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Silicon batteries might be where the industry is headed but that doesn't solve the lithium ion battery issues with EV. Look up what the legacy automakers are saying, many like Toyota, Honda, Ford and GM are pulling away. The CEO of Honda Toshihiro Mibe said they are ending development of an affordable EV. What it comes down to is the business model. They'd need to profit from the entire vehicle manufacturing process and that wont happen with the EV business model.
At least the research is still being done for a better battery but electrical current will not always be available to us because of the Sun or nuclear war which will take down the grid.
I would like to see an annual or bi-annual video going over the progress (or lack thereof) of some of the "breakthroughs" covered over the past years. I really enjoy these videos and consider myself a tech-optimist, but I'm also very skeptical of breakthrough technologies. I find that they often have very lofty promises that they almost always fail to realize.
I'm the same. There was a new tech from a company called Reminova to grow back enamel in your teeth instead of fillings, that just disappeared, the website has gone as well. Got the investors money and went to the Caribbean 😉
re: "I really enjoy these videos and consider myself a tech-optimist..." yup and unfortunately that's how the problem starts, per the Scientific Method "optimism" has no place in scientific discovery (all this was figured out back in the 17th Century and earlier). ref: "The greatest DERANGEMENT of the mind is when a person makes something SO because one wishes it to BE so..." - Louis Pasteur (1822-1895)
This would definitely increase the value of this content. You always see the new and exciting stuff that may have a future, but you never hear about how it panned out and why. Failure (and success) is how we learn, even if it's other people's failure.
Amprius was also used by the top 4 teams of the bridgestone world solar chalnge this year. Reportedly the teams that used amprius achieved at least 20% more energy capacity for a given mass of batteries compared to other battery types.
It’ll probably never see the light of day. If you understand tech you’ll know that this company is basically just doing research and will end up getting bought out an integrated into another company. Patents will be sold, etc. This is just a steppingstone, and only one of many other battery technology is being explored currently. It’ll be 10 years before this trickles down to any consumer.
@charlestoast4051 If they both have the same energy to weight ratio 20% better means 20% less weight and that's definitely better for the hypothetical electric plane. But based on the video it is 50% lighter so that's even better.
My biggest question is always what the durability/ longevity is like. If it can have a substantial increase in total life cycles, then I will be a lot more interested to see it breakout into the mainstream
Looks like it has a lot of potential for sure. But as you mentioned, time will tell. One thing I didn't hear was the expected cycle life, which would be a huge factor for the total cost of the battery. Thank you again for another great video.
@@eddualmeida5790 Always difficult to tell because I know damned well that the current car companies are blatantly lying about their EV battery cycle life. GM is claiming that the bolt batteries have "usable 3500 cycle life", no way in hell. Unless they mean by the 3500th cycle you are at 20% of the original capacity. Tesla lies too, saying their batteries will last 1 million miles. Maybe 1 out of every 100,000 might.
If EV's can only take between 500 and 1200 fill-ups before needing a $20,000 servicing, it's never going to take off.
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Another big sector you may have forgotten to mention is complexe rehabilitation. There are a LOT of battery operated devices in the medical space. PWCs, patient lifts, tracked ceiling lifts, CPAP machines, the list goes on. Having a battery thats super energy dense and charges fast (but also just as important, doesnt degrade abnormally fast) would be a godsend to people with disabilities in PWCs and MWCs w/ power assist! Depending terrain and other conditions, a Permobil and Quantum can avg 4-9miles on a single charge before it has to be down for 3-4hrs to get back to 100% If batteries like this allow a person to achieve double, if not triple, the range and only take about 2hrs to fully charge (or faster) that would be life changing for people with PWCs!
I agree. There is a huge market for such improvements on many other things than cars or trucks. Electric bicycles would have pretty impressive ranges. The new hunting fat tire bikes already have a range of 30+ miles and could pull some pretty serious hills and loads with that kind of density.
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@@WayneTheSeine that'd be wicked having a city shredder that's as lite as a traditional pedal bike but with a range of that allows near 60+! Not to mention phones. We'll be back in the Nokia/Motorola days in terms of battery life if this battery tech comes to be and into the smartphones (fingers crossed!) Basically, every niche of daily life can and will benefit from this improvement.
@ It would be awesome silently riding to your deer stand or pulling a small trailer with tent and camping gear and ice chest. You could camp in some really awesome, no one else around, kind of places. Wireless security cameras already can operate up to a year on AA batteries. They could operate for 3 years or more on one charge with these batteries. Pretty awesome technology, let's hope it comes to fruition.
You can make silicon nanowire cheaper: atomic layer deposition instead of "growing it directionally". You deposit lattices which are folded In a scrungy knotstructure. This would also allow swelling to occur without damage since the structures simply seek to "un-knot their not-knot" such that no stretching occurs. Bends would naturally reform through discharge cycles because of electron movement so the dendrite forms useful reformation of any weakness in bends
what are the actual costs for that style of additive manufacturing at nanoscale? And can it create them in the dense, matted form factor they need? I'm assuming they already have some proprietary techniques so the margin may be closer than you think.
Got a source for durability numbers? Tradeoffs? If I were a younger/smarter/healthier/wealthier engineer, I would definitely look into this. Maybe next lifetime. ha!
Or even omit it entirely, simply make lithium silicide add a little aluminum bind and sintered to the anode collector plate or mesh. Since it is already in the high volume state the migration of the lithium would not effect the anode much due to the porosity. It would preform somewhere between a lithium ion and lithium metal battery.❤
@@AZOffRoadster It's not this easy trust me, you need minimum 10million in capital to afford the machinery to even assemble cells using volatile solvents for the electrolyte. I was playing with silicon anodes and sulfur cathodes over 8 years ago. There is a reason none of this is commercially viable yet.
@@LupusMechanicus " you need minimum 10 million in capital to afford the machinery". Ten million becomes a "Drop in the Ocean" when you look at Military spending. How much does it cost to develop and put into service, a "Fighter Jet"? Making electricity storage a priority would go a long way to help the next generation hate us less. After all, isn't that why we have governments? Other than for "Killing Our Enemies"*
Many of you have never heard of Moses Lake Washington. There is a very large company, REC Silicon (Norway), that has been helping to support a growing population here. For many years there were serious problems with exports from here to China and so REC was in shutdown mode, but that has ended. In just the past 2 years a lot of companies have started to build here. It is in Grant County, WA and the electricity is cheaper than dirt thanks to the Grand Coulee dam as well as a half a dozen other dams on the Columbia River. The locals can't build things fast enough to accommodate the growth.
As a materials scientist and engineer I can only admire the challenges during the design and manufacturing these batteries, even the prototypes. One of my college studies Si anodes and batteries in general are very hard to consolidate. So congrats if these Si anode batteries ever gets commercialised.
I'm still rooting for graphene aluminum batteries but these are pretty cool too. The more battery types we can get on the market the better, I'm sure they'll all have use cases that they excel in
Me too. I’m hoping they find good uses for Hydrogen. The final solution will be matching what the benefits of a given tech to the application it fits. Batteries are great for local deliveries, but a different tech might work better for cross country runs. I thought the advantages of graphine would have brought it farther than it’s gotten.
Monro Live did a tour of their factory a few months ago, and he seemed impressed with what they were doing. It seems like tech is solid, but as always, it means nothing if you can’t scale to mass production. Prototypes are easy, production is hard.
prototypes aren't easy, i'm in the same building as their actual research machine (it's not in their main building). they've been working on it for years
That's why it's good that they make the batteries with all off-the-shelf manufacturing equipment. Centrotherm has been mass producing photovoltaic cells and other silicon deposition products for a long time. The manufacturing process is already proven, but they will face a steep initial capex cost to buy a ton of Centrotherms for their Colorado gigafactory.
@@kiddy1992 Stop attacking strawmen, he is saying that mass production is harder than building a prototype of a product Its far easier than implementing mass production Prototypes you are designing ONE MACHINE For Industrial mass production you are designing 10-20 New machines, these machines are also far larger and more expensive with much tighter tolerances, and these machines need to run at least 8 hours a day and will need to work for 30+ years minimum
When you said, "This is great not just for drone hobbyists", I really expected the military to follow not some search&rescue or research. Neither search&rescue nor research have free money to pay for 50% more range but military absolutely does! All eyes in European and US militaries are on how Russia and Ukraine are using electric-powered drones on the battlefield, with Russia leading in the larger loitering munitions (kamikaze drones) like Lantset and Ukraine leading in smaller FPV-drones and quadcopter bombers
Price is an issue though with attrition wars like the one in Ukraine. So even a military likely would favor cheaper shorter range drones for the bulk of the fleet and only use the increased range or lighter smaller drones with this battery tech for the use cases that truly makes them cost effective. I think one thing I have realized with the Ukraine war is that our military might be very capable but its way too expensive to keep fighting a real war for the years needed to defeat a peer adversary. If we don't mass produce cheaper munitions that are effective enough for their roles and reserve our fancy high tech stuff for the edge cases when you get super good bang for buck we will lose the next war.
How did you not mention that these guys supplied batteries to AeroVironment for a recent round of switchblade production? That seems like a pretty good sign for this one being real, at least in high power applications.
And they are going into Teledyne FLIR's Black Hornet recon nanodrones. And, in addition to Airbus/AALT HAPS's Zephyr mentioned here, they are also going into BAE Systems/Prismatic's PHASA-35 HAPS. They also have POs from a a small plane company Infinitus Aero, are submitting test cells to the US Army Conformal Wearable Battery program, and delivered batteries to 38 customers last quarter.
Switchblade drones are unusual in that their batteries only need to be good for one charge-discharge cycle, so battery swelling with repeated charges wouldn't be an issue. I also imagine that high energy density and rapid charge time could both increase the capabilities of the drones.
@@allanmason3201Yeah, but military applications need to be highly reliable. There's no way they'd be in the Switchblade drones if there were issues like this.
As far as I understand, Amprius, SilaNano and OneD use silane gas as input material to make the silicon anodes. Silane is refined silicon in gas form. Today, China produces almost all silane for industrial applications. In America there's more or less one producer who has the capability to produce silane in mass quantities, a company called REC Silicon in Moses Lake, WA. If this tech pans out, the scale-up will be dependent on REC Silicon expansion.
Matt reports on new tech as soon as info is available when they are still early in development so they are around the corner. But many of the battery techs he's talked about in earlier videos are now available. LFP batteries are now mainstream and are becoming the predominant ev battery type. Sodium ion batteries have been on the market since 2021 and in China you can buy evs with them. Flow batteries are also available to buy though mostly at scales too large for consumer use. Hybrid flow batteries are available at small enough scale for consumer use for home solar storage.
What makes me so sceptical is that ive seen videos exactly like this for years now. Its always "we're super close to a huge breakthrough" and then nothing happens.
Well, the difference is that these guys are really serious about it, with it being from Stanford, partnering with Dutch "nano-tech for large production company", being checked by Mobile Power Solutions. The tech is there and it looks really promising. It just needs time and development... or otherwise hopefully Europe will grant it veeeery huge grants / loans, in order to be able to compete with China on battery solutions.
@@millanferende6723Every other battery startup has also been a spin-off of a university research lab, with business partnerships. Amprius seems a bit further along.
The range issue is not an anxiety. It's a reality. Feel free to use a BEV in North Dakota like I did and make it work for 4 years, even on road trips at below -20 to Montana, when the range is cut in half or worse. Didn't get stranded due to running out of juice, but came close a few times.
Your range anxiety is self-imposed. Maybe driving an EV in ND four years ago, without charging infrastructure, in the winter was not a good idea. Would it be the same today? I drive my EV in rural MN, and to SD, regularly. And as of this year, I have charging options all along the way. Four new ones in just the past 8 months with more on the way. No anxiety for me, even at below 0. If I want to go deep into northern MN in the winter, it's a different story. I would not drive an EV in that case. I plan ahead so as to not experience range anxiety.
Anxiety has nothing to do with it. These are cold hard facts. We had enough charging infrastructure 4 years ago to support 120 mile range. At -25' Farenheit, 335 mile range becomes about 140, especially if driving into a headwind, so that's cutting it pretty close. I drove a 2020 Model X with 295 mile range from MN to Fargo at -20 F into a 20mph wind in 2020. Range reduced by about 60%. Stopped and charged to 100% in Alexandria. That's 108 miles along 94 to Fargo. Even with heat cut and at 60 mph, rolled into the Fargo supercharger with 3% charge left (about 4 miles at that temp). EV's need more range and faster charging to have the same utility as ice vehicles. They're not a good choice if you have to keep an ICE as backup. LI-OH batteries suck in the cold, charge slow, and don't last if supercharged often. Just ask anyone who used a Model 3 for Uber.
@@hammerfist8763 I can only imagine the lack of mileage performance here in the deep Gulf south. A/C is a must most of the year. Anyone with experience? Doing a quick bit of research shows an average of 25% reduction in mileag but does not graph it for ambient temperature. As temps climb over 90 degrees mileage drops significantly. At 100 degrees there is a 31% reduction in mileage with A/C on.
@@WayneTheSeine AC + hot climate did not seem to impact mileage nearly that much for me. Heat tends to increase Li-OH battery efficiency. Cold, especially at -20' severely impacts it (50%+ decrease). I've put 60,000 miles on my Model S-50,000 of those in North Dakota and another 10k since moving back to central Texas. 30% seems like a huge hit for something minor like powering a 3 hp AC motor vs the 600 hp electric motors propelling the 4800 pound vehicle + driver.
@@hammerfist8763 The 30% hit is due to the battery not the motor. There is a point of diminishing return with heat and Lithium batteries. All of the "minimal" research I did cited the same stat.
I missed any data on charge/discharge efficiency (eg: 100% in and 80% out). It would also be a game changer for them to be able to grow the fibers on the plates, similar to mold growing in a petri dish. Thanks Matt.
Increased energy density is nice but not the most important issue preventing greater take-up of BEVs. The first is cost. At the moment a BEV with an expired battery is effectively worthless. The cost of replacing the battery is greater than the value of the second hand vehicle. 'Should help bring down battery cost' is jam tomorrow.
Any idea on how the silicon and nano rods either help or compound problems with thermal runaway issues? I can see how replacing graphite with silicone removes a potential carbon fuel source but are they any more stable and able to withstand or reduce dendrite formation or other issues. Also curious about what gasses are released during thermal runaway as opposed to traditional LI technology.
If this is the same tech as CATL's CM batteries, then thermal runaway would appear to be a thing of the past. CATL's claim is that the CM battery meets aviation standard stability
Dear m barefoot, You raise a very good question. I will speak as a retired EE and an amateur chemist, mainly for July 4th. Both carbon as charcoal or Carbon powder as in gun powder are quite combustible given Oxygen in sufficient concentration. As you know, completely burning Carbon gives co2. Burning Si gives SiO2, the main ingredient in sand. So point is both are flammable. In any Redox based li ion cell, the amount of Li stored in the anode with cell charged determines the chemical reactivity. Conventional graphite,a form of Carbon, stores only 1 Li atom for 6 Carbon atoms. Si holds far more, therefore more energy in a smaller space. To make use of more Li, the cathode must become a larger store of Oxygen, for when the Li moves to the cathode where it "steals" Oxygen from the metal oxides mix there. Li is a Lot Hungrier for Oxygen than nickel or manganese or Cobalt is. When a + lithium ion arrives at the cathode, it gets oxidized and leaves a positive charge there. Having just left the anode, a negative charge gets make there and current can flow,.and motors will spin. Back to safety. More stored Li needs more stored Oxides or other oxidizing stuff to Balance the Reaction. So simply put in 4th of July terms, the more Gunpowder the bigger the BOOM. NEWER LI BATTERIES SEEK TO PACK MORE FUEL (LITHIUM, SILICON, possibly plastic separator, possibly organic carbonate electrolyte INTO THE SAME PACKAGE AND ADD MORE OXYGEN TO BALANCE THE REACTION. So again HIGHER ENERGY BATTERIES ARE A BIGGER FIRECRACKER/FIREBOMB. sorry if this hurts your EV visions.
I just love the fact battery tech is improving by leaps and bounds, with $billions going into research and development. It's not surprising that some of these technologies are already starting to go into mass production. It's already a multi-trillion dollar market, and a lot of companies are going after it. Even a small piece of it is a huge amount of money, and the critics of electric vehicles will be silenced year after year. Fun to see, and this is the channel to watch.
What about the fact the most of our energy comes from fossil fuels? Also the grid can't handle everyone switching to electric vehicles. I seen to remember a factory that wanted to switch all of their trucks to electric, I think it was ten in total. The city laughed at them because the grid couldn't support it. The factory had to install it's own massive generator, that generator used fossil fuels. I think a hybrid system is better. There is a trucking company from Canada that has built it's own hybrid truck. Edison is the name. I think batteries have their place. But being able to charge them without stopping is a major plus. How long does it take to fill up your tank of gas? Not long. How long does it take to charge the batteries? A lot longer. Sure that time is going to be reduced in the future if the grid can support it.
@@sylarrogueII the point is suppose to reduce carbon emissions, not everyone switching to EV, maybe that's why they haven't force everyone to EV yet A lot of our energy sources come from fossil fuels but not all of them so it somewhat reduce carbon footprint Even though it's just changing from one type of polluting to another, any temporary solution works fine enough until we know how to solve those pollution issues, i would see that as a win
Battery tech is almost the same today as it was 40 years ago. Companies are investing billions into lithium ion battery facilities for a reason. We aren't going to be doing anything much different for the foreseeable future.
@@edwardcoulter9361yes. And even when travelling, you have to stop for a break sometime. I normally stop at the 300 km distance particularly if travelling with family. It just takes some planning and the tools are there for that already.
The major problem in the past was the longevity of Amprius batteries. Amprius now claims 90% capacity retention after 1200 cycles in its eVTOL flight protocol testing for its 370 Wh/kg packs, but we don't know what was the depth of discharge in those tests. Previously Amprius said between 200 and 1200 discharge cycles, so maybe Amprius has dramatically improved the degradation of the battery since then or maybe it was testing in an optimal range between 30% and 70% depth of discharge to get the least battery degradation. Without more public data, we really don't know. The silicon nanowires are grown in three stages with CVD, and Centrotherm's plasma-enhanced chemical vapor deposition (PECVD) equipment is used, which has to be expensive compared to graphite anodes. I doubt that this tech will ever get cheap enough to compete with standard batteries used in EVs, so it is probably just for high-end supercars.
Since aircraft are required to have "reserve fuel" I would almost bet money that they are using a shallow discharge for the typical eVTOL flight profile. Not sure how often aircraft dip into "reserve fuel".
Agreed. 3 stage processes means increased possibilities of "impurities" getting into the layers. Plus going into MASS production means another increased difficulties to maintain Quality and Quantity. Panasonic did researched into Solid state batteries. Mass production with consistency in Quality and Quantity was the main Issue. Ultimately COST must be competitive with market conditions.
Yeah, that's always thr issue. These companies always 'claim' some revolutionary breakthrough but when they have to show their work Oops suddenly silence.
@@Dac85 " These companies always 'claim' some revolutionary breakthrough " Maybe that is why they do it. To entice investors to think they are going to make a lot of money when in reality all some of these companies are doing is extending their paychecks for years. Example, Theranos scam.
@@billhill839 Scam or no, they need to entice investors either way. "We have some technology that may be really good if we develop it further, but it might ultimately be a dead end" isn't the most exciting pitch, even if it's true for most of these.
The Amprius battery is currently too expensive for consumer electronics or cars which is why they are targeting the aerospace market. Also, they are not in production and it's not clear when they will be in mass production. Enovix is currently ramping their new factory for their silicon anode batteries which will be in production in 2024, and they have hinted that they have deals in place with major phone OEMs (rumored to be Apple and Samsung). So Enovix will probably beat Amprius to market by at least 1 or 2 years and at a lower cost. Enovix also has a unique battery structure that prevents fires, which means that they might be used in cars once the production volume gets high enough, probably around 2026. I think Enovix will win this race.
Every time you say "wearables," for a split second my brain hears *"werewolves."* ...that's not a complaint, for the record. I mean, it was mildly disappointing the first few times. But now I'm used to it and it just amuses me. ^_^
Many many moons ago I raced, SL and SLX tubing was the hottest thing and then out came graphite and titanium..... Aero helmets and wheels to save an ounce. Take a piss😂instead. I've lost track over the decades... I have yet to see an e-bike in a road race or a Criterium😅
@@terrific804 I don't have to race other people to enjoy riding a lightweight bike. I ride long distances and saving each kilogram can mean I could ride a few more kilometers in the same timeframe. My ebike doesn't have a throttle to go 50 km/h. It barely supports me with 60 watts and I have to do the climbs myself.
@@SonnyDarvish ❤ I love-loved the relative freedom of a bike. And the boy Scouts..only WHAT you NEED..🙈 riding out from home 40 or 50 miles and laying down under a tree and enjoing the freedom of being alive, turning around for another 50 and not dependent on anyone except my own wits and what I carried on my back or bag.❤
This appears to have more merit than some previous tech explained on this channel...if massive giga factories are been built to right now....for deployment of this tech in a year or 2...and this type of battery helped sustain a flight for 25 days....it seems to work...enough at least for companies to mass produce...
I appreciate your clear closed captioning. I know it's more effort, but yours are so much easier to follow that YT's auto-generated ones. +1 Please learn what the phrase, "begs the question" means, and when to use, "raises the question". -1
Technology Connections is another great channel with good closed captioning. I'm not positive but I think Smarter Everyday might also do manual captions.
Today’s battery development is very similar to computer design of the ‘80’s and ‘90’s where we saw a lot of different designs and ideas and now, they’re pretty much standard on a single design and capabilities of what works the best. Hope Amprius succeeds, at least in pushing battery chemistry and design further along.
Apple just switched laptop/desktop from CISC to RISC design. Many a software is switching from DT to NN. There are audio only UI hardware offerings. Neuralink may be a thing one day. I don't think the standardized on a single design assertion is correct.
@@TimLF Nothing ever becomes standardized on a single design - innovation is always a thing. But we know what he meant... All that crazy zoo of gadgets and trial and error of the 80s and 90s has sort of settled into an equilibrium today - and we're happy with our devices and their universality.
Why can't you build/grow a lattice and coat that with silicone? the current nanowire bottlenecks should be worked on, but it seems that is a showstopper unless someone thinks a breakthrough is imminent
Definitely worth continuing research and development. So many "wait-and-see" ideas for energy and energy storage right now. We need to mature these techs to see some that actually pan out.
The sila battery in the whoop was a fantastic upgrade. The battery is great. It is fascinating that scale is the entire challenge now and automotive drives the whole industry.
I worked in the research group where the CTO got his PhD in, back then they etched Silicon carbide to make carbide derived carbon, and Sila is essentially using the same process. That lab invented a new family of nanomaterials called MXenes which are carbide 2D materials made from bulk carbides making one of the best materials for RF applications but idk if there is much commercial applications due to corrosion of 2D titanium carbide
re: "It is fascinating that scale is the entire challenge now and automotive drives the whole industry." no, you only "think" automotive drives the industry by virtue of NOT knowing what NASA and the US Military (Navy in particular) have been up to for the last 50 years. see Wiki entry for the psychology of "Confirmation Bias".
@@cybyrd9615 I vaguely recall reading about MXenes years ago, iirc they thought it might be useful for computing applications (a lot of research has gone into alternative semi-conductors as we're really pushing the limits of silicon in that sector and ironically just starting to use silicon in the battery sector).
@@grn1 so for compute we are researching 2D materials with spintronic electron microscopes and they wanna make topological quantum computers with them. But MXenes are made like chemicals not grown, they don’t have the defect control necessary for what physicists want
Can you give a full table overview of battery chemistries, density and cost-efficiency. NiHydrogen: 140wh/kg and expensive (€/wh) NMC: 260wh/kg en medium price LFP: 90wh/kg en cheapest (€/wh)
Batteries have come so far in the past 15 years. I cannot wait to see where we've come 15 years down the line. :) We'll look back and think, how crazy it was that we waited a whole 30 minutes to charge our phones every single day from dead to full. The best thing about batteries, is that they can easily be swapped out. The cheaper, long-lasting, and smaller they get, the better!
re: "Batteries have come so far in the past 15 years". nope, as i'm fond of reminding those who don't know History, the battery was invented in 1800 by Volta, then later Li-Ion Chemistry was formulated in 1980 by "Johnny Be Good" (and others). right the Wall Calendar says it's now 2023, so that's the passing of 223 and 43 years respectively (and as Matt alludes) we're still using fundamentally the SAME Li-Ion tech that we always have. no, what you've seen the past 15 years is batteries grow EXPONENTIALLY BIGGER (and heavier) in the range of 90 kWh to 900 kWh (and Voltages increase) and then you've promptly CONFLATED that to mean "gains" have been made. welcome to the Myth of Progress. #MYTHOFPROGRESS
There has been next to no advancements in batteries made 30 years ago & batteries made today. The only difference is we're making much larger batteries. The reason being, we're already pretty close to what's thermodynamically & safely possible. All this vaperware comes out every few months, then disappears, never to be heard from again.
Yup, there's a reason old school construction guys prefer corded tools, the batteries for cordless tools used to suck. Sure the tech and materials existed but it wasn't being produced for the tools we were buying.
But that is Chinese, so better not tell about it. Otherwise we will have to admit Chinese technological superiority. Also BeiDou doesn't exist too, if nobody knows about it, nobody will have to admit it's better then GPS.
there will be a space for silicon batteries. other anode materials that have similar properties include having metals such as niobium and titanium. again, price, price, price is what it is all about. So not necessarily a direct replacement where Nb is >$20/kg and Titanate is $12 to $18/kg while graphite is $2/kg
If energy density is so much better, it also opens up the path to much lighter vehicles, same or better range with a smaller, lighter battery - it also means we could re-think the skateboard design for smaller cars and even see more micro cars on the market for crowded roads such as Japan or Europe.
Elon Musk has said that if there is a major improvement in battery density, it won’t lead to much more range, because 400 miles is really enough for almost any purpose. Instead, more density would result in lighter, less expensive vehicles.
@@davestagner To a point. Yes, you can reduce the amount of batteries as the main path, but there will be a point of min you still have to hit to still run the required min discharge rate. I dont know those numbers sadly, but there would still be a x amount of battery. Aka, more range would still be added. Also, most only do around 300 - 400 would still be an improvement. 400, 800, and 1k will be the target ranges for a while. Even if Tesla doesnt do it - others would still. Also, less weight = more range either way you look at it, so there will be just gains from just reducing the battery that they might not even care to carry over (aka, market it just better range for less the cost and weight).
@@adr2t I can see your point, but I’m not sure I agree. Range anxiety is about anxiety, not about functionality. I can’t drive 400 miles without stopping for food or other biological needs. Most people can’t. And as chargers become more readily available (and charging cycles get faster), it will be as convenient as gasoline. And that will happen by the end of the decade. If the choice for manufacturers is “Do 1000 miles on a charge to impress the manly men, or sell it for $4000 less in this competitive market”, I guarantee they’ll choose the latter. And I don’t see why there’d be a technical need for more capacity to achieve the same discharge rate.
@@davestagner Eh, 400 miles is a lot of cars, but its not all cars. Then there are variables that drops 400 down to 300. Keep in mind we're still in the 300 miles - not the 400. Thus we are still more like 200 atm (heating, weather, traffic, highway, etc). 400, 800, and 1k will be the ranges a lot of people will want because they dont have to worry about the range anxiety because they know they will be able to get to the charging station is time/gives them time. No matter the issues above not just range alone it self. Also, I already pointed that prices will drop, but ranges will still be a target they will want to still also hit. So yes, you are partly right they will focus on droping the amount of cells per pack, but still will try to get more range out of it too for maketing like they currently already do.
A question: at 6:58 Amprius shows a comparison with a lithium-ion battery for mobile phones which says "3.7 V 6Ah --> 2.4Wh" Is there something wrong? Shouldn't it be 3.7 multiplied by 6 = 20.1Wh? Edit: 22.2 Wh but still, not 2.4Wh, which is not a typo, being on a official adv from the company
To avoid legal problems we removed all identifying features. If you think the markings are bad try looking at the contacts, they appear to be black plastic .
@@richyfoster7694 Hi. It's nice to see an "official" answer, thanks. P.S. What about the revenue in Q4? Should I keep the stock? Buy more? (Just kidding... ;) )
Another big difference is that instead of half a rack of batteries or one of those Tesla wall things, you'd be able to store enough battery power to power a house for a day, in just a 2 to 3U unit. It would make adoption of battery storage for home solar/wind/etc much more realistic. In the area around me, 50% of all houses now have solar on their roof, just a handful of people suppliment it with a small vertical turbine. Not a single one of them has a battery unit. Both because it is space and cost prohibitive (granted, the cost prohibition is in part because solar got heavy subsidies, batteries didn't.)
If a battery has a 50% weight advantage compared to current tech you could also definitely get a wooping range (if you keep the same weight ratio of batteries in EV's)? Paired with 6 minute charging it'll make EV's seriously contend with fossil fuels vehicles in charge time vs refuel, and range too. Now we just need infinite cheap electricity to actually be able to transition out of fossil fuel dependency, and power-grids that can handle these increased demands. :P Anyway, cool tech, hope it will prove viable at scale.
another problem is these still require Lithium. i still think a better solution is battery swapping stations instead of charging stations, where sulfur batteries can be easily swapped in a matter of seconds and recycled from dedicated locations is a much better option. especially since they seem to promise 1000 times more energy per charge than a L.I battery and much easier to make supposedly with the abundance of sulfur element, and with one of the only down sides being their recharge cycles being a few hundred at most vs the thousands L.I can provide. but that can be eliminated with good infrastructure and battery swapping sites and proper recycling of older or non-funcional ones :) just a thought.
@@sebyst7907 still though, it still creates a much stronger stress/strain profile on the substrate anode and leads one to believe they suffer capacity degradation over less cycles. Even if the energy and power density is 50% more for the same cost (unlikely) if you only get 10% of the cycle life of iron phosphate it’s not going to be viable. Range anxiety is closely followed by 20k battery replacement after 5-10years.
Isn't lithium the massive problem with batteries though? Are they going to be able to get away from Lithium in your opinion? You've covered a lot of batteries, and I always enjoy your commentaries, but I'm just concerned about lithium as the major component and feel like one of the other techs you've covered is going to have to take over at some point.
There is research underway to make sodium-ion batteries practical. Worse energy density, so not what you want for electric vehicles. But longer life and lower cost-per-unit-capacity, so ideal for grid storage, renewable energy and UPSs.
Best use, in my opinion, is light cargo EV scooters. Taking kids to school, getting groceries all on solar panel covered bike paths. Batteries could be on subscription service, so pull into your 7-11 or Circle K quick mart and swap out for new battery at the kiosk for another 100 miles of range at 25-30mph. No not for everywhere, sorry if you live on the North Pole, but there are MANY areas this would work. Saving petrol for the important stuff, like farms so we have food in the future (unless you hate your kids, then let them struggle)
I think silicon batteries are "too good to be true". Faster charging, from a grid that is NOT being improved and decreasing power generation, is Lunacy; you can't draw blood from a turnip with a fire hose! To add 80 KWH to a 100KWH batt in 6 minutes would take an 850+ KW charger because of heat losses and slowdown near full charge. A Semi would require an 8.5 Megawatt charger!! >>>this represents an input of 5,700 amps at 1500 volts - that is insane!
When I saw the thumbnail I hoped this would be about silicon, I’ve seen lots of promising research being explored by a few channels on YT and I’m excited to see where this goes. If they can perfect this science, this would solve so many of the issues facing large scale expansion of electrification of the roads and our infrastructure. We’ll see!
Besides the two other silicon competitors you mentioned there is also Enovix. They tackle the swelling problem in a different way. Instead of the "jelly roll" method, they have their stuff lined up like pasta in a box, which keeps it from catching fire if you drill a hole in the battery. Nothing is perfect, and ENVXs tech gives it a power advantage in small batteries like phones, but it goes away as the battery gets larger. So it's like a u shaped curve for medicine, where there is a sweet spot between the minimum effective dose , the optimum amount, and the lethal amount.
I mention this every time someone claims we will see really fast ev charging. Let's assume a 20% to 80% day charge on a 100kwh battery. So that's 60kwh of energy that needs to be added to the battery. To do that in 6 minutes, 60kwh / (6/60) = 600kw charge rate on average assuming no losses. The NACS connector is rated for 250kW, so you'd need 3 of them per car, so there is an issue with simply delivering the power from the station to the car. Not too mention that if you want to charge 4, 6, 8, 10 cars at the same time you could find that the station needs a small power plant (6MW) onsite just to handle the peak loads. Basically the infrastructure required around the charging station is going to limit our ability to charge multiple vehicles at a time at these high rates even if we solve the battery side.
Given the hyped panic around depleting supplies of silicon for electronics, and the constant issues with sand in general for construction, I have to wonder how this battery tech is going to fare in the near future.
Different kind of silicon. Atomically, yeah, silicon. But the stuff used for making wafers (electronic chip substrates), and the sand used in construction are specific forms of silicon that are not as widely distributed in the Earth's crust. This use of silicon where they're building nanowires, uses raw silicon. The source isn't nearly as important, because the final form is artificial rather than a naturally occurring type that's in shorter supply.
@@darylsonnier658 Yep, constructing sand is specifically about rough vs smooth grains, which is why you can not use desert sand I think the electronics thing is that it has to be ultra high purity? Silicon is the 2nd most abundant element in the Earth's continental crust, so not like it's rare
@@HorzaPandaWater is very abundant too, heavy water not so much. If this thing uses any kind of silicon purity, great. If they don't, it will suck resources and electronics will only get more expensive.
@@HorzaPanda Yes, it's very high purity of specific types of silicon grains. If you had the patience and money to waste on it, you could start with any source of silicon and end up with what they need, but that's exceedingly expensive.
Silicon is not rare and there is nothing special about the source. Making very high purity is the issue and evidently we need more manufacturers for that.
I get one of these "new breakthrough battery" stories in my feed at least once a week. Please excuse us for being unenthusiastic until they get some market traction.....
Oh yeah, I always ask youtube to stop recommending this channel, but it still pops up at least once a couple of weeks for years. It's always the same bs about batteries that will save the world.
At this point I'll believe it when it actually comes to market in significant quantities. I'm tired of hearing about all these 'breakthroughs' for years that end up never materializing.
Nice video. I would like to see this make its way to the cordless tool world. It would definitely help free up space in service vehicles. Currently have to take up to 10 batteries with me for a day’s work.
There are a lot of Personal Electric Vehicles like EUC's, E-scooters, OneWheels, mobility scooters, E-wheelchairs, etc. that could benefit from better batteries greatly. EV proponents often forget that not all electric vehicles have to be cars and trucks.
Thats actually a "problem" of that battery. You probably would never find a charge station that could deliver that much power in such a short time. I dont know if the powercable could even handle that without overheating.
@@Daniel-rd6stIt would require a lot of power, but just because it *can* charge that fast doesn’t mean it has to. I think the existing 350-kW chargers would get you pretty close, at least a sub-15-minute charge to 80%. Heck, the Ioniq 5 can charge 10-80% in 18 minutes, and it maxes out around 230 kW.
Definitely longevity is something to be concerned about, but if the benefits of their battery are high enough and very importantly, also don’t increase the costs too much, even 2000 charge cycles might be sufficient for a lifespan. It could potentially push manufacturers to engineer vehicles, aircraft etc. in a way that permits faster and lower (labour) cost battery replacement. And while as low as 2000 cycles would be not great, at 50% additional energy density it would mean an average commuter would quite likely get 2 days of use out of it, so 4000 days which is roughly 11 years. For typical use of my family’s EV, that would actually easily be 3 days worth of travel. The economics of such a system could conceivably work but the devil is in the details for sure.
Matt I never miss your fabulous presentations and I have info. We used PHOTONS which are Dirac neutrinos (black/white particles) from pulsed lasers and shot it thru a TUNED venturi to create the BLACK Sterile Muons and BRILLIANT WHITE Electron Neutrino showers. I think we could harvest the white part as it exits the venturi so it is Raw Electrons. Would you contact me please Sir, If my design works it will provide lots of juice from a small solid state device...basically continuous free energy.
Energy density is massively important for US-style long-range driving. Keep an eye on the company. But I really wish all these research companies would start making usable products: Power tools, vehicles, etc.
@@astemet Sure, but you also loose out a lot of that power from losses too. You also have the issue of too many tools using the same limited power resource means less over all energy pool.
I think the easiest way to see that these are not a breakthrough, is that you cannot buy them and the major manufacturers are not copying or racing to the market. Good ol graphite again. As they say, graphite can do anything and everything, except make it out of the laboratory
The availability of Silicon anode battteries does not necessarily mean that this is the way to go. But it definitely moves the goalposts. If you manufacture conventional Li-NMC or Li-FePO cells, or if you want to get to market with a new cell technology or develop a new cell chemistry until it can go to market, Silicon anode batteries are something you have to compare to and to be better at least in some aspects to convince potential buyers.
Sandy Munro had visited their factory in Fremont, and it’s just next to one building of Tesla. The professor of Stanford University Cui Yi actually came from China and founded this company, he’s same age with me. Amprius utilized some semiconductor technology like PECVD on their process, which made its battery carrying more energy. I once worked in a semiconductor and also operated, maintained the semiconductor manufacturing equipment HDP-CVD. However, silicon had some issues like you or Elon said in the past, and it need be coated with carbon or other ways to keep silicon in the anode. Otherwise, silicon along in the anode would be crumbled. But Amprius claimed some of their batteries can exceed 500Wh/kg according to what I saw few months ago… Their problem now should be on how to ramp up production more quickly.
I wonder how dirty silicon refining will be "than we previously thought" ? A quick search reveals: "...Raw quartzite is mostly silicon dioxide (SiO2), and the refining process begins with a reduction reaction to get rid of the oxygen. Crushed quartzite is mixed with carbon in the form of coke (coal that has been heated in the absence of oxygen). Woodchips are added to the charge as well; they serve both as a carbon source and a physical bulking agent that allows gasses and heat to circulate better in the furnace. The arc furnaces for silicon smelting are massive installations with huge carbon electrodes. The electrodes are consumed during smelting, so new electrodes are screwed onto the tops of the current electrodes to make sure the process isn’t interrupted. The arc furnace requires massive amounts of electricity to maintain the 2,000°C temperature needed, so silicon refineries are often located where electricity is cheap and plentiful. The reduction reactions inside the melt zone are actually pretty complicated, but can be summed up with two main reactions: SiO2 + 2 C > Si + 2 CO2 SiC + SiO2 > 3 Si + 2 CO In both reactions, the oxygen in the silicon dioxide combines with carbon to form the main waste product, carbon monoxide. A side reaction that occurs in a part of the melt zone inside the furnace produces silicon carbide (SiC), which is an unwanted byproduct (at least when the goal is to purify silicon; silicon carbide itself is a useful industrial abrasive). By making sure that silicon dioxide is far in excess in the furnace, the second reaction where the SiC acts as a carbon source for the reduction of silicon dioxide is favored, and silicon with up to 99% purity can be tapped off the bottom of the furnace." as clean as a whistle (a burning carbon whistle blown with a CO2 supply)
Big if true... This should be the disclaimer for all EV and battery news. There is a lot of vaporware around. It sounds like your legroom or ground clearance may shrink with battery state of charge. Im going to let those silicon based batteries run their course in the market a while before i plug one in in my garage.
Amprius batteries are already out in the market. They just didn't go straight to mass production for the auto industry, but they're coming. Their batteries were in the vehicles that took the top 4 places in the recent Bridgestone World Solar Challenge
Wow, battery tech news that isn't some quasi vaporware that might see the light of day in 3 decades! Can't wait to find out the charge and longevity performance of those EVs!
Partnering with GM? Sigh. There is a graveyard full of GM partnerships. Mary is grasping at straws as they go down in flames. P.S. I hear you can buy their interest in Cruise pretty cheap😂
I am a robotics engineer and have worked at an autonomous drone factory and this battery looks good for that industry. They would be happy to pay double the price to get 30% more flight time just from upgrading the battery. As for cars, they need sooo many battery cells just to make a car and the price is already high for an electric car. Perhaps for PHEV vehicles as their battery is smaller than pure EV, otherwise the cost goes up too much except for Rivian or other exotic super EV cars, perhaps those hypercars could use it.
Would love to see your take on the mine being developed in Thacker Pass, NV for Lithium extraction from Clay. Great video Matt. The less we need from China the better.
What charging method is used to only take 6 minutes to charge? There are three methods being used and the fastest method is very scarce except for Tesla's.
My understanding is that mass production methods for silicon anode batteries are also being developed directly across the street from Amprius Technologies, at Tesla's Kato Road R&D center. These batteries, and similar energy density Condensed batteries from CATL, will likely remain in limited applications, such as VTOLs and electric racecars, throughout most of 2024. I expect 2025 to be quite a different story as these silicon anode batteries are produced en masse and incorporated into Tesla vehicles such as Semi, Cybertruck, and their next generation Roadster.
Contrary to the current range acceptability being 300 miles, we will need the standard to be 600. This is because the actual range of daily charging guidelines is only 60% of the rated range and doesn’t allow for anything but perfect conditions. 600 is my number but I think it works to compete with ice cars and the higher number would relive a lot of congestion at fast charge stations. I have seen this technology before and it is good to see progress. Batteries must and will improve very soon. EVs are just better in so many ways. With more home solar and wind power available to all homeowners it just makes sense. Thanks for following the progress on battery tech.
Good video, Matt. I'm a proponent of battery powered everything. I use them in my model airplanes almost exclusively. There are issues with the reality of societal battery conversion that nobody seems to address. It's not range anxiety, battery density, cost, or charge time. I'm hoping you'll read this and use your level-headed approach to explain the math to me and your viewers about the following: One issue is the amount of current (amps) required to charge a 100kwh battery to 80% in 6 minutes. This issue has multiple levels of difficulty, including the basics like charger capacity, charger cable/connector, and the heat created at the charge rate required. Then there is the infrastructure and power generation problem. It's not all that big of a deal until you start talkin about 10s of millions of cars, busses, semis or airplanes all needing high amperage at the same time. I'm not trying to be a downer but it would be nice for someone like yourself to take a real look at the numbers and report honestly on the feasibility. I think society is not well served by saying, "We'll have 1500km range batteries with 6 or 10 minute charge times," without stating that it is not currently (pun intended) possible and won't be possible for decades. It would be great to see the actual math on how much current is needed to charge 1 million, 10 million and 100 million 100kwh battery all at the same time, at night or when people aren't driving. The number of power plants required, the time it takes to build the facilities with current regulations, and the cost to do so, would also be good information to share. We should always look to the future but the reality of today can't be ignored. And let's not even start to talk about the power usage of future crypto mining. Thanks in advance.
Hélas ! The problem remains the same: lithium. In Europe, the Gregoir and Van Acker report reveals that the needed lithium quantity to succeed in energy transition should be 20 times more than we use today… However, this is a good news to improve energy density! 👍 But for me, we need to see if this technology could be compatible with other material (sodium for example)
For EVs, I think we've already reached the point where, for most applications, making batteries cheaper is more important than making them denser. Even EV semi trucks have already been built using today's battery technology, and the primary limitation on their usage arises from the cost of the batteries, not their weight. Where improved energy density will really matter is aviation, as airplanes are much more weight-sensitive and much less cost-sensitive than cars and trucks. If we ever want even the shorter commercial airplane flights to be electrified, we need big improvements in battery energy density, with the research shown in this video a good start in that direction.
Air taxi's and personally owned flying transport drone, are super viable. This means roads can be abandoned. It would be like the Jetsons, your flying drone will only fly a pre-programmed flight, for example from home to work or a vertically tall air parking garage. Ground transport will be reserved for recreational driving and mass cargo transport, and mass transportation (bus, school, Trams, rail,) make it illegal to use road vehicles to go to work.
I have to say that a six minute recharge time for an EV would definitely push me over the line into switching over, assuming we got enough charging infrastructure in place to make travel reasonable.
you do realise that trying to dump enough current into a car sized battery to charge it in 6 minutes is going to require a cable that would need a crane to lift it.
@@b45her And that, along with myriad other potential issues, may end up being an unsolvable technical impediment. All I said was a 6 minute charge time would make an EV something reasonable to me.
I love your videos. One request: Could you make a short, “Doug deMuro” style version of each video? In other words, no intro, no background, just the essence of what you’re talking about, for the people who are familiar with the matter or who watch your videos a lot.
interesting tech! Having said that CATL's new LiFepo batteries charge to 80% in 10 minutes. Though techinically that is significantly slow than 6 minutes, most folks won't mind waiting an extra 4 minutes for a significantly cheaper battery/car
More lithium is more intense fires. It's the lithium that in combination with water and air is the thing that is so hard to put out. So if you put more lithiumin them there willl be a longer/more intense fire if a fire occurs.
While how fast a battery can accept a charge is an important factor, one als o needs to consider how fast you can deliver the power, i.e. how much current time voltage the charger can deliver. That is the limiting factor for most home chargers and even for commercial chargers. As for battery chemistries, China is currently building plants to produce sodium ion batteries. They are currently about 10% less energy dense, but that is expected to improve. There big advantage is that sodium (salt) is cheap and plentiful and that sodium ion batteries are much safer and less likely to catch on fire.
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Well, silicone is about as abundant as possible..
Pins his own ad.
I think ... that your videos should be less chaotic
Silicon batteries might be where the industry is headed but that doesn't solve the lithium ion battery issues with EV. Look up what the legacy automakers are saying, many like Toyota, Honda, Ford and GM are pulling away. The CEO of Honda Toshihiro Mibe said they are ending development of an affordable EV. What it comes down to is the business model. They'd need to profit from the entire vehicle manufacturing process and that wont happen with the EV business model.
At least the research is still being done for a better battery but electrical current will not always be available to us because of the Sun or nuclear war which will take down the grid.
I would like to see an annual or bi-annual video going over the progress (or lack thereof) of some of the "breakthroughs" covered over the past years. I really enjoy these videos and consider myself a tech-optimist, but I'm also very skeptical of breakthrough technologies. I find that they often have very lofty promises that they almost always fail to realize.
I'm the same. There was a new tech from a company called Reminova to grow back enamel in your teeth instead of fillings, that just disappeared, the website has gone as well. Got the investors money and went to the Caribbean 😉
re: "I really enjoy these videos and consider myself a tech-optimist..." yup and unfortunately that's how the problem starts, per the Scientific Method "optimism" has no place in scientific discovery (all this was figured out back in the 17th Century and earlier). ref: "The greatest DERANGEMENT of the mind is when a person makes something SO because one wishes it to BE so..." - Louis Pasteur (1822-1895)
re: "I find that they often have very lofty promises that they almost always fail to realize."
That’s a great recap of this entire channel.
This would definitely increase the value of this content. You always see the new and exciting stuff that may have a future, but you never hear about how it panned out and why. Failure (and success) is how we learn, even if it's other people's failure.
Amprius was also used by the top 4 teams of the bridgestone world solar chalnge this year. Reportedly the teams that used amprius achieved at least 20% more energy capacity for a given mass of batteries compared to other battery types.
wow, cool seemingly tribal info at 1st :)!
Finally cause, I have stock in them.
@@psylinx Finally is right, I hope I live to see a break even on that investment.
I hope so.@@MikeGentry
We sure did! It was even more than a 20% increase! More in the 40% range :)
This one actually seems viable, but any progress is good. 20 or 30% improvement can make a huge difference in the viability of a product.
+20% capacity is meaningless if it's associated with a similar reduction in cycles - so any results from the World Solar Challenge can be ignored.
I have a device that needs batteries with +10,000X higher capacity than current technology.
It’ll probably never see the light of day. If you understand tech you’ll know that this company is basically just doing research and will end up getting bought out an integrated into another company. Patents will be sold, etc.
This is just a steppingstone, and only one of many other battery technology is being explored currently. It’ll be 10 years before this trickles down to any consumer.
@charlestoast4051 If they both have the same energy to weight ratio 20% better means 20% less weight and that's definitely better for the hypothetical electric plane. But based on the video it is 50% lighter so that's even better.
@@Science-Vlogallow the energy that we are to power it
My biggest question is always what the durability/ longevity is like. If it can have a substantial increase in total life cycles, then I will be a lot more interested to see it breakout into the mainstream
Yeah he forgot to go over that.... looking at their website their 450Wh/kg battery only is rated for 200 cycles......
Looks like it has a lot of potential for sure. But as you mentioned, time will tell. One thing I didn't hear was the expected cycle life, which would be a huge factor for the total cost of the battery. Thank you again for another great video.
Yes,that is what crossed my mind as well.
Current info I can find is between 200-1200 cycles, depending on use.
@@rdizzy1 Close to 1200, not bad. Close to 200, forget about it....
@@eddualmeida5790 Always difficult to tell because I know damned well that the current car companies are blatantly lying about their EV battery cycle life. GM is claiming that the bolt batteries have "usable 3500 cycle life", no way in hell. Unless they mean by the 3500th cycle you are at 20% of the original capacity. Tesla lies too, saying their batteries will last 1 million miles. Maybe 1 out of every 100,000 might.
If EV's can only take between 500 and 1200 fill-ups before needing a $20,000 servicing, it's never going to take off.
Another big sector you may have forgotten to mention is complexe rehabilitation.
There are a LOT of battery operated devices in the medical space. PWCs, patient lifts, tracked ceiling lifts, CPAP machines, the list goes on. Having a battery thats super energy dense and charges fast (but also just as important, doesnt degrade abnormally fast) would be a godsend to people with disabilities in PWCs and MWCs w/ power assist!
Depending terrain and other conditions, a Permobil and Quantum can avg 4-9miles on a single charge before it has to be down for 3-4hrs to get back to 100%
If batteries like this allow a person to achieve double, if not triple, the range and only take about 2hrs to fully charge (or faster) that would be life changing for people with PWCs!
I agree. There is a huge market for such improvements on many other things than cars or trucks. Electric bicycles would have pretty impressive ranges. The new hunting fat tire bikes already have a range of 30+ miles and could pull some pretty serious hills and loads with that kind of density.
@@WayneTheSeine that'd be wicked having a city shredder that's as lite as a traditional pedal bike but with a range of that allows near 60+!
Not to mention phones. We'll be back in the Nokia/Motorola days in terms of battery life if this battery tech comes to be and into the smartphones (fingers crossed!)
Basically, every niche of daily life can and will benefit from this improvement.
@ It would be awesome silently riding to your deer stand or pulling a small trailer with tent and camping gear and ice chest. You could camp in some really awesome, no one else around, kind of places. Wireless security cameras already can operate up to a year on AA batteries. They could operate for 3 years or more on one charge with these batteries. Pretty awesome technology, let's hope it comes to fruition.
You can make silicon nanowire cheaper: atomic layer deposition instead of "growing it directionally". You deposit lattices which are folded In a scrungy knotstructure. This would also allow swelling to occur without damage since the structures simply seek to "un-knot their not-knot" such that no stretching occurs. Bends would naturally reform through discharge cycles because of electron movement so the dendrite forms useful reformation of any weakness in bends
what are the actual costs for that style of additive manufacturing at nanoscale? And can it create them in the dense, matted form factor they need? I'm assuming they already have some proprietary techniques so the margin may be closer than you think.
Got a source for durability numbers? Tradeoffs? If I were a younger/smarter/healthier/wealthier engineer, I would definitely look into this. Maybe next lifetime. ha!
Or even omit it entirely, simply make lithium silicide add a little aluminum bind and sintered to the anode collector plate or mesh. Since it is already in the high volume state the migration of the lithium would not effect the anode much due to the porosity. It would preform somewhere between a lithium ion and lithium metal battery.❤
@@AZOffRoadster It's not this easy trust me, you need minimum 10million in capital to afford the machinery to even assemble cells using volatile solvents for the electrolyte. I was playing with silicon anodes and sulfur cathodes over 8 years ago. There is a reason none of this is commercially viable yet.
@@LupusMechanicus
" you need minimum 10 million in capital to afford the machinery".
Ten million becomes a "Drop in the Ocean" when you look at Military spending.
How much does it cost to develop and put into service, a "Fighter Jet"?
Making electricity storage a priority would go a long way to help the next generation hate us less.
After all, isn't that why we have governments? Other than for "Killing Our Enemies"*
Many of you have never heard of Moses Lake Washington. There is a very large company, REC Silicon (Norway), that has been helping to support a growing population here. For many years there were serious problems with exports from here to China and so REC was in shutdown mode, but that has ended. In just the past 2 years a lot of companies have started to build here. It is in Grant County, WA and the electricity is cheaper than dirt thanks to the Grand Coulee dam as well as a half a dozen other dams on the Columbia River. The locals can't build things fast enough to accommodate the growth.
As a materials scientist and engineer I can only admire the challenges during the design and manufacturing these batteries, even the prototypes. One of my college studies Si anodes and batteries in general are very hard to consolidate. So congrats if these Si anode batteries ever gets commercialised.
I'm still rooting for graphene aluminum batteries but these are pretty cool too. The more battery types we can get on the market the better, I'm sure they'll all have use cases that they excel in
Me too. I’m hoping they find good uses for Hydrogen. The final solution will be matching what the benefits of a given tech to the application it fits. Batteries are great for local deliveries, but a different tech might work better for cross country runs. I thought the advantages of graphine would have brought it farther than it’s gotten.
We need battery solutions that are long-lasting.
im rooting for every battery R&D, more the better
Monro Live did a tour of their factory a few months ago, and he seemed impressed with what they were doing. It seems like tech is solid, but as always, it means nothing if you can’t scale to mass production. Prototypes are easy, production is hard.
prototypes aren't easy, i'm in the same building as their actual research machine (it's not in their main building). they've been working on it for years
@@kiddy1992 yup, prototyping can be deceptively difficult especially if you aren't being funded by multi-billion corporations.
More accurate is prototypes are hard, mass production is hard. But I mean, unless you are doing something about it, what's the point of the comment?
That's why it's good that they make the batteries with all off-the-shelf manufacturing equipment. Centrotherm has been mass producing photovoltaic cells and other silicon deposition products for a long time. The manufacturing process is already proven, but they will face a steep initial capex cost to buy a ton of Centrotherms for their Colorado gigafactory.
@@kiddy1992
Stop attacking strawmen, he is saying that mass production is harder than building a prototype of a product
Its far easier than implementing mass production
Prototypes you are designing ONE MACHINE
For Industrial mass production you are designing 10-20 New machines, these machines are also far larger and more expensive with much tighter tolerances, and these machines need to run at least 8 hours a day and will need to work for 30+ years minimum
I'm curious about the physical durability. Like, would repeated drops or hits break the nano wires, and, if so, would those free wires cause issues.
We need silicon anodes, so you can see when your phone is full by looking at its belly
When you said, "This is great not just for drone hobbyists", I really expected the military to follow not some search&rescue or research. Neither search&rescue nor research have free money to pay for 50% more range but military absolutely does! All eyes in European and US militaries are on how Russia and Ukraine are using electric-powered drones on the battlefield, with Russia leading in the larger loitering munitions (kamikaze drones) like Lantset and Ukraine leading in smaller FPV-drones and quadcopter bombers
Price is an issue though with attrition wars like the one in Ukraine. So even a military likely would favor cheaper shorter range drones for the bulk of the fleet and only use the increased range or lighter smaller drones with this battery tech for the use cases that truly makes them cost effective. I think one thing I have realized with the Ukraine war is that our military might be very capable but its way too expensive to keep fighting a real war for the years needed to defeat a peer adversary. If we don't mass produce cheaper munitions that are effective enough for their roles and reserve our fancy high tech stuff for the edge cases when you get super good bang for buck we will lose the next war.
How did you not mention that these guys supplied batteries to AeroVironment for a recent round of switchblade production? That seems like a pretty good sign for this one being real, at least in high power applications.
And they are going into Teledyne FLIR's Black Hornet recon nanodrones. And, in addition to Airbus/AALT HAPS's Zephyr mentioned here, they are also going into BAE Systems/Prismatic's PHASA-35 HAPS. They also have POs from a a small plane company Infinitus Aero, are submitting test cells to the US Army Conformal Wearable Battery program, and delivered batteries to 38 customers last quarter.
Switchblade drones are unusual in that their batteries only need to be good for one charge-discharge cycle, so battery swelling with repeated charges wouldn't be an issue. I also imagine that high energy density and rapid charge time could both increase the capabilities of the drones.
@@allanmason3201Yeah, but military applications need to be highly reliable. There's no way they'd be in the Switchblade drones if there were issues like this.
As far as I understand, Amprius, SilaNano and OneD use silane gas as input material to make the silicon anodes. Silane is refined silicon in gas form. Today, China produces almost all silane for industrial applications. In America there's more or less one producer who has the capability to produce silane in mass quantities, a company called REC Silicon in Moses Lake, WA. If this tech pans out, the scale-up will be dependent on REC Silicon expansion.
it is frustrating that "the breakthrough" is always "just around the corner" ;) but silicon anode tech is pretty rad.
So true. Some exceptions like Apple, Amazon, Tesla, etc happen though.
Matt reports on new tech as soon as info is available when they are still early in development so they are around the corner. But many of the battery techs he's talked about in earlier videos are now available.
LFP batteries are now mainstream and are becoming the predominant ev battery type. Sodium ion batteries have been on the market since 2021 and in China you can buy evs with them. Flow batteries are also available to buy though mostly at scales too large for consumer use. Hybrid flow batteries are available at small enough scale for consumer use for home solar storage.
My brother in Christ, we went from first flight to the moon in 60 years. From dial up phones to smartphones in 20 Change takes a little time.
What makes me so sceptical is that ive seen videos exactly like this for years now. Its always "we're super close to a huge breakthrough" and then nothing happens.
Well, the difference is that these guys are really serious about it, with it being from Stanford, partnering with Dutch "nano-tech for large production company", being checked by Mobile Power Solutions. The tech is there and it looks really promising. It just needs time and development... or otherwise hopefully Europe will grant it veeeery huge grants / loans, in order to be able to compete with China on battery solutions.
@@millanferende6723Every other battery startup has also been a spin-off of a university research lab, with business partnerships. Amprius seems a bit further along.
@@millanferende6723 thats the same story they all tell, just another bunch of tech grifters emptying the pockets of investors.
exactly. it's the same old song
@@millanferende6723 And all those other attempts were not really serious.
I'll believe this when I see it - I've seen too many companies making the same claims and none of them ever materialise.
The range issue is not an anxiety. It's a reality. Feel free to use a BEV in North Dakota like I did and make it work for 4 years, even on road trips at below -20 to Montana, when the range is cut in half or worse. Didn't get stranded due to running out of juice, but came close a few times.
Your range anxiety is self-imposed. Maybe driving an EV in ND four years ago, without charging infrastructure, in the winter was not a good idea.
Would it be the same today? I drive my EV in rural MN, and to SD, regularly. And as of this year, I have charging options all along the way. Four new ones in just the past 8 months with more on the way. No anxiety for me, even at below 0. If I want to go deep into northern MN in the winter, it's a different story. I would not drive an EV in that case. I plan ahead so as to not experience range anxiety.
Anxiety has nothing to do with it. These are cold hard facts. We had enough charging infrastructure 4 years ago to support 120 mile range. At -25' Farenheit, 335 mile range becomes about 140, especially if driving into a headwind, so that's cutting it pretty close. I drove a 2020 Model X with 295 mile range from MN to Fargo at -20 F into a 20mph wind in 2020. Range reduced by about 60%. Stopped and charged to 100% in Alexandria. That's 108 miles along 94 to Fargo. Even with heat cut and at 60 mph, rolled into the Fargo supercharger with 3% charge left (about 4 miles at that temp). EV's need more range and faster charging to have the same utility as ice vehicles. They're not a good choice if you have to keep an ICE as backup. LI-OH batteries suck in the cold, charge slow, and don't last if supercharged often. Just ask anyone who used a Model 3 for Uber.
@@hammerfist8763 I can only imagine the lack of mileage performance here in the deep Gulf south. A/C is a must most of the year. Anyone with experience? Doing a quick bit of research shows an average of 25% reduction in mileag but does not graph it for ambient temperature. As temps climb over 90 degrees mileage drops significantly. At 100 degrees there is a 31% reduction in mileage with A/C on.
@@WayneTheSeine AC + hot climate did not seem to impact mileage nearly that much for me. Heat tends to increase Li-OH battery efficiency. Cold, especially at -20' severely impacts it (50%+ decrease). I've put 60,000 miles on my Model S-50,000 of those in North Dakota and another 10k since moving back to central Texas. 30% seems like a huge hit for something minor like powering a 3 hp AC motor vs the 600 hp electric motors propelling the 4800 pound vehicle + driver.
@@hammerfist8763 The 30% hit is due to the battery not the motor. There is a point of diminishing return with heat and Lithium batteries. All of the "minimal" research I did cited the same stat.
I missed any data on charge/discharge efficiency (eg: 100% in and 80% out).
It would also be a game changer for them to be able to grow the fibers on the plates, similar to mold growing in a petri dish.
Thanks Matt.
Increased energy density is nice but not the most important issue preventing greater take-up of BEVs. The first is cost. At the moment a BEV with an expired battery is effectively worthless. The cost of replacing the battery is greater than the value of the second hand vehicle. 'Should help bring down battery cost' is jam tomorrow.
Any idea on how the silicon and nano rods either help or compound problems with thermal runaway issues? I can see how replacing graphite with silicone removes a potential carbon fuel source but are they any more stable and able to withstand or reduce dendrite formation or other issues. Also curious about what gasses are released during thermal runaway as opposed to traditional LI technology.
If this is the same tech as CATL's CM batteries, then thermal runaway would appear to be a thing of the past. CATL's claim is that the CM battery meets aviation standard stability
Because skin is basically glass, and not coal like how pencil graphite or carbon soot kind of is, I imagine thermal runaway would be harder.
Dear m barefoot,
You raise a very good question.
I will speak as a retired EE and an amateur chemist, mainly for July 4th. Both carbon as charcoal or Carbon powder as in gun powder are quite combustible given Oxygen in sufficient concentration. As you know, completely burning Carbon gives co2. Burning Si gives SiO2, the main ingredient in sand. So point is both are flammable. In any Redox based li ion cell, the amount of Li stored in the anode with cell charged determines the chemical reactivity.
Conventional graphite,a form of Carbon, stores only 1 Li atom for 6 Carbon atoms.
Si holds far more, therefore more energy in a smaller space. To make use of more Li, the cathode must become a larger store of Oxygen, for when the Li moves to the cathode where it "steals" Oxygen from the metal oxides mix there. Li is a Lot Hungrier for Oxygen than nickel or manganese or Cobalt is. When a + lithium ion arrives at the cathode, it gets oxidized and leaves a positive charge there. Having just left the anode, a negative charge gets make there and current can flow,.and motors will spin.
Back to safety. More stored Li needs more stored Oxides or other oxidizing stuff to Balance the Reaction. So simply put in 4th of July terms, the more Gunpowder the bigger the BOOM.
NEWER LI BATTERIES SEEK TO PACK MORE FUEL (LITHIUM, SILICON, possibly plastic separator, possibly organic carbonate electrolyte INTO THE SAME PACKAGE AND ADD MORE OXYGEN TO BALANCE THE REACTION.
So again HIGHER ENERGY BATTERIES ARE A BIGGER FIRECRACKER/FIREBOMB.
sorry if this hurts your EV visions.
I just love the fact battery tech is improving by leaps and bounds, with $billions going into research and development. It's not surprising that some of these technologies are already starting to go into mass production. It's already a multi-trillion dollar market, and a lot of companies are going after it. Even a small piece of it is a huge amount of money, and the critics of electric vehicles will be silenced year after year. Fun to see, and this is the channel to watch.
What about the fact the most of our energy comes from fossil fuels?
Also the grid can't handle everyone switching to electric vehicles.
I seen to remember a factory that wanted to switch all of their trucks to electric, I think it was ten in total. The city laughed at them because the grid couldn't support it.
The factory had to install it's own massive generator, that generator used fossil fuels.
I think a hybrid system is better. There is a trucking company from Canada that has built it's own hybrid truck.
Edison is the name.
I think batteries have their place. But being able to charge them without stopping is a major plus.
How long does it take to fill up your tank of gas?
Not long.
How long does it take to charge the batteries?
A lot longer. Sure that time is going to be reduced in the future if the grid can support it.
@@sylarrogueII the point is suppose to reduce carbon emissions, not everyone switching to EV, maybe that's why they haven't force everyone to EV yet
A lot of our energy sources come from fossil fuels but not all of them so it somewhat reduce carbon footprint
Even though it's just changing from one type of polluting to another, any temporary solution works fine enough until we know how to solve those pollution issues, i would see that as a win
Battery tech is almost the same today as it was 40 years ago.
Companies are investing billions into lithium ion battery facilities for a reason.
We aren't going to be doing anything much different for the foreseeable future.
It takes no time to recharge my Tesla batteries. I am usually asleep. Isn’t that the case for most people?
@@edwardcoulter9361yes. And even when travelling, you have to stop for a break sometime. I normally stop at the 300 km distance particularly if travelling with family. It just takes some planning and the tools are there for that already.
The major problem in the past was the longevity of Amprius batteries. Amprius now claims 90% capacity retention after 1200 cycles in its eVTOL flight protocol testing for its 370 Wh/kg packs, but we don't know what was the depth of discharge in those tests. Previously Amprius said between 200 and 1200 discharge cycles, so maybe Amprius has dramatically improved the degradation of the battery since then or maybe it was testing in an optimal range between 30% and 70% depth of discharge to get the least battery degradation. Without more public data, we really don't know.
The silicon nanowires are grown in three stages with CVD, and Centrotherm's plasma-enhanced chemical vapor deposition (PECVD) equipment is used, which has to be expensive compared to graphite anodes. I doubt that this tech will ever get cheap enough to compete with standard batteries used in EVs, so it is probably just for high-end supercars.
Since aircraft are required to have "reserve fuel" I would almost bet money that they are using a shallow discharge for the typical eVTOL flight profile. Not sure how often aircraft dip into "reserve fuel".
Agreed. 3 stage processes means increased possibilities of "impurities" getting into the layers. Plus going into MASS production means another increased difficulties to maintain Quality and Quantity. Panasonic did researched into Solid state batteries. Mass production with consistency in Quality and Quantity was the main Issue. Ultimately COST must be competitive with market conditions.
Yeah, that's always thr issue. These companies always 'claim' some revolutionary breakthrough but when they have to show their work Oops suddenly silence.
@@Dac85 " These companies always 'claim' some revolutionary breakthrough " Maybe that is why they do it. To entice investors to think they are going to make a lot of money when in reality all some of these companies are doing is extending their paychecks for years. Example, Theranos scam.
@@billhill839 Scam or no, they need to entice investors either way. "We have some technology that may be really good if we develop it further, but it might ultimately be a dead end" isn't the most exciting pitch, even if it's true for most of these.
Any technology that can get us away from the highly toxic , dangerous inefficient lithium ion battery has got my vote.
The Amprius battery is currently too expensive for consumer electronics or cars which is why they are targeting the aerospace market. Also, they are not in production and it's not clear when they will be in mass production. Enovix is currently ramping their new factory for their silicon anode batteries which will be in production in 2024, and they have hinted that they have deals in place with major phone OEMs (rumored to be Apple and Samsung). So Enovix will probably beat Amprius to market by at least 1 or 2 years and at a lower cost. Enovix also has a unique battery structure that prevents fires, which means that they might be used in cars once the production volume gets high enough, probably around 2026. I think Enovix will win this race.
Every time you say "wearables," for a split second my brain hears *"werewolves."*
...that's not a complaint, for the record. I mean, it was mildly disappointing the first few times. But now I'm used to it and it just amuses me. ^_^
As an ebike rider (road and gravel), weight is very important to me. Looking forward to more watts per kg of batteries :)
Many many moons ago I raced, SL and SLX tubing was the hottest thing and then out came graphite and titanium..... Aero helmets and wheels to save an ounce. Take a piss😂instead. I've lost track over the decades... I have yet to see an e-bike in a road race or a Criterium😅
E-bikes are power efficient enough. More energy efficiency would be good though.
@@terrific804 I don't have to race other people to enjoy riding a lightweight bike. I ride long distances and saving each kilogram can mean I could ride a few more kilometers in the same timeframe. My ebike doesn't have a throttle to go 50 km/h. It barely supports me with 60 watts and I have to do the climbs myself.
@@SonnyDarvish ❤ I love-loved the relative freedom of a bike. And the boy Scouts..only WHAT you NEED..🙈 riding out from home 40 or 50 miles and laying down under a tree and enjoing the freedom of being alive, turning around for another 50 and not dependent on anyone except my own wits and what I carried on my back or bag.❤
@@SonnyDarvish racing was just FUN
This is the 50th "battery to change batterys" wont hold my breath.
This appears to have more merit than some previous tech explained on this channel...if massive giga factories are been built to right now....for deployment of this tech in a year or 2...and this type of battery helped sustain a flight for 25 days....it seems to work...enough at least for companies to mass produce...
I hope you're right but just because they are building a massive giga factory (with government money I'm sure) doesn't mean much.
I appreciate your clear closed captioning. I know it's more effort, but yours are so much easier to follow that YT's auto-generated ones. +1
Please learn what the phrase, "begs the question" means, and when to use, "raises the question". -1
Technology Connections is another great channel with good closed captioning. I'm not positive but I think Smarter Everyday might also do manual captions.
Today’s battery development is very similar to computer design of the ‘80’s and ‘90’s where we saw a lot of different designs and ideas and now, they’re pretty much standard on a single design and capabilities of what works the best. Hope Amprius succeeds, at least in pushing battery chemistry and design further along.
Apple just switched laptop/desktop from CISC to RISC design. Many a software is switching from DT to NN. There are audio only UI hardware offerings. Neuralink may be a thing one day. I don't think the standardized on a single design assertion is correct.
@@TimLF… and GPUs, VR Headsets, wearables in general, cloud meta architecture, IoT.
@@TimLF Nothing ever becomes standardized on a single design - innovation is always a thing. But we know what he meant... All that crazy zoo of gadgets and trial and error of the 80s and 90s has sort of settled into an equilibrium today - and we're happy with our devices and their universality.
Why can't you build/grow a lattice and coat that with silicone? the current nanowire bottlenecks should be worked on, but it seems that is a showstopper unless someone thinks a breakthrough is imminent
Definitely worth continuing research and development. So many "wait-and-see" ideas for energy and energy storage right now. We need to mature these techs to see some that actually pan out.
The sila battery in the whoop was a fantastic upgrade. The battery is great. It is fascinating that scale is the entire challenge now and automotive drives the whole industry.
I worked in the research group where the CTO got his PhD in, back then they etched Silicon carbide to make carbide derived carbon, and Sila is essentially using the same process. That lab invented a new family of nanomaterials called MXenes which are carbide 2D materials made from bulk carbides making one of the best materials for RF applications but idk if there is much commercial applications due to corrosion of 2D titanium carbide
re: "It is fascinating that scale is the entire challenge now and automotive drives the whole industry." no, you only "think" automotive drives the industry by virtue of NOT knowing what NASA and the US Military (Navy in particular) have been up to for the last 50 years. see Wiki entry for the psychology of "Confirmation Bias".
@@cybyrd9615 I vaguely recall reading about MXenes years ago, iirc they thought it might be useful for computing applications (a lot of research has gone into alternative semi-conductors as we're really pushing the limits of silicon in that sector and ironically just starting to use silicon in the battery sector).
@@grn1 so for compute we are researching 2D materials with spintronic electron microscopes and they wanna make topological quantum computers with them. But MXenes are made like chemicals not grown, they don’t have the defect control necessary for what physicists want
So many new battery technologies have been unveiled since the advent of EVs, but none has since come to market. They remain lab projects
Can you give a full table overview of battery chemistries, density and cost-efficiency.
NiHydrogen: 140wh/kg and expensive (€/wh)
NMC: 260wh/kg en medium price
LFP: 90wh/kg en cheapest (€/wh)
Batteries have come so far in the past 15 years. I cannot wait to see where we've come 15 years down the line. :) We'll look back and think, how crazy it was that we waited a whole 30 minutes to charge our phones every single day from dead to full. The best thing about batteries, is that they can easily be swapped out. The cheaper, long-lasting, and smaller they get, the better!
re: "Batteries have come so far in the past 15 years". nope, as i'm fond of reminding those who don't know History, the battery was invented in 1800 by Volta, then later Li-Ion Chemistry was formulated in 1980 by "Johnny Be Good" (and others). right the Wall Calendar says it's now 2023, so that's the passing of 223 and 43 years respectively (and as Matt alludes) we're still using fundamentally the SAME Li-Ion tech that we always have. no, what you've seen the past 15 years is batteries grow EXPONENTIALLY BIGGER (and heavier) in the range of 90 kWh to 900 kWh (and Voltages increase) and then you've promptly CONFLATED that to mean "gains" have been made. welcome to the Myth of Progress. #MYTHOFPROGRESS
@benoitavril4806 re: actually a mercury battery has a specific energy of 700 Wh/kg. It's been known for a while, problem is, it doesn't recharge."
There has been next to no advancements in batteries made 30 years ago & batteries made today.
The only difference is we're making much larger batteries.
The reason being, we're already pretty close to what's thermodynamically & safely possible.
All this vaperware comes out every few months, then disappears, never to be heard from again.
Yup, there's a reason old school construction guys prefer corded tools, the batteries for cordless tools used to suck. Sure the tech and materials existed but it wasn't being produced for the tools we were buying.
When it comes to new battery tech I don’t get excited until I see the tech making a difference in actual products.
the ability to charge a phone up in a few minutes is already available in some of the Xiaomi phones
But that is Chinese, so better not tell about it. Otherwise we will have to admit Chinese technological superiority. Also BeiDou doesn't exist too, if nobody knows about it, nobody will have to admit it's better then GPS.
there will be a space for silicon batteries. other anode materials that have similar properties include having metals such as niobium and titanium. again, price, price, price is what it is all about. So not necessarily a direct replacement where Nb is >$20/kg and Titanate is $12 to $18/kg while graphite is $2/kg
If energy density is so much better, it also opens up the path to much lighter vehicles, same or better range with a smaller, lighter battery - it also means we could re-think the skateboard design for smaller cars and even see more micro cars on the market for crowded roads such as Japan or Europe.
Elon Musk has said that if there is a major improvement in battery density, it won’t lead to much more range, because 400 miles is really enough for almost any purpose. Instead, more density would result in lighter, less expensive vehicles.
@@davestagner To a point. Yes, you can reduce the amount of batteries as the main path, but there will be a point of min you still have to hit to still run the required min discharge rate. I dont know those numbers sadly, but there would still be a x amount of battery. Aka, more range would still be added. Also, most only do around 300 - 400 would still be an improvement. 400, 800, and 1k will be the target ranges for a while. Even if Tesla doesnt do it - others would still. Also, less weight = more range either way you look at it, so there will be just gains from just reducing the battery that they might not even care to carry over (aka, market it just better range for less the cost and weight).
@@adr2t I can see your point, but I’m not sure I agree. Range anxiety is about anxiety, not about functionality. I can’t drive 400 miles without stopping for food or other biological needs. Most people can’t. And as chargers become more readily available (and charging cycles get faster), it will be as convenient as gasoline. And that will happen by the end of the decade. If the choice for manufacturers is “Do 1000 miles on a charge to impress the manly men, or sell it for $4000 less in this competitive market”, I guarantee they’ll choose the latter. And I don’t see why there’d be a technical need for more capacity to achieve the same discharge rate.
@@davestagner Eh, 400 miles is a lot of cars, but its not all cars. Then there are variables that drops 400 down to 300. Keep in mind we're still in the 300 miles - not the 400. Thus we are still more like 200 atm (heating, weather, traffic, highway, etc). 400, 800, and 1k will be the ranges a lot of people will want because they dont have to worry about the range anxiety because they know they will be able to get to the charging station is time/gives them time. No matter the issues above not just range alone it self. Also, I already pointed that prices will drop, but ranges will still be a target they will want to still also hit. So yes, you are partly right they will focus on droping the amount of cells per pack, but still will try to get more range out of it too for maketing like they currently already do.
The hungry-hungry-hippo reference and vid cutaway was brilliant. Thanks for the info AND the chuckle. :)
A question: at 6:58 Amprius shows a comparison with a lithium-ion battery for mobile phones which says "3.7 V 6Ah --> 2.4Wh" Is there something wrong? Shouldn't it be 3.7 multiplied by 6 = 20.1Wh?
Edit: 22.2 Wh
but still, not 2.4Wh, which is not a typo, being on a official adv from the company
3.7 V x 6 Ah = 22.2 Wh
@@jwnomad
Yes, thanks, OBVIOUSLY is 22.2. But that it's not the point. Did you get the point?
To avoid legal problems we removed all identifying features. If you think the markings are bad try looking at the contacts, they appear to be black plastic .
@@richyfoster7694
Hi. It's nice to see an "official" answer, thanks.
P.S. What about the revenue in Q4? Should I keep the stock? Buy more? (Just kidding... ;) )
Another big difference is that instead of half a rack of batteries or one of those Tesla wall things, you'd be able to store enough battery power to power a house for a day, in just a 2 to 3U unit.
It would make adoption of battery storage for home solar/wind/etc much more realistic.
In the area around me, 50% of all houses now have solar on their roof, just a handful of people suppliment it with a small vertical turbine.
Not a single one of them has a battery unit.
Both because it is space and cost prohibitive (granted, the cost prohibition is in part because solar got heavy subsidies, batteries didn't.)
If a battery has a 50% weight advantage compared to current tech you could also definitely get a wooping range (if you keep the same weight ratio of batteries in EV's)? Paired with 6 minute charging it'll make EV's seriously contend with fossil fuels vehicles in charge time vs refuel, and range too. Now we just need infinite cheap electricity to actually be able to transition out of fossil fuel dependency, and power-grids that can handle these increased demands. :P Anyway, cool tech, hope it will prove viable at scale.
In the end much will depend on the price and expected cycle life.
@@blablup1214 This. Cost per charge is the big question about this tech now.
another problem is these still require Lithium.
i still think a better solution is battery swapping stations instead of charging stations, where sulfur batteries can be easily swapped in a matter of seconds and recycled from dedicated locations is a much better option. especially since they seem to promise 1000 times more energy per charge than a L.I battery and much easier to make supposedly with the abundance of sulfur element, and with one of the only down sides being their recharge cycles being a few hundred at most vs the thousands L.I can provide. but that can be eliminated with good infrastructure and battery swapping sites and proper recycling of older or non-funcional ones :)
just a thought.
Silicone anode batteries would be swell, but they swell, and that's not swell.
Didn't you watch this? Shows the way this works with silicon
@@sebyst7907I did. And it's only successful on paper so far.
@@sebyst7907 still though, it still creates a much stronger stress/strain profile on the substrate anode and leads one to believe they suffer capacity degradation over less cycles. Even if the energy and power density is 50% more for the same cost (unlikely) if you only get 10% of the cycle life of iron phosphate it’s not going to be viable. Range anxiety is closely followed by 20k battery replacement after 5-10years.
swell comment
We got about 10 news about new revolutional batteries every years for several past years but nothings hits the market
Isn't lithium the massive problem with batteries though? Are they going to be able to get away from Lithium in your opinion? You've covered a lot of batteries, and I always enjoy your commentaries, but I'm just concerned about lithium as the major component and feel like one of the other techs you've covered is going to have to take over at some point.
Lithium is not and never was “the problem “.
There is research underway to make sodium-ion batteries practical. Worse energy density, so not what you want for electric vehicles. But longer life and lower cost-per-unit-capacity, so ideal for grid storage, renewable energy and UPSs.
Best use, in my opinion, is light cargo EV scooters. Taking kids to school, getting groceries all on solar panel covered bike paths. Batteries could be on subscription service, so pull into your 7-11 or Circle K quick mart and swap out for new battery at the kiosk for another 100 miles of range at 25-30mph. No not for everywhere, sorry if you live on the North Pole, but there are MANY areas this would work. Saving petrol for the important stuff, like farms so we have food in the future (unless you hate your kids, then let them struggle)
Matt, I like how you point out most of the potential downsides of practical applications with new strides in EV battery tech. I enjoyed your video.
I think silicon batteries are "too good to be true". Faster charging, from a grid that is NOT being improved and decreasing power generation, is Lunacy; you can't draw blood from a turnip with a fire hose! To add 80 KWH to a 100KWH batt in 6 minutes would take an 850+ KW charger because of heat losses and slowdown near full charge. A Semi would require an 8.5 Megawatt charger!! >>>this represents an input of 5,700 amps at 1500 volts - that is insane!
When I saw the thumbnail I hoped this would be about silicon, I’ve seen lots of promising research being explored by a few channels on YT and I’m excited to see where this goes. If they can perfect this science, this would solve so many of the issues facing large scale expansion of electrification of the roads and our infrastructure. We’ll see!
Besides the two other silicon competitors you mentioned there is also Enovix. They tackle the swelling problem in a different way. Instead of the "jelly roll" method, they have their stuff lined up like pasta in a box, which keeps it from catching fire if you drill a hole in the battery.
Nothing is perfect, and ENVXs tech gives it a power advantage in small batteries like phones, but it goes away as the battery gets larger. So it's like a u shaped curve for medicine, where there is a sweet spot between the minimum effective dose , the optimum amount, and the lethal amount.
I'm so tired hearing about new batteries without them actually getting into mass production
I mention this every time someone claims we will see really fast ev charging. Let's assume a 20% to 80% day charge on a 100kwh battery. So that's 60kwh of energy that needs to be added to the battery. To do that in 6 minutes, 60kwh / (6/60) = 600kw charge rate on average assuming no losses. The NACS connector is rated for 250kW, so you'd need 3 of them per car, so there is an issue with simply delivering the power from the station to the car. Not too mention that if you want to charge 4, 6, 8, 10 cars at the same time you could find that the station needs a small power plant (6MW) onsite just to handle the peak loads. Basically the infrastructure required around the charging station is going to limit our ability to charge multiple vehicles at a time at these high rates even if we solve the battery side.
Given the hyped panic around depleting supplies of silicon for electronics, and the constant issues with sand in general for construction, I have to wonder how this battery tech is going to fare in the near future.
Different kind of silicon. Atomically, yeah, silicon. But the stuff used for making wafers (electronic chip substrates), and the sand used in construction are specific forms of silicon that are not as widely distributed in the Earth's crust. This use of silicon where they're building nanowires, uses raw silicon. The source isn't nearly as important, because the final form is artificial rather than a naturally occurring type that's in shorter supply.
@@darylsonnier658 Yep, constructing sand is specifically about rough vs smooth grains, which is why you can not use desert sand
I think the electronics thing is that it has to be ultra high purity?
Silicon is the 2nd most abundant element in the Earth's continental crust, so not like it's rare
@@HorzaPandaWater is very abundant too, heavy water not so much. If this thing uses any kind of silicon purity, great. If they don't, it will suck resources and electronics will only get more expensive.
@@HorzaPanda Yes, it's very high purity of specific types of silicon grains. If you had the patience and money to waste on it, you could start with any source of silicon and end up with what they need, but that's exceedingly expensive.
Silicon is not rare and there is nothing special about the source. Making very high purity is the issue and evidently we need more manufacturers for that.
Imagine the hit to the power grid when everyone comes home and charges their car.
I get one of these "new breakthrough battery" stories in my feed at least once a week. Please excuse us for being unenthusiastic until they get some market traction.....
Oh yeah, I always ask youtube to stop recommending this channel, but it still pops up at least once a couple of weeks for years. It's always the same bs about batteries that will save the world.
At this point I'll believe it when it actually comes to market in significant quantities. I'm tired of hearing about all these 'breakthroughs' for years that end up never materializing.
Nice video. I would like to see this make its way to the cordless tool world. It would definitely help free up space in service vehicles. Currently have to take up to 10 batteries with me for a day’s work.
There are a lot of Personal Electric Vehicles like EUC's, E-scooters, OneWheels, mobility scooters, E-wheelchairs, etc. that could benefit from better batteries greatly. EV proponents often forget that not all electric vehicles have to be cars and trucks.
LOL, Sila, in Slovak language, means Power :) Excellent company name ;)
A battery like this plus super capacitors at charging stations to keep the load on the power grid manageable would be a huge game changer.
Thats actually a "problem" of that battery. You probably would never find a charge station that could deliver that much power in such a short time. I dont know if the powercable could even handle that without overheating.
@@Daniel-rd6stIt would require a lot of power, but just because it *can* charge that fast doesn’t mean it has to. I think the existing 350-kW chargers would get you pretty close, at least a sub-15-minute charge to 80%. Heck, the Ioniq 5 can charge 10-80% in 18 minutes, and it maxes out around 230 kW.
This all sounds very promising but how does it hold up over time. Will this be able to out last the best lithium batteries right now?
You'll have to go looking that up yourself, but that's an important question for a lot of applications
Definitely longevity is something to be concerned about, but if the benefits of their battery are high enough and very importantly, also don’t increase the costs too much, even 2000 charge cycles might be sufficient for a lifespan. It could potentially push manufacturers to engineer vehicles, aircraft etc. in a way that permits faster and lower (labour) cost battery replacement. And while as low as 2000 cycles would be not great, at 50% additional energy density it would mean an average commuter would quite likely get 2 days of use out of it, so 4000 days which is roughly 11 years. For typical use of my family’s EV, that would actually easily be 3 days worth of travel. The economics of such a system could conceivably work but the devil is in the details for sure.
Matt I never miss your fabulous presentations and I have info. We used PHOTONS which are Dirac neutrinos (black/white particles) from pulsed lasers and shot it thru a TUNED venturi to create the BLACK Sterile Muons and BRILLIANT WHITE Electron Neutrino showers. I think we could harvest the white part as it exits the venturi so it is Raw Electrons. Would you contact me please Sir, If my design works it will provide lots of juice from a small solid state device...basically continuous free energy.
Energy put into making pulsed lasers must be free then?
Energy density is massively important for US-style long-range driving. Keep an eye on the company. But I really wish all these research companies would start making usable products: Power tools, vehicles, etc.
building the tools for industrilization is extreemly hard.
1 080 KJ/KG is LiON battery
45 000 KJ/KG is Gasoline energy desinty
@@calebfielding6352 building the grid to provide that power is a tough cookie too,
@@astemet Sure, but you also loose out a lot of that power from losses too. You also have the issue of too many tools using the same limited power resource means less over all energy pool.
@@astemet True but you can recharge the LiON battery and the Gasoline energy is gone when you burn it. And in a car most of it is wasted as heat.
Sticking my rule. A battery doesn't exist until they've sold 10,000 units or more.
Excellent video! We need all the breakthroughs we can get. 😊
I think the easiest way to see that these are not a breakthrough, is that you cannot buy them and the major manufacturers are not copying or racing to the market.
Good ol graphite again. As they say, graphite can do anything and everything, except make it out of the laboratory
The availability of Silicon anode battteries does not necessarily mean that this is the way to go. But it definitely moves the goalposts. If you manufacture conventional Li-NMC or Li-FePO cells, or if you want to get to market with a new cell technology or develop a new cell chemistry until it can go to market, Silicon anode batteries are something you have to compare to and to be better at least in some aspects to convince potential buyers.
Sandy Munro had visited their factory in Fremont, and it’s just next to one building of Tesla. The professor of Stanford University Cui Yi actually came from China and founded this company, he’s same age with me.
Amprius utilized some semiconductor technology like PECVD on their process, which made its battery carrying more energy. I once worked in a semiconductor and also operated, maintained the semiconductor manufacturing equipment HDP-CVD.
However, silicon had some issues like you or Elon said in the past, and it need be coated with carbon or other ways to keep silicon in the anode. Otherwise, silicon along in the anode would be crumbled.
But Amprius claimed some of their batteries can exceed 500Wh/kg according to what I saw few months ago…
Their problem now should be on how to ramp up production more quickly.
Matt, will they give you one of the batteries to show to us and run a few simple tests? If not, it would be worth an episode to talk about why.
I wonder how dirty silicon refining will be "than we previously thought" ?
A quick search reveals:
"...Raw quartzite is mostly silicon dioxide (SiO2), and the refining process begins with a reduction reaction to get rid of the oxygen. Crushed quartzite is mixed with carbon in the form of coke (coal that has been heated in the absence of oxygen). Woodchips are added to the charge as well; they serve both as a carbon source and a physical bulking agent that allows gasses and heat to circulate better in the furnace.
The arc furnaces for silicon smelting are massive installations with huge carbon electrodes. The electrodes are consumed during smelting, so new electrodes are screwed onto the tops of the current electrodes to make sure the process isn’t interrupted. The arc furnace requires massive amounts of electricity to maintain the 2,000°C temperature needed, so silicon refineries are often located where electricity is cheap and plentiful.
The reduction reactions inside the melt zone are actually pretty complicated, but can be summed up with two main reactions:
SiO2 + 2 C > Si + 2 CO2 SiC + SiO2 > 3 Si + 2 CO
In both reactions, the oxygen in the silicon dioxide combines with carbon to form the main waste product, carbon monoxide. A side reaction that occurs in a part of the melt zone inside the furnace produces silicon carbide (SiC), which is an unwanted byproduct (at least when the goal is to purify silicon; silicon carbide itself is a useful industrial abrasive). By making sure that silicon dioxide is far in excess in the furnace, the second reaction where the SiC acts as a carbon source for the reduction of silicon dioxide is favored, and silicon with up to 99% purity can be tapped off the bottom of the furnace."
as clean as a whistle (a burning carbon whistle blown with a CO2 supply)
Forward wind 10 years it would be interesting to see how many of these "promising technologies" Matt features ever pan out. Haven't seen any yet.
More chance of the return of Jesus or USA not having a school shooting
Big if true... This should be the disclaimer for all EV and battery news. There is a lot of vaporware around.
It sounds like your legroom or ground clearance may shrink with battery state of charge. Im going to let those silicon based batteries run their course in the market a while before i plug one in in my garage.
Jesus just bring one of these batteries to market already!
Amprius batteries are already out in the market. They just didn't go straight to mass production for the auto industry, but they're coming. Their batteries were in the vehicles that took the top 4 places in the recent Bridgestone World Solar Challenge
Wow, battery tech news that isn't some quasi vaporware that might see the light of day in 3 decades! Can't wait to find out the charge and longevity performance of those EVs!
Partnering with GM? Sigh. There is a graveyard full of GM partnerships. Mary is grasping at straws as they go down in flames. P.S. I hear you can buy their interest in Cruise pretty cheap😂
I am a robotics engineer and have worked at an autonomous drone factory and this battery looks good for that industry. They would be happy to pay double the price to get 30% more flight time just from upgrading the battery. As for cars, they need sooo many battery cells just to make a car and the price is already high for an electric car. Perhaps for PHEV vehicles as their battery is smaller than pure EV, otherwise the cost goes up too much except for Rivian or other exotic super EV cars, perhaps those hypercars could use it.
Would love to see your take on the mine being developed in Thacker Pass, NV for Lithium extraction from Clay. Great video Matt. The less we need from China the better.
Yeah, just their tech, nothing else
What charging method is used to only take 6 minutes to charge? There are three methods being used and the fastest method is very scarce except for Tesla's.
I wonder how well all those silicon ‘fingers’ will hold up to vibration or being dropped such as an automobile or cell phone 🤔
Silicon is pretty strong and the resonant frequency of such tiny hair is very high, so I don't think it will be a problem.
My understanding is that mass production methods for silicon anode batteries are also being developed directly across the street from Amprius Technologies, at Tesla's Kato Road R&D center. These batteries, and similar energy density Condensed batteries from CATL, will likely remain in limited applications, such as VTOLs and electric racecars, throughout most of 2024. I expect 2025 to be quite a different story as these silicon anode batteries are produced en masse and incorporated into Tesla vehicles such as Semi, Cybertruck, and their next generation Roadster.
LFP m3p many manufacturers switching lithium ion to lithium Iron as no cobalt and nickel
Contrary to the current range acceptability being 300 miles, we will need the standard to be 600. This is because the actual range of daily charging guidelines is only 60% of the rated range and doesn’t allow for anything but perfect conditions. 600 is my number but I think it works to compete with ice cars and the higher number would relive a lot of congestion at fast charge stations. I have seen this technology before and it is good to see progress. Batteries must and will improve very soon. EVs are just better in so many ways. With more home solar and wind power available to all homeowners it just makes sense. Thanks for following the progress on battery tech.
Good video, Matt. I'm a proponent of battery powered everything. I use them in my model airplanes almost exclusively. There are issues with the reality of societal battery conversion that nobody seems to address. It's not range anxiety, battery density, cost, or charge time. I'm hoping you'll read this and use your level-headed approach to explain the math to me and your viewers about the following: One issue is the amount of current (amps) required to charge a 100kwh battery to 80% in 6 minutes. This issue has multiple levels of difficulty, including the basics like charger capacity, charger cable/connector, and the heat created at the charge rate required. Then there is the infrastructure and power generation problem. It's not all that big of a deal until you start talkin about 10s of millions of cars, busses, semis or airplanes all needing high amperage at the same time. I'm not trying to be a downer but it would be nice for someone like yourself to take a real look at the numbers and report honestly on the feasibility. I think society is not well served by saying, "We'll have 1500km range batteries with 6 or 10 minute charge times," without stating that it is not currently (pun intended) possible and won't be possible for decades. It would be great to see the actual math on how much current is needed to charge 1 million, 10 million and 100 million 100kwh battery all at the same time, at night or when people aren't driving. The number of power plants required, the time it takes to build the facilities with current regulations, and the cost to do so, would also be good information to share. We should always look to the future but the reality of today can't be ignored. And let's not even start to talk about the power usage of future crypto mining. Thanks in advance.
Hélas ! The problem remains the same: lithium.
In Europe, the Gregoir and Van Acker report reveals that the needed lithium quantity to succeed in energy transition should be 20 times more than we use today…
However, this is a good news to improve energy density! 👍 But for me, we need to see if this technology could be compatible with other material (sodium for example)
Thx for highlighting another innovative battery tech👍
For EVs, I think we've already reached the point where, for most applications, making batteries cheaper is more important than making them denser. Even EV semi trucks have already been built using today's battery technology, and the primary limitation on their usage arises from the cost of the batteries, not their weight.
Where improved energy density will really matter is aviation, as airplanes are much more weight-sensitive and much less cost-sensitive than cars and trucks. If we ever want even the shorter commercial airplane flights to be electrified, we need big improvements in battery energy density, with the research shown in this video a good start in that direction.
Air taxi's and personally owned flying transport drone, are super viable. This means roads can be abandoned. It would be like the Jetsons, your flying drone will only fly a pre-programmed flight, for example from home to work or a vertically tall air parking garage.
Ground transport will be reserved for recreational driving and mass cargo transport, and mass transportation (bus, school, Trams, rail,) make it illegal to use road vehicles to go to work.
I have to say that a six minute recharge time for an EV would definitely push me over the line into switching over, assuming we got enough charging infrastructure in place to make travel reasonable.
you do realise that trying to dump enough current into a car sized battery to charge it in 6 minutes is going to require a cable that would need a crane to lift it.
@@b45her And that, along with myriad other potential issues, may end up being an unsolvable technical impediment. All I said was a 6 minute charge time would make an EV something reasonable to me.
There were too many breaktrough technologies in battery for me to believe this one will be the one.
I love your videos. One request: Could you make a short, “Doug deMuro” style version of each video? In other words, no intro, no background, just the essence of what you’re talking about, for the people who are familiar with the matter or who watch your videos a lot.
interesting tech! Having said that CATL's new LiFepo batteries charge to 80% in 10 minutes. Though techinically that is significantly slow than 6 minutes, most folks won't mind waiting an extra 4 minutes for a significantly cheaper battery/car
one thing i'm wondering is: with greater energy density, how does risk/danger increase when the battery is crushed or pierced?
More lithium is more intense fires. It's the lithium that in combination with water and air is the thing that is so hard to put out. So if you put more lithiumin them there willl be a longer/more intense fire if a fire occurs.
While how fast a battery can accept a charge is an important factor, one als o needs to consider how fast you can deliver the power, i.e. how much current time voltage the charger can deliver. That is the limiting factor for most home chargers and even for commercial chargers.
As for battery chemistries, China is currently building plants to produce sodium ion batteries. They are currently about 10% less energy dense, but that is expected to improve. There big advantage is that sodium (salt) is cheap and plentiful and that sodium ion batteries are much safer and less likely to catch on fire.