I made an excel sheet that compares tooling. Just take into account: tool cost, cycle time, tool change time and any additional time or cost. Put the numbers in and you’ll see which tool is better. Works great for longer runs. One offs are based on experience.
Hi Ian. Interesting topic.I think that you touched on something that is so true."In My Opinion" Most shops probably are not using the right type of tool for every job. I hardly ever have all my preferred tools for (One Off)jobs. The thing that I have noticed about the premium brands such as Kennametal. Iscar, Sandvik, Seco, ToolFlo, Allied, etc. is that they almost always work great every time even with maybe not the perfect type or grade of inserts. the Bargain Brands or less expensive brands work good too for certain things so I basically purchase both types based on the precision, number of parts on the job, money in the Job, and my shop Checking account balance. I don't want to break the Bank to have the most awesome tools but I feel the best tools for certain jobs and or processes reduces scrap and stress. These are just my personal opinions.
I agree with most of the points made except for the very last one. I suppose what a 'critical job' needs to be defined but... For short runs on crummy materials with tight tolerances, I would argue you have LESS time to figure out a process and the last thing you should be doing is fighting the tool to make a process work. Think large thin-wall Oxygen-free copper components with 10 micron profile profile tolerances. We made half the ordered pcs in scrap just trying to get a process down using general purpose carbide because the foreman's idea of copper was since it's soft it should be easy to machine. Sure, when the tolerances are 300 microns general purpose carbide not a problem but at just 10 microns it was a HUUGEE pain. Quick 30 min research and I had some DLC coated tools and we finally got the parts out. Application specific tooling is more expensive but it's the difference between making the part vs making scraps. Surfacing hardened steels, Union Tool/Moldino all day. Tungsten Carbide/ceramics, 6s/Union tool. That job really showed that "price" is not "cost".
You make a fantastic point and I wish I could have put exactly this scenario in there as an addendum! We’re fighting a copper job at my shop right now as well, so I can tell you identify heavily with this post 😅
End mills are harder to draw the line, turning inserts on the other hand the line is very clear, there is nothing more frustrating than using a chep insert, don't matter if we are using a manual lathe, chucker or swiss. A cheap insert will never get the job done better or equal.
I think for me it depends on what the work is and accuracy needed. If your doing repair work cutting through welds or thermal arc sprayed components. Cheap tooling is the way to go because it's going to be damaged regardless. If you have good known alloys your machining and holding tight tolerances spending money on better tooling it will last and produce more consistent results.
if I brought you a four flute to test against all those other tools I would have you check it with an indicator to see how bad the run out is....dont worry I'd bring a new holder with me cause I know its bad 😂
The very last thing that a shop should worry about is cycle time. Spindle utilization is far more important and costs almost nothing to improve. In most job shops, the spindles are idle more than they are turning. In other words, their machines are actually making chips($$) less than half of the time. Buying expensive tooling to reduce cycle times in those shops will actually DECREASE utilization rates. It's much more profitable to decrease down time than it is to decrease cycle time.
Eh, the logic isn't very great there. let's say you have a cycle time of 10 min, and a change over time of 2 min that's. You're getting 5 cycles per hour with a spindle uptime of 80ish%. If you reduce the cycle time to 5min with a 2 min change over, you're now getting 8.5 cycles per hour, but only at an uptime of 70%. So which is better? 8.5 cycles with 70% up time or 5 cycles with 80% up time. That's why this mindset of "if the spindles aren't turning, we ain't earning" is pretty bad. You're not getting paid by the number of times your spindle rotates, you're getting paid by the parts. Obviously you want to reduce downtime, and cycle time by having part dense quick change fixturing. However for one off runs, set ups and change over times will be more important than overall runtime
All my tooling is ebay import and local big chain machine and tool importers. They dont only sell import stuff, theres the odd Taiwanese and usa items too. Its all about what you can afford. 👍👌🇦🇺( dont drive the lambo to go get milk)
How on earth can you test cutting tools out FAIRLY and expect decent results running SHITTY HAAS machines!!!! They are the worst cnc machines on the planet!!!
And I don't mean to take a dig at someone, but it takes a great machinist to adapt to whatever machine they have access to. If you have trouble with HAAS machines... well... you know.
@iansandusky417 For the vast majority of parts a haas is going to be a perfectly acceptable. But to act like a haas is able to run high end cutting tools the same way an okuma or brother would is ridiculous. Though the guy is being an asshole.
I made an excel sheet that compares tooling. Just take into account: tool cost, cycle time, tool change time and any additional time or cost. Put the numbers in and you’ll see which tool is better. Works great for longer runs. One offs are based on experience.
That’s a great way to do it! I really should be more on top of keeping track of this stuff - i might steal your method!
Can you tell us? which brand did you find worked best for you?
@@therussianmachinists2409 all situations are different.
Hi Ian. Interesting topic.I think that you touched on something that is so true."In My Opinion" Most shops probably are not using the right type of tool for every job. I hardly ever have all my preferred tools for (One Off)jobs. The thing that I have noticed about the premium brands such as Kennametal. Iscar, Sandvik, Seco, ToolFlo, Allied, etc. is that they almost always work great every time even with maybe not the perfect type or grade of inserts. the Bargain Brands or less expensive brands work good too for certain things so I basically purchase both types based on the precision, number of parts on the job, money in the Job, and my shop Checking account balance. I don't want to break the Bank to have the most awesome tools but I feel the best tools for certain jobs and or processes reduces scrap and stress. These are just my personal opinions.
I agree with most of the points made except for the very last one. I suppose what a 'critical job' needs to be defined but... For short runs on crummy materials with tight tolerances, I would argue you have LESS time to figure out a process and the last thing you should be doing is fighting the tool to make a process work. Think large thin-wall Oxygen-free copper components with 10 micron profile profile tolerances. We made half the ordered pcs in scrap just trying to get a process down using general purpose carbide because the foreman's idea of copper was since it's soft it should be easy to machine. Sure, when the tolerances are 300 microns general purpose carbide not a problem but at just 10 microns it was a HUUGEE pain. Quick 30 min research and I had some DLC coated tools and we finally got the parts out.
Application specific tooling is more expensive but it's the difference between making the part vs making scraps. Surfacing hardened steels, Union Tool/Moldino all day. Tungsten Carbide/ceramics, 6s/Union tool.
That job really showed that "price" is not "cost".
You make a fantastic point and I wish I could have put exactly this scenario in there as an addendum!
We’re fighting a copper job at my shop right now as well, so I can tell you identify heavily with this post 😅
End mills are harder to draw the line, turning inserts on the other hand the line is very clear, there is nothing more frustrating than using a chep insert, don't matter if we are using a manual lathe, chucker or swiss. A cheap insert will never get the job done better or equal.
I think for me it depends on what the work is and accuracy needed. If your doing repair work cutting through welds or thermal arc sprayed components. Cheap tooling is the way to go because it's going to be damaged regardless. If you have good known alloys your machining and holding tight tolerances spending money on better tooling it will last and produce more consistent results.
Thanks for the video; helpful for me with speaking to my boss about better tooling and why we should try to get the cycle times down.
Thank you very much for checking it out!
if I brought you a four flute to test against all those other tools I would have you check it with an indicator to see how bad the run out is....dont worry I'd bring a new holder with me cause I know its bad 😂
The very last thing that a shop should worry about is cycle time. Spindle utilization is far more important and costs almost nothing to improve. In most job shops, the spindles are
idle more than they are turning. In other words, their machines are actually making chips($$) less than half of the time. Buying expensive tooling to reduce cycle times in those shops
will actually DECREASE utilization rates. It's much more profitable to decrease down time than it is to decrease cycle time.
Eh, the logic isn't very great there. let's say you have a cycle time of 10 min, and a change over time of 2 min that's. You're getting 5 cycles per hour with a spindle uptime of 80ish%. If you reduce the cycle time to 5min with a 2 min change over, you're now getting 8.5 cycles per hour, but only at an uptime of 70%.
So which is better? 8.5 cycles with 70% up time or 5 cycles with 80% up time. That's why this mindset of "if the spindles aren't turning, we ain't earning" is pretty bad. You're not getting paid by the number of times your spindle rotates, you're getting paid by the parts.
Obviously you want to reduce downtime, and cycle time by having part dense quick change fixturing. However for one off runs, set ups and change over times will be more important than overall runtime
good video Ian
Thank you very much for checking it out!
Try to switch from 1/2 4 flutes to 5 flutes, you will loose in time in slotting but you will achieve much more in Dynamic milling.
I’ve got some 5-flutes here I’ve been meaning to try out!
@@iansandusky417 if it’s helical solution or Imco, try their calculator
All my tooling is ebay import and local big chain machine and tool importers. They dont only sell import stuff, theres the odd Taiwanese and usa items too. Its all about what you can afford. 👍👌🇦🇺( dont drive the lambo to go get milk)
Can anyone name some brands that are nice quality and fair price?
How on earth can you test cutting tools out FAIRLY and expect decent results running SHITTY HAAS machines!!!!
They are the worst cnc machines on the planet!!!
What machines did you buy for your shop?
You know, I never understood the hate for Haas. They are decent machines. Never had issues with them.
And I don't mean to take a dig at someone, but it takes a great machinist to adapt to whatever machine they have access to. If you have trouble with HAAS machines... well... you know.
@iansandusky417 For the vast majority of parts a haas is going to be a perfectly acceptable. But to act like a haas is able to run high end cutting tools the same way an okuma or brother would is ridiculous. Though the guy is being an asshole.