Ok guys, I'll post up the comparison video. It's pretty salty and typical of the episodes that don't leave the cutting room floor after production (we record a lot more than we upload, and when you think of the low quality of what we DO upload, you can only imagine what we don't put up!). Anyway, I'll put it up in the next 12 hours or so I think, but keep in mind, it's super nitpicky and generally mediocre AF.
Recently lost a buddy & 30 year wargaming friend. We used to paint and listen to videos (yours & bring & battle mainly) Still listening and remembering better times. Thanks for leaving these up.
Firstly, would love to hear the video on the model comparisons, I've got my fingers crossed for you giving Typhon the once over. As someone who played 40K and Heresy in sixth and and exclusively Heresy in 7th here are my two pence. I have no experience based opinion on 7th 40K as I avoided it like the bubonic plague because it was ruined from the outset. Sixth worked really well for HH and okay for 40K with some exceptions. Monstrous creature rules were very poorly thought through and did not reconcile well with the vehicle damage systems at all, many players just looked at is as nonsense; this affected the heresy badly because the automata were MCs and were dominant until the revised lists came out, and even then the robots remained very powerful units. 8th dealt with this very well with this big problem by re-adopting the universal damage system of 1st Edition Rogue Trader. D-weapon rules were complete bollocks in 7th and whoever designed them should be taken out and shot. 6th and 7th had a lot of clunky mechanics that constantly broke the rhythm of the game up with random stuff thrown at players like run move tests, dangerous terrain tests, deep strike tests, blast weapon scatter, vehicle damage table results, sweeping advance tests*, reserve rolls, fear tests, outflanking rolls and so on and on. These had two serious impacts on the game, first was the slowing down of game play and the second was to put players in the situation that they constantly got given the middle finger by lady luck because of all the random tests that could screw their battle plan. True, war is random but 40K already has a huge variability of outcomes engineered into the hit roll, damage and save systems and didn't need layers of extra uncertainty splodged on top.... it might give players a fighting chance in tournaments but it got tiresome in day to day gaming. *Sweeping advance rules were complete garbage because of the hack job committed when lifting them out of WHFB. Whichever muppet was responsible for this forgot that all important balancing mechanic of the rank bonus that made it highly unlikely heavily outnumbered units could overrun and wipe out numerically superior opponents. This made the lives of the already challenged Heresy World Eaters just that little bit more crap. Haywire became absurdly powerful as GW and FW wrote more and more units in with weapons of this type. Forge World were and remain one of the worst offenders here with the deliciously effective but broken Vultarax. That said, I had loads of fun playing Horus Heresy in sixth and seventh. It worked particularly well for Legion vs. Legion combat and that ranks as some of the finest 40K I've ever played. Which brings us to the real issue at work here: it's not the rulesets that were generally the problem with any edition of 40K, it was the poorly balanced armies with highly divergent troop types that caused 90% of the problems. Thanks for the video :)
You don't know what you're asking for hahaha Everything has a flow on effect, you're right. Abusable rules plus highly abusable armies is 7th in a nutshell. When it was played as intended, it was great, but 'as intended' only seemed to apply to Heresy, especially when you look at the competitive meta.
I'd love to see the video chaos comparison video. Another fantastic discussion here, and one that hopefully people will watch and realise that you are attempting to look at each edition objectively.
I feel like I'm slowly waking from an awesome dream, slowly realising I'm in a dystopian reality. 40k is my ultimate nostalgia kick, I started in 2nd and had little love for any of the later editions. What I want to know is how did they convince us we were getting our game back, and that the rules would take us back to the good old days? It moves faster, sure because the game's been $igmarised. The thing is, I wasn't the only one who fell for it. GW made record sales and ran out of stock because there was so much good will and support from the old guard; how did we all get it so wrong?
One of the bigger problems with 7th was that you needed 3-5 books to build a competitive army. I was hoping 8E would fix that but it made it worse! You need 4 books just to play Chaos DG; Index, CSM, DG and FW Index. Why? because GW chose not to include some options without models in the CSM or DG books. Same problem with SM, you need all 3 books to field them because they didn't include any units without models. Then GK comes out and has units not available and WD puts out an article on how to convert one. Why the fuck didn't they do that for SM units? You can take the White Scars dude but he can't ride a bike... THE CHAPTER WHOSE WHOLE GIMMICK IS BIKES CANT USE ONE ON THEIR SPECIAL CHARACTER!!
It's the release schedule that's responsible for the flaws with 8th more than anything. they are rushing and pushing and pushing to get content out the window for 8th edition, not fully proof-reading it, not fully play-testing it. If they weren't in such a rush, maybe they could do a better job, but having played since 2nd ed, it doesn't seem to matter how much time you give GW, they still can really drop the ball. Let's hope they get it together.
Meanwhile they allow a Grandmaster in Dreadknight and create a how to convert article in a Whitedwarf....they could have sold more WD if they added Marines and Chaos marines characters on bikes in the codexes paired with an article of how to build them.
Given that in the index a Wolflord can ride a bearwolf just like the rest of the SW cavalry. Figure out what the pointcost would be and use it! They'll come back to it, some common sense crept into their scribinghalls.
You don't need(!) the index if you have a codex. And FW was always excluded from the regular GW stuff, mom and dad have returned in nogging matronomy yet. As for the grand Deathguard split from tge rest is beyond me, besides every chaosgod would have a codex with his prized pet-legion. Here's looking at Malal with Nightlords (because i haven't given up on loyal-rebelious-traitor Alpa Legion yet).
I still play 7th. Me and my friends try to make our lists relatively balanced. We use some formations on occasion and we have relatively balanced but incredibly fun games. I explained the rules for 8th to my friend I play against most and he said 8th sounds retarded (I agree 8th is retarded but I tried to sell the positive aspects of 8th and it wasn't enough to make up for the negative changes lol)
For me 40k was all about little men in their metal bawkses. I like to get as many minis on the table as possible, put them in vehicles to reduce time spent in the movement phase.
The reason GW didn't make a 25% and 2000 points restriction on Lords of War in 7th is because they wanted to push Imperial Knights as their own faction, and not as an optional extra for other armies. They wanted to encourage people to go out and buy their overpriced baby Titan kits, and having them restricted to 25% of a list and only over 2000 points would prevent people from playing a pure Knight army.
There are pure knight armies in 30k, but they are terrible at objective play and each time you kill a knight it rewards you additional VP's as the 'price of failure'. Again, a few little caveats and Lords of War can be made to work.
I don't agree with your views on 8th ed but I like these "historical" GW vids. I would love to see this exact same video for even earlier editions if possible. I only got to play a handful of 4th, 5th and 6th ed games so it would be fun to hear what your thoughts and experiences were shifting between those editions. On your question about 7th ed foul taste being wiped out, I found that to be exactly the case for me. I still play 30k but it has become quite a drag in my local meta playing the same damn lists filled with the same bullshit rule exploiting units. 8th ed to me seems to balance things out in the core rules enough for me to enjoy just playing the game again. I can build a fairly stable army and it will do well on the table. Almost every game I have played so far has been won or lost on my good/bad tactical decisions on the board. I felt like in 7th ed I had quite a few games that were decided by seemingly bullshit edge cases in rules or some insane power combo firing off. Finally, I am loving the armies people are creating with 8th ed. In 2 months of 8th ed I have seen more fluffy (but decent) armies from a wide range of factions than I have in the last 12 months of 30k. 30k to me is slowly going down the horrible 7th ed endgame route which leads to everyone taking basically the same lists and trying to shoehorn their "fluff" in. I will still play 30k because there are some great games to be had but I am enjoying 8th far more right now.
I'd be keen to see the side by side comparisons of the Chaos Lords. Personally I think the main problem with Kharn and Typhus is their posing. They might be a little cartoonish and exaggerated in certain areas, but it's their posing that really kills it for me. I like the new Ahriman mini (40k not 30k), and the Lucius mini isn't bad for its age.
I'm preferring 8th ed just cause you have the relative options of keeping things rules light and the games a bit quicker. Guessing you could do that in 7th ed but feels like that was a bit harder to pull off without losing to much of the feel game. Not much to lose now that most of that's been stripped off anyway (thinking of you, good old vehicle rules) Not really a huge comp environment my area and no way in hell could I afford some of those competitive armies. Might as well load that other Vid Macca, always good to hear how others are feeling about a direction a hobby is going and you do it more down to earth than anyone else on the shitfest that is 40k youtube :D
6th using 7th's rules for jinking (in that you'd get penaltied to only fire snapshots) would have been the best. and maybe psychic phase if you want to play around with the warp charge pool.
Definitely up for a video comparing models to their earlier versions. A lot of the time I look at a new model and wish they'd just remade the old one with more up to date scale and a better pose and not changed any of the details. I pretty much agree with this postmortum. No edition of 40k has been even close to perfect but 7th was a step in the wrong direction with the way formations were being used by GW and 8th has not really addressed that fully while taking away a lot in the process. All they needed to do imo was straighten out how some rules interact and add points costs to formations like their first iteration had. Nothing wrong with extra rules to represent how certain units work together provided they pay for them. On the psychic phase in 7th, all I can say is that they got rid of a magic system in fantasy that looked very similar on the basis that it was unwieldy and overly complex. So why bring it into a game that needs that even less.
7th edition was the edition I eventually started playing 40k, but I really hated it. I played Necrons, and once our codex was out, it felt like the only way to play the army was through the Decurion detachment, and anything else (such as the armies Iiked to field) was just doomed to fail (which it did). 8th has been so much better for me, because it has allowed me to actually play 40k, and get use out of all these models that I've been spending so much time, effort and money on. So 8th, even if it does appear to be getting as bloated as 7th was with all the myriad rules spread across campaign books etc, is still the better edition of the game for me.
I'd love to see your video comparison, hell I pretty much come here for that kind of stuff. You give credit where credit is due but you're not afraid to criticize either.
One word money. That's the bottom line for GW and they are still doing it now. All the formations and detachments were designed to sell units thats usually didn't sell or a unit GW wanted you to buy shit tonnes of. 8th edition is playable, after the monumental struggle of trying just to hold my own with a 7th ed chaos space marine army vs the cancer of formations its great...but also has a lot of holes still. When traitor legions came out it gave some possibilities but only lasting 6 months I wasn't able to save up for, buy, build then paint the tax units they threw in with it. 8th is only good because its not as bat shit crazy as 7th was, its definitely not 2 years of working/testing that GW claimed it was. Personally I think 7th ed worked fine for a rules set, it was the massive balance issues the codex's and supplements created ...if you removed the formation bullshit or had a game with a friend where you both made well balanced lists.
I think that whole 'Traitor Legions' release, knowing they were going to drop 8th ed, was one of the most scumbag moves this company has ever done, and that's saying something.
7th had only a few things wrong with it: money push over rules (aka rules to sell models damn everything else) and it ignored the base rules and made special rules for everyone, because when everyone is special, no one is. The fix to 7th is bone head simple, take the 30K rules, import them, strip the op codexes (everyone knows the points needed to be changed, Like Tough 10 Wraitknight), one additional rules change: No cover save may be made greater than 3+, no invulnerable save may be made greater than 3+, FNP may not be improved beyond 4+. All "special rules" are limited to what is in the base "The Rules", if its not compatible there, convert it to one that is. No more everyone is special. There ya go. Done. Enjoy a game with a lot more depth than Arcade 8th, the game where your best models are placed on the table just to be removed before you can even move. 7th had the first turn for initial maneuver and limited shooting so that everyone can feel like they have a chance. In 8th, if you don't have first turn.. hahahaha, sucks to be you. Esp because everyone and the slow necrons too can cross the entire board in like 1 turn and be in your face humping your leg. The only reason I play any 8th is because the locals enjoy the arcade, and its good for a PUG on game night at the LGS, but its like eating cafeteria pizza. It may fill your stomach but the flavor reminds you of cardboard and you are left unsatisfied. When I can convince them to play my converted 7th rules, everyone has a lot better time and says so but people are slavish to the need for someone "official" to provide rules. Also, a lot of the issue with 7th, and 8th are from the PLAYERS. There was a day when people didn't intentionally abuse the rules to death, where the beardy cheese players would be driven from the clubs. People had a lot more fun in 2nd, 3rd and 4th. It wasnt that the rules didn't have problems it was that less people cheesed the fuck out everything to the 9th degree and abused every rule possible. There is something to be said about the change in player attitude and the bend every rule to the edge of it breaking.
I spoke about them back in the day on the Galaxy In Flames blog when I used to write there. Lists like 6 castellax with darkfire cannons and a whole bunch of Thallax in 1000 point games... the other guy has 30 marines and 1 tank to fight it with. Oh the humanity!
totally agree. been watching loads of battle reps on pooptube, so many shitty wank matches with a handful of powerful units (tends to be boring to watch). I love the games where the focus is on infantry and a few balanced vehicles.
I blame FLG for the mess of 8th GW saw 7th was unpopular at the end and beacuse FLG runs all the most popular US events and their biggest market they could fix all the problems with 7th
show the video Macca or I will feed Cat dog Biscuits, the two major problem with 6th ed over 7th was the psychic phase and formations if they fucked off formations and used psychic powers how they did in previous editions 7th ed would of been a much better game. Oh and on the subject of beardy stuff in older editions remember lash of submission slanesh sorcerers and 3 vindactors
I want you to upload that video, i have mentioned this before on other channels, but the new Typhus model looks like it belongs on the cover of Saturday Night Fever Heck even Ego Queen Alexis thought so ua-cam.com/video/I4hT4TECrhk/v-deo.html Also the model looks busy as all hell. If they truly wanted to redo the model take a look at the original artwork wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/9/98/Typhus_by_alex_boyd.jpg This looks great Typhus is menacing. So yes i think the current design of Chaos lacks the grim dark aspect of it. I mean look at this wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/5/5a/Daemon_Prince.jpg That´s a demon prince from the 3rd Edition cover of black legion. It looks menacing like something you REALLY didn´t want to go anywhere near. And it looked simplistic in a way. To me it almost seems like there has gone George Lucas Star Wars Prequels into Games Workshop. Ohh look we have all these new toys, we can do shit we never even dreamed off back in the old days. And never once did they stop to actually stop and ask well do we need to and is this design practical in a gaming environment?? I have heard a few people complain about the Saint Celestine model breaking either the scrolls holding her up is breaking or the doves is breaking off. Now alot of us have probably seen some golden demon winners with on miniature holding another one up by one hand or the fingertip. Well most of those miniature has been hollowed out and pins have been used to carry the actual load between the miniatures. Well with pure plastic all there is carry that load is plastic and plastic is a lot more brittle, than metal. So naturally it will break with enough pressure. Pressure it will most certainly face, when used in regular gaming.
I made the Saturday Night Fever comparison as well! lol Many of the points touched on are ones I covered, such as the chains on Kharn's arm. Anyway, you'll see the nitpicking.
I played RT & 2nd. tried 4,5&6 found them all uninspiring and avoided 3rd due to booze & girls, 7th due to clearly being shite. The game has been a clunky mess from the beginning so rose tinted spectacles don't factor into my judgement. 8th looks like it's less burdened by ridiculous rules bloat, but then that is creeping into AoS after 2 years, so will build up for 8th 40k over time again. If you want right rules GW isn't the company for you. If you want a fantastic setting & background there is nothing which touches GWs built up 'lore' of the 30/40k setting. If you don't like waacers don't play against them. But what I've found is power creep (and I mean in players not just GWs books) is something people do regardless of the game or setting.
Ok guys, I'll post up the comparison video. It's pretty salty and typical of the episodes that don't leave the cutting room floor after production (we record a lot more than we upload, and when you think of the low quality of what we DO upload, you can only imagine what we don't put up!). Anyway, I'll put it up in the next 12 hours or so I think, but keep in mind, it's super nitpicky and generally mediocre AF.
The Outer Circle so you're really trying hard to become a gw rules writer then?
the problem with 7th was the op detachments and broken psychic powers apart from that it was a very good game
Recently lost a buddy & 30 year wargaming friend. We used to paint and listen to videos (yours & bring & battle mainly) Still listening and remembering better times. Thanks for leaving these up.
Firstly, would love to hear the video on the model comparisons, I've got my fingers crossed for you giving Typhon the once over.
As someone who played 40K and Heresy in sixth and and exclusively Heresy in 7th here are my two pence. I have no experience based opinion on 7th 40K as I avoided it like the bubonic plague because it was ruined from the outset. Sixth worked really well for HH and okay for 40K with some exceptions.
Monstrous creature rules were very poorly thought through and did not reconcile well with the vehicle damage systems at all, many players just looked at is as nonsense; this affected the heresy badly because the automata were MCs and were dominant until the revised lists came out, and even then the robots remained very powerful units. 8th dealt with this very well with this big problem by re-adopting the universal damage system of 1st Edition Rogue Trader.
D-weapon rules were complete bollocks in 7th and whoever designed them should be taken out and shot.
6th and 7th had a lot of clunky mechanics that constantly broke the rhythm of the game up with random stuff thrown at players like run move tests, dangerous terrain tests, deep strike tests, blast weapon scatter, vehicle damage table results, sweeping advance tests*, reserve rolls, fear tests, outflanking rolls and so on and on. These had two serious impacts on the game, first was the slowing down of game play and the second was to put players in the situation that they constantly got given the middle finger by lady luck because of all the random tests that could screw their battle plan. True, war is random but 40K already has a huge variability of outcomes engineered into the hit roll, damage and save systems and didn't need layers of extra uncertainty splodged on top.... it might give players a fighting chance in tournaments but it got tiresome in day to day gaming.
*Sweeping advance rules were complete garbage because of the hack job committed when lifting them out of WHFB. Whichever muppet was responsible for this forgot that all important balancing mechanic of the rank bonus that made it highly unlikely heavily outnumbered units could overrun and wipe out numerically superior opponents. This made the lives of the already challenged Heresy World Eaters just that little bit more crap.
Haywire became absurdly powerful as GW and FW wrote more and more units in with weapons of this type. Forge World were and remain one of the worst offenders here with the deliciously effective but broken Vultarax.
That said, I had loads of fun playing Horus Heresy in sixth and seventh. It worked particularly well for Legion vs. Legion combat and that ranks as some of the finest 40K I've ever played. Which brings us to the real issue at work here: it's not the rulesets that were generally the problem with any edition of 40K, it was the poorly balanced armies with highly divergent troop types that caused 90% of the problems.
Thanks for the video :)
You don't know what you're asking for hahaha
Everything has a flow on effect, you're right. Abusable rules plus highly abusable armies is 7th in a nutshell. When it was played as intended, it was great, but 'as intended' only seemed to apply to Heresy, especially when you look at the competitive meta.
I'd love to see the video chaos comparison video. Another fantastic discussion here, and one that hopefully people will watch and realise that you are attempting to look at each edition objectively.
I feel like I'm slowly waking from an awesome dream, slowly realising I'm in a dystopian reality. 40k is my ultimate nostalgia kick, I started in 2nd and had little love for any of the later editions.
What I want to know is how did they convince us we were getting our game back, and that the rules would take us back to the good old days? It moves faster, sure because the game's been $igmarised.
The thing is, I wasn't the only one who fell for it. GW made record sales and ran out of stock because there was so much good will and support from the old guard; how did we all get it so wrong?
Formations were what broke 7th. Power hungry players loved 7th ed more than any other.
One of the bigger problems with 7th was that you needed 3-5 books to build a competitive army. I was hoping 8E would fix that but it made it worse! You need 4 books just to play Chaos DG; Index, CSM, DG and FW Index. Why? because GW chose not to include some options without models in the CSM or DG books. Same problem with SM, you need all 3 books to field them because they didn't include any units without models. Then GK comes out and has units not available and WD puts out an article on how to convert one. Why the fuck didn't they do that for SM units? You can take the White Scars dude but he can't ride a bike... THE CHAPTER WHOSE WHOLE GIMMICK IS BIKES CANT USE ONE ON THEIR SPECIAL CHARACTER!!
heyull yeah brother GW needs to get their shit together
It's the release schedule that's responsible for the flaws with 8th more than anything. they are rushing and pushing and pushing to get content out the window for 8th edition, not fully proof-reading it, not fully play-testing it. If they weren't in such a rush, maybe they could do a better job, but having played since 2nd ed, it doesn't seem to matter how much time you give GW, they still can really drop the ball. Let's hope they get it together.
Meanwhile they allow a Grandmaster in Dreadknight and create a how to convert article in a Whitedwarf....they could have sold more WD if they added Marines and Chaos marines characters on bikes in the codexes paired with an article of how to build them.
Given that in the index a Wolflord can ride a bearwolf just like the rest of the SW cavalry. Figure out what the pointcost would be and use it! They'll come back to it, some common sense crept into their scribinghalls.
You don't need(!) the index if you have a codex. And FW was always excluded from the regular GW stuff, mom and dad have returned in nogging matronomy yet.
As for the grand Deathguard split from tge rest is beyond me, besides every chaosgod would have a codex with his prized pet-legion. Here's looking at Malal with Nightlords (because i haven't given up on loyal-rebelious-traitor Alpa Legion yet).
I still play 7th. Me and my friends try to make our lists relatively balanced. We use some formations on occasion and we have relatively balanced but incredibly fun games. I explained the rules for 8th to my friend I play against most and he said 8th sounds retarded (I agree 8th is retarded but I tried to sell the positive aspects of 8th and it wasn't enough to make up for the negative changes lol)
I would like to see the chaos character comparison video
I'm curious about your comparison of the models
For me 40k was all about little men in their metal bawkses. I like to get as many minis on the table as possible, put them in vehicles to reduce time spent in the movement phase.
Could you upload that chaos video pleeeease?
The reason GW didn't make a 25% and 2000 points restriction on Lords of War in 7th is because they wanted to push Imperial Knights as their own faction, and not as an optional extra for other armies. They wanted to encourage people to go out and buy their overpriced baby Titan kits, and having them restricted to 25% of a list and only over 2000 points would prevent people from playing a pure Knight army.
There are pure knight armies in 30k, but they are terrible at objective play and each time you kill a knight it rewards you additional VP's as the 'price of failure'. Again, a few little caveats and Lords of War can be made to work.
I don't agree with your views on 8th ed but I like these "historical" GW vids. I would love to see this exact same video for even earlier editions if possible. I only got to play a handful of 4th, 5th and 6th ed games so it would be fun to hear what your thoughts and experiences were shifting between those editions.
On your question about 7th ed foul taste being wiped out, I found that to be exactly the case for me. I still play 30k but it has become quite a drag in my local meta playing the same damn lists filled with the same bullshit rule exploiting units. 8th ed to me seems to balance things out in the core rules enough for me to enjoy just playing the game again. I can build a fairly stable army and it will do well on the table. Almost every game I have played so far has been won or lost on my good/bad tactical decisions on the board. I felt like in 7th ed I had quite a few games that were decided by seemingly bullshit edge cases in rules or some insane power combo firing off. Finally, I am loving the armies people are creating with 8th ed. In 2 months of 8th ed I have seen more fluffy (but decent) armies from a wide range of factions than I have in the last 12 months of 30k. 30k to me is slowly going down the horrible 7th ed endgame route which leads to everyone taking basically the same lists and trying to shoehorn their "fluff" in. I will still play 30k because there are some great games to be had but I am enjoying 8th far more right now.
I'd be keen to see the side by side comparisons of the Chaos Lords. Personally I think the main problem with Kharn and Typhus is their posing. They might be a little cartoonish and exaggerated in certain areas, but it's their posing that really kills it for me. I like the new Ahriman mini (40k not 30k), and the Lucius mini isn't bad for its age.
I'm preferring 8th ed just cause you have the relative options of keeping things rules light and the games a bit quicker. Guessing you could do that in 7th ed but feels like that was a bit harder to pull off without losing to much of the feel game. Not much to lose now that most of that's been stripped off anyway (thinking of you, good old vehicle rules)
Not really a huge comp environment my area and no way in hell could I afford some of those competitive armies.
Might as well load that other Vid Macca, always good to hear how others are feeling about a direction a hobby is going and you do it more down to earth than anyone else on the shitfest that is 40k youtube :D
6th using 7th's rules for jinking (in that you'd get penaltied to only fire snapshots) would have been the best. and maybe psychic phase if you want to play around with the warp charge pool.
Well 7 is my favorite number, but my hardy boys came in 8th... I am very conflicted.
How can something be "slightly overhauled"
Definitely up for a video comparing models to their earlier versions. A lot of the time I look at a new model and wish they'd just remade the old one with more up to date scale and a better pose and not changed any of the details.
I pretty much agree with this postmortum. No edition of 40k has been even close to perfect but 7th was a step in the wrong direction with the way formations were being used by GW and 8th has not really addressed that fully while taking away a lot in the process. All they needed to do imo was straighten out how some rules interact and add points costs to formations like their first iteration had. Nothing wrong with extra rules to represent how certain units work together provided they pay for them.
On the psychic phase in 7th, all I can say is that they got rid of a magic system in fantasy that looked very similar on the basis that it was unwieldy and overly complex. So why bring it into a game that needs that even less.
At my former local GW store, there was nothing but Tau as far as the eye can fucking see.
Put the model video up.
7th edition was the edition I eventually started playing 40k, but I really hated it. I played Necrons, and once our codex was out, it felt like the only way to play the army was through the Decurion detachment, and anything else (such as the armies Iiked to field) was just doomed to fail (which it did). 8th has been so much better for me, because it has allowed me to actually play 40k, and get use out of all these models that I've been spending so much time, effort and money on. So 8th, even if it does appear to be getting as bloated as 7th was with all the myriad rules spread across campaign books etc, is still the better edition of the game for me.
I'd love to see your video comparison, hell I pretty much come here for that kind of stuff. You give credit where credit is due but you're not afraid to criticize either.
The video you mentioned comparing new to old models sound interesting, Even if it is salty LOL
One word money. That's the bottom line for GW and they are still doing it now. All the formations and detachments were designed to sell units thats usually didn't sell or a unit GW wanted you to buy shit tonnes of.
8th edition is playable, after the monumental struggle of trying just to hold my own with a 7th ed chaos space marine army vs the cancer of formations its great...but also has a lot of holes still. When traitor legions came out it gave some possibilities but only lasting 6 months I wasn't able to save up for, buy, build then paint the tax units they threw in with it. 8th is only good because its not as bat shit crazy as 7th was, its definitely not 2 years of working/testing that GW claimed it was.
Personally I think 7th ed worked fine for a rules set, it was the massive balance issues the codex's and supplements created ...if you removed the formation bullshit or had a game with a friend where you both made well balanced lists.
I think that whole 'Traitor Legions' release, knowing they were going to drop 8th ed, was one of the most scumbag moves this company has ever done, and that's saying something.
I hate being stuck in 8th only group. They're good guys I just don't enjoy it as much.
7th had only a few things wrong with it: money push over rules (aka rules to sell models damn everything else) and it ignored the base rules and made special rules for everyone, because when everyone is special, no one is.
The fix to 7th is bone head simple, take the 30K rules, import them, strip the op codexes (everyone knows the points needed to be changed, Like Tough 10 Wraitknight), one additional rules change: No cover save may be made greater than 3+, no invulnerable save may be made greater than 3+, FNP may not be improved beyond 4+. All "special rules" are limited to what is in the base "The Rules", if its not compatible there, convert it to one that is. No more everyone is special. There ya go. Done.
Enjoy a game with a lot more depth than Arcade 8th, the game where your best models are placed on the table just to be removed before you can even move. 7th had the first turn for initial maneuver and limited shooting so that everyone can feel like they have a chance.
In 8th, if you don't have first turn.. hahahaha, sucks to be you. Esp because everyone and the slow necrons too can cross the entire board in like 1 turn and be in your face humping your leg.
The only reason I play any 8th is because the locals enjoy the arcade, and its good for a PUG on game night at the LGS, but its like eating cafeteria pizza. It may fill your stomach but the flavor reminds you of cardboard and you are left unsatisfied. When I can convince them to play my converted 7th rules, everyone has a lot better time and says so but people are slavish to the need for someone "official" to provide rules.
Also, a lot of the issue with 7th, and 8th are from the PLAYERS. There was a day when people didn't intentionally abuse the rules to death, where the beardy cheese players would be driven from the clubs. People had a lot more fun in 2nd, 3rd and 4th. It wasnt that the rules didn't have problems it was that less people cheesed the fuck out everything to the 9th degree and abused every rule possible. There is something to be said about the change in player attitude and the bend every rule to the edge of it breaking.
I'd like to hear those cheesy 30k lists in a video
I spoke about them back in the day on the Galaxy In Flames blog when I used to write there. Lists like 6 castellax with darkfire cannons and a whole bunch of Thallax in 1000 point games... the other guy has 30 marines and 1 tank to fight it with. Oh the humanity!
I like your rants, release the video
totally agree. been watching loads of battle reps on pooptube, so many shitty wank matches with a handful of powerful units (tends to be boring to watch). I love the games where the focus is on infantry and a few balanced vehicles.
If I ever feel like 8th is getting a bit stale, I will con some people to start up 30K and make a transition towards that. Lolol.
I took about 30 fire warriors but then again I was probably the worst player in 7th
I blame FLG for the mess of 8th GW saw 7th was unpopular at the end and beacuse FLG runs all the most popular US events and their biggest market they could fix all the problems with 7th
show the video Macca or I will feed Cat dog Biscuits, the two major problem with 6th ed over 7th was the psychic phase and formations if they fucked off formations and used psychic powers how they did in previous editions 7th ed would of been a much better game. Oh and on the subject of beardy stuff in older editions remember lash of submission slanesh sorcerers and 3 vindactors
Mmmmm, beard.
Cat is back in Hospital, so dunno when we'll get to torture him again.
Show us the.video! Pass the salt!, good video by the.way, interesting points
I want you to upload that video, i have mentioned this before on other channels, but the new Typhus model looks like it belongs on the cover of Saturday Night Fever
Heck even Ego Queen Alexis thought so
ua-cam.com/video/I4hT4TECrhk/v-deo.html
Also the model looks busy as all hell.
If they truly wanted to redo the model take a look at the original artwork
wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/9/98/Typhus_by_alex_boyd.jpg
This looks great Typhus is menacing.
So yes i think the current design of Chaos lacks the grim dark aspect of it.
I mean look at this
wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/5/5a/Daemon_Prince.jpg
That´s a demon prince from the 3rd Edition cover of black legion.
It looks menacing like something you REALLY didn´t want to go anywhere near.
And it looked simplistic in a way.
To me it almost seems like there has gone George Lucas Star Wars Prequels into Games Workshop.
Ohh look we have all these new toys, we can do shit we never even dreamed off back in the old days.
And never once did they stop to actually stop and ask well do we need to and is this design practical in a gaming environment??
I have heard a few people complain about the Saint Celestine model breaking either the scrolls holding her up is breaking or the doves is breaking off.
Now alot of us have probably seen some golden demon winners with on miniature holding another one up by one hand or the fingertip.
Well most of those miniature has been hollowed out and pins have been used to carry the actual load between the miniatures.
Well with pure plastic all there is carry that load is plastic and plastic is a lot more brittle, than metal.
So naturally it will break with enough pressure.
Pressure it will most certainly face, when used in regular gaming.
I made the Saturday Night Fever comparison as well! lol
Many of the points touched on are ones I covered, such as the chains on Kharn's arm. Anyway, you'll see the nitpicking.
I played RT & 2nd. tried 4,5&6 found them all uninspiring and avoided 3rd due to booze & girls, 7th due to clearly being shite.
The game has been a clunky mess from the beginning so rose tinted spectacles don't factor into my judgement.
8th looks like it's less burdened by ridiculous rules bloat, but then that is creeping into AoS after 2 years, so will build up for 8th 40k over time again.
If you want right rules GW isn't the company for you. If you want a fantastic setting & background there is nothing which touches GWs built up 'lore' of the 30/40k setting.
If you don't like waacers don't play against them. But what I've found is power creep (and I mean in players not just GWs books) is something people do regardless of the game or setting.