I follow several runners on here and this is the first specific example I've scene and answers what I've been struggling with, which is how slow should my slow runs be. They are always too fast. I've run one marathon with a target of 3:40 but hit the wall at 22 and finished at 3:48. 2025 goal is 2 marathons under 3:30 with a goal of qualifying for Boston under a 3:20 in 2026, assuming the new times don't expect a huge buffer again.
Glad the video was helpful. It seems like you’re on the right track. I think most people are guilty of doing the first half too fast. I know I am. Hopefully we’ll both be in Boston in 2026. Enjoy the process!
I recently became a VDOT Long Distance Running certified coach and I absolutely love your video😍! Above all, your many years of experience prove that it works perfectly and today I paced a race at the limit, down to the second according to the forecast😃👟🤙🏻
That's great! To me, the pacing aspect of the VDOT work is the biggest value. It's nice to have realistic pace goals for all your work and then get to race day and have some realistic expectation of what your pace should be. I see too many people that just run all out on their intervals. Not fun and not productive.
JDRF is the GOAT! I am doing my first marathon in April. I am using the same two sessions a week - but based on many, many fewer miles! I am not that accomplished! But still it's a great plan, going OK so far - but I deffo drop the bold work outs when needed!
I got this book recently to help structure my upcoming marathon block and this video was really helpful as I needed a little bit ot assistance to digest the information. Thank you!
Really helpful discussion of Daniel’s formula, how you apply it to your life and specifically how training has changed for you as a masters runner. Thank you.
Just subscribed! Thanks for this video. I'm turning 38 in a few days and at the beginning of my 4th marathon build. I'm doing the Daniels 2Q plan and love it so far. I've had the book for awhile, but have stuck to the same training plan for the first three (Boston Athletic Assoc Level 4 plan on the Boston website). The 2Qs are 26 week cycle plans, so I figured I'd start on it and then switch off if it didn't suit me. Needless to say it does and I'm staying on it.
Assuming they are public, I'll have to check out those plans on the BAA website. Thanks for the lead! Even if I'm not doing it, I like to see what other people are doing.
I'm just gonna leave this here because people always mention it. The 17 mile long run is NOT a problem because its probably a bigger training stimulus when you run your 17 miles with large sections at marathon pace than your easy paced 20 mile long run. JD's plans are about consistency and quality. Its not a plan that gradually builds up, you're in it from day 1 with double digit mileage on Q sessions and a high weekly mileage. When you run your big runs 4-6 weeks before the race, you do so on fatigued legs. So on race day, after tapering, it is completely fine to go marathon distance. I understand its a psychological thing to hit 20 miles but if it's not your first marathon then, really it shouldn't be. My personal experience is the 2Q plan has got me my best results even though I topped out my long runs at 17 miles. It prepared me so well that I ran my fastest 3 miles of the race in the last 3 miles.
Thanks Kush for sharing your experience. I suspect you're right on this but I've never tried racing one with less than a 20 miler so I can't comment based on experience- It might be psychological for me as well. But I don't discount the importance of psychology for a marathon. I have successfully run marathons (taking it pretty relaxed) with with only a 16 mile long run prior.
I like Daniels and sometimes do one of his tempo workouts but have never followed the entire plan. Here is what I struggle with….. his limit of 2:30 on long runs. I’m older now running 3:44 at Chicago this year at age 69. A 21/2 training pace run is only going to get me 16-17 miles. I did 4 or 5 20’s in this years build and I’d be really nervous about running a marathon with a 16 mile long run.
Nice job on the the run in Chicago. Yeah, You bring up an interesting point. I'm guessing that you're looking at the 56-70 mile /week 2Q plan, where that is the case. In that plan, like many others, that "long run" isn't even the longest run of the plan. The Marathon Pace and LT workouts are longer than the Long Runs- But for that plan, the longest workout is "only" 17 miles, so I can see your hesitance in wondering if that's enough of a pre-marathon effort. You might also look at the 56-70 mile 4 Week Cycle plan (pg. 252)- This one doesn't have longer straight up long runs but some of the workouts have a LOT of volume. e.g. with 4 weeks to go, the 2nd workout of the week is 4 easy(E), 10 Marathon Pace (MP), 1E, 6MP, 2E, for a total of 23 miles. This might be too much but you get the point. I think either way you could make some tweaks to adjust to your needs as is advocated in the book. Whatever you decide on, I hope you nail it!
I got the Daniels book (4th edition), but when I tried to design a plan I got wrapped around the axle on using Figure 10.2. When I searched around for some help it seems as though I’m not the only one. A video on building a plan based on his “formula” would be awesome.
I was just checking out the Figure 10.2 that you were referring to. I used that table back when I was building track workouts to help determine how long to spend in each phase of training depending on how long there was before a peak race. I don't think it's as relevant for the long-term marathon plans- at least not for me. I'll definitely consider creating a more succinct video with the sole purpose of building a plan based on the formula.
Let’s be honest, the only reason I’m close to Kipchoge is because we’re just leaving the start line. 😂 That said, it was a pretty awesome experience being in the same warmup area and corale.
Really not my strength, but if I was trying to learn more I’d probably start with something like NCSA Developing Speed. us.humankinetics.com/products/developing-speed-2nd-edition-epub. I have not read it but human kinetics usually has good stuff, though sometimes on the technical side. Good luck
The Easy Pace has a range of about a minute. I'd put recovery pace on the slow side of that range and sometimes even outside a bit if you really need to recover.
I found the workout Q sessions too complicated for me and I also use km so annoys me to enter 1.6km it just does my head in. 2nd as a 61 year old 3:05 marathon I find his interval paces too fast. My fast twitch left me years ago and do 400s more like his Threshold pace suit me better. I've used Pete Pfitzinger advanced marathon but tweak his Threshold paces.
Hi Alan, This is a really interesting point. When DRF first came out I was in my early twenties and could hold my own in a 3k (never a two mile 😉) but the prospect of running a current Marathon workout would have been daunting. 25 years later, it’s the opposite that is true- every time I see a workout that is interval or Repetition pace I get nervous. BTW, if you’re running 3:05 at 61, whatever you’re doing is working by my thinking. Amazing!
Older runner here who started later in life. Do you find the Daniels easy pace still a bit harder than easy? My HR seems to say so but not sure what to make of it.
Yes, but I, personally, never worry about my easy pace too much. I just run relaxed and listen to a book, most of the time. I'm almost always on the slow side of the Easy Pace range in the Daniels' books and often outside of it. I do try to keep in the range during Long runs.
In the 2 Quality Sessions plans, is Q1 supposed to be the long run? If so, then I'm surprised there would only be one other workout during the week. I've used Pfitzinger's Advanced Marathoning plans for my last 5 marathons since 2023. I've had pretty good success, but I feel I may have hit a plateau. I'm thinking of using the Daniel's Running Formula for my next marathon to change things up.
In some regards, the Daniels’ weeks don’t often have traditional long runs - at least not in the LSD sense. I think I gravitate towards the Daniels program in part because of the 2 Quality sessions. Getting geeked up to hammer a workout is tough and I’m not sure I can do it more than 2 times a week on a consistent basis and stay motivated year after year. The Daniels workouts have a lot of volume so I’d argue that you’re probably spending a lot of time in the faster zones even if it is just two workouts. I do like the Pfitzinger’s book as well and have used it successfully in the past. Some times it’s good to change things up too. If those are your two choices, I’d say it’s hard to go wrong. Good luck!
The programs don’t use HR directly. I, however, will use HR as a gauge to make adjustments to my pace. E.g. On Saturday my LT session was not getting my HR up to what I would expect for this type of workout ( for me) so for following weeks I’d adjust my LT pace.
What Training plans have you had success with?
I follow several runners on here and this is the first specific example I've scene and answers what I've been struggling with, which is how slow should my slow runs be. They are always too fast. I've run one marathon with a target of 3:40 but hit the wall at 22 and finished at 3:48. 2025 goal is 2 marathons under 3:30 with a goal of qualifying for Boston under a 3:20 in 2026, assuming the new times don't expect a huge buffer again.
Glad the video was helpful. It seems like you’re on the right track. I think most people are guilty of doing the first half too fast. I know I am. Hopefully we’ll both be in Boston in 2026. Enjoy the process!
I recently became a VDOT Long Distance Running certified coach and I absolutely love your video😍! Above all, your many years of experience prove that it works perfectly and today I paced a race at the limit, down to the second according to the forecast😃👟🤙🏻
That's great! To me, the pacing aspect of the VDOT work is the biggest value. It's nice to have realistic pace goals for all your work and then get to race day and have some realistic expectation of what your pace should be. I see too many people that just run all out on their intervals. Not fun and not productive.
JDRF is the GOAT! I am doing my first marathon in April. I am using the same two sessions a week - but based on many, many fewer miles! I am not that accomplished! But still it's a great plan, going OK so far - but I deffo drop the bold work outs when needed!
That’s great. All of the 2Q programs are rigorous. You’ll be in great shape and not injured from running so miles😅
Thank you Steven for starting this channel and sharing all your running knowledge! Look forward to watching your past and future videos.
You're too kind, Ben! I appreciate you.
I got this book recently to help structure my upcoming marathon block and this video was really helpful as I needed a little bit ot assistance to digest the information. Thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
Really helpful discussion of Daniel’s formula, how you apply it to your life and specifically how training has changed for you as a masters runner. Thank you.
Thanks Jeffrey! Happy running.
Just subscribed! Thanks for this video. I'm turning 38 in a few days and at the beginning of my 4th marathon build. I'm doing the Daniels 2Q plan and love it so far. I've had the book for awhile, but have stuck to the same training plan for the first three (Boston Athletic Assoc Level 4 plan on the Boston website). The 2Qs are 26 week cycle plans, so I figured I'd start on it and then switch off if it didn't suit me. Needless to say it does and I'm staying on it.
Assuming they are public, I'll have to check out those plans on the BAA website. Thanks for the lead! Even if I'm not doing it, I like to see what other people are doing.
I'm just gonna leave this here because people always mention it. The 17 mile long run is NOT a problem because its probably a bigger training stimulus when you run your 17 miles with large sections at marathon pace than your easy paced 20 mile long run. JD's plans are about consistency and quality. Its not a plan that gradually builds up, you're in it from day 1 with double digit mileage on Q sessions and a high weekly mileage. When you run your big runs 4-6 weeks before the race, you do so on fatigued legs. So on race day, after tapering, it is completely fine to go marathon distance. I understand its a psychological thing to hit 20 miles but if it's not your first marathon then, really it shouldn't be. My personal experience is the 2Q plan has got me my best results even though I topped out my long runs at 17 miles. It prepared me so well that I ran my fastest 3 miles of the race in the last 3 miles.
Thanks Kush for sharing your experience. I suspect you're right on this but I've never tried racing one with less than a 20 miler so I can't comment based on experience- It might be psychological for me as well. But I don't discount the importance of psychology for a marathon. I have successfully run marathons (taking it pretty relaxed) with with only a 16 mile long run prior.
I like Daniels and sometimes do one of his tempo workouts but have never followed the entire plan. Here is what I struggle with….. his limit of 2:30 on long runs. I’m older now running 3:44 at Chicago this year at age 69. A 21/2 training pace run is only going to get me 16-17 miles. I did 4 or 5 20’s in this years build and I’d be really nervous about running a marathon with a 16 mile long run.
Nice job on the the run in Chicago. Yeah, You bring up an interesting point. I'm guessing that you're looking at the 56-70 mile /week 2Q plan, where that is the case. In that plan, like many others, that "long run" isn't even the longest run of the plan. The Marathon Pace and LT workouts are longer than the Long Runs- But for that plan, the longest workout is "only" 17 miles, so I can see your hesitance in wondering if that's enough of a pre-marathon effort. You might also look at the 56-70 mile 4 Week Cycle plan (pg. 252)- This one doesn't have longer straight up long runs but some of the workouts have a LOT of volume. e.g. with 4 weeks to go, the 2nd workout of the week is 4 easy(E), 10 Marathon Pace (MP), 1E, 6MP, 2E, for a total of 23 miles. This might be too much but you get the point. I think either way you could make some tweaks to adjust to your needs as is advocated in the book. Whatever you decide on, I hope you nail it!
I got the Daniels book (4th edition), but when I tried to design a plan I got wrapped around the axle on using Figure 10.2. When I searched around for some help it seems as though I’m not the only one. A video on building a plan based on his “formula” would be awesome.
I was just checking out the Figure 10.2 that you were referring to. I used that table back when I was building track workouts to help determine how long to spend in each phase of training depending on how long there was before a peak race. I don't think it's as relevant for the long-term marathon plans- at least not for me. I'll definitely consider creating a more succinct video with the sole purpose of building a plan based on the formula.
@ cool. Thanks!
Being even close to Kipchoge in a race is extremely impressive
Let’s be honest, the only reason I’m close to Kipchoge is because we’re just leaving the start line. 😂 That said, it was a pretty awesome experience being in the same warmup area and corale.
any good resources for sprinting distances? 400m 100m 200?
Really not my strength, but if I was trying to learn more I’d probably start with something like NCSA Developing Speed. us.humankinetics.com/products/developing-speed-2nd-edition-epub. I have not read it but human kinetics usually has good stuff, though sometimes on the technical side. Good luck
I'm a big fan of the 4 week cycle. I enjoy running on hills every other week so I swap a T work for long run on hills instead.
That sounds like a good way to get in some hills on tired legs.
Thank you. I will order the book. Is "easy" pace the same as what other folks call "recovery" pace?
The Easy Pace has a range of about a minute. I'd put recovery pace on the slow side of that range and sometimes even outside a bit if you really need to recover.
I found the workout Q sessions too complicated for me and I also use km so annoys me to enter 1.6km it just does my head in. 2nd as a 61 year old 3:05 marathon I find his interval paces too fast. My fast twitch left me years ago and do 400s more like his Threshold pace suit me better. I've used Pete Pfitzinger advanced marathon but tweak his Threshold paces.
Hi Alan, This is a really interesting point. When DRF first came out I was in my early twenties and could hold my own in a 3k (never a two mile 😉) but the prospect of running a current Marathon workout would have been daunting. 25 years later, it’s the opposite that is true- every time I see a workout that is interval or Repetition pace I get nervous. BTW, if you’re running 3:05 at 61, whatever you’re doing is working by my thinking. Amazing!
Older runner here who started later in life. Do you find the Daniels easy pace still a bit harder than easy? My HR seems to say so but not sure what to make of it.
Yes, but I, personally, never worry about my easy pace too much. I just run relaxed and listen to a book, most of the time. I'm almost always on the slow side of the Easy Pace range in the Daniels' books and often outside of it. I do try to keep in the range during Long runs.
In the 2 Quality Sessions plans, is Q1 supposed to be the long run? If so, then I'm surprised there would only be one other workout during the week. I've used Pfitzinger's Advanced Marathoning plans for my last 5 marathons since 2023. I've had pretty good success, but I feel I may have hit a plateau. I'm thinking of using the Daniel's Running Formula for my next marathon to change things up.
In some regards, the Daniels’ weeks don’t often have traditional long runs - at least not in the LSD sense. I think I gravitate towards the Daniels program in part because of the 2 Quality sessions. Getting geeked up to hammer a workout is tough and I’m not sure I can do it more than 2 times a week on a consistent basis and stay motivated year after year. The Daniels workouts have a lot of volume so I’d argue that you’re probably spending a lot of time in the faster zones even if it is just two workouts.
I do like the Pfitzinger’s book as well and have used it successfully in the past. Some times it’s good to change things up too. If those are your two choices, I’d say it’s hard to go wrong. Good luck!
This approach does not count for HR? Training by pace only?
The programs don’t use HR directly. I, however, will use HR as a gauge to make adjustments to my pace. E.g. On Saturday my LT session was not getting my HR up to what I would expect for this type of workout ( for me) so for following weeks I’d adjust my LT pace.