DON'T use Acetone to repair ABS parts!
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- Опубліковано 31 тра 2024
- In the previous video we destroyed the 3D printed ABS rim and instead of printing a new part I managed to repair it. Instead of acetone which is the common solvent I used methyl ethyl ketone or MEK for short to buy me more time with such large parts. I started with a 50/50 weight ratio of MEK and ABS which turned out to be perfect. It is however recommended to add a little MEK a day before you're going to use it because it will get thicker over time.
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Chapters:
0:00 Intro
1:40 Epic montage
2:50 Dissolving the ABS
6:28 Repairing the rim
6:55 New way to insert inserts
8:05 The result
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Hi everyone! I’m not a chemist, but I think that this is a very interesting topic. This was an eyeopener for me personally and if you have suggestions, leave a comment! Have an awesome day!
Make sure that they are using MEK and not MEK-P as in resin hardener.
Je locatie tag staat aan. Weet niet of het de bedoeling was 😅
@@RockerGraphics Bedankt voor het melden. Het voegt eigenlijk ook niks toe, miss beter om weg te halen. Ik ben er nu wel wat opener over omdat ik hier niet woon en alleen mijn studio heb. Mooi gescheiden zo :)
@@properprinting ja zeker! Ziet er beter uit man. Sommige chemicaliën zijn zwaarder dan lucht. Wij hebben bijv de afzuiging dicht op de grond. Omdat styrene is zwaarder dan lucht. Als je meer met chemicaliën gaat werken kijken even wat ze doen. Voordat ko ben ;) kijk naar je volgende projecten uit man
@@RockerGraphics Bedankt voor de tip! Ik had al gelezen dat wanneer je het voor elkaar krijgt om fosfeengas te produceren met chloroform, zuurstof en UV je verkeerd bezig bent😆
So glad to see he did the most scientific test of all, the "Pausenbrot-Test", to test the suction
Haha I really like that word, almost as good as Kartoffelsalat😂 A Kartoffelsalat-Test would have ended a lot worse though🤣
@@properprinting You already made a can of '"Rübenkraut"' as spread.
Every single time a genuinely interesting and original video!
I wonder if using acetone or MEK smoothing on your next print might increase external layer bonding and also help on sealing any air permiability.
what about designing through holes and later coat 5mm threaded rods in abs glue and stick them in the holes?
similar to iron rods in concrete but instead of beforehand it's after
Wow, that's an interesting approach! So awesome that this method of adding those inserts makes your idea possible! If the rim fails at those inserts I'll see if I can make reinforced 3D prints like these. Thanks for this idea!
@@properprinting advantage could be that the contact area is way bigger/longer
5:49 I see you put large chunks to dissolve ABS parts for your glue. Did you consider chopping or grinding it into smaller bits to make it faster and more uniform? I use flush cutters to cut them into lentil size, they dissolve nicely. I'd use a blender or burr grinder but I don't have any spare to use only for plastics.
That would've been faster indeed. I also experienced that some parts were quite badly stuck to the bottom of the can. Over the course of a couple of days I stirred it frequently and it turned into one homogenous paste. Thanks for your suggestion which will make this a lot easier for the future!
The way I get perfect vertically aligned inserts is by not putting the insert all the way down, just leave approximately 2mm out, and then with a flat peace of metal push it all the way down. The flat surface of the plastic where you are putting the insert will assure the metallic peace will be parallel to it and the insert perpendicular, leaving it perfectly vertical.
since you are screwing 2 half rims together, you may as well abs glue them in place as well.
Just get Loong screws this way you can also keep the layers tougher
Oh this was a very nice video Jon, and it was very nice meeting you at Formnext
Thanks Zachary! It was nice meeting you too
While bonding ABS can be done with various types of plastic adhesives (plastic glues), a few of the most common include cyanoacrylate, 2 component epoxy, structural acrylic, and UV curable adhesives.
Do you think it would increase the strength if you vapor smoothed the whole rim? Just enough to bond the outer layers.
No I don't think so. Stefan made a great video about exactly this topic ua-cam.com/video/yJHcoFY4er8/v-deo.html
Awesome video as always. The ABS "glue" is very very cool, i hope you will experiment more on that on the future.
Ps: the rim will hold (i hope XD)
Thanks! I've placed that permanent air extraction system to do more experiments!
Very nice love your videos mate , good to see someone having a go and experimenting with different methods of madness !
My projects go just like this...distraction after distraction after distraction to finial get stuff done...lol Thank you for sharing your projects, the way they really go.
So if the glue consists of 50% ABS and 50% MEK then when the MEK is evaporated it will leave the inserts fastened with less ABS then if you use soldering tool?
💡 what if you could apply a bonding chemical between layers while printing. A a wide sponge 🧽 roller that whipes/rolls over the printer after one layer is finished printing and then returning back to a parkingposition where it will be soaked for the nextlayer.
Can you please do one where you lightly paint the whole rim? Or at least the interior part? That should significantly improve layer adhesion and nearly guarantee airtightness.
People would actually make similar glue to repair the body of Citroen Mehari's, they're made out of ABS-like material and would get brittle and crack so it was common plastic to use old spare parts and melt them in a jar with acetone to make some repair glue
discovering your channel was the best thing that happened to me this year. as soon as i get my money i will support you!
Wow, that's awesome! So glad to read that discovering my channel did you so well!
Where the bolts are to big to go all the way thru, you can print holes for smaller metal rods that will fit, and then ABS glue the metal rods in to give more strength to your layers
This is a very interesting approach! This was mentioned by someone else too and I think that this is something I would consider doing next when it fails!
@@properprinting if not when :P
best youtube channel, not just printing related. best sub i have.
Insert rods with your abs glue skipping threaded inserts entirely. You could even try experimenting with embedding perpendicularly printed segments rather than rods. Almost a weave-like or ply construction even might work.
Mooie video John! Ben echt benieuwd om het resultaat te zien van de volledige test.
Bedankt! Ik ook, dit wordt echt gaaf!
Great video. I remember James Bruton at X-Robots using ABS paste back in the day. Mahalo for sharing! : )
Thanks, this stuff is great and I definitely will explore it more!
I think it will work but I don't see it catching on as a spare wheel.
"Sorry love we have to wait two days for the spare wheel to be printed, then you will be on your way again" 😆
Haha who doesn't have a 3D printer ready in the back of the car😆
So would it be stronger printing it in parts and gluing them together? Also let's say, your wheel will work, for a short time anyway!
Chances are that this is the case, but I want to do that automatically ;)
Have you thought about annealing the material? Or covering it in resin?
If cant use rods. I think you should try use bolts for wood (fix) direct to plástic ir with a undersize guide hole. It might perform better in a 100% infill than and brass insert been pulled out in the opposite direction that was installed.
Or made some kind of holes to the brass insert to Let the molten ABS or glue get in. This Will provide More mechanical strenth.
Also, you may drill a hole after install the brass insert, and put a pin to secure then.
Great channel! Sorry for muy english
It will just break somewhere else, but great fix! I still think carbon fiber filled nylon would be better!
It's almost time!
The inserts must be much longer.
I remember your struggles to join two filament ends together, have you tried the method you used at 3:30 for joining the filament ends?
To get a good boned on the outer surface you could acetone the part. Just remember it will make the part shine black. You will need one big tub lol.
We used to call that stuff "Methyl Ethyl Death".
Sounds like a cheers before chugging this stuff🤣
1:36 Where did you get that fan from? Spec? Thx!
Hi, if you can weld two printed parts together, why not place threaded insert between these to parts and weld those together?
Imagine now using that print to make molds to cast a aluminum wheels
Its totaly bonkers! But also cool, if you dare to do it, you do it.....
Helemaal top ga zo door
I am surpriesed, that the glued part is stronger than it was before. I myself would have re-melted the rim using a big oven and a lot of salt but to do the remelting process the part has to be printed with 100% infill and there is a slight deformation (x/y shrinkage z growth). looking forward to your next test
If the chemical bond is stronger you should be able to print it in multiple parts and could make a bigger overall tire
Interesting comment! I now realize that I didn't mention the print orientation. I don't think that this is stronger than the optimal print orientation, just the layer bonding has increased (what I assume). This means that the diameter is still the limiting factor.
@@properprinting that hadn't even crossed my mind. I love your unique style of presenting, I'm glad I found this channel 😀
The ABS glue looks like Plastidip 😉
From my experience with acetone it takes 24 hours with that much surface area to dissolve abs into abs putty that i use to fix mistakes in prints. For chemical welding i just have injection needle and syringe. Needles end is scarred couple millimeters from the sharp tip using (cheap) plyers as filing guide. When there is some damage done to surface just twist it off. Since material is hardened and you have created fault line it will snap from that point removing sharp tip. Tip i suggest you flatten and then put some tape around it before taking it to metal trash so no one will hurt them selfs with it. For the rest just sad the end for bit and now you have way to dispense acetone to target area very accurately. The needle part lasts i dont know how long and syringe takes year of constant use. Eventually inside dries so much rubber seal does not want to come out. You can extend its life with little drop of oil into back end of plunger but those syringes are cheap so its up to you. I use around 1mm diameter needle and syringe is 1ml in size. This is good size for basic 3D print fixes, but for large parts bigger syringe might be better, not sure about needle.
For welding it self, just find the place where it ripped, put marker on both parts with paint marker for instance, then apply acetone to both parts and indicate its place with marker for parts that need it. Then add pressure to fuse the material and after put bead of acetone on the seam so it seals the surface nice and tidy leaving not much to see where it broke. You can hide the seam with applying acetone and rubbing with needles shaft to mold the material, but this does leave white marks least on black ABS and PLA (wont melt per say, but you can try smooth the parts a bit with this method)
If there is no parts missing this works fine. If there is then you can fill and build up voids with thick abs putty. Give it little flame and blow it out to dry it rather fast so you can continue to build up surface or else it takes days to weeks for all the acetone exit the print and some parts might start chance shape depending structure and how much abs there was.
Also if you have low infill like 25% that i use for most peaces acetone vapors from curing will leak to internal space turning that into flexible, so depending how much putty you are using in hole and do you apply it as layers using burning to cure it faster and how thin the putty is it can take from day to week for properly everything to cure. For 100% print i'm not certain havent done much of those, but i'm guessing you should wait said week, just to be sure it has cured properly, or you have failure and can see by feeling the material what ever it is properly cured. This would be pretty good idea to test in controlled conditions.. maybe good topic for CNC kitchen to try.
Don´t know if i would feel comfortable letting the fan suck in the aceton vapour-air mix, guessing the fan uses a brushed motor the aceton air mix could act as an afterburnnner if the concentrations reach igniteable levels. I used aceton several times to coldweld ABS, usually i try to use a flat pan filled with aceton where i can lay in the surface that should be glued for a few secons so the aceton starts to disolve, take out the parts and stick them together immediately and press for one or two minutes or keep it pressed to gether with some clamps. If youre designing parts that should be glued with this method afterwards its good to add around 0,5-1mm mm height that can act as "glue" that will eventually squeese out a bit or compact while pressing.
I was faced with joining PLA-CF to PP-GF and about to spend large sums on special order high tech bonding product. I then did some tests with what I had on hand. Polypropylene is same as plastic bags of course and is difficult. I had no idea what might work. Super glue in a medium viscosity form worked well enough to do real world testing of this technical part inside an engine bay. We will see how it behaves with the range of temperatures there. The polymer of the ethyl cyanoacrylate degrades at 150 deg C.
"Polypropylene is same as plastic bags..."? Here in Sweden it's mostly PE-HD...
@@andersdoverud9046 my mistake, you are correct. Thanks 👍
I've made a lot of assembling of 3D-printed ABS parts using ABS dissolved in acetone. And it is fine if used like one uses glue, but if the seam gets too large(I don't know, 0.5-1mm or so) the evaporated solvent forms bubble. It's like expanded plastics and sadly weak as one.
Can you mix the "Methyl Ethyl Keton" with "Abs" about 75/25%, then brush it all over the rim!, i think it will fill any porosity/ cracks and gives you a stronger outer shell, it might help with your experiment, so exciting for the next video, you can do it :)
Thanks for the suggestion! I was thinking of doing that, but because CNCKitchen showed that this didn't improve the strength of the parts I haven't looked at it further ua-cam.com/video/yJHcoFY4er8/v-deo.html I have some different tricks up my sleeve ;)
@@properprinting I saw that video link, my suggestion was inspired from what you have said, that the glued joint is stronger, its look like we are adding a thin layer of glue to your rim, CNCkitchen was using vapor only!
@@jralrazaz2828 hmm, that's true indeed! That'd be interesting to try! I might need to make a bit thinner, more like paint in order for it to work. The walls are 6mm thick though so I'm wondering how much strength it will actually add since it doesn't really penetrate. Although, every bit helps :)
It will also make the rim airtight so you might not need the inner tube anymore
For the inserts ive been using ones that are threaded on outside with your final thread on inside,Works well to do holes to outta size just a little smaller,Use drill tape then can glue inserts in place so got both a glue and a thread keeping in place,Had much better luck with them than straight up inserts like you been using
I think it will work
Why can't you have through bolts on your wheel?
If the bonded part is stronger, could you in theory print the wheel in parts fixing your max print bed size video? Does this open up a realm of much larger functional prints as well?
I think that this can indeed open up a realm of much larger functional parts! However, I didn't mention the print orientation in the video and I don't think that this is stronger than the optimal print orientation, just the layer bonding has increased (what I assume). So for this specific part I think that the diameter is still the limiting factor.
coudnt you use a natural fiber paintbrush to apply the mek?
I could and I've also bought a natural brush, but a toothbrush doesn't dissolve in MEK. I assume that was made out of PP or Nylon
Do you think it would be possible to make an acetone infused ABS filament? liquid low temp filament or something like that.
Yes I do and that's exactly one of the things I'm going to figure out next year!
Won't this suffer from insane shrinkage?
Looking forward to the testing! Using inset nuts from the inside of the rim would be stronger than using these threaded inserts. Can just cover the nuts with your ABS glue afterwards.
I didn't think of using nuts like these and they look stronger indeed! This insert type is different than the regular knurled ones you can find on Amazon though ;) Would be interesting to put this to the test, a bit similar as what CNCKitchen once did.
You can also put regular hexagonal nuts in the print while it is printing. Change the design so there are hexagonal slots the same length as the nuts. Pause the print just as the hexagonal slots are done. Place the nuts in the slots. Keep printing.
@@1234567890CAB I'm afraid that hexagonal nuts causes too much stress between the layer lines. Inserts distribute the force better.
I used MEK for ABS repairs 20 years ago in a factory I worked in. I didn't realize it was secret knowledge. Sorry for letting the community down all these years. :(
Maybe you can talk to markforged and try Carbon with endless wire
I think it will hold the weight!
if you are going to drive it and you have a bit of speed and you are going to brake, then i am very curious what will happen!
That's going to be so exciting!
I’m very curious about your new insert technic. You spoke about the problem of inserting them dead straight into your rim with a solder machine. Vector 3D build himself a device to dissolve that problem the title of that video is “DIY 3D Printed Tool Does PERFECT Inserts Every Time!”
But first let’s see how your solvent will fix the insert problem👍🏻
Groeten.
Like any good dutchman had a grow fan on standby
Haha, and I heavily invested in lights😂
I know this is suuuuuper nit-picky, but at 4:00 you say that the place where you glued it back together is stronger and it breaks in a different place, but isn't the piece inherently compromised because it's been tested and stretched before?
Also all things considered, even with two half printed test samples I'd think it's not weird that layers bonded with a chemical 'helping hand' are stronger then layers purely bonded with temperature, maybe in the far future we'll have some 'abs printers' with little acetone/glue sprayer in front of the print head.
Thanks for another interesting video :D
Great point! That didn't occur to me. It was a standing sample so my guess is that it's not as compromised as the standing samples because it failed so instantly.
ps. don't tell them my future ideas ;)
the new section is stronger because the solvent gives a "weld" with more penetration. You have deeper layer adhesion at the glued joint than you do at the other layer interfaces.
@@properprinting Keep in mind it is a flammable liquid and the hot end is close to ignition point. Be safe, interesting video.
@@bryanst.martin7134 acetone has an ignition temp of 400°C abs prints at about 240°C practically half. I think we're safe
@@properprinting You could probably also strengthen prints by giving them a coat of acetone after printing.
Can I echo the "please wear a respirator" comment from below? MEK is a controlled substance in a lot of jurisdictions for a reason, and even acetone is pretty dangerous to breathe. Those fumes aren't instantly sucked away by the fan and you really, really, really don't want them in your lungs.
If you are going to extract and then blow out of a building volatile chemicals, such as solvents like these, you need an explosion proofed fan and electrical installation of the fan. Normal electric motors and connections used in installing something like a fume hood fan can get hot enough to reach the flash point of many volatile chemicals. Since we are dealing with solvents specifically, there is still plastic that they can attack in even an all metal fan like what you are using here. The plastic insulating the wiring, the plastic in the connectors, and most importantly the insulating on the motor windings of the fan. This will cause short circuiting and arcing to happen, which will eventually ignite the solvent vapors or simply kill your fan motor. With your level of use, this might take a long time or it might happen really fast, depending on the chemicals, the plastics involved, and the concentration of the fumes in the air being extracted, but if you do get ignition it will either start a flash fire if you are lucky or it can actually detonate as a low grade explosive.
It's your life and property, but it is best to not play with fire, in this case, literally. A window open with a large fan blowing through it is actually safer since the air/fuel mixture is far leaner with the higher air flow and the motor is not subject to as much heat since the air stream cools it very well in such an open design. A vent fan like this has all the airflow restricted to a smaller area, raising the mixture ratio easier and exposing the motor to more solvent in a confined space where it is harder for it to cool.
I have a year worth of hours in the US as an industrial electrician and a 2 year technical degree from an accredited institution. Electrical code class brought up this specific type of installation since there are many industrial processes that use volatile chemicals or explosive powders (two most common for the powders were sugar and grain dust/flour).
Thanks for your warning! Indeed, the PVC insulator of the wires can dissolve. I've no idea if the fumes will come in contact with that, but better to assume it does. I am not an expert, but I read that the stochiometric ratio of acetone is 0,12kg/m3 www2.ece.rochester.edu/~jones/demos/stoich.html This fan moves 240m3 of air per hour (which is brushless btw.). I have no idea to do the math in this case, but it looks like that the relative small amount that is evaporated wouldn't be that high of a risk. I can imagine that when acetone smoothing at higher temperatures is a different story. I'd love your opinion on this since I like to learn new things.
@@properprinting Stoichiometric ratio does not need to be reached to damage the insulating qualities of the wiring. The insulation is not pure PVC. It might even be just polyvinyl. Either way, it has has additives in it that make more pliable without cracking and to not catch fire as easily which make it more vulnerable to attack by solvent.
The real risk is the motor windings since they are doing to be hot/warm when in use and have a very thin layer of insulation on them while being packed really close together. They also vibrate from the alternating current in them and undergo thermal cycles as the motor heats up and cools down. The windings in most shaded pole motors like the one in there usually use transformer/motor winding wire with a thin, highly insulating plastic coating and then might be dipped in a low viscosity epoxy or poly urethane, but this has lately been skipped to save money and weight and instead the connections to the winding wires are given a shot of Silastic adhesive (a high temp, semi-hard tin based silicone used in electronics) to protect this fragile area from work hardening because of vibrations and breaking because of metal fatigue.
I wouldn't worry too much about it with the gluing and that you are using a less volatile and higher flashpoint solvent for the glue, but acetone smoothing definitely would be a problem over time since it attacks so many plastics, has a low flash point (I have lit it on fire with a hotplate on low), and is very flammable.
@@KnightsWithoutATable Thanks for taking the time to reply! I referred to the stoichiometric ratio because you mentioned the explosion hazard. I think you're right that especially when vapor smoothing I have to be extra careful. For now I'm not too worried, but I think it's a good idea to search for a better fan if I want to take things up a notch. If this place burns down it would be the end of my channel I'm afraid 😅
@@properprinting Well, to get a detonation, it only takes the stoichiometry to be close and in a region of the space, usually in an area of turbulence where it can build up. Once the flame front starts, it will light any areas with a lean mixture and still cause a pressure wave, resulting in a low velocity explosion. Such a detonation can be anything from a small pop to something far more powerful. Since you have two open ends and the fan will not block pressure, it is unlikely you would get anything that was more than like a car backfiring, but the flames could easily light any flammable material near them, like the container of open solvent you are using at the time.
Another piece of advice when working with flammables like this is to have a fire extinguisher rated to put out any fire they could start and any rags or paper towels uses that have solvent on them need to go in a fire suppressing container and be disposed of properly after the work session is done.
If the glue is stronger than the bond between layers why not forget the inserts and just make alignment pins and glue the two halves of the rim together? Also I would consider brushing the entire surface of the rim with that glue, or the solvent. It won’t make a huge difference in structure strength, but it will help bond the outer layers and make it shinny.
He has to be able to put the tire on it and there's no way this rim could withstand the forces a tire mounting machine would apply.
@@greggv8 He could glue it when mounting it on the tire. I doubt he's planning on running these rims long enough to wear out any tires.
Totally doesn't look like a -Meth lab- sus workstation
Maybe I'm talking total nonsense, but what if you make a large amount of that glue and then use it to fill a mold with the shape of the rim?
That way you would get a one piece rim and maybe even add steel reinforcements that would be perfectly integrated inside the rim.
Anyway, I'll wait to see how the project evolves.
Have a nice day.
It will probably work :)
Ek hou baie van jou aksent ;)
Goie werk, ek dink dit sal die kar ophou.
it's will work ! for sur ;)
I say reprint it… hotter and slower. But the chemical bond is stronger than the right in the first place
I printed it at 280 deg C and we tested the optimal print settings for this printer with this material quite thoroughly 😉
"well... This is thing sucks"!
Why not get a can of ABS glue from a store that sells plumbing supplies?
Because this is cheaper and reuses leftover filament! :D This can also be used as filler with the same color as the part
Haha, "this thing sucks"
Gloves. Gloves gloves gloves gloves gloves.
Read the MSDS sheet for acetone, MEK, these products will go through skin like it was nothing and it ll make damage down to DNA, protein folding impairment, not to mention the shit it does to nerve endings.
Like all things in life, a bit of bad won’t kill you, but won’t do you good either. And as a channel you should show the good practice to your followers.
That said, really enjoy your content :)
As stupid as it sounds I'd love to see if you can make a mould and try injection moulding with that ABS slurry
Print one piece narrow wheel
jo interessant filmpje man, maar 7.2 bar op de band voordat hij ontplofte vind ik nog wel mee vallen, zo veel vond ik dat niet. ben geen engineer maar als je auto +- 1000 kg is en je rijd er met 50km/p op een drepel af kan ik best indenken dat de druk in de band VELE male groter is dan 7.2 bar. niet dat het de bedoeling is dat je met 50km/p op een drempel af rijd, maarja shit happens. heb zelf jaren lang in licht en geluid gewerkt en als ik boven mensen iets wauw hangen (lichten of speaker) moest ik rekening houden met een factor 10. dus als de dak/plafond 1000kg aan kon mocht ik maar 100kg er in hangen.
If you find the evaporation rate of MEK to be too alow, and Acetone to be too fast. You can mix acetone 50/50 with MEK to form MPK(methyl prophyl ketone). This will give you a medium evaporation rate and a less hard solvent than mek but will evaporate faster like acetone. We use it a ton to clean aircraft parts before sealing or paint work. Not sure that will work for any of this type of stuff. Just useful knowledge for the future.
Thanks for the information! I was already wondering why one would mix them, but fine-tuning the evaporation rate makes a lot of sense!
But the real question is....what was on your sandwich? :D
(Just commenting for the algorithm)
I'm assuming (which is the mother of all fuck-ups), that gluing it is better than the adhesion between layers from simply melted plastic.
I assume so too, lets see if I'll fuck up😆
I'm not a chemist but as far as I know MEK is a carcinogen so pls wear a respirator when using that stuff, otherwise great stuff :)
First!
Hitting that F5 key until your finger gets sore😂