Chris you’re a boss. Just holding down the fort while everyone is in Las Vegas, Wendy is sick and you’re out here cranking out top 10s. 🙌🏾 that’s what’s up.
What an amazing list !!! Well done ! I wish there were more such videos analysing and comparing certain game aspects. Huge value add and so insightful !
Patchwork does a great job of having a mixed up turn order used to a strategic affect. Probably the best I've seen. You're counting ahead, seeing if you'll get the 1x1 tile or if you can get an extra turn. Oh but wait, if I do that he'll get the tile I really need, so maybe I'll just take a catch up move and get paid so I can afford that tile after he moves.
Since I just played Castles of Burgundy this morning, I have to mention that the turn order in that game is a very important aspect. In Castles of Burgundy you can build several types of tiles. One of this type are the boats, and these boats decide turn order. The fight for these boats in order to know who will go first next turn create some interesting moments in the game: I can win many points right now, or take and build a boat so I am first next turn. Is it worth it? Being first at the beginning of a new age (every 5 turns) is potentially a big deal, since every tiles in the market are wiped out and the market is reset with new tiles. El Grande is a fantastic game, I totally agree that the turn order is a vital part of the game. I especially like the "I get last now, so I will be the first to play my card and will play my 13 to be first next round which happens just before scoring" tactic.
Great video! Even I wasn't aware of how many different kinds of variable turn order mechanics there are in board games. 10. Better effect has worse initiative 9. Bidding for Turn Order 8. Pass Order 7. Play initiative card 6. Wake up Track 5. Time Track 4. Brave-Cowardly Mechanic (Last Brave has to lead) 3. Stat-based Turn Order 2. Better Tile goes later next round 1. Bigger actions go later next round The crazy thing in Brass is that you take 2 actions per turn, so if you time it right, you can take 4 actions in a row. I admit the Wake up Track in Viticulture is a very cool mechanic, but I just don't like the rest of the game. A crazy (but not necessarily good) thing in TI4 is that turn order is a tie break for victory.
I think it might be worth mentioning trick taking games explicitly... Where (at least generally) the winner of the most recent trick leads off as the first player in the new trick. Again, that could be seen as a variation of some of the ones you've already listed, but it is such a common genre it feels like it's worth calling out.
Dungeon Petz has a really interesting turn order mechanism. Each player has a set of workers (imps), which they secretly split into group. Following this, the players reveal their imps, and then each group of imps can claim a worker placement spot on the main board, but the group/s with the most imps go first. You have to decide whether to use more of your workers to go earlier, and claim a specific spot on the board, or whether to spread out your imps and (hopefully) take more actions, as long as there are enough placement spots remaining.
This video is great Chris!! I’d love more of these from the dice tower please. I appreciate the thoughtfulness and additional examples. Side note: I envision Chris sitting at home in the evening staring off when Wendy asks what he’s thinking about. Chris’ reply: new top ten topics that I can include Broom Service in.
Great topic/list. Other fun games that come to mind that shift turn order: Mission Red Planet, Pyramids, Trekking Through History, Parks, & Mobile Markets.
Awesome list, thank you. My top 3 are Lords of Waterdeep; taking the Castle Waterdeep action (and a card) to go first next round. Kingdomino Origins as mentioned in the video (in my opinion the best version of a Kingdomino game). 7 Wonders Duel, letting your opponent just have slightly more military than you so you can go first.
I'm a big fan of Anachrony's turn order mechanism. Where there's a worker placement slot that will give you first player at a cost, but the space will also allow you to take one of the three main actions if those actions are full on workers. So yeah, you can grab first player before any of the main actions fill up and it's not exactly economical, but the space kinda looms over things when you consider going to take the last action spot on of the main three and that can be a very difficult decision with how important each action is. And then also with how tight the game can be with resources, it might be pretty disruptive to someone's strategy to use the action that just got filled, so it isn't 100% that the next player is going to take the spot. I just love how the mechanism interacts with those three main actions while the board fills up. And then I also love Aeon's End's randomized turn order, but that's a very specific situation where I'd like it in a cooperative game like that. But it's something I love quite a bit about both it and Astro Knights.
Excellent list, great call on Kingdomino! Res Arcana's use of the pass-to-first stands out to me because the turn order token is worth 1 point. And a single point is hugely impactful in that game. This makes it valuable even on the last round.
You have to play The Battle of Versailles to find out a new twist. It's not only a change in the turn order of players but you can also change the order of all the phases of the turn, each turn and through the turn, even skip phases. Just for you to increase your hype, Chris 😃
Solid video. As soon as I saw title I assumed brass would be #1. Underrated one is Agricola. Simple: take an action to go first. It’s such an excruciating decision because you only get a few actions each turn so to use one to get first place and a minor improvement is really rough
I'd argue that 10 and 7 are the same. The only difference is that the 2 resources involved are "initiative+units" vs "initiative+power". What COULD be a difference (but idk Vaalbara) is that El Grande's order cards are all the same and always dwindling throughout the game so there's a memory aspect there too
I was really blown away by the strategic element of the turn order manipulation in Roads and Boats. At first it seemed really odd, and hard to wrap my brain around, but once I played a couple rounds it started to make sense and really blew my mind.
For Viticulture on one of Jamey's Stegmaier's blog entries he states he pretty much took the wake up track mechanic for Viticulture direct from Fresco way back in the day.
Great video and concept. I love discussions on specific game mechanics and I think super interesting nuance in some games can get lost when people talk about games as a whole. Kingdomino is one I would rank similarly highly on a list like this and I don't hear people talk about enough.
i wonder where you would put La Granja on this list (the siesta track, donkey tile portion), where you can choose to max out your free deliveries and (likely) go later in turn order in until the next delivery phase, or take fewer free deliveries and get higher on the siesta track to get ahead in turn order. Of the ones you mentioned, that "do more and go last" in Brass might be the closest?
This is a really interesting topic. I’m not sure I’ve played enough to create a list of ten for myself, but I’d have to say Viticulture, Libertalia, Castles of Burgundy, After the Empire, and Trekking Through History
Indonesia, a game I often champion, has an interesting system. You bid money for turn order, nothing new there. But there is also a Research phase where you can increase the value of your turn order bid (5x, 25x, 100x and 400x). Which means that if I have my bid worth 25x yours, I'm likely to win the turn order bid.
What a great list Chris! So many great titles here! Five Tribes, El Grande, Kingdomino, Broom Service (this last one I wish I could try some time). Azul is another that comes to mind but the only order being changed is to 1st place 😅 and Tokaido was the 1st game I played when your turned changed and it blew my mind 🤣
Those are all great (viticulture was the first to spring to mind when I saw the title). I'd also add Gloomhaven to the list. Initiative cards are very dynamic, and the way you are often forced to readjust your tactics because turn order didn't quite go the way you predicted makes it extra engaging and fun.
One alternative mechanism can be found in Everdell: keep the player order constant but have overlapping turns which create asymmetry. So one player might still be in spring whilst another might have moved into autumn already, withdrawing his workers from the board whilst other players still block action fields.
In general I find these mechanics really interesting, but the one problem I have with this mechanism as it can lead to accidental downtime. When the turn order bounces across the table instead of going in a usual clockwise or anticlockwise pattern often players will not realise it is their turn. In games like Clans of Caledonia (only when playing 4 players) when you are often trying to crunch and math out your whole round in the downtime between actions, sometimes it is easy for all players to not realise for a minute or two whose turn it is. Multiple moments like those end up extending the game length considerably. Yes it can be solved by someone being a 'ref' of the game and actively keeping track and telling people to take their turns, but that isn't necessarily a fun thing to have to do.
If I understand what you're describing with Thebes, AuZtralia uses that kind of time track too. You take an action which pushes your token along a time track more or less spaces depending on the action you took, and the next turn is always whomever is earliest on the time track. Very nifty mechanism.
I think Star Fleet Battles pioneered this idea. Your ship basically had a kind of dexterity, and that determine the frequency with which your shift was allowed a "tick" on the battle clock. High dexterity ships got a lot of "ticks" and low dexterity ships got fewer ticks. And you simply moved along the ever-refreshing time track and whoever was next got a turn.
This is one of the biggest things that draws me into a game. In addition to many on this list, I also really enjoy Pulsar 2849 and Trekking Through History
It dawned on me a few days ago we still have to do it. And I'm excited about it, but we've been so busy the past few months, haha. *about to board flight to Essen*
You totally missed the Colt Express game from Ludonaute, but I prefer the smaller card version of the game, Colt Super Express, because i like smaller portable games but also because of the easier and quicker play…also there is a Delorean time machine card mini expansion 🤣
Sorry Chris this list is invalid....you did not mention Pillars of the Earth genius way of doing turn order. Which I wish more games used, it is so elegant and yet keeps just a bit of randomization. :)
Chris you’re a boss. Just holding down the fort while everyone is in Las Vegas, Wendy is sick and you’re out here cranking out top 10s. 🙌🏾 that’s what’s up.
rearrange the game library- when they come back it’ll be sooo confusing 🤣
He's the DT secret weapon. The secret is kinda out now though.
What an amazing list !!! Well done ! I wish there were more such videos analysing and comparing certain game aspects. Huge value add and so insightful !
I love this unique top 10! Would love more of these!
Game mechanic-based top 10s could be interesting. But I guess you can't find 10+ variations for every game mechanic.
Patchwork does a great job of having a mixed up turn order used to a strategic affect. Probably the best I've seen. You're counting ahead, seeing if you'll get the 1x1 tile or if you can get an extra turn. Oh but wait, if I do that he'll get the tile I really need, so maybe I'll just take a catch up move and get paid so I can afford that tile after he moves.
Since I just played Castles of Burgundy this morning, I have to mention that the turn order in that game is a very important aspect. In Castles of Burgundy you can build several types of tiles. One of this type are the boats, and these boats decide turn order. The fight for these boats in order to know who will go first next turn create some interesting moments in the game: I can win many points right now, or take and build a boat so I am first next turn. Is it worth it?
Being first at the beginning of a new age (every 5 turns) is potentially a big deal, since every tiles in the market are wiped out and the market is reset with new tiles.
El Grande is a fantastic game, I totally agree that the turn order is a vital part of the game. I especially like the "I get last now, so I will be the first to play my card and will play my 13 to be first next round which happens just before scoring" tactic.
Great video! Even I wasn't aware of how many different kinds of variable turn order mechanics there are in board games.
10. Better effect has worse initiative
9. Bidding for Turn Order
8. Pass Order
7. Play initiative card
6. Wake up Track
5. Time Track
4. Brave-Cowardly Mechanic (Last Brave has to lead)
3. Stat-based Turn Order
2. Better Tile goes later next round
1. Bigger actions go later next round
The crazy thing in Brass is that you take 2 actions per turn, so if you time it right, you can take 4 actions in a row.
I admit the Wake up Track in Viticulture is a very cool mechanic, but I just don't like the rest of the game.
A crazy (but not necessarily good) thing in TI4 is that turn order is a tie break for victory.
TI4's action drafting is really clever, great one to mention.
My mind immediately went to Brass and The Great Zimbabwe.
TGZ’s economic Mancala auction is pure genius.
Liking this new Dice Tower after the now known "Yi Takeover". Thank you for keeping the content coming.
I'm glad you mentioned Fresco, wake up track is my fav
I think it might be worth mentioning trick taking games explicitly... Where (at least generally) the winner of the most recent trick leads off as the first player in the new trick. Again, that could be seen as a variation of some of the ones you've already listed, but it is such a common genre it feels like it's worth calling out.
Dungeon Petz has a really interesting turn order mechanism. Each player has a set of workers (imps), which they secretly split into group. Following this, the players reveal their imps, and then each group of imps can claim a worker placement spot on the main board, but the group/s with the most imps go first. You have to decide whether to use more of your workers to go earlier, and claim a specific spot on the board, or whether to spread out your imps and (hopefully) take more actions, as long as there are enough placement spots remaining.
Very informative and interesting list. Great job, Chris!
This video is great Chris!! I’d love more of these from the dice tower please. I appreciate the thoughtfulness and additional examples.
Side note: I envision Chris sitting at home in the evening staring off when Wendy asks what he’s thinking about. Chris’ reply: new top ten topics that I can include Broom Service in.
Great topic/list.
Other fun games that come to mind that shift turn order:
Mission Red Planet, Pyramids, Trekking Through History, Parks, & Mobile Markets.
Awesome list, thank you. My top 3 are Lords of Waterdeep; taking the Castle Waterdeep action (and a card) to go first next round. Kingdomino Origins as mentioned in the video (in my opinion the best version of a Kingdomino game). 7 Wonders Duel, letting your opponent just have slightly more military than you so you can go first.
I'm a big fan of Anachrony's turn order mechanism. Where there's a worker placement slot that will give you first player at a cost, but the space will also allow you to take one of the three main actions if those actions are full on workers. So yeah, you can grab first player before any of the main actions fill up and it's not exactly economical, but the space kinda looms over things when you consider going to take the last action spot on of the main three and that can be a very difficult decision with how important each action is. And then also with how tight the game can be with resources, it might be pretty disruptive to someone's strategy to use the action that just got filled, so it isn't 100% that the next player is going to take the spot.
I just love how the mechanism interacts with those three main actions while the board fills up.
And then I also love Aeon's End's randomized turn order, but that's a very specific situation where I'd like it in a cooperative game like that. But it's something I love quite a bit about both it and Astro Knights.
Great video! Thanks for the recommendations!
Excellent list, great call on Kingdomino!
Res Arcana's use of the pass-to-first stands out to me because the turn order token is worth 1 point. And a single point is hugely impactful in that game. This makes it valuable even on the last round.
You have to play The Battle of Versailles to find out a new twist. It's not only a change in the turn order of players but you can also change the order of all the phases of the turn, each turn and through the turn, even skip phases. Just for you to increase your hype, Chris 😃
Solid video. As soon as I saw title I assumed brass would be #1.
Underrated one is Agricola. Simple: take an action to go first. It’s such an excruciating decision because you only get a few actions each turn so to use one to get first place and a minor improvement is really rough
I'd argue that 10 and 7 are the same. The only difference is that the 2 resources involved are "initiative+units" vs "initiative+power". What COULD be a difference (but idk Vaalbara) is that El Grande's order cards are all the same and always dwindling throughout the game so there's a memory aspect there too
Excellent list!
I was really blown away by the strategic element of the turn order manipulation in Roads and Boats. At first it seemed really odd, and hard to wrap my brain around, but once I played a couple rounds it started to make sense and really blew my mind.
For Viticulture on one of Jamey's Stegmaier's blog entries he states he pretty much took the wake up track mechanic for Viticulture direct from Fresco way back in the day.
Wait, seriously? Have you not played Pillars of the Earth? That is by far my #1 game for this list!
Great video and concept. I love discussions on specific game mechanics and I think super interesting nuance in some games can get lost when people talk about games as a whole. Kingdomino is one I would rank similarly highly on a list like this and I don't hear people talk about enough.
This took a lot of work I bet! Well done!
i wonder where you would put La Granja on this list (the siesta track, donkey tile portion), where you can choose to max out your free deliveries and (likely) go later in turn order in until the next delivery phase, or take fewer free deliveries and get higher on the siesta track to get ahead in turn order. Of the ones you mentioned, that "do more and go last" in Brass might be the closest?
I was surprised not to see Azul on here. :)
This is a really interesting topic. I’m not sure I’ve played enough to create a list of ten for myself, but I’d have to say Viticulture, Libertalia, Castles of Burgundy, After the Empire, and Trekking Through History
Indonesia, a game I often champion, has an interesting system. You bid money for turn order, nothing new there. But there is also a Research phase where you can increase the value of your turn order bid (5x, 25x, 100x and 400x). Which means that if I have my bid worth 25x yours, I'm likely to win the turn order bid.
What a great list Chris!
So many great titles here! Five Tribes, El Grande, Kingdomino, Broom Service (this last one I wish I could try some time).
Azul is another that comes to mind but the only order being changed is to 1st place 😅 and Tokaido was the 1st game I played when your turned changed and it blew my mind 🤣
Those are all great (viticulture was the first to spring to mind when I saw the title). I'd also add Gloomhaven to the list. Initiative cards are very dynamic, and the way you are often forced to readjust your tactics because turn order didn't quite go the way you predicted makes it extra engaging and fun.
One alternative mechanism can be found in Everdell: keep the player order constant but have overlapping turns which create asymmetry. So one player might still be in spring whilst another might have moved into autumn already, withdrawing his workers from the board whilst other players still block action fields.
In general I find these mechanics really interesting, but the one problem I have with this mechanism as it can lead to accidental downtime. When the turn order bounces across the table instead of going in a usual clockwise or anticlockwise pattern often players will not realise it is their turn. In games like Clans of Caledonia (only when playing 4 players) when you are often trying to crunch and math out your whole round in the downtime between actions, sometimes it is easy for all players to not realise for a minute or two whose turn it is. Multiple moments like those end up extending the game length considerably. Yes it can be solved by someone being a 'ref' of the game and actively keeping track and telling people to take their turns, but that isn't necessarily a fun thing to have to do.
If I understand what you're describing with Thebes, AuZtralia uses that kind of time track too. You take an action which pushes your token along a time track more or less spaces depending on the action you took, and the next turn is always whomever is earliest on the time track. Very nifty mechanism.
I think Star Fleet Battles pioneered this idea. Your ship basically had a kind of dexterity, and that determine the frequency with which your shift was allowed a "tick" on the battle clock. High dexterity ships got a lot of "ticks" and low dexterity ships got fewer ticks. And you simply moved along the ever-refreshing time track and whoever was next got a turn.
This is one of the biggest things that draws me into a game. In addition to many on this list, I also really enjoy Pulsar 2849 and Trekking Through History
The great wall has a nice manipulation with the tea track and choosing which slot to use for your action cards.
'rag of actions' a great turn of phrase, nice
For the time track thing, I would recommend First In Flight.
Good video
Mangrovia has a unique way of determining turn order and first player
interesting unique top 10, thanks!! 😊
Tekhenu has the coolest turn order mechanic.
Games that have distinct areas/locations/places/tracks that offer turn order manipulation as reward eg Lockup, Tenpenny Parks, Lorenzo il Magnifico
Great list/video! Love Parfum too, and agree that it's underrated!
Networks features the #8 mechanism in a fun way too
My favourite mechanic. If a game has Turn Order Manipulation, GOOD chance I'll enjoy it.
Thanks👍
Wich one ist best with 2 Player?
No list at the end of the video?
Scoville is one of my favorites that has this mechanism.
Really surprised that For Sale didn’t make the list. The whole game is about turn order.
1. Also Cosmic Colonies
6. Also Zhanguo
Hi Chris, are you still going to make the top 100 statistics video this year?
It dawned on me a few days ago we still have to do it. And I'm excited about it, but we've been so busy the past few months, haha. *about to board flight to Essen*
Trekking Through History seems to have a similar mechanism to Brass
I feel like Alchemists was missing from the list (especially with the expansion), otherwise a pretty great one!
Never played it but undaunted?
Chris Yi! I love you!
Thebes is my no.1 game
Oops, spoiler alert
I think Glen More 2 Chronicles does it best
Alchemists uses a system similar to Viticulture.
What about Gutenberg?
Pulsar 2849
You totally missed the Colt Express game from Ludonaute, but I prefer the smaller card version of the game, Colt Super Express, because i like smaller portable games but also because of the easier and quicker play…also there is a Delorean time machine card mini expansion 🤣
That's an interesting one! The programmed actions lead to some hilarious moments.
@@DTChrisYi totally! Especially when your skimming goes wrong from the first card 🤣
Sorry Chris this list is invalid....you did not mention Pillars of the Earth genius way of doing turn order. Which I wish more games used, it is so elegant and yet keeps just a bit of randomization. :)
Came here to confirm Tuscany was on the list.