How Do AI Missiles Work ? - Automation Beta - Space Engineers
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- Опубліковано 20 жов 2024
- AI Missiles from the automation BETA leave a lot of questions to be answered so lets do some testing and find out there capability's.
#spaceengineers #gaming #gameplay #game #videogames #gamingvideos
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I think custom weapons are cool. And less scripting in a programmable block is a win. Someone made this custom ai into a 2.5km LOS radar as well. So many new scenarios could be made now. Exciting!
nooo I never do that
Something that comes to mind for a countermeasure would be something similar to the scatter/MIRV missles that we saw years ago. A remote controlled missile that would spin and release a bunch of warheads which would scatter over a large area. Using a small grid variant and maybe even using an AI block on it to guide it towards oncoming missiles and having a timed release, it could effectively make a blanket of chaff to intercept some of the missiles. Only issue being your own turrets potentially shooting the armed warheads
Small Warhead, mini battery and sensor set to trigger if it detects enemy small grid (maybe even a timer set for long time to detonate to keep server free of trash.). Just print and set them free.
love this idea
Need to try this
LOTUS?
Its much cheaper and easier just building a Ion thruster missile with a decoy on top. Good enough against missiles, terrible against turrets
you can use your own missiles set to small targets to intercept enemy missiles.
does work quite well
My always miss...and yours
I can even see fleets incorporating ships with the sole purpose of missile interception, I like it!!
Like air defense destroyers
In theory with the recorder task block you can even set up those ships as automated escorts, I didn't get the chance to fully explore it but you can program them to follow paths that move relative to a specified beacon on a lead ship.
Line of sight is neat because you can vertical launch a missile with thruster override, the AI will take over when it clears the silo and "sees" the target
I'd love to see some kind of smart-mine field. This would need some obfuscation mechanic, whether thats cloaking or camouflage in a debris field for example. Might go along well with the railgun breaching pod. Disorient with mines and explosions, then go in for the kill with a breacher crew
Defense icmb base targeting can work. where you can send a barrage of a missles at an enemy base to soften up its defenses while also sending drones to strafe when the missles are coming in to turents are destracted. a way to defend is counter missle batterys designed as interseptors
When I was testing missiles on the beta I noticed that you could place a forward facing hydrogen thruster but not pipe it up (missiles don't need to slow down lol). The AI blocks accepted this as a valid thruster and it made their motions slightly less predictable and helped save them from getting shot. Also I found an event timer that was set to detonate the warheads on block add/remove to be extremely effective. This way if the missile hits hard enough to break a front block but not hard enough to set off the warhead it will explode regardless. It backfires when a block gets shot off it though but I thought that was acceptable because it kind of cleans up debris. I also had another event timer to detonate the warheads when out of hydrogen.
I prefer to stick the battery by the warheads. If the bomb goes off, you have an unpowered grid for cleanup.
Do you think ai missiles or custom turret missiles are better? Because for what I’ve been testing it seems the custom turret missiles go faster because the ai missiles sometimes randomly stop and try to readjust
@@-Benito_Swagolini- the custom turret ones may be better on initial approach. The problem is they suck to make in survival for even modest numbers, have 1/3 the tracking range, and only track targets in front of the missile. The automatons version is cheaper, lighter, easier to make, and way more versitile
@@-Benito_Swagolini- this is why I added a fake reverse thruster, then it cannot try and stop. The AI missiles are way easier to build in survival. If they root out the problems with AI deactivation then they will be printable.
@@batchnerd I was thinking of building a 2 stage missile where first stage is using the ai blocks for long range guidance then when it gets into 800 m it would switch to second stage where it would switch to custom turret guidance for precision. Any way when the update comes out I will test if your non connected thruster works better than the 2 stage missile I’m working on
Looking at your missiles they sometimes don't explode.
Before the beta what I would do to optimize damage is have a sensor block on the nose of the missile that will detonate the warheads prematurely, but because it takes a second to send the command they explode right before they hit.
I think if you set the sensor to 5 meters in front of the nose of the missile it will explode on target 9/10 times, this also has the added benefit of completely destroying the missile improving performance and reducing clean up after battle.
I rarely put warheads in my missiles and instead use kinetic missiles that turn into a bunch of shrapnel inside the enemy ship, ripping it apart from inside out when it changes speed
@@derdrache0512 Why not use both?
I use heavy nose cones and a sensor that triggers at the spot between the nose and warheads. I lose the forward blast but the warheads survive more often. And usually the cone is heavy enough that part of is left behind in the enemy ships. It tends to also rip large holes in the outer layer of the target.
@@derdrache0512 why not put the sensor at the back to act as a tail fuze.
With these missiles operational, I wouldn't be surprised if the Rocinate or an MCRN Donnager showed up to play.
Small grid missiles IS PATHETIC. Best is a thicc 3x3 missile to reliably go through defence and deliver big kinetic energy followed by explosion (APHE missile)
@@comradeblin256 aphe is a fucking joke, best bet is to yeet warheads at mach 1.74 into all ships you see
@@comradeblin256 expanse missiles are nuclear armed, they penetrate the target and detonate the nuclear payload once inside the enemy hull
This will also turn small ships into viable weapons against large grids. A small space fighter can carry 2-4 small missiles and target either large ships, bases, or land ships. Basically we probably can now make ATG and GTA missiles or even rocket artillery systems like HIMARS or Katyusha which will shift not only how combat is done naturally but also change ship designs to combat these threats
Making small-grids more viable offensively seems unlikely. I could have 2-4 missiles on a small grid, or I could have a server-crashing number stored in the cargo of a large-grid with a printer allowing me to make it rain so many missiles that the US military will get jealous.
@@tael3081 That could be viable, but it would be putting all your eggs in one basket. One hit on your large ship and its likely to go boom. Could work well if you manage to make missile interceptors and point defense systems like IRL. But I think remote controlled small ships firing missiles would be cheaper and more viable.
@@Ivan-bk9xs Cheaper, yes, more viable... not so much. Collecting large amounts of ore was one of the first things I learned in SE, so while I certainly enjoy making small grids for things, I find the cost of large grids to be low enough that building small-grid ships to be "efficient" is a waste of time in pvp without additional rules (mods, rp, block caps, ect...).
Anyways, missiles work best in swarms in SE, the more you drop on a target in a short period, the more likely your missiles are to make it through a target's point-defenses. I find 3 tends to be the bare minimum for pvp if your target isn't moving, and even then results can be mixed, better to have 8 or more.
@@tael3081 That assumes the frankly unlikely event that printers are allowed on the server in the first place. Even if they are, that's a *ton* of PCU spent.
@@0Kasada I've actually never been on a server that didn't either allow printers, or have an alternative moded in. As for pcu... it depends on how crazy you go with it, but it isn't that hard to keep it small (it really should be more expensive).
the missile knows where it is, by knowing, where it isn't
Ah yes, I can finally finish my Arsenal bird with these AI blocks, the drones are gonna be a nightmare though
Test tactic: As missiles approach, turn off ship power. Then back on again. This may make them delay to retarget from power systems to weapons. When your weapons come back on they then have plenty of time to take out the missiles.
This if the missiles dont have backward facing thrusters, this way, even if they stoped tracking ur ship, they would still be going to its direction. The only way to not get hit by them using your strategy is if there are more ships around for the missiles to target and forget you as their target.
Just a tip. Make sure to explode the warhead before impact with a sensor, it'll do way more damage than direct impact. I've tested and have seen 3-5 blocks of light armor penetrated and 1-3 for heavy armor. dont know if its just how the game calculates the explosion or what but itll really amp up the damage potential. also hydrogen tanks will add to the warheads payload.
Decoys haven't even been working against normal vanilla Gatling turrets for a while - at least on the Keen servers.
Decoys don't just completely override targeting anymore, they have a influence based on numbers and distance from type of target.
It would be good if you could configure decoys to mimic a subsystem e.g. propulsion or weapons
Fun fact: there's a nuclear weapon mod on the workshop.
You finish the puzzle.
I wonder what would happen if you added an overriden gyroscope? If they still aim and target well enough it will make them much much harder to hit from turrets or other players / ai blocks
Fleets deploying missile ships that jump away right after they unload their armament would be cool to see
Loved the video @LastStandGamers! Can't wait for the next video man! This Particular Weapon System looks pretty promising, and I have a Few Design Changes in mind that mind improve their Lethality in Combat. To be fair, I'm not sure how the Ships from RWI (Redwood Industries) would fare against these Missiles but I don't think a Corellian CR90 Corvette or even a Squadron of Arquitens-class Light Cruisers would Fare well against them, an Acclamator or Two Maybe.
Possible Design Changes:
1). Use a Cargo Container Block and Fill it with Various Pieces of Ammunition for the Warhead. Obviously, this will be more of a Nuke if you Fill it Completely and use more Cargo Container Blocks, However you can Adjust it to a more Viable amount of Damage that can Be Dealt without it being a Nuke. Try using just One Cargo Container Block and Fill it with 1 to 5 Assault Cannon Rounds and then slowly work your way up to the Artillery Cannon Rounds.
2). Try to Incorporate a Merge Block into the Design. This will allow for Vehicles to actually use this in Battle if need be. It might also allow for Larger, MIRV-like Missiles to be Built so that Multiple Missiles can be Delivered to their Targets.
3). Try a Program or Script Block to Allow for the Input of GPS Coordinates. Suppose you have a "Nuclear Arsenal" with these Missiles comprising a Decently Large portion of it. Say you get into a War with a Few of the Factions like XTS and MOP as well as LootGoblin, all you'd have to do is give the Missiles or their Delivery Systems the Coordinates of the Bases of XTS, MOP and LootGoblin and then just Fire off a Few of them to Bring in the Pain Train.
Now you'll also need some way of Denoting that the Missiles are Either Nukes or High Explosive or anything else. The United States will usually have Light Blue for Nuclear Ordinance while Yellow in High Explosive and Red is Either Armor-Piercing or Incendiary. This is done so that if the U.S. were to get involved in a Conflict, they won't end up using Nuclear Weapons by Accident and thus become to Aggressor Country to start World War III. If the Entire Piece of Ordinance is Light Blue, then It's a Dummy Round or a Dud. These are Used for Practice by the Military.
Let me know what you think about this and I'll catch you in your next video man!
Oh, i would love to see some kind of missile which can knock out approaching missiles. Like a missile based shild. Something like the "Iron Dome" system in Israel.
They are Not effective.😢 from 20 missle i only intercept 4. ( the attacking missle is going for large grid).
I think maybe add a segment to the missile with a rotor and have multiple decoy blocks on merge blocks then depending on what the event controller can detect have it set to spin up and throw out the decoys either when within a set range of a hostile grid or when a the grid takes damage.
Man, when Spiritplumber and I were doing this four years ago it didn't even make the news. All it did was make endless rage on The Last Bastion. XD
Using the turret block I found that just flying at max speed away stopped the missile. Also artillery just destroyed them... that is until I added a rotor with 2 decoy blocks on sticks set to spin as it approached. The turret ai tries to predict the path but because its curved even 20 artillery on a stationary target wasnt enough some times.
1:25 I think this issue might just be caused by the Target Search Interval being too long. You can see that it starts to go for your new selection right before it hits the reactor.
The idea of fire and forget missile clusters sounds cool but my first thought for the new AI blocks was people using them for giant ICMB type missiles that could be launched from orbit into enemy bases. By the time they made it to the target you could jump half way across the solar system.
1:21 you need to let the target search interval re-search for a target I think
Or if it doesn't redo the search when it's already locked then you probably need to have it reset then
"Some of the defensive tactics you could use... is flying away at maximum speed..."
Might be the ship on screen, but that reminded me of the WW1 tactic of dealing with torpedoes. Just turn away and outpace them. Later, this evolved to turning into the spread due to glancing blows not triggering the contact detonators.
i suspected that the AI blocks do not delete previous commands easely ( like switching a parameter) ; it happened often with the offensive AI block that they "ereditated" a behaviour from previous directives and "bugged"
Love the missile meme reference
Here’s where I stand on missile systems, whenever they are implemented properly, they can become a devastating and truly effective weapon. With the new guidance systems, I believe there will be two kinds of missile deployment. The first is a direct fire form of missile, essentially, it is launched from a vessel, whenever it is already in range of its target.
The second, is delayed targeting launches, in which the missile is fired in a general direction towards the target, and comes within the targeting range mid flight. I can see direct missile use being effective in ship to ship engagements. However, I can see the delayed targeting being excellent for ambush tactics or long range artillery. There will be a lot of speculation until large factions or really any kind of faction get their hands on these blocks in full force, the Beta opened our eyes to a whole new world of possibilities, I can honestly see player built munitions, becoming a much more profitable endeavor with the new update. It will allow our faction, for example, to create a new unscripted version of our Icarus MK4 guided torpedoes. So when the new update hits, we will probably have a MK 5 I believe we will have to wait and see the true effectiveness of these missiles in combat before we can really make a sound judgment. However, I can absolutely see the benefit in utilizing them on mass.
Something I want to see from KEEN is for them to add thruster % mirroring to the Event controller so I can make truly scriptless subgrid thruster arrays
Without mods, even small groups of missiles tend to overwhelm most turret setups in short order, after which they blow everything to bits via the absurd damage output of small warheads. Battles with missiles also have this habit of quickly becoming long and drawn out chases with pilots spending more time flying in a strait line and waiting for their turrets to kill the missiles than actually fighting, with brief breaks from flying in a strait line to go warp back in to range of your foe to go try and dump your more of your cargo of missiles on them before you are forced apart and back in to flying in strait lines again to keep away from the missiles they launched at you while you were launching at them.
In short, they sound cool, but the absurd damage and lack of decent alternate counters tends to turn missiles fights in to you staring at a screen for long periods while your ship drifts in a strait line.
Now I'm curious. Did you try adding a few decoy missiles into the mix?
Say 1 or 2 per 5 real missiles, in order to pull away defensive fire.
i think a good use for these would be close range broad sides, the enemy main guns will be locked on your ship (unless they are set to target small grids) you could armor up 1 side of ur ship for it to take the brunt of damage while you trade these off
More Keen omniscient "AI", like the hostile factions being able to locate the player through meters of rock. Maybe someday there will be a game that requires some sort of sensors for craft to be detected/targeted.
With these new blocks we can now design one of these missiles with nearly an infinite range, so long as you 'mark-marked' the target area, and gave it the ability to use the combat block with an event controller to detect an enemy once it becomes within 'terminal range', 800m.
Unfortunately this requires a lot of timer blocks without a script so you can have the missile fire, accelerate and then decelerate at a predetermined cruise speed well arming the warheads and activating the event controller and the combat block at the same time.
You also need to work a remote control Block in there so you can turn the dampers off and on so the thing can cruise in the first place without slowing itself down and stopping. Keen seems to have overlooked the ability to turn off and on the inertial dampeners in the movement blocks
Decoy need a fix or those new missile will be op (even if with some scripts you ca lock a target and ignore decoy)
Decoy could be used where you put what it pretends to be, so the missile has a chance to target it compared to real targets. Maybe even make it so it still needs to be close-ish to the main target for the best effect
So if you are condifent power will be fine if targeted, no need for decoys.
But if you only have a few thrusters for propulsion, then maybe you throw some decoys around your thrusters, so the missile might get "Confused" and swirve off course and into a decoy
I am thinking here, a swarm of missiles sent before a capital ship, if rightly timed the ship can use the swarm as a screen moving in a way that the PD of the enemy prioritizes the missiles while the ship can pound it with the big guns while is unprotected or unaware
I wonder if you could use timer blocks and thruster override to make some sorta evasive maneuvers into the missiles
Well, you see, the missile knows where it is because...
I used a missile I made previously using the turret blocks, people learned quite quickly the it was dangerous even to large ships (its a small grid missile and also a small missile) loosed one after a space podcast near a moon it tried to run and it blew up at its rear taking out all forward and I think upward thrusters... he very quickly crashed... tho that was a test amount friends its dangerous lol, tho i can imagine these things could be terrifying
What about an armored megatorp surrounded by a cloud of little decoy rammers to take hits?
I mean its obvious that the missle knows where it is because it knows where it isnt.
the missile knows where you are at all times once it notices you.
Decoy BLock flairs and chaff maybe
Gravity Gens to launch quick printed engines, batts, guns as decoys!
Was the decoy block set as any of the subsystems?
If you have a decoy set to power and a reactor near it will the AI missiles target the decoy or reactor? Dose angle matter, so if you have the reactor and decoy to the left and right and shoot the missile from the right side will it hit the decoy or fly over to hit the reactor?
As for a way to counter these missiles, and active interception system. Set your own missiles to target small, closets grids and intercept the missiles.
my big question: if im in a (vanilla)server, and have several "AI friends" in a cloud roaming around me... and I logoff for the night- will the roaming AIs still be active to engage when, say, a raider gets within 2500m? or are they signed off when I am? Does staying in a bed/cryopod keep them around? (not a super villain)
They should remain persistent provided they have power, unless a sneaky administrator removes them
Missile will be a big threat but counter missiles will become very important!!! Also I can already think of a cheap small interceptor missile!!
I've had some issues with making custom guided turrets on servers that have shield mods. A lot of the times they bounce off and the warheads don't fire off because the range of the shield to the ship is too far. Still trying to fix that.
Im wondering how effective these are compared the Rdavs and Wham scripts
Me too, especially because I've got a couple Wham cruisers in my backlog I still need to upload XD
Straight up just gonna make a hive ship with small grid swarm missiles or even better have a large grid decoy torpedo to grab turret agro so more small ones can make it to target
I have a completely different experience with these missiles. I made a missile that was dealing insane damage to a ship, killing smaller ships outright and where even a turret brick could not intercept them or if it did the missile would fragment and cause damage anyway. Unless you have a super manouverable ship these missiles are a guaranteed hit.
What skybox/world was showing in the later half of the video? Its very pretty and Id love to use that in my server
The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't, by subtracting where it is, from where it isn't, or where it isn't, from where it is, whichever is greater, it obtains a difference, or deviation. The guidance sub-system uses deviations to generate corrective commands to drive the missile from a position where it is, to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is, is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position where it was, is now the position that it isn't. In the event of the position that it is in is not the position that it wasn't, the system has required a variation. The variation being the difference between where the missile is, and where it wasn't. If variation is considered to be a significant factor, it too, may be corrected by the GEA.
Ok here is the plan. Make a ship with a lot of missiles. Those all have a timer on them. Start the timer with the same delay.
Release the missiles one afte the other and let then hover outside of the enemy weapon range. They should circle around the target and move a bit away from it if the target gets closer to them. Then wenn the timer runs out on all at the same time they will all start attacking the target from all different directions
Hmm. Maybe I should set my corvette up for missile interception. It's got the acceleration to get to top speed pretty quick. Maybe I should throw on max gatling turretss and lead them on a merry chase of death.
Did I see some of the missiles carrying missile launchers? If you could make that work, that would be a nasty 1-2 punch!
Question: what's the max detection range of a beta missile ? I didn't manage to see it anywhere. 600m, 800m, 2km, render range ?
I tested 2,5km and they still worked
So basically I get to invent custom icbms sweet
wouldnt the counter just be an array of counter missiles with batteries (power systems) at the head?
seems like in order for the larger missles to be effeective is changing the warhead type by adding exposive cargo container im not sure if hydrogen expoldes yet but there should be a mechnic where you should be able to make more violent and powerful explosions specfically calculated by the mass of exposive objects. This game mechanic is key in making buildable missles as larger explosives may be needed to get effect on target
H2 tanks explode, but the blast radius seems fairly small, and the damage output is low (it takes some work just to get them to chain-react).
I tested it out right after warfare 2 came out. The range isn't great and a layer of heavy armor stops most of it (so warheads are better for price and size). However, the more ammo you have and the more explosive that ammo is (artillery is more explosive than autocannon), then you get a bigger bang
@@Erik_Ice_Fang I feel you can create a heat warhead with a detector in front to detect small and large ships. Then once the sensors head gets in range it activates a couple missile launchers or a large cannon then with a delay trigger the warhead behind. Depending on design the collision might cause more armor damage and penetration since the long gun Is a tube.
What mod changes the graphics on those tracers. that's beautiful
alriight, you wanna mess with them some more? install rocket turrets (2 - 4) om AI missiles. only give them enough for 1 salvo before impact
are you going to update your swarm bubble ship with the AI blocks that be a neat rebuild of that ship the hive ship or what ever it was
Decoys not working with the is a bit troubling. I feel making a missile that is basically just thrusters, gyro and a lot of heavy blocks slamming into a large ship is prob gonna do more dmg.
9:38 can’t wait to bombard a planetary base from orbit
I forget if the gravity gen will stop a jump drive but if it does and you can lure a foe into an ambush. place several grav gen with in the zone with event AI that way after you pass and draw the foe in the gen activate. Then sam sites activate and launch which would cause a distraction of generous size. Depending on how much time you have and resources will effect how large of an ambush you could craft.
it wouldn't
I'm fairly sure the game distinguishes between P and A gravity for those restrictions.
What block did you use for the missiles?
of course there's also using smaller missiles to intercept incoming missiles and drone fighters
if you change th war head to a missle launcher and timer blocks to active a couple you get better one time use missles espically if there using the small ship blocks
The missile knows where it is because it knows where it isn't
Why does no one attempt using A.I. for driller/(in this case) grinder headed breaching crafts, or ship saws? Like, a small dosen of small grinder headed missiles with some extendable magnet clamps to latch onto the ship, ripping it appart as long as they aren't taken off, or taken out.
And if they aren't or can't be, then they'll just continue diving deeper and deeper into the enemy craft, destroying all vitals it could.
Maybe you could use AI boarding pods
i wonder if you can make defensive missiles against it
The missiles make enemy wepons disctracted witch is good in it self.
You also need decoy missles too
Perhaps scarier would be larger and individually more capable weapons systems
Grinder torpedoes when?
they took the beta away from me when i was designing auto mining with auto ship re-docking with the mothership
I think your in the place that a lot of people are with unloadable worlds or midway through projects but fingers crossed they may become loadable again on release of the AI update.
Can you make a "AI Hyperdrive Ram!"
now just imagine these weapons with modded thrusters and more powerful warheads! Guided nukes anyone? :D
Hey what is that thing approaching our bas...
Base gone !
Bad shiva flashbacks...
Is the Beta still on?
personally i dont see missiles getting used much they are far to expensive and difficult to build need a ship with multiple dedicated printers to build weld fuel power and launch the missiles in numbers large enough to overwhelm defenses they are generally slow and easily hit and much larger and much less effective than just using base game missiles and turrets that will hit almost always take no effort to build and are cheaper in every way
It allows a player to attack beyond the range of every base weapon. That is pretty useful
Someone pls tell Arron it's automaTONS update and not automaTION :D
Could it in theory be possible to make a ballistic missile like an ICBM using the new ai blocks?
easily if you know where the target is, you could make a cruise missile
@@TheMhalpern cool but, would the range be limited by line of sight?
Or could you target and hit things at the oposite side of the planet?
@@lorenadelcordonez1200 just make sure you have some intermediate waypoints, and have collision avoidance on, for the main flight controller, with the override collision avoidance on AI combat offensive, it will avoid collision with things that aren't near the target
The missile has the same "range" as any grid (fuel and power dependant). Targeting range on AI blocks is 2.5km
@@Erik_Ice_Fang if you have coordinates, you can have it fly to nearby coordinates before going onto "intercept"
is it just me, or is the beta not available anymore?
It was for one week only unless they extended it by a few days
If only there was a targeting setting to target players and/or medbays
Targeting players exists in the beta.
There's no i
It's automaton
I wish they hadn't ended the beta :(
Comment
I hope that we see a mod soon that I corporates all of these new Automation blocks into a single missile control block.
can we have counter missiles like the iron dome
Very interesting. Are you able to give the missiles proportional navigation? I would like to know just how much you can change the AI on those missiles. 🤔
Yes, there were three modes when I tested it, though I couldn't tell if it was having much affect it was definitely an option to pick.
The AI Combat blocks take priority once an enemy is in range (2.5km). You can use the other AI blocks to get your weapon into range (fuel dependant) and then that AI combat offensive block assumes control once in range.