St George: the Indo-European Dragonslayer
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- Опубліковано 22 кві 2021
- Saint George was a Christian Greek soldier of the Roman Empire, from Cappadocia or perhaps Syria who was martyred for refusing to sacrifice to the Roman gods.
He was a heroic figure to people right across Christendom and one who was particularly attractive to soldiers because he had been one himself.
The serpent as a symbol in stories and art represents the external, the other, the great enemy, the demons, the evil that wants nothing but to destroy us.
And the dragon-slayer therefore represents order, stability, continuity.
He is the strong arm of the mighty that keeps chaos at bay.
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Sources
How to Kill a Dragon: Aspects of Indo-European Poetics - Calvert Watkins: amzn.to/3yeyXXe
Myth, Ritual, and the Warrior in Roman and Indo-European Antiquity - Roger D. Woodard: amzn.to/3w9sYB3
I've been posting the text to this video every St George's Day for the last four years at least on my website and social media. There is much more to be said about this mythmeme which is found in various forms in many places around the world and warrants another video all of its own in future. Let me know if you're interested in mythology videos.
Check out the whole Medieval History Playlist here: ua-cam.com/video/pst1mLsMZlQ/v-deo.html
If you enjoy ancient history and mythology I have more videos here:
People of the Bronze Age Playlist: ua-cam.com/play/PLUyGT3KDxwC8u4jG_tOjN-8-bsHxucUxn.html
Bronze Age Warfare Playlist: ua-cam.com/play/PLUyGT3KDxwC8xD2S2Q1IqH_S_ocWwXWHv.html
Ancient Mythology Playlist: ua-cam.com/video/YJvI-MUl9IQ/v-deo.html
Good stuff here bro. The most important aspect of the St. George myth for me is it's symbolic aspect to the psyche.
I've thought for quite some time that in these motiffs George represents our conscious mind, our will and the desire to do what we think is the right thing, whereas the Dragon represents our unconscious mind and the selfish desires that we think of as bad or evil, and in some iconography and artistic representations of the myth the Dragon can be seen biting or wrapping it's tail around St.George even in it's death throes as if the battle is not yet conclusively won, but is cyclic in nature. Because we have to fight our darker impulses not once, but over and over again.
The Dragon, the forces of chaos within our psyche must be confronted over and over again, which is why I think St. George and the Dragon has been such an enduring symbol of chivalry, wherever it is found.
Anyway I've been so impressed with the few videos I've watched of your content, I'm gonna have to read one of your books. Always need some good fantasy to read. Cheers mate.
@@dexocube I relate, Brother. Thanks for this insightful share.
I thank you for your mythology content and would appreciate further postings.
It goes beyond even just Indo-European as seen with Marduk vs.Tiamat in Mesopotamia and Ra vs. Apep/Apophis in Egypt.
Cadmus (the bringer of Aphabeg and Knowledge to the Greeks) the Phoenician Prince as well…
Proto-indo-Europeans invaded and took over one of those empires which changed up some of their mythology to match theirs.
I don’t remember the details but it’s interesting if you’re curious.
Also Baal versus Lotan / Litan in Canaanite mythos.
Didn't Gilgamesh & his friend, Enkidu, kill a monster in the forests of Lebanon?
@@DogWalkerBill yep! The majestic Cedars of God, a very unique sight to see in person!
Thanks for this really is brilliant and informing for what kind of figure Saint George is. I hate it when people berate the English by saying he was not English and using it for their political agenda, they really do miss the point. Saint George is now part of our heritage, and has been for the last 700-800 years.
Thank you, glad you enjoyed it.
Yet they never say the same about Patrick (British) or Andrew. The only native domestic patron saint is St. David.
Of course, there is always St. Edmund....
Very Indo-European
I've known about the Japanese myth of Orochi, an eight headed serpent slain by the storm God, Susa-no-o for decades but somehow, only made the connection to the other similar myths a few years ago. It blew my mind. While the myth is ancient, it isn't likely native to Japan. It was probably imported in the first few hundred years of the first millennium AD through contact with the Chinese who spread religious concepts from India. And so we have our proto-indo-european connection, all the way in Japan, so often isolated through history.
Reminds me of one of my absolute favorite short stories - The Valley of the Worm, by Robert E. Howard.
"I will tell you of Niord and the Worm. You have heard the tale before in many guises wherein the hero was named Tyr, or Perseus, or Siegfried, or Beowulf, or Saint George. But it was Niord who met the loathly demoniac thing that crawled hideously up from hell . . ."
Choaskampf. Interesting and universal myth. I will say that the motif isn't exclusively an Indo-European myth. Examples can be foubd as well in chinese and even mesoamerican and hawaiian mythology
Thanks yeah of course it's not exclusively Indo-European. I am looking at another truly ancient myth in a future video and there's a question of to what extent these similarities are due to a shared ancestry in the deep past vs cross cultural influences vs synchronicity due to basic human psychology vs coincidence or some sort of selection bias on our part. Like all complex real world things, it's probably a bit of all of that. But I think it's likely there were ongoing cultural influences between Indo-European cultures and Mesopotamian etc cultures through the Caucasus region. Well, there's no doubt about it actually, we know technology and resources went both ways.
@@DanDavisHistory Yeah, i have heard of theories of Canaanite and Mesopotamian versions of the myth being introduced to the area after the hittite migration. But i'm very excited to see that upcoming video you mentioned. Either though, it fascinating to think about these things
@@garethsmith3036 as far as I know Sumerians and Egyptians had their own dragonslayers before IE arrived in the Middle East. There are also dragonslayers in sub saharan Africa. It seems IE, Sumerians and Africans had more or less the same idea about dragons. China is different. As far as I know Chinese dragons are linked to order and civilization.
For Christians there are at least 2 dragonslayers before saint George. God himself in the Old Testament and archangel Michael in the book of Revelations. The influence might be Sumerian in origin like the flood... but I wouldn't discard some IE elements. Rival twins for example is very typical in IE myths, and we also have some versions of that in the Bible.
@@12318529 There are various examples of Chinese myths with the typical chaoskampf motifs, while Dragons are considered auspicious and powerful, they don't seem to be as universally good as people comparing them to other traditions make out. While not always the one who fights or defeats Gonggong (a serpantine dragon water deity), or Xiangliu (a nine headed serpentine dragon), Nuwa, interestingly herself a Dragon Goddess,often said to have made the first humans, plays the part of the restorer/recreator of the world. She uses parts of some fallen deity (sometimes killing the giant turtle Ao) to uphold the heavens, 'creating the firmament', you know, all that good stuff.
"The Courage of Catherine, The Flames of the Forge! The Sword of Saint Michael, The Blood of Saint George!" - Heather Dale "Joan"
All-Father bless Dan Davis, and glory be upon him. May Tyr and Thor knock his enemies to their knees.
St George was also the patron saint of Genoa in Italy which during the Middle Ages was one of the great maritime and commercial powers of Europe -the Genoese empire extended right across to the Crimea,Russia and the Ukraine and it was a Genoese ship returning from the Genoese port of Kaffa in the Crimea that brought the Black Death to Europe.There are huge Genoese castles and forts still in existence in the Crimea and elsewhere today.Genoese were also highly skilled archers and their mercenaries fought with the French and others during the 100 Years War.Genoese banks like that of St George fueled the Spanish Empire in its heyday and generals fought in the Spanish and Imperial armies.Andrea Doria was a famed Genoese admiral who fought the Ottoman Turks.
I noticed the pic of Daniel Craig from Sharpe when you mentioned the Redcoats, a man of culture I see :)
Love St. George. George is my middle name. It comes from "Georgos," farmer in Ancient Greek.
Not only in ancient Greek, in modern Greek too
"Cry 'God for Harry, England, and Saint George!'"
Shakespeare's birthday today, isn't it.
@@DanDavisHistory By George, I believe you were right!
Dan Davis: George is England’s hero since he’s not associated with really any other country.
Us in Palestine: 👀 *literally blessing our horses with his name*
It’s largely rumored that the city Saint George found the evil dragon terrorizing was in modern day Palestine, and so his miracle took place here. He’s the unofficial patron Saint of many middle easter countries.
He happens to be the emblem of Moscow too. A popular figure!
I grew up hearing the story of St. George from my mother. Good memories there :)
If I have it right, the name "George" means "farmer."
So farmer turned soldier turned dragon slayer turned saint? Try having your interview after his and see if you get the job.
@@hoperules8874
Interviewer: Mr George this job is for tech support.
@@Jake-zk3eb yeah, but clearly a quick learner who rapidly meets or exceeds expectations--with a stack of references! lolz! But I like your style Jed!
If you want to get a more complete understanding of the dragon myth across cultures, I highly recommend Erich Neumann's book Origins and History of Consciousness. It's a depth psychology (aka Jungian) analysis of religious archetypes, and the dragon symbol definitely factors in heavily.
Thank you.
In Old English there is the word wyrm, which can be translated as worm/snake/dragon.
Saint George is celebrated in Bulgaria on May 6, combining a traditional agricultural fest, marking the beginning of summer, a Christian holiday and the Day of the Army. Since Saint George is, for obvious reasons, the patron saint of the army, there is a military parade on this day.
This reminds me of Kralyevich Marko who, at least in folk memory and paintings, resembles Sabazios the Thracian horse warrior god.
I didn't know that, thanks. You do see these kinds of motifs repeating in new forms over and over again. The inherent truth and meaning remains while the form is modernised or developed. It's fascinating.
@@DanDavisHistory Also, there was medieval Order of Dragon popular in some south and central European countries (HRE, Serbia, Hungaria). Order of Dragon evolved from the Order of St. George.
In Serbian epic poetry, a dragon has a somewhat positive meaning, so some medieval noblemen got Dragon as a nickname if he fought bravely and even later some warriors from the XVIII century.
Saint George is considered a warrior saint and often depicted beside saint Demetrios in churches.
Thank you for the video
@@DanDavisHistory It really is fascinating.
@@Bayubadu Is that the same order that Vlad the Impaler was a member of?
@@photinodecay Yes it is :)
Excellent Work!! Thank you!
Glad you liked it, cheers.
Marduk slayung Tiamat is another example.
I believe that St. George was a real historical person. And he certainly is a symbol of both Catholic and Pan-European pride! A true Indo-European symbol indeed!
Another example is in Slavic mythology, where our thunder and sky god Perun kills the serpant
In northern Afghanistan we have Alpamysh
The original dragon was not a representation of chaos in PIE mythology, but a representation of the three headed god worshipped by many non-Indo-European tribes, hence why the dragon has three heads in many myths and the warrior was called Trito (meaning Third) and again in many myths the warrior is the 3rd son, or hits the dragon 3 times etc, and the princess was actually a cow. It is only later that the dragon gets transformed into a symbol of chaos, normally by psychologists who don't understand the origin of the myth (look up the Cattle Raiding Myth by Bruce Lincoln). I hope you find this useful, and the part of your video about St George was interesting. Thank you.
I've read Bruce Lincoln's work on this.
@@DanDavisHistory So if you don't mind me asking, where do you see this psychology of the dragon representing chaos? I've heard Jordan Peterson talk about it, and I wish he knew more about PIE. But interested in other sources I may have missed. Thanks :)
Read Calvert Watkins How to Kill a Dragon. He uses linguistics to demonstrate the "dragon represents chaos" relationship.
eg "The dragon symbolizes Chaos, in the largest sense, and killing the dragon represents the ultimate victory of Cosmic Truth and Order over Chaos."
@@DanDavisHistory Thank you, I appreciate that
Some more mensions are Apollo striking Python, Zeus and Typhon and probably the oldest of them all Marduk and Tiamat though not indoeuropean. New to the channel btw, your content is excellent! Thank you!
Great video. Thanks very much I hope this gradually gets around to 1000's of views. I'm having St Georges week this yr so I think I'll watch your video everyday 😄👍🏼
Thank you! Enjoy your St George's week.
Thanks Dan, i really like your reading so far, as even though is fantasy it's based in great legendary stories and mythologies, that are obviously based on historical sources
Very interesting video as always.
I keep watching these to relax and learn something new.
Great stuff :D
Thank you.
Thank you so much.. The Dragon. So important.. Sigurd Snake in the Eye. Thor and Jorgamonder..
A very ancient archetype. One that we should continue to perpetuate, while understanding its original source.
I read your prequel to gods of bronze. It definitely has some eaters of the dead vibes, lovin it! Come pay-day I'll have to get started reading on the main book!
Glad you enjoyed the story, hope you like the rest of the series.
@@DanDavisHistory As hobbies I like to write and read up on history, The bronze age is such a hard subject to find solid info on and is a totally untapped area for fiction and fantasy. I bet something on the bronze age collapse could be a really killer story. It seems kinda like the sea peoples exterminated most major civilizations and we know virtually nothing about them!
Happy St George’s day everyone
St George would not have had stirrups, but is always pictured that way. Stirrups were introduced to the region hundreds of years after his supposed death from Central Asia. And the other heros in the pictures all seem to be on foot. The exception is the flying horse, but notice the lack of stirrups as well. So I guess the horse is an adaptation by the Crusaders.
Stirrups came to Europe with Avars. There are many Avar necropolises with horse burials.
Amazing video! Before this I never heard of the symbolism of the slaying of the serpent. It represents the fight against the last of the cycles, iron age, kali yuga, ragnarök and generally chaos. Truly eye opening.
Thank you. You can look up "Chaoskampf" for the mythological concept.
@@DanDavisHistory I will. Gotta say that I am not really read up on all of this!
Funny how Indo-Europeans have legends about fighting dragons and the Bible describes Satan as a dragon at times, while the Chinese revere dragons.
It is interesting! Def shows the different views and perspectives of humans, how reptiles are just animals but their meaning is so different to different people.
@@easternflower6476 Or maybe a powerful being with foreknowledge was trying to tell us something about how history would climax.
Oo! I made friends with a lady from Vietnam who was certain that birds were an evil omen! In Judeo-Christian thought, they are a sign of hope or peace! The Chinese of old always thought that a comet or a drought/famine meant that the Emporer had lost their mandate from heaven and hence, their right to rule--so the poor people would rise up and take out the ruler!
It interests me how regional cultures view different events/experiences. In many cultures with very regimented religions where ritual had to be observed or the world would end, change was traumatic. (Mayans, most Aboriginal religions in Australia, and more modernly-millenarian sects like Heaven's Gate)
Excellent video I hope you get many more viewers
Thank you, I appreciate it.
I just finished Thunderer, and I am about to start The Vampire knights. Very excited.
I think one could easily add to the list Bellerophon killing the Chimera by aid of Pegasus the winged steed.
You deserve a larger audience. It is nice to get some perspective on the non Mesopotamian world.
Great video. Subbed.
Thank you.
The icon of St. George is based upon the Thracian Rider or Thracian Horseman and is part of the Pagan Cult of the Danubian Knights/Danubian Horsemen which predates the well known Christian image with the dragon. The images are almost identical except that in the original Thracian Horseman instead of the dragon was a boar but interestingly enough same Thracians/Dacians had a dragon on their flag also known as Draco.
Very well done
Thank you I appreciate your support Anders
The original Dracula (Vlad Tepes III, the Impaler): the name "Dracula" mean, "Son of the Dragon."
In Catalonia we celebrate Saint George on 23rd April, in catalan Sant Jordi, this day is also considered a romantic day because all women recive a rose as a present, and everyone recives a book, actually long time it was men that gived roses to women and books were usually a present for men or for both. We love Saint George ❤️
I can't help but wonder about any truth in the occult videos that talk about the slaying of the dragon as a reference to overcoming an ancient snake cult, or maybe a reference to kundalini energy
Ooh, St George killing the Dragon of Chaos is an interesting and cool idea! Like humanity fighting and beating the world that would be our end. The human spirit over the world, the universe even. I like this a lot :D
Saint George pray for us
I'm a little surprised you mentioned Perseus killing Medusa and Herakles killing the Lernaean Hydra as examples of the hero vs snake-monster motif, but you didn't mention the myth of Bellerophon taming/breaking/riding Pegasus and killing the Chimera with a lead spear that melts in the flames of the Chimera's mouth and kills it by suffocation, which seems to fit the St George myth archetype even better [[man on horse kills fire-breathing monster with a spear]]
That said, still an interesting video to watch, thanks for making the content you do!
Thank youu
Lemme spit some facts, mkay?
It was the future Emperor of Mankind, fighting Void Dragon before imprisoning him on Mars.
My theory is that someone kill a crocodile and everyone around was like: "He must be a saint"
No
Very interesting
I find it interesting that other Cultures have the Serpent is the symbol of Knowledge, Wisdom, and for the Chinese, protection and Natural Forces.
Yes indeed although of course it has multiple and seemingly contradictory meanings for Indo-European and other cultures. In Ancient Greece (an Indo-European culture influenced by neighbouring non-IE cultures) it was associated with healing and rebirth and so on (due to the shedding of skin) and there are evil snakes in the Hebrew Bible. Think of the Tannin who is referenced repeatedly who is associated with water (the sea) and represents chaos and evil. It's called a sea monster or sea serpent.
Nomadic people see serpent as evil: PIE and Hebrew for instant.
yes, the snake is quite an ambiguous symbol in European cultures. There are German fairytales about a snake queen living with thousands of their sisters in a farmstead, peacefully side by side with the peasants, and as long the snakes are there the farm is wealthy and prosperous, the people take kindly care of the snakes and there is no harm coming from them, on the contrary, they are blessing the location. But one day one deluded guy comes and is slaying the snake queen, and then all the snakes are leaving the place, and the farm is falling into poverty, misfortune and destitute.....
I was just thinking how the serpent/dragon might also be an archetype for something other than chaos, since the Chinese consider children born in this sign lucky. The viking ships often carried dragonheads, too. Could you please elaborate on this aspect as well?
Btw, my hometown, Holstebro, Denmark has in its coat of arms »St. Jørgen and the Dragon«
I believe St. George tended to become St. Jørgen in Scandinavia.
The serpent has many meanings in many cultures, often representing more than one thing. Symbology is complex and symbols can have what seem to us to be contradictory meanings. The Chinese have a separate tradition of course unrelated to Indoeuropean myth and meanings can change over time too. Serpents were associated with rebirth and regeneration because of shedding skin and are related to health in the Greek tradition. And the Chaos Serpent is one specific aspect, it doesn't mean that's how all IE peoples saw all snakes, not at all.
@@DanDavisHistory Yes, health is also a dragon aspect in Chinese astrology. I think I’m really pleading for a dragon special video from you... 😉
The serpent in the orient represents wisdom and Knowledge, one clever and tricksterish.
To most europeans the dragon was the great Enemy of good, to be destroyed by a righteous Hero.
To the vikings jörmangundr a Leviathan in the waters who swims in the deeps surrounding the earth.
one not to be trifled with by man, yet slain by the son of their god Odin. At the cost of the son’s life.
So, we Georgians who aren't Indo-European, worship Indo-European Saint? Anyway Happy St. Georges day! 🇬🇪
Yes indeed. Of course there has always been contact between Georgia and the indoeuropean cultures in Anatolia and North of the black sea. I keep meaning to make a video about Colchis, I must do that.
@@DanDavisHistory good luck 👍🏻
@@georgeseeker3288 this is just a huge presumption on his part, comming from his romantic idea of full continuity betwen ancient Indo-Europeans and modern Europeans (that's a not so huge presumption on my part).
Dragon slaying myths are recorded in the Near East before the Indo-European expansion, in Egypt and Mesopotamia. These myths seem to be pretty universal, at least in the Middle East/Western Eurasia, so i would think that they were part of Caucasian myth also.
This explains why the God-Emperor from Warhammer 40k is said to have been St. George.
Today St George might be charging the AI monster
Interestingly, George in a Slavic and especially South Slavic context, though a popular saint associated with warfare, is not a stand in for Perun, that role is taken by the prophet Elijah who in Serbia and Bulgaria is called The Thunderer.
The cult of St. George, rather, takes on aspects of the pre Christian cult of Yarilo, a bright, youthful God of male fertility and husband of Morana, goddess of death who he cheats on every fall, resulting in his death, which causes winter. To me he always seemed like a male Persephone though the proper Interpretatio Graeca for Yarilo is as Dionysus because of his association with fertility, joy, the phallus, and their celebrations falling on similar dates.
It’s mainly because South Slavic dvovjerje (dual faith, essentially cryptopaganism) whose traditions were later completely absorbed into genuine and pure, rather than simply performative Christianity based its saint-God equivalencies not on attributes but on the date of their feast days.
St. George’s day on the Julian calendar is May 6th, right in the beginning of spring, aligning closely with the festival of Yarilo’s rebirth, similarly the feast of St. Elijah in the early winter is known for thunder during snowstorms, which was once associated with Perun fighting monsters, but is today associated with St. Elijah doing battle with demons, evil dragons (which are a distinct species from good dragons), witches, and Satan himself.
Even the Japanese have a version of this where the storm god Susanoo no Mikoto slays the eight headed serpent/dragon Yamata no Orochi
Well somewhere like automatical heroes throughout history and mythology
His grave is Lod...Refused to sacrifice to the God-Emperor
Beowulf and Grendel
Don’t forget Tarhunna vs Illuyanka
The female gods demanded human sacrifices. Hence the dragon stories often say the dragon, who is always female, demanded young persons to eat. The corrupted later dragon stories talk of the dragon demanding maidens but originally the female gods demand the sacrifice of men, young men, sometimes princes or priest kings.
I don't live in any of the mentioned countries yet Saint George (Sveti Jurij) is a popular motiff where I come from. One possible reason might be that my home town was founded from a fief that was granted to Knights of Malta in the 13th Century.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komenda
Very interesting, thank you for sharing.
why is Chaos sometimes a serpent and sometimes a dragon?
It's the same thing really. A dragon is a mythological serpent.
You have an important mistake: that's not the Catalonia flag, this is the secesionist flag, not the real one. The real one is the red and yellow lines only.
The Saint George's cross was used by the Barcelona Countess since the Middle Age, and it's in the local flag in Barcelona.
How could you forget to mention Cadmus, the original dragonslayer of greek mythology?
Beowulf slew a dragon
Oh, a video about my spiritual ancestor ;)
King Krak (Krakus, Krok, Kruk) was the real hero of Krakow.
Regardless if actual, mythical dragonslayer was Krak the older or Krak the younger alongside his brother (sons of the older Krak)
Anthropologists suggest 5 dates as dates of this event (so it is highly unclear when did it happen):
- c.a. 730 AD when Avars have been defeated,
- c.a. 1300 BC when ancestors of most (50%) of Polish people came from nowadays Bavaria (Lechhausen, and Lech river areas),
- c.a. 2100BC when old kind of settlements have been burnt down and new one were established, in upper Vistula area,
- c.a. 3500 BC when ancestors of almost all (over 90%) of Polish people came from Dneper-Don-Volga area
- between 55k BC and 7k BC, when humans' culture was still in formation period, and could have passed down this story to all non-African, non-Papuan and non-Australian peoples
The Emprah P R O T E C C
St. Geowulf
01:20 Not the current Catalonia´s flag. That is the secessionist one.
Some 7,530 years ago, according to the Slavic Calendar, Aryans defeated Ancient China - The Great Dragon.
I think the hero(eagle) vs the serpent has deeper esoteric meaning. The snake/serpent/dragon also represented wisdom and enlightenment at least as far back as ancient Scythia/sacae/masegatae (2000bc).The house of Karen and the Alan's. Not to mention ancient china/Korea/japan, egypt/india (all clearly influenced by indo european (Aryan) culture). I think maybe the theme of the eagle(greek/roman ect.) killing the serpent represents an ancient rift among the 12 tribes(the serpent being the missing13th tribe of dan)likely perverted by the church This symbol is seen thru to the modern day(Usa dollar bill and.countless flags and code of arms). Just a working theory that obviously is considerably more complex and worth looking into!
Dragon and ring of fire
The Holy Roman Catholic took every myth, pagan ritual and holiday from the countries it conquered and made them part and parcel of the Catholic pantheon of saints and Holy days. They had to make converting a wee bit more familiar to the pagans they conquered. In today's world it would be called " getting buy in " .
Poor dragon though
The giant serpent of chaos is more general than Indo-European: see the Sumerian Tiamat.
So exactly what did he do.
huh?
I love to see St. George lore and connections between the reverence of St. George and pre Christian traditions.
The Orthodox St George’s day (May 6th) is my family’s feast day.
Serb families (and some from nearby Serb-influenced cultures) have patron saints whose feast days they celebrate. One’s patron saint is a more important indicator of kinship than a surname, which were patronymic. While neither alone necessarily indicates kinship, sharing both a surname and a feast day almost certainly does.
More broadly, St. George’s day is a national holiday in both Serbia and Bulgaria and he is the patron of both countries’ militaries and of Bulgaria as a whole. Some Bulgars still sacrifice bulls to “st. George and totally not a pagan God”, Serbs light bonfires to aid “George” in a battle against demons and witches (fighting demons and witches is something every male benevolent entity in Serbian folklore does). We also wake up before sunrise and don’t sleep on St. George’s day or at least don’t nap until we wake up.
It’s also a major holiday for the Romani (Gypsies) of Eastern Europe who call it Ederlezi, after a Muslim festival celebrating the meeting of the prophet Elijah and Al Khidr “the green man”, a mystical guide for Sufis and quranic prophets. Roma of all epreligions celebrate it though Christians often use the names St. George’s day and Ederlezi interchangeably. Muslim Roma also co-opt a few of Orthodox Christian Easter traditions into their Ederlezi celebrations. Roma let candles down rivers in a ritual reminiscent of those along the sacred rivers in their ancestral homeland of India.
Both the Romani and the Slavs wear crowns of willow branches during St. George’s day picnics and decorate their homes with flowers, especially Lily of the Valley which Serbs call Đurđevak, something like George’s plant (given context, it’s literally just small thing belonging to George).
All in all, May 6th is a huge day in the Balkans. For example in 2020 Serbia lifted COVID restrictions for the day so people could celebrate. The tradition of the St. George’s day dawn picnic (uranak) was even co-opted by Yugoslav Communists for international worker’s day (May 1st).
El_Choctaw-lord_de-AztlanMexicoCalifas 🐜🐜
See also Turin son of Hurin. He wasn't a good guy, though.
I wonder what did the Yamnaya peoples saw as symbols of chaos when they started sending the Koryos bands all over the place...If Indo European myths are formed arround the eternal struggle between the forces of order and chaos, I wonder if those the young men from the Koryos ever thought that perhaps They were bringing chaos and terror and suffering and death to the poor settled peoples...
I guess a more straightforward reasoning would be: you are a wolf, and if you don't take what this people have you and your brothers will starve and die. If you don't take their women, you won't have any sons to carry your name and your deeds to future generations and your memory will die, and your ancestors' memories will die too....
Yes you're right I think. It's your right to take what is needed to make your people stronger. If you don't then your people will die.
For pre-modern societies it's more that order and law only applies to "us" rather than "them". We are the only real fully-human humans and what would be terrible crimes if committed against our own people are nothing of the kind committed against outsiders. Order is what we create for us. Everything outside "us" is chaos already.
🤠👍🏿
Another Greek myth
- Apollo vs Python
Thank you for this! I have tried to understand St. George and the dragon but I find mythology to be exceedingly tedious and boring. Simplicity always led to the thought, "A dragon in Britain? REALLY???? What's the basis for that?!?" And yet St. George is still a revered figure.....etc....
(Forgive me, but Harry Potter slew the basilisk..... I understand that one.) ;-)
Mythologised.
If he ever existed?...... triggered
no they're real dragons. wtf
What's about the theory the origin of the dragonkiller is Arminius in the battle of the Teutoburg Forest? The Roman Army marching in the shape of a gigantic snake through the countryside, the roman cavalry ensign, the hollow crocodile head made of bronze with its long red windsleeve at its back. Arminius as the wearer of a magic hood which maybe was a synonym for his double-cross actions. And a treasury found inside the cathedral hill in the north german town of Hildesheim, the silver dinner service from a roman officer probably looted on the battlefield of the roman defeat in 9 AD as the origin of Siegfrieds treasury which he stole from the dragon he had killed. At last his marriage with Thusnelda, Segimers daughter. Her father had signed a marriage contract with a Chatti nobleman for her and the Chatti chief's son. This wedding was a violation of traditions and rules of the antique germans and led to the feud in which Arminius was killed at last. And the name Siegfried may also has a cheruski origin as two of Arminius relatives were Segestes and Segimer. The syllable "Seg" or "Sieg" is a denomination for a deer in the cheruski language, the deer as a totem of this tribe, the men where companions or guardians of a deer. All this details fit to Sigurd in the nordic sagas and to Siegfried of the later german tale. This is a theory as we do not know Arminius' germanic name nor do we know the germanic name of his brother Flavus. But this are a lot of matches between history and tales.
This is ignorant.
The Dragon represents the female godhead of pre-history who is destroyed by the new male godhead at the dawn of historical times.
I'm getting the sense that the understanding of this serpent slaying myth you present is slightly distorted to fit better with your narrative. The serpent didn't represent any "other" or any outsider. It was just evil in that it stole something of value such as cattle, women, or even just stopped the waters. There's nothing suggesting that it was (according to the mythology) from any other place or looked weird/foreign.
Of course it's an outsider. It's never a figure of the tribe is it. The serpent creature dwells elsewhere, in a cave or under the sea or on a mountain. The untamed uncontrolled wilderness beyond the borders of our place. The monster steals something of value and takes it *away*. Its otherness and externality are central.
@@DanDavisHistory You don't rly need to go anywhere to block waters from flowing/being accessed. The stopping of waters is the best attested part of the the mythology in explaining why the serpent and hero are in conflict.
Also, it's a serpent. So it would be quite odd if it were a member of the tribe lmao. But that's not to say that snakes would be very uncommon or rare to the proto-indo-europeans or any of their later descendents.
Externality is vitally important to the myth. The waters are blocked at the source, the spring head, and the hero figure travels from the ordinary dwelling place to smite the monster and release the waters. In Indo-Iranian versions the source is mountains or caves - external to the normal dwelling place. In later Germanic examples the serpent is always external and often within the earth, whether the Midgard serpent in the ocean depths, when Fafnir becomes a dragon he physically leaves the world of men, Beowulf travels to the dragon's lair. Even in Bruce Lincoln's reconstruction of the original theft of the cattle the thief is an outsider that takes the prizes away and must be pursued.
The division of the world for Indo-European peoples (not exclusively them of course) at its most fundamental is between the home region and everything else. Home vs wilderness. Our land / range / area we control vs everything else on the earth. The rules for ethical conduct extended to one's own people within one's own place. When youths joined the koryos they left the rules of home behind and lived in the wilderness like wolves. The PIE word *haelnos ‘beyond, yonder’ is based on the same root that gives Proto-Indo-European ‘other’; *de¯ ‘away (from)’ (e.g. OIr di ‘away’, Lat de¯ ‘away’). The serpent manifests in the other place.
No, you're wrong in this case. In almost all Indo-European myths, the creatures of chaos are represented in certain forms, one of these being the serpent. Jormungandr is a Jotunn, for exmaple, which are chtonic/chaotic beings that are opposed to the Gods who represent the divine order. We see similar motifs in Russian mythology as well. Tugarin and Zmei Gorynych are both creatures of chaos that challenge the established order of the King/country (they both bring disorder to the very halls of the king). The King (most of the time Vladimir the "Fair Sun") is paralleled with the divine ruler, and intimately tied to both light and the sun.
We see the similar dicothomy in Hinduism between the asura and the devas. The word "deva" is cognate with the words diety, deus, dieva etc and is used to represent the heavenly beings of order. Asura is the opposite, representing the chaotic, chtonic, earthly. Vritra is an asura, for example, and is battled by Indra, who happens to be a deva.
@@tamerofhorses2200 You have not disagreed with me.
There are none so blind as those who cannot see. The dragon and serpent represent the same force being that of the light, they are the good guys. The dragon is known to breathe fire symbolising the baptism of the Holy Spirit the dragon is the anointed one who's power is derived from the Holy spirit. The serpent symbolises the wisdom of enlightenment to be wise as serpents as the biblical saying goes. Anyone who seeks to destroy this dynamism is working against the good of humanity. The name George is a theophoric name being one that bears the name of a god there is only one God that fits this frame being an epithet of Zeus in his guise as Zeus Georgos meaning the husbandman. Zeus also known through antiquity as Baal, Enlil, Ammon, Set an, Jupiter, Melquart, Hercules and Yahweh to name a few is the great deceiver and certainly not a Saint as would be understood rather a scoundrel cloaked in virtue.
I want St. Thomas A Becket.... far more suitable sait for England... and a real person not a made-up one.
Of course, there's always Draco Malfoy from the Harry Potter series.
And he did ? 📙 Called evil life 📜 not a ✋🖕t called 📀d times the beast ? 💬? Unsayable 👅e n named 🐊 all ✨too not a 🐾🕸️ n 👢 wats📘 heaven takes 🌏 n own place 📗 myths dragons breathe 🔥 Psalms ✍️
Schizos be gone
Interesting that you seem to have never heard about the importance of St. George with (Shia) muslims. Especially interesting because those grumpy warrior myths of old are much more prevalent and alive in the mountains of Iran and east Kurdistan than they are in the UK or anywhere in Europe for that matter.
THAT WAS CRINGE!