Hey y’all! I think it’s pretty clear, but the idea here is to do the same calculations I did at whatever YOUR gas price is. So replace my $3 with the average cost of fuel where you are and you’ll be able to figure out the break even in your market. And remember the cost of gas fluctuates with the price of a barrel of oil. It increases but it also decreases. We’ve seen $5/gallon gas prices here that have since come back down to $2.25.
Josh, I totally agree with your assessment. What pushes the the buyer even farther from the Prime is the fact that you can get a much better deal off MSRP in the regular hybrid due to its much higher availability.
Spot on video!!! I bought my first Prime around the same time you did. Got it for around the same price you did ($31K or so). Sadly, that car got totaled in an accident but the insurance value was way more than I paid so it made it possible to buy a 2023 and so I did pay the higher price but it was offset by that insurance check. I also got the $6,500 lease cash and immediately bought the car out in cash so didn’t pay the interest associated with a lease like you mention in the footnote at the beginning of the video. By my calculation the interest paid over the lease term and the lease buyout fee actually cancels out almost the entire $6,500. Totally agree I LOVE MY PRIME but would not spend the current prices on them. $50K for an SE? Girl bye.
Yes! I remember you having bought your prime and then buying another one later on. Didn’t realize it was because the first was totaled. But glad you got a nice insurance payout! And I came to the same conclusion with that lease deal; with the money factor and lease buyout etc. it reduces that $6,500 to really just a couple thousand. Cheers and thanks as always for watching!
You really can’t go wrong with a Rav hybrid it is probably the single best car available on the market from a practicality, efficiency, and price standpoint.
Excellent presentation and delivery. Makes a whole lot of sense. Plus, although, it is nickels and dimes, you will earn a little interest on that money in the bank. And, at the end of 10 yrs, if your battery fails, it will be much cheaper to replace the hybrid battery. Great channel!!!!
Hey Josh, I appreciate your reviews. Not only are you easy to listen to but the information you present is well thought out and worth listening to. We bought a RAV4 Prime about 4 months ago, and yes, it was very expensive at $51K (before the $6,500 lease rebate). Given your assumptions about how people will drive their RAV4's (Hybrid or Prime) your conclusions make sense and they are backed up with actual calculations. Of course, we could quibble about the price of gas (currently $4.50+ in California), whether the Prime's power is worth paying for, etc. I could also make a case for the RAV4 Prime being just as fun to drive in EV mode as a full EV car, but that is not what I want to talk about. The main point I want to make is that your analysis missed a segment of the plug-in hybrid market and a very different take on the RAV4 Prime. We own solar panels and they generate enough power to run our house and enough excess power to charge our RAV4 Prime most every day. So, if we just do limited (
Thank you! And of course, as you say, everyone will have to do the same calculations relative to their local gas prices. As a California native I feel your pain. It’s one of my favorite things about living in Texas is gas is around $2.75 last I looked. That said, do be aware that you NEED to run your Prime’s engine regularly and empty the fuel tank semi-frequently. Regular grade ethanol gas will go stale in your tank after 3 months and that can gum up your fuel lines and kill your engine over time (same way clogged arteries can cause a heart attack over time) so personally I recommend doing one drive once a week in hybrid mode forcing the gas engine to run. I also use ethanol free gas in my Rav Prime for the extended shelf life as it is actually hard for me to run the tank down faster than 4-6 months). That might be illegal in California since it does pollute a bit more than ethanol gas. But that all to say, this is not a range extender, it’s still a full hybrid vehicle. The engine can seize up if you only run it a few times a year. So I always say that if the intent is to run a car with NO fuel costs, you’re better off with an EV because if you kill your engine by letting fuel go stale not running it that’s not a warranty issue and you’ll be on the hook for the cost of the repair (and that’s in the tens of thousands).
I think that it's not just Gas savings, the prime has much better acceleration etc also. The power upgrade is the biggest reason to pay more imho. Not that I can comprehend spending $50K on a small, non luxury suv!
Yes, that was clearly called out at the beginning. And the speed is fine but I can tell you as an owner, there have been very few times when I actually use all of that power and it doesn’t handle terribly well when all of that power is being delivered either.
hi Josh - great video as usual. I agree the regular RAV4 hybrid is the better choice for most people. Having said that, the elephant in the room not accounted for or acknowledged in your analysis is the different trade in / resale values for each. It is reasonable to assume the prime model will have a higher resale value, all other things being equal.
Hello and thank you! Two things regarding deprecation. First, what you’re taking about is TCO or total cost of ownership which my calculations don’t get you to. I was simply looking at how much gas you could buy for the price difference between the two. We’d have to factor in a lot more to get to TCO. Second, regarding depreciation, it’s surprising but both hold their value about the same. I find that zero depreciation (or appreciation in our case) is more the case for people like us who bought with significant incentives at the lower, introductory MSRP. BUT, people who have bought at the much higher current prices are actually seeing a (2023 Rav Prime XSEs are selling for less than MSRP which means whoever traded them in got considerably less than that on trade). Rav hybrids, meanwhile, still sell for around MSRP a year or two old on the used market. There’s also a far larger market for Rav hybrids than Rav primes since a Rav hybrid can literally work for anyone but you have to have a home where you can plug in at night for the Prime.
Bang on, Josh! Thanks for crunching the numbers. Nearly $50,000 for a loaded RAV4? Nope. On another note, I'm starting to see more folks talking about turning their backs on Toyota trucks due to the outrageous prices for Tacomas and Tundras. Believe it or not, Nissan is slowly becoming a go-to for that kind of purchase. Toyota is losing its way and it hurts me to say that. Thanks again for posting this info.
Thank you! And that $50K people are paying isn’t even for a loaded Rav, it’s for an SE Prime just like mine! Yikes! And also, I think Nissan is making some great products these days. The Pathfinder and QX60 are terrific since they’ve still got the trusty old VQ-series V6 and a real automatic. I’m excited to see what they do with the next Murano since I assume it’ll follow that same 3.5 V6 + 9-speed auto combo. I’ll be another one who likely won’t buy another Toyota truck with the pricing and turbo engines.
Thank you! You still have to go to the gas station, though. The gas engine needs to be run regularly, it’s not just there for emergencies. Personally I try to use the engine when I’m on the highway and drain the tank once every 2-3 months. So you will still go to the gas station. If not going to the gas station is important, you should look into a full EV. Also, if you did want a Prime I am starting to see them come down in price on the used market! They’re still expensive relative to the hybrid but they’re not astronomically expensive like they were before.
Excellent analysis and great way to put the savings in context. I have seen very high dealers premiums on the Primes. They were taking high bids at one point. Toyota needs to address supply-demand through a more fair ordering system. Ford had to crack down on dealers with the Lightning and Raptor pickups at one point. I think E demand has waned since.
Love this in depth analysis. Also can’t get enough of you providing your take on the numbers and what this means in the real world. You should take the same approach for hybrid vs nonbybrid vehicle. Should buy a hybrid?
Ahahaha omg hi. Yes you should buy a hybrid! The cost difference is pretty minimal and reliability over the long term on a hybrid is better than a non-hybrid. But also for you… think about whether you may want to have a second child and if the Rav would give you enough space especially when they’re 5-10 and doing sports/hanging out with friends.
Also the hybrid is quicker than the gas 0-60, and tows more. (Might have a higher total load carrying rating too.) IMO, the hybrid gives it enough extra oomph in the 0-60 to move it from "inadequate" to "adequate", while at the same time, getting much better fuel economy. (Towing is 1500 in gas, and 1750 in hybrid. Not sure if AWD vs FWD makes a difference. I don't pay a lot of attention to that because FWD is a non-starter for my climate.)
@@joshjamescars Been there, done that with the kids. IMO, get the size that fits most of the time. No law says you have to be the vanpool for all their friends. If it is rare instances where you need to haul a bunch of kids, take two cars. Back in the day we had mini-vans for just that reason ("In case" we needed to haul all their friends), and 95% of the miles driven were with the family of 4 or fewer. After suffering through 2 piece of garbage Chrysler products (problems galore), we downsized to an Outback (which was a lot smaller back then) and used a car top carrier when we needed the extra room. So often, my wife was just driving the minivan by herself to run errands or pick up one kid. Big waste for us.
Exactly. I did buy a 2021 Venza Hybrid as it was the only car on the lot. As an ultra low mileage diver, it made no sense. I saved $ 300 a year, based on Costco average price of $ 3.00 a gallon. However my state charges an extra $ 75 plate renewal fee for hybrid owners. That reduced my yearly savings to $ 225. I just traded it on a 2024 Highlander gas turbo. Half the mpg but with significant discounts on new gas models. I did the math. Between the lower price on the gas models, and the $ 4,000 discount on the gas model, it would take me 20 years to break even with the hybrid gas savings. I do miss the no stop start feature on the hybrid. Fortunately, the Highlander has a convenient shut off next to the steering wheel. I tap it on every start. Fast forward 10 years. Resale vale. Would you rather buy a 10 year hybrid with a 10 year old battery, or a 10 year old gas model.
This is helpful, and aligns with what I found in my car shopping spreadsheet. For our use case, the PHEV would cost us 59.2k to buy and operate for 10 years. The HEV would cost 50.5k. (For the insatiably curious, that figure is 35.3k for our 2023 Bolt EV and 59.7k for our 2016 CX-5.)
Josh, that’s a perfect example of not spending extra money to save gas. Most people don’t understand the irony of either buying an expensive plug-in hybrid to save on fuel or trading in your perfectly fine car for a hybrid just to save on fuel. You will lose thousands on your trade just to buy a more complex vehicle. Not only will that $10,000 you spoke of pay for years of gas, it will accumulate interest just sitting in the bank. Even if it’s the current rate of 4.25 percent for savings, it’ll grow without you having to do anything. Personally I don’t see a financial benefit in owning a hybrid long term. Eventually you’ll have to replace the battery and be set back $6000 or more. That right there is all the fuel you saved. And I recently learned you have to drive a hybrid at least twice a week to keep the battery from depleting quicker. For a retiree who may not drive that often and/or is in a two-car family, that just doesn’t make much sense.
I agree with the premise here but buying and owning a hybrid long term does make sense IF you need to buy a new car because your current car is failing (or got totalled or something). In that situation, a hybrid is worth it since the premium is generally only about $1,000 on most Toyotas versus a non-hybrid. Also, a battery change isn’t $6K, it’s more like $1-2K (unless you get ripped off by a dealer). Further, the hybrid battery warranty is 10 years or 150,000 miles on Toyota hybrids. So you’ll only pay to change the battery if it fails after that 10 years and it would be about the same cost as a new set of tires.
@@joshjamescars When a very handsome, articulate, intelligent Asian man provides insightful information about my favorite vehicles, I tend not to miss any of your Vids 🔥🔥🔥
Thank you for all the work you've put into this comparison . You are absolutly correct that PHEV is not worth buying unless you intent to keep it for ever, but then the time to replace that big battery will eventually get there and probably will erase all the savings you achieved. Unless battrey costs come down it's not worth a PHEV or pure electric.
Thank you! And yes, completely. Batteries do get cheaper over time as the materials and production gets cheaper but versus a basic HEV battery replacement, the PHEV battery will always be more.
Excellent work with your analysis between RAV4 Hybrid and Prime. The prime sure is nice, but it’s way too expensive. That’s why my aunt chose the RAV4 hybrid instead of the RAV4 Prime since the fuel economy is still very good (though if the tax credit applied like before, we would have pick that option like you did with your prime). Recently, I checked at Toyota Marin (North of San Francisco) through their smartpath website and dealer’s website, and I was shocked that every RAV4 Prime gets a little over $2000 off of MSRP though it still is expensive. I was shocked because it still is really popular in my area. Btw, not related to this videos, what are your thoughts about the upcoming 4Runner debuting on April 9th? Also, what do you think about the facelift version of the 2025 Honda Civic Honda has teased?
Thank you! And yes I have started to see discounts on the east coast too. I think they pushed the price so high that people who want a fuel efficient hybrid will buy the Rav hybrid and people who want an EV will go and buy a Model Y which is also much cheaper. I’ve also heard from a lot of people who really wanted a Prime but backed out once they got in there and realized how expensive it would be all in. As for the new 4Runner, I like it! The interior looks like it has a ton of cheap hard plastic but otherwise I think it’s a great update and will probably be a home run for Toyota as long as they keep the pricing somewhat reasonable. And I absolutely love the Civic and am very much looking forward to the hybrid coming out!
I would put $10000 into S&P500. At 10% return a year, give you $10000 of free gas + $6000 extra + take back your principle $10000. And I like to buy 5 years old car. and save even more.
I didn’t realize the prime back in 2021 was much cheaper. I just came back from your other video, breaking down how you basically paid only $32,000 out the door for your current 2021 model. I was looking at the 2024 prime as a next car, but realized that I would be overpaying by ALOT. The things is, I really like how the drive of the car is smoother and quieter than the hybrid, but at that price point I’m not entirely sure that it’s worth paying the $14,000 extra premium over.. versus when you got it for $32,000. If it were still that price I’d definitely get it in a heartbeat. It’s a shame Toyota raised the price so much 😢. Hopefully the new model that comes out will have a better discount hehe. Also the primes are all made in Japan, another reason I wanted to buy it. I currently have an 2005 rav4 made in Japan and still works great! I just wish the prime were $32,000(with the incentives) still 😢. You picked it up at a great time (: - also the analogy on the $10,000 could go a step further by putting it into a HYSA and locked in at 5% per year, by the tenth year you’d have more than $5000+ accrued 😮
Hello! Yeah, it’s really unfortunate that the Prime is so expensive. You can get $6,500 lease cash in some places on a Prime, and the trick to that is you lease the car from the dealer and then 3 months later, buy it out of the lease. That will save you a bit. Also, to be fair to Toyota, the $10K we got off ours was the $7,500 federal incentive plus a $2,500 state incentive so it wasn’t them giving us that money. But it absolutely made the final price of the car much more attractive than it is now. And finally-as expensive as it is now, considering the RX450h+ uses exactly the same drivetrain (literally exactly the same) and costs $75K, $43K for a Prime SE isn’t terrible.
@@joshjamescars LOL understandable! But you say all that with some steep discounts 😆 - about $3,500 extra versus today and also - the original msrp went up as well :( just be real man ahaha 🤣 you guys got an great deal! If it were still that price I 100% see it’s worth it, but because I don’t even have an electrical outlet like you guys, I will not be able to even charge overnight. I saw the 5 things you liked and the 5 things you disliked about the car and it’s clear that this Prime for me would be more of an luxury/impusle buy move lol. But still nevertheless I would have loved to try to go through the plug in hybrid route. I would have tried to make it work :p
Hey Josh, awesome video as usual My dealer currently has a prime. They haven’t been able to sell at $53K. The Lexus dealer has a NX 450+ that is used with 400 miles listed for 63K. I definitely agree with your gas savings calculations however I’m wondering if these plug-in hybrids hold their value and depreciate even less than the hybrids what are your thoughts? PS .. I had FOMO… lol 😅 23 Macan GTS for now ❤ love it. Will return to Lexus/ Toyota when finished playing around 😜🫣
HAHA at your Macan! KEEP IT. Have you seen the new Macan EV? UGGO. And like I don’t see the point of a Porsche EV. But so goes the times. 😅 And yes, typically the PHEVs hold their value better but only if they’re brand new and in good condition. I think over time with mileage and age and wear they may depreciate more. I’m surprised the Prime your dealer has hasn’t sold. Although personally I would never pay $53K for a prime either LOL.
@@joshjamescars yes you knew I would end up there didn’t you lol 😀 I’ll send you some pics later. I did see the new Macan EV I like the style of it if it was a model, but I do not like the direction Porsche is going.. the Cayman is also the last year of gas model.. 😣 I’m surprised nobody spotted either. Apparently a lady bought it and travels too much and didn’t wanna worry about plugging it in so she returned it for a hybrid. It’s fully loaded, but that is insane paying that for a Toyota 🤣
@@joshjamescars cool cool. So I just need to take a Time Machine back to the time of the $7500 tax rebate when supply was non existent and dealers marked up $10-20k 🤣🤣🤣
Hahaha! There’s a Camry video coming sometime this month that’s probably going to be a half hour long so… next time! ;) But thanks as always for coming back and watching!!!
Completely agree with your conclusions but you missed one major factor: resale value. Purchase price is not the cost of ownership. If the Prime had significantly better resale value than the hybrid, the delta between the two in actual cost of ownership could be much smaller. For example if you keep each car 5 years and the Prime depreciates $5k and the hybrid depreciates $15k, the actual cost of ownership between the two would be the same. I don't know what the actual depreciation difference is but it's more important actually than the purchase price in this comparison.
You’re right that depreciation matters, however please note that I did not say that this was calculating the total cost of ownership, simply what one COULD do with the additional $10K price premium on the Prime. Also, depreciation is fluid and entirety dependent upon factors outside of your control. There’s no way you can make a blanket statement like “A Rav4 Prime only depreciates 5K” because it depends on how well a person treated it while they had it. Sure, if you keep it in pristine condition, never use it as a utility vehicle, keep it low mileage, and park it out of the sun. But wear and tear matters too. And then there are the things outside of your control. You could get into an accident that gets repaired and goes on the CarFax. Likewise, Toyota could release an INCREDIBLE new Rav Prime at the same price with way better specs and more availability. So you’re right that depreciation matters but it’s a wager. And again, we were not talking total cost of ownership, just purchase price.
I see your point, but buyers looking at the 2 vehicles 5 years from now that are $10k apart, will be faced with exactly the same decision, on a cost basis, as the new buyers were. Again is it worth spending $10k more? The same calculation still holds true.
love the analysis video, sub'd. For me the charging/gas was a byproduct, was predominantly wanting that 0-60 in 5.5 lol, stealth sleeper car. Everyon expects a model Y to be fast, no one expects a rav4 to pummel their sports car. But yea, doesn't make financial sense to buy it over a hybrid, unless ur want that 'stealth' performance
Thanks Josh, I actually just bought one and don't yet have it but I'm excited to get it soon, another question, is it possible to put a roof top tent on it, do you know?
You can but definitely go and look up the load rating for the roof. And, having anything on the roof will kill your MPG and miles to kilowatt hour economy.
Wow doing the math on a 6 year loan - 6 years interest is $2637 so now it cost 13123 for that 10,485.91 loan so that is 182.27 extra per month on a 6 year loan- great video so thanks for the thoughts on this. Toyota loan is 7.69 now in Canada. This is on the SE models. Yes I know Toyota has been doing these for a while now but we really are in the beginning stages so can only see pricing changing in the future. It is sad in fact because to protect the world from destruction cost so much from these developers to change over. About 8000 difference to say with gas on LE so now that is like a 18000 difference for LE gas to SE prime. No SE for gas models.
Yep! I’m so glad you did the math; so many people just look at the monthly charge or whatever and don’t think about how much they’re actually paying in interest. Also, in regard to the 18,000 CAD difference from LE to SE prime it’s definitely a huge increase, but I have to say, the Rav LE hybrid, which is about $2K more I think, is a tremendous value if you’re looking for the cheapest possible fuel efficient Rav. And as mentioned in the video, I don’t think there’s enough in the Prime to fear missing out on.
Yes, tax makes a big difference too depending on where you are. The insurance note is interesting. For us, insurance is quite low for the Prime (around the same as it would be for a standard hybrid) although we bundle all 3 of our cars together.
@@joshjamescars i have heard the insurance on ev's (hence probably to a lesser extence for hybrids/PHEV) is very high because if the battery pack gets damaged in an accident the car will probably be totaled.
Oh that is true of EVs but most PHEVs are much more similar to a standard hybrid in terms of insurance cost since the Prime, for example, is literally just a Rav hybrid with a slightly larger battery. But nothing like EVs where the battery pack could be $60K to replace.
My 2017 RAV4 which I purchased in Nov 2018 at 0% got totaled because of other reckless driver. I loved each & everything about that car & now insurance is paying only 21k & I’m forced to buy a new one. Can’t decide what to buy regular, hybrid or prime(way too expensive).
Oh no. So sorry to hear that. The good news is that the current Rav is a really great car. I would personally go with the hybrid as it’s not much more than a standard Rav, gets outstanding fuel economy, and is more reliable than the gas Rav (resale on hybrid Rags are crazy good too).
km in Canada Rav 4 Hybrid per 100km 5.8/6.3/6.0 where as Rav 4 prime says 5.7/6.4/6.0- I don't get the value with SE models of price difference- $10,485.91 Fuel is now 1.58 per liters or just over 7 dollars for Canadian gallon. Also think about battery life. We will all be leasing one day because of because of battery tech . Loans now or just over 7 percent. Thanks for video
And folks .... please ... Just because its a plug Rav4 doesn't mean that it's a electric vehicle so avoid to drive just on EV mode This car is not a Tesla, at end of the day it's a Hybrid plug in gas Rav4...
I'm just starting to look for a car and my mind is blown by the numbers I'm seeing. Luckily the loan/lease rates have dropped substantially since last fall. We were seeing 8.5% last fall and now I'm seeing 2-5%. I'm in Canada. I did look at the Prime but the wait time was crazy and I couldn't figure out how anybody could make sense of that payback. It will be interesting to see how they price the Crown Signia. That might be the one to go for. I also looked at the NX but to get a sunroof you have to buy a huge package. Up here on the PHEV it's 17.5k dollar package. On the hybrid it's 5-8.5k. LOL
It’s insane how much cars cost today! The Crown Signia is likely to be around the same price as an NX given that Canada is only getting one, fully loaded Limited trim as I understand it. We will get a lower spec XLE and then the same loaded Limited trim you all get. The engine in the Crown Signia is the dealbreaker for me, though. The finance rates you mention are pretty great, though! They’re still up between 5-8% here for excellent credit.
@@joshjamescars Well the Crown Sedan Ltd trim up here costs 54k. It's actually reasonable. That's the trim that the Signia will be up here. No Platinum trim which has the hybrid max.
I’m assuming this is without the $6500 USA LEASE rebate which, granted only makes sense if you can immediately buy it out. If so the 10k diff is about 5-6 years of gas in the hybrid based on California gas prices ($5/gal)
Yes the lease cash can be tricky because like you say, you have to buy the car out in cash immediately after leasing to make it worth it. Some states also handle taxes differently too (you have to pay again on the buyout) which can further decrease the savings, plus lease buyout fee of about $1K.
It seems that this calculation assumes 100% ev driving, when reality would be a little different. Realistically, perhaps 75% of trips are short distance (30-40 mi round trips), so the prime realizes return on that extra $10k acquisition cost at that 3/4 rate. In other words, 3k of of the 12k annual miles would require purchase of gasoline, making the energy cost savings in favor of the prime roughly $700/yr ($774 @ $3/gal, less some for ev charging) or a 14-year breakeven point. In CA where I live, breakeven for my 2020 hybrid XSE would be closer to 10 years ($4.65/gal. with avg 40mpg).
This calculation actually doesn’t take into account any driving in the Prime, it’s simply how much gas you could buy to get to parity with the Prime’s ~$10K price premium over a similarly equipped Hybrid. So you’re right, your break even is actually longer because the Prime also needs both gas. And per your calculations above, electricity isn’t always free either so your break even would have to factor in that cost as well.
The Prime XSE isn’t fully loaded (at least in the US). The base Prime XSE is missing the panoramic moonroof, HUD, digital rear view mirror, 360-camera, memory seats, and full SofTex seats.
Hey Josh, csn you tell me about the fog lights on an Rav4 Prime XSE. I called a dealer and he said there are no fog lights on any Primes? Is tjat true do you know?
Yes that is true. The XSE has marker lights in the bumper but no fog lights. Don’t let that worry you-since most cars have high power LED headlights these days fog lights aren’t necessary the way they used to be.
Would you get a 2025 NX 450h+ (for $60k thanks to rebate incentives) or a 2022 RX 450h (for $50k)? The cost difference is not a big issue for me cause I plan to keep it for many years.
Those are two really different vehicles. Buy the NX if you want a driving appliance (and only if you can plug in every night), but buy the RX because you want a beautiful looking, feeling, and driving luxury car that you can drive for the next 20 years with no issues.
If you like the extra power of the prime and can get it at a lower price- maybe over 5k over the regular hybrid- then get the prime. The extra power and convenience of having that big battery is worth it… just not worth 10k in my opinion.
Don't forget to add in the extra sales tax on the price difference. In my state, 9.2% is typical (by the time every county, city, etc tacks on to the State). What I've been trying to figure out is whether the comparable trim levels (SE vs SE Prime), or XSE vs XSE PRIME, have different levels of equipment. (Does the Prime SE come with a few more features than the Hybrid SE?) The Toyota web site allows you to "compare cars", but not within their own brand. I can't seem to pull up and compare like I can compare trim levels within the hybrid line. (Prime RAV 4 is a different group.) I know the Prime adds some sound insulation to the windshield and front side windows, but is there anything else? With the rebates gone for BUYING a PHEV, there is still something going on for those who lease (local dealers sites show 6500). Someone alluded to some chicanery by which you could initially lease and get the rebate, then convert to a purchase. That may or may not be an actual thing. But yeah, payback on gas alone is way off in the distance. Gas is a lot more expensive where I live, but doing your calcs show I'd be able to drive 90K miles "free" by skipping the Prime, and that does not include interest earned (easy to get a 5% MM or CD these days). Not sure what Toyota is thinking. Plus there is a mpg penalty for the Prime with the extra weight of battery, so once not on pure electric, you're taking a bit of a hit there too. (I know EPA numbers are similar, but Consumer Reports says 34 combined in the real world on the Prime. But they do gush about the Prime.) The extra quiet and 5.5 0-60 is enticing, but I just don't see how they can get 10K more for the plug-in. I watched a video on the 2025 and 2026 (lots of speculation) trying to see if the Gen 5 hybrid system (see the '25 Camry) is going to be in the '25 RAV4, and it was not known. They were suggesting that full re-do would be a '26 model and the new Prime MIGHT have 100 mile range in pure EV mode. Meanwhile, prices for all of them are bloated and it feels like the selection of '24s is dwindling to the colors I won't buy. Another angle on the decision is to just look at how much you currently spend on gas each year. If electricity was free, and you never had to use significant gas (say just to keep the tank somewhat fresh you burn 4 tanks a year), THAT would be your MAX savings. But you know electricity isn't free (it's relatively cheap where I live). And you are somewhat rolling the dice on future energy prices. At $ 4.50 a gallon, payback is quicker than your $ 3.00 example. Insurance might be a factor too, and some states hit you with a surcharge at licensing for a hybrid or PHEV to help compensate for the fact that you are buying less gas, and paying less in gas taxes used for roads. You bought yours at the right time. But yeah, I just saw a review and they were gushing about their $ 52K XSE Prime (before Sales Tax, licensing, etc.) You can probably get an entry level BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Lexus, or Acura for that.
Hello. I’m not going to be able to address all of this but the SE and XSE grades are very similar to the hybrid grades. And yes you can lease it at the dealer and then write a check for the remaining balance as soon as your account is opened with TFS.
Your analysis of fuel costs assumes gasoline prices of $3/gal. In 2024, gasoline is $4/gal. In 2025, gasoline could cost $5/gal. I think that affects your predicted miles.
I didn’t think that I needed to explain that gas prices vary from place to place, but they do, and are based upon the price of a barrel of oil which means that prices go up AND DOWN. Our prices here in Texas have fluctuated between $2.25 and $3.75 and have stayed pretty constant over the last 6-8 years. To that end, read the pinned comment about applying whatever gas price you have in your market to the same formula and you’ll figure out the numbers for yourself.
While more complex, ICE vehicles aren’t nearly as expensive to make. Batteries (especially huge ones like are in the biggest EVs) are expensive. They’re made of things called “RARE earth materials” for a reason. Hyundai has said the price of a new battery for an Ioniq5 is more than the cost of the car itself (around $60K). Plus automakers have to recoup the tremendous cost of their R&D programs and building of all new manufacturing into the cost of the car. Most companies are losing money on their EV programs right now, so they’re going to recoup as much as they can from consumers thru the price of the vehicle as they can.
I have a Toyota Venza hybrid with the same power train as the Toyota RAV4 and I only fuel up with Premium because I know for a fact 6 years from now I won’t get a Check engine lights because my catalytic converter won’t go bad I rather spend my money on premium then have to change a CAT in the future!!!
Sorry to say, you’re wasting your own money there. Not sure where you heard that you need to run premium but that’s simply not true. The only cars that need premium are the ones that run at high-compression ratios where they NEED the increased combustion from premium. But you know once the exhaust gasses leave your engine compartment, they’re all the same whether you run premium, mid grade, or regular. There are millions of Rav hybrids and Prius hybrids that are 10+ years old that have hundreds of thousands of miles on them and have never needed a new cat converter. In fact, you’re way more likely to get yours stolen than to have to replace it due to failure.
Hi there. As a mechanical engineer who has spent her career designing engines (including for Toyota), this is unproven by any scientific, at-scale data. Like Josh says, there are some engines that do need premium but yours definitely does not. Keep the tin foil hat on if you’d like but you could be saving a ton. By the way, you know what’s far more likely to go out in your car that’s way more expensive to fix and replace? Your radar sensors, ADAS camera module, the ECU and vehicle computer, 360-cam if you have it in your Venza, and your power folding mirrors.
The Atkinson cycle engine should not use premium gas according to my Lexus technician. It performs best at 87 octane because this engine has an optimum compression ratio and will not affect power output.
What? I’ve got a 20 year old Honda accord with 195k miles on it, daily commuter and only use regular octane gas and my original cat still passes California SMOG. you’ve been misinformed
I guess I don't understand the point of the math. Don't most people buy a Prime because they feel they can greatly limit their CO2 emissions as most of their driving will be electric? It's an environment purchase for them, not because it's necessarily a better vehicle. They are willing to pay a little more for that reason.
So at least to me, if that’s the aim you can get a much better pure EV for less money than the Prime. I think reducing your carbon footprint is a valid reason to buy an electrified car but I personally would go full EV to achieve that. You can get a great model 3 or model Y for far less than a Prime SE today.
@patrick7228 That’s why it’s important for people to do the homework and run all the simulations to really figure out what will best achieve their end goal. The “feeling” of range anxiety is generally unfounded as is the “feeling” that they’re getting a value or saving money with the Rav.
Hey y’all! I think it’s pretty clear, but the idea here is to do the same calculations I did at whatever YOUR gas price is. So replace my $3 with the average cost of fuel where you are and you’ll be able to figure out the break even in your market. And remember the cost of gas fluctuates with the price of a barrel of oil. It increases but it also decreases. We’ve seen $5/gallon gas prices here that have since come back down to $2.25.
Josh, I totally agree with your assessment. What pushes the the buyer even farther from the Prime is the fact that you can get a much better deal off MSRP in the regular hybrid due to its much higher availability.
Yes!! Most definitely. Plus I haven’t seen many dealers marking up Rav hybrids versus Rav Primes.
Spot on video!!! I bought my first Prime around the same time you did. Got it for around the same price you did ($31K or so). Sadly, that car got totaled in an accident but the insurance value was way more than I paid so it made it possible to buy a 2023 and so I did pay the higher price but it was offset by that insurance check. I also got the $6,500 lease cash and immediately bought the car out in cash so didn’t pay the interest associated with a lease like you mention in the footnote at the beginning of the video. By my calculation the interest paid over the lease term and the lease buyout fee actually cancels out almost the entire $6,500. Totally agree I LOVE MY PRIME but would not spend the current prices on them. $50K for an SE? Girl bye.
Yes! I remember you having bought your prime and then buying another one later on. Didn’t realize it was because the first was totaled. But glad you got a nice insurance payout! And I came to the same conclusion with that lease deal; with the money factor and lease buyout etc. it reduces that $6,500 to really just a couple thousand. Cheers and thanks as always for watching!
Great insight and detail as always Josh! You’re the BEST! 🥇
Thank you so much for watching and for the kind words!
Josh, this a very good video .In Canada the wait time at our dealer is two years for a Prime. We will stick with our RAV4 Hybrid. 🇨🇦👍👍
You really can’t go wrong with a Rav hybrid it is probably the single best car available on the market from a practicality, efficiency, and price standpoint.
Excellent presentation and delivery. Makes a whole lot of sense. Plus, although, it is nickels and dimes, you will earn a little interest on that money in the bank. And, at the end of 10 yrs, if your battery fails, it will be much cheaper to replace the hybrid battery. Great channel!!!!
Yes! Both things you mention here are true.
Hey Josh, I appreciate your reviews. Not only are you easy to listen to but the information you present is well thought out and worth listening to. We bought a RAV4 Prime about 4 months ago, and yes, it was very expensive at $51K (before the $6,500 lease rebate). Given your assumptions about how people will drive their RAV4's (Hybrid or Prime) your conclusions make sense and they are backed up with actual calculations. Of course, we could quibble about the price of gas (currently $4.50+ in California), whether the Prime's power is worth paying for, etc. I could also make a case for the RAV4 Prime being just as fun to drive in EV mode as a full EV car, but that is not what I want to talk about.
The main point I want to make is that your analysis missed a segment of the plug-in hybrid market and a very different take on the RAV4 Prime. We own solar panels and they generate enough power to run our house and enough excess power to charge our RAV4 Prime most every day. So, if we just do limited (
Thank you! And of course, as you say, everyone will have to do the same calculations relative to their local gas prices. As a California native I feel your pain. It’s one of my favorite things about living in Texas is gas is around $2.75 last I looked.
That said, do be aware that you NEED to run your Prime’s engine regularly and empty the fuel tank semi-frequently. Regular grade ethanol gas will go stale in your tank after 3 months and that can gum up your fuel lines and kill your engine over time (same way clogged arteries can cause a heart attack over time) so personally I recommend doing one drive once a week in hybrid mode forcing the gas engine to run. I also use ethanol free gas in my Rav Prime for the extended shelf life as it is actually hard for me to run the tank down faster than 4-6 months). That might be illegal in California since it does pollute a bit more than ethanol gas.
But that all to say, this is not a range extender, it’s still a full hybrid vehicle. The engine can seize up if you only run it a few times a year. So I always say that if the intent is to run a car with NO fuel costs, you’re better off with an EV because if you kill your engine by letting fuel go stale not running it that’s not a warranty issue and you’ll be on the hook for the cost of the repair (and that’s in the tens of thousands).
I have a video on that here: Rav4 Prime Owners: START YOUR ENGINES! Why it matters plus... ethanol free gas?
ua-cam.com/video/IwzeniZVaDY/v-deo.html
Excellent presentation. Great video!
You are simply the best ! Thank you so much for your help figuring out the real world issue of buying a hybrid suv.
Thank you for watching, and for the kind words! Glad I could help!
Right on Josh! Good arithmetic that all RAV4 hybrid owners need to see
Thank you!
I think that it's not just Gas savings, the prime has much better acceleration etc also. The power upgrade is the biggest reason to pay more imho. Not that I can comprehend spending $50K on a small, non luxury suv!
Yes, that was clearly called out at the beginning. And the speed is fine but I can tell you as an owner, there have been very few times when I actually use all of that power and it doesn’t handle terribly well when all of that power is being delivered either.
hi Josh - great video as usual. I agree the regular RAV4 hybrid is the better choice for most people. Having said that, the elephant in the room not accounted for or acknowledged in your analysis is the different trade in / resale values for each. It is reasonable to assume the prime model will have a higher resale value, all other things being equal.
Hello and thank you! Two things regarding deprecation. First, what you’re taking about is TCO or total cost of ownership which my calculations don’t get you to. I was simply looking at how much gas you could buy for the price difference between the two. We’d have to factor in a lot more to get to TCO. Second, regarding depreciation, it’s surprising but both hold their value about the same. I find that zero depreciation (or appreciation in our case) is more the case for people like us who bought with significant incentives at the lower, introductory MSRP. BUT, people who have bought at the much higher current prices are actually seeing a (2023 Rav Prime XSEs are selling for less than MSRP which means whoever traded them in got considerably less than that on trade). Rav hybrids, meanwhile, still sell for around MSRP a year or two old on the used market. There’s also a far larger market for Rav hybrids than Rav primes since a Rav hybrid can literally work for anyone but you have to have a home where you can plug in at night for the Prime.
Thank you! The video I was exactly looking for.
Bang on, Josh! Thanks for crunching the numbers. Nearly $50,000 for a loaded RAV4? Nope.
On another note, I'm starting to see more folks talking about turning their backs on Toyota trucks due to the outrageous prices for Tacomas and Tundras. Believe it or not, Nissan is slowly becoming a go-to for that kind of purchase. Toyota is losing its way and it hurts me to say that. Thanks again for posting this info.
Thank you! And that $50K people are paying isn’t even for a loaded Rav, it’s for an SE Prime just like mine! Yikes! And also, I think Nissan is making some great products these days. The Pathfinder and QX60 are terrific since they’ve still got the trusty old VQ-series V6 and a real automatic. I’m excited to see what they do with the next Murano since I assume it’ll follow that same 3.5 V6 + 9-speed auto combo. I’ll be another one who likely won’t buy another Toyota truck with the pricing and turbo engines.
Love your videos. Also this video came at the perfect time! Regret not getting this car when it was much cheaper 😩
I would love to just plug in my car and not going to the gas station. I feel like that’s luxury lol
Thank you! You still have to go to the gas station, though. The gas engine needs to be run regularly, it’s not just there for emergencies. Personally I try to use the engine when I’m on the highway and drain the tank once every 2-3 months. So you will still go to the gas station. If not going to the gas station is important, you should look into a full EV.
Also, if you did want a Prime I am starting to see them come down in price on the used market! They’re still expensive relative to the hybrid but they’re not astronomically expensive like they were before.
Great video. I love the idea of a RAV4 Prime.
Excellent analysis and great way to put the savings in context. I have seen very high dealers premiums on the Primes. They were taking high bids at one point. Toyota needs to address supply-demand through a more fair ordering system. Ford had to crack down on dealers with the Lightning and Raptor pickups at one point. I think E demand has waned since.
Yep! That’s another issue on top of the pricing in the video here. My pricing was solely based on MSRP which we know dealers add crap on top of. 🙄
Great video! Love the idea of a $10,000 gas card. Makes sense. :)
Thank you! And right!? How nice would that be.
Love this in depth analysis. Also can’t get enough of you providing your take on the numbers and what this means in the real world.
You should take the same approach for hybrid vs nonbybrid vehicle. Should buy a hybrid?
Ahahaha omg hi. Yes you should buy a hybrid! The cost difference is pretty minimal and reliability over the long term on a hybrid is better than a non-hybrid. But also for you… think about whether you may want to have a second child and if the Rav would give you enough space especially when they’re 5-10 and doing sports/hanging out with friends.
Also the hybrid is quicker than the gas 0-60, and tows more. (Might have a higher total load carrying rating too.) IMO, the hybrid gives it enough extra oomph in the 0-60 to move it from "inadequate" to "adequate", while at the same time, getting much better fuel economy. (Towing is 1500 in gas, and 1750 in hybrid. Not sure if AWD vs FWD makes a difference. I don't pay a lot of attention to that because FWD is a non-starter for my climate.)
@@joshjamescars Been there, done that with the kids. IMO, get the size that fits most of the time. No law says you have to be the vanpool for all their friends. If it is rare instances where you need to haul a bunch of kids, take two cars. Back in the day we had mini-vans for just that reason ("In case" we needed to haul all their friends), and 95% of the miles driven were with the family of 4 or fewer. After suffering through 2 piece of garbage Chrysler products (problems galore), we downsized to an Outback (which was a lot smaller back then) and used a car top carrier when we needed the extra room. So often, my wife was just driving the minivan by herself to run errands or pick up one kid. Big waste for us.
Great video. Makes soooo m😮ch sense! Thank you
Exactly. I did buy a 2021 Venza Hybrid as it was the only car on the lot. As an ultra low mileage diver, it made no sense. I saved $ 300 a year, based on Costco average price of $ 3.00 a gallon. However my state charges an extra $ 75 plate renewal fee for hybrid owners. That reduced my yearly savings to $ 225.
I just traded it on a 2024 Highlander gas turbo. Half the mpg but with significant discounts on new gas models. I did the math. Between the lower price on the gas models, and the $ 4,000 discount on the gas model, it would take me 20 years to break even with the hybrid gas savings. I do miss the no stop start feature on the hybrid. Fortunately, the Highlander has a convenient shut off next to the steering wheel. I tap it on every start.
Fast forward 10 years. Resale vale. Would you rather buy a 10 year hybrid with a 10 year old battery, or a 10 year old gas model.
This is helpful, and aligns with what I found in my car shopping spreadsheet.
For our use case, the PHEV would cost us 59.2k to buy and operate for 10 years. The HEV would cost 50.5k.
(For the insatiably curious, that figure is 35.3k for our 2023 Bolt EV and 59.7k for our 2016 CX-5.)
I love that you gave a spreadsheet! That’s EXACTLY how people need to approach any car with a plug these days.
Josh, that’s a perfect example of not spending extra money to save gas. Most people don’t understand the irony of either buying an expensive plug-in hybrid to save on fuel or trading in your perfectly fine car for a hybrid just to save on fuel. You will lose thousands on your trade just to buy a more complex vehicle. Not only will that $10,000 you spoke of pay for years of gas, it will accumulate interest just sitting in the bank. Even if it’s the current rate of 4.25 percent for savings, it’ll grow without you having to do anything. Personally I don’t see a financial benefit in owning a hybrid long term. Eventually you’ll have to replace the battery and be set back $6000 or more. That right there is all the fuel you saved. And I recently learned you have to drive a hybrid at least twice a week to keep the battery from depleting quicker. For a retiree who may not drive that often and/or is in a two-car family, that just doesn’t make much sense.
I agree with the premise here but buying and owning a hybrid long term does make sense IF you need to buy a new car because your current car is failing (or got totalled or something). In that situation, a hybrid is worth it since the premium is generally only about $1,000 on most Toyotas versus a non-hybrid.
Also, a battery change isn’t $6K, it’s more like $1-2K (unless you get ripped off by a dealer). Further, the hybrid battery warranty is 10 years or 150,000 miles on Toyota hybrids. So you’ll only pay to change the battery if it fails after that 10 years and it would be about the same cost as a new set of tires.
This is brilliant
Love you and all your vids! Thank you for doing the math for us!
Thank YOU for always watching!
@@joshjamescars When a very handsome, articulate, intelligent Asian man provides insightful information about my favorite vehicles, I tend not to miss any of your Vids 🔥🔥🔥
@@stevenscott6715I agree with this statement
Thank you for all the work you've put into this comparison . You are absolutly correct that PHEV is not worth buying unless you intent to keep it for ever, but then the time to replace that big battery will eventually get there and probably will erase all the savings you achieved. Unless battrey costs come down it's not worth a PHEV or pure electric.
Thank you! And yes, completely. Batteries do get cheaper over time as the materials and production gets cheaper but versus a basic HEV battery replacement, the PHEV battery will always be more.
Theres less maintaince . Its only oil change once or twice a year
@lile4146 There is less maintenance on EVs. PHEVs require the same maintenance as a standard hybrid or ICE vehicle.
Excellent work with your analysis between RAV4 Hybrid and Prime. The prime sure is nice, but it’s way too expensive. That’s why my aunt chose the RAV4 hybrid instead of the RAV4 Prime since the fuel economy is still very good (though if the tax credit applied like before, we would have pick that option like you did with your prime). Recently, I checked at Toyota Marin (North of San Francisco) through their smartpath website and dealer’s website, and I was shocked that every RAV4 Prime gets a little over $2000 off of MSRP though it still is expensive. I was shocked because it still is really popular in my area.
Btw, not related to this videos, what are your thoughts about the upcoming 4Runner debuting on April 9th? Also, what do you think about the facelift version of the 2025 Honda Civic Honda has teased?
Thank you! And yes I have started to see discounts on the east coast too. I think they pushed the price so high that people who want a fuel efficient hybrid will buy the Rav hybrid and people who want an EV will go and buy a Model Y which is also much cheaper. I’ve also heard from a lot of people who really wanted a Prime but backed out once they got in there and realized how expensive it would be all in.
As for the new 4Runner, I like it! The interior looks like it has a ton of cheap hard plastic but otherwise I think it’s a great update and will probably be a home run for Toyota as long as they keep the pricing somewhat reasonable.
And I absolutely love the Civic and am very much looking forward to the hybrid coming out!
I would put $10000 into S&P500. At 10% return a year, give you $10000 of free gas + $6000 extra + take back your principle $10000. And I like to buy 5 years old car. and save even more.
Yup! You could definitely do that too!
Great comparison.
Thank you!
I didn’t realize the prime back in 2021 was much cheaper. I just came back from your other video, breaking down how you basically paid only $32,000 out the door for your current 2021 model. I was looking at the 2024 prime as a next car, but realized that I would be overpaying by ALOT. The things is, I really like how the drive of the car is smoother and quieter than the hybrid, but at that price point I’m not entirely sure that it’s worth paying the $14,000 extra premium over.. versus when you got it for $32,000. If it were still that price I’d definitely get it in a heartbeat. It’s a shame Toyota raised the price so much 😢. Hopefully the new model that comes out will have a better discount hehe. Also the primes are all made in Japan, another reason I wanted to buy it. I currently have an 2005 rav4 made in Japan and still works great! I just wish the prime were $32,000(with the incentives) still 😢. You picked it up at a great time (: - also the analogy on the $10,000 could go a step further by putting it into a HYSA and locked in at 5% per year, by the tenth year you’d have more than $5000+ accrued 😮
Hello! Yeah, it’s really unfortunate that the Prime is so expensive. You can get $6,500 lease cash in some places on a Prime, and the trick to that is you lease the car from the dealer and then 3 months later, buy it out of the lease. That will save you a bit.
Also, to be fair to Toyota, the $10K we got off ours was the $7,500 federal incentive plus a $2,500 state incentive so it wasn’t them giving us that money. But it absolutely made the final price of the car much more attractive than it is now.
And finally-as expensive as it is now, considering the RX450h+ uses exactly the same drivetrain (literally exactly the same) and costs $75K, $43K for a Prime SE isn’t terrible.
@@joshjamescars LOL understandable! But you say all that with some steep discounts 😆 - about $3,500 extra versus today and also - the original msrp went up as well :( just be real man ahaha 🤣 you guys got an great deal! If it were still that price I 100% see it’s worth it, but because I don’t even have an electrical outlet like you guys, I will not be able to even charge overnight. I saw the 5 things you liked and the 5 things you disliked about the car and it’s clear that this Prime for me would be more of an luxury/impusle buy move lol. But still nevertheless I would have loved to try to go through the plug in hybrid route. I would have tried to make it work :p
Hey Josh, awesome video as usual
My dealer currently has a prime. They haven’t been able to sell at $53K.
The Lexus dealer has a NX 450+ that is used with 400 miles listed for 63K.
I definitely agree with your gas savings calculations however I’m wondering if these plug-in hybrids hold their value and depreciate even less than the hybrids what are your thoughts?
PS .. I had FOMO… lol 😅
23 Macan GTS for now ❤ love it.
Will return to Lexus/ Toyota when finished playing around 😜🫣
HAHA at your Macan! KEEP IT. Have you seen the new Macan EV? UGGO. And like I don’t see the point of a Porsche EV. But so goes the times. 😅 And yes, typically the PHEVs hold their value better but only if they’re brand new and in good condition. I think over time with mileage and age and wear they may depreciate more. I’m surprised the Prime your dealer has hasn’t sold. Although personally I would never pay $53K for a prime either LOL.
@@joshjamescars yes you knew I would end up there didn’t you lol 😀
I’ll send you some pics later.
I did see the new Macan EV I like the style of it if it was a model, but I do not like the direction Porsche is going.. the Cayman is also the last year of gas model.. 😣
I’m surprised nobody spotted either. Apparently a lady bought it and travels too much and didn’t wanna worry about plugging it in so she returned it for a hybrid.
It’s fully loaded, but that is insane paying that for a Toyota 🤣
@@joshjamescars
Anecdotally, What would you pay for a prime ?
@PostprandialTorpor Honestly? For an SE I’d pay the $31K we paid as I think that’s what it’s worth. For an XSE, maybe $36-40K.
@@joshjamescars cool cool. So I just need to take a Time Machine back to the time of the $7500 tax rebate when supply was non existent and dealers marked up $10-20k 🤣🤣🤣
Ok... Let fix this coffee and enjoy .... Bruh you ended the video so fast when I was getting ready to seat and sip...oh well let me replay 😊
Hahaha! There’s a Camry video coming sometime this month that’s probably going to be a half hour long so… next time! ;) But thanks as always for coming back and watching!!!
Completely agree with your conclusions but you missed one major factor: resale value. Purchase price is not the cost of ownership. If the Prime had significantly better resale value than the hybrid, the delta between the two in actual cost of ownership could be much smaller. For example if you keep each car 5 years and the Prime depreciates $5k and the hybrid depreciates $15k, the actual cost of ownership between the two would be the same. I don't know what the actual depreciation difference is but it's more important actually than the purchase price in this comparison.
You’re right that depreciation matters, however please note that I did not say that this was calculating the total cost of ownership, simply what one COULD do with the additional $10K price premium on the Prime. Also, depreciation is fluid and entirety dependent upon factors outside of your control. There’s no way you can make a blanket statement like “A Rav4 Prime only depreciates 5K” because it depends on how well a person treated it while they had it. Sure, if you keep it in pristine condition, never use it as a utility vehicle, keep it low mileage, and park it out of the sun. But wear and tear matters too. And then there are the things outside of your control. You could get into an accident that gets repaired and goes on the CarFax. Likewise, Toyota could release an INCREDIBLE new Rav Prime at the same price with way better specs and more availability. So you’re right that depreciation matters but it’s a wager. And again, we were not talking total cost of ownership, just purchase price.
I see your point, but buyers looking at the 2 vehicles 5 years from now that are $10k apart, will be faced with exactly the same decision, on a cost basis, as the new buyers were. Again is it worth spending $10k more? The same calculation still holds true.
love the analysis video, sub'd. For me the charging/gas was a byproduct, was predominantly wanting that 0-60 in 5.5 lol, stealth sleeper car. Everyon expects a model Y to be fast, no one expects a rav4 to pummel their sports car. But yea, doesn't make financial sense to buy it over a hybrid, unless ur want that 'stealth' performance
Yes! Such a fun, random little sleeper!
Thanks Josh, I actually just bought one and don't yet have it but I'm excited to get it soon, another question, is it possible to put a roof top tent on it, do you know?
You can but definitely go and look up the load rating for the roof. And, having anything on the roof will kill your MPG and miles to kilowatt hour economy.
Wow doing the math on a 6 year loan - 6 years interest is $2637 so now it cost 13123 for that 10,485.91 loan
so that is 182.27 extra per month on a 6 year loan- great video so thanks for the thoughts on this. Toyota loan is 7.69 now in Canada. This is on the SE models. Yes I know Toyota has been doing these for a while now but we really are in the beginning stages so can only see pricing changing in the future. It is sad in fact because to protect the world from destruction cost so much from these developers to change over. About 8000 difference to say with gas on LE so now that is like a 18000 difference for LE gas to SE prime. No SE for gas models.
Yep! I’m so glad you did the math; so many people just look at the monthly charge or whatever and don’t think about how much they’re actually paying in interest. Also, in regard to the 18,000 CAD difference from LE to SE prime it’s definitely a huge increase, but I have to say, the Rav LE hybrid, which is about $2K more I think, is a tremendous value if you’re looking for the cheapest possible fuel efficient Rav. And as mentioned in the video, I don’t think there’s enough in the Prime to fear missing out on.
its even a greater difference when insurance and taxes (purchase and property) is so much more for the prime
Yes, tax makes a big difference too depending on where you are. The insurance note is interesting. For us, insurance is quite low for the Prime (around the same as it would be for a standard hybrid) although we bundle all 3 of our cars together.
@@joshjamescars i have heard the insurance on ev's (hence probably to a lesser extence for hybrids/PHEV) is very high because if the battery pack gets damaged in an accident the car will probably be totaled.
Oh that is true of EVs but most PHEVs are much more similar to a standard hybrid in terms of insurance cost since the Prime, for example, is literally just a Rav hybrid with a slightly larger battery. But nothing like EVs where the battery pack could be $60K to replace.
My 2017 RAV4 which I purchased in Nov 2018 at 0% got totaled because of other reckless driver. I loved each & everything about that car & now insurance is paying only 21k & I’m forced to buy a new one. Can’t decide what to buy regular, hybrid or prime(way too expensive).
Oh no. So sorry to hear that. The good news is that the current Rav is a really great car. I would personally go with the hybrid as it’s not much more than a standard Rav, gets outstanding fuel economy, and is more reliable than the gas Rav (resale on hybrid Rags are crazy good too).
km in Canada Rav 4 Hybrid per 100km 5.8/6.3/6.0 where as Rav 4 prime says 5.7/6.4/6.0- I don't get the value with SE models of price difference- $10,485.91 Fuel is now 1.58 per liters or just over 7 dollars for Canadian gallon. Also think about battery life. We will all be leasing one day because of because of battery tech . Loans now or just over 7 percent. Thanks for video
And folks .... please ... Just because its a plug Rav4 doesn't mean that it's a electric vehicle so avoid to drive just on EV mode
This car is not a Tesla, at end of the day it's a Hybrid plug in gas Rav4...
In Canada, we are getting a 5000cad rebate for a plugin. Do u think that will be worth getting a plugin instead of a hybrid?
That definitely helps! In the US is that there aren’t any incentives at all, so the price you see is what you pay.
I'm just starting to look for a car and my mind is blown by the numbers I'm seeing. Luckily the loan/lease rates have dropped substantially since last fall. We were seeing 8.5% last fall and now I'm seeing 2-5%. I'm in Canada. I did look at the Prime but the wait time was crazy and I couldn't figure out how anybody could make sense of that payback. It will be interesting to see how they price the Crown Signia. That might be the one to go for. I also looked at the NX but to get a sunroof you have to buy a huge package. Up here on the PHEV it's 17.5k dollar package. On the hybrid it's 5-8.5k. LOL
It’s insane how much cars cost today! The Crown Signia is likely to be around the same price as an NX given that Canada is only getting one, fully loaded Limited trim as I understand it. We will get a lower spec XLE and then the same loaded Limited trim you all get. The engine in the Crown Signia is the dealbreaker for me, though. The finance rates you mention are pretty great, though! They’re still up between 5-8% here for excellent credit.
@@joshjamescars Well the Crown Sedan Ltd trim up here costs 54k. It's actually reasonable. That's the trim that the Signia will be up here. No Platinum trim which has the hybrid max.
I’m assuming this is without the $6500 USA LEASE rebate which, granted only makes sense if you can immediately buy it out. If so the 10k diff is about 5-6 years of gas in the hybrid based on California gas prices ($5/gal)
Yes the lease cash can be tricky because like you say, you have to buy the car out in cash immediately after leasing to make it worth it. Some states also handle taxes differently too (you have to pay again on the buyout) which can further decrease the savings, plus lease buyout fee of about $1K.
What about considering the incentives of state rebates for electric cars?
These are the calculations for me in my state at 2024 prices, but obviously fuel prices and incentives would depend on where you live.
You could get a lot of beer for 10k and wouldn’t need to leave the house
It seems that this calculation assumes 100% ev driving, when reality would be a little different. Realistically, perhaps 75% of trips are short distance (30-40 mi round trips), so the prime realizes return on that extra $10k acquisition cost at that 3/4 rate. In other words, 3k of of the 12k annual miles would require purchase of gasoline, making the energy cost savings in favor of the prime roughly $700/yr ($774 @ $3/gal, less some for ev charging) or a 14-year breakeven point. In CA where I live, breakeven for my 2020 hybrid XSE would be closer to 10 years ($4.65/gal. with avg 40mpg).
This calculation actually doesn’t take into account any driving in the Prime, it’s simply how much gas you could buy to get to parity with the Prime’s ~$10K price premium over a similarly equipped Hybrid. So you’re right, your break even is actually longer because the Prime also needs both gas. And per your calculations above, electricity isn’t always free either so your break even would have to factor in that cost as well.
should compare the hybrid xse with all tech options since the prime xse is already fully loaded.
The Prime XSE isn’t fully loaded (at least in the US). The base Prime XSE is missing the panoramic moonroof, HUD, digital rear view mirror, 360-camera, memory seats, and full SofTex seats.
I’ll either look for a pre-owned Prime or RX450H with service records from private seller for less 👍
Most definitely! Certified Rav4 Primes are actually decently priced too now.
Hey Josh, csn you tell me about the fog lights on an Rav4 Prime XSE.
I called a dealer and he said there are no fog lights on any Primes?
Is tjat true do you know?
Yes that is true. The XSE has marker lights in the bumper but no fog lights. Don’t let that worry you-since most cars have high power LED headlights these days fog lights aren’t necessary the way they used to be.
I was just thinking about this a few days ago...
Thanks 🙏🏻 I’m getting the venza
The Venza is a great choice!!
@@joshjamescars great deal to last year getting the limited
Would you get a 2025 NX 450h+ (for $60k thanks to rebate incentives) or a 2022 RX 450h (for $50k)? The cost difference is not a big issue for me cause I plan to keep it for many years.
Those are two really different vehicles. Buy the NX if you want a driving appliance (and only if you can plug in every night), but buy the RX because you want a beautiful looking, feeling, and driving luxury car that you can drive for the next 20 years with no issues.
If you like the extra power of the prime and can get it at a lower price- maybe over 5k over the regular hybrid- then get the prime. The extra power and convenience of having that big battery is worth it… just not worth 10k in my opinion.
I would agree, although due to supply and demand and the lack of incentives that’s not possible in most places.
Gas in cal is at least 5 to 5.50.so its 200 gals of gas for that state. I would save $160 a month . Would be 5 years or less to break even .
Yep! Every state/locale is different and California is an entirely different story. I love my
home state but I’d never move back.
Don't forget to add in the extra sales tax on the price difference. In my state, 9.2% is typical (by the time every county, city, etc tacks on to the State). What I've been trying to figure out is whether the comparable trim levels (SE vs SE Prime), or XSE vs XSE PRIME, have different levels of equipment. (Does the Prime SE come with a few more features than the Hybrid SE?) The Toyota web site allows you to "compare cars", but not within their own brand. I can't seem to pull up and compare like I can compare trim levels within the hybrid line. (Prime RAV 4 is a different group.) I know the Prime adds some sound insulation to the windshield and front side windows, but is there anything else? With the rebates gone for BUYING a PHEV, there is still something going on for those who lease (local dealers sites show 6500). Someone alluded to some chicanery by which you could initially lease and get the rebate, then convert to a purchase. That may or may not be an actual thing. But yeah, payback on gas alone is way off in the distance. Gas is a lot more expensive where I live, but doing your calcs show I'd be able to drive 90K miles "free" by skipping the Prime, and that does not include interest earned (easy to get a 5% MM or CD these days). Not sure what Toyota is thinking. Plus there is a mpg penalty for the Prime with the extra weight of battery, so once not on pure electric, you're taking a bit of a hit there too. (I know EPA numbers are similar, but Consumer Reports says 34 combined in the real world on the Prime. But they do gush about the Prime.) The extra quiet and 5.5 0-60 is enticing, but I just don't see how they can get 10K more for the plug-in. I watched a video on the 2025 and 2026 (lots of speculation) trying to see if the Gen 5 hybrid system (see the '25 Camry) is going to be in the '25 RAV4, and it was not known. They were suggesting that full re-do would be a '26 model and the new Prime MIGHT have 100 mile range in pure EV mode. Meanwhile, prices for all of them are bloated and it feels like the selection of '24s is dwindling to the colors I won't buy. Another angle on the decision is to just look at how much you currently spend on gas each year. If electricity was free, and you never had to use significant gas (say just to keep the tank somewhat fresh you burn 4 tanks a year), THAT would be your MAX savings. But you know electricity isn't free (it's relatively cheap where I live). And you are somewhat rolling the dice on future energy prices. At $ 4.50 a gallon, payback is quicker than your $ 3.00 example. Insurance might be a factor too, and some states hit you with a surcharge at licensing for a hybrid or PHEV to help compensate for the fact that you are buying less gas, and paying less in gas taxes used for roads. You bought yours at the right time. But yeah, I just saw a review and they were gushing about their $ 52K XSE Prime (before Sales Tax, licensing, etc.) You can probably get an entry level BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Lexus, or Acura for that.
Hello. I’m not going to be able to address all of this but the SE and XSE grades are very similar to the hybrid grades. And yes you can lease it at the dealer and then write a check for the remaining balance as soon as your account is opened with TFS.
@@joshjamescars Thanks Josh!
Your analysis of fuel costs assumes gasoline prices of $3/gal. In 2024, gasoline is $4/gal. In 2025, gasoline could cost $5/gal. I think that affects your predicted miles.
I didn’t think that I needed to explain that gas prices vary from place to place, but they do, and are based upon the price of a barrel of oil which means that prices go up AND DOWN. Our prices here in Texas have fluctuated between $2.25 and $3.75 and have stayed pretty constant over the last 6-8 years. To that end, read the pinned comment about applying whatever gas price you have in your market to the same formula and you’ll figure out the numbers for yourself.
I still dont unserstand why EV vehicles are mlre expensive consider that EV motors are less complex than an ICE.
While more complex, ICE vehicles aren’t nearly as expensive to make. Batteries (especially huge ones like are in the biggest EVs) are expensive. They’re made of things called “RARE earth materials” for a reason. Hyundai has said the price of a new battery for an Ioniq5 is more than the cost of the car itself (around $60K). Plus automakers have to recoup the tremendous cost of their R&D programs and building of all new manufacturing into the cost of the car. Most companies are losing money on their EV programs right now, so they’re going to recoup as much as they can from consumers thru the price of the vehicle as they can.
For $50k you could easily buy a new Lexus hybrid.
Yep! Exactly.
I have a Toyota Venza hybrid with the same power train as the Toyota RAV4 and I only fuel up with Premium because I know for a fact 6 years from now I won’t get a Check engine lights because my catalytic converter won’t go bad I rather spend my money on premium then have to change a CAT in the future!!!
Sorry to say, you’re wasting your own money there. Not sure where you heard that you need to run premium but that’s simply not true. The only cars that need premium are the ones that run at high-compression ratios where they NEED the increased combustion from premium. But you know once the exhaust gasses leave your engine compartment, they’re all the same whether you run premium, mid grade, or regular. There are millions of Rav hybrids and Prius hybrids that are 10+ years old that have hundreds of thousands of miles on them and have never needed a new cat converter. In fact, you’re way more likely to get yours stolen than to have to replace it due to failure.
Hi there. As a mechanical engineer who has spent her career designing engines (including for Toyota), this is unproven by any scientific, at-scale data. Like Josh says, there are some engines that do need premium but yours definitely does not. Keep the tin foil hat on if you’d like but you could be saving a ton. By the way, you know what’s far more likely to go out in your car that’s way more expensive to fix and replace? Your radar sensors, ADAS camera module, the ECU and vehicle computer, 360-cam if you have it in your Venza, and your power folding mirrors.
The Atkinson cycle engine should not use premium gas according to my Lexus technician. It performs best at 87 octane because this engine has an optimum compression ratio and will not affect power output.
@@orlandovelastegui1391 it was probably contaminants that caused the problem, not octane levels.
What? I’ve got a 20 year old Honda accord with 195k miles on it, daily commuter and only use regular octane gas and my original cat still passes California SMOG. you’ve been misinformed
I guess I don't understand the point of the math. Don't most people buy a Prime because they feel they can greatly limit their CO2 emissions as most of their driving will be electric? It's an environment purchase for them, not because it's necessarily a better vehicle. They are willing to pay a little more for that reason.
So at least to me, if that’s the aim you can get a much better pure EV for less money than the Prime. I think reducing your carbon footprint is a valid reason to buy an electrified car but I personally would go full EV to achieve that. You can get a great model 3 or model Y for far less than a Prime SE today.
@@joshjamescars I mean I agree, but most say range anxiety keeps them from going full ev. They like the gas backup.
@patrick7228 That’s why it’s important for people to do the homework and run all the simulations to really figure out what will best achieve their end goal. The “feeling” of range anxiety is generally unfounded as is the “feeling” that they’re getting a value or saving money with the Rav.
@@joshjamescars Agree again. Well said.