off as tone deaf (at least to me who is trans/genderfluid) is quit alarming about how Kate will be handling Loki's identity and with recent interviews about Sylvie yeah its gonna be bad
I already ran into the problem of people conflating sex and gender in the context of this show with my mom. I recently came out as trans and nonbinary to my family and was being all cheerful showing me an article somewhere like: "look I read here Loki is gender fluid" and I had to explain to her that no his sex is fluid (or the word I would have chosen "variable") which is not the same as gender. She was a bit put out about it which honestly was a mood. This shit just makes it way more difficult to explain what being trans means.
Im so happy you call them "time cops" too because I don't know what else to call them. (/gen) I hope as the show goes on Loki is less straight and we see him be more freely chaotic. It seems he trusts Mobius a bit more than any of the other time cops (though he's a bit passive aggressive). I want Mobius to be fired get a redemption arc that involves... pretty much the opposite of a regular redemption arc..? I mean he already seems the least time-cop-y of them all. He (although jokingly) said Loki could start burning the TVA down at his desk, enjoys jet ski magazines, and doesn't use a coaster. Man is wild (/s). I think Loki will be a protagonist by the end but in a anti-hero sort of way (?) rather than a perfectly pure angel way. (/srs)
I literally ranted to my sibling about this and the most recent "Loki is bi" mess. I swear Loki has been confirmed gender fluid and pan for YEARS, but it just wasn't mentioned in the MCU, until now. The headlines have been saying that he's bi, but he is canonically pan in the comics, so it hurts to see the blatant pan eraser. They are pretty much patting themselves on their backs for doing the minimum.
The biggest issue is you are relying on comics and movies to match up. Like Chris Pratt's Starlord is not Bisexual nor will it be mentioned. Idk as a comics/books fan I quit thinking they were one in the same a long time ago.
Just real quick want to pop in and say that bisexual is an umbrella label for lot of people who are attracted to more than one gender and technically pansexual falls under that and his sexuality isn't exactly specifically stated just that he's attracted to both men and women
Just a note that Kate Herron has indicated that she is bi (though the statement I saw came out after your video, so this isn't a criticism; not sure if she's said anything publicly previously). She said on Twitter that bisexuality "is a part of who [Loki] is and who I am too."
Loki is an amazing character in the MCU. -Loki is queer. -Loki is highly intelligent. -Loki exhibits both heroism and villainy. -Loki is an arrogant insecure being that craves love and validation. -Loki is playful. -Loki is funny, charming, and charismatic. -Loki enjoys life. -Loki is strong. -Loki is weak. -Loki is prideful. -Loki is vain. -Loki is entitled. -Loki is a son. -Loki is a brother. -Loki is a prince. -Loki is a king. -Loki is a god. -Loki is a survivor. -Loki is a product of his environment and upbringing. -Loki thinks of his self as above humans, and is possibly one of the most human characters of all. None of this can be stripped away by anyone. No one can take away who you are, unless you let them. Loki will never let anyone take away or tell him who or what he is. I think maybe you give to much power to the notion that Loki was stripped of his identity, and the queerness within that identity. I won’t get into what it looks like to be queer vs. what is looks like to be straight. I also won’t debate whether Loki was more queer coded as a villain than at any other time when he appeared on screen. Those observations and opinions are in the eye of the beholder. I would point out that when Loki was in Earth domination villain mode. That it makes sense he would be flamboyant in his outward appearance. He was trying to conquer an entire planet. I have never seen him any more or less flamboyant in his appearance than Thor. “Doth Mother know you wear-ith her drapes.” Said Iron Man to Thor upon their first meeting. The manner in which Loki speaks and carries his self is due to where and how he was raised. He is Asgardian royalty. Loki wass not stripped of his queerness anymore than he was stripped of any other part of his identity. Even without his magic or daggers he still managed to run free thru the police station if you will. He was able to out smart and overpower the “cop” that arrested him. Nothing that has happened to Loki has been to somehow make him less queer. It has been to make him see the better part of himself. The compassion, love, and trust,that he is capable of giving and receiving. Given the nature of his character, I do not believe he would ever confirm a gender identity. Not because no one would allow it, but because this is not how his mind works. Loki does not think in such 2 dimensional ways. Loki is perhaps above humanity in this thinking. He does not share our limited perception of what makes us who we are. Loki is a god, just ask him, he will be more than happy to tell you.
I just think they straight up dont know and are confused themselves. They just seem like they were told to see loki as fluid and said ok with no actual knowledge.
They are still at fault. They are a HUGE company with so many people working on these marvel movies. Is it that difficult for them to have queer people be involved so this doesn’t happen? Seriously, how hard is it to do minimal research to make sure the information is correct? It’s not hard to get it right, it just requires caring a little and let the community they are trying to represent have a say in it. I believe they are choosing to poorly represent these things because they honestly have no excuse at this point.
It’s clear that they didn’t actually include genderfluidity in the show at all. They aren’t even leaving it ambiguous, they are actually trying to say loki is always male and sylvie is unique because she’s female. Marvel doesn’t deserve the credit that they got for “representation” when all they did was put a word on a file at the end credits.
i love that the beckwith test specifically fights the villain/bury your gays tropes that were born specifically to dodge the censorship that created them. we've come so far.
I absolutely love the show Shadowhunters because of how diverse the cast is. We've got lots of PoC and LGBT+ members in main roles and side roles, and it was just such a breath of fresh air. I'm glad that people are demanding more because we shouldn't have to settle for throw-away background characters as our representation. We deserve better. Bigots may say we're "snowflakes" for wanting representation but they're the ones that can't handle seeing queer people on-screen.
PLUS the way they made him technically fall in love with Sylvie, which is like treating her as a totally separate character from loki which she isn't, is just screwed.
@@luvmypolly well, guess you have a point but marvel is know for having no representation. The thing here is that Marvel finally ahd a chance to represent more and chose not to because they chose self fucking incest over a homosexual relationship.... Like??
@@luvmypolly im REALLY hoping its them being confused because they clearly have had issues with emotional attachments throughout both their lives, and so conflate certain types of attractions in weird ways
I was so excited when I head we were gonna be getting a Lady Loki, because I thought they were gonna let Loki be shown as gender fluid, and I was really disappointed when I saw the actual episode.
I do like the show (in a sorta depressing, suspend my expectations kinda way) but it's amazing how on the nose you are and mirroring my basic impressions at this point -_- I'm so fkin tired lmao. This video hits every point right on the head so clearly Thank You for explaining everything so thoroughly 🐳🦑🐇🦑🐳 Edit: hope u are also being kind to yourself this pride month!!
just watched this after finishing the entire series,,,, disappointed but not surprised. not to mention, the way they portrayed his bisexuality. yes! confirmation at long last! that's so great. ends up as self-cest? really disney? i didn't really care for ships whatsoever since i was simply watching the show for loki shenanigans and nothing more. so the fact that his bisexuality was reduced to that? idk. didn't sit right with me. maybe they'll explore his genderfluidity in the second season but at this point i'm not sure.
the ONLY representation that I've seen that is at least decent is in the owl house, but disney so far has treated that horribly (ie. putting the two women in a compilation and calling it a friendship, releasing season 2 spoilers in a promo). on the bright side, they just won the peabody award!!
I'm so happy to see you making a video about this. I love Loki and he is the reason I figured out that I am genderfluid, however I'm extremely frustrated with the show but also not surprised. I've had so many people say "but if it's in the show/Loki says/does it then how can it be fluidphohic/transphobic?" as if Loki is a real person. He's a fictional character written by a team of cis writers working for Disney, of course it's possible for it to be offensive. From the TVA assuming the gender of the other Loki they're chasing and both them and Loki calling them 'he', to expecting a word on a file that's on screen for a second in one Instagram promo be 'representation', to fans always using the term 'lady Loki' when Loki has shapeshifted into a different body as if genitalia or pronouns equal gender identity when they don't. Tom Hiddleston's Loki at any time could be identifying as a woman and still be using he/him pronouns (which in the comics it's canon Loki is okay with any and all pronouns) and still be in his AMAB body. Another comment mention how stupid it is to list his sex as 'fluid' and not his gender but list his hair and eye colours, we all know it should have said gender and not sex. They're different things. Loki is the only way that a lot of cis people learn about genderfluidity and it's going to cause a lot of people to misunderstand and assume wrong things, it already is. The expectation that when a genderfluid person looks more female ah now they must be female, because that's what Loki does, makes me so angry. Just because a genderfluid isn't wearing a binder one day doesn't mean they're identifying as female. I feel like passive aggressively just referring to Tom's Loki with she/her pronouns despite him not being shapeshifted into a different form and see how many people get angry with me, despite it being canon in the comics he's fine with any pronouns because he literally said it (Loki 2019 Issue #4).
Just a lil thing that i want to add: ignoring the fact that the information listed in the file is... slightly misleading, most people watching the show wouldn't even have noticed it. The shot is so small and blurry and the focus isn't really on the file - i didn't notice it watching the show, only when i've seen screenshots. This representation is not enough because it's easy to not notice and it's easy to ignore :/
I'm confused. I get why some people in the comments are upset because they falsely believe the show is trying to conflate sex with gender, you on the other hand seem to be upset that most people, the general audience, would never have noticed it their first or second time watching it if scrutinizing every scene for clues or t make theories wasn't such a prevelent thing nowadays.
@@DarkPulsaterLiteGear Yes - I know that may seem counterintuitive, but hear me out. Although I am fully aware that sex and gender are not the same thing, other people may not be as progressive in their thoughts and so they belive sex and gender are inexplicably linked. Using this assumption, fluid sex = fluid gender. That isn't my main point though, my main point is that if they (the makers) are going to make it canon that Loki is gender fluid (hence me saying 'ignore the fact that is says sex not gender'), they need it to be more obvious. Many people watching, e.g my parents and younger brother, aren't completely obsessed with the series so they won't be spending time analysing the show and wouldn't have noticed that tiny detail, ergo in their eyes there was not gemderfluid representation - representation is obsolete if it isn't visible to everyone who consumes that piece of media. I haven't done a good job of explaining this, I'm sorry if I haven't helped you understand my view, but my general opinion is that while yes the information on the file was misleading, perhaps incorrect, and even offensive, there's no point in having it there at all if people aren't forced to acknowledge it.
@@Olly__Zines-By-Blade But what it means is that Loki can change his biological ses on a level only he or a greater power such as the infinity stones could undo. As a matter of fact my theory for what Sylvie's nexus event was is that she became so enthralled with the Valkyries that she changed into a a female presenting form unconsciously and didn't even notice the difference due to being a shape shifter and all. Which, if true, my theory would make Sylvie a trans coded character and would give this scene ua-cam.com/video/Zc5uUMXP3Wk/v-deo.html all the more impactful.
I was hoping Loki could give me more of an insight about Gender fluidity, and it just made me more confused. I understood that sex doesn't equal gender not too long ago. But comments I've been reading and seeing Sylvie as a separate character just confused me that sex fluidity made sense because I though "ok, he's a shapeshifter." But then gender fluidity would also make sense like it can go hand n hand. If Loki changes his/their sex is he changing his gender every time aswell. I needa read the comics
This video is great! I just have one little problem with the Khaki bit towards the end. I think the whole TVA “stripping him of his identity” thing was 100% intentionally meant to be a *bad* thing… and it will be used as a plot device, that sets up Lokis eventual character arc for the series where he expresses his queerness and ditches the TVA. To me thats the clear message I’m getting… but it looks like to you, you’re interpreting the message as: Marvels trying to tell us that Loki not being queer is a good thing. Again this video was great and opened my eyes to a lot of things (I’m sorry if this came off as rude).
Yeah! I have seen the series and I love his gender fluidity. (There’s no other pronouns stated) I’m also in the middle of the book and I really like this part: “Many people meeting Aziraphale for the first time, formed three impressions: that he was English, that he was intelligent, and that he was gayer than a tree full of monkeys on nitrous oxide” it then goes on to say he non-binary “Two of these were wrong; Heaven is not in England, whatever certain poets may have thought, and angels are sexless unless they really make an effort…” Earlier in the story he was also called the F-slur
Im sorry, and this is my only issue with the video, but its pretty clear that the TVA in Loki are pretty clearly coded to be the bad guys, even just looking at episode 1 & 2
Btw I completely agree- but for him being can only queer, doesn’t he say in the third episode that he likes both boys and girls? He says that pretty explicitly but this video might’ve come out before that.
@@xxx-ie9ic That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying when people talk about representation they always want characters doing the rep to be good guys, but that is unrealistic. There are movies and shows with good rep that have the LGBTQA+ rep as one of the protagonists, but if you want to normalize it you have to show that LGBTQA+ people are like everyone else they can be good, bad, or just indifferent the same as anybody.
@@DarkPulsaterLiteGear Thank you for explaining, that makes a lot more sense. At the same time, I don't think we're seeing a balance here with protagonist rep either. I much prefer the representation in She-Ra, where it is distributed everywhere, and each character is realistically and relatably portrayed. For example, characters set up to be the bad guys aren't necessarily bad *people.* It's just like... rep isn't gonna be good no matter what if you're not putting a lot of thought and care into your characters in the first place. I think it really shows when creators truly care about their characters. And I agree with you there. People are just people and should be shown as people. Believable, relatable. Representation should be portrayed thoughtfully. It's why I love the representation in the Owl House so much, because at least in season 1, it felt like such a natural part of the characters, I barely even noticed it because it didn't feel forced. It was just the characters being themselves. Don't know if that makes any sense. XD
22:35 Another Disney title that had queer representation was the show 'Andi Mack'. Cyrus came out 3 times and one of those times says explicitly "I'm gay."
1. "They put Loki in khakis" Which is why I'm so hyped for the President Loki episode because look at that bomb ass suit! 2. Amity Blight(The Owl House) is a step in the right direction 3. Sylvie(Lady Loki) changing her name felt like a subtle trans analogy, but that may have just been me
Honestly I think you may have jumped the gun on this one... I could be wrong but everything about what they're setting up here tells me that the TVA are going to be the ultimate bad guys of the show. I mean they literally murder people for being late to work + it seems pretty obvious to me that they're setting up the timekeepers to be big bads. Loki's ep. 2 female variant doesn't come off as a villain to me, so much as a clever person with more knowledge than the audience and protagonist... she could be armed with the knowledge that the TVA is super bad and taking whatever measures are necessary to stop it... Possibly although definitely not certainly the same Loki from the future now with more knowledge of the timekeepers and a plan to destroy them, which could be an excellent way to portray a change in Loki's understanding of his gender identity. She clearly bests him and looks down on him for playing along with the time cops... Maybe she's the "better Loki" because she's expressing herself and *not* confirming to what the time cops want her to be. Maybe Loki following along with them is a cowardly act. Don't get me wrong, I don't think they're setting up the individual time cops (like Agent Mobius) as bad guys... But they've made it pretty clear that they know they're enforcing these rules for rules' sake just because that is their purpose/what they were created to do. They're pretty ripe for "look, this is what your timekeepers actually are, join me and fight against them" appeals. Idk, I could be wrong about all of this. But I think the things that you point out that the show is doing "wrong" so far *could* be intentional commentary on queerness, conformity, even senseless police violence... I mean, come on, if "yeah there's no good reason we enforce this timeline in particular, we just do it because the multiverse is a dictatorship now, authority for authority's sake amiright? yeah we murder people who don't conform, yeah we don't really care about tragedies and human suffering lol" somehow manages to portray that system as a *good* thing, I'd be amazed. I know it's ostensibly to prevent a second multiversal war but the way that information is presented is practically a giant megaphone screaming "this is in-universe propaganda and may not be trustworthy!" In the very least I couldn't say right now that I expect the queer representation in Loki to be good or bad based on the show so far. Not necessarily expecting it to be amazing queer rep but I think it's too soon to judge it now. In the very least you're probably right that Loki is almost certainly not going to say "I would like to use x pronouns now please." But maaaybe we'll see Lady Loki tell him to express himself as he pleases, not as people like the TVA tell him to, and maybe we'll see him respond to that by changing his gender expression. Idk, that is admittedly optimistic of me. But I'm going to let the show fail before I give up on it, anyway.
WAIT! Ok so they definitely haven't done much for Lokis gender identity on the show (I don't think) BUT they do mention how loki has canonicaly gone out with both men and women. When he and Lady Loki are talking about love he mentions that he's "had a little bit of both" when it comes to going out with princes and princesses. This is in episode 3 I think?
It's sylvie her name, she says she dosen't like to be called loki which I think alludes to the fact that she identifies as woman but born asign as male or something like that, because think about it, the timelines are suposed to branch out from the same timeline if I understood it corectly, so she probrably started the sames as the mcu loki, but since loki is gender fluid, her gender indentity is female
@@shockanova I don't think it's exactly like that. I saw another comment that I thought was really good. it talked about how Loki is a narcissist and can only really love himself so it sorta shows that in a way
I don’t know I think it’s to earlier to judge the show, there is literally only three episodes so far so we don’t really know what they’re going to do. I mean I’m not excepting anything more than some “hint hint” “nudge nudge” sadly but we have to wait to see.
Haven't finished watching this video yet but I've been wondering how you're able to enjoy Marvel movies and characters with all the just... homophobia/transphobia and military/cop propaganda--not to mention Disney's grip on the MCU. Thanks for being critical of the thing you enjoy, because to me that really shows you care how these characters and stories are portrayed and want to ask more of the writers/actors/etc. I'm too hateful toward Disney and bored with superheroes to want to engage with Marvel, but it's people like you who will hopefully push them to be more inclusive (not just dancing around nonbinary gender identity to try not to lose fans!) EDIT: THEY MADE LOKI A COP???
About the cop thing: Well kinda. So In Endgame the Avengers traveled back to the events of The first Avengers films and something goes wrong, that Loki ultimately gets the tesseract and escapes. Creating a new timeline, he gets arrested by what basically is the time police. And because he created a new timeline and isn't the "main" Loki they were going to erase him but one of the people working there plead to change Loki and make him useful. So He's kinda a cop but at the time not really since he doesn't want to work for them
Great overview of Loki and Disney's inability to properly represent queer people. At least in history, Norse gods have radical gender representations. If only we could slip that bit of context into Disney's representation of them in a more substantive light.
I have a feeling that we won't get proper representation in major franchises until it's profitable enough for companies to do so. They'll do anything for profit.
i also dont like how theyd be sooner to kinda make a morally gray villian genderfluid without even exploring it but if you suggest that a morally perfect hero like spider-man is bisexual your gone
I feel like the way Rick Riordan chose to deal with Loki and their children’s shapeshifting and their gender in his Magnus Chase series is the closest to good representation, although not perfect. In the books there’s two children of Loki, both can shapeshift so both their sexes would technically be fluid, but they only shapeshift into animals. When it comes to gender, Sam is a woman and Alex is gender fluid, uses she/him pronouns and although it’s not explicitly explained on what degree, it is possible to assume that Alex does shapeshift when going from one gender to the other since the main character can tell, other characters can’t but it’s probably bc he pays more attention to her bc he likes her (like it’s not his outer appearance that changes since he has kind of an androgynous look but something does change bc Magnus wouldn’t be able to tell otherwise). When it comes to Loki, they are Sam’s father but Alex’s mother and appear as both with a clear physical difference. Also, quick question, what pronouns should I use when referring to gender fluid ppl that don’t use they/them? Should I just sometimes use she/her and in other time he/him? I can’t find the answer online so that’s why I’m asking here 😪
I kinda want a low key way to say I’m nonbinary to people.. Can we make saying “I’m Low-key Loki” a little code thing xD That interviewer doesn’t understand that sexuality is not sex.. sexually is who you want to bang… whaaat? I’m gonna go into something a little weird ok.. I have a dissociative disorder with alters. Within the brain there are nearly 46/40/4 female, male, and nonbinary. One of the nonbinary has all parts and isn’t humanoid. He likes He him pronouns, but doesn’t see the point in actually being a sex/gender as he can never have a sexual partner, or experience attraction, and parts mean nothing to him, his sex parts are useless. They just exist, but they don’t exist. They are everything and nothing.. so what’s the point? My identity as fluidflux comes from the fact that my fellow alters come and go, and bring with them expressions, traits and feelings attached to their gender. That’s not how everyone who’s NB reaches the self understanding of being nonbinary. There are other things.. That’s just us
The Loki of Norse myth absolutely is sexfluid in a literal sense, Loki is attested the Father of Hel, Jormungandr, and Fenrir. Loki is attested as the mother of the 8 legged horse Sleipnir. Problematically this fluidity was likely used by the hyper masculine Norse society to reinforce the idea of Loki as villian of the pantheon. Calling him fluid in the Marvel show is two-fold, a nod to the real norse myth, and a bit of foreshadowing for Sylvie's introduction
Hi im gender fluid. When I heard that Loki was going to be gender fluid himself i was wondering how they'll mess it up... Hopefully the second season for Loki will have him be gender fluid, but I'm not counting on it.
uh episode 3 spoilers 42:56 this is already literally word for word a quote from Sylvie this is a really good video actually. I completely agree (at least to the point where any criticisms are nitpicks), and I *hate* that as a gender⍰⍰⍰ bisexual person I've been primed to get so excited about things like "sex: fluid" and "a bit of both," or even just the possible interpretations of Loki not batting an eye at his alternate reality self being visibly a woman. To be entirely fair, I am slightly more optimistic after the 3rd episode, both for the fact that there was any kind of undeniable queer representation (bonus that you don't need to pause to see it) and that Sylvie seems less and less like the villain and also more trans coded. Note the slightly though, I'm not expecting much, but probably more than Brennen was when ey made this video. idk. At least at this point I'm worrying more about a lack of good representation than I am about Sylvie turning out to be a lying cis man, I see that option as quite a bit less likely now. Also not sure how I'm feeling about Sylvie calling her name an alias? I'm not sure if it's slightly transphobic, or a wink and nudge (given that she was pretty insistent about being called by her name), or if I'm kinda 👀 about it, given that the "alias" thing combined with basically everything Loki says about it implies that Loki considers his own name to be gender neutral. Optimistic about the "all the time cops are abused civilians and the TVA is almost definitely evil" thing because it might sort of let them have their cake and eat it too, it lets them avoid the more controversial implication that all the t̶i̶m̶e̶ cops are corrupt, but still allows them to make the weirdly oppressive and strict entities enforcing the time laws be explicitly evil. Like, they like having three people all the way at the top to blame for all the problems on their rather than having it be a complicated issue, and I like having the fantasy time cops be the bad guys. win-win. Also on a note that makes me sound less smart, I'm really excited about the idea of the MCU possibly finally finally opening up to the multiverse, and they've been kinda hinting at that for a while now
My thoughts is Loki is someone whose sex is fluid - as in Loki's physical sex is fluid, 'he' can be male, female etc. (Which as a genderfluid person is my dream, if only I could switch back and forth based on my identity at the moment.) I believe in the comics and the Norse Myth is more of that Gender and physical Sex is just another thing that Loki bends to 'his' needs at the time and moment he is in. But MCU - grrrr - is so worries about international markets that they are trying to tiptoe the line and they have no real understanding of it. so they just f it all up.
On Disney+ Big Shot has a semi-important wlw couple in the last couple of episodes and The Owl House (my beloved) has a bi main character with a lesbian love interest, but I agree with all of your points and I hope that Disney does better. Exploring Loki's gender identity more could be so beneficial if they just get people who know what they are doing.
ca. 32:30 - I'd add an exception to #2 of the Beckwith test: If the queer character is always unhappy, it must clearly be the fault of homophobia/transphobia, and serve as an indictment of bigotry. The great James Baldwin wrote a magnificent view of the 1959 filmed version of Porgy and Bess in which he wrote that he liked the opera, thought the filmic adaptation was a disaster, and that what he found missing in the opera is what the hardships of the Black community say about the White society that created them. I do like how you added "or never achieve anything" to #2, though! The biopic Milk comes to mind as a story that ends in a senseless death, because it did in real life (and it would be a disgrace to sanitize Harvey Milk's story), but only after the protagonist had enormous achievements.
I am SO SICK of people claiming that Luca is Q*eer Bating. It was never referenced in the release, it was never hinted at, it was honestly the fans who have Q*eer bated themselves. Even the director is cool with people seeing it as LGBTQ+ and the same as Stephen King's stance on Reddie. That they didn't originally intend such but Art is subjective. Like I see Luca more so as hiding my Autism, not as them being gay, but once again everyone is allowed a head canon we need to be respectful of others HC too. I mean I have friends who HC Richie Tozier as NB and Eddie Kaspbrak as Trans and while in canon they are cisgender men they are allowed to have a damn head canon. I really want representation too, but literally getting pissed that Luca and Alberto weren't actually canonized as gay, is really so backwards. If they make a sequel and Luca is gay, yes that's wonderful! But if they make a sequel and he ends up with Gulia that's fine too and guess what, your ship and your head canon isn't destroyed by that. Also doesn't that just make all shapeshifters like Pennywise a fluid sex?
you make a fair point about luca, but I'm not sure you can excuse Raya and Namari not being cannon in the same way. btw not implying that you have the same opinion about raya and the last dragon, just pointing out another disney+ children's movie where two characters could have been seen as queer, which was especially true for raya and namari, even more so than luca.
@@kirstenjackson2172 True! And Kelly Marie Tran actually said that Raya was Gay and in love with Namari I think on Twitter. I honestly can't debate that one as not Q*eer bating that is true but even the Voice actors for Luca haven't said "Luca is Gay." Or "Alberto is Gay." You do have an excellent point with Raya being Q*eerbaited and also canon. Also if one does ship Luca/Alberto the director is fine with it its just not canon to the movie and that's fine I just wish everyone would respect Head Canons as what they are, how you personally see that work of art.
@@luvmypolly yep, they sure did and also blaming Disney for baiting them is BS, its been Buzzfeed, Polygon, and even the New York Times baiting by doing titles of articles like "Callamari by your name" hence making people look at it as animated CMBYN and then setting themselves up for disappointment. I personally get that Brennan is pointing out real cases of them baiting the community but Luca is NOT one of them.
All I have to add to this really great convo is that Kate Herron is actually bisexual, therefore is queer, not that a cis bisexual person can necessarily represent a gender queer person correctly, but I thought I'd just put that out there Edit: just checked your Twitter and saw that you RT'ed Kate's tweet about being bi, but imma leave this comment up for others
For any one looking for good genderfluid representation, Alex Fierro is the trans, genderfluid child of Loki in the Magnus Chase trilogy of books by Rick Riordan, the books actually portrayed her identity in an open and respectful way, it's not about shape shifting, she can't change into other people, so her sex is always the same, it's about the way she feels and presents herself/himself, she is proud of who she is, and has no problem letting people now when her pronouns are he/him or she/her, also she is one of the main characters in the last two books and the love interest for the protagonist, so yeah, we need a Magnus Chase movie.
I wanted to put my two cents in as a genderfluid person who grew up with the MCU. When I watched the first episode of Loki with my family, I couldn't put my finger on why I didn't like it. It was definitely Loki, they went into his insecurities, but it felt like it wasn't Loki, if you can understand? I loved Loki since the first time I watched Avengers, starting a common pattern in my life of falling for and seeing myself in queercoded villains. I watched the first episode of Loki and watched as the reasons I loved Loki, his unapologetic nature to be himself and to strive for what he wants and needs be twisted. He wasn't queercoded anymore. He wasn't a genderfluid pansexual god anymore, he was solidified into a corner. And that corner was, more or less, a cis man. Everything I saw in the character that I related to in all moments was filed down to one moment where he said that he doesn't like hurting people but he can't stop because it makes him feel stronger since he feels so weak. That was it. I couldn't see myself in anything else. I felt that he was the one person that I felt safe with, although he was fictional. He was me and I was him, as far as I was concerned. And that feels really selfish to say that they took this character from me but it still hurts because I get so little. This was really all over the place and I can't express my feelings, I completely agree with Brennan in this video, but I am in a lot of pain since very suddenly I lost something that has been safe for me my whole life.
When Sylvie was introduced, I figured it'd be a good way to speak about Loki being genderfluid in more than a paper, but in the later episodes, it's explained that Loki/Sylvie being a girl was "the problem" that the timekeepers wanted to kill her for. They were basically saying that Loki being anything but a man is "wrong", really killing the hope that they'd show his genderfluidity well, if you ask me
I will do a follow up video after the whole series airs to see how right or wrong I was, and just to give my overall takes on the series in general. Thank you all for enjoying my opinions on this! If you're interested in my real time thoughts and feelings after each episode follow me on twitter! Ya'll are the best :)
Very curious to see how the series pans out, and what your take on it will be. Personally I think (really I hope) that a lot of the negatives in the representation of Loki’s gender identity you’ve pointed out are intentional misdirects. For example, while Lady Loki (who does take on a different name in Ep. 3, but I won’t go further here to avoid spoilers) is initially portrayed as the villain, she’s labeled as such by the TVA, an organization that even in the pilot is depicted as a group that shouldn’t be trusted. Hiddloki’s “khaki-fication” could be seen as them attempting to repress who he really is, only for the character to reclaim his identity as the end of the series.
But most importantly, going into wild theory territory, I think Lady Loki is going to die by the end of the series and Hiddloki will begin taking her appearance (albeit sporadically) as a way to honor her and express his gender fluidity. I can’t say if that would be good representation, but I have suspicions that’s where the creators are going by introducing that character
I'm so glad you're going to make another video especially with them confirming Loki as bi now in the third episode. I was not expecting them to do it and that gives me a *tiny bit* of hope they may not mess up his gender identity. And even if they cis-wash him, it seems like they're coding Sylvie as a trans woman wich could be interesting too if done right
@@manuba_ Yes!!! Lets hope Kate Herron directs this series well enough for that to happen since she somehow managed to confirm his bisexuality so naturally and not forced. There has been speculation on that last part because of Sylvie being so insistent on not being called Loki.
@The V word trans = not cis '-' so if Loki's enby Loki's trans
I can't wait to see this video
"Unnamed Monster Cop said 'girlfriend', so basically we've solved homophobia and you should give us your money." - Disney
...but Unnamed Monster Cop will unfortunately have to be cut for the Russian, Chinese, and Middle Eastern releases of the film. You understand.
T ZB “Obviously, you should still give us your money despite that.”
- Disney, probably
Let’s not forget the many implied lgbt characters and all those articles online about “Disney’s first _____ character in new movie” despite not being confirmed (often hinted at through various ways but also stereotypes), probably not having many or any lines, and already having many many articles like that about different Disney movies.
@@dinosaysrawr well if you’re in those countries and lgbt you’re probably dead or in a camp moving trees for when Disney wants to film Mulan 3
I read that in Ryan George's voice.
Not to mention that they’re trying to trademark the Norse gods, which many people still worship
@@woah05 which part are you saying no to?
@@woah05 uh... yes? I worship Loki... so many people do
They're trying to copyright Loki, which is even worse than a trademark. Too bad no one told them they can't issue a copyright for something in the public domain. The concept of Loki has existed for at LEAST a thousand years.
@@arazimargas9045 eyyyy fellow Norse pagan
@@woah05 Yes. People still warship the Norse Gods, google heathenry ;)
with how much kevin feige has mentioned batteling Disney about queer (and formerly POC) representation as well as alex hersh’s recent statements (and a few others like Star vs, and Owl House) if seems like you really need to stick your neck out for even background queer rep at Disney and there will be consequences and compromise/concessions in negotiations
Now that you mention The Owl House, which is currently a very popular show, seems kinda weird to me that they would limit it to three seasons (the third one being only a three special hour-long episodes) precisely being their first show with a female queer POC protagonist that has a same sex romantic interest, when even the creator has expressed wanting more episodes.
…Anyway, Disney I guess.
This reminds me of what Mads Mikkelsen said once in a Vulture interview: ”I think there is a certain budget limit where it’s not the director’s film anymore. Somebody else is the boss. You’re trying to be creative while you’re wearing handcuffs, and it’s difficult.”
why is disney trying to copyright everything... norse gods are extremely important to nordic populations + it reminds me of when the finebros wanted to trademark the word REACT
And when they tried to trade mark the day of the dead
The following is copy-paste from another reply I made, since people don't understand copyright:
They're not "trying" to copyright anything, because we live in a world where the French convinced everyone to get rid of copyright formalities (the U.S. only did this around 50 years ago). Marvel's rendition of Loki can most likely be copyrighted if it differs enough from the Norse deity. Of course, any aspects from the original myths can be used freely, and the Marvel character would probably have a weak-ish copyright.
The only thing Disney is trying to do is claim that their rendition of the character is copyrightable.
Edit: Of course, I'm all for copyright reform, such as a 14 year copyright with a 14 year extension, combined with everyone keeping the natural right to copy noncommercially.
Yeah this is how Disney rolls with LGBT "representation". Hey, let's have a director cameo mention his boyfriend for like 10 seconds and we never see him again. 2 nameless women kiss in the background. Erm, this character is canonically bi but god forbid we actually show it! JUST SLAP GENDER FLUID ON A PIECE OF PAPER! WOW, AMAZING REPRESENTATION!!!
tbh i don’t even expect good representation at this point
edit: after watching the video further im actually quite angry because i realised this isn’t just poor representation but dangerous representation
Oh and make sure that the overseas release has no gay scenes.
Where would you have put Loki dating someone or question his gender? There wasn't much time for that
@@trixicenby999 spoiler, they did
@@freebeerishere Are you talking about the latest episode of Loki?
Disney has had like five "first queer characters" at this point and they're all so lackluster that it's unbelievable
Three words...
The Owl House
I have spoken!
@@DarkPulsaterLiteGear This is true, but the creator fought tooth and nail with Disney to keep the show and her characters the way she wanted. That is to say, to keep that representation in. Disney doesn't deserve credit for that representation in any way shape or form. (Not that you said that, but I'm saying it. XD)
That being said, the Owl House is amazing.
Disney won’t even acknowledge TOH’s representation. It sucks, because it’s some good stuff!
@@xxx-ie9ic to be fair, Disney itself has not created anything and deserves no credit. They just own the rights. All the real work is done by the film crew and actors, and the special effect artists. Effect artists and stuntmen deserve more recognition.
Also this applies to games publishers, too
@@Gloomdrake Oh yeah, a total oversight on my part- you're so right.
I feel like all of this would've been handled better if Disney wasn't in charge. I read about Tessa Thompson and Taika Waititi filming a scene in Thor: Ragnarok showing Valkyrie's bisexuality, only for it to get cut (likely because of Disney's meddling.) I believe there was a similar situation with a queer romance in Black Panther as well, so it doesn't surprise me. Unfortunately, I doubt Disney is going to change their ways anytime soon.
According to what I heard the Thor Ragnarok scene was cut for not being essential to the plot and Taika tried really hard to keep it in.
If I worked for Disney I would not let them tell me what to do or try meddling with my work
for me personally though, I actually loved that Valkyrie got no romantic scenes. It's like - every single time there's a female main character, there has to be a plot about who they hook up with. (which you don't always see with male characters) So I found it refreshing that Valkyrie was nobody's love interest and just got to be bad ass, and treated equally, platonically.
Also, that they made her a drunk also added depth to her character. She's one of my favorite characters.
@@b1zarr3vel Then you wouldn't work for Disney for very long would you?
@@dorianr4770 Exactly and Takia/Russo's also had Thor try to make out with her at the end of endgame ending awkwardly in a I don't like you like that kind of way from Valkyrie. I like the way ragnorak came out and in love and Thunder I fully expect and want her to have a queen by herside. She seems down as an actress and it can be edited out for the Chinese censors but would still be awesome to see for those of us in European and American markets.
i personally find it really frustrating that "sex: fluid" being listed on a file is likely going to be the closest the show will get to a discussion of loki's gender. it would be genuinely interesting to see the show fully tackle how a character whose sex is fluid due to shapeshifting might view gender, but i find the possibility of that being explored incredibly unlikely.
this is kind of an issue i have with a lot of media in general. so many fictional stories that i enjoy tackle themes that would be really interesting if shown through a trans lens, but very few of them actually do so.
Completely agree... They delve into things so shallowly. They could hire me for one day and I'd be able to whack together something better than what they put out and I'm not even a writer I'm just a genderfluid person :/
The latest episode touched up on Loki's identity. They are the same person, but a variant that goes with the name Sylvie instead of Loki and appears female. Identifying as female
@@trixicenby999 just watched the latest episode, and i don't personally think sylvie's existence counts as exploring loki's genderfluidity - she's basically treated as a separate character, although her changing her name to sylvie and being uncomfortable with the name loki might possibly mean she's supposed to be trans? idk, we'll have to see what happens in later episodes with that. as for loki's sexuality, that is touched on in the most recent episode, but only very briefly in one line.
@@needsanewbrain Yeah I think we have to wait and se. Their relationship hasn't developed more and I honestly think There's more to come and I think Tom even mentioned Loki being genderfluid. About Loki's sexuality I like it and Happy that they are taking steps forward, I'm glad that they atleast confirmed that he's not straight.
Every time Brennen says Ey/Em at the beginning of an ep I automatically go “eyyyyyy” outloud. It feels like a tick at this point. Welp this has loki spoilers so i’ll be back later.
Lol same! I can't help it I'm canadian 😅😂
Same. I also don’t want spoilers
Reading this comment just reminded me of that brief time in music history when every hit pop song had an EYYYY in it.
An issue I have with Loki's file, besides the aforementioned points that sex =/= gender or sexuality, is why sex is listed as fluid when height and eye color aren't. The whole reasoning behind putting sex as fluid is his ability to shapeshift. So why are eye color and height not also listed as fluid?
I haven't watched the show yet so maybe it's explained there. I don't know. It just doesn't make sense to me why the characteristics listed in the file about Loki's physical form aren't listed consistently.
On another note, it'd be nice if the show explores Loki's relation with gender in a positive or at least neutral way but I'm not counting on it. Also that him conforming to the system is just a temporary thing until he regains his freedom or somehow breaks out.
Oof you're right....I suppose you could say that hair and eye are listed that way bc it's his ~most common form~ but...yeah it doesn't really hold up. Dang :/
Good point(?)
Good point, if they were going to say his sec can change at will, then his other identifying features should have been listed as such.
Like his typical appearance and then list fluid/variable.
But I do think “fluid” should have been used under gender not sex
Yeah I feel like it’s difficult to give real world labels to someone who shapeshifts
I haven't watched the show yet, but at least from my little knowledge of the comics whenever he was a woman he kept most of his distinct features, same color hair and eyes
so maybe that's why? or they're just being dumb as always
kinda random but remember when Disney tried to copywrite "Day of the Dead" for their merch but they couldn't because it was y'know, AN ACTUAL HOLIDAY!?!
What!? They actually did that?
Mexicans are typing.....
*Mexico has entered the chat*
it's kind of the same with the norse gods now, like, an actual religion
"Yeah loki is bi, give us views" - Disney
"But are u gonna show him being bi?" - anyone with 10+ IQ
"Ofc not we just want your money" - Disney
don't even get started on the self-cest plotline they're implying between Sylvie and Loki, it's the Onceler fandom all over again (and don't say it's ok cause they're different people, they are both variations of Loki (Sylvie is called a *Loki* Variant for most episodes)
They made a person fall inlove with themself and still found a way to make it straight lmAo
@@Axxidous I agree with everything said! But the LGBT+ people would be happy to see some representation, so they'd think "Hm, why not watch this show with people I like?" and then go watch Loki. Which is obviously bad, but that's what Marvel wants. I really feel like they should just include him being bi in the story, and not just put that randomly on the show.
Isn't Loki just existing "showing him being bi"?
@@Axxidous yes!! I completely agree what you're saying. But they HAD such great opportunities to really represent him being bi, and they didn't do it. They instead forced a self incest relationship down our throats.
24:54 exactly. my dad isn’t homophobic but he’s also not not homophobic. like he’s an old dude, what do i expect. anyway, we watched all of black sails together which just made me so happy. the fact we were able to watch a show with SEVERAL queer characters together was just amazing. not even background characters, THE MAIN CHARACTERS. i can tell it definitely made him view queer people as more than just gay. they can be badass complex pirates too.
The same happen with my dad, we watched Bohemian Rhapsody and watching Mercurie's journey he sympathized a lot with him, he even remembered how long ago, when he was young his friends and him stopped hearing his music and dancing to it because they found out he was "gay", my parents country is also pretty homophobic, he regretted that since the music was and still is amazing.
My house might not have raised me as tolerant and supporting of other's people sexualities or gender, but at least they didn't raise me homophobic.
Thank you for reminding me about this show!! It was on my 'to watch' list but I lost the name, I know what I'm doing tomorrow xD
@@LoreCatan hahah no problem!! hope you enjoy it
My parents aren’t for démonstration of queer characters in films, they don’t want us to show how queer we are, and think famous people Being queer is just commercial or
“his sexuality is fluid” MY GODDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
They don’t even try and it hurts oof
I laughed at that stupidity and then cried because these are *famous* stupid people with the privilege of being ignorant.
maybe he doesn't feel the hots for big wild stallions when he's not in mare form
He is a shapeshifter, after all. He can become anything, and love anything, that he wants. Even horses. Especially horses.
@@SwordTune no man, it's not being fluid in sexuality, it is called being pansexual/ omnisexual.
I think it would be cool if you did a follow up of this video once the series is over and talk about how it could've been better written or how you would've written it.
I probably will!
as a genderfluid person, this show has really disappointed me so far. i love loki as a character and i was really looking forward to it, but i couldnt even just be excited because i worried about how badly marvel would mess up lokis identity. the thing with "lady loki" is especially bad, at least as of episode two...... having an alternate universe version of a character who is evil and also effectively a different person present as a different gender is really great genderfluid representation, absolutely! /s
you said some things i hadnt even realized too, like the.. implications of loki being made to conform to be the protagonist.
just. thank you for talking about this
Don't even with the evil thing it showed in the second episode that there have been many Loki Variants with some looking completely different any every way with only their names as a constant
lady loki was never evil. Even before the episodes where it shows she was completely justified she was only evil from the perspective of the TVA, whose fascism and callousness is evident from episode 1.
Please actually watch the show before you say this stuff its shown loki is very common malicious variant they even slide between multiple versions of him and she's revealed to be good as anyone whos watched anything marvel could easily see as the upcoming plot twist
@@willowzgaming7057 I know that Sylvie is good. I was refering to the statement made int the comment, but didn't use the future knowledge i had gained from EP 3 - 4 to counter it. I instead took it from the point of view as if I had never seen Ep 3 - 4. And one of the variants they show is Lance Armstrong Loki, aka a Loki who took Lance's place and won the Tour De France. I really don't see how that's evil, maybe a little unfair since Loki is a demigod Jotun, but nevertheless definitely not outright malicious.
@@DarkPulsaterLiteGear i wasnt talking to you i was talking to the original comment
Y'all should read loki: Agent of Asgard. It's been a while since I read it and I have a bad memory so I don't remember a whole lot about it, but I remember enjoying it. Loki is rather unabashedly gender fluid in there though.
@Lillian Hawkins Happy cry I hope
Disney needs to start hiring lgbt people for stuff like this
the director of the first Loki series is lgbtq+
honestly him openly admitting he is bisexual was fantastic in the latest episode in addition to them seemingly making lady loki into the protagonist (at least, that's what I gathered) like i have a bit higher hopes that maybe it will be actually good
youre right about disney, i think i just reallyyyy really want this to be good for once
sylvie isn't lady loki tho
me: loves Loki and the new series
also me: is very frustrated with how media that claims to be “inclusive” glosses over the queerness of canonically queer characters and fears that the Loki series will follow in its footsteps
Honestly, agreed. I absolutely love the show and the storyline. But after being promised representation and it barely scraping the surface just annoys me
theres also amity from the owl house who explicitly has a crush on luz noceda, the main character of the show, which is really great but the creator(who is bi herself) probably had to fight so hard for it
It's also not even on Disney plus...
@@minoumohapatra4852 first season is, in USA at least
@@Hazyla oh I didn't know! I don't live in the US, so that's probably why lol
Luz was also confirmed bi by the creator so yay
Spoilers for season 2 episode 2:
its not just amity with the crush either
So now I'm officially out and using she/they pronouns. Your videos really taught me a lot about queer culture, fighting for your identity, ect. So thank you, you played a big part in me finding out who I am
Congrats!! ❤️ We’re all so proud of you! How does it feel being out and open about your most authentic self? ☺️
Congratulations! We all love you and I’m so happy you’re officially out
@@MELONeyWATERson Really good, thank you, this comment really made my day ^^
@@luuuuux_ Thank you
THEY WON'T LET HIM BE GENDERFLUID BUT THEY'LL LET HIM FALL IN LOVE WITH ANOTHER VERSION OF HIMSELF???
i really hope its more of a platonic love
@@pumpkin5517 god me too I hope it turns out to be "haha you THOUGHT that was where this was going"
@@vinnyart92 or maybe because he is a narcissist he is actually just in love with himself in the way a narcissist is if yk what i mean. like in Loki's mind he's thinking I'm so perfect or smth
“My son, my daughter, and my child who is both” is so cute.
Loki’s sex being fluid, then the show going out of it’s way to affirm his gender as a man (Episode 5 “have you ever met a female version of us”) has been so damaging to me. It’s the fact that they would rather make him NOT cisgender than not fit the gender binary (aka being sex-fluid but not gender-fluid). Also that Disney is more willing to portray heterosexual self-cest than a homosexual relationship is really slapping me in the face. I went into the show knowing about a female variant and being so hopeful for queer rep, and ended up exposed to clear evidence of homophobic narrative decisions. Like imagine going in expecting acceptance and then finding out, no Disney thinks self-cest is less weird and gross than queerness. Also the way these transphobic decisions created sexism too, just bleh
Loki has been gender fluid since in the Marvel Comics….he deserves better than this . Edit: thank you for educating me so I’m editing my comment :3
Hey i get what you mean but this isn't true when it comes to the myths.
We cannot map any modern labels onto these myths, loki's perceived genderfluidity in the myths only ever comes in the form of insults and it might just be a "conflating sexuality and gender" type of thing since they are only in their fem presenting form when having sex with a man (basically contributing to the idea that queer men are closer to women than other men and that the person bottoming doesn't count as a man) .
The whole mare thing is actually an insult made literal. In medieval norse times it was a big deal to call a man a mare because it implies that he enjoys anal sex and to bottom for someone, which was seen as shameful. For this insult they could be legally allowed to kill you in retaliation.
In the myths (i recall this happening twice in the Lokasenna) the word argi/ergi is used against Loki. I'm not an expert on this but the word basically serves to demonize any "deviant" behaviour so it's probs not far from a slur.
The parts about Loki shapeshifting their sex might just be conflating sexuality with gender like I said before.
Also, again i am not an expert on this. Most of this info I got from someone I follow and that has studied Norse Mythology and the history of the time period in which it was put onto paper. (also that specific person is genderfluid themself so that is another reason why i'm taking their word on this)
All of this to say that IT IS PERFECTLY FINE TO ADAPT LOKI AS GENDERFLUID NOW but it is probs not a good idea to map onto the myths (that were full of bad stereotypes that are still used today) and it's tots not a good idea to ever give them credit for "making loki genderfluid" since they don't seem to view it as a good thing.
And to add i 100% headcanon and think of Loki as genderfluid and i fucking hope it makes those long dead bigots real fucking mad.
When it comes to the comics tho! Yeah Loki is genderfluid and anyone that says otherwise has not read shit about the character. If anyone questions if Marvel Loki rlly is genderfluid just tell them that they have canonly labeled themself as such in The Unbeatable Squirrel Girl vol.2 #27.
@@Carolina57685 Thank you so much for breaking down the history, I edited my comment to avoid misinformation:3
@@myasmith1820 no problem!
Since before actually. The actual gods gender and sex switches
@@Carolina57685 it should be noted that the concepts of ergi only began to encroach into Norse society with the arrival of Christianity. They had a very long oral history tradition...runic writing was reserved for special occasions such as grace stones, battle memorials, etc. Both the prose and poetic eddas were written down by Christian monks, centuries after the arrival of Judeo-Christian ideals in Scandinavia. The gods are much older, thus Loki's fluidity is more tied to his ability to use magic--which was definitely gendered towards women, it was seen as a woman's art. Which culminates in the hypocrisy illustrated in the Lokasenna, where Loki calls out Odin criticizing him for doing the exact same thing.
The community is so desperate for representation...any representation...it makes me sad to see them celebrating any nod in mainstream media/entertainment.
As a black man, also...I can understand this. But it can also be a trap.
Disney is late to the breakthrough. Steven Universe sacrificed itself for representation and basically got cancelled for the wedding kiss (that's why the ending was rushed and they had to rebrand with Steven Universe Future to tie up the loose ends.) Investors pulled out from the show and they couldn't afford to go on any longer from what I know.
Yup! Actually cartoons in general have been fighting for a really long time which resulted in an increase in representation in the last 10-20 years. It’s amazing honestly, even if there is still a long way to go.
Legend of Korra was also struggling to get a lesbian relationship confirmed. In the end, they could only confirm it in the final episode in fear of having the show cancelled. I believe that was 10 years ago give or take. I think that was the first mainstream cartoon to do something like that. I think in a lot of cases, it’s the creators of these stories fighting against the networks. They are passionate about their stories and are willing to fight for them.
Yes I am so grateful for su and it’s creators
Wait.. SERIOUSLY??
this is exactly what ive been failing to say to my cis friends this entire time. i enjoy the show a lot and im mostly glad with the direction that episode 3 went with but it is a bit upsetting that marvel has confirmed that there will be a female version of loki just for it to end up being a completely different character
(sorry if my english is bad im russian so i make a lot of mistakes :'( )
To be fair she seems more like a way to introduce the classic Thor villian enchantress without being redundant or offensive. She not really lady Loki as more of enchantress lady Loki blend. 🤷🏾♂️
I'm going to write fanfiction of Loki being non binary and bi just to spite Disney lol.
I'd read it tbh
link it here if you ever write it please! :D
Link
If you do, can you link it
I would like to read it!
I replied to someone in the comments with this but I think it might be good to also just post it as a comment.
This is a p long comment and I want to make sure that anyone reading understands that i am 100% in favor of queer reading of myth loki and that i think of them as genderfluid (and ofc Marvel Comics Loki is canonly genderfluid)
Brennen only refered to Myth Loki as being able to shapeshift irt sex and did not call them genderfluid and that is probs a good idea.
We cannot map any modern labels onto these myths, loki's perceived genderfluidity in the myths only ever comes in the form of insults and it might just be a "conflating sexuality and gender" type of thing since they are only in their fem presenting form when having sex with a man (basically contributing to the idea that queer men are closer to women than other men and that the person bottoming doesn't count as a man) .
The whole mare thing is actually an insult made literal. In medieval norse times it was a big deal to call a man a mare because it implies that he enjoys anal sex and to bottom for someone, which was seen as shameful. For this insult they could be legally allowed to kill you in retaliation.
In the myths (i recall this happening twice in the Lokasenna) the word argi/ergi is used against Loki. I'm not an expert on this but the word basically serves to demonize any "deviant" behaviour so it's probs not far from a slur.
The parts about Loki shapeshifting their sex might just be conflating sexuality with gender like I said before.
Also, again i am not an expert on this. Most of this info I got from someone I follow and that has studied Norse Mythology and the history of the time period in which it was put onto paper. (also that specific person is genderfluid themself so that is another reason why i'm taking their word on this) (they might not be comfy with me posting their @ on here so sorry about that but most of what i said is just historical context so)
All of this to say that IT IS PROBS PERFECTLY FINE TO ADAPT LOKI AS GENDERFLUID NOW but it is probs not a good idea to map onto the myths (that were full of bad stereotypes that are still used today) and it's tots not a good idea to ever give them credit for "making loki genderfluid" since they don't seem to view it as a good thing.
And to add i 100% headcanon and think of Loki as genderfluid and i fucking hope it makes those long dead bigots real fucking mad.
When it comes to the comics tho! Yeah Loki is genderfluid and anyone that says otherwise has not read shit about the character. If anyone questions if Marvel Loki rlly is genderfluid just tell them that they have canonly labeled themself as such in The Unbeatable Squirrel Girl vol.2 #27.
And they are fine with any pronouns and manners of address as seen in Loki (2019) #4
edit: Also fck The Mouse and his poisonous bigoted bs, Loki deserves better and I'd burn down all of Disney if I fcking could.
I to am not an expert but there is also there's one myth where he eats a witches heart and then basically gives birth to every wicked women in the world. While on one hand it is one of the few times Loki gender fluidity and non conformity is not directly tied into sexual activity or deceptions, on the other hand it reads to me as some adam and eve 'original sin' level of transphobia/misogyny beings implemented into a belief system.
*SPOILERS*
I mean they’ve confirmed he’s queer when it comes to sexually (episode 3) and his sex is fluid but a lot of the gender implications will come down to if Sylvie was ever the same person and main timeline Loki she changed her name but it’s not confirmation and if she was the same person a lot of nature vs nurture and closet conversations kick in and I don’t trust Disney to handle it well.
Please don't tie Disney to it but the mcu. Has the MCU had a past of letting you down and if so how and why. Hold them to their standards not to Disney live action or star wars faults
@@Thed538dhsk
@@Thed538dhsk I wrote a reply 2 weeks ago but it somehow disappeared so I’ll past it against
Disney has a lot of money and Power over Marvel so it’s naïve to ignore they’re influence but even if you take Disney out of the equation Marvel was run by Ike Perlmutter who was a bigot it pretty much every way imaginable was a major reason it took so long to get female lead film and thought literally all black people look the same which it why he thought nobody would notice the Rhodey recast and why he kept vitoing a Black Panther film because he thought nobody would be able to tell all the black characters appart (he’s also committed a bunch of real crimes but they’re all weird an irrelevant) it took Keven Feige years to get rid of him and even then he still ran the TV decision until recently do if it takes literal years to get rid of someone that openly bigoted it’s reasonable to assume A)some of the people he hired as higher ups aren’t great either b) people who are still bigots but not as obvious about it are even harder to fire.
Marvel as a company also has problems.
To me Loki and Thor from avengers feels stupid as an actual Nordic person. Americans makes most things wired... But if you like this then you should read the Magnus Chase books if you haven’t. I feel like you would like them, they have a lot of good representation and are very funny.
I love them too. Alex is the most badass representation ever!
I wonder if greek people feel the same way about the way Zeus/Hades are represented.
Rick Riordan is an actual legend with his writing, I really hope Disney let’s him do his will with the PJO show
The Riordanverse is amazing and uncle Rick actually tries with representation and makes it as accurate as he can.
@@luuuuux_ I remember there being a joke (or at least a comment) in the Magnus Chase series about Thor with blonde hair and Spandex.
I’m so glad I wasn’t the only trans/enby person who felt that solely referring to their sex felt wrong. not only is it extremely minimal representation just to do the file bit (if that’s all that they’re going to/able to do), it reinforces the idea that gender and sex are equal. I really want it in stone that Loki is still who they are even if they don’t shapeshift to portray that in a cisnormative way. personally, I look pretty feminine almost all the time- because of lack of security/resources and because sometimes I WANT to be feminine. but I’m still nonbinary no matter what I choose or don’t choose to look like. vent over, I think 😂 I might add to this as I continue to watch the video
edit: I’M ALSO SO GLAD THAT I WASN’T THE ONLY ONE WHO DIDN’T FEEL RIGHT ABOUT THE LADY LOKI/ENCHANTRESS REVEAL. like holy shit. having a female villain is cool, but 1. literally she’s probably going to be the only female/non-male Loki representation and 2. SHE MIGHT NOT EVEN BE A VERSION OF LOKI SO WE MIGHT NOT EVEN GET CONCRETE NON-MALE LOKI REPRESENTATION. and just making the (possible) non-male and non cisnormative Loki variant so devilishly evil? ew please I need the other episodes to fix this, I’ve been enjoying the series but I’m going to get more frustrated if this keeps going on
agreed! honestly I'd rather have them not try to tackle lady loki at all if they're going to butcher her and loki's gender fluidity.
sylvie seems interesting, but it's weird to me that they're saying she's a loki variant, though that might be just because I'm a comics fan who already knows the character to be somebody different. I've discussed this with other people- she's an entirely different entity from loki, we dont see her as a loki variant, and she also seems set on separating herself from being a loki.
also, yeah, lovely that the first explicitly stated to be queer characters are villains/anti-heroes who have murdered hundreds. thanks disney! /s
I don't think Sylvie is any more evil than our Loki, its just Sylvie being a god of mischief
Yeah, it didn't get better. Loki stills very cishet on the series
also was anyone else majorly disappointed with loki: where mischief lies claiming to have canon genderfluid loki but it was just like 2 sentences and occasionally he wore vaguely gnc clothing?
I know you were talking about live action shows/movies but The Owl House is a Disney cartoon with a lot of promise. A plot in one of the episodes was the character's fear of being rejected by their same-gender crush(who is bi). At the end of the episode they had a very gay dance (look up grom fight dance). The creator said the relationship will be developed further and I'm really hopeful. Even if they don't develop a relationship the one character stated she has a crush on a girl so they take that back from us.
It remains to be seen if they will be together, but it does look promising.
Not to mention that the show it self is created by a Bi woman and the protagonist of the show (Luz) was recently confirmed by the creator herself that she's gender non conforming, and even though this fact is never stated in the show out loud, we can see by the way she dresses and talks about herself sometimes (for example when she says she's a "bad boy") that this was intentional, and I think it's a pretty casual and cool way of doing GNC representation. I believe that's at least two steps in the right direction.
@@imorstrash8985 oh dang! I never knew Luz was gender non conforming, that's so cool! [The 'bad boy' thing makes way more sense now, I just thought it was a cute thing lol]
I wonder if this changes things tho, like Amity's crush on her. It wouldn't be a girl having a crush on a 'girl' anymore, so maybe that's why they allowed it? I hope not.
@@imorstrash8985 She did have to fight with Disney over getting in that representation, and now suspiciously Disney's limiting the 3rd season. :/ But.. yes. Luz saying that was not lost on me and it made me SO happy as a nonbinary person.
I absolutely love sex education but I must state not even having trans represantation in any way shape or form and then also making weird jokes that come off as tone deaf (at least to me who is trans/genderfluid) is quit alarming about how Kate will be handling Loki's identity and with recent interviews about Sylvie yeah its gonna be bad
I already ran into the problem of people conflating sex and gender in the context of this show with my mom. I recently came out as trans and nonbinary to my family and was being all cheerful showing me an article somewhere like: "look I read here Loki is gender fluid" and I had to explain to her that no his sex is fluid (or the word I would have chosen "variable") which is not the same as gender. She was a bit put out about it which honestly was a mood. This shit just makes it way more difficult to explain what being trans means.
Im so happy you call them "time cops" too because I don't know what else to call them. (/gen)
I hope as the show goes on Loki is less straight and we see him be more freely chaotic. It seems he trusts Mobius a bit more than any of the other time cops (though he's a bit passive aggressive). I want Mobius to be fired get a redemption arc that involves... pretty much the opposite of a regular redemption arc..? I mean he already seems the least time-cop-y of them all. He (although jokingly) said Loki could start burning the TVA down at his desk, enjoys jet ski magazines, and doesn't use a coaster. Man is wild (/s). I think Loki will be a protagonist by the end but in a anti-hero sort of way (?) rather than a perfectly pure angel way. (/srs)
I literally ranted to my sibling about this and the most recent "Loki is bi" mess. I swear Loki has been confirmed gender fluid and pan for YEARS, but it just wasn't mentioned in the MCU, until now. The headlines have been saying that he's bi, but he is canonically pan in the comics, so it hurts to see the blatant pan eraser.
They are pretty much patting themselves on their backs for doing the minimum.
He is canonically bi in the comics and has been for a while now. The pan thing came out after and that comic was written by a biphobe
The biggest issue is you are relying on comics and movies to match up. Like Chris Pratt's Starlord is not Bisexual nor will it be mentioned. Idk as a comics/books fan I quit thinking they were one in the same a long time ago.
Just real quick want to pop in and say that bisexual is an umbrella label for lot of people who are attracted to more than one gender and technically pansexual falls under that and his sexuality isn't exactly specifically stated just that he's attracted to both men and women
nah Loki was bi the comics too. He was only written as pan in a novel that had nothing to do with the comics.
Honestly this type of analysis is some of my favorite type of content, regardless of fandom.
Just a note that Kate Herron has indicated that she is bi (though the statement I saw came out after your video, so this isn't a criticism; not sure if she's said anything publicly previously). She said on Twitter that bisexuality "is a part of who [Loki] is and who I am too."
Loki is an amazing character in the MCU.
-Loki is queer.
-Loki is highly intelligent.
-Loki exhibits both heroism and villainy.
-Loki is an arrogant insecure being that craves love and validation.
-Loki is playful.
-Loki is funny, charming, and charismatic.
-Loki enjoys life.
-Loki is strong.
-Loki is weak.
-Loki is prideful.
-Loki is vain.
-Loki is entitled.
-Loki is a son.
-Loki is a brother.
-Loki is a prince.
-Loki is a king.
-Loki is a god.
-Loki is a survivor.
-Loki is a product of his environment and upbringing.
-Loki thinks of his self as above humans, and is possibly one of the most human characters of all.
None of this can be stripped away by anyone.
No one can take away who you are, unless you let them.
Loki will never let anyone take away or tell him who or what he is.
I think maybe you give to much power to the notion that Loki was stripped of his identity, and the queerness within that identity.
I won’t get into what it looks like to be queer vs. what is looks like to be straight.
I also won’t debate whether Loki was more queer coded as a villain than at any other time when he appeared on screen.
Those observations and opinions are in the eye of the beholder.
I would point out that when Loki was in Earth domination villain mode. That it makes sense he would be flamboyant in his outward appearance.
He was trying to conquer an entire planet.
I have never seen him any more or less flamboyant in his appearance than Thor.
“Doth Mother know you wear-ith her drapes.”
Said Iron Man to Thor upon their first meeting.
The manner in which Loki speaks and carries his self is due to where and how he was raised.
He is Asgardian royalty.
Loki wass not stripped of his queerness anymore than he was stripped of any other part of his identity.
Even without his magic or daggers he still managed to run free thru the police station if you will. He was able to out smart and overpower the “cop” that arrested him.
Nothing that has happened to Loki has been to somehow make him less queer.
It has been to make him see the better part of himself. The compassion, love, and trust,that he is capable of giving and receiving.
Given the nature of his character, I do not believe he would ever confirm a gender identity. Not because no one would allow it, but because this is not how his mind works.
Loki does not think in such 2 dimensional ways.
Loki is perhaps above humanity in this thinking. He does not share our limited perception of what makes us who we are.
Loki is a god, just ask him, he will be more than happy to tell you.
disney shows to watch that i think have good rep: andi mack, diary of a future, the owl house, big shot
Thank you! I was looking for this comment!! As a bi girl, I love all of these shows
I just think they straight up dont know and are confused themselves. They just seem like they were told to see loki as fluid and said ok with no actual knowledge.
They are still at fault. They are a HUGE company with so many people working on these marvel movies. Is it that difficult for them to have queer people be involved so this doesn’t happen? Seriously, how hard is it to do minimal research to make sure the information is correct?
It’s not hard to get it right, it just requires caring a little and let the community they are trying to represent have a say in it. I believe they are choosing to poorly represent these things because they honestly have no excuse at this point.
It’s clear that they didn’t actually include genderfluidity in the show at all. They aren’t even leaving it ambiguous, they are actually trying to say loki is always male and sylvie is unique because she’s female. Marvel doesn’t deserve the credit that they got for “representation” when all they did was put a word on a file at the end credits.
i love that the beckwith test specifically fights the villain/bury your gays tropes that were born specifically to dodge the censorship that created them. we've come so far.
WE HAVE THE SAME PRONOUNS, he/ey/they!!! 💕💕💕
I also have,.. Marvel posters. I will soon become you, Brennan. I will commit identity theft.
I really hope the show does a good job with his character
After Disney released the Owl house where most of the characters are LGBT in some way, I thought they’d do more rep but no 🤦🏼♀️
It really depends on how hard the creators are willing to confront big daddy Disney
@@bluflavouredpudding Kinda like Rebecca Sugar with Cartoon Network
@@PaintSplashProductions Indeed, but with Disney it’s even harder
@@bluflavouredpudding Yep
I absolutely love the show Shadowhunters because of how diverse the cast is. We've got lots of PoC and LGBT+ members in main roles and side roles, and it was just such a breath of fresh air.
I'm glad that people are demanding more because we shouldn't have to settle for throw-away background characters as our representation. We deserve better. Bigots may say we're "snowflakes" for wanting representation but they're the ones that can't handle seeing queer people on-screen.
PLEASE- Sir, the only representation they did was like "okay loki is bi back to hetero relationships" sooo
PLUS the way they made him technically fall in love with Sylvie, which is like treating her as a totally separate character from loki which she isn't, is just screwed.
@@luvmypolly well, guess you have a point but marvel is know for having no representation. The thing here is that Marvel finally ahd a chance to represent more and chose not to because they chose self fucking incest over a homosexual relationship.... Like??
@@luvmypolly im REALLY hoping its them being confused because they clearly have had issues with emotional attachments throughout both their lives, and so conflate certain types of attractions in weird ways
I was so excited when I head we were gonna be getting a Lady Loki, because I thought they were gonna let Loki be shown as gender fluid, and I was really disappointed when I saw the actual episode.
I do like the show (in a sorta depressing, suspend my expectations kinda way) but it's amazing how on the nose you are and mirroring my basic impressions at this point -_- I'm so fkin tired lmao. This video hits every point right on the head so clearly Thank You for explaining everything so thoroughly
🐳🦑🐇🦑🐳
Edit: hope u are also being kind to yourself this pride month!!
just watched this after finishing the entire series,,,, disappointed but not surprised. not to mention, the way they portrayed his bisexuality. yes! confirmation at long last! that's so great. ends up as self-cest? really disney? i didn't really care for ships whatsoever since i was simply watching the show for loki shenanigans and nothing more. so the fact that his bisexuality was reduced to that? idk. didn't sit right with me. maybe they'll explore his genderfluidity in the second season but at this point i'm not sure.
Probably won’t
we DEFINITELY stan the Beckwith test
the ONLY representation that I've seen that is at least decent is in the owl house, but disney so far has treated that horribly (ie. putting the two women in a compilation and calling it a friendship, releasing season 2 spoilers in a promo). on the bright side, they just won the peabody award!!
I'm so happy to see you making a video about this. I love Loki and he is the reason I figured out that I am genderfluid, however I'm extremely frustrated with the show but also not surprised. I've had so many people say "but if it's in the show/Loki says/does it then how can it be fluidphohic/transphobic?" as if Loki is a real person. He's a fictional character written by a team of cis writers working for Disney, of course it's possible for it to be offensive. From the TVA assuming the gender of the other Loki they're chasing and both them and Loki calling them 'he', to expecting a word on a file that's on screen for a second in one Instagram promo be 'representation', to fans always using the term 'lady Loki' when Loki has shapeshifted into a different body as if genitalia or pronouns equal gender identity when they don't. Tom Hiddleston's Loki at any time could be identifying as a woman and still be using he/him pronouns (which in the comics it's canon Loki is okay with any and all pronouns) and still be in his AMAB body.
Another comment mention how stupid it is to list his sex as 'fluid' and not his gender but list his hair and eye colours, we all know it should have said gender and not sex. They're different things. Loki is the only way that a lot of cis people learn about genderfluidity and it's going to cause a lot of people to misunderstand and assume wrong things, it already is. The expectation that when a genderfluid person looks more female ah now they must be female, because that's what Loki does, makes me so angry. Just because a genderfluid isn't wearing a binder one day doesn't mean they're identifying as female. I feel like passive aggressively just referring to Tom's Loki with she/her pronouns despite him not being shapeshifted into a different form and see how many people get angry with me, despite it being canon in the comics he's fine with any pronouns because he literally said it (Loki 2019 Issue #4).
Are you going to talk about episode 3 and it's confirmed that Loki's bi
Just a lil thing that i want to add: ignoring the fact that the information listed in the file is... slightly misleading, most people watching the show wouldn't even have noticed it. The shot is so small and blurry and the focus isn't really on the file - i didn't notice it watching the show, only when i've seen screenshots. This representation is not enough because it's easy to not notice and it's easy to ignore :/
I'm confused. I get why some people in the comments are upset because they falsely believe the show is trying to conflate sex with gender, you on the other hand seem to be upset that most people, the general audience, would never have noticed it their first or second time watching it if scrutinizing every scene for clues or t make theories wasn't such a prevelent thing nowadays.
@@DarkPulsaterLiteGear Yes - I know that may seem counterintuitive, but hear me out. Although I am fully aware that sex and gender are not the same thing, other people may not be as progressive in their thoughts and so they belive sex and gender are inexplicably linked. Using this assumption, fluid sex = fluid gender. That isn't my main point though, my main point is that if they (the makers) are going to make it canon that Loki is gender fluid (hence me saying 'ignore the fact that is says sex not gender'), they need it to be more obvious. Many people watching, e.g my parents and younger brother, aren't completely obsessed with the series so they won't be spending time analysing the show and wouldn't have noticed that tiny detail, ergo in their eyes there was not gemderfluid representation - representation is obsolete if it isn't visible to everyone who consumes that piece of media.
I haven't done a good job of explaining this, I'm sorry if I haven't helped you understand my view, but my general opinion is that while yes the information on the file was misleading, perhaps incorrect, and even offensive, there's no point in having it there at all if people aren't forced to acknowledge it.
@@Olly__Zines-By-Blade But what it means is that Loki can change his biological ses on a level only he or a greater power such as the infinity stones could undo. As a matter of fact my theory for what Sylvie's nexus event was is that she became so enthralled with the Valkyries that she changed into a a female presenting form unconsciously and didn't even notice the difference due to being a shape shifter and all. Which, if true, my theory would make Sylvie a trans coded character and would give this scene ua-cam.com/video/Zc5uUMXP3Wk/v-deo.html all the more impactful.
I was hoping Loki could give me more of an insight about Gender fluidity, and it just made me more confused. I understood that sex doesn't equal gender not too long ago. But comments I've been reading and seeing Sylvie as a separate character just confused me that sex fluidity made sense because I though "ok, he's a shapeshifter." But then gender fluidity would also make sense like it can go hand n hand. If Loki changes his/their sex is he changing his gender every time aswell. I needa read the comics
This video is great! I just have one little problem with the Khaki bit towards the end. I think the whole TVA “stripping him of his identity” thing was 100% intentionally meant to be a *bad* thing… and it will be used as a plot device, that sets up Lokis eventual character arc for the series where he expresses his queerness and ditches the TVA. To me thats the clear message I’m getting… but it looks like to you, you’re interpreting the message as: Marvels trying to tell us that Loki not being queer is a good thing. Again this video was great and opened my eyes to a lot of things (I’m sorry if this came off as rude).
they did a better job with Crowley from Good Omens basically
Yeah! I have seen the series and I love his gender fluidity. (There’s no other pronouns stated)
I’m also in the middle of the book and I really like this part: “Many people meeting Aziraphale for the first time, formed three impressions: that he was English, that he was intelligent, and that he was gayer than a tree full of monkeys on nitrous oxide” it then goes on to say he non-binary “Two of these were wrong; Heaven is not in England, whatever certain poets may have thought, and angels are sexless unless they really make an effort…”
Earlier in the story he was also called the F-slur
Im sorry, and this is my only issue with the video, but its pretty clear that the TVA in Loki are pretty clearly coded to be the bad guys, even just looking at episode 1 & 2
Btw I completely agree- but for him being can only queer, doesn’t he say in the third episode that he likes both boys and girls? He says that pretty explicitly but this video might’ve come out before that.
The video is from before that, but they did say he will be giving a follow up after the first season ends
Honestly still feels like it would be messed up if the only non-binary gender fluid character on screen was a trickster, liar, and antagonist.
By that logic what does it say about the fact most antagonists in the MCU are men?
@@DarkPulsaterLiteGear Men are not a minority group without any representation. Lmao.
@@xxx-ie9ic That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying when people talk about representation they always want characters doing the rep to be good guys, but that is unrealistic. There are movies and shows with good rep that have the LGBTQA+ rep as one of the protagonists, but if you want to normalize it you have to show that LGBTQA+ people are like everyone else they can be good, bad, or just indifferent the same as anybody.
@@DarkPulsaterLiteGear Thank you for explaining, that makes a lot more sense. At the same time, I don't think we're seeing a balance here with protagonist rep either.
I much prefer the representation in She-Ra, where it is distributed everywhere, and each character is realistically and relatably portrayed. For example, characters set up to be the bad guys aren't necessarily bad *people.*
It's just like... rep isn't gonna be good no matter what if you're not putting a lot of thought and care into your characters in the first place. I think it really shows when creators truly care about their characters. And I agree with you there. People are just people and should be shown as people. Believable, relatable. Representation should be portrayed thoughtfully.
It's why I love the representation in the Owl House so much, because at least in season 1, it felt like such a natural part of the characters, I barely even noticed it because it didn't feel forced.
It was just the characters being themselves.
Don't know if that makes any sense. XD
Big corporations with near infinite resources at their disposal is so frustrating. Like, they literally could have just *asked* someone...
22:35 Another Disney title that had queer representation was the show 'Andi Mack'. Cyrus came out 3 times and one of those times says explicitly "I'm gay."
1. "They put Loki in khakis" Which is why I'm so hyped for the President Loki episode because look at that bomb ass suit!
2. Amity Blight(The Owl House) is a step in the right direction
3. Sylvie(Lady Loki) changing her name felt like a subtle trans analogy, but that may have just been me
Honestly I think you may have jumped the gun on this one... I could be wrong but everything about what they're setting up here tells me that the TVA are going to be the ultimate bad guys of the show. I mean they literally murder people for being late to work + it seems pretty obvious to me that they're setting up the timekeepers to be big bads. Loki's ep. 2 female variant doesn't come off as a villain to me, so much as a clever person with more knowledge than the audience and protagonist... she could be armed with the knowledge that the TVA is super bad and taking whatever measures are necessary to stop it... Possibly although definitely not certainly the same Loki from the future now with more knowledge of the timekeepers and a plan to destroy them, which could be an excellent way to portray a change in Loki's understanding of his gender identity. She clearly bests him and looks down on him for playing along with the time cops... Maybe she's the "better Loki" because she's expressing herself and *not* confirming to what the time cops want her to be. Maybe Loki following along with them is a cowardly act.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think they're setting up the individual time cops (like Agent Mobius) as bad guys... But they've made it pretty clear that they know they're enforcing these rules for rules' sake just because that is their purpose/what they were created to do. They're pretty ripe for "look, this is what your timekeepers actually are, join me and fight against them" appeals.
Idk, I could be wrong about all of this. But I think the things that you point out that the show is doing "wrong" so far *could* be intentional commentary on queerness, conformity, even senseless police violence... I mean, come on, if "yeah there's no good reason we enforce this timeline in particular, we just do it because the multiverse is a dictatorship now, authority for authority's sake amiright? yeah we murder people who don't conform, yeah we don't really care about tragedies and human suffering lol" somehow manages to portray that system as a *good* thing, I'd be amazed. I know it's ostensibly to prevent a second multiversal war but the way that information is presented is practically a giant megaphone screaming "this is in-universe propaganda and may not be trustworthy!"
In the very least I couldn't say right now that I expect the queer representation in Loki to be good or bad based on the show so far. Not necessarily expecting it to be amazing queer rep but I think it's too soon to judge it now. In the very least you're probably right that Loki is almost certainly not going to say "I would like to use x pronouns now please." But maaaybe we'll see Lady Loki tell him to express himself as he pleases, not as people like the TVA tell him to, and maybe we'll see him respond to that by changing his gender expression. Idk, that is admittedly optimistic of me. But I'm going to let the show fail before I give up on it, anyway.
bestie, i think you were onto something. kinda.
WAIT!
Ok so they definitely haven't done much for Lokis gender identity on the show (I don't think) BUT they do mention how loki has canonicaly gone out with both men and women. When he and Lady Loki are talking about love he mentions that he's "had a little bit of both" when it comes to going out with princes and princesses. This is in episode 3 I think?
Yep he's and they talked about it so at least we have bi Loki :]
It's sylvie her name, she says she dosen't like to be called loki which I think alludes to the fact that she identifies as woman but born asign as male or something like that, because think about it, the timelines are suposed to branch out from the same timeline if I understood it corectly, so she probrably started the sames as the mcu loki, but since loki is gender fluid, her gender indentity is female
@@dan13352 but also I hate that he’s falling in love basically with that character because that’s akin to incest
@@shockanova I don't think it's exactly like that. I saw another comment that I thought was really good. it talked about how Loki is a narcissist and can only really love himself so it sorta shows that in a way
@@pumpkin5517 nah it's just lazy writing
I don’t know I think it’s to earlier to judge the show, there is literally only three episodes so far so we don’t really know what they’re going to do. I mean I’m not excepting anything more than some “hint hint” “nudge nudge” sadly but we have to wait to see.
Haven't finished watching this video yet but I've been wondering how you're able to enjoy Marvel movies and characters with all the just... homophobia/transphobia and military/cop propaganda--not to mention Disney's grip on the MCU. Thanks for being critical of the thing you enjoy, because to me that really shows you care how these characters and stories are portrayed and want to ask more of the writers/actors/etc.
I'm too hateful toward Disney and bored with superheroes to want to engage with Marvel, but it's people like you who will hopefully push them to be more inclusive (not just dancing around nonbinary gender identity to try not to lose fans!)
EDIT: THEY MADE LOKI A COP???
Yes many of these movies are partially funded by the us military that bleu mynfucking brian
About the cop thing: Well kinda. So In Endgame the Avengers traveled back to the events of The first Avengers films and something goes wrong, that Loki ultimately gets the tesseract and escapes. Creating a new timeline, he gets arrested by what basically is the time police. And because he created a new timeline and isn't the "main" Loki they were going to erase him but one of the people working there plead to change Loki and make him useful. So He's kinda a cop but at the time not really since he doesn't want to work for them
@@trixicenby999 oh weird… I’m glad you can understand that stuff, I’m confused! XD
@@benjaminramsey498 Trigun, Odd Taxi, Satoshi Kon and Ghibli ftw ✌️
Great overview of Loki and Disney's inability to properly represent queer people. At least in history, Norse gods have radical gender representations. If only we could slip that bit of context into Disney's representation of them in a more substantive light.
The best/worst part of this video is just how hurt you sound and I wish I could give you a giant giant hug.
I have a feeling that we won't get proper representation in major franchises until it's profitable enough for companies to do so. They'll do anything for profit.
i also dont like how theyd be sooner to kinda make a morally gray villian genderfluid without even exploring it but if you suggest that a morally perfect hero like spider-man is bisexual your gone
I feel like the way Rick Riordan chose to deal with Loki and their children’s shapeshifting and their gender in his Magnus Chase series is the closest to good representation, although not perfect. In the books there’s two children of Loki, both can shapeshift so both their sexes would technically be fluid, but they only shapeshift into animals. When it comes to gender, Sam is a woman and Alex is gender fluid, uses she/him pronouns and although it’s not explicitly explained on what degree, it is possible to assume that Alex does shapeshift when going from one gender to the other since the main character can tell, other characters can’t but it’s probably bc he pays more attention to her bc he likes her (like it’s not his outer appearance that changes since he has kind of an androgynous look but something does change bc Magnus wouldn’t be able to tell otherwise). When it comes to Loki, they are Sam’s father but Alex’s mother and appear as both with a clear physical difference.
Also, quick question, what pronouns should I use when referring to gender fluid ppl that don’t use they/them? Should I just sometimes use she/her and in other time he/him? I can’t find the answer online so that’s why I’m asking here 😪
I would ask what the persons pronouns are
I kinda want a low key way to say I’m nonbinary to people..
Can we make saying
“I’m Low-key Loki” a little code thing xD
That interviewer doesn’t understand that sexuality is not sex.. sexually is who you want to bang… whaaat?
I’m gonna go into something a little weird ok.. I have a dissociative disorder with alters. Within the brain there are nearly 46/40/4 female, male, and nonbinary.
One of the nonbinary has all parts and isn’t humanoid. He likes He him pronouns, but doesn’t see the point in actually being a sex/gender as he can never have a sexual partner, or experience attraction, and parts mean nothing to him, his sex parts are useless. They just exist, but they don’t exist. They are everything and nothing.. so what’s the point?
My identity as fluidflux comes from the fact that my fellow alters come and go, and bring with them expressions, traits and feelings attached to their gender. That’s not how everyone who’s NB reaches the self understanding of being nonbinary. There are other things.. That’s just us
I just wanna see a fem Loki
The Loki of Norse myth absolutely is sexfluid in a literal sense, Loki is attested the Father of Hel, Jormungandr, and Fenrir. Loki is attested as the mother of the 8 legged horse Sleipnir.
Problematically this fluidity was likely used by the hyper masculine Norse society to reinforce the idea of Loki as villian of the pantheon.
Calling him fluid in the Marvel show is two-fold, a nod to the real norse myth, and a bit of foreshadowing for Sylvie's introduction
You don't have to say "monster and cop", you can just say "cop"
Hi im gender fluid. When I heard that Loki was going to be gender fluid himself i was wondering how they'll mess it up... Hopefully the second season for Loki will have him be gender fluid, but I'm not counting on it.
uh episode 3 spoilers
42:56 this is already literally word for word a quote from Sylvie
this is a really good video actually. I completely agree (at least to the point where any criticisms are nitpicks), and I *hate* that as a gender⍰⍰⍰ bisexual person I've been primed to get so excited about things like "sex: fluid" and "a bit of both," or even just the possible interpretations of Loki not batting an eye at his alternate reality self being visibly a woman. To be entirely fair, I am slightly more optimistic after the 3rd episode, both for the fact that there was any kind of undeniable queer representation (bonus that you don't need to pause to see it) and that Sylvie seems less and less like the villain and also more trans coded. Note the slightly though, I'm not expecting much, but probably more than Brennen was when ey made this video. idk. At least at this point I'm worrying more about a lack of good representation than I am about Sylvie turning out to be a lying cis man, I see that option as quite a bit less likely now.
Also not sure how I'm feeling about Sylvie calling her name an alias? I'm not sure if it's slightly transphobic, or a wink and nudge (given that she was pretty insistent about being called by her name), or if I'm kinda 👀 about it, given that the "alias" thing combined with basically everything Loki says about it implies that Loki considers his own name to be gender neutral.
Optimistic about the "all the time cops are abused civilians and the TVA is almost definitely evil" thing because it might sort of let them have their cake and eat it too, it lets them avoid the more controversial implication that all the t̶i̶m̶e̶
cops are corrupt, but still allows them to make the weirdly oppressive and strict entities enforcing the time laws be explicitly evil. Like, they like having three people all the way at the top to blame for all the problems on their rather than having it be a complicated issue, and I like having the fantasy time cops be the bad guys. win-win.
Also on a note that makes me sound less smart, I'm really excited about the idea of the MCU possibly finally finally opening up to the multiverse, and they've been kinda hinting at that for a while now
My thoughts is Loki is someone whose sex is fluid - as in Loki's physical sex is fluid, 'he' can be male, female etc. (Which as a genderfluid person is my dream, if only I could switch back and forth based on my identity at the moment.) I believe in the comics and the Norse Myth is more of that Gender and physical Sex is just another thing that Loki bends to 'his' needs at the time and moment he is in. But MCU - grrrr - is so worries about international markets that they are trying to tiptoe the line and they have no real understanding of it. so they just f it all up.
On Disney+ Big Shot has a semi-important wlw couple in the last couple of episodes and The Owl House (my beloved) has a bi main character with a lesbian love interest, but I agree with all of your points and I hope that Disney does better. Exploring Loki's gender identity more could be so beneficial if they just get people who know what they are doing.
Actual Loki is genderfluid but yeah, Disney Loki is like, genderfluid in the sense they'll say Loki is for cash lmao.
ca. 32:30 - I'd add an exception to #2 of the Beckwith test: If the queer character is always unhappy, it must clearly be the fault of homophobia/transphobia, and serve as an indictment of bigotry. The great James Baldwin wrote a magnificent view of the 1959 filmed version of Porgy and Bess in which he wrote that he liked the opera, thought the filmic adaptation was a disaster, and that what he found missing in the opera is what the hardships of the Black community say about the White society that created them.
I do like how you added "or never achieve anything" to #2, though! The biopic Milk comes to mind as a story that ends in a senseless death, because it did in real life (and it would be a disgrace to sanitize Harvey Milk's story), but only after the protagonist had enormous achievements.
Please keep in mind that not all non-binary/genderfluid people use they/them! There isn't one true way to be non-binary.
I am SO SICK of people claiming that Luca is Q*eer Bating. It was never referenced in the release, it was never hinted at, it was honestly the fans who have Q*eer bated themselves. Even the director is cool with people seeing it as LGBTQ+ and the same as Stephen King's stance on Reddie. That they didn't originally intend such but Art is subjective. Like I see Luca more so as hiding my Autism, not as them being gay, but once again everyone is allowed a head canon we need to be respectful of others HC too. I mean I have friends who HC Richie Tozier as NB and Eddie Kaspbrak as Trans and while in canon they are cisgender men they are allowed to have a damn head canon. I really want representation too, but literally getting pissed that Luca and Alberto weren't actually canonized as gay, is really so backwards. If they make a sequel and Luca is gay, yes that's wonderful! But if they make a sequel and he ends up with Gulia that's fine too and guess what, your ship and your head canon isn't destroyed by that. Also doesn't that just make all shapeshifters like Pennywise a fluid sex?
you make a fair point about luca, but I'm not sure you can excuse Raya and Namari not being cannon in the same way. btw not implying that you have the same opinion about raya and the last dragon, just pointing out another disney+ children's movie where two characters could have been seen as queer, which was especially true for raya and namari, even more so than luca.
@@kirstenjackson2172 True! And Kelly Marie Tran actually said that Raya was Gay and in love with Namari I think on Twitter. I honestly can't debate that one as not Q*eer bating that is true but even the Voice actors for Luca haven't said "Luca is Gay." Or "Alberto is Gay." You do have an excellent point with Raya being Q*eerbaited and also canon. Also if one does ship Luca/Alberto the director is fine with it its just not canon to the movie and that's fine I just wish everyone would respect Head Canons as what they are, how you personally see that work of art.
@@luvmypolly yep, they sure did and also blaming Disney for baiting them is BS, its been Buzzfeed, Polygon, and even the New York Times baiting by doing titles of articles like "Callamari by your name" hence making people look at it as animated CMBYN and then setting themselves up for disappointment. I personally get that Brennan is pointing out real cases of them baiting the community but Luca is NOT one of them.
To be fair, Loki is mythically canonly able to change sex at will so I’d say that’s pretty fluid
All I have to add to this really great convo is that Kate Herron is actually bisexual, therefore is queer, not that a cis bisexual person can necessarily represent a gender queer person correctly, but I thought I'd just put that out there
Edit: just checked your Twitter and saw that you RT'ed Kate's tweet about being bi, but imma leave this comment up for others
Norse god can shapeshift first he man now he woman. So, genderfluid.
SO GLAD to finally see another video of yours pop up 🖤
I mean the Owl House has pretty good representation, but from what I've heard the creator had to really fight for that.
For any one looking for good genderfluid representation, Alex Fierro is the trans, genderfluid child of Loki in the Magnus Chase trilogy of books by Rick Riordan, the books actually portrayed her identity in an open and respectful way, it's not about shape shifting, she can't change into other people, so her sex is always the same, it's about the way she feels and presents herself/himself, she is proud of who she is, and has no problem letting people now when her pronouns are he/him or she/her, also she is one of the main characters in the last two books and the love interest for the protagonist, so yeah, we need a Magnus Chase movie.
Yes!!!! I'm hoping that the Percy Jackson TV show will be able to lead into shows for his other series (like Magnus Chase) as well.
I wanted to put my two cents in as a genderfluid person who grew up with the MCU.
When I watched the first episode of Loki with my family, I couldn't put my finger on why I didn't like it. It was definitely Loki, they went into his insecurities, but it felt like it wasn't Loki, if you can understand? I loved Loki since the first time I watched Avengers, starting a common pattern in my life of falling for and seeing myself in queercoded villains. I watched the first episode of Loki and watched as the reasons I loved Loki, his unapologetic nature to be himself and to strive for what he wants and needs be twisted. He wasn't queercoded anymore. He wasn't a genderfluid pansexual god anymore, he was solidified into a corner. And that corner was, more or less, a cis man. Everything I saw in the character that I related to in all moments was filed down to one moment where he said that he doesn't like hurting people but he can't stop because it makes him feel stronger since he feels so weak. That was it. I couldn't see myself in anything else. I felt that he was the one person that I felt safe with, although he was fictional. He was me and I was him, as far as I was concerned. And that feels really selfish to say that they took this character from me but it still hurts because I get so little.
This was really all over the place and I can't express my feelings, I completely agree with Brennan in this video, but I am in a lot of pain since very suddenly I lost something that has been safe for me my whole life.
Can we talk about how Loki feel inlove with his self (basically) 😭
Yeah lol it’s basically advanced incest
When Sylvie was introduced, I figured it'd be a good way to speak about Loki being genderfluid in more than a paper, but in the later episodes, it's explained that Loki/Sylvie being a girl was "the problem" that the timekeepers wanted to kill her for. They were basically saying that Loki being anything but a man is "wrong", really killing the hope that they'd show his genderfluidity well, if you ask me