What Do Guitar Amp Builders THINK Of Modelers?
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- Опубліковано 28 січ 2020
- I asked Joe Morgan, Dave Friedman, Mike Soldano and Pete Arends what they think of the current state of guitar amps. How do they feel about the modeling and digital amp world?
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Great quote and analogy! My little Kemper "Porn Star" sits right here on the corner of my desk 24/7/365 eager to please and ready to do whatever, whenever. There's not one day I've woken up yet missing my "tube wife".
That "porn" analogy stung sharp my man! LMAO! I'm a former studio/road dog now in an apartment with an E-drum kit and guitar plugins. Ha!
You should swap chairs so the guitar is in a more comfortable aspect
👍
Smart video Rhett, I like your content is solid as always, do you come to Massachusetts for gigs, I’d love to meet you man! Peace
"Modelers are the internet porn of guitar amps." That is the best and most accurate analogy I have ever heard
Because I can't afford to have all these amps!
LOL....Leave it to Joe to come up with the quote of the day.
True. Best valid argument I've heard in years (and I'm (mainly) a modeler guy)
That was a fantastic comment. I had an audible guffaw at that one! :-P
I completely disagree. The analogy is outdated.....
Muscle Car with carburetor: Awesome
Daily Driver that has heated seats and starts consistently in the winter: Awesome
End of the day we're all driving, just a different experience.
Tubes are great, modelers are also great. Lets make music.
best outlook i have seen
@@EpicStuffMan1000 Very true.
Nathaniel Bailey Well said.
I drive a ‘68 Plymouth Satellite 383 every day in the northeast.
For the last year, I play guitar thru an Axe III.
I like that
Use a guitar cab with a modeler. All the “feel” and “feedback” complaints are solved if you do.
It’s not the modeler, it’s the playback system. If you mic up a Friedman and listen to it on IEM, guess what, all the feel and feedback goes away just the same as modelers.
i wish someone could address everyone with that complaint and tell them this. it's so simple but they can't get their heads around it
I deny this for no reason
What about those amps that do DSP but with a tube power section?
I've actually got this proven! You are completely right on this! That's why those guys from Line 6 lunched the Power Cab! Great solution to the "Big Problem", otherwise you could just got some in ear monitors, which is the standard and most common way to go live in a big stage situation.
I gigged this way for a year. It still didn't feel quite the same as a tube amp. There's something about how tame it is that just didn't feel right. I'm in the same camp as Dave Friedman. Its too clinical. There's not enough danger to it and the guitar/amp interaction that I'm looking for as a player, just isn't there. It feels like guitar/modeler has less personality and less of a mind of its own than a guitar/amp combination. There feels like there's less space between extremes of how your approach attacking a note to explore as well.
It's perfect how at 10:30 he's talking about the problems of loud amplifiers, and on cue, a guitarist starts bawling a solo somewhere in the background.
I think they all seem to think the same thing but at the end of the day, more people now cant crank up real amps at home and more venue's don't want or don't allow high volume on stage so thats why people go down the digital road like myself. I can get great tones at any volume at home plus its so easy to record without owning lots of mic's and mic pre's. Great video Rhett.
Mark Pritchard Not to mention the dozens of amps and mics at your disposal. Great for a player who’s in and say a cover band situation, they have access to all the genres in one floor pedal.
No amps for me since 2002. Not missing them either.
Exactly. Same analogy as taking your wonderful super fast sportscar out for a 100 mph burn somewhere. I can't do that where I live so I drive something that's about 8/10 there and I get to enjoy it way more often. The corksniffer stuff is all fine if you have man cave and venues to play these amps in. I don't and tried to make vintage tube amps work for years, but fed up with endless amount of add ons like attenuators, IR boxes, etc. and the amp still sounds crappy because you're playing it a conversation volume. Ridiculous!Bought a Fender Tonemaster Deluxe and I'm never looking back.
Amps are tools to me. Find one that works regardless of the tech behind it.
sneifert1968 that’s right, it just makes perfect sense especially when I couldn’t afford more than a couple of amps anyway.
With devices such as the ox box or Waza tube amp expander these are necessarily valid arguments anymore you can dime a 100 watt non master plexi now and have it at a whisper just IMHO
Interesting thought to ponder, is the "Golden Age of Guitar" really the end of guitar? here is an example of what I mean, when I got into guitar in the late 70s and early 80s almost everything made (at normal prices) was junk-ish. there were guitar stores in almost every town and on every corner, even pawn shops that were known to have gear. we would spend every weekend making what we called the guitour, looking for the old good stuff, the thrill of the hunt, and when we found it we were really lucky and felt accomplished. I remember some guys being better known for what gear they had and their tone and not as much for their ability. there were (and still are) people who are more gear collectors rather than players. then the 90s came and manufactures started to understand that guitar players would buy better new gear if it was like that great old stuff, so the reissue stuff came out, then in the 90-2000s you started to see the boutique stuff show up, custom builder that were just building stuff like they used to do and made it sound like all the stuff we were hunting for, expensive but still way more affordable then the real stuff. now here we are today, we have all pretty much defined the sounds we consider "good tone", classic amps and classic pedals and such. I could even go out on a limb and say that there are no amp builders saying "you know what we need to do, build an amp that makes a tone nobody every heard", they almost all say "lets build an amp that sounds like XYZ amp". So what if we have defined "good tone", and that sets a bench mark for the modeler builders, that means that there stands a very good chance that because the tone benchmark has been established (and it can't change because it is based off the past), there may some day come that a modeler nails it (maybe they already have). and if a modeler nails it, and everything is just a download away, then for many that thrill of the hunt will be over, and for some maybe the joy of guitar is lost.I know, there is a lot more to it all than that, but it is still an interesting thought. what if everybody could have everything, and everybody all sounded the same. I know you say that this is the golden age, but I feel I lived in the golden age 30-40 years ago when music stores were everywhere, bands played everywhere, and there was still a mystery side of it all.again just a thought.
Check out the CAZ 45 from Dr Z
Yes, my wife and my Marshall are both high maintenance.
LOL ! my girlfriend is more expensive than my Soldano....
@@13adulte Time to send those women packing and let them know that the guitar gear is number 1.
Ill never get rid of my tube amps. I feel the same way about guitars. Everything matters because the way the gear makes you feel, directly inspires the music you make, the way you play. Yes, it may be all in my head. That’s the point, it’s in my head, this is everything when it comes to creating and being inspired.
B Miller brilliant thought. I remember Blackstar amps had a advertising slogan “the sound in your head”. As musicians we are a big organic feedback system, if we are getting excited, the audience will feel that too.
agree love feel and tone of a real tube amp
Interesting perspectives. Thanks for sharing Rhett 🤘💜🤘
Soldano really nailed it. Maybe the best time for great gear, but the best time for great guitar music that is widely appreciated is long gone...
I think the reason why this is true is mostly because guitarists are hesitant to adopt the new and incoming tech.
IMO the reason why pop music is the way it is today, aside from corporatization, is because the pop stuff is just easier to make. You don't have to reach for a tube amp and Mike it up and disturb your neighbors. I have a tube amp and a solid state amp with an XLR line level out in my recording studio. Guess which one I use more?
Jazz was the new hip thing when it came out, then people found you can make great songs with just 3-4 guitarists and a drummer. When jazz started to fade, it was because (IMO) jazz elitists did not adopt new standards of pop music. Just like how a lot of guitarists are not adopting the new tech and still desperately hanging on to tubes.
I don't think the time for great guitar music has passed. I think it can come back if
1) guitar snobs STOP trying to avoid shifts in the tech and
2) corporations shift away from the current pop trend.
"There's no danger left. . ." How Rock n' Roll is that? :)
Tube amp sounds like the real thing, but playing at home with neighbors and my kids sleeping, my helix sounds much better than my tube amp at volume 1-1,5
tube amps sound better at a specific volume and a specific sound and I think everyone can agree to that. I think people that go for modellers think about convenience and sacrificing a better overall tone.
LOL I own 2 Friedman’s and a Morgan SW50r and they sound amazing on 2.
Evh 5150 3, has the power level control which I crank the channel volume to 10 then set power level to whatever and sounds the same! At least to my ears any way🤪🤘🏼!
Just be a bad neighbor like me. My amps sound great on 4-5😂
not a problem for a 1 watter like mine.
That roaring amp in the background of Soldano said more than himself did.....
agree, I was thinking: that he/or she test-playing that amp has the "best job in the world -ish.."
Rhett, you’re a great interviewer! I think this video shows your massive growth as a content creator and a possible new avenue as a “host”.
James Cass thanks James!
Great information. I'm 67 and the last time i played o was 17. In those days it was all tubes. I'm retiref now and started playing guitar. The hardest thing for me is trying to get my head wrapped around what amplifier to buy. This video helped immensely to understand what is out there. Please keep up the awesome work you are to keep us informed. Especially old timers like myself.
Very interesting responses, and well articulated where amps as part of the instrumentation and experience of making music. Great capture Mr. Shull!!
Really interesting topic! I have owned tube amps for 40 years and love using them, however, I have switched over to modelers for all the stuff I record and live performances. They work better for the complex signal chains I set up and I love the fact that I can play in stereo at a low volume (old ears...). The feel aspect that was mentioned is a great point, but I have found that my main modelers (Headrush and the older Eleven Rack) are very interactive if you turn the volume up. The feedback dynamic is very similar to a real amp. For all that, there is still magic that exudes from a glowing tube (especially a 1950s vintage Visseaux 6V6GT!).
So cool that you own a headrush because I feel like compared to helix and other modellers, headrush were able to really replicate what it'd sound like having all these amps and effects are your fingertips. They sacrificed quantity over quality, which is always better in my opinion.
One of the best vids I've seen. Answering the internets question. Love it bro! Keep it up.
Really insightful, and also quite entertaining! You're also a really good interviewer, Rhett.
Happiness is a warm tube. 😂 Respect
“What does my ex think of my new girl?”
Haha yep that is fairly accurate
Bang on
How is this not the top comment
This is stupid funny! 🤣
Best fucking comment I've ever read
I did an episode on my channel on this very thing. It’s really cool to hear these guys saying a lot of my points a bit more clearly. Great video!
Great video bro!!! Very cool to see their input in all of this!!
Most of the talk about modelers is that they plug into the DAW or house sound system. The "feel" of a guitar amp seems to stem from the guitar interacting with the sound coming from the amp. If you're in a cover band, a modeler going into a full range flat response (FRFR) amp could get you the best of both worlds. I'm considering getting a Strymon Iridium and a FRFR cab. Press a button and you get a deluxe reverb. Press another and you get an AC-30.
Man, after being a strictly tube amp guy for ever, last year I sold all my analog stuff and went to the Helix. It’s been 100% the best thing I’ve ever done. I use a Katana Mk2 head as a power amp and a 212 cab. I just use the amp models on the Helix, no cab sims or IR’s. So, I still get the feel of pushing air, but the biggest thing to me is it doesn’t have to be insanely loud to get the most out of it like a tube amp.
That's exactly it isn't it. A modeller thorough a power amp and a cab surely is the true genius of modellers because you can get the tone of different amps at the push of s button but you are still experiencing the interaction of an amp. Then when you simply want to record, you can plug your modeller into a DAW and use a good IR and be done with it
Thanks for sharing this! This was cool to hear from the builders!
Great video, Rhett! Appreciate you doing these interviews. You hit the nail on the head: "it's a great time to be a guitar player." I hope young guitarists today appreciate what they have at their disposal. At 12 years old I started out on a SS Peavey Backstage 30 with an MXR Distortion + and Morley pedal and was in heaven. Times have certainly changed!
I went from SS to tube and though I'd never look back. Bought a Helix LT last year mainly for the effects. But the more I use it the more I'm really liking some of the amp models. I run in 4CM and I have a few patches that use my tube amp preamp, and several that go direct into the effects return so my tube amp is just a power amp for the Helix. I've been leaning toward just going direct to the effects return but can't quite pull that trigger. I have no interest at this time to switch to FRFR - but who knows what'll happen down the road.
Really enjoying your channel!
And some artist paint with oils, and others make computer generations, just a different medium.
This is a good analogy because I believe it goes deeper than you intended. When an artist uses oils, you can look at the individual brushstrokes, you can take your hand and feel them. It's an intricate detail that a printed sheet from a computer generated image lacks. If you're just looking at the images then they both look great, but if you're trying to *understand* the image, one has that kind of depth that the other doesn't.
@@TheKogunEnjou Great point. I believe there's even more depth there as well... Let's say you are an artist who is constantly traveling, and cannot afford to bring their entire painting setup (palette, canvases, paints, oils, brushes, varnish, etc) on the road every single day. Perhaps having a small reliable computer tablet you can easily travel with is the best and most practical solution for the specific artists needs? Musicians are in a very unique art form because it is something created from passion on your own, but also must be recreated in a live environment for an audience every night on tour. I feel like so many people who insult digital gear has never had to go on tour and pack up 5 peoples gear/personal belongings/merch into a tiny van you have to sleep in, and haul that across the country for weeks. Every "artist" and "musician" is doing their own unique thing, which will dictate the tools needed.
@@TheKogunEnjou And it's even deeper than YOU intended, because with a digital painting, you can actually take it apart and watch each individual brush stroke as it was applied.
@@faethe000 *Mind Blown*
Ask an oil painter and they will disagree.
I was slow to adopt a modeler, but once I REALLY got serious about using it, stopped trying to find fault with it, and embraced that it wasn't always going to be the be-all, end-all of ONE particular tone, I realized I had done myself a huge disservice by fighting it. The advantages are so many that it's almost silly to even list them (they're obvious), and 9 times out of 10, when someone says things about "feel" or "sterile" are talking about confirmation bias and inexperience. Once I got a GOOD modeler, and a good monitor system that did a decent job of replicating the cabinet at volume, I knew I was the weak link, not the equipment. There's nothing "sterile" about a modeler, if you use it right. That's someone who has not really used one to it's fullest, and I learned that the long slow way.
Which modeler do you use? I am all for switching, or at least having a backup, but I have struggled with them.
@@evinoc Kemper or Axe FX. In terms of the best modelers out there now, they're it.
@@evinoc helix is a good bet if you don't have kemper money, but be warned you have to learn how to create tones in the helix a little bit differently to how you'd dial in tones in real life. and the in built cabinets can be a little flat if you don't spend hours from them, so dropping £30 on some ownhammer IRs (whatever cab you use in real life, get an IR of that) could benefit you greatly. other than that, everything OP said was completely spot on
I've been using a 65 Vox AC-15 run together with a 95 Peavey Classic 20 for the past twenty years; sounds great. Why are people obsessed with modeling? Find the sound you like and play. I don't want to sound like twenty different amps; I want to sound like me. You could have been practising the guitar instead of spending hours messing with a modeler. Plug and play.
@@melvynobrien6193 I only run on the clean and crunch channels and dial in what sounds good on the amp and also pedals. Takes me 3 minutes tops.
Hey Rhett, dig the insight! Learn something new every time I watch. Keep it up!
Been a tube amp player all my life, however, finding the modeler thing very practical for many situations. For example, orchestral pits! When you are contracted to play a book and the instruments required are say electric, acoustic, nylon, banjo, mandolin or maybe lap steel...a tube amp quickly becomes impractical. More times then less you find yourself juggling 4 different fretted instruments within a confined 5x5 space, and it is just a nightmare to make a tube amp do its thing. So you sacrifice. However, a modeler (particularly in my situation a Kemper) solves the problem. It's one foot switch away from converting your amp from an electric sound to an acoustic sound with voluming and morphing. Very revolutionary, and practical in that situation.
Rhett, cool video! Great interviews with the some of the greatest amp designers! I enjoyed it. "The Feel" seems to be the common theme.
I'm hybrid as well: Pedalboard into a tube amp (head) into Torpedo Live when I record in my apartment-based studio. That same pedalboard into my Kemper Rack (only for amp/cab profile) when I play out.
80's tried a Johnson modelling amp, Yamaha had "transtube", then sometime later a variety of transistor amps hit the market, all quite good. Have a few multi effects units by Roland and Line 6, a modelling amp by Fender. They really have come a long way. To my own personal ears, my old Boogie mk2c and Fender deluxe and Marshall 40watt still kick butt
Awesome video, some great insights offered here Rhett, great job! And, Im a tube amp person all the way but like every one interviewed agreed; there is certainly a place for digital and digital is here to stay and as much as I love my Fender '57 Deluxe Reissue I also love my THR 10--like you say, its the golden age.
I’m loving these videos more and more everyday!
I like digital or modelling for practicing on my own and learning stuff. I like my tube amps for actually playing with a band.
When dude is talking about"The Allman Brothers plugging a Les Paul into a marshall turned on 10"...THAT is the reason I even picked up a guitar when I was 12. I'm almost 50. And I still get that feeling when my amp is loud.
Ewolf5150 if he has not turned 50 he is not a boomer lol
Awesome video, Rhett! Lets make the Part II with other amp builders, curious about how other companies/builders think about it. Thanx for doing this. Again, awesome video! :)
Thanks for getting thoughts from the actual experts - amazing you were able to interview all 4! It's interesting how much they agreed, for example on the importance of feedback. One thing no other technology has been able to fully replicate is the way tubes naturally break up (clip). The dynamics and type of compression are really hard to emulate. Pushing a tube feels like you're about to make a bottle pop, in the best way possible.
I saw a thing with A Day To Remember where they said that switching from amps to modelers have saved them $15,000 a year. Modelers can be a logistic thing as opposed to tonally preferable.
I find Friedman's arguments in this video the least appealing. The form factor is not comparable at all.
I really enjoyed this video! I am in the moment of going back and forth between modeler or tube. Really appreciate the perspectives presented in the interviews. And the modeler-internet porn analogy is too spot on
@@temujenbarca1284 good for you. We're not all there. Some of us have to make the best of what we got, and we can't lug around full stacks because it feels good.
It's crazy when bands with Metallica/Megadeth/Avenged Sevenfold budgets say they switched to modellers on tour.
@@MaestroJericho hey, $15,000 is $15,000. It make life easier for the techs. 90% of the fans can't tell the difference or care.
It could save more money than just shipping. Metallica uses like, 500 amps. How many tubes are in each amp that need to be replaced? How many pots? Speakers?
from a pro audio background, I can tell you that 10 years ago, foh engineers had the same discussion. "I don't wanna scroll through pages to get to something" "I can see everything on an analog desk" "It sounds so stale"...
On the other side having an amp and cab is so much more satisfying in a rehearsal room than having 3 modelers through a shared shitty PA. And going full in-ear is a real stretch for most beginners.
LukVonTrug I see the similarities. But the feel thing is really where the difference lies for me. I still have my original pod. I struggled for years to have similar high gain sounds from tube amps. Amps have long been a challenge for me. I have a helix. And I don't like it as much as a Deluxe or AC15 or Orange... It is super convenient and a great creative tool. But as player, there's this "thing" between me and my sound that's different. You don't get to feel it if you're just listening. Also, I like working with an X32, but I don't want to go back to a 01V.
Julien Valois Dobbie I agree.
Nobody wants to work with a 01V 😁
Love my Helix, love my tube amp, love my pedal board. Love it all. It's all simple, and it's all complicated. It's all inspiring at times, and it all bores me when the right mood hits. It's a big tent and it's all good. Man, i love listening to people who are knowledgable and passionate talk about their craft. Great vid, as always
It's incredibly how designers are involved with musicians on a deep contact. They can describe how players use this tools and what are they looking for when they get involved in music and in electric guitar. You made a great job too as a journalist getting involved with this top designers and amp builders.
i still prefer small combo tube amp, like my princeton 68. I had some digital stuff...they have too much parameters in my opinion, i'm a plug and play guy, just amp, overdrive and reverb
Plug and play, you got it. Who needs 50 different amp sounds, most of which don't really sound like the amp being "modeled," eh? Why anyone would spend a lot of money on a Helix just to use it at home is beyond me.
I'm a plug and play guy, just amp, overdrive( Sans Amp), chorus, delay, Octaver, looper, and reverb.
@@melvynobrien6193 To practice quietly with headphones on with balls to wall sound. It's a flipping tool, not a replacement for the real amp. Something your can use while other people in the house are sleeping.
@@melvynobrien6193 because you have shitload of options, if you want a new sound you can change it, but you are right, helix is damn expensive
It's all beautiful language, the beauty of tube amps and the extension of Self. However, the reality in practicality and VOLUME for 95% of players is that they will NEVER BE ABLE TO TURN THE AMP PAST 2. They will never be able to produce feedback and all of the wonderful squeals, and unpredictability.
They are in homes or bedrooms, small stages, garages, etc., and in those situations modeling is key. Cranked volume in the headphones, and algorithms so complex most ears can't hear or feel a difference.
Always have a way to set up a speaker in your proximity. I don't care if you have to play a smaller speaker right next to your mike stand.
Great video Rhett! Some really interesting perspectives about the topic :)
Another great video from Rhett Shull! Rhett is truly an inspiration for us working musicians and so much more! We've seen beautiful tours from Europe, Paris, and so many great places around the world. Heck, the other month, haha, I was watching a video of Rhett demoing some high dollar, gorgeous instruments in a very fine guitar store. Little did I know, Noah Guthrie (only1noah) was in the video! I was pausing and trying to get a clear visual, then I recognized Ian, Noah & the gang! Awesome stuff, I then put it all together and it's truly amazing what the networking power of great musicians can do! My little brother and Noah used to bang on some drum sets at my place back in the day, great stuff! Any how, I tend to rant, but Rhett, seriously man thank you for bringing us this great content. Great footage, great edits, proven knowledge and facts! Good stuff, I watch every upload you put out! I'm sure I speak for many by saying this, but if anyone is asking questions to themselves about gigs and want to know what hurdles and stuggles one may experience, well look no more. Rhett's Channel is great! Keep killing' it brotha!
I only play tube amps,
At Guitar Center.
love you rhett, keep on with the content
He doesn't love you 🤣 he doesn't even reply to comments. At all. 👎
@@J__C__ he has replied to a comment of mine a while back, and despite what you say he does love his fans. Without them he cant do what he loves to do, and honestly this entire community is generally loving and accepting, minus the one ass hole thats always bound to show up. This time around being you :)
Edit: he also has a discord server, which he regularly replies to his fans
Thanks jaden!
J C say what now?
@@RhettShull sorry Rhett. I was trolling cuz I was in a bad mood. Had a real, bad day yesterday and so I just wanted to apologize.
I had been through like 10 or 12 of your vids and there weren't any replies from you to anybody and so I just kinda went off. 😳 Sorry man.
Hey Rhett, this is GL. Great video! I have always wondered about this and I’m so glad to hear their answers. While I prefer a great tube amp, ya gotta change with the times!
Another solid vid Rhett! For me, I've settled happily on using a tube amp with a modeler in tandem through an ABY switch - it works so well. 'A' channel into the pedal board then to the tube amp, 'B' straight into the modeler. Helps keep the pedal board focused while providing the convenience and range of possibilities of modelers on stage, esp. when needing strange or unusual effects for specific songs. Otherwise, the modeler can be used to help enrich the tube amp's gorgeous tone and add layers to it, to a greater or lesser degree with a volume/expression pedal control for the modeler.
There is a reason why a good tube amp is the benchmark for tone and feel. Any modeller I've tried, and many I own, always fall short to my personal benchmarks. Great tools though and I will continue to own both and look forward to seeing how they continue to develop. From a value perspective, digital will almost always devalue quicker than a great piece of analog gear.
The moment you’re using IEMs and/or your amp is off stage or a distance from you, the ‘advantages’ of a tube amp raised here become irrelevant.
Some of the reasons why I hate that shit ;-) (can be totally necessary at times thought)
I love these types of videos. Thanks.
Great video Rhett, good to see the titan builders have an open mind regarding the digital platform these days.
I really like what Synergy Amps is doing. The modules are designed by the amp builders themselves. I have a 2 module rack mount rig with their tube power amp. I bought six modules, some from the builders in this video and I think I'm getting the best of both worlds. Each module is 2 channels and has knobs, there's no secret settings page, I can tweak it on the fly.
I guess people never heard of Carr amps. Compact, all tube, high quality and with built in attenuators. Literally has all the benefits the pro modelling people are raving about and all the “feel” that amp lovers are raving about. Never understood why more amp companies don’t have attenuators built in their amps.
EverettDudgeon138 I have two high-end boutique amps with attenuators, and while they’re wonderful and I love playing them loud, turn down the volume and stop moving the air and they don’t sound or respond as well as they do at volume. Neither will digital. Turn up a digital FRFR system to the same volume and they’re very different, just as a tube amp is. It’s getting really hard to tell the difference between the two.
I totally understand the live feel of the tube amp experience and these guys validated this point for me which was great. Remember though that there is also non-tube (transistor) analog amplification and modeling that is non-digital.
Great video man, I can really relate to this! The digital side of things is really good now and sounds great on recordings but it really doesn’t feel the same. Different tools for different jobs I think
Something I'm surprised to not hear any of them mention is simplicity and repairability since, to me, those are the biggest appeals of tube amps (especially handwired). Even if the tone and feel are indistinguishable, I'd trade features and versatility for the peace of mind that I know exactly what's happening behind the scenes, and that if something goes wrong I can fix it the same day. That said, I'm not broadly "against" digital instrument technology - modelers absolutely have their place just like digital keyboards have their place alongside acoustic pianos. When one suits your particular living situation or performing situation better, the other just won't do.
I use Marshalls and love them. For me personally it's NOT so much about sound- prior to modeling you could get pedals to sound really good. Modelers sound really good- I think that's a fact. Still for me there's nothing more inspiring than being in the same room with a good tube amp. It feels and responds very much differently than any modeler. To me that's all that matters because it INSPIRES me to play differently.
Exactly! I'll hear people say "The audience won't know the difference" but I will! I play better when I know I sound good to my ears. We're always our own worst critic it seems!
Yes sir 👍 it's mainly the feel thing for me! No Fn doubt. But sound and recording mainly there's not much difference and actually in a blind test hard to tell difference .. for me at least and then I have found at the end of the day nobody cares or can tell but me lol 🤘🤘
Excellent points of view and they are both valid. Love your face when interviewing Mike Soldano and someone is riffing in the background, I can see the “oh no, I hope the audio is good”.
Dude is absolutely ripping in the background of the Soldano shop. Love it!
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair
Better questions for a physicist.
Electrons are electrons are electrons.
Electron flow is electron flow is electron flow.
The speaker doesn't know the difference, it moves air.
Your ear hears the pressure waves in the air.
I sell abacuses. My mortgage is dependent upon abacus sales. There's something tactile you just don't get from a calculator. This intangible that can't be put into words, however conveniently.
Unless this is a quote I don’t know about, there is no way anyone sells abacuses anymore.
I saw Metallica last year about this time at a big arena and was seated high above the audio engineer's station. It was an awesome show but something about their distorted tone that did not connect with me. I later found out that they used the AXE FX III. The cleans were fantastic but something about the distortion wasn't striking a chord. A few years ago I saw QOTSA at a smaller venue with full stage volume and cranked amps. I felt the sound was a powerful punch and loved every minute of it! Cheers
A small venue sounded better than being way up at the back of an arena? That's never happened before.
@@brinepacer That is a good point. So let me expand. First, it was the Legacy Arena in Birmingham (not that big compared to other arena/stadium concerts I've been to). Lars drumming mix was overpowering James and Kirk's distorted riffs/solos, as if they were having a hard time cutting through the mix. I'm assuming that Metallica has the top of the line sound guys, so I'm sure they knew what they were doing. Maybe the cleans/edge of break up sounded good (like The Unforgiven) because Lars wasn't drumming as hard. Like I said, something about the distortion (and maybe the mix) didn't connect with me. Cheers
@@brinepacer Just want to make clear that I have both a Hotone Ampero with a Bogner Harlow (with the Neve Transformer) in front of it hooked up to my studio monitors and also a full sized pedal board going into a clean pedal platform tube amp. There are positives and negatives to both...Also, forgot to mention that I saw my fav band, Polyphia, at a small dive/music bar in Bham two years ago. Tim and Scott used Axe FXII I'm assuming straight to the board and also feeding a signal to the power amp stage of the half stack Orange Amps (for stage volume). Same issue, their guitars had a hard time cutting through the mix (granted it was the very first show of the tour and I'm assuming the sound guys were not at the same level as the Metallica sound guys). Would be nice to get a pro audio guys perspective on why they wouldn't be cutting through the mix but I'm sure it would be hard without knowing all the variables. Cheers!
@@eanroad If they were using LP guitars, that would be one reason; my Teles cut the shit out of anyone using a Les Paul live onstage. And they cut through the mix, no problem. Plug and play; people should stop pissing around for hours with modelers and play their guitars
Living in an apartment, I spent the first 10 months of learning to play with a Kemper through monitors or headphones. Just recently took the plunge with first tube amp (Tone King Imperial) and I am blown away by the feel difference. I can't bring myself to put the guitar down each night... There is just something so pleasing and enjoyable about the real amp experience.
Good job Rhett. Interesting and surprisingly objective perspectives from some “real amp” industry gurus. I’ve been using multi effects units for a long time which led me to buying a Helix 3+ years ago. Although I primarily play the Helix direct to PA with a small FRFR, I also spend a good amount of time replicating those same tones into a hybrid set up using Helix’s excellent preamp models and Fx chains into an old MusicMan 112/65 tube amp. Like you said, guitarists have so many great tools today. I do see a future for building hybrid amps with modeling front end and tube back end technology...
Watch Joe Bonamassa playing “Why Does It Take So Long To Say Goodbye” live. He puts an incredible and subtle feedback into the final ending chord, and he moves in and turns toward his amps to get it going. It gives me goosebumps. I think that is “feel” at its very best.
Yeah, there’s just something about getting that natural feedback that hits the spot. Alice In Chains live in 2014 had a performance of Dirt and it was just awesome because of the heavenly guitar feedback intro.
Come on guys. Anyone who played a fender Tonemaster amp is digging it.
Eddie Wagner You’ve just ended the debate. Well played.
They are great. It will replace full SS amps at some point.
@@jacksonl1953 bullshit. Plexi
The Tonemaster's sound great at low volumes. But if you are going for a pushed amp sound then the tonemaster's don't do justice compared to the tube amp. Again comes down to a convenience thing and how loud you can go, but if you're fortunate enough to be able to play a pushed amp, the tube amp is the way to go.
Yeah I spent an entire day playing a Tonemaster Deluxe Reverb, and several versions of the tube Deluxe Reverbs.... 65 DRRI (with various speakers), 68 silverfaces, a handwired 64 Custom Deluxe, a 66 vintage blackface Deluxe. I did like the Tonemaster, and really tried to buy it... but in the end the 64 Custom Deluxe won me over, and yes its nearly 3x the price and I didn't care one bit and don't regret it. The Tonemaster does sound good, most of the time--until it gets loud. But there is something missing that I couldn't put my finger on and it bugged me enough that I just couldn't buy one.
Fun Video Rhett. As a weekend warrior bassist; for the longest time I was staunchly anti-modeler but I remember when the first PODs came out and to me they were toys. I've always been content to lug 25-year-old 100lb SVT and adjacent cabs from bar gig to bar gig, and put in the money to maintain it.
At some point in time, I came into possession, a Drasp Modded DL4. And I loved it and I still have it. It had a ton of versatility and the only people that knew it was 1's and 0's emulating delays were other musicians. I still clung to my SVT however.
Fast forward to about a year ago and I took the plunge on an HX Effects and again, fell in love with it. It's a lovely piece of kit. Here I have pretty much any effect I could ever want at my disposal and I can integrate the few boutique pedals I still have in my collection into the HX Effects.
But I still clung to that SVT. Well enough frustrations trying to maintain a now 30-year-old bass amp and I'm currently looking at putting together a Helix Rack and Poweramp rig to thump my 8x10. What's exciting about this is that I'm not just locked into the SVT sound. I can experiment with a ton of different amps for the same price as a current model SVT-VR, but I'll have at my disposal, Gallien Kruger Models, Mesa Boogie 400+ Models, plus all effects models are there and the cab IRs I could load up for recording or FOH/IEM reinforcement and still power a cab for on stage.
Will I be getting rid of my tube amps anytime soon? No I won't, as I agree with the feel component of "real amps". I keep around an Orange Rocker 15 Terror. It's a great tube amp.
But the technology for modeling has come so far since it's inception that it's really difficult to overlook the convenience, value for money and flexibility of Helix, AxeFX, Kemper et al. I can keep these fussy tube amps at home and take Helix Rack/Poweramp and Cab to a gig and here is where I feel like you'll be able to emulate at least in close proximity, that feel that tube amps give. My guitar player (A Dual Rec fanboy) and I are both looking to build a "one rack to rule them all" setup.
I think as with anything, the most holistic ideology is somewhere in between the extremes.
These were great interviews..When talking to Soldano that sound n the background was , awesome, sounds like a cool place to work.
That quote from Joe Morgan, priceless. But, a good analogy, ha ha. I use 3 types of guitar amps, just depends on the situation. I have a tube (modded '75 Twin Reverb), an analog solid state (Orange Crush 35RT) and an HX Stomp. I love the tone of the Twin, I love the reliability and sound from the Orange, but I also love the vast amount of options the Stomp provides. I'm an old school guitarist as people would say (Guitar-pedals-mic'd amp). But the Stomp gives you so many options, even in conjunction with an amp. I can't ever see me not having a tube amp, but I can see me not having a solid state. I play at church mainly these days, and the Stomp is great for that environment. But, you have a PA with a sound engineer there. There's sometimes you don't have that for practice or to just jam, and the need for an actual amp is needed (I know, headrush or FRFR, but that's still an amp). The modeler (being the Stomp for me) not only has the ability to give you multiple amp/cab/IR/mics/etc.., it also gives you the chance to have and play effects most people would never be able to afford (for instance, a leslie cab, or an analogman prince or king of tone). I used it with the leslie setting and a fuzz face (can't remember what Helix calls them) into my Twin, HOLY MOLY. I can't ever see the tube amp going away, at least not in the next decade. But, I can see the modeler world expanding more, and the next generation growing up not knowing what it sounds like to play into an actual tube amp.
I've played digital modelers and tube amplifiers. Aside from the feedback loop that occurs when you have an amp interacting with a load(speaker), the thing that many modelers don't do for me is react to volume changes in the same way that a tube amp does. I spend a lot of my time using guitar volume to jump between various shades of clean to high gain. Some can clean up good, but at expense of that feedback loop. With my tube amps. even at a clean setting, I can get notes to do the liquid sustain thing. I know many players will use a compressor to achieve this, but that also has an effect on your overall dynamics and kinda defeats the purpose in my case.
After a year of gigging with the Helix, I went back to tube amps and have never looked back.
trevinormatt could you imagine someone like J Mascis using a Kemper or helix?
My Kemper responds to volume changes just like my valve amps do. 🙂
This. And of course, not all amps are dynamic and sensitive, but when you play one... You know. No substitute. It's "part of the instrument". It's not just a "setting" like on a pedal or patch.
@@professionalprocrastinator8182 I too have had modelers that can dynamically clean up, but they don't produce feedback in the same way as playing the actual amp.
For instance, with my Oranges, I can roll off for clean, but still coax feedback and sustain because the amp is physically reacting to the speaker and then physically reacting with my pickups and strings.
Great interviews!! Mainly the analogy from Morgan :-). Thanks Rhett!
This is a really good video Rhett!
The feel of an amp is everything! There's just something about the way that a tube amp interacts with speakers and then interacts with our ears, hands, and the guitar...it just feels and sounds organic and a modeler (as good as it may be or become) will just never do that for me. With that being said, I've been guilty of using modeling pedals and Line 6 Pod units in place of my tube amps because it's just logistically easier and gets the job done. I love the idea of these hybrid amps too! I just scored a H&K Tubemeister 18 today, hoping that a tiny 3 channel all tube 18W head with an FX loop AND the Redbox out will be versatile enough for me lol.
J Batista As a tube amp guy who’s had modelers, add a good FRFR behind you and the complaint of no “feedback” and feel will go away quickly. They’re getting really good now.
@@8sigreg To be honest, I hadn't really spent any time learning about the FRFR cabinets (I don't gig enough to justify the cost), but I did some research and watched a few videos after I read your reply. There's some really good sounding stuff out there (like the Headrush) and I totally understand why they would sound better with a modeler rig!
Once I understood how analog amps worked I was like:
"what? I can only sound awesome if I play it so loud my neighbors will call the police?!"
And started saving for the Kemper I now own.
@@Ascoundrel
Yeah, I don't think so. What's "best" for you might not be the "best" for me.
You see, I gave it a try. I owned a 5w bugera at one point. I played it most of the time attenuated at 1w. It was pretty good, it was quiet, and I liked it.
But could I do this with a jcm900? Or an AC30? No. But I like those sounds. Now what?
Enters the Kemper.
Fortunately, people have more options these days. The Kemper is perfect for my needs right now (playing and recording in the bedroom). I keep my mind open though. Maybe some day something else that I prefer will come along.
I couldn't possibly be bothered with getting all the gear you have though. I mean, good for you, but I'm just not that much into gear. Even if I was i wouldn't have the space for all that.
Great; use it at home. I'll continue using tube amps onstage.
Yorke2 - Yeah that makes sense... spend 3 Grand to please your neighbors instead of yourself and actual fans of guitar music.
@@enorbet2 yes, I spent 3 grand. Yes, my neighbors are super pleased. And yes I'm miserable.
Rhett , what a great video. Here is my story and why. Started out in the early 80's with a 100 watt Randall. Worked fine but I was a complete beginner. Anyways I played and listened to punk so back then it only mattered if it was loud. Roll forward a couple years and I found the gospel of SRV. That lead me into Strats and tube amps specifically a Fender Bassman. I went straight into a Dr Z Max Jr NR after that . What a great amp! I experienced the beauty of feedback and versatility . Been with Dr Zs since then but due to divorce I lost my home studio and moved into a van. This is where it gets interesting . I had left my amps and recording gear at my buddies studio but since it's not mine I hardly ever played my amps. To practice I would run my Tele into a interface and use AmpliTube to get my tone. While it works ok it got me thinking about digital and practical space in my van.
I still keep my pedalboard in my van with my guitar and just plug into whatever amp is available to gig but the consistency is not so good.
I am looking to go with a Helix Stomp into a Quilter 202 with one of their small portable cabs. Versatility and portability for a guitar player who is basically now a hobbyist but wants to play fun local pup gigs.
Yeah, if I had a proper home I'd probably get a small combo tube amp because I sure do like that traditional mojo.
Hope my story helps anyone else out there in their quest for tone . Y'all be good to each other and have fun playing. Doug Owens @rollinghaus
Man you must work damn hard. You have two YT channels, a podcast, a live stream, you upload standalone videos at least once a week, contribute to Rick's videos and you play in several bands. When do you find time to write, edit, practise guitar, rehearse and keep your wife grinning?!! You are a machine! Whatever you're doing, keep at it, i love your work.
I’m more of a digital player. Amps are great I’ve own many but my wallet and my back is way happier since I made the move to the helix. I see it as this. Apartment players are more to use anything digital house owners are going to use what ever they want. Same goes for live use. Having something digital is easy one two three your done and with a amp it’s back and forth till you load it all in. Also it’s more chances of something being stolen while you load in gear with a full amp rig. Either way it could happen but this is just my opinion. I see the next thirty years as full digital age. Tube amps won’t exist as much and what we own now will be considered vintage much like old acoustic guitars from the 1800s. I can see guitars and basses become more of a computer also. For a example look what line 6 is doing now and from there what is next? My bet is strings someone wants to make life long strings that never need to be replaced.
the Helix is an absolutely beastly piece of gear.
Poser
My back certainly agrees to me moving to headrush. So does my car's fuel consumption. Win win for me.
@@JimBob-oy9bs that insult has been meaningless for more than a generation. Try again.
I agree.
TL;DR: digital needs to go its own way and then will truly become essential, but tube amps will always be the "real thing" for 20th century sounds as digital wasn't around for most of the classic rock era.
It's like using a Martin-style flattop vs an archtop for acoustic jazz. An archtop is period-accurate, but if you're looking to create and go forward musically, a flattop can do the job perfectly. Of course, a lot of archtops sound more percussive and project better acoustically, so there are still occasions where they are still technically preferable, but they are few and far between in the age of widespread miking and DI.
Digital amp makers are hinting more and more at going their own way, by stopping the modeling trend and looking at what they could achieve that tube amps can't. I look forward to that, even if tube amps, as period-accurate tools of the classic rock era, are of course more authentic if you're doing Led Zeppelin covers for a living.
I believe everyone remembers the first time they got that 'feeling' off a tube amp. For me, that never happened with digital or solid state gear. Tube sound is truly inspirational!
Great video! Feel is important, but the convenience factor of using a Helix at church, rehearsals and small gigs which is what I mostly play is huge. I do sometimes miss using my amps live, but Line 6 does an awesome job with their amp models which I think are really close. Thanks again for the videos!
Great post Rhett! I’m with you, a hybrid player, I own some great tube amps at the moment and plan on acquiring more, I also own a Kemper Stage and a Helix LT. I don’t think I’ll ever get rid of the real deals, but the Kemper and Helix are the absolute cat’s meow for quick setup, tear down and consistent tone quality from venue to venue. When we’re the only band playing and they don’t care about stage volume or there isn’t a decent PA with monitors we bring real amps, but more and more venues won’t tolerate ANY amount of stage volume.We also play small towns where people live close to the bars and clubs and call the cops if they can hear music from their front porch. So the only way to play your 100 watt Marshall or Mesa Boogie and achieve “your tone” is now to “profile” it and load it into your Kemper so you can play it anywhere without being stuck with some poor backlined Hot Rod Deluxe that’s been flogged from creation to apocalypse.
I switched back to real amps from the Kemper for the exact reason Dave said, the FEEL. And having to dig through menus was annoying and made it less inspiring to play.
What happens to the feel of a tube amp and cab when it's miked up in another room, which is how the vast majority of stuff is recorded? I genuinely ask because I've never done this, it's always been either tube amp in room or modeler with in ears. Is that scenario comparable in feel to a modeler, since that's essentially what a modeler is modeling?
In my experience a mic'd tube amp in another room is a step down. But how far down it is is dependent on a lot of things. Quality of monitors, mic pre's, record method if any. It can be ok, or quite bad. It's different than a modeler though. If you use good mics and monitors and maintain an analog signal path it can still feel quite nice.
When I worked in a studio, one album I recorded with a producer there had exactly one spot of feedback on the album - the end note of a song sustained. It was an overdub. This was achieved by putting the guitar player next to the desk, boost his channel in the studio and turn up the monitors. No one who listened to it would know the difference.
Rhett, you & the guys nailed this mate..I’m hybrid too & really appreciated this insight
I agree 100%. I use the Fractal Axe-FX III for convenience, consistency, lack of maintenance and flexibility, but there is nothing like plugging into a proper Mesa Boogie or Friedman amp and cranking it up a little. THat sizzle and organic dynamic feel of playing those things hasn't been captured in a modeller yet. I still use the Axe FX though as it sounds really really good and the trade off is worth it to me. Great content Rhett! Good job man. Keep em coming.
Dave Friedman can't find the Presence control on the Friedman model in Helix, but he can assemble a Friedman amp by hand, including the Presence knob. The feedback between guitar and cabinet is due to the projection system, not to the circuitry in the signal chain. It's interesting to me how many general amp nerds blame a perceived lack of tone on the onstage projection, as if they've never played with their own Tube Amp (TM) backstage in an iso room.
johnbeamon Yep. Exactly.
What about a SHULL Amplification The Lark 1x12“ Combo? I would buy it.
yes.
Pedals & Friends I'm in!
My thoughts:
- I also love and use both tube amps and modelers. I have several tube amps as well as a Helix Floor.
- For me, nothing is currently beating the simplicity of setup/tear down and convenience of transportation than my Helix.
- I do agree that the feel of playing through a cranked tube amp is missing from playing on modelers in a live situation. However, if a good modeled tone is sculpted properly, I don't exactly miss this feeling.
Hybrid amps were discussed, but I was hoping for this video to discuss the option of using Boss's Tube Amp Expander specifically. In my limited field testing, I found that using it as a direct box for one of my amp heads truly did bring that feeling of playing through a cranked tube amp back. It was disorienting at first because I was expecting to hear my guitar from behind me, but I still only heard it in front of me from my monitor wedge. I noticed the way I played, held the neck, fretted every note changed compared to using my Helix for all signal flow.
What thoughts do you have about the Tube Amp Expander?
Nice! I always wanted to hear their opinions, i tried to get a answer from some amp builders but never got a decent answer... but that is sad, nobody knows amps better than them so hearing more differencies and details would be soooo important
“Even better than the feel thing”
Child...
Rick C “take me higher”
I’m a drummer and it reminds me of electric drums versus acoustic drums. There’s roles for electric kits, but they will never overtake acoustic drums. Same with the guitar world, modelers have a role, but will never fully dethrone the mighty tube amplifier.
Exactly. I will always prefer playing through tube amp because I don't like the FRFR sound. I prefer a tube head + real cab.
But whatever floats one boat... If one like the FRFR, then go for it.
@@viniciusbertucci A great comparison.. It takes experience to figure that out.
Could you really tell the difference between electric vs acoustic drums without actually seeing them? That's the real question here. The thing about amp technology is that it's improved so much that you could give someone sound clips of a tube and solid state amp and most people would not be able to tell the difference, let alone an audience.
@@SynZ777 In clips it makes no difference. It mostly comes down to quality of production. Now playing through them is a very different experience and sound.
Also, just for the record, I think we should stop caring about what the audience thinks, specially because most of them are not musicians. We should think about ourselves first, what we like playing through, how do we feel about our gear.
As a guitar player I much prefer playing with acoustic drums. You don’t feel electric drums, you have to hear them in the monitor with vocals and keys..
Thanks Rhett. The most salient point for me was what you said about "todays guitarist." To that point, I've learned that I must be scaleable depending on the gig, the artist, the venue, fly date(s) throw and go, etc. Everything from multi tube amp rigs and death star boards to Helix, and damn near everything in between. As a long time dyed in the wool multi tube amp guy, there's nothing like the feel of moving that air with a big tube stereo rig. However, in my exp. it's a necessity to be super flexible and still always make sure it sounds killer. Cheers
So I am playing for 13 years soon and I always played transistor amps so no tubes for years. Then my mom bought a fender champ 12 red knob tube Amp for her and I felt in love with the sound and how it interacts with the guitar and everything. And now I'm saving up for a hughes and kettner grand meister deluxe 40 and a bogner 4x10 box this sounds so great together and it inspires me so much. I really love the feel you have with a tube Amp and will never change it cause you can't generate that witch a digital version of it.
"Everyone talked about how it feels, not necessarily how it sounds" - well of course. In the days when modelers were shit, the sound argument was easy. Now you have to come up with something different. Inspiring, magical, open sounding, moving air, easier to find the presence knob or whatever else. As for inspiring, what I think really is inspiring is the ability to record good guitar tone at home without having to spend a ton of money on gear or driving your neighbors crazy. And this is no thanks to tube amps.
And vintage guitar guys say... “the old wood man”
I don't like the word "feeling". The tone is nailed, but the general SOUND is not.
Reason for that is the FRFR vs real cab. They are completely different sounds. One is a mic'ed tone, the other is a raw tone pushed forward.
Well, use it if you like it. I have a few friends that are great musicians and love the Kemper. I always get in trouble when playing orchestra, or choir gigs, (with my menacing 1x10" Princeton Reverb ffs) but have to say, playing rock stuff at superlow levels feels just wrong. It's like dressing up for a mud bath, misses the point.
i believe mark knofler, nick johnson and guthrie govan (and that's just a few) will disagree since they are using a kemper live and recording situation. as a guitar player i find their opinion counts more than an amp businessmen manufacturer owners which obviously has a clear interest for saying what they are saying.
I didn't know they actually record with it. I notice during shows how bands share a modeller when they tour together which is the ultimate convience.
Hey Rhet, Cool subject/interviews, thanks for that! Tubes (valves) for me in general but have recently invested in the BluGuitar Amp 1 Mercury edition and am really enjoying that... Definitely a golden age for gear - agreed... Cheers :)
You need to put those links in the Description Rhett. Great video as always!