Are Back Squats REALLY Useful?! | Dan John
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- Опубліковано 3 лют 2023
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Dan John has spent his life with one foot in the world of lifting and throwing, and the other foot in academia. An All-American discus thrower, Dan has also competed at the highest levels of Olympic lifting, Highland Games and the Weight Pentathlon, an event in which he holds the American record.
Dan spends his work life blending weekly strength training workshops and lectures with full-time writing, and is also an online religious studies instructor for Columbia College of Missouri. As a Fulbright Scholar, he toured the Middle East exploring the foundations of religious education systems. Dan is also a Senior Lecturer for St Mary’s University, Twickenham, London.
His books, on weightlifting, include Intervention, Never Let Go, Mass Made Simple and Easy Strength, written with Pavel Tsatsouline as well as From Dad, To Grad. He and Josh Hillis co-authored “Fat Loss Happens on Monday.”
Dan is one of the original practitioners of the "Kettlebell Swing" in the US and is widely renowned to be the inventor of the "Kettlebell Goblet Squat". He is the host of the weekly Dan John Podcast; discussing all things strength, kettlebells, Olympic weightlifting and athletic performance as well as doing live workshops, coaching and online personal training.
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Still amazed how this legend man is still so humble about his experience & knowledge
180lbs back squatting is what took me out. Goblets from now on. I am getting to the point where as a 50 year old female, it isn’t beneficial to be completely knocked out of lower body lifts for months because of one move. Thanks for the info.
💯% FACTS - totally agree - I started a back squat program hoping to dunk a basketball (I’m 6’3 by the way) in my younger years and it actually lowered my vertical jump and slowed me down! Fast exercises combined with plyometrics + sprints + bounding allowed me to go from not being able to touch the rim to dunking the basketball within 12 months.
Specificity is key. Squat can be good for your jump in the sense that you build the mass you can then use to THEN build the power on.
You don’t need mass for power. Power is strength x speed. Respectively.
What "fast exercises" did you do?
A fantastic coach you are Sir Dan John.
I have dropped back squats as my performances have dropped. Front squat, split squat and goblet squats.
Keep it up. It helped me, too.
Split squats are so slept on in many cases. Especially for "normal ppl" it's such a bang for the buck... strength through a large ROM, loaded mobility (one hip in extension), balance... doing reps of 8+ per leg adds up to a good cardiovascular workout per set as well.
I've been doing "6 point rocking" for years - now I have something to call them!
I went down the high rep back squat rabbit hole over 20 years ago. I don't regret it. Two other lunatics and I went on a crazy program.consisting of 20 rep or more set of back squats with some hang cleans or bench press as an accessory. I got up to 325 for 21 well below parallel. I was 25 and eating (and drinking) like crazy .It gave me muscle I still have despite at times due to circumstances taking a year off of training.
20 rep squat sets with 3-4 plates is where legs are made. Noone can dispute this until they've done it. It never stops sucking either.
Appreciate that perspective Dan!
As someone just trying to stay strong and in good shape, but not an athlete, the way the back squat was 'presented' to me was that it's the best exercise for building overall muscle mass.
Personally I find the most joy in rotating between squats like front, back, zercher, etc.
Zerchers are so good for fighters.
Firas Zahabi said he noticed little to no difference in the power of an athletes leg kicks going from 1-2x bodyweight in the back squat. He was George st Pierre’s head coach for most of his career.
could you share link to the video, really interesting
@@valeriybaibossynov2690 I’m sorry I can’t recall which one bud.
I recall he also said skipping was junk training
@@valeriybaibossynov2690might be in his jre interview
Well kicking, is a dynamic movement. Squatting heayv doesnt make you a good kicker. its also a technique and how explosive u are.
Dan, you are pissing off Mr. Ripetto😁😁😁
Joke aside, I agree what you said. Back squats are more important for powerlifters just as front squat and overhead squat are important for weightlifters.
Low bar squat is so much hip dominant that I consider it in hip hinge category just like deadlift variations as it works the same muscle and posterior chain although differently.
You are also right about bench press that its carryover in sports is not much. I believe that variations of overhead press and deadlift are more valuable for on-field performance and real life carryover.
I lift at a Starting Strength gym.
I agree with you about the low bar back squat. In fact the coaches at my gym won’t program the deadlift more than once per week (and sometimes only in set every two weeks) once lifters reached late novice stage because they dont want to overtrain the clients’ lower back.
@@robcubed9557 I believe that deadlift should be trained just like other lifts. Otherwise other lifts should be done for 1set of 5 also if it is enough for deadlift.
Principle of specificity says that to get better at a lift it should be practiced often enough. You don't get good at violin by practicing guitar although both look similar just as low bar squat and deadlift do.
So if they use low frequency for deadlift to avoid fatigue then better replace it with close variations like RDL, SLDL, etc. instead of relying on low bar squat to drive the deadlift.
This is one of my concern with SS.
@@farhanhussain_ I can tell you from experience that there’s enough carryover from the low bar squat to the deadlift that I do a heavy pull once every 2 weeks (rack pull vs halting deadlift) and I’ve been adding 5lb each time. I’ve been doing this progression for the past 3 months.
I do low bar back squats, weighted chin-ups, and barbell rows in between.
Mind you, Starting strength is geared toward novices and early intermediates as it’s name implies (STARTING strength).
Anyone who wants to maximize any of their lifts will move on to advanced programming which is beyond the scope of starting strength
@@robcubed9557 yes low bar squat can of course drive deadlift as they both train same muscles, but my concern is that deadlift gets far too less practice opportunity compared to all other lifts. But anyway, this is how the program is, and it works for many people.
Good to know that you are making progress. Stay committed👍👍👍
@@farhanhussain_ thanks.
You make a good point about the deadlift, however I’ve seen a few UA-cam channels about how the deadlift can be indirectly progressed by training squats, rows, weighted chin-ups, and Olympic lifts.
Of course if someone is competing in deadlifts, then they must do deadlifts and it’s variations regularly.
But if someone simply wants general strength, then deadlifts don’t need to be trained on a weekly basis beyond the novice stage since it can be overly taxing.
I’d say like all things there’s probably diminishing returns in terms of fatigue and power output after a certain weight/rep scheme. And the funky thing will be it will be different for each athlete depending on their body mechanics too. Love squatting but these are all good points you bring up.
Dan, increasing my back squat has really helped my powerlifting.
Well, that makes sense to me
All exercises are tools, and almost all tools have a purpose. The question is never “is this tool hood or bad?” - it is, “how do I use this tool?”
Spot on
hey john, ive been following for a little while now (on and off) for about 3 years, but never tried your program. Finally thinking about hopping on now that I have a home gym! I'm excited.
I tried to search for this question on your channel but couldnt find it. I was wondering, how important is "intent" on your easy strength program? For the past year, I've been doing velocity based training.... autoregulating based on velocity, no velocity zones. I've learned that the weight on the bar isnt so much important as the intent behind each rep.
Working in your sets of easy 5s and KB swings, how important is pushing as hard as you can, with maximum intent? Would I likely see better results? Or would you say this is something I should avoid? Thanks
If you need to be massive, or be a pro power lifter, hard to beat low bar... Nothing puts mass on like it. But if your goal is general strength, fitness and physical preparedness, you have to weigh risk/reward. Not to mention if you lift at home without spotters. My program rotates some kind of squat all three days: 2kb rack squats, goblet squats and front squats, with fairly heavy Bulgarian Split squats thrown in too. It's more than enough for leg development, and much less risky.
And if you think you NEED it to be huge and powerful, ask yourself how often you see squats at the Arnold or World's Strongest Man.
dunno how powerlifters put on 500-600 lb on their neck/back like that, kinda insane. A lot of them huge backs.
I’m big on the back squat - my record is 405 for 20. It’s been instrumental for my strength and size. I’ve always been a ‘natural squatter’
However, when I was doing MMA (and when I’m not in a strength/size phase) I always prefer the Zercher squat. I find it really gets the same ‘feel’ that you get when you dig in and pry the opponent off their feet before a dump. For me, the Zercher squat, the bear hug sandbag carry, and the over head press have had the best carry over into the sports I’ve done (wrestling, Muay Thai, MMA)
Dan you have hit on key idea: transference. More strength doesn’t equate to better performance without coordination
It's something we really talked about when I was first throwing...then came the "more is better!"
For athletes there is diminishing returns on the back squat. There is study showing that a 2x bw squat is the upper limits of what you would get from carryover to sport from the back squat. Diversify your training after that.
Comment for the Algo! Don’t forget to 👍, 🔁, ✅ and hit the 🛎️
I only do front squats (goblet squat and slight variants). Way more of a full body exercise that way and just seems better for my back as far as I can tell.
I remember about 30 years ago telling my dad when I was done playing football, that I was so pleased to never have to squat again. And I really didn’t even though I kept weight lifting and did everything except back squats. Then at 46 I picked them back up and really enjoyed them. And still do. The squats only problem is that it gets put on a pedestal as being the king of all lifts. It’s another lift and if it’s put on that pedestal it’s no big deal.
I do think squats are the king of lifts. But lowbar is not. Highbar and front squats are much better for mass and performance IMO. Heck, hack squats, kb squats, even smith machine squats have value. Some form of squat should be the forefront for pretty much every person. I hate them too but they keep my legs big and strong. Deadlift is a lift I would replace with anything but deadlift.
I started feeling uncomfortable doing back squats about 3 years ago, gradually have reduced how often I do them..rarely now in fact. I prefer and feel good doing heavy goblet squats, they feel good and when the form goes the lift is done, goblet squats can't be cheated, in my opinion. Plus many people who can back squat heavy can't easily goblet squat heavy.
Haha, I love doing backsquats. While I really enjoy doing my kettlebell workouts, nothing compares to doing really heavy back squats or deadlifts. I only have to do 2 weeks of my old school training plan (Day1: S, B, rows, Day2: D, P, chin-ups) and my jeans won’t fit anymore 😂 I agree with being really careful about spinal health though.
Enter the zercher squat
It’s so underrated
I think the problem with back squats is spinal compression which can lead to degenerative disc and other back problems when done over the course of years. I don't see spinal compression as much of an issue with double kettlebell front squats or leg presses. Dan would you agree with this?
It's no secret.
There is something wrong with my reply button today...sorry.
Dan what do you think about doing double kettlebell front squats using a 4--4 cadence with a 3 second pause at the bottom below parallel and using a partial range of motion where you only come up 2/3 of the way? I've done these using 12 and 16 kilo bells and they feel brutal but great! I'm thinking about moving up to 20 kilo bells or 22s using this cadence. Do you think it's possible to get the same strength gains with this method than just doing regular speed / full range of motion front squats with heavier bells? I also notice when I've used larger bells such as double 32s they seem to come further from the chest and sort of put more focus on the quads and knees more so than the glutes or more spread out to both muscle groups equally. Sometimes I can lean back more and counter this to where it hits everything equally. Is this just inevitable with larger bells or is there a way to counter it using heavier bells to hit the glutes more?
Ideally I'd prefer to invest in a good commercial leg press machine such as a cyber squat press for my home gym as most of the home units don't seem have a good feel but the main problems with that is money and space and being able to maneuver the unit through doors or around corners but I think a leg press is definitely a good investment for any fitness enthusiast that plans on working out for the rest of their life because that particular movement is crucial and being able to save your back from wear and tear is definitely important. Imo a pull up bar, pair of dipping bars and a leg press is all anyone needs to get great results.
I'm no expert but deadlifts and front squats made me play sports better. When I started getting strong in back squats, my running speed uphill and sports performance suffered.
To much muscle in the neck, makes u slower hahah. or aching pain in the back of the neck area
I wonder how much of this is to do with the front squat being a better indication of athleticism that'll the back squat is to do with how quad dominant it is. Even high bar seems to carry over to sprinting, etc. more than low bar
While I agree for athletes I can tell you that, working a hard physical job at 44, low bar squat is like an Insurance of overall strength.
I find that I get more core engagement with front/overhead squats. Back squats make you feel good. Overhead squats make you look good.
Nice turn of a phrase here, thank you.
Moral theology in the weight room 😂 St. Alphonsus or B. Haring? I squat many times a day, with no weight, feels great back, knees, hammys, feet n ankles!
Thanks for sharing!!
As you say, a great strength movement but has its limits in athletics
Big difference between squatting and the ......"movement of squatting " !!!
I think the back squat has value in taking genetically non gifted people from weak to decently strong if done regularly. After that basic strength is gained maybe one should look to other exercises. The cost benefit analysis doesn't hold up when you're strong. Unless you're a powerlifter of course.
I think I have written/said that since about 1991. Thanks for sharing.
Did you say you can learn from anyone because most people are bad examples? That's hilarious. It's how I teach most things I know : watch me do this and then don't do it this way.
The bench press may not carry over into sports but the bench press takes nearly 0 training economy / recovery.
Definitely useful for getting bigger & stronger.
But then again the bench press is also the exercise that Kelly Starrett quipped in his book as being responsible for more shoulder injuries than any other.
There are good alternatives to the bench. For example, try push ups with a resistance band wrapped around your back, try them in a complex too with KB swings, goblets squats. Even the light bands will be difficult at first. Iirc, there was even a study showing similar strength gains from those and bench.
Dan John the Marxist! No to religion in the weight room! Workers!
Low bar squat is a hinge not a squat.