My vocal score has this section of the song in Cb major (note to self: do *not* be the reason someone has to sight-read this at an audition!), and spells the chord Bb-C in the bass, Db-Gb-A(nat)-C(nat) in the treble. Removing the doubled C in the bass and spelling it enharmonically, it's A#-C#-F# + F#(common tone)-A-C, which could be considered a polychord: F#dim/F#maj (1st inversion). That seems like something Sondheim would enjoy sneaking in.
Keith, I spoke too soon. I didn't spend enough time with this and I somehow got a D natural in there instead of C. So I imagined a D7 chord over an F sharp major chord. Using the correct notes it's probably better to simplify it with Bb minor chord in the left hand with a diminished triad in the right hand. Steven Sondheim doubles the C. But did you notice the harpsichord part? In the recording I barely hear it. I suppose my point if I have one is that with something like this I hear two different chords melded together. So if I try to use any kind of conventional stacking it pushes me away from what I am actually hearing. But how we hear things is very personal and probably impossible to fully describe.
Ahh that's a good way to think about this chord, too - Bb min with an F# diminished added above. I did notice the harpsichord! In the reduced score it reads : C#-C-A-F#-C#-C - all chord tones. You're right about the subjective nature of hearing and labeling these types of atonal-leaning chords. It's fun to hear from other composers and get different perspectives on them.
Your analysis here is making me unable to hear something very simple. I think that assigning degrees to sounds like this is pointless. I hear very clearly F sharp major with a D7 right on the top. All you have to do is delete the root of the F sharp major chord. Then when I add the snippet of a melody right before this cord whatever it is, I can instantly play it in any key. I now own the sound forever. I'm after the sound always. If the analysis is over-complicated and drives me away from the sound I immediately reject it as useless.
That’s an interesting point, Gary. I agree that the sound is what’s most important but this is how I arrive at learning precisely what the sound is. It’s helpful for my understanding and my hope is that it will help other composers that are interested.
@@Keith_Horn Since I discovered your channel just a few days ago I have been utterly fascinated with what you're doing here. I think I may be your biggest fan. You can depend upon me to totally support your efforts in the future. I absolutely love Into the Woods and have listened to the video with Bernadette Peters countless times. So I was already familiar with this exact spot but I had never thought about what it was harmonically. I'm also a big supporter of simplicity when it works. I was thinking about how I would explain this chord to some of my younger students. I would tell them to play a major triad with the left hand and then play a dominant 7 chord 1/2 tone higher in the right hand. I would then explain that Sondheim's chord is the same thing if you eliminate the root of the major chord in the left hand. My thinking is that people try to hear things abstractly before they can actually play these things immediately in the hands in some key. In this case I clearly see a polychord. Unfortunately we can't ask for a vote because most people in our You Tube channels don't ever comment.:)
@@garydlloyd7718 Thanks, Gary. I appreciate the support and the engagement. One of the reasons I started making this series is to connect with others that also like talking about great harmony. I'm interested in what you said about explaining this chord to a younger student. Can you elaborate on how you would spell that chord? Thanks for your time!
You have to delete the root of the D7 chord also and don't forget to double the seventh of the incomplete D7 just below the fifth of the incomplete F# major.
@@mjazzguitar Oh I see now - Gary meant add a Dom7 a 1/2 step above the FIFTH of the left hand - and then delete the root of the D7. Thanks for clarifying! To make a distilled version it's easier for me to start with an F# major triad and add half steps/semitones below (or major 7ths above) the third and fifth.
Please please please please: do not stop making these videos! I'm a big fan from Spain; this is really useful and interesting. Thanks a lot!
Thank you! I’m so glad you are enjoying the series.
My vocal score has this section of the song in Cb major (note to self: do *not* be the reason someone has to sight-read this at an audition!), and spells the chord Bb-C in the bass, Db-Gb-A(nat)-C(nat) in the treble. Removing the doubled C in the bass and spelling it enharmonically, it's A#-C#-F# + F#(common tone)-A-C, which could be considered a polychord: F#dim/F#maj (1st inversion). That seems like something Sondheim would enjoy sneaking in.
Oh man that's a crazy key signature. That polychord analysis totally makes sense.
Would love to see you explore the pointillism in Sunday in the Park with George
That's a great idea. That could lend itself to some good exercises. I do have a video on the opening chord ua-cam.com/video/B4xeT16X5VE/v-deo.html
Keith, I spoke too soon. I didn't spend enough time with this and I somehow got a D natural in there instead of C. So I imagined a D7 chord over an F sharp major chord.
Using the correct notes it's probably better to simplify it with Bb minor chord in the left hand with a diminished triad in the right hand. Steven Sondheim doubles the C.
But did you notice the harpsichord part? In the recording I barely hear it.
I suppose my point if I have one is that with something like this I hear two different chords melded together. So if I try to use any kind of conventional stacking it pushes me away from what I am actually hearing.
But how we hear things is very personal and probably impossible to fully describe.
Ahh that's a good way to think about this chord, too - Bb min with an F# diminished added above. I did notice the harpsichord! In the reduced score it reads : C#-C-A-F#-C#-C - all chord tones. You're right about the subjective nature of hearing and labeling these types of atonal-leaning chords. It's fun to hear from other composers and get different perspectives on them.
Sound liké Eb7#9 13😅
It does! but with no root, no third, and an added #11
Your analysis here is making me unable to hear something very simple. I think that assigning degrees to sounds like this is pointless.
I hear very clearly F sharp major with a D7 right on the top. All you have to do is delete the root of the F sharp major chord. Then when I add the snippet of a melody right before this cord whatever it is, I can instantly play it in any key. I now own the sound forever.
I'm after the sound always. If the analysis is over-complicated and drives me away from the sound I immediately reject it as useless.
That’s an interesting point, Gary. I agree that the sound is what’s most important but this is how I arrive at learning precisely what the sound is. It’s helpful for my understanding and my hope is that it will help other composers that are interested.
@@Keith_Horn Since I discovered your channel just a few days ago I have been utterly fascinated with what you're doing here. I think I may be your biggest fan. You can depend upon me to totally support your efforts in the future.
I absolutely love Into the Woods and have listened to the video with Bernadette Peters countless times. So I was already familiar with this exact spot but I had never thought about what it was harmonically.
I'm also a big supporter of simplicity when it works. I was thinking about how I would explain this chord to some of my younger students. I would tell them to play a major triad with the left hand and then play a dominant 7 chord 1/2 tone higher in the right hand. I would then explain that Sondheim's chord is the same thing if you eliminate the root of the major chord in the left hand.
My thinking is that people try to hear things abstractly before they can actually play these things immediately in the hands in some key. In this case I clearly see a polychord. Unfortunately we can't ask for a vote because most people in our You Tube channels don't ever comment.:)
@@garydlloyd7718 Thanks, Gary. I appreciate the support and the engagement. One of the reasons I started making this series is to connect with others that also like talking about great harmony. I'm interested in what you said about explaining this chord to a younger student. Can you elaborate on how you would spell that chord? Thanks for your time!
You have to delete the root of the D7 chord also and don't forget to double the seventh of the incomplete D7 just below the fifth of the incomplete F# major.
@@mjazzguitar Oh I see now - Gary meant add a Dom7 a 1/2 step above the FIFTH of the left hand - and then delete the root of the D7. Thanks for clarifying! To make a distilled version it's easier for me to start with an F# major triad and add half steps/semitones below (or major 7ths above) the third and fifth.