This is such a refreshing channel. Popular history of ANE feels like it’s at a low point right now. Dominated by a cesspool of debate bros with Dunning-Kruger syndrome. It’s refreshing seeing videos devoted to a single topic on where the author clearly knows how to conduct research
This video jogged my memory concerning a story I had read about Ba'al worship continuing on to the modern day. So I did a little digging and found the article, which was published in Patheos back in 2016. The author found a village in a remote location in Syria where polytheism, including Ba'al worship, continued from ancient to modern times. Hopefully, the villagers remain safe.
What you said is nonsense and pure Christian claptrap. There is no evidence that the Canaanites practiced "abortion" for any deity in any religious tradition.The idea of Carthaginian not Canaanite child sacrifice is a purely Roman invention. As for so called Canaanite child sacrifice that's something made up wholesale by the authors of the Hebrew Bible @bennycarter5249
@@bennycarter5249Also, we've found Canaanite numerous temples,cities,cemeteries,and more, in Syria,Lebanon,etc but nothing at all remotely resembling child sacrifice. When you actually pull your head out of your ass and examine history for what it is and not what your Bible doesn't tell you it is you'll see this too
Great, great video. Thank you that you shared all the information from the circumstances of the find to the different plausible interpretations! Never seen such a detailed presentation before. Your work is highly appreciated!
Would check out Dr. Noga Ayali-Darshan’s work if you can. Her book, The Storm-God and the Sea: The Origin, Versions, and Diffusion of a Myth Throughout the Ancient Near East is an amazing read that identifies some really interesting things about the Ba’al Cycle and other versions of the tale-type.
One thing we should remember about those wavy lines is that there's no reason to believe their meaning was widely understood then, either. It's quite possible that the maker's intent was clear to them and their immediate contemporaries, but the Ugarite of 60 years later may well have been asking his friend what those wavy lines were, and being told "I dunno? The sea, maybe? The mountains?"
They wouldn't have forgot the meaning of their iconography and symbolism in just 60 years. You're looking at this with modern eyes where culture changes really quickly.
@@Tom_QuixoteI’m very inclined to agree,I would imagine oral traditions were much stronger at that time. I have more to add but can’t remember specifics so I’ll try to summarize, there are things the ancients forgot or “lost” cities, monuments etc. there are also acounts that show ancient kings were also intrigued with archaeological endeavors
Why would it be Yam and also-Yam, and not Yam and Mot, as is the topic of the story? Also, why would the upper lines be 'mountains', depicted as wavy lines, instead of as the scale-pattern they're usually depicted as? Wonderful video, and I've loved every one yo'uve put out so far, keep up the great work. I'm unfamiliar with the argument about the meaning of this stele, but pretty familiar with the text itself, so though this was pretty interesting. Also, is there not an assumption that the two weapons he's holding, are the weapons Kothar'wa'Hasis gives him In Ba'al to Fight Yam and Mot? "Driver and Chaser" (or however you choose to translate each of their names) Jumping back to the top question I posed, if it was two representations of Yam, for instance if the stele was to be depicting only that scene, I would imagine it would be as Sea and as Judge-River, not as Sea and as Serpent.
Thanks for your comment. What exactly those two lines depicts is pretty hotly debated (inasmuch as any of this counts as "hotly debated"). You're right that it would not be a typical depiction of mountains so that is one difficulty with "mountain" and "water." And typically in depictions of the storm god with mountains they are standing directly on the mountains which is not the case here. And if I recall correctly Yam is not specifically stated as having a serpentine form in the Ba'al Cycle. Anat fights the dragon but it is not specifically identified as Yam which is a critique of the lines as Yam as Serpent and Yam as Sea. The Sea and Serpent suggestion is just what I'm familiar with in the literature so that's what we talked about here (Williams-Forte 1983 & Fenton 1996). Though the Sea and River sounds like a much better connection to me! Some scholars have suggested the lines are Mountain and Underworld which would be a more complete connection with the Ba'al Cycle but while it's interesting it doesn't seem to have a strong iconographic argument. As far as the weapons I'm not sure if there is direct connection with the Kother'wa'Hasis weapons and those here. but it's a very intriguing idea There may be a link with the depictions of the Storm God at Aleppo who is shown with a mace but those specific reliefs are later than this so it's hard to say for sure. Thanks again for the comment!
@@dig.archaeology Thank you so much for your reply! I had actually paused on the video and screenshotted the part with the three other stele, since I saw one was labeled "of Anat" and wanted to see if there was anything obvious to glean from it. - I was just talking to someone the other day about how it's Anat, not Ba'al or El, who do the action of killing that dragon in the text, and that doing so doesn't seem to be an 'act of primordial creation' the way that killing tiamat is in enuma elish (for example). I'm working through Amherst 63 right now, and so was revisiting enuma elish and ba'al and some psalms, specifically to put back together in my mind what the actual texts say, not how we think of the stories in our retellings. - Back on the note of the wavy lines, the first thing I thought, actually, was wondering if it was a representation of Pidray, Arsay, and Tally - the light, the rain, and the shaking of the wide world, who accompany him (and move in with him once he gets his house). I need to spend some time with it to come to an actual opinion, but now am excited to know that it's a question to have an opinion on! In short, thanks for putting on my radar that I need to find a good picture of these and take time looking them over, since that wasn't on my reading list for this current project, and clearly should've been.
A little correction you keep calling the God Ba'al but his name is Ba'al Hadad not Ba'al as Ba'al itself just means "Lord or master or owner" and when speaking about the storm God associated with Canaan it's always Ba'al Hadad. But I absolutely love this video with it's unbiased and academic approach,and the fact that you didn't try to insert pseudo historical biblical nonsense into it.Lastly I would argue that the motif of the smiting storm God isn't Egyptian as we see it as far back as the Hurrians and even before with depiction of the Mesopotamian storm God Adad in the 3rd or 2nd millennium BCE. The locks don't look like an Egyptian side lock at all and there's multiple locks not one.The helmet doesn't look like the Atef crown to me because of how skinny it is at the top but I could be wrong. I love your channel and now I'm subscribed 😊
One last thing there isn't a deity named Ba'al as there are multiple deities with Ba'al attached to their name's that are not storm Gods like Ba'al Hammon,Ba'al Peor,Ba'al Shamin,etc
If I may ask do you know why it's named "au foudre" and not "à la foudre" ? Foudre is female in French, the use of "au" instead of "à" suggest a plural. Was it believed to be several lightening bolts instead of lightening as a concept in general ?
That's a great question that I don't have a great answer for! The only thing I can say is Ras Shamra was excavated by a French excavation team and that's the name they gave to it. So that's the name that's stuck with it and that's what everyone calls it now.
@@dig.archaeology Thanks for the answer anyways ! If I ever somehow finds out I'll let you know, either on this thread or through mail. And thanks for the videos ! As said by others, they're a breath of fresh-air on undiscussed / under-represented subjects on youtube historic vulgarisation, and done with a real level of methodologic care, that I can't thank you enough !
@Christian-nj6xd Incorrect as I've stated the temple that was destroyed was Ba'al Shamin temple, and there is absolutely no deity simply named Ba'al it's just a title. Now, if you want to show me what other Ba'al had a temple destroyed, I'm all ears?There's Ba'al Hadad who is the God in the video then there's Ba'al Shamin,Ba'al Peor,Ba'al Menon,etc
I like your scientific skepticism to everything in archaeology. The more people like you, the more realistic retrospective we have
Solid, sober analysis, not engaging in all the ancient alien theories that pollute UA-cam.
Thank you! We are tired of all that as well.
This is such a refreshing channel. Popular history of ANE feels like it’s at a low point right now. Dominated by a cesspool of debate bros with Dunning-Kruger syndrome. It’s refreshing seeing videos devoted to a single topic on where the author clearly knows how to conduct research
Thank you! We really appreciate it! We do aim to provide quality research and videos.
This video jogged my memory concerning a story I had read about Ba'al worship continuing on to the modern day. So I did a little digging and found the article, which was published in Patheos back in 2016. The author found a village in a remote location in Syria where polytheism, including Ba'al worship, continued from ancient to modern times. Hopefully, the villagers remain safe.
Baál worship does still exist today. It's called abortion.
@bennycarter5249 Stay in whatever backward corner of America you dwell in. We don't want it.
What you said is nonsense and pure Christian claptrap. There is no evidence that the Canaanites practiced "abortion" for any deity in any religious tradition.The idea of Carthaginian not Canaanite child sacrifice is a purely Roman invention. As for so called Canaanite child sacrifice that's something made up wholesale by the authors of the Hebrew Bible @bennycarter5249
@@bennycarter5249Also, we've found Canaanite numerous temples,cities,cemeteries,and more, in Syria,Lebanon,etc but nothing at all remotely resembling child sacrifice. When you actually pull your head out of your ass and examine history for what it is and not what your Bible doesn't tell you it is you'll see this too
Great, great video. Thank you that you shared all the information from the circumstances of the find to the different plausible interpretations!
Never seen such a detailed presentation before. Your work is highly appreciated!
Glad you enjoyed it! We are very appreciative of the feedback.
Pulled a proper Antiquities card with this one.
Lol, thanks!
Fascinating. Thank you!
Thank you for watching!
Would check out Dr. Noga Ayali-Darshan’s work if you can.
Her book, The Storm-God and the Sea: The Origin, Versions, and Diffusion of a Myth Throughout the Ancient Near East is an amazing read that identifies some really interesting things about the Ba’al Cycle and other versions of the tale-type.
Completely accurate channel name. Genius.
Thank you!
Interesting. Thank you
One thing we should remember about those wavy lines is that there's no reason to believe their meaning was widely understood then, either. It's quite possible that the maker's intent was clear to them and their immediate contemporaries, but the Ugarite of 60 years later may well have been asking his friend what those wavy lines were, and being told "I dunno? The sea, maybe? The mountains?"
They wouldn't have forgot the meaning of their iconography and symbolism in just 60 years. You're looking at this with modern eyes where culture changes really quickly.
@@Tom_QuixoteI’m very inclined to agree,I would imagine oral traditions were much stronger at that time. I have more to add but can’t remember specifics so I’ll try to summarize, there are things the ancients forgot or “lost” cities, monuments
etc. there are also acounts that show ancient kings were also intrigued with archaeological endeavors
+
Nice, subbed
Great analysis. Thank you.
So great man!👍
Why would it be Yam and also-Yam, and not Yam and Mot, as is the topic of the story?
Also, why would the upper lines be 'mountains', depicted as wavy lines, instead of as the scale-pattern they're usually depicted as?
Wonderful video, and I've loved every one yo'uve put out so far, keep up the great work. I'm unfamiliar with the argument about the meaning of this stele, but pretty familiar with the text itself, so though this was pretty interesting.
Also, is there not an assumption that the two weapons he's holding, are the weapons Kothar'wa'Hasis gives him In Ba'al to Fight Yam and Mot? "Driver and Chaser" (or however you choose to translate each of their names)
Jumping back to the top question I posed, if it was two representations of Yam, for instance if the stele was to be depicting only that scene, I would imagine it would be as Sea and as Judge-River, not as Sea and as Serpent.
Thanks for your comment. What exactly those two lines depicts is pretty hotly debated (inasmuch as any of this counts as "hotly debated"). You're right that it would not be a typical depiction of mountains so that is one difficulty with "mountain" and "water." And typically in depictions of the storm god with mountains they are standing directly on the mountains which is not the case here. And if I recall correctly Yam is not specifically stated as having a serpentine form in the Ba'al Cycle. Anat fights the dragon but it is not specifically identified as Yam which is a critique of the lines as Yam as Serpent and Yam as Sea. The Sea and Serpent suggestion is just what I'm familiar with in the literature so that's what we talked about here (Williams-Forte 1983 & Fenton 1996). Though the Sea and River sounds like a much better connection to me! Some scholars have suggested the lines are Mountain and Underworld which would be a more complete connection with the Ba'al Cycle but while it's interesting it doesn't seem to have a strong iconographic argument.
As far as the weapons I'm not sure if there is direct connection with the Kother'wa'Hasis weapons and those here. but it's a very intriguing idea There may be a link with the depictions of the Storm God at Aleppo who is shown with a mace but those specific reliefs are later than this so it's hard to say for sure.
Thanks again for the comment!
@@dig.archaeology Thank you so much for your reply! I had actually paused on the video and screenshotted the part with the three other stele, since I saw one was labeled "of Anat" and wanted to see if there was anything obvious to glean from it. - I was just talking to someone the other day about how it's Anat, not Ba'al or El, who do the action of killing that dragon in the text, and that doing so doesn't seem to be an 'act of primordial creation' the way that killing tiamat is in enuma elish (for example). I'm working through Amherst 63 right now, and so was revisiting enuma elish and ba'al and some psalms, specifically to put back together in my mind what the actual texts say, not how we think of the stories in our retellings.
-
Back on the note of the wavy lines, the first thing I thought, actually, was wondering if it was a representation of Pidray, Arsay, and Tally - the light, the rain, and the shaking of the wide world, who accompany him (and move in with him once he gets his house). I need to spend some time with it to come to an actual opinion, but now am excited to know that it's a question to have an opinion on!
In short, thanks for putting on my radar that I need to find a good picture of these and take time looking them over, since that wasn't on my reading list for this current project, and clearly should've been.
Good stuff.
Great video! What is the outro music?
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it! "Virtual Roaming Charges" by half.cool Its in the UA-cam audio library.
Excellent video.
The plural of “stela” is “stelae.” So the last syllable sounds like “I,” as in “I” really enjoyed this video.
A little correction you keep calling the God Ba'al but his name is Ba'al Hadad not Ba'al as Ba'al itself just means "Lord or master or owner" and when speaking about the storm God associated with Canaan it's always Ba'al Hadad. But I absolutely love this video with it's unbiased and academic approach,and the fact that you didn't try to insert pseudo historical biblical nonsense into it.Lastly I would argue that the motif of the smiting storm God isn't Egyptian as we see it as far back as the Hurrians and even before with depiction of the Mesopotamian storm God Adad in the 3rd or 2nd millennium BCE. The locks don't look like an Egyptian side lock at all and there's multiple locks not one.The helmet doesn't look like the Atef crown to me because of how skinny it is at the top but I could be wrong. I love your channel and now I'm subscribed 😊
More of the same please.
Dig on!
Do Molech next!
One last thing there isn't a deity named Ba'al as there are multiple deities with Ba'al attached to their name's that are not storm Gods like Ba'al Hammon,Ba'al Peor,Ba'al Shamin,etc
To me, it appeared to depict a harvesting motif.
If I may ask do you know why it's named "au foudre" and not "à la foudre" ?
Foudre is female in French, the use of "au" instead of "à" suggest a plural. Was it believed to be several lightening bolts instead of lightening as a concept in general ?
That's a great question that I don't have a great answer for! The only thing I can say is Ras Shamra was excavated by a French excavation team and that's the name they gave to it. So that's the name that's stuck with it and that's what everyone calls it now.
@@dig.archaeology Thanks for the answer anyways ! If I ever somehow finds out I'll let you know, either on this thread or through mail.
And thanks for the videos ! As said by others, they're a breath of fresh-air on undiscussed / under-represented subjects on youtube historic vulgarisation, and done with a real level of methodologic care, that I can't thank you enough !
Can you make video about Canaanite mythology?
Canaanite religion *
Didn't isis destroy this temple?
Isis never reached the Mediterranean coast, which always was under government control in Syria. It destroyed the beautiful temple of Baal in Palmyra.
@@Christian-nj6xdBa'al Shamin not Ba'al *
@@TonyJack74 The small temple of Ba‘al Shamim was destroyed in Palmyra as well as the large temple of Ba‘al, which has/had it‘s own precinct.
@Christian-nj6xd Incorrect as I've stated the temple that was destroyed was Ba'al Shamin temple, and there is absolutely no deity simply named Ba'al it's just a title. Now, if you want to show me what other Ba'al had a temple destroyed, I'm all ears?There's Ba'al Hadad who is the God in the video then there's Ba'al Shamin,Ba'al Peor,Ba'al Menon,etc
@ I see, you have never been to Palmyra!
talk about the city of worms and why it was targeted in the crusades o.o
Huh?