During the height of the Athenian Empire someone asked Themistocles "who is ruling the world?" and he replied "my son because i am ruled by my wife and she is ruled by my son"
When my son got confused about why he kept laughing when I poked his ribs, yet he wanted me to stop, I simply had to tell him, "Themistocles.... And so is THESE" **pokes him in the ribs again**
The saying comes from Plutarch’s Parallel Lives: “This child”, said Themistocles, “is the most powerful ruler in Greece: for Athens rules Greece, I rule Athens, his mother rules me, and he rules his mother.” Themistocles - total troll! 😜
@@Trolis09090 He means the Delian League, it's just a way that most people call the ''organization'' in English. Like how in Greece we say ''Αθηναική Ηγεμονία'' when we talk about it, at least that is how I remember it in school.
Those UA-cam type titles do leave you guessing! Really liked your video too, thank you for your expertise! Also, I’d never heard of Gorgo but did know Sappho, so point in your favor there.
Ancient Greek women in mathematics... Αίθρα - Aethra (10th - 9th century BC) daughter of the king of Troizina Pitthea and mother of Theseus, in another capacity unknown to many. The quality of arithmetic teacher. So sacred to the beginnings of the most cerebral science, Aethra taught arithmetic to the children of Troizina, with that complex awe-inspiring method, since there was no zero… and the numbers were symbolically complex, as their symbols required many repetitions. -------------------------- Πολυγνώτη - Polygnoti (7th - 6th century BC) The historian Lovon Argeios mentions Polygnotis as a companion and student of Thalis. A scholar of many geometric theorems, it is said (Vitruvius' testimony) that this also contributed to the simplification of arithmetic symbols by introducing the principle of acrophony, that is, by introducing alphabetic letters that corresponded to each in the initial letter of the name of the number. Thus, Δ, the initial of Δέκα (ΤΕΝ), represents the number 10. X, the initial of Χίλια (Thousand), represents the number 1000 etc. According to Vitruvius, Polygnoti formulated and first proved the proposition "Εν κύκλω η εν τω ημικυκλίω γωνία ορθή εστίν - In the circle the angle in the hemi-circle is right angle" --------------------------------------------- Θεμιστόκλεια - Themistoklia (6th century BC). Diogenes the Laertius scholar-writer mentions it as "Αριστόκλεια - Aristoclia or Θεόκλεια - Theoclia. Pythagoras took most of his moral principles from the Delphic priestess Themistoclia, who at the same time introduced him to the principles of arithmetic and geometry. According to the philosopher Aristoxenos (4th century BC), Themistoclia taught mathematics to those of the visitors of Delphi who had the relevant appeal. Legend has it that Themistoclia decorated the altar of Apollo with geometric shapes. According to Aristoxenos, Pythagoras admired the knowledge and wisdom of Themistoclia, a fact that prompted him to accept women later in his School. ------------------------------- Μελίσσα - Melissa (6th century BC). Pupil of Pythagoras. He was involved in the construction of regular polygons. Lovon Argeios writes about an unknown work of hers: "Ο Κύκλος Φυσίν - η Μελίσσα - Των Εγγραφομένων Πολυγώνων Απάντων Εστί".The circle is always the basis of the written polygons" or so. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Τυμίχα - Tymicha (6th century BC). The Thymiha wife of Crotonian Millios was (according to Diogenes Laertius) a Spartan, born in Croton. From a very early age he became a member of the Pythagorean community. Iamblichus mentions a book about "friend numbers". After the destruction of the school by the Democrats of Croton, Tymicha took refuge in Syracuse. The tyrant of Syracuse, Dionysios, demanded that Tymicha reveal to him the secrets of the Pythagorean teaching for a great reward. She flatly refused and even cut her tongue with her teeth and spat in Dionysius' face. This fact is reported by Hippobotus and Neanthis. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Βιτάλη - Vitali or Vistala(6th - 5th century BC). Vitali daughter of Damos and granddaughter of Pythagoras. Expert in Pythagorean mathematics. Before Pythagoras died, he entrusted her with the "memoirs", that is, the philosophical texts of her father. ---------------------------------------------------------- Πανδροσίων ή Πάνδροσος - Pandrosion or Pandrossos (4th century AD). Alexandrian geometer, probably a student of Pappos, who dedicates to her the third book of the "Synagogue". Pandrosion divides geometric problems into three categories:" Three genera are of the problems in Geometry and these, levels are called, and the other linear ones" ------------------------ Πυθαϊς - Pythais PYTHAUS (2nd century BC). Geometer, daughter of the mathematician Zenodoros. ------------------------------------------- Αξιόθεα - Axiothea (4th century BC). She is also a student, like Lasthenia, of Plato's academy. He came to Athens from the Peloponnesian city of Fliounda. He showed a special interest in mathematics and natural philosophy. He later taught these sciences in Corinth and Athens. ------------------------------------------------- Περικτιόνη - Periktioni (5th century BC). Pythagorean philosopher, writer and mathematician. Various sources identify her with Perictioni, Plato's mother and Critius' daughter. The mathematician, like the philosopher Plato, owes his first acquaintance with mathematics and philosophy to Periction. -------------------------- Διοτίμα - Diotima from Mantineia (6th-5th century BC). In Plato's "Symposium", Socrates refers to the Teacher of Diotima, a priestess in Mantineia, who was a Pythagorean and a connoisseur of Pythagorean numerology. According to Xenophon, Diotima had no difficulty in understanding the most difficult geometric theorems. ------------------------------- Iamblichos in his work "On Pythagorean Life", saved the names of seventeen Pythagorean women who were connoisseurs of Pythagorean philosophy and Pythagorean mathematics. We have already mentioned some of them. The rest: Ρυνδακώ - Rynthako Οκκελώ - Okkelo Χειλωνίς - chilonis Κρατησίκλεια - Kratisiklia Λασθένια - Lasthenia Αβροτέλεια - Avrotelia Εχεκράτεια - Ehekratia Θεανώ - Theano Τυρσηνίς - Tyrsinis Πεισιρρόδη - Pisirrodi Θεαδούσα - Theathousa Βοιώ - Voto Βαβέλυκα - Vavelyka Κλεαίχμα - Cleaihma Νισθαιαδούσα - Nistheathousa Νικαρέτη - Nikareti from Corinth
Πες τους να κάνουν επείγοντος μετάφραση τα βιβλία της τζιροπουλου και τόσων άλλων σπουδαίων είναι επιτακτική ανάγκη γιατί δεν ξέρουν που τους πάνε τα τέσσερα... Έχεις δίκιο φυσικά σε αυτό που έχεις αναρτήσει...
Minor correction: Theseus was the mythological hero who killed the Minotaur and delivered Athens from the MINOAN yoke! So his mother and thus himself couldn't have been born in the 10th-9th century BC !! Given that the Minoan civilization lasted as an independent culture till about 1450 BC - when it was invaded and dominated by the mainland Mycenaean Greeks -, he most definitely is supposed to have lived BEFORE that date, during the reign of the legendary King Minos of Knossos! And since Minos supposedly reigned in Crete during the apex of Minoan power, Theseus must have lived BEFORE even the eruption of the Thera ( modern island of Santorini) volcano, which created the titanic tsunami that destroyed the major Minoan cities in Crete and severely weakened the Minoans! According to geologists and archaeologists , this happened sometime in the 17th century BC!! So this is the era when Theseus ( and consequently his mother...) lived...
Hm. Wouldn't the most famous ancient Greek woman be Cleopatra VII? Surely her name and story is known by far more than any other? I could be wrong tho.
This happens with all types of fandom of course, but a lot of gamers seem to overestimate the popularity of the pastime. Civilization VI sold the most copies of any Civ game at 11 million. Total for the entire series is under 30 million. A lot of those copies were probably never played or never saw Gorgo. But because Metatron is invested in the game and interacts with a lot of other people who are also invested in it, he assumes that everyone knows Gorgo from Civ. I'd bet that if you asked the average person about Gorgo they'd say "You mean Medusa, she was a gorgon, right?"
@@cmlemmus494I've never played that game, but i know who Gorgo is, and I'mpretty sure i know her in the same way Metatron knows her, which is not through gaming. I read about her in a book. Don't forget that Metetron was a teacher long before he was streaming games and making youtube videos.
That’s what this age of baiting outrage trickery a.i. Clickbait Titles does with our brain....... Slowly poisoning us into ignorance... Something in that direction I spitball guessing a bit! 🤨🙃
I looked into her and I see why they said that. After getting her first-class degree at Oxford in 2019, she did two master's degrees: one in Greek and Roman history at Oxford and one in Art History (specifically the Venetian Renaissance) at Courtauld Institute of Art. She's now back at Oxford working on a doctorate with a focus on political sex scandals in Ancient Rome. (I look forward to any future videos on that topic!) But you can't put all that on a video tag. ;)
I’d be up for an ancient government video. If nothing else, wanna know the difference between an ancient tyranny vs a modern dictatorship, if anything.
@@maxstirner6143 I think its more correct to say dictator in a modern usage is basically the same as Tyrant. I dont remember anyone using dictator in anything but a negative tone.
@Pawsk fair. But the fact the pol doesn't know the meaning doesn't make it right. A dictator can be good or bad. It's just a position. The Russian and Greek adjacent world use the word autocrator.
@@maxstirner6143 well i dont agree that a dictator is simply a “position” or rather form of government. A king would be a dictator, but we dont refer to kings of the past as dictators but unless they were particularly bad. The meaning of the word isnt fixed by anything other than our use, and to me our use is quite a lot closer to Tyrant than to “sole ruler”. Just like the Greeks we load our words, and dictator in modern times is negatively loaded. Just like King was negatively loaded to the romans. Or tyrant in greece. If we look at “dictators” who are looked at somewhat positively like Lee Kuan Yew, then often they will be called statesmen instead.
@@Pawsk 1 dictator is a roman position inside the SPQR, it ended being used by the emperors to gather power 2 when you're thinking bout kings, you're thinking XVIII cent kings, autocrats; not XI kings that needed their feudal minions to control the country 3 you think bad of dictators as you have the republican mentality 4 as i said, the fact that non ilustrated ppl doesnt know the real meaning, doesnt mean that those who have studies, have to also use the word in a bad way. The fact that we have studies, means we must use the word correctly
I would argue Aspasia was the most famous and influential woman in ancient Greece, woman of Periklis, the most respected historical figure of the time, a woman that loved philosophy and involved herself in the political affairs. Socrates himself mentions her as an influence in his rhetoric, definetely a woman to remember As a greek woman I am loving a non biased historic video on ancient greek women , not trying to push narratives, just history
Having grown up in Athens, with school history heavily focusing on the Classical Age to the detriment of the Hellenistic and Archaic, I'd say most people around here would probably answer the same.
People often view Athens as oppressive because they judge the past by the standards of the present. Moreover, they fail to view the culture of Athens relative to other nations of that time.
@theguyfromsaturn I ike to bring it into more recent history then apply something of a logorhythmic perspective. Think 100 years in the past and 100 years in the future. Ask someone what was widely considered socially acceptable or even proper in 1925 that would be considered unacceptable in 2025. Next, ask them to think on what socially acceptable or even proper cultural norms in 2025 might be considered unacceptable in 2125. Judging the past by the standards of the present leaves people in the present open to equally harsh future judgement.
@@osmaniesquijarosa4308half of the Athenian male population was free which was easily the most of any Greek city state, and woman still had more rights in Athens then most Greek societies. Sparta meanwhile, had 10% of its male population as citizens, the rest were slaves. So in exchange for doing that, woman could own land temporarily for their husbands if they were unable to tend to it, had some combat training (not soldiers but enough to aid in a siege of the city itself), ancient society cannot be viewed from a fully modern viewpoint since no one in America is enslaved, compared to ancient Athens which still had half of its male population acting as slaves, or a bit less than half actually since a lot of males weren’t slaves or citizens in Athens at least, which still makes it a beacon of democracy compared to everywhere else at the time.
@ pretty sure not being able to vote in a democracy for being a women or a slave is the objective definition of political oppression. I'm sorry but this isn't a matter of imparting modern views to the past, it's just plain objectivity, people back then knew it was oppressive against those excluded, they just didn't give a shit and that's fine, it was par for the times.
9:30 I think she was more talking about it from a modern perspective, because a lot of people think of it like a modern democracy or better so it’s good to debunk that.
1 in 4 (a bit more or less depending on the source) inhabitants of Athens were slaves. The definition for slave being: "a person who is forced to work for and obey another and is considered to be their property". No matter the period, there is no doubt that ancient Athens was an oppressive state. And pretending that any state that practiced slavery was less oppressive than other states because "at least it was not as bad as X" is apologistic
welcome to the new wave of my generation looking at everything through the western centric lens, and if you don't view it in that lens you are a tradionalist and a bigot.
New to your channel and I am thoroughly enjoying your content. I appreciate your respect for the person while disagreeing with their opinion and for expanding on why you disagree.
I've never heard of Gorgo but definitely heard of Sappho, and imho her arguments about how Sappho has become part of the modern lexicon trounce any 'mention by Herodotus'.
I'd heard of Sappho but not Gorgo. I do love literature and I did take ancient Greek in school, so maybe she came up in literature at some point, but I don't recall Gorgo at all. And I've watched 300 a dozen times because Gerard Butler shirtless.
I've actually read her book on Messalina. I highly recommend it, her writing is very good, she also raises some very interesting points about one of the most blackened women of Ancient Rome, whilst also not dismissing the ancient sources just because they are hostile.
I discovered your channels recently and it feels like home. Like having interesting conversations with a good friend on subjects of mutual interest, extremely familiar ! Love from Athens ,Greece
25:10 In Modern Greek (a gendered language as well), we don't have a gender neutral word that means "grandparents" (and refers to both the grandfather and grandmother), like in English. When we want to say "grandparents" we use the word for "grandfather" (παππούς/ pappous), but in plural form (παππούδες/ pappoudes). So it would be "Κατοικώ με τους παππούδες μου."/ "Katoiko me tous pappoudes mou." (I live with my grandfathers. -meaning grandparents). We don't even realize it. In our minds it means grandparents. It blew my mind, as a Greek, when I noticed! (I would guess that a gender neutral word for grandparents exists in Ancient Greek, but I am not aware of it). I know that you like language fun facts Metatron. I hope you enjoyed it, if, in fact, you see it. (Also, even though I'm Greek, I'm open to being wrong in relation to facts about my language. If a word exists and you know about it, please let me know).
I study ancient greek, and I don't know of any gender neutral word for grandparents. I don't know "grandmother" either, only ὁ πάππος (the grandfather". From what I've seen, the convention is usually to use masculine for plurals, like using οἱ παῖδες (masculine nominative plural) for "the children"
We actually do have a word for " grandparents " in Greek. the word is: "Προγονοι". In modern Greek however we use that word to refer to "ancestors" and not specifically for grandparents, but that is a gender-neutral word ....
Olympias was probably the most famous, as she was constantly talked everywhere, Aspasia the wife of Pericles was also extremely famous, Sapfo was famous but she is probably more famous now than then. Artemisia was also very famous as she was a queen of her people and also mentioned in Hiroddotus. Gorgo was famous but not in their league.
I'm not sure if I would choose Sappho for the most famous Greek woman, but Gorgo wouldn't even come close to mind, so I'm with her on that one. By the way I really loved pretty much all her responses while watching this couple days back, so I'm happy to see you reacting to this video.
I remember reading that at least at one particular point in the classical era that it was illegal for girls in Athens to marry before age 17 and in Sparta illegal to marry before age 19. People knew that girls getting pregnant to early were more likely to die from complications of childbirth.
Even later people were horrified that Margaret Beaufort gave birth at 13 for example, and such a traumatic birth she never conceived again. Even when very young girls were married, it was often in name only for that reason. Childbirth is still a major killer
People nowadays forget that just because a marriage was arranged for an alliance didn’t mean the couple lived together and consummated the marriage right away. They also judge it based on the age of first menstruation, which occurs FAR younger now than it used to.
@ The age of first menstruation is not much different for the average person now as it was for the wealthiest elites in antiquity, but poor girls in the past experienced menarche years later. The hormone changes that trigger puberty for girls depend heavily on how much body fat she has. For most of human history, only the very rich could afford to be obese and the poor were smaller due to malnutrition.
@@magister343 Yep its telling that most of the records we have of extremely obese people, Henry 8th being the obvious example, were extremely wealthy and had more access to food than most of his subjects could have dreamt of
@@magister343 Even the elite back then were shorter than the average person in developed countries today which suggests that even they were a little malnourished and hence probably reached puberty a little later than today.
I heard about Sappho in my teenage years. Did not hear Gorgo until today. Even in Ephesus Roman home remnants there is a hall named "9 Muses" and Sappho is also painted besides them. That is huge. She was always admired.
I would say the same. She, Sappho, was brought up in 9th grade as an example in history/literature/language, that is age 15-16, last year of basic school, then again in the gymnasium (high school) as an example of early poetry. Gorgo was never mentioned, I have read and heard of her much later bc of personal interest. We did not learn much about the difference in thebpower of women in Athen and Sparta either, more that Athen was an early not very democratic democracy, where women and slaves had no power while in Sparta girls did sports. Nothing about Gorgo saying anything.
Athens was a direct democracy with ALL citizens voting. In NO ancient civilization could women or slaves vote. There were peoples where women did have rights and even matriarchies but they mostly isolated. Notably some Native American peoples honored women and some areas of authority were largely controlled by women. But those peoples were very primitive technologically being stone aged. In time they were not ancient. Some, who did not give women rights, were advanced in agriculture and astronomy, which implies mathematics. All societies without power sources depended on slavery for labor. ALL. Some slaves such as Hebrew and Roman slaves had rights but none had political power.
Also you hear that we can be friends with Turks but doesn't exist in reality. Also you learn that Pasok and Nea Democratic saved Greece but today you see exactly the opposite. For sure you didn't learn about the great Pavlos Melas. So don't tell me what they teach to that bordelos the Greek schools.
Maybe my compatriot Greek women could answer whether they would want to be involved hands on in wars. Contrary to popular belief, mainly in America, women prefer to be safe, and so do most men.
Yeah why do we even need wars. At least we had need of hunting and predetors that cause trouble for us now none of these are legit issues now. Lands do not even make money now,just resouces in it.
When I hear any of them complaining about "rights", I make sure to remind them that they get theirs for free while I had to spend a year in Cyprus and have my name in the reserve lists for the draft.
Trust me, this pampered woman would not wish to be sent into battle at the front lines. Just imagine asking women to fight in WWI and WWII-no sane woman would want to go there. She is a feminist who believes that the most natural obligation-marriage and having children-is bad and disrespectful. Ridiculous.
Sappho and Cleopatra (even though her link to Ancient Greece would be slightly weaker.) are definitely more known than Gorgo! My personal favorite is Aspasia btw
Had never heard the name Gorgo before. I was getting ready to look it up but didn't even know how to spell it. Both Sappho and Cleopatra have made it into pop culture and in texts books for some high school level education.
Sappho is known because she was from Lesbos and considered homosexual, not for her poetry. How many people in Europe and America can read her poetry as written in her form of Greek?
not the first video of yours that I watched but I am totally won over by the amount of differentiation that you put into this discourse about ancient practices, if only by proxy, with another subject matter expert. Very much grounded, respectful but standing your ground until convinced otherwise. That said, your reaction to people butchering, in the worst way possible, the cuisine of your people deeply resonated with me (and made me laugh tears). Subscribed
Yes but when she’s asked for the most famous I thinks it’s meant more generally not academically. On average unless you’re interested in the subject I think you’d be more likely to know Sappho over Gorgo.
Possibly because I'm way older than you, i agree with her about the most famous ancient Greek woman. I was a STEM student in the 60s; i didn't become obsessed with history until my 50s. However, literature was a requirement of ANY degree, therefore i heard of Sapho.
Since the "most famous" is a subjective opinion, while I know who Gorgo was, and Sappho, all I can say is they were both famous. But Sappho for what she did, not for her husband and a couple of quotes.
There isn’t anything wrong with hoping a daughter will get married and raise a family. The issue is when this is the ONLY path seen to be open to her. You fail to recognise this distinction.
@@tanya2660Right, and not every male, or even close to, will do something demanding and sacrificial with their lives. So why is it expected for a woman to? I really don't follow the logic that women should be treated as subhumans, and when we protest, are told that we aren't sentient enough to understand who we are or what we are asking for. Yes, we do. I do understand that for some people, it's simply more satisfying to pretend to be the emperor. I 'get it' lol
As for the most famous woman, I didn't know Gorgo. Saphos was an appropriate pick in my opinion outside of any mythic Greek figures. Depending on how you consider her, Helen probably takes the top spot in the "Hellenic Republic"
"How much more rent do i have to pay for just nine months of stay?" Alexander III after receiving a letter from Olympias complaining about Antipater's dealings in Greece (Olympias was a notorious schemer).
One woman who did fight in a war was the Queen of Halicarnassus, Artemisia I. She commanded a ship during the battle of Salamis (on the Persian side), and also took part in strategy meetings with Xerxes. That's according to Herodotus, who mentioned her by name several times.
7:09 I think more people heave heard of Sappho. If you ask people who Gorgo was, more will think she was a creature in a monster film than will think she was a woman of Sparta.
@@cp1cupcake True, but I knew her before 300 movie. To be honest, she was the only Greek women I knew, if you don't count Myths. Medusa, Pandora, Helen of Troy, Circe, Penelope, Calypso just to name few.
18:00 I totally agree Metatron, the traditional view of motherhood still deserves appreciation and recognition in our society. I balanced view of this, like Honor explaining the social recognition and status women with children could receive in that society, could help our modern society understand that world better.
"Honor, social recognition, status recived in society" Note the last word you used there "society". In the absence of a society, who will appraise value to femininity and motherhood?
Perhaps the Greek women did not take part in politics but we had women scientists...also women had their own athletic events...Diotima, whom Plato referred to in his "Symposium", wrote that she was a wise woman and teacher of Socrates (469-399 BC)...AGLAONIKI: referred to by Plutarch as Aganiki (5th century BC), she was an ancient Greek astronomer (chronologically the first female astronomer of ancient Greece)...DEINO: Woman of Brontinus. Student and mother-in-law of Pythagoras, connoisseur of numerology. Study the missing numbers....and so many more...also the existence of women's competitions in ancient Olympia is one of history's best kept secrets! And yet, their existence is documented beyond any doubt. After all, women's sports were widespread in many parts of ancient Greece: in "Minoan" Crete, in Sparta and Delphi, in Chios, and even in Attica...
I think this shows the problem of trying to compare different cultures in history. For example if women were “oppressed” because they were expected to have families, then men were oppressed because they were expected to fight wars. Also it’s not like you could vote just because you were a male, you had to have a certain social status and fulfill obligations, you couldn’t be some random shepherd or servant for example, and you’d be expected to participate in military life as well (which requires enough wealth to afford weaponry, armor and time to train). Also voting in general is not really comparable because you’re part of a unified culture, you’d never be faced with political issues like prohibition or abortion, it’s more about who to go to war with and how to fund it. And unless you were a woman with no family, even the people voting for you would have your interests in mind because they care about you. If you were some random woman with no family or connections then you’d probably be a lower class person (foreigner, slave, etc) and not be better off than any men of your status.
Fun fact: in some parts of Switzerland women gained the right to vote only 30 years ago. They did, because they were fed up with the men taking decisions against their wives benefits and wanted to have rights like being allowed to work without needing permission from their husbands. Your point if view comes from a privileged position, but aristocrats used the same argument as you: the farmers don't need to have any political power, because their lords take decisions having in mind the interest of their people, while sending their people into stupid, unnecessary wars.
The thing is, since women in noble families/the royal family could have power because of the influence they could have on the men, couldn't the same apply for the women in Athens, despite them not being able to vote themselves? Let us not forget, women didn't get the vote simply because they overpowered the men, but because they had men who cared about the women in their lives that helped and supported the change.
Athenian woman had no rights. They couldn't go out without a male chaperone. It was very oppressive for women. There was a quote referring to that of an Athenian asking why Sparta allowed so much freedom from their woman's in ancient sources. So we do know for a fact that women in Athens had no freedom at all. Even Roman woman had more rights than an Athenian one.
@Epsilonsama dude, the video debunks what you said. Did you even bother watching. Or reading what I said? I wasn't talking about freedom, I was talking about women influencing men from their families, royal or not. Like really, did you even bother watching the video before going for the comments?
If you're interested on the subject you should read Micheal Scott he's researched the subject of women in ancient Greece and how their role was upgraded after the Peloponnesian war
32:40 As a german: „curse you, Metatron!“ Also, really appreciate your decision to only ever react to half a video, so as to encourage going to the original channel.
25:28 That’s really interesting. In modern Greek we use the word τούτος/τούτοι for male (basically toutos/toutoi) or τούτη/τούτες for female (touti/toutes) in order to point out a person/people within our vicinity. It’s more like an alternative way of saying her/shehim/he/them/they.
@@maxstirner6143 Makes sense, Rome (which had a lot of greek influence) had conquered Spain. That said the Basques are more close to the Ancient Greeks because they were so isolated. Barcelona was called Barkeno (Barcino much later), there was possibiy a Greek colony there as well (Kallipolis, meaning Good/Nice City), Phoenician colonies were also nearby (maybe near modern Valencia) & perhaps the name Barkenon stuck from the passing armies of Hannibal. Regardless, the most important Roman cities at Iberia (modern Spain) were Tarraco & Ceasaraugusta (modern day Tarragona & Zaragoza, earlier Saragossa). Barcelona really rose in prominence by the Hebrews/Jews escaping the Visigoths, the Jews were very famous for being very successful merchants).
Because Spartan men would die in battle, more and more and more wealth fell into the hands of women. This caused the wealthiest among them to be women, and the main reason that Sparta kind of puttered out and later failed.
What nearly always gets conveniently forgotten is that Greek (wealthy owner class) women were expected to veil outside their home, though the degree of that varied. In the beginning of the Hellenistic Era, the face veil with eye holes apparently spread throughout the Hellenistic world - at the same time as women's participation in the society increased. The veiling had been around for a longer time, though, and it never quite vanished even during the Byzantine Era. One volume that explores this topic extensively is Lloyd Llewellyn-Jones' "Aphrodite's Tortoise: The Veiled Women of Ancient Greece" (2003, paperback editions at least in 2010) that has an extensive list of sources, and a wide range of pictorial sources, such as the pottery paintings, but also stone reliefs and statuary. The issue of the women's position in the Ancient Greece is a very controversial topic, and most of the research available online without university-provided access to the journal articles unfortunately appears to mostly consist of undergrad essays, which doesn't really make it easier to find reliable material instead of political manifestos - on one side of the debate. The other side, as far as the accessible material is concerned, doesn't seem to exist. I've recently delved into the history of the Antiquity quite extensively, and though I never graduated from the history department, I can claim that I know at least something on the topic, after reading a few dozen (peer-reviewed) articles and a couple of dozen monographs on the central questions, but my main interest at the moment is in the beginning of the Hellenistic Era, and in the Ptolemaic (first Satrapy, and then Kingdom of) Egypt in particular.
Oh, Metatron... "Who is the most famous Greek woman?". CLEOPATRA THE GREAT, Metatron. You should know, since you did many videos commenting her by this point.😉😆 Cleopatra is the most famous Greek woman, though she is usually linked with Egypt, so I get why she chose Sappho - I would say Saphho and Cleopatra are both valid candidates to this title. None heard about Gorgo except history buffs. I bet from even those who watched 300, some 2/3 is not remembering what are names of characters. And Herodotus did name other women than Gorgo: he named Rhodopis, lover of Sappho's brother, and - if we gonna count legendary characters - Helen of Troy and Nitocris (probably fictional female Pharaoh of Egypt).
My brother in pedantry, my weeabro in arms, I think she is answering it like that because it was presented that the questions are "most searched on the internet" - answers that contextualize it for the ones who searched in the internet. Thank you for the video!
Greek here. Sorry to disappoint you metatron but indeed Sapho is considered more popular than Gorgo, and for a reason of course. Another pretty well known one is of course Aspasia and a solid runner up is Olympiada (Olympias as mentioned in the video). Another one that could even be considered more popular is of course Cleopatra too. Not belonging to the classical ancient greek world per se, but an ancient greek woman nevertheless.
Yes, I would name Cleopatra too. But Cleopatra defined herself as Egyptian and resided in Egypt, so I can understand why most people - even classicist - may not think immiediately about her. Sappho is still good answer. She is certainly more famous than Gorgo 😆😆
I mean she was Hellenic or a 9th generation greek immigrant. In which case we would have to call John F. Kennedy Irish, Charlagmagne would be from a germanic tribe. It gets a bit silly i think.
@Pawsk There was no such thing as 'Greece'. Egypt was one of he Greek kingdom. It's like saying Kennedy was part of the Anglo-Saxon world. Indeed he was.
@@danielefabbro822 dude, no! The horses were made in Alexandria, then they were moved to Constantinople, then they were robbed by the Venetians, then they were robbed by Napoleon and finaly they were robbed back to Venice.
@@Sp-d2i from Wikipedia: The sculptures date from classical antiquity. Many scholars believe they were sculpted in the 2nd or 3rd century AD, noting similarities to the Equestrian Statue of Marcus Aurelius in Rome (c. 175 AD).[1] But some say the evident technical expertise and naturalistic rendering of the animals suggest they were made in Classical Greece of the 5th and 4th centuries BC.[2] In light of their short backs and long legs, it has been argued that they were originally situated above the eye line,[3] probably created to top a triumphal arch or some other grand building. Perhaps commissioned by the Emperor Septimus Severus, they may originally have been made for the Eastern capital of Constantinople, where they were long displayed.[3
On the video of different political hierarchies I'd love such a video. Historical figures viewed a lot of what we talk about now very differently, and our use of language has spawned from experiences and influence they didn't have.
I think it depends on whether you're asking who was the most famous ancient Greek woman in antiquity, i.e. among ancient Greeks, or who is the most famous ancient Greek woman today. Cause if it's the latter, the answer would almost certainly have to be Cleopatra VII (I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of people today do not know who Gorgo is).
Probably others from Alexandria who were mathematicians during the Hellenistic Age. But obviously during the Roman era Cleopatra stands the test of time. In Greek Mythology there are many Penelope, the goddesses, Helen of Troy would stand out the most since the Iliad was literally like the bible.
@billm3210 I can't think of any female Alexandrian mathematicians from the Hellenistic age. The only one who comes to mind is Hypatia and she lived centuries after the end of the Hellenistic era. Cleopatra still falls within the Hellenistic era, btw. (In fact, her death marks the end of the era.) But before her, there were certainly other Ptolemaic queens who were quite well-known. Berenike II and Arsinoe II, for example, were extremely popular in Egypt and were worshipped as goddesses long after their deaths. Some royal mistresses were also quite well-known. For example, Bilistiche, a mistress of Ptolemy II, won an Olympic chariot race (as did several Ptolemaic queens) and was deified by the king after her death. And there were also female actors in Hellenistic Alexandria (contrary to ancient Greek convention) and presumably some of them would have been well-known at the time, as well as. (The only one who comes to my mind, though, is Myrtion and the main reason her name is preserved is that she, too, was a mistress of Ptolemy II.) Another female artist from Hellenistic Alexandria is Anaxandra, who was apparently an accomplished painter in the 3rd century BCE. (Painting was often considered the highest form of art in ancient Greek culture.)
Regarding the Greek city state standing united against none Greek enemies, that reminds me of the Celts who, Gaul and Caesar's Gallic War come to mind, were quite similar. To a far lesser degree my native Tyrol still carries a bit of that legacy, though it has softened quite bit during the last few decades but it used to be like this: within a village the hamlets were bashing each others' heads in, within a valley the villages were bashing each others' heads in, and within Tyrol the valleys were bashing each others' heads in, but woe to anybody from the outside who wants to mess with the Tyrolians. Than you get Napoleon (or really the Bavarians) and 1809. PS In my opinion the Scottish Clans also have quite a few similarities with the Roman Gentes
The Gauls werent unified, they were essentially tribes, sometimes they fought with each other, some were even rivals hated enemies. The Celts were a bit more unified, a big loose alliance. More importantly, they were a lot of distinictions between them. Generally speaking, the Southern Celts had a lot of different customs than the Northern Gauls. The Southern Gauls were influenced first by the Greek way of life (a lot of Greek colonies like Massailles, Nice and so on), then influenced by the Romans later as well. The Northern Gauls had more relations with the Germanic tribes and they even worshipped a different god (Cernunnos), they were ruled by druids & they even performed human sacrifices. One of the strongest tribes were the Arverni. An Arverni king tried to unite (really subjugate) the northern Gauls, but he was deposed by the other northern tribes who wanted autonomy. The Middle Gauls (primarily the Arverni tribe) were more like the Southern Gauls in customs (but they had druids as well), but farther from the influence of Greece/Rome. Even then, they frequently exchanged oaths of fealty to the Romans, even before the age of Ceasar & they were honored as Brothers of the Romans. They were hated enemies of the Seine tribe (from the river Seine , the original name is Sicuana in Celtic, Σηκουανας in Greek, it means holy river in Celtic) & ofcourse they teamed up with the Romans against them. The Arverni tribe became the first Gallic tribe that had the right of election in the Roman Senate (Jus Honorus).
18:00 I had to add this. Nobody seems to talk about how men have always been expected to provide stability and security for himself. Then he is expected to find a wife and give that to her while disregarding his own safety should the need arise.
@@Pawsk It's a new idea, making woman have an income. And women are expected to give up security for their children, but not for their husband's. Children are not expected to do either, but the age of a child does change with culture and time.
@@Pawsk depends on the time period, we have had a lot more widowed women, throughout history, than widowed men or orphaned children. More often we see prostitution and self servitude than anything
8:40 This here is an example of when Metatron's pedantry gets in the way of the point. "Oppressive to the majority of people that lived there" is not an untrue statement. The vast majority of people that lived within Athens were slaves and people who had no rights. By definition of "oppressive" that's what it was. Whether or not the people were dissatisfied with that oppression is a different matter and Metatron is asserting that people of the time weren't dissatisfied with that oppression (which frankly I don't agree with, I mean if you're a slave, while you might not know a better life, you certainly aren't happy or thrilled at your situation, that's just common sense. It doesn't matter if other places had it worse. That "what-about-ism" logic never is a justifiable argument. What is bad is bad, even if there are varying levels of bad). Metatron is inserting a narrative that the History Hit person isn't suggesting. And as far as it being "advanced", again how does that *disapprove* the assertion that it was oppressive. Because they had an advanced legal code and political doctrine doesn't make oppressive policy less oppressive. Oppressive does not automatically mean = evil or bad. It means those on top oppress those below. Or more simply put, it means those with power prevent others from acting freely, which is how their system worked for anybody but acknowledged citizens of Athens.
@@maxstirner6143 They *did* revolt. Many times throughout history. Dealing with slave revolts has been a thing since slavery has been a thing. That also isn't relevant to the statement, "Oppressive to the majority of people who lived there". Whether they were ok with the situation or not, they're still be oppressed.
@@pacmonster066 yeah, those revolts were famous because they were just a few. It is relevant because slavery as institution is old and works for a bunch of reasons, being the compliance, the biggest one. And no, being oppressed isn't like being pregnant, the SU lasted 80 yrs for a reason, minorities can't oppres the majority; even Stalin had a clique and the majority take advantage of the oppressed inside the SU, till they didnt. That's why the other non russian countries revolted and did fall before Russia did. It's always the majority who oppress till they cant. Roman slaves didnt revolt till Spartacus even when they were 3/4 of the population for the same reasons the jews didnt in the camps during the war, because among them were other inmates that were given power over their companions and had their own cliques. There were more guards than those outside the fence. Also, that's not the point, the point is that oppression has grades and it's a ladder. I mean, I can also state that even a king is oppressed by his ppl, as he has to act as a king and not a freemen, he has duties and ppl expect of him, otherwise his head will roll.
3:36 yes bro it’s so ridiculous. Paintings / sculptures of naked people 2, 3, 4000 years old. Ancient relics of history. It is what it is , no need to censor it tbh. And then you have OF models able to promote their stuff… make it make sense.
When they refer to the women as living inside the houses, it doesn't seem surprising to me, even today this kind of mentality can be found in villages. They weren't locked up obviously, they just didn't participate in society... just like today you will hardly see women in a coffee shop (kafenio) in a village. Even today, the most common are visits to neighbors' houses.
Do women preferer to live in the street? "they just didn't participate in society" this is wrong since they had children and this is literally making society.
@@arnoldvezbon6131 They probably refer to men's society which is symposiums, Olympics, theatre etc. Otherwise women had their own festivals where they gathered and they probably would meet while fetching water or washing the clothes at stream or the sea (didn't Odysseus wash up on a beach where Nausicaa and her handmaidens washed clothes), at each other houses in the women's section of the house or at the market (there are sources like Aristophanes' plays that there were women who were sellers as well as other historical written sources). Plus, I believe there were mixed festivals where they would have some interaction with men consensually or sadly, non-consensually. They would meet at weddings too and it is mentioned in some comedic plays that they could visit the countryside (perhaps if they had villas there or relatives).
Metatron, if we are talking about mythological figures the most famous Grerk woman of all time is without a doubt Helen and not Gorgo, followed by Pandora. Now if we are talking historically the Spartan queen of the same name doesn't even compete with Kleopatra VII. If we exclude the Hellenistic Era I'd say that Sppho is probably better known than Queen Gorgo.
I have a big issue with metatron judging these videos and the speakers therein for “modernizations”. I think that he is sometimes right that there are anachronistic interjections and chauvinist theories, but largely these people are trying to communicate with an unacademic (or less aware) audience and are addressing what the thoughts of those people would be. Like at 8:42 where he criticizes the speaker for saying Athens was an oppressive regime when she is clearly comparing it to modern conceptions of Athenian democracy. Overall I appreciate the consistency that metatron approaches these videos with. But, I believe that, because these videos are not academic discourse , the use of language to identify the intended audience with a more accurate picture of the past is generally fine.
Herodotus did name other women than Gorgo: he named Rhodopis, lover of Sappho's brother, and - if we gonna count legendary characters - Helen of Troy and Nitocris (probably fictional female Pharaoh of Egypt).
To be honest, I also thought about Sapho. I believe it depends on the curriculum of your studies. I studied Classics and we had one term devoted to the saphic poetry. And if you study this for a longer time, this is automatically the first thing that comes to mind.
The issue I have with Sappho is I used to work construction with a high number of lesbian women. They continually referred to one another as "Hey, Sapphic Sister!" and it became so absolutely exhausting listening to their preaching of "Entire cities of just women, not a man needed because women, proven by Sappho, don't need men to thrive and become prosperous. They simply would not shut up about it and it got so obnoxious that some of the men reported them as safety hazards due to their lack of focus on the work at hand while going off about the Lesbos Islands and Sappho the most important writers who ever lived. It was as if they were in a cult.
Sappho definitely was passionate about women women, but those lesbians were completely incorrect that she didn't need a man, as she was famous for having male lovers as well. Sappho also mentioned in her poetry to have a daughter, so she obviously made use of at least one man, if we gonna believe her poems. 😆
I do have a copy of an Open University textbook somewhere, I think (if I haven't thrown it out). It contained a Greek comedy play and it was very funny and an eye opener. The female characters were talking to each other and one in particular was quite lewd. They didn't seem to live in the same household. Amongst the topics being discussed was the practice of plucking out pubic hair!
Im kinda ashamed to admit that but I didnt know who Sapho was at all and I learned about Gorgo just from the movie 300. And yes I SHOULD be ashamed cause I grew up and live in Sparta of Greece....! At least for the Gorgo one.
When I was young - in the 1960s - I would have said Sappho was the most famous Greek woman. But now I would say Gorgo, since the Spartans and Leonidis have been in the movies.
British accent always helps! They sound smart damn it! Role of a woman mother in Sparta: Giving the shield to her son and tell him to return with it, or on it...
I teach high school World History (Renaissance to modernity) and I have to censor The David, Da Vinci's Vitruvian Man, Ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. The "covering up" actually draws more attention to it from a "naughty" perspective.
@@arnoldvezbon6131 Queen Artemisia. Fought in Xerxes' invasion of Greece on the Persian side. She was a widow and her son was underage, so she was a reigning queen as vassal of the Persian Emperor and commanded her own ships in the invasion.
To add to your comment on Athenian democracy, estimates about the participation of the Athenian populace in the political life amount to 10-15% of the population. In comparison US democracy before the civil war is estimated to involve about 6-7% of its population. Mind you that was less than 200 years ago, 2300 years after Athenian democracy.
He is right, youtube has videos that can easily be classified as pure porn, truly inappropriate and sexual, with full nudeness, yet a classical painting gets censored.
It should be someone between Aspasia, Hypatia, Sapfo, Gorgo and Olympias (for the real ones). And there were many many more fictional/legendary/divine ones.
@@ethancox9737 Historically, only the wealthiest of upperclass people could afford to eat off of Waterford type cut-glass dinnerware. Drinking out of cut-glass was consider a symbol of elite status.
@@valandil7454 According to recent survey's, less than 2% of British citizens speak with a traditional Recieved Pronounciation(RP) accent. Even among highly educated people who live and work in the Oxbridge(Oxford/Cambridge) environment, this accent is VERY rare. Much more common is what is called the 'London RP' accent, which is a less pronounced traditional accent that you can hear in many actors in Britain(Sir Ian McKellen, Sir Stephen Fry, Emma Watson, Rose Leslie, etc.)
When I was in high school one of my class mates asked the history teacher why did ancient greeks paint naked men a lot. His reply to her was that they were celebrating the beauty of the human body.
Heavily depends on your interests. Gorgo is more well known among military historians and people interested in geopolitical history (kind of obvious actually considering she was Spatan), but Sappho is more popular among those interested in culture and the arts. Though I agree Sappho is probably better known than Gorgo. Arguably, however, Cleopatra is more popular than either.
''The main role of Spartan women was still marriage and procreation'' So they respected their women quite more than we do today in our slavery-for-everyone occupied nations.
She's a feminist, she doesn't get it. She believes that the most natural obligation marrying and having kids is a bad thing and disrespectful to women. Poor woman. If her mother would've had her mindset this woman wouldn't exist in the first place. A nation can survive without feminists but not without children.
@@Randgalfit's a typical thing modern audiences forget, because we don't have the same need for women as the only ones capable of having children to do it. In ancient Greece it was expected for men to work and fight, potentially injured themselves or die for their country, which is why the political stage was ran by men. While the women due to the high percentage of child mortality and casualties of conflict needed to do what the men couldn't for the society to continue. Everyone thinks of it from a modern view where the necessities of life are completely different. Honestly in this day and age the majority of people have TOO MANY civil rights and NOT ENOUGH responsibilities so can't be expected to understand how things used to be. I'm not historian though my degrees are in Commercial Business and Legal Systems, I just love looking back and seeing how people change 🙂
@@Randgalfyeah but you’re missing the point, there is a difference in having freedom as a human being and only being seen as a tool for procreation and doing some chores.
During the height of the Athenian Empire someone asked Themistocles "who is ruling the world?" and he replied "my son because i am ruled by my wife and she is ruled by my son"
When my son got confused about why he kept laughing when I poked his ribs, yet he wanted me to stop, I simply had to tell him, "Themistocles.... And so is THESE" **pokes him in the ribs again**
I think there was a comedy about this sort of idea
The saying comes from Plutarch’s Parallel Lives: “This child”, said Themistocles, “is the most powerful ruler in Greece: for Athens rules Greece, I rule Athens, his mother rules me, and he rules his mother.” Themistocles - total troll! 😜
As a Greek, I think you mean the Athenian city state or the allied forces of Naxos
@@Trolis09090 He means the Delian League, it's just a way that most people call the ''organization'' in English.
Like how in Greece we say ''Αθηναική Ηγεμονία'' when we talk about it, at least that is how I remember it in school.
I was scared to watch this 😂Thank you for watching and for the record I do also love Gorgo, I promise!
What did you expect from his reactions? 😁
Pretty.
Those UA-cam type titles do leave you guessing! Really liked your video too, thank you for your expertise!
Also, I’d never heard of Gorgo but did know Sappho, so point in your favor there.
I loved the video you were in, very informative!
You are as wise as you are beautiful.
Ancient Greek women in mathematics...
Αίθρα - Aethra (10th - 9th century BC) daughter of the king of Troizina Pitthea and mother of Theseus, in another
capacity unknown to many. The quality of arithmetic teacher. So sacred to the beginnings of the most cerebral
science, Aethra taught arithmetic to the children of Troizina, with that complex awe-inspiring method, since
there was no zero… and the numbers were symbolically complex, as their symbols required many repetitions.
--------------------------
Πολυγνώτη - Polygnoti (7th - 6th century BC) The historian Lovon Argeios mentions Polygnotis as a companion and
student of Thalis.
A scholar of many geometric theorems, it is said (Vitruvius' testimony) that this also contributed to the
simplification of arithmetic symbols by introducing the principle of acrophony, that is, by introducing alphabetic
letters that corresponded to each in the initial letter of the name of the number. Thus, Δ, the initial of Δέκα (ΤΕΝ),
represents the number 10. X, the initial of Χίλια (Thousand), represents the number 1000 etc. According to Vitruvius,
Polygnoti formulated and first proved the proposition "Εν κύκλω η εν τω ημικυκλίω γωνία ορθή εστίν - In the circle the angle
in the hemi-circle is right angle"
---------------------------------------------
Θεμιστόκλεια - Themistoklia (6th century BC). Diogenes the Laertius scholar-writer mentions it as "Αριστόκλεια - Aristoclia
or Θεόκλεια - Theoclia. Pythagoras took most of his moral principles from the Delphic priestess Themistoclia,
who at the same time introduced him to the principles of arithmetic and geometry. According to the philosopher Aristoxenos
(4th century BC), Themistoclia taught mathematics to those of the visitors of Delphi who had the relevant appeal.
Legend has it that Themistoclia decorated the altar of Apollo with geometric shapes. According to Aristoxenos,
Pythagoras admired the knowledge and wisdom of Themistoclia, a fact that prompted him to accept women later in his School.
-------------------------------
Μελίσσα - Melissa (6th century BC). Pupil of Pythagoras. He was involved in the construction of regular polygons. Lovon Argeios
writes about an unknown work of hers: "Ο Κύκλος Φυσίν - η Μελίσσα - Των Εγγραφομένων Πολυγώνων Απάντων Εστί".The circle
is always the basis of the written polygons" or so.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Τυμίχα - Tymicha (6th century BC). The Thymiha wife of Crotonian Millios was (according to Diogenes Laertius) a Spartan,
born in Croton. From a very early age he became a member of the Pythagorean community. Iamblichus mentions a book
about "friend numbers". After the destruction of the school by the Democrats of Croton, Tymicha took refuge in
Syracuse. The tyrant of Syracuse, Dionysios, demanded that Tymicha reveal to him the secrets of the Pythagorean
teaching for a great reward. She flatly refused and even cut her tongue with her teeth and spat in Dionysius' face.
This fact is reported by Hippobotus and Neanthis.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Βιτάλη - Vitali or Vistala(6th - 5th century BC). Vitali daughter of Damos and granddaughter of Pythagoras.
Expert in Pythagorean mathematics. Before Pythagoras died, he entrusted her with the "memoirs", that is, the philosophical
texts of her father.
----------------------------------------------------------
Πανδροσίων ή Πάνδροσος - Pandrosion or Pandrossos (4th century AD). Alexandrian geometer, probably a student of Pappos, who dedicates to her
the third book of the "Synagogue". Pandrosion divides geometric problems into three categories:"
Three genera are of the problems in Geometry and these, levels are called, and the other linear ones"
------------------------
Πυθαϊς - Pythais PYTHAUS (2nd century BC). Geometer, daughter of the mathematician Zenodoros.
-------------------------------------------
Αξιόθεα - Axiothea (4th century BC). She is also a student, like Lasthenia, of Plato's academy.
He came to Athens from the Peloponnesian city of Fliounda. He showed a special interest in mathematics
and natural philosophy. He later taught these sciences in Corinth and Athens.
-------------------------------------------------
Περικτιόνη - Periktioni (5th century BC). Pythagorean philosopher, writer and mathematician. Various sources identify
her with Perictioni, Plato's mother and Critius' daughter. The mathematician, like the philosopher Plato,
owes his first acquaintance with mathematics and philosophy to Periction.
--------------------------
Διοτίμα - Diotima from Mantineia (6th-5th century BC). In Plato's "Symposium", Socrates refers to the Teacher of Diotima,
a priestess in Mantineia, who was a Pythagorean and a connoisseur of Pythagorean numerology. According to Xenophon,
Diotima had no difficulty in understanding the most difficult geometric theorems.
-------------------------------
Iamblichos in his work "On Pythagorean Life", saved the names of seventeen Pythagorean women who were connoisseurs
of Pythagorean philosophy and Pythagorean mathematics. We have already mentioned some of them. The rest:
Ρυνδακώ - Rynthako
Οκκελώ - Okkelo
Χειλωνίς - chilonis
Κρατησίκλεια - Kratisiklia
Λασθένια - Lasthenia
Αβροτέλεια - Avrotelia
Εχεκράτεια - Ehekratia
Θεανώ - Theano
Τυρσηνίς - Tyrsinis
Πεισιρρόδη - Pisirrodi
Θεαδούσα - Theathousa
Βοιώ - Voto
Βαβέλυκα - Vavelyka
Κλεαίχμα - Cleaihma
Νισθαιαδούσα - Nistheathousa
Νικαρέτη - Nikareti from Corinth
Thanks
Wonderful bit of research! Did you do a school or college paper on this?
Πες τους να κάνουν επείγοντος μετάφραση τα βιβλία της τζιροπουλου και τόσων άλλων σπουδαίων είναι επιτακτική ανάγκη γιατί δεν ξέρουν που τους πάνε τα τέσσερα... Έχεις δίκιο φυσικά σε αυτό που έχεις αναρτήσει...
Yea but we're talking about who's most famous. What gets Googled more? Greek lesbians or that
Minor correction: Theseus was the mythological hero who killed the Minotaur and delivered Athens from the MINOAN yoke! So his mother and thus himself couldn't have been born in the 10th-9th century BC !! Given that the Minoan civilization lasted as an independent culture till about 1450 BC - when it was invaded and dominated by the mainland Mycenaean Greeks -, he most definitely is supposed to have lived BEFORE that date, during the reign of the legendary King Minos of Knossos! And since Minos supposedly reigned in Crete during the apex of Minoan power, Theseus must have lived BEFORE even the eruption of the Thera ( modern island of Santorini) volcano, which created the titanic tsunami that destroyed the major Minoan cities in Crete and severely weakened the Minoans! According to geologists and archaeologists , this happened sometime in the 17th century BC!! So this is the era when Theseus ( and consequently his mother...) lived...
Hm. Wouldn't the most famous ancient Greek woman be Cleopatra VII? Surely her name and story is known by far more than any other? I could be wrong tho.
I agree. I guess a lot of people forget that she her family was greek….?
Exactly what I said!
Helena was more beautiful than the others.
Yes, my thoughts exactlly!!!! ❤🔥❤🔥❤🔥
@@ulrikjensen6841 Helen is the most famous Greek mythological mortal woman, Cleopatra the Great is the the most famous historical Greek woman 😊
The idea that the average person in the street would know of either Gorgo or Sapho made me laugh.
I think "Cleopatra" when I think of a famous Greek person
If you said “the wife of Leonidas” then yeah I would know who she is
This happens with all types of fandom of course, but a lot of gamers seem to overestimate the popularity of the pastime. Civilization VI sold the most copies of any Civ game at 11 million. Total for the entire series is under 30 million. A lot of those copies were probably never played or never saw Gorgo. But because Metatron is invested in the game and interacts with a lot of other people who are also invested in it, he assumes that everyone knows Gorgo from Civ. I'd bet that if you asked the average person about Gorgo they'd say "You mean Medusa, she was a gorgon, right?"
@@cmlemmus494I've never played that game, but i know who Gorgo is, and I'mpretty sure i know her in the same way Metatron knows her, which is not through gaming. I read about her in a book. Don't forget that Metetron was a teacher long before he was streaming games and making youtube videos.
Misread the title as "classist" and was very confused about why she seemed to be so reasonable
Any time he covers a Wired video I always read the title as WEIRD linguist blows my mind! or something of the sort
Same for both lol
That’s what this age of baiting outrage trickery a.i. Clickbait Titles does with our brain.......
Slowly poisoning us into ignorance...
Something in that direction I spitball guessing a bit! 🤨🙃
I looked into her and I see why they said that. After getting her first-class degree at Oxford in 2019, she did two master's degrees: one in Greek and Roman history at Oxford and one in Art History (specifically the Venetian Renaissance) at Courtauld Institute of Art. She's now back at Oxford working on a doctorate with a focus on political sex scandals in Ancient Rome. (I look forward to any future videos on that topic!) But you can't put all that on a video tag. ;)
I’d be up for an ancient government video. If nothing else, wanna know the difference between an ancient tyranny vs a modern dictatorship, if anything.
Greeks divided the political arena in monarchy/tyrant, aristocracy/oligarchy and democracy/ochlocracy. Dictator is a middle road of monarchy/tyranny
@@maxstirner6143 I think its more correct to say dictator in a modern usage is basically the same as Tyrant.
I dont remember anyone using dictator in anything but a negative tone.
@Pawsk fair. But the fact the pol doesn't know the meaning doesn't make it right. A dictator can be good or bad. It's just a position. The Russian and Greek adjacent world use the word autocrator.
@@maxstirner6143 well i dont agree that a dictator is simply a “position” or rather form of government. A king would be a dictator, but we dont refer to kings of the past as dictators but unless they were particularly bad.
The meaning of the word isnt fixed by anything other than our use, and to me our use is quite a lot closer to Tyrant than to “sole ruler”.
Just like the Greeks we load our words, and dictator in modern times is negatively loaded. Just like King was negatively loaded to the romans. Or tyrant in greece.
If we look at “dictators” who are looked at somewhat positively like Lee Kuan Yew, then often they will be called statesmen instead.
@@Pawsk 1 dictator is a roman position inside the SPQR, it ended being used by the emperors to gather power
2 when you're thinking bout kings, you're thinking XVIII cent kings, autocrats; not XI kings that needed their feudal minions to control the country
3 you think bad of dictators as you have the republican mentality
4 as i said, the fact that non ilustrated ppl doesnt know the real meaning, doesnt mean that those who have studies, have to also use the word in a bad way. The fact that we have studies, means we must use the word correctly
I would argue Aspasia was the most famous and influential woman in ancient Greece, woman of Periklis, the most respected historical figure of the time, a woman that loved philosophy and involved herself in the political affairs. Socrates himself mentions her as an influence in his rhetoric, definetely a woman to remember
As a greek woman I am loving a non biased historic video on ancient greek women , not trying to push narratives, just history
Having grown up in Athens, with school history heavily focusing on the Classical Age to the detriment of the Hellenistic and Archaic, I'd say most people around here would probably answer the same.
Γιατί είσαι Ελληνίδα και ξερεις ιστορία. Ολα αυτά που ακούμε εδώ είναι κοτσάνες
People often view Athens as oppressive because they judge the past by the standards of the present.
Moreover, they fail to view the culture of Athens relative to other nations of that time.
Yup. Presentism at its best.
@theguyfromsaturn I ike to bring it into more recent history then apply something of a logorhythmic perspective.
Think 100 years in the past and 100 years in the future.
Ask someone what was widely considered socially acceptable or even proper in 1925 that would be considered unacceptable in 2025.
Next, ask them to think on what socially acceptable or even proper cultural norms in 2025 might be considered unacceptable in 2125.
Judging the past by the standards of the present leaves people in the present open to equally harsh future judgement.
but it was oppressive, for like more than half of the city as the rest were slaves and free women.
@@osmaniesquijarosa4308half of the Athenian male population was free which was easily the most of any Greek city state, and woman still had more rights in Athens then most Greek societies. Sparta meanwhile, had 10% of its male population as citizens, the rest were slaves. So in exchange for doing that, woman could own land temporarily for their husbands if they were unable to tend to it, had some combat training (not soldiers but enough to aid in a siege of the city itself), ancient society cannot be viewed from a fully modern viewpoint since no one in America is enslaved, compared to ancient Athens which still had half of its male population acting as slaves, or a bit less than half actually since a lot of males weren’t slaves or citizens in Athens at least, which still makes it a beacon of democracy compared to everywhere else at the time.
@ pretty sure not being able to vote in a democracy for being a women or a slave is the objective definition of political oppression. I'm sorry but this isn't a matter of imparting modern views to the past, it's just plain objectivity, people back then knew it was oppressive against those excluded, they just didn't give a shit and that's fine, it was par for the times.
9:30 I think she was more talking about it from a modern perspective, because a lot of people think of it like a modern democracy or better so it’s good to debunk that.
Yeah, it is very important to look at history with histories eyes.
1 in 4 (a bit more or less depending on the source) inhabitants of Athens were slaves. The definition for slave being: "a person who is forced to work for and obey another and is considered to be their property". No matter the period, there is no doubt that ancient Athens was an oppressive state. And pretending that any state that practiced slavery was less oppressive than other states because "at least it was not as bad as X" is apologistic
@MJ-ki5pd so everyone, past present and future?
#taxation is theft...
welcome to the new wave of my generation looking at everything through the western centric lens, and if you don't view it in that lens you are a tradionalist and a bigot.
@ I'm not sure I understand what you mean
New to your channel and I am thoroughly enjoying your content. I appreciate your respect for the person while disagreeing with their opinion and for expanding on why you disagree.
Welcome aboard and thanks!
I've never heard of Gorgo but definitely heard of Sappho, and imho her arguments about how Sappho has become part of the modern lexicon trounce any 'mention by Herodotus'.
I'd think Gorgo is relatively well known just because of 300.
@@cp1cupcake Lena Headey I remember, her character's name not so much.
Wish she would keep her hands still; it's very disturbing especially with sticky fingers at the same time - look like claws.
I'd heard of Sappho but not Gorgo. I do love literature and I did take ancient Greek in school, so maybe she came up in literature at some point, but I don't recall Gorgo at all. And I've watched 300 a dozen times because Gerard Butler shirtless.
Same
I've actually read her book on Messalina. I highly recommend it, her writing is very good, she also raises some very interesting points about one of the most blackened women of Ancient Rome, whilst also not dismissing the ancient sources just because they are hostile.
I discovered your channels recently and it feels like home. Like having interesting conversations with a good friend on subjects of mutual interest, extremely familiar ! Love from Athens ,Greece
25:10 In Modern Greek (a gendered language as well), we don't have a gender neutral word that means "grandparents" (and refers to both the grandfather and grandmother), like in English. When we want to say "grandparents" we use the word for "grandfather" (παππούς/ pappous), but in plural form (παππούδες/ pappoudes). So it would be "Κατοικώ με τους παππούδες μου."/ "Katoiko me tous pappoudes mou." (I live with my grandfathers. -meaning grandparents).
We don't even realize it. In our minds it means grandparents. It blew my mind, as a Greek, when I noticed! (I would guess that a gender neutral word for grandparents exists in Ancient Greek, but I am not aware of it).
I know that you like language fun facts Metatron. I hope you enjoyed it, if, in fact, you see it. (Also, even though I'm Greek, I'm open to being wrong in relation to facts about my language. If a word exists and you know about it, please let me know).
I study ancient greek, and I don't know of any gender neutral word for grandparents. I don't know "grandmother" either, only ὁ πάππος (the grandfather". From what I've seen, the convention is usually to use masculine for plurals, like using οἱ παῖδες (masculine nominative plural) for "the children"
It's the same in almost every Indo-European language. Something, something, nomadic herders weren't all too keen on gender equality.
@@ProbeScout You are right about the word for children. I hadn't made the correlation up until now. Interesting.
@@Just_some_guy_1 That's fascinating!
We actually do have a word for " grandparents " in Greek. the word is: "Προγονοι". In modern Greek however we use that word to refer to "ancestors" and not specifically for grandparents, but that is a gender-neutral word ....
Olympias was probably the most famous, as she was constantly talked everywhere, Aspasia the wife of Pericles was also extremely famous, Sapfo was famous but she is probably more famous now than then. Artemisia was also very famous as she was a queen of her people and also mentioned in Hiroddotus. Gorgo was famous but not in their league.
Pharaoh Cleopatra the Great is most famous 😉
The most famous is Helen of Troy ... We have films about her deeds and consequences. The others? 0 films.
@ Helen is famous, but mythical. Sappho is famous in art.
Nice to see Metatron doing one of these with someone competent for a change.
I'm not sure if I would choose Sappho for the most famous Greek woman, but Gorgo wouldn't even come close to mind, so I'm with her on that one. By the way I really loved pretty much all her responses while watching this couple days back, so I'm happy to see you reacting to this video.
Also definitely agree on the Minoan women attire lmao.
you might know Gorgo as "Medusa".
@MusicSilence mate that's a completely different character.
@@professor_krakenMedusa was a Γοργόνα so it doesn't matter but do you know which Gorgo was he referring to?
@@YukiNoShinku wife of Leonidas
I especially love it when you make videos about ancient Greece.
I remember reading that at least at one particular point in the classical era that it was illegal for girls in Athens to marry before age 17 and in Sparta illegal to marry before age 19. People knew that girls getting pregnant to early were more likely to die from complications of childbirth.
Even later people were horrified that Margaret Beaufort gave birth at 13 for example, and such a traumatic birth she never conceived again. Even when very young girls were married, it was often in name only for that reason. Childbirth is still a major killer
People nowadays forget that just because a marriage was arranged for an alliance didn’t mean the couple lived together and consummated the marriage right away. They also judge it based on the age of first menstruation, which occurs FAR younger now than it used to.
@ The age of first menstruation is not much different for the average person now as it was for the wealthiest elites in antiquity, but poor girls in the past experienced menarche years later. The hormone changes that trigger puberty for girls depend heavily on how much body fat she has. For most of human history, only the very rich could afford to be obese and the poor were smaller due to malnutrition.
@@magister343 Yep its telling that most of the records we have of extremely obese people, Henry 8th being the obvious example, were extremely wealthy and had more access to food than most of his subjects could have dreamt of
@@magister343 Even the elite back then were shorter than the average person in developed countries today which suggests that even they were a little malnourished and hence probably reached puberty a little later than today.
I heard about Sappho in my teenage years. Did not hear Gorgo until today. Even in Ephesus Roman home remnants there is a hall named "9 Muses" and Sappho is also painted besides them. That is huge. She was always admired.
I would say the same. She, Sappho, was brought up in 9th grade as an example in history/literature/language, that is age 15-16, last year of basic school, then again in the gymnasium (high school) as an example of early poetry.
Gorgo was never mentioned, I have read and heard of her much later bc of personal interest. We did not learn much about the difference in thebpower of women in Athen and Sparta either, more that Athen was an early not very democratic democracy, where women and slaves had no power while in Sparta girls did sports. Nothing about Gorgo saying anything.
Athens was a direct democracy with ALL citizens voting.
In NO ancient civilization could women or slaves vote.
There were peoples where women did have rights and even matriarchies but they mostly isolated. Notably some Native American peoples honored women and some areas of authority were largely controlled by women. But those peoples were very primitive technologically being stone aged. In time they were not ancient. Some, who did not give women rights, were advanced in agriculture and astronomy, which implies mathematics.
All societies without power sources depended on slavery for labor. ALL. Some slaves such as Hebrew and Roman slaves had rights but none had political power.
@@MarkHorton-n3t wtf are you yapping about who asked lmao
Same- but perhaps in Italy (for whatever reason) Gorgo is more famous.
Also you hear that we can be friends with Turks but doesn't exist in reality. Also you learn that Pasok and Nea Democratic saved Greece but today you see exactly the opposite. For sure you didn't learn about the great Pavlos Melas.
So don't tell me what they teach to that bordelos the Greek schools.
Maybe my compatriot Greek women could answer whether they would want to be involved hands on in wars. Contrary to popular belief, mainly in America, women prefer to be safe, and so do most men.
Well, women have voted in a large majority for open borders the last 60 years or so....and now no one is safe.
Yeah why do we even need wars. At least we had need of hunting and predetors that cause trouble for us now none of these are legit issues now. Lands do not even make money now,just resouces in it.
When I hear any of them complaining about "rights", I make sure to remind them that they get theirs for free while I had to spend a year in Cyprus and have my name in the reserve lists for the draft.
Trust me, this pampered woman would not wish to be sent into battle at the front lines. Just imagine asking women to fight in WWI and WWII-no sane woman would want to go there. She is a feminist who believes that the most natural obligation-marriage and having children-is bad and disrespectful. Ridiculous.
We would prefer there is no war. Can we stop making them?
Sappho and Cleopatra (even though her link to Ancient Greece would be slightly weaker.) are definitely more known than Gorgo!
My personal favorite is Aspasia btw
Had never heard the name Gorgo before. I was getting ready to look it up but didn't even know how to spell it. Both Sappho and Cleopatra have made it into pop culture and in texts books for some high school level education.
Yep, I had no idea who Gorgo was
Remember Napoleon ZERVAS your grandpa 🇬🇷---->🇦🇱🏃🇦🇱🏃🚣🏃🇦🇱 you turcalbanian shepperd
@ Your comment is laughable, this is not the space for it at all 🤣
Sappho is known because she was from Lesbos and considered homosexual, not for her poetry. How many people in Europe and America can read her poetry as written in her form of Greek?
not the first video of yours that I watched but I am totally won over by the amount of differentiation that you put into this discourse about ancient practices, if only by proxy, with another subject matter expert. Very much grounded, respectful but standing your ground until convinced otherwise.
That said, your reaction to people butchering, in the worst way possible, the cuisine of your people deeply resonated with me (and made me laugh tears). Subscribed
Gorgo is not the only woman named by Herotodus: off the top of my head there is also Phye (Histories 1.60.4)
Good catch. I only recalled Artemisia.
She's the only _Spartan_ woman named by Herodotus.
Yes but when she’s asked for the most famous I thinks it’s meant more generally not academically. On average unless you’re interested in the subject I think you’d be more likely to know Sappho over Gorgo.
We are responding to Metatron’s claim that Gorgo is the only female mentioned by name by Herodotus.
Points for Lesbos island!! Awesome video as always noble one! Greetings from Hellas/ Greece!
Uh oh, the Metatron has another crush....
Shit, so do I. This girl is gorgeous and brilliant
She’s objectively gorgeous and she’s a historian. What’s not to love?
He has always had great taste 👏
Who doesn't? She's delightful!
@@tommynukes6352 Being a historian suits women so well...they always remember what someone said and which mistakes they made ages ago!
Possibly because I'm way older than you, i agree with her about the most famous ancient Greek woman. I was a STEM student in the 60s; i didn't become obsessed with history until my 50s. However, literature was a requirement of ANY degree, therefore i heard of Sapho.
I also knew of Hypatia (because mathematician) if you count her as Greek. Born in Alexandria and educated in Greece can argue for that.
Since the "most famous" is a subjective opinion, while I know who Gorgo was, and Sappho, all I can say is they were both famous. But Sappho for what she did, not for her husband and a couple of quotes.
There isn’t anything wrong with hoping a daughter will get married and raise a family.
The issue is when this is the ONLY path seen to be open to her. You fail to recognise this distinction.
@@tanya2660Right, and not every male, or even close to, will do something demanding and sacrificial with their lives. So why is it expected for a woman to? I really don't follow the logic that women should be treated as subhumans, and when we protest, are told that we aren't sentient enough to understand who we are or what we are asking for. Yes, we do.
I do understand that for some people, it's simply more satisfying to pretend to be the emperor. I 'get it' lol
I actually follow this girl on Tiktok. She puts out a lot of really good ancient history videos.
Beautiful expert, entertaining reaction video. You are very knowledgable
"If you know, you know,"
Dear brother, fellow man of culture, as soon as you mentioned "Minoan women" I knew exactly what you meant 😂🤩
As for the most famous woman, I didn't know Gorgo.
Saphos was an appropriate pick in my opinion outside of any mythic Greek figures. Depending on how you consider her, Helen probably takes the top spot in the "Hellenic Republic"
"How much more rent do i have to pay for just nine months of stay?" Alexander III after receiving a letter from Olympias complaining about Antipater's dealings in Greece (Olympias was a notorious schemer).
One woman who did fight in a war was the Queen of Halicarnassus, Artemisia I. She commanded a ship during the battle of Salamis (on the Persian side), and also took part in strategy meetings with Xerxes. That's according to Herodotus, who mentioned her by name several times.
Did she sink the boat?
@@arnoldvezbon6131 No, but she did sink an allied ship, on purpose. 😉
@@arnoldvezbon6131 It's been a while since I read Herodotus, but if I remember correctly, she sank one of the ships from her own side accidentally.
@ She could join the New Zeland Navy lol.
@@kittyprydekissme Not accidentally.
7:09 I think more people heave heard of Sappho. If you ask people who Gorgo was, more will think she was a creature in a monster film than will think she was a woman of Sparta.
Yes Gorgo was a British monster movie from the early sixties, intended as a competitor for Japan's Godzilla.
7:21 "I think Gorgo is more famous. But then again, maybe they wouldn't know anything and it is just me." -I love your commentary Metatron!
I'd think of her as more famous today just because of 300.
@@cp1cupcake True, but I knew her before 300 movie. To be honest, she was the only Greek women I knew, if you don't count Myths. Medusa, Pandora, Helen of Troy, Circe, Penelope, Calypso just to name few.
18:00 I totally agree Metatron, the traditional view of motherhood still deserves appreciation and recognition in our society. I balanced view of this, like Honor explaining the social recognition and status women with children could receive in that society, could help our modern society understand that world better.
"Honor, social recognition, status recived in society"
Note the last word you used there "society". In the absence of a society, who will appraise value to femininity and motherhood?
Man ran out of artist names and just started listing Ninja Turtles, smh.
JK
I'm sure Donatello helped Leonardo sculpting the Sixteenth Chapel...🤣
Perhaps the Greek women did not take part in politics but we had women scientists...also women had their own athletic events...Diotima, whom Plato referred to in his "Symposium", wrote that she was a wise woman and teacher of Socrates (469-399 BC)...AGLAONIKI: referred to by Plutarch as Aganiki (5th century BC), she was an ancient Greek astronomer (chronologically the first female astronomer of ancient Greece)...DEINO: Woman of Brontinus. Student and mother-in-law of Pythagoras, connoisseur of numerology. Study the missing numbers....and so many more...also the existence of women's competitions in ancient Olympia is one of history's best kept secrets! And yet, their existence is documented beyond any doubt. After all, women's sports were widespread in many parts of ancient Greece: in "Minoan" Crete, in Sparta and Delphi, in Chios, and even in Attica...
I think this shows the problem of trying to compare different cultures in history. For example if women were “oppressed” because they were expected to have families, then men were oppressed because they were expected to fight wars.
Also it’s not like you could vote just because you were a male, you had to have a certain social status and fulfill obligations, you couldn’t be some random shepherd or servant for example, and you’d be expected to participate in military life as well (which requires enough wealth to afford weaponry, armor and time to train).
Also voting in general is not really comparable because you’re part of a unified culture, you’d never be faced with political issues like prohibition or abortion, it’s more about who to go to war with and how to fund it. And unless you were a woman with no family, even the people voting for you would have your interests in mind because they care about you. If you were some random woman with no family or connections then you’d probably be a lower class person (foreigner, slave, etc) and not be better off than any men of your status.
Stop being reasonable, voting is a right given by something and something protected by something something.
Hahahahaha laughs in Athens and the ban on some philosophy and bans on trading. Lmao unified culture means nothing to the rulers ...
Fun fact: in some parts of Switzerland women gained the right to vote only 30 years ago. They did, because they were fed up with the men taking decisions against their wives benefits and wanted to have rights like being allowed to work without needing permission from their husbands.
Your point if view comes from a privileged position, but aristocrats used the same argument as you: the farmers don't need to have any political power, because their lords take decisions having in mind the interest of their people, while sending their people into stupid, unnecessary wars.
"women were “oppressed” because they were expected to have families. This is literally the only thing women can do that men can't do better.
@@helgaioannidis9365 And the fertility rate in Switzerland is 1.561. This means they are going extinct. Good job ladies!
The thing is, since women in noble families/the royal family could have power because of the influence they could have on the men, couldn't the same apply for the women in Athens, despite them not being able to vote themselves? Let us not forget, women didn't get the vote simply because they overpowered the men, but because they had men who cared about the women in their lives that helped and supported the change.
Athenian woman had no rights. They couldn't go out without a male chaperone. It was very oppressive for women. There was a quote referring to that of an Athenian asking why Sparta allowed so much freedom from their woman's in ancient sources. So we do know for a fact that women in Athens had no freedom at all. Even Roman woman had more rights than an Athenian one.
@Epsilonsama dude, the video debunks what you said. Did you even bother watching. Or reading what I said? I wasn't talking about freedom, I was talking about women influencing men from their families, royal or not. Like really, did you even bother watching the video before going for the comments?
@@EpsilonsamaThis sounds wrong. And it is. Because the video proves you wrong. Fun times. Try again
If you're interested on the subject you should read Micheal Scott he's researched the subject of women in ancient Greece and how their role was upgraded after the Peloponnesian war
@@Epsilonsama romans didnt give women names but numbers 😅
Ahh makes sense now you're the real life history version of Sheldon....huge fan i love this channel.
I would enjoy a video about the different systems of governance.
I think it would be wonderful.
I enjoyed this video very much.
32:40 As a german: „curse you, Metatron!“
Also, really appreciate your decision to only ever react to half a video, so as to encourage going to the original channel.
No one would know Gorgo. The regular person only knows of her through the movie 300, even then 50/50 if they knew her name.
25:28 That’s really interesting. In modern Greek we use the word τούτος/τούτοι for male (basically toutos/toutoi) or τούτη/τούτες for female (touti/toutes) in order to point out a person/people within our vicinity. It’s more like an alternative way of saying her/shehim/he/them/they.
Lol. In catalan we use tots for generic and plural masculine and totes for plural female
@@maxstirner6143 Makes sense, Rome (which had a lot of greek influence) had conquered Spain. That said the Basques are more close to the Ancient Greeks because they were so isolated. Barcelona was called Barkeno (Barcino much later), there was possibiy a Greek colony there as well (Kallipolis, meaning Good/Nice City), Phoenician colonies were also nearby (maybe near modern Valencia) & perhaps the name Barkenon stuck from the passing armies of Hannibal. Regardless, the most important Roman cities at Iberia (modern Spain) were Tarraco & Ceasaraugusta (modern day Tarragona & Zaragoza, earlier Saragossa). Barcelona really rose in prominence by the Hebrews/Jews escaping the Visigoths, the Jews were very famous for being very successful merchants).
Because Spartan men would die in battle, more and more and more wealth fell into the hands of women. This caused the wealthiest among them to be women, and the main reason that Sparta kind of puttered out and later failed.
What nearly always gets conveniently forgotten is that Greek (wealthy owner class) women were expected to veil outside their home, though the degree of that varied. In the beginning of the Hellenistic Era, the face veil with eye holes apparently spread throughout the Hellenistic world - at the same time as women's participation in the society increased. The veiling had been around for a longer time, though, and it never quite vanished even during the Byzantine Era. One volume that explores this topic extensively is Lloyd Llewellyn-Jones' "Aphrodite's Tortoise: The Veiled Women of Ancient Greece" (2003, paperback editions at least in 2010) that has an extensive list of sources, and a wide range of pictorial sources, such as the pottery paintings, but also stone reliefs and statuary.
The issue of the women's position in the Ancient Greece is a very controversial topic, and most of the research available online without university-provided access to the journal articles unfortunately appears to mostly consist of undergrad essays, which doesn't really make it easier to find reliable material instead of political manifestos - on one side of the debate. The other side, as far as the accessible material is concerned, doesn't seem to exist. I've recently delved into the history of the Antiquity quite extensively, and though I never graduated from the history department, I can claim that I know at least something on the topic, after reading a few dozen (peer-reviewed) articles and a couple of dozen monographs on the central questions, but my main interest at the moment is in the beginning of the Hellenistic Era, and in the Ptolemaic (first Satrapy, and then Kingdom of) Egypt in particular.
Oh, Metatron... "Who is the most famous Greek woman?". CLEOPATRA THE GREAT, Metatron. You should know, since you did many videos commenting her by this point.😉😆 Cleopatra is the most famous Greek woman, though she is usually linked with Egypt, so I get why she chose Sappho - I would say Saphho and Cleopatra are both valid candidates to this title. None heard about Gorgo except history buffs. I bet from even those who watched 300, some 2/3 is not remembering what are names of characters. And Herodotus did name other women than Gorgo: he named Rhodopis, lover of Sappho's brother, and - if we gonna count legendary characters - Helen of Troy and Nitocris (probably fictional female Pharaoh of Egypt).
My brother in pedantry, my weeabro in arms, I think she is answering it like that because it was presented that the questions are "most searched on the internet" - answers that contextualize it for the ones who searched in the internet.
Thank you for the video!
Greek here. Sorry to disappoint you metatron but indeed Sapho is considered more popular than Gorgo, and for a reason of course. Another pretty well known one is of course Aspasia and a solid runner up is Olympiada (Olympias as mentioned in the video). Another one that could even be considered more popular is of course Cleopatra too. Not belonging to the classical ancient greek world per se, but an ancient greek woman nevertheless.
She totally ignored Cleopatra who was pharaoh. Yes it's Egypt but it's Greek Egypt, with a Greek dynasty (until the Romans came that is).
Yes, I would name Cleopatra too. But Cleopatra defined herself as Egyptian and resided in Egypt, so I can understand why most people - even classicist - may not think immiediately about her. Sappho is still good answer. She is certainly more famous than Gorgo 😆😆
I mean she was Hellenic or a 9th generation greek immigrant.
In which case we would have to call John F. Kennedy Irish, Charlagmagne would be from a germanic tribe.
It gets a bit silly i think.
@Pawsk There was no such thing as 'Greece'. Egypt was one of he Greek kingdom. It's like saying Kennedy was part of the Anglo-Saxon world. Indeed he was.
@Pawsk And Charlemagne was Germanic. The Franks were a Germanic tribe.
@@Hope_Boat there is such a thing as Greece it’s a modern concept but it does exist look it up
- Could Greek women vote?
-NO
I loved how this video started...shout out from Greece!!!
Keep spreading the truth of history!!!
Assassins' Creed Odyssey gave me an aneurysm when they stated the game was based off of true historical events.
I knew metatron would react to this video after I watch the original video. No bias just facts
Cynisca's horses are the horses of St Mark in Venice, stolen from the city of cities, The Polis, the ruling city of Oikumene in 1204.
That was stolen before from Italy by the Byzantines.
@@danielefabbro822 dude, no! The horses were made in Alexandria, then they were moved to Constantinople, then they were robbed by the Venetians, then they were robbed by Napoleon and finaly they were robbed back to Venice.
@@danielefabbro822 Was it ?
I thought it was made in Constantinople.
@@tsym123 nah. Byzantines before leaving Italy to the barbarians stole from our land a lot of stuff.
In 1204 we just took back what was ours.
@@Sp-d2i from Wikipedia:
The sculptures date from classical antiquity. Many scholars believe they were sculpted in the 2nd or 3rd century AD, noting similarities to the Equestrian Statue of Marcus Aurelius in Rome (c. 175 AD).[1] But some say the evident technical expertise and naturalistic rendering of the animals suggest they were made in Classical Greece of the 5th and 4th centuries BC.[2]
In light of their short backs and long legs, it has been argued that they were originally situated above the eye line,[3] probably created to top a triumphal arch or some other grand building. Perhaps commissioned by the Emperor Septimus Severus, they may originally have been made for the Eastern capital of Constantinople, where they were long displayed.[3
On the video of different political hierarchies I'd love such a video. Historical figures viewed a lot of what we talk about now very differently, and our use of language has spawned from experiences and influence they didn't have.
I think it depends on whether you're asking who was the most famous ancient Greek woman in antiquity, i.e. among ancient Greeks, or who is the most famous ancient Greek woman today. Cause if it's the latter, the answer would almost certainly have to be Cleopatra VII (I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of people today do not know who Gorgo is).
Probably others from Alexandria who were mathematicians during the Hellenistic Age. But obviously during the Roman era Cleopatra stands the test of time. In Greek Mythology there are many Penelope, the goddesses, Helen of Troy would stand out the most since the Iliad was literally like the bible.
@billm3210 I can't think of any female Alexandrian mathematicians from the Hellenistic age. The only one who comes to mind is Hypatia and she lived centuries after the end of the Hellenistic era. Cleopatra still falls within the Hellenistic era, btw. (In fact, her death marks the end of the era.) But before her, there were certainly other Ptolemaic queens who were quite well-known. Berenike II and Arsinoe II, for example, were extremely popular in Egypt and were worshipped as goddesses long after their deaths. Some royal mistresses were also quite well-known. For example, Bilistiche, a mistress of Ptolemy II, won an Olympic chariot race (as did several Ptolemaic queens) and was deified by the king after her death. And there were also female actors in Hellenistic Alexandria (contrary to ancient Greek convention) and presumably some of them would have been well-known at the time, as well as. (The only one who comes to my mind, though, is Myrtion and the main reason her name is preserved is that she, too, was a mistress of Ptolemy II.) Another female artist from Hellenistic Alexandria is Anaxandra, who was apparently an accomplished painter in the 3rd century BCE. (Painting was often considered the highest form of art in ancient Greek culture.)
Honor: Well, what would happen is-
Metatron pauses video.
Metatron: What would happen is X.
Metatron unpauses.
Honor: -X.
Regarding the Greek city state standing united against none Greek enemies, that reminds me of the Celts who, Gaul and Caesar's Gallic War come to mind, were quite similar. To a far lesser degree my native Tyrol still carries a bit of that legacy, though it has softened quite bit during the last few decades but it used to be like this: within a village the hamlets were bashing each others' heads in, within a valley the villages were bashing each others' heads in, and within Tyrol the valleys were bashing each others' heads in, but woe to anybody from the outside who wants to mess with the Tyrolians. Than you get Napoleon (or really the Bavarians) and 1809.
PS In my opinion the Scottish Clans also have quite a few similarities with the Roman Gentes
The Gauls werent unified, they were essentially tribes, sometimes they fought with each other, some were even rivals hated enemies. The Celts were a bit more unified, a big loose alliance.
More importantly, they were a lot of distinictions between them. Generally speaking, the Southern Celts had a lot of different customs than the Northern Gauls. The Southern Gauls were influenced first by the Greek way of life (a lot of Greek colonies like Massailles, Nice and so on), then influenced by the Romans later as well.
The Northern Gauls had more relations with the Germanic tribes and they even worshipped a different god (Cernunnos), they were ruled by druids & they even performed human sacrifices. One of the strongest tribes were the Arverni. An Arverni king tried to unite (really subjugate) the northern Gauls, but he was deposed by the other northern tribes who wanted autonomy.
The Middle Gauls (primarily the Arverni tribe) were more like the Southern Gauls in customs (but they had druids as well), but farther from the influence of Greece/Rome. Even then, they frequently exchanged oaths of fealty to the Romans, even before the age of Ceasar & they were honored as Brothers of the Romans. They were hated enemies of the Seine tribe (from the river Seine , the original name is Sicuana in Celtic, Σηκουανας in Greek, it means holy river in Celtic) & ofcourse they teamed up with the Romans against them.
The Arverni tribe became the first Gallic tribe that had the right of election in the Roman Senate (Jus Honorus).
18:00 I had to add this. Nobody seems to talk about how men have always been expected to provide stability and security for himself. Then he is expected to find a wife and give that to her while disregarding his own safety should the need arise.
That is true for women too though, and older children.
@@Pawsk It's a new idea, making woman have an income. And women are expected to give up security for their children, but not for their husband's. Children are not expected to do either, but the age of a child does change with culture and time.
@@Pawsk depends on the time period, we have had a lot more widowed women, throughout history, than widowed men or orphaned children. More often we see prostitution and self servitude than anything
@ so slaves who didn’t have income didn’t have to take care of themselves?
@@Pawsklol
The MOST famous Greek woman, perhaps most famous woman of the ancient world is Cleopatra. She ruled Egypt, but she was Greek.
That's cuz African culture treated women as equals under law
Great vid thx very much
8:40 This here is an example of when Metatron's pedantry gets in the way of the point. "Oppressive to the majority of people that lived there" is not an untrue statement. The vast majority of people that lived within Athens were slaves and people who had no rights. By definition of "oppressive" that's what it was. Whether or not the people were dissatisfied with that oppression is a different matter and Metatron is asserting that people of the time weren't dissatisfied with that oppression (which frankly I don't agree with, I mean if you're a slave, while you might not know a better life, you certainly aren't happy or thrilled at your situation, that's just common sense. It doesn't matter if other places had it worse. That "what-about-ism" logic never is a justifiable argument. What is bad is bad, even if there are varying levels of bad). Metatron is inserting a narrative that the History Hit person isn't suggesting. And as far as it being "advanced", again how does that *disapprove* the assertion that it was oppressive. Because they had an advanced legal code and political doctrine doesn't make oppressive policy less oppressive. Oppressive does not automatically mean = evil or bad. It means those on top oppress those below. Or more simply put, it means those with power prevent others from acting freely, which is how their system worked for anybody but acknowledged citizens of Athens.
Nah buddy, they were slaves because they accepted the play, otherwise they would have revolted.
@@maxstirner6143 They *did* revolt. Many times throughout history. Dealing with slave revolts has been a thing since slavery has been a thing.
That also isn't relevant to the statement, "Oppressive to the majority of people who lived there". Whether they were ok with the situation or not, they're still be oppressed.
@@pacmonster066 yeah, those revolts were famous because they were just a few.
It is relevant because slavery as institution is old and works for a bunch of reasons, being the compliance, the biggest one.
And no, being oppressed isn't like being pregnant, the SU lasted 80 yrs for a reason, minorities can't oppres the majority; even Stalin had a clique and the majority take advantage of the oppressed inside the SU, till they didnt. That's why the other non russian countries revolted and did fall before Russia did. It's always the majority who oppress till they cant.
Roman slaves didnt revolt till Spartacus even when they were 3/4 of the population for the same reasons the jews didnt in the camps during the war, because among them were other inmates that were given power over their companions and had their own cliques. There were more guards than those outside the fence.
Also, that's not the point, the point is that oppression has grades and it's a ladder.
I mean, I can also state that even a king is oppressed by his ppl, as he has to act as a king and not a freemen, he has duties and ppl expect of him, otherwise his head will roll.
annoying isn't it
Lol okay Redditor.
HYPED about the Origin of the Greeks upload :D
Edit: @32:03 😂😂😂
3:36 yes bro it’s so ridiculous. Paintings / sculptures of naked people 2, 3, 4000 years old. Ancient relics of history. It is what it is , no need to censor it tbh. And then you have OF models able to promote their stuff… make it make sense.
Here is the usual comment, like, and full view for channel growth.
The Sassanids were way after the first recorded story of the Amazons.
I watched this earlier today and wondered if you would be reacting to it or not.
When they refer to the women as living inside the houses, it doesn't seem surprising to me, even today this kind of mentality can be found in villages. They weren't locked up obviously, they just didn't participate in society... just like today you will hardly see women in a coffee shop (kafenio) in a village. Even today, the most common are visits to neighbors' houses.
The older women like to talk about how much fun they used to have going to fetch water, because they'd see their friends there.
Do women preferer to live in the street? "they just didn't participate in society" this is wrong since they had children and this is literally making society.
@@arnoldvezbon6131 They probably refer to men's society which is symposiums, Olympics, theatre etc. Otherwise women had their own festivals where they gathered and they probably would meet while fetching water or washing the clothes at stream or the sea (didn't Odysseus wash up on a beach where Nausicaa and her handmaidens washed clothes), at each other houses in the women's section of the house or at the market (there are sources like Aristophanes' plays that there were women who were sellers as well as other historical written sources). Plus, I believe there were mixed festivals where they would have some interaction with men consensually or sadly, non-consensually. They would meet at weddings too and it is mentioned in some comedic plays that they could visit the countryside (perhaps if they had villas there or relatives).
I used to love watching ancient history as a kid with Bettany Hughes. She was awesome.
As a casual, I’ve heard of Sappho. I don’t recall Gorgo at all. The other Greek women I can name are Clytemnestra, Iphigenia, Helen and Penelope.
I saw this video, and middle way only thought "when Metratron's video will come"
Metatron, if we are talking about mythological figures the most famous Grerk woman of all time is without a doubt Helen and not Gorgo, followed by Pandora. Now if we are talking historically the Spartan queen of the same name doesn't even compete with Kleopatra VII. If we exclude the Hellenistic Era I'd say that Sppho is probably better known than Queen Gorgo.
4:00 If i need to remember all the Ninja Turtle names.
Herodotus mentions Artemisia by name.
I have a big issue with metatron judging these videos and the speakers therein for “modernizations”. I think that he is sometimes right that there are anachronistic interjections and chauvinist theories, but largely these people are trying to communicate with an unacademic (or less aware) audience and are addressing what the thoughts of those people would be.
Like at 8:42 where he criticizes the speaker for saying Athens was an oppressive regime when she is clearly comparing it to modern conceptions of Athenian democracy.
Overall I appreciate the consistency that metatron approaches these videos with. But, I believe that, because these videos are not academic discourse , the use of language to identify the intended audience with a more accurate picture of the past is generally fine.
Yup, could not agree more.
Herodotus did name other women than Gorgo: he named Rhodopis, lover of Sappho's brother, and - if we gonna count legendary characters - Helen of Troy and Nitocris (probably fictional female Pharaoh of Egypt).
Plutarch covers much of this in his work Parallel Lives. I highly recommend reading it.
using toxic makeup on a womans lips gives a whole new dimension to the statement "your kisses take my breath away."
To be honest, I also thought about Sapho. I believe it depends on the curriculum of your studies. I studied Classics and we had one term devoted to the saphic poetry. And if you study this for a longer time, this is automatically the first thing that comes to mind.
The issue I have with Sappho is I used to work construction with a high number of lesbian women. They continually referred to one another as "Hey, Sapphic Sister!" and it became so absolutely exhausting listening to their preaching of "Entire cities of just women, not a man needed because women, proven by Sappho, don't need men to thrive and become prosperous.
They simply would not shut up about it and it got so obnoxious that some of the men reported them as safety hazards due to their lack of focus on the work at hand while going off about the Lesbos Islands and Sappho the most important writers who ever lived.
It was as if they were in a cult.
Sappho definitely was passionate about women women, but those lesbians were completely incorrect that she didn't need a man, as she was famous for having male lovers as well. Sappho also mentioned in her poetry to have a daughter, so she obviously made use of at least one man, if we gonna believe her poems. 😆
I do have a copy of an Open University textbook somewhere, I think (if I haven't thrown it out). It contained a Greek comedy play and it was very funny and an eye opener. The female characters were talking to each other and one in particular was quite lewd. They didn't seem to live in the same household. Amongst the topics being discussed was the practice of plucking out pubic hair!
Im kinda ashamed to admit that but I didnt know who Sapho was at all and I learned about Gorgo just from the movie 300.
And yes I SHOULD be ashamed cause I grew up and live in Sparta of Greece....! At least for the Gorgo one.
When I was young - in the 1960s - I would have said Sappho was the most famous Greek woman. But now I would say Gorgo, since the Spartans and Leonidis have been in the movies.
British accent always helps!
They sound smart damn it!
Role of a woman mother in Sparta: Giving the shield to her son and tell him to return with it, or on it...
Thank you but please don't say such nice things then quote a comic book 😄
English accent to be exact
First thing I thought of when she mentioned Greek women fighting was that lady who killed Pyrrhus with a roof tile
The host of this history hit episode is stunning. And so smart!
She is excellent
If only more teachers could be like that..
What was she talking about?
@@gingerbaker_toad696 nah, her beauty would be very distractive
I teach high school World History (Renaissance to modernity) and I have to censor The David, Da Vinci's Vitruvian Man, Ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. The "covering up" actually draws more attention to it from a "naughty" perspective.
You forgot another half-gre greek queen artemisia i of halikarnasus who herodotus as himself a native of writes
Who?
@@arnoldvezbon6131 Queen Artemisia. Fought in Xerxes' invasion of Greece on the Persian side. She was a widow and her son was underage, so she was a reigning queen as vassal of the Persian Emperor and commanded her own ships in the invasion.
To add to your comment on Athenian democracy, estimates about the participation of the Athenian populace in the political life amount to 10-15% of the population. In comparison US democracy before the civil war is estimated to involve about 6-7% of its population. Mind you that was less than 200 years ago, 2300 years after Athenian democracy.
I love how triggered Metatron gets about the censored art, it's so absurd.
I am triggered by it as well. I usually stop viewing UA-cam videos when that censorship happens.
He is right, youtube has videos that can easily be classified as pure porn, truly inappropriate and sexual, with full nudeness, yet a classical painting gets censored.
It should be someone between Aspasia, Hypatia, Sapfo, Gorgo and Olympias (for the real ones). And there were many many more fictional/legendary/divine ones.
In the old days they used to call the way she spoke as 'a cut-glass accent'. Very RP.
Why was the accent called that?
That's how quite a lot of British people sound, I wasn't expecting Raf to like her accent so much as he married an American though 😉
@@ethancox9737 Historically, only the wealthiest of upperclass people could afford to eat off of Waterford type cut-glass dinnerware. Drinking out of cut-glass was consider a symbol of elite status.
@@Zayphar Oh, got it.
@@valandil7454 According to recent survey's, less than 2% of British citizens speak with a traditional Recieved Pronounciation(RP) accent. Even among highly educated people who live and work in the Oxbridge(Oxford/Cambridge) environment, this accent is VERY rare. Much more common is what is called the 'London RP' accent, which is a less pronounced traditional accent that you can hear in many actors in Britain(Sir Ian McKellen, Sir Stephen Fry, Emma Watson, Rose Leslie, etc.)
When I was in high school one of my class mates asked the history teacher why did ancient greeks paint naked men a lot. His reply to her was that they were celebrating the beauty of the human body.
God damn, that's one beautiful historian, suddenly I'm interested in history now.
simp
Yeah, the girl looks fine too!
Glad u brought up the original prefix to add to man to mean male rather than just person
I heard of Sappo decades ago. Just now, 1/16/25 at 12:20 am have I heard of Gorgo
Heavily depends on your interests. Gorgo is more well known among military historians and people interested in geopolitical history (kind of obvious actually considering she was Spatan), but Sappho is more popular among those interested in culture and the arts. Though I agree Sappho is probably better known than Gorgo.
Arguably, however, Cleopatra is more popular than either.
Beautiful and loves history, name a better combo.
''The main role of Spartan women was still marriage and procreation'' So they respected their women quite more than we do today in our slavery-for-everyone occupied nations.
Yeah, as if procreation (and by extent family) wasn't the very foundation for the survival of the human species.
She's a feminist, she doesn't get it. She believes that the most natural obligation marrying and having kids is a bad thing and disrespectful to women. Poor woman. If her mother would've had her mindset this woman wouldn't exist in the first place. A nation can survive without feminists but not without children.
@@Randgalfit's a typical thing modern audiences forget, because we don't have the same need for women as the only ones capable of having children to do it.
In ancient Greece it was expected for men to work and fight, potentially injured themselves or die for their country, which is why the political stage was ran by men.
While the women due to the high percentage of child mortality and casualties of conflict needed to do what the men couldn't for the society to continue.
Everyone thinks of it from a modern view where the necessities of life are completely different. Honestly in this day and age the majority of people have TOO MANY civil rights and NOT ENOUGH responsibilities so can't be expected to understand how things used to be.
I'm not historian though my degrees are in Commercial Business and Legal Systems, I just love looking back and seeing how people change 🙂
@@Randgalfyeah but you’re missing the point, there is a difference in having freedom as a human being and only being seen as a tool for procreation and doing some chores.
@@Uwanasora I don't know either- I suspect a dog whistle of some sort.