Just to clarify, this was not made to offend anyone or to make me pass as the objective voice, it's just to give you another perspective on coinflips. You can still disagree, I'll love you nonetheless
To be fair, the videos before this one WERE on the more aggro and objcetive side despite some of the absurdity of some reviews. The negative reviews that give the reasons why the game isn't worth recommending ARE valid despite what one of the best FH players thinks. You just can't expect everybody to play a relatively unfun game for many as thoroughly as many of you content creators do, let alone long enough to gain a full understanding of every single tiny mechanic and detail in the game. Correcting misinformation is one thing (this video is better about it), the way you went about it prior to this video was more questionable and less helpful than anything. You came off as just some asshat.
@@maverickrx8 Conclusion? Just ignore it and move on with your life, as what you said it implement some sort of "not everyone like what you like" which is fine really if you don't, what i advice ya to ignore whatever this guy said and move on that all. If you want to listen to what he said sure as well its your choice nobody stopping you Just like the coin flip itself its your choice to decide the next action/scenario that will happens
I pick Heads because both. First it was due to Enter spam. Then I watched a streamer get nothing but pain when he picked Tails. ...So now I continue to pick Heads.
@@ZidaneTribal93 play as cahara, get 2 soul stones from the dark priests + save scum for a chest, learn en'garde, use it against seymur while talking, steal scroll of the longswordsman, and run, then open the door with leg sweep. Or recruit another character, get the crude sword from lizard man and necromancy on skeleton and attack the door until you deal 800 dmg.
My third run of this game I failed ALL of my coin flips in the overworld. No matter if I switched it up, the game really wanted me to fail. I eventually died way later on in the dungeons, I somehow got further than I did with my previous two runs that won coin flips lmao
Coin Flipping was *the* mechanic that impressed me the most while playing Termina. Such a simple mechanic added SO much to the atmosphere of the game. It's such a potent ingredient to the Fear part of Fear and Hunger, I can't imagine what the game would be without it. My absolute favorite coinflip moment was when I first entered the Orphanage, and was walking down an empty hallway... and then BOOM. Heads or Tails prompt out of nowhere. There were no visible enemies around, and I felt so much panic instantly... no other game has prompted such a raw feeling with such a simple mechanic. A+ implementation.
When my sister and I first played fear and hunger, we flipped an actual coin on our desk to decide which side to bet on. It was surprisingly accurate lol.
@@deeznoots6241 Tails always fails. I'll be real, every single time a streamer I was watching rolled tails for the important stuff, it would fail. *Always.*
The Coin Toss is fantastic as a Sadistic Mechanic. The 50/50 chance could exist by itself without input from the player, most games have hidden rng elements, but by having the player be aware of it and "guess", it hurts even more than just not getting anything. It is like someone pouring lemon on your fresh wound and blaming you for it. The Lucky Coin is also great, as it definitely can make it easier to deal with this randomness, but it being limited and having to decide "when" to use it is a job on its own, not to mention it hurts extra hard if both coin toss fails, and if both coin toss are a success, it can feel like you wasted the lucky coin.
@@ad480pThis type of game design can be practiced easily as a dungeon master, too. It's not just a video game thing, and it's also not just a bad thing -- keep in mind that games are a media of entertainment, and entertainment is highly psychological. Great game designers read up on psychology just as much as they do on the technical aspects of development.
I just started the video, but I think coin flips create a lot of tension which is super needed in an rpgmaker horror game. Almost every coin flip mechanic could have been based on rng that happens off screen, but being forced to pick a side and watch what happens creates tense decisions where there wouldn’t be normally. I’ll admit that I think the coin flips on bookshelves, chests, and armor in the first game don’t add much, but that’s exactly why we don’t see them anymore in termina. Coin flips for major attacks, holes in the floor, etc. are only positive additions for the atmosphere these games are trying to create. Everyone who complains doesn’t realize that the moments coin flips are used in wouldn’t be any less random without them. If anything, they’d be more random since you won’t be able to use lucky coins to increase your chances
On the topic of saving. Even if you miss the coin flip once you have already fought whatever wakes up you, if you try to sleep again it will say that your adrenaline is running high. You just need to walk for like 15 tiles so the bed is out of your screen and you can return and try to sleep again. Also a thing I don't like about coin toss on bookselves is that after winning you can get a book you already had, and that is annoying, this is fixed in Termina tho
my first experience with coin flip attacks taught me that sometimes you'll have to pray to rngesus, chopping off the right arm taught the importance of chopping off the right parts and limb loss taught me the game is fucking bullshit if you're unprepared
The problem is that there is no way to tell when the coin flip attack actually occurs. Seymore only says guard when you have a bad feeling, but your character never gets a bad feeling in battle (Weird since they get bad feelings in the overworld dozens of times). The guards and night lurch have no tell on their coin flips, you'll only learn about their pattern via trial and error (or looking up the wiki). Some enemies have tells but they're just mostly generic movements that doesn't scream "You better guard this turn", like hounds barking or the lord of the flies twitching their arm or priest chanting, real life dogs bark all the time, and how is anyone supposed to differentiate them from other generic texts such as guard's stinger pulsating or maneba's tentacles swinging around which do nothing?
Yep, exactly one of the reasons I could never enjoy this game even though I wanted to. You can either read the wiki or do trial and error for 5 hours. And I don't think that's good game design. It's not a game wanting to be difficult but to waste your time.
The only problem I had with the coin flip was the game crashed when I picked heads when looting a chest. I thought that was like, an actual punishment. lol
I study game design and the only thing we really learn there is playtest, playtest and playtest. Yes there are hints and signs that point players in the right direction like Seymor but all of that is irrelevant when a playtester says "I don't get it". Game designers have insane level of control, a good one with enough feedback can turn any game into something all players will get. The only problem with my argument is that this isn't a playtester issue but a genre one, you can fine tune a game all you want a FIFA player won't enjoy fear & hunger because that's just not the experience they want. These people probably kept bashing their head against the wall because other games let you get away with that, so they leave a negative review when they finally give up. Just be careful with "the game told you so" argument because there's a few ways to tell something and most of them players will either ignore or forget. It is funny to point and laugh at these people though.
I think the more actual issue is that the coin flip attacks are telegraphed very poorly. I have completed the game and only learnt by the community that the attacks are supposed to hit at the end of the 2nd turn and every 3th thereafter. I thought it happened randomly, so essentially you had the choice of guarding every turn and slowly get whittled down or try fighting and then get hit by the 50/50 attack. If the enemy had a tell before they did the coin attack i assure you that nobody would complain.
@@JennyTheNerdBat SMT in general is more of a buff-debuff fest/brainrot than RNGfest if you resist light & dark, or if you don't run Yoshitsune as a cheat, or if you don't play Nocturne
One thing I dislike is how difficult it is to get specific character endings. it is so difficult or confusing (enki or mercenary ending for example) to get interesting endings. I personally don’t think having to use a wiki is a good way to experience unique endings in fear and hunger.
While I think they are supposed to be a challenge, I agree that at least for D'arce and Ragnvaldr, what you are supposed to do precisely isn't clear at all
@@frapollo94 Honestly I thought the D'arce one wasn't too terrible, except maybe the spell piece in the library. I'm more in the camp of not liking Cahara's cuz I still have no clue how to read the maps I'm gonna be real, I just looked up where the location is lmao
Regarding the wiki thing, I don't disagree entirely but like that's like the only way I can play these games at all 💔 I don't have the patience to actually learn most strats when failing is 9/10 times a game over. Note that I'm not saying this a a negative, I understand that to many this is an appeal of the game, just not to me, but I circumvent that by using the wiki whenever I feel I need to
I will be honest Concept of coin flips as decision making if you find anything in a heavily dark fantasy styled game that is to challenge you in many ways: Wonderful idea, absolutely cruel and perfect mechanic for occassion Playing with that system tho, uhhhhhh... Pain, not even the pleasant feeling in suffering. Just meh pain for me
To be honest I dont understand why coin flips are the most controversial aspect (unless its related to saving which I kinda get). The coin flip attacks were never a problem when I played because I realized that they get telegraphed the round before and you just block them, every time I lost to it was because I gambled and I knew I gambled. The most controversial aspect of the game for me by far was dash being basically integral to the proper experience and it is hidden behind choosing the correct starting options. You could go through a dozen hours of suffering without realizing that youve been missing out the whole time. I think there is a very clear reason it wasnt a part of the sequel, I think its just very poor game design to include it the way that it was implemented. It basically meant that new players were unknowingly choosing between a couple measly consumable items and literally a PERMANENT MOVESPEED BUFF. In a game where you dont benefit from fighting enemies and your limited resources are being drained in real time, being able to avoid those fights in the first place and getting everywhere quicker is invaluable... And its basically gated behind an obtuse personality test at the very start of the game.
@@frapollo94Still, it'd be fine if there was a clear choice screen for your starting getup rather than an obscure test that doesn't really let you know what you'll get.
@@Evenvagolor Normally, people attack enemy's arms to receive less damage since the enemy can't attack with a dead arm. And when you try beat one of Sergal's arm, he exit from the battle and appear in another part of the map.
Recontextualizing the coin flip from "you die or nothing happens" to "you get a chance to cheat death" is pretty cool. I think it would have been easier to understand if there were no lucky coins and the whole coin flip happened quietly in the background. Then the T3 attack would look like a hard-hitting move that misses half of the time. Still, I don't know if it would be easy to figure out that guarding cancels heavy attacks. It's not like Black Souls where evading perfect-dodges all physical attacks and is clearly spelled out. Maybe if F&H easy mode has a hints system? Instead of "The guard is advancing", it would change to "The guard is advancing, you should Guard!" and "Because you didn't guard, the enemy swings at you", that sort of stuff. It would eliminate the new player coin flip problem, but at the same time it would detract from the game's oppressive nature. In a normal rpg, a companion would guide you through a set of tutorial combat encounters where each mechanic would be explained and then tested for.
Frappolo94 starts to upload a video Heads or Tails Fail: You watch the video but your attention span makes you click off and watch 1257 Tiktoks -30 mind. Success: You watch the video thoroughly +5 max HP and Mind.
The coin flip is genius game design. The way it asks you for heads or tails is basically the game asking you to make peace because you’re fucked. That moment of dread when the dialogue pops up, and you have to watch the iconic coinflip animation; it’s amazing.
Agreed. Though i believe coin flips shouldn't appear in beds. Or it should be a guaranteed save on the 3rd coin flip. I hate having the ability to save like an entire hour of progress being either 50% you do an action that is free in ANY other rpg, or get to fight an enemy that could possibly end that 1 hour of progress (especially when you have no healing items or have debuffs), and when you have to (specifically in the jail cell) kill every enemy in the room and constantly sleep in one bed then sleep in another and do that like 5 times getting tails instead of heads and when you finally give in and play tails, you get heads. That SUCKS. Otherwise, the coin system is good imo
The major problem with coinflip attack is how obtuse and late is teached. You use the mechanic before finding Seymour. Edit: I mean, one of the things about how "obtuse" 5he game is is because it tried to experiment in a stablished genere and people went to it with lots of confusion.
I honestly think being still on the surface level isn't late in the game, if it was somewhere like cavedweller village I'd agree with you. And I think experimenting with a genre isn't a negative thing
@@frapollo94 I don't mean experimenting as a bad thing. I talk about it because how people play with expectations. Putting the coinflip mechanic without context, explaining the guard thing after the first enemy who uses coinflip and other quirks of the game made the game difficult for new players. I love F&H despite the quirkiness and clunkiness of the game. But sometimes its bad explained.
The problem with games like this is that the main mechanics are stated not clearly. For example from the beginning on the creation of character you just have almost 0 info about what gives what, and playing the game without run is for sure worser you can't argue with it. But it was fine if you have more chances to error but on top of it you actually get dunked by some strange bullshit that happens in battle when you find new enemy and go on another cycle. So in the end it's just unclear parts of game with moking mechanic of throw a coin. Like can someone make a mod with game without lucky coins and say how the game feels? Tldr: You trying to play a game when game just don't give you all rules. Do you having fun? Head or tails on having fun/10
Yeah there are better strategies than others, like...in all videogames. And yes, what made fear and hunger special is exactly this lack of info, giving the player the liberty to experiment and investigate more all the mechanics and make your own journal (or be a wiki player) Your choice
@@frapollo94 Well the game for sure doesn't new player friendly!(Like if Fear And Hunger in name doesn't give it away) I just give a explanation why people can for sure get their arses handled to them. In my opinion if the game doesn't have coin flip mechanic it was easier and friendlier for new player.(This contradicts the main reason for game for sure)
tbh I feel like coinflips are at their worst early game where you just try to reroll over and over again until you have a real solid foundation for a playthrough, like having to do the coinflip on the skeleton as the dark priest just wastes my time, I'm just gonna spend another 30 min trying to get an explosive vial I guess
The funny thing is, despite being a rather observant gamer I still did not understand how to read the telegraphing on coin flip attacks because I had wrong assumptions about what the flavour text related to them means. AND STILL didn't let that deter me from further attempts at beating the game. Meaning that EVEN if you're dense enough, you can overcome that issue with a mix of good tactics, perseverance and patience!
I unironically love the coin flip mechanic. For a game that is a strategic horror game, it’s a perfect embodiment of tension and release. But I totally understand why people don’t like it or even hate it. FaH goes out of it’s way to be somewhat cryptic and avant-garde with its mechanics, and realizing that saving a game file is tied to the coin flip mechanic would be an enraging experience for those who truly don’t know what they are in for. I think Termina handles the explanation of mechanics better with the combat manual. There is a common tradition in many games to over explain mechanics, and hand hold a player through the possible options. I don’t think FaH is for everyone, and I wouldn’t want it to be. It’s a polarizing decision to make in this design space. FaH demands the player to stick with it, embrace failure, and experiment with trial and error. Not a lot of people are going to sick with it, especially with a RPG maker game riddled with game breaking bugs.
I like this comment a lot. I'm on team "coin-flip is the best mechanic and without it the game would suck" and I still agree that as a player, I *hate* it hahaha. Because of this, the coin-flip is a good micro-example of how this game connects with me, personally? This is going to be a LONG thought-piece; feel free it skip lol. - - - - - Fear and Hunger is a game that I cannot -- in good conscious -- recommend to anyone. Partly for mechanics, mostly for content. It feels like it's a game that my friends would have to pick up on their own accord, with the freedom to drop it immediately with no social pressure. The RNG mechanics are FAR from the most revolting thing they'll be confronted with in the dungeon; this game is really not for everyone. Not in a "gatekeepy" sense, but in a "you have to process difficult subject material in a certain way to enjoy this game, and that way is neither good nor bad -- it just is." Most games -- even very violent games -- tiptoe gingerly around sexual violence. Fear and Hunger does not. Most games -- even very scary games -- draw some lines as to what might depicted on screen. Fear and Hunger does not. Most games -- even very dark games -- offer a form of resolution, or happy ending. Fear and Hunger (arguably) does not. It is a game that does not do what most games do, and for that alone, it cannot be for most people. I think the majority of us that enjoy the game are the sort that are deeply affected by the horrors of the dungeon (else we would get bored and leave), but find a peculiar comfort in it? "The God of Fear and Hunger acknowledges our suffering," so to speak. And I don't think you can force that on people. You have to enter the dungeon willingly, and be the sort of person that finds something pleasurable in its pain. So too, the coin-flip. I do not enjoy it -- nor do I particularly enjoy many of the things the game depicts. On a technical level, if you asked me if I wanted to remove some of the cutscenes depicting sexual violence, my first answer is "yes????" But in truth... I don't know if I would? Fear and Hunger connects so viscerally BECAUSE it ignores the invisible safety net most games have, and its mechanics connect because it ignores the invisible walls that usually hide the RNG. It feels less artificial, in a way I don't even know if I can articulate. It's "raw." It acknowledges *something.* I don't particularly like the coin-flip. And that's why I love it. It's absolutely essential to making Fear and Hunger what it is, and I couldn't have it any other way.
as good as your arguments are does not change the fact the game has a horrible habit of discouraging new players with something that is unironically bullshit like yeah yeah i get your points all are very good, the fact that even the perception of your death being some sort of whim of probability is something people hate and you cannot control that and no matter what you say and that you display all things you can do to avoid or mitigate the problem, people just hates the coinflips and so it will always be
Yeah I didn't make this video with the intention of being like "YOU SUCK, I AM THE ONLY ONE RIGHT" but just as a way to give a different perspective, then you can do what you want with it
@@frapollo94 yeah i know i only wanted to see if i can provide an argument that would made you go "fair enough" heheh stay corageous and satiated my guy
tbh i just think that making saving coin tosses on the developer's end is a bit insane. like its a cool idea but i feel like the way it exists in here is an absolute nightmare to code. probably just me though
@@frapollo94 i don't think i want to, to be quite frank. i have already heard things that make me fearful of what lies in the under belly of this game.
13:00 also i don't know if it's only in the rooms with the safe saves but the text show "this room feels somewhat safe" i think it's a pretty good hint about the fact that the bed is safe
Also when there’s a text showing up between enemy’s attacks it’s kind of a hint to guard, like when “the stinger is pulsating” it’s a coin toss attack next turn
Tbh I think there are would be less complaints about this if the game bothered to explain that you can actually block coinflip attacks. I only learned this while playing Termina. Block is useless in 99% jrpgs, it's natural to assume that it's the same here
i haven’t played funger yet, but the coin flip is one of the parts that fascinates me the most!! i love how it can make the player feel, and i think it’s a wonderful addition considering the game’s goals haha
This is probably off topic, and contributes to fear and hunger in no way, but I just wanted to say, Frapollo, your accent is so adorable. I don't know if anyone has said this before or not, but you just sound cute.
the worst feeling is when u learn steal but the marriage is bugged so u can neither use it or learn it any more ... and all this in my perfect run what a shame
In combat, they're get-out-of-jail-free-card if you mess up, but from a new player perspective they're losing "just" because they lost a coin toss, rather than because the coin toss was initiated due to them blundering, so I get where they're coming from. The game doesn't have a recap of any kind to let the new player understand why they just died and why there was a coin toss to begin with, so it's hardly surprising that people who aren't accustomed to this kind of game would hate this mechanic and think the game is RNG based.
to be fair, since f&h1 doesn't spoonfeed mechanics to you unlike termina, the only way to figure out 'just guard' is by getting lucky and having it trigger in a fight guarding randomly
I love the coin flip mechanic except on the RNG chests. It's infuriating to find a fairly rare chest, only to be told It's empty. The coin flip attacks or coin flip traps in the overworld are really cool and original.
Ngl, if you look at this from the design perspective then the coin flips like these are fucking awful as a game mechanic, but in the case of Fear & Hunger they are oddly fitting and it (arguably) is one of the main things that made Fear & hunger popular (together with the limb & dismemberment system)
Are they really bad tho? In terms of loot a lot of games have loot randomized, no one really complains on it. Random encounters, well in RPG games they are standard thing, not many people complain on it. In a lot of games attacks as well as dodges are also randomized, but here attacks always follow pattern. I'd say that the fact that you throw the coin instead of game just doing 50%/50% itself is kinda fun to look at as it gives you some small choice, but it gets better because you can choose to increase your odds in certain situations. Imo that is better than everything working on random events which you can do nothing about. I feel like people ONLY ever complain on RNG when game is hard. No one complains about random loot in skyrim, even when sometimes random loot is required to start or finish some quests. I wish so many times I could have back up coinflip like that in some situations in other games like Dark Souls or Darkest Dungeon. Because in fight coinflips pretty much happen only if you already fail to dodge
from a design perspective, the coin flips are a way to visualize random events and allow the player to stack the odds to their favour when they see it fit. RNG isn't inherently bad, so to have RNG as a game mechanic like this is actually very good - it's the essence of RPGs, rolling dice and getting lucky (or unlucky) to create tension with every action. One could say it's actually fantastic at doing its job, which is why you see similar mechanics everywhere.
As someone who knows nothing about this game but the pain The fact that most coin flips are avoidable makes it a lot better, also when it comes to loot, most loot is RNG based so… Kinda wanna get this game now and descend into madness
People consider you a gate keeper? You are literally telling them how to open the gate and they think you are keeping them out? Those people are not worth considering in any action you take.
Personally I have only played Fear anf Hunger 2, and got filtered after feeling directionless and overwhelmed. While the coinflip seems like absolute bullshit, which I totally agreed with, you actually presented some pretty solid arguments as to why these coinflips arent as bad as they seem, mainly regarding the fights. The coinflips are very thematically appropriate. It adds tension, and makes the game really feel as if the world is oppresive and you are helpless (which I feel like it's the intent of the developpers). But from a gameplay point of view, it's unfun, unfair, and bad difficulty. If you play by the conflip, you sign the contract that there's a 50% chance you lose or suffer greatly. So that's actually a pretty good argument you presented; avoid the coinflip. Guard or destroy the limb that will be used by the enemy. I especially like guarding here, it's the safest option, and attacking the limb is high risk high reward. I feel like a lot of those reviews, understandeably, didnt know what to expect. You dont really think about guarding, much less the limb. The game makes itself seem as if the coinflip determines everything, whether you die or not. Like, even if you guard, you'll probably recieve plenty of damage or even die. And the limb is quite unintuitive, like you'd expect the enemy to just use the other limb, or his entire body. So that's something the game could communicate better. Avoid the coinflip if you dont want to take your chances, and here's how. The game is pretty silent about it, and I feel like it's totally fair to be frustrated and confused at that. The saving part basically the same; work around it, clear the area. Here I feel like it's the same issue; the game may be too quiet about these obstacles. That guy said 'saves are determined by luck' and they are, until you take control and clear the area. The game doesnt really say that so clearly. And the chests, well, you either get lucky or you dont. The consequences of losing the 50/50 are tame (except that book lol). So, all in all, im very impressed with your reasoning. It doesnt seem that luck determined anymore. If you follow some protocols (guarding, destroying limbs, clearing areas...) you can overcome the randomness. It's just that you arent communicated that so well. The reading reviews series comes off as very cultlike and arrogant, but seeing the way you expressed yourself here, you actually offered tips and provided help, which I can appreciate as a huge noob🙂 I think you adressed the mechanic pretty well, you have my like👍
i think the coin toss is purely for psychological reasons. you win, it brings slight happiness. you lose, it brings frustration. but it makes every time you win an accomplishment, a sense of hope. i think that's fitting for a game like fear & hunger. i mean, it's not joy & rainbows, after all.
I feel like the easiest solution would be to just add a text box that would provide info for each of the four main commands (the other 3 are pretty self explanatory but just for the sake of cohesion), and guard could be something like "many rely on luck to survive, while others find the right time to put up their Guard" something that doesnt outright tell the player but you can still figure it out Run could even be something like "agile adventurers may opt to Run from battles they cannot win" to hint at the chance of escaping being tied to agility
The coin flip system (and all fear and hunger in a sense) is a really interesting case for me as a UX designer. Players have a tendancy to go quick and use their previous game knowledge to play which results in them not reading and being dumb haha. This game punish that so hard and I love it! Though I will agreed that the lucky coin should have a remember prompt in the lower left on top of the lucky coin icon that show SHIFT. I think it will help new player a little. The saving coin flip is the most annoying simply because you can lost a lot of progress and can be a rage quit moment but I think you explain it really well. If they find the bed in the basement, the first save is free. So no excuse there. Also thumbs up for BabyPollo94!
I really liked this breakdown of the coinflips and I hadn't considered viewing them as a 50/50 chance to get saved from your own mistake. This is just my theory on why the coinflips feel bad when they fail: If there was no coinflip you wouldn't have anything to blame for your loss other than not guarding, with the coinflip added you get to blame bad luck, taking all responsibility away from your own mistake of not hitting guard. People don't like to think they made a mistake but blaming the cointoss for their mistake will likely make them feel as if their choices didn't matter at all. I still like the cointoss mechanic, great video
Interestingly, I think you raise a really good point about the "atmosphere/theme" of Fear and Hunger, in relationship to it being a sort of symbol or metaphor for survival. I think in both real life and video games, humans do not like to blame ourselves for our mistakes. Instead, we get mad that whatever odd-probability there was that we would be fine anyway... didn't happen. If I don't prepare for a natural disaster, am I going to be mad at myself for doing nothing and gambling on being okay? Or am I going to be mad that the supply truck was empty when I got to it? If I put no money aside to prepare for emergencies, am I going to be mad at myself for spending too much, or mad that probability was not in my favor and I developed cancer? I wonder how many things in life I gamble on without even realizing that I'm gambling, or recognizing that I had the power to avoid that gamble in the first place.
People would call the coinflip the worst mechanic but to be honest you can just skip the coinflip if you have perfect guard, also you can just choose not to sleep in a bed and find a scroll and make yourself op, also I recommend playing the game on fear and hunger difficulty cuz playing it on the hardest difficulty seems like a stupid idea for a new player
I guess you could say that the best way to always succeed a coin flip attack is to not let it happen. I can't remember that many coin flip attacks that you can't disable the enemy from using. And others can be guarded against once you figure out which turn they occur on.
Let's see. The combat flip I agree, it's a hail mary. The save... eh, 50/50. I understand the why, but sometimes you just want to save because you have to stop playing. The loot flip on the other hand... as you said, it's there to make you feel bad. If the game has already decided what's going to happen, I prefer for the game to just do that, instead of trying to fool you.
honestly the coin flip isn't just a last resort or tension builder, I feel that it's kinda necessary for the design of this game especially for saving, as it forces players to learn how to get around the random elements and use every trick up their sleeve to guarantee success. If saving wasn't gated by a coin flip, you could just save before every enemy encounter until you win through RNG. By having guaranteed saving be a reward for clearing all the enemies it demonstrates that the enemy encounters are puzzles intended to be overcome by the player, and that they have to work to find the scraps of ways to succeed in this environment. Also, by subverting many aspects of the typical RPGmaker game, it further creates a hopeless feeling among first time players, and teaches them that they have to push through that and be creative in order to succeed, which is an important life lesson. Like you said the randomness is going to happen anyway; the game is doing you a favour by letting you know, just in a very mean way
Yes!!!! I wrote a very long comment mostly focused on how the coin-flip adds to the theming of the game and how it teaches newer players how to win, but these are all very good points too. Fear and Hunger is really much more of a roguelike than it is a linear rpg. (Which, had I played more than a single roguelike before becoming aware of Fear and Hunger, might have been something I realized quicker, but oh well hahaha.) It is fundamental to the very fabric of what the game is. Remove it, and you're not removing just a single mechanic. You're making a major change to how players play, and actually probably making your game far less enjoyable by teaching them all the wrong things.
Спасибо конору(dawg), за то что познакомил меня с твоим каналом. До этого я и правда думал что f&h -нечестная jrpg. Я был прав, игрок НЕЧЕСТНО силён и может пройти все с легкостью, надо только разобратся
Easy, coin flip before the coin flip, then press enter on the opposite side than the one your coin landed on, you just made your odds become a 75-25 (I failed math class)
I am not sure if this sentence aplies here but here it goes Edgies who who die from the coinflip attack after going only for the head on a guard and then complain about how the game is hard are experiencing something called reap what you sow
Frap I have been a long time follower and your videos and discord were fundamental to me getting access to the different possible maps of the game (before they were made publicly available on the wiki). Your equipment and quality of editing has come a long way and it feels great to see the game and your channel doing so well. You are THE F&H1. Wishing you an abundance of pinecone pigs m'lard.
In other hard games bosses can have insta kill moves, here you at least got 50% which you can increase to 75% to dodge the instakill move which you didn't prepare for in advance (guarding)
Honestly the coinflips are a big reason WHY I became so attracted to this series lol. It's such a proudly unfair mechanic that just _clicks_ with me in just the right way.
"You know what date is on this channel? November 2020, it's been travelling over 3 years to get here. And now it's here and it's either subscribed or unsubscribed" -Anton Chigurh Probably
Crow Mauler: You just survived my special attack. Now dont put that coin in your pocket, otherwise it will mix in with other coins and become another generic coin.....which it is.
I still find it funny that you just die if you failed the coin flip while reading the necronomicon. I feel like thats niro's troll but then again you can get a random gro goroth spell from it. Imagine having black orb at the start with 0 affinity with gro goroth
didn't watch the video yet, and I fell in love with this mechanic of a 50/50, it's just adds immersion of luck in a game where if you obtain certain item, you can get some advantage but you shouldn't really depend on that, but instead on knowledge of the characters, builds, enviroments, enemies, and do a proper planification depending on what you've already compiled, it's just amazing.
It just shows how far the hand holding of modern games has gone; without an hour long tutorial, a map polluted with markers, and a way point to follow, a large group of people are going to be lost
I can agree to a certain degree. I think those aspects are good in general, but it has made people expect to be told how to play the game instead of learning how to play themselves.
While I do agree to an extent. People will always to stupid (including me) in one way pr another when it comes to games. Like the amount of People I have seen, who were in their second or third hour of playing the game, not getting that attacking the guards cleaver is the best opener to that fight is mind boogling. Like People just sometimes need detailed instructions. I get that this Is just the type of game Funger is but I know many people that won't touch games like this simply because they don't have the time to throw themselves against a wall For 3 hours (Outside help not included of course)
I think the coin flip mechanic is great in combat, its use in Termina being even better with clear coin flip set up moves and having multiple answers like building for a specific damage type. Its use on chests and bookshelves devolves into a time-wasting mechanic with little interaction outside of burning a resource to have an increased chance at an RNG roll. While the overall difficulty would go down, I think it's worth it for the sake of game flow to remove the coin flip entirely or have a bad coin flip RNG pool with things ranging from negative effects to mediocre items. *Spoilers* During my solo Marcoh kill everyone day one morning run I cut out almost all RNG for my route using steal, pinecone pig, and Marcoh not losing Quick Jabs with no arms. In my winning run I lost almost all chest coin flips but this was meaningless because of the Marcoh build making the rolls a waste of time and causing a less varied build. I don't see what's interesting about the negative effect being an empty chest 99% of the time I don't think it adds to the experience. Funger Facts: *You can steal Tanaka's life savings *Frogs bow to no one
@@frapollo94 its not a necessary part of the puzzle though, its just an extra step, the game is not friendly to most players, and thats the point of the game, but people who dont understand the mechanics are valid, even dark souls had a proper tutorial to the games mechanics, but things like lucky voin being hidden behind some item text wont click with most people, most people expect a core game mechanic to have some form of instruction
I always thought that coin flips were funger's spin on the whole RPG trope of an enemy charging up a attack you would have to block or else take heavy damage
@@splatoonaleks5667 which you could achieve by just having text describing a big attack, it would also potentially limit bugs like the ones frapollo mentioned
I hear frappolo say once that one day he will be able to play the game without looking. When he said in the video that his "first blind gameplay" i thought it was that lol. But i found cute hearing his first gameplay.
Going through this entire comment section at this point and responding excitedly to all the other coin-flip lovers, but YES!! This is the mechanic that first made the game's philosophy click into place for me. I actually think removing it would make far too many players try to play it like a traditional rpg, and we might not even be having this conversation today, because a lot of people who love Fear and Hunger might have never learned to play it the way the dev intended and bounced off
I really like your argument for the coin flips on chests and the like: considering most of the other pickups are random as well, the coinflip is actually a BUFF to your chances, since you can choose to use a lucky coin.
While I disagree on the bed since I find it a bit tedious and I dislike more rng on loot that already rng I actually fully agree with you on the enemy coin flip. The fact that you can just cancel it out with guarding makes for intrearing decisions on if you want to defend yourself or risk it for the kill.
I can safely say the coin flips in Fear and Hunger don't scare me, because I played a coin flipped based deck in Pokemon tcg. Trying to beat a consistent deck with coin flips is way more scary
Just to clarify, this was not made to offend anyone or to make me pass as the objective voice, it's just to give you another perspective on coinflips. You can still disagree, I'll love you nonetheless
kinda late but you are very hot!(from irl stream)
The real new gods where the random loot, bones, and sleep we lost along the way.
I wasn't having an issue (30 years gaming intuition) but this is really well explained as always 👏great video
To be fair, the videos before this one WERE on the more aggro and objcetive side despite some of the absurdity of some reviews. The negative reviews that give the reasons why the game isn't worth recommending ARE valid despite what one of the best FH players thinks.
You just can't expect everybody to play a relatively unfun game for many as thoroughly as many of you content creators do, let alone long enough to gain a full understanding of every single tiny mechanic and detail in the game.
Correcting misinformation is one thing (this video is better about it), the way you went about it prior to this video was more questionable and less helpful than anything. You came off as just some asshat.
@@maverickrx8 Conclusion? Just ignore it and move on with your life, as what you said it implement some sort of "not everyone like what you like" which is fine really if you don't, what i advice ya to ignore whatever this guy said and move on that all. If you want to listen to what he said sure as well its your choice nobody stopping you Just like the coin flip itself its your choice to decide the next action/scenario that will happens
You pick Heads because you have faith, I pick Heads because I spam Enter.
We're not the same.
I pick Heads because both. First it was due to Enter spam. Then I watched a streamer get nothing but pain when he picked Tails.
...So now I continue to pick Heads.
A yes, 99% of the head choosers lefts before the big win
I chose tails once, I died irl and my wife left and people Fortnite dance on my grave.
I pick Tails, because may Gro-Goroth smite my enemies.
flipping a coin to see wether or not I should flip a coin
How did it go?
@@frapollo94 im proud of you for getting so much subscribers
@@frapollo94 I got tails, can't flip a coin now, hold on a second..
@@Methinks168 have you tried flipping another coin to see if you could flip the coin again?
Guard
Coinflip haters when tey see crow mauler (there's no coinflip you just die):
Die? *Lmfao's in iron mask and miasma skeleton*
@@dr.consumerock6798 *lmao's in en'garde and white angel soul* *
*Red vial +purple vial gang*
@@dr.consumerock6798 How to get Miasma before you fight Crow Mauler?
@@ZidaneTribal93 play as cahara, get 2 soul stones from the dark priests + save scum for a chest, learn en'garde, use it against seymur while talking, steal scroll of the longswordsman, and run, then open the door with leg sweep.
Or recruit another character, get the crude sword from lizard man and necromancy on skeleton and attack the door until you deal 800 dmg.
Connor practically went insane saying tails never fails tails never fails only to then fail for the 20th time
He actually switched to heads in one of his vid
"TAILS NEVER FAILS"
>Failed over 70% of coinflips in termina 🤣
I actually have gone tails only and won 60% of like 35 coin flips for 3 save files, tails never fails indeed
@@darkshark3906for me it's heads never fail. Literally 70% of coinflips are heads
My third run of this game I failed ALL of my coin flips in the overworld. No matter if I switched it up, the game really wanted me to fail.
I eventually died way later on in the dungeons, I somehow got further than I did with my previous two runs that won coin flips lmao
Coin Flipping was *the* mechanic that impressed me the most while playing Termina. Such a simple mechanic added SO much to the atmosphere of the game. It's such a potent ingredient to the Fear part of Fear and Hunger, I can't imagine what the game would be without it.
My absolute favorite coinflip moment was when I first entered the Orphanage, and was walking down an empty hallway... and then BOOM. Heads or Tails prompt out of nowhere. There were no visible enemies around, and I felt so much panic instantly... no other game has prompted such a raw feeling with such a simple mechanic. A+ implementation.
When my sister and I first played fear and hunger, we flipped an actual coin on our desk to decide which side to bet on. It was surprisingly accurate lol.
I mean, isn't that coin on the desk literally an analog procedure to the one in the game?
@@bigmonkey1254 🤓
@@bigmonkey1254 Not exactly
Clearly whoever complains about the coin flip mechanic has never had their two-face arc IRL
Or they've never had to experience CHANCE TIME!
You either die a Daan or live long enough to become the Pocketcat
As someone whos going through the arc i cant get enough of probability its so 🎉
@@RahnonymousYou either die a Captain Rudimer or live long enough to become the Crow Mauler
RNG? yeah, it's always heads 100% of the time exactly 50% of the time!
But Tails never fails
@@deeznoots6241 Tails always fails. I'll be real, every single time a streamer I was watching rolled tails for the important stuff, it would fail. *Always.*
@@deeznoots6241aa but heads is the best
Its heads 25% of the time or 50% of the time if you flip two coins (in game)
The Coin Toss is fantastic as a Sadistic Mechanic. The 50/50 chance could exist by itself without input from the player, most games have hidden rng elements, but by having the player be aware of it and "guess", it hurts even more than just not getting anything. It is like someone pouring lemon on your fresh wound and blaming you for it. The Lucky Coin is also great, as it definitely can make it easier to deal with this randomness, but it being limited and having to decide "when" to use it is a job on its own, not to mention it hurts extra hard if both coin toss fails, and if both coin toss are a success, it can feel like you wasted the lucky coin.
I love pain
Ohhh, never even thought about this aspect of the game's design! Thank you so much for enlightening me!
@@ad480pThis type of game design can be practiced easily as a dungeon master, too. It's not just a video game thing, and it's also not just a bad thing -- keep in mind that games are a media of entertainment, and entertainment is highly psychological. Great game designers read up on psychology just as much as they do on the technical aspects of development.
I just started the video, but I think coin flips create a lot of tension which is super needed in an rpgmaker horror game. Almost every coin flip mechanic could have been based on rng that happens off screen, but being forced to pick a side and watch what happens creates tense decisions where there wouldn’t be normally. I’ll admit that I think the coin flips on bookshelves, chests, and armor in the first game don’t add much, but that’s exactly why we don’t see them anymore in termina. Coin flips for major attacks, holes in the floor, etc. are only positive additions for the atmosphere these games are trying to create. Everyone who complains doesn’t realize that the moments coin flips are used in wouldn’t be any less random without them. If anything, they’d be more random since you won’t be able to use lucky coins to increase your chances
I’m also biased because I love gambling
makes the game feel like a ttrpg.
the old gods as the dm saying... "make a luck roll."
@@remixtheidiot5771 that's it, really. Simplified RNG management with coins you can stack, as opposed to dice rolls with bonuses and advantage.
On the topic of saving. Even if you miss the coin flip once you have already fought whatever wakes up you, if you try to sleep again it will say that your adrenaline is running high. You just need to walk for like 15 tiles so the bed is out of your screen and you can return and try to sleep again. Also a thing I don't like about coin toss on bookselves is that after winning you can get a book you already had, and that is annoying, this is fixed in Termina tho
Yea it doesn't apply to all the books but it's true you can get 3 alchemillia vol 3
Source: the game hates me
me on my average standard difficulty run in the dungeon section be like when i wanna save cuz its 3am and i wanna sleep.
Oh, wait, beds don't become completely unusable if you miss the coinflip
Why didn't i care to check that
my first experience with coin flip attacks taught me that sometimes you'll have to pray to rngesus, chopping off the right arm taught the importance of chopping off the right parts and limb loss taught me the game is fucking bullshit if you're unprepared
Wise words
I think it has an unparalleled effect for newer players
The psychological despair inflicted when prompted with “Heads or tails. Call it.”
How cute watching baby frapollo so clueless and innocent, who would've thought him becoming the biggest content creator for this game?
The problem is that there is no way to tell when the coin flip attack actually occurs. Seymore only says guard when you have a bad feeling, but your character never gets a bad feeling in battle (Weird since they get bad feelings in the overworld dozens of times). The guards and night lurch have no tell on their coin flips, you'll only learn about their pattern via trial and error (or looking up the wiki). Some enemies have tells but they're just mostly generic movements that doesn't scream "You better guard this turn", like hounds barking or the lord of the flies twitching their arm or priest chanting, real life dogs bark all the time, and how is anyone supposed to differentiate them from other generic texts such as guard's stinger pulsating or maneba's tentacles swinging around which do nothing?
Trial and error, it's part of the core gameplay of this game, it's not something everyone likes ofc, but isn't inherently bad
Yep, exactly one of the reasons I could never enjoy this game even though I wanted to. You can either read the wiki or do trial and error for 5 hours. And I don't think that's good game design. It's not a game wanting to be difficult but to waste your time.
The only problem I had with the coin flip was the game crashed when I picked heads when looting a chest. I thought that was like, an actual punishment. lol
lmao imagine, that would be even more cruel
All-Mer did not let you slip with that coin flip lmao
I study game design and the only thing we really learn there is playtest, playtest and playtest. Yes there are hints and signs that point players in the right direction like Seymor but all of that is irrelevant when a playtester says "I don't get it". Game designers have insane level of control, a good one with enough feedback can turn any game into something all players will get.
The only problem with my argument is that this isn't a playtester issue but a genre one, you can fine tune a game all you want a FIFA player won't enjoy fear & hunger because that's just not the experience they want. These people probably kept bashing their head against the wall because other games let you get away with that, so they leave a negative review when they finally give up.
Just be careful with "the game told you so" argument because there's a few ways to tell something and most of them players will either ignore or forget. It is funny to point and laugh at these people though.
I agree on mostly everything you said, just to clarify this video wasn't done to point and laugh tho, check the pinned comment
I think the more actual issue is that the coin flip attacks are telegraphed very poorly. I have completed the game and only learnt by the community that the attacks are supposed to hit at the end of the 2nd turn and every 3th thereafter. I thought it happened randomly, so essentially you had the choice of guarding every turn and slowly get whittled down or try fighting and then get hit by the 50/50 attack. If the enemy had a tell before they did the coin attack i assure you that nobody would complain.
@@MrGraae-dg5kmaren't they telegraphed the turn before they happen?
@@MrGraae-dg5km But the enemies tell before they did the coin attack. They write in text that they are preparing something.
Nope, not in the first game@@KsavirResh
If I had a nickel for every time newbies thought a grimdark turn-based game franchise was just a mindless RNGfest, I'd have two nickels.
Would the other be darkest dungeon?
They forgot to remind themselves that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer
Darkest Dungeon? Library of Ruina? Shin Megami Tensei?
@@JennyTheNerdBat SMT is dark fantasy?
I thought it was just a slightly edgier persona
@@JennyTheNerdBat SMT in general is more of a buff-debuff fest/brainrot than RNGfest if you resist light & dark, or if you don't run Yoshitsune as a cheat, or if you don't play Nocturne
One thing I dislike is how difficult it is to get specific character endings. it is so difficult or confusing (enki or mercenary ending for example) to get interesting endings. I personally don’t think having to use a wiki is a good way to experience unique endings in fear and hunger.
While I think they are supposed to be a challenge, I agree that at least for D'arce and Ragnvaldr, what you are supposed to do precisely isn't clear at all
@@frapollo94 Honestly I thought the D'arce one wasn't too terrible, except maybe the spell piece in the library. I'm more in the camp of not liking Cahara's cuz I still have no clue how to read the maps I'm gonna be real, I just looked up where the location is lmao
Regarding the wiki thing, I don't disagree entirely but like that's like the only way I can play these games at all 💔
I don't have the patience to actually learn most strats when failing is 9/10 times a game over. Note that I'm not saying this a a negative, I understand that to many this is an appeal of the game, just not to me, but I circumvent that by using the wiki whenever I feel I need to
Coins in ultrakill: ❤️🥰🥵
Coins in funger: 💀
Finnish people just love coins I guess
@@thegammalemon Too bad there is no coins in Noita.
@@thegammalemon I just love chance for things that don't effect my quality of life. Gambling is fun
Guess who showed up to the party!
I will be honest
Concept of coin flips as decision making if you find anything in a heavily dark fantasy styled game that is to challenge you in many ways:
Wonderful idea, absolutely cruel and perfect mechanic for occassion
Playing with that system tho, uhhhhhh...
Pain, not even the pleasant feeling in suffering. Just meh pain for me
To be honest I dont understand why coin flips are the most controversial aspect (unless its related to saving which I kinda get). The coin flip attacks were never a problem when I played because I realized that they get telegraphed the round before and you just block them, every time I lost to it was because I gambled and I knew I gambled.
The most controversial aspect of the game for me by far was dash being basically integral to the proper experience and it is hidden behind choosing the correct starting options. You could go through a dozen hours of suffering without realizing that youve been missing out the whole time. I think there is a very clear reason it wasnt a part of the sequel, I think its just very poor game design to include it the way that it was implemented. It basically meant that new players were unknowingly choosing between a couple measly consumable items and literally a PERMANENT MOVESPEED BUFF. In a game where you dont benefit from fighting enemies and your limited resources are being drained in real time, being able to avoid those fights in the first place and getting everywhere quicker is invaluable... And its basically gated behind an obtuse personality test at the very start of the game.
Fun fact: in the first full releases of termina there was NO DASH
@@frapollo94Still, it'd be fine if there was a clear choice screen for your starting getup rather than an obscure test that doesn't really let you know what you'll get.
Frapollo gives his thoughts on the coin-flip mechanic:
[HEADS]
[TAILS]
Tbh orange should add more rng mechanics just to spite these people
He did something similar with the sergal in termina, so maybe...
That just makes it even more shit?
@@frapollo94what did he do?
@@Evenvagolor Normally, people attack enemy's arms to receive less damage since the enemy can't attack with a dead arm. And when you try beat one of Sergal's arm, he exit from the battle and appear in another part of the map.
@@Trick_iOSeven more? “A game primarily about dungeon crawling in an unfair world is occasionally unfair in a literal way, oh no”!
When you realize this mechanic is technecially in every videogame known to man, Fear and Hunger just rubs it in your face, especially when you fail.
Indeed even opening crates is a hidden coinflip cuz you have an small chance of getting nothing
It's more of a dice roll to be honest, not a 50/50 coin flip
Recontextualizing the coin flip from "you die or nothing happens" to "you get a chance to cheat death" is pretty cool. I think it would have been easier to understand if there were no lucky coins and the whole coin flip happened quietly in the background. Then the T3 attack would look like a hard-hitting move that misses half of the time. Still, I don't know if it would be easy to figure out that guarding cancels heavy attacks. It's not like Black Souls where evading perfect-dodges all physical attacks and is clearly spelled out.
Maybe if F&H easy mode has a hints system? Instead of "The guard is advancing", it would change to "The guard is advancing, you should Guard!" and "Because you didn't guard, the enemy swings at you", that sort of stuff. It would eliminate the new player coin flip problem, but at the same time it would detract from the game's oppressive nature. In a normal rpg, a companion would guide you through a set of tutorial combat encounters where each mechanic would be explained and then tested for.
Frappolo94 starts to upload a video
Heads or Tails
Fail: You watch the video but your attention span makes you click off and watch 1257 Tiktoks -30 mind.
Success: You watch the video thoroughly +5 max HP and Mind.
tails never fails! I'll use a lucky coin just in case...
*flips two heads
well fu-!!!
@@remixtheidiot5771unhappily enough that has happened to me with the priests in termina
@@burntcrumbs has happened to me multiple times in the first game. old gods dread how many more it'll happen when i get to termina...
The coin flip is genius game design. The way it asks you for heads or tails is basically the game asking you to make peace because you’re fucked. That moment of dread when the dialogue pops up, and you have to watch the iconic coinflip animation; it’s amazing.
......
Agreed. Though i believe coin flips shouldn't appear in beds. Or it should be a guaranteed save on the 3rd coin flip. I hate having the ability to save like an entire hour of progress being either 50% you do an action that is free in ANY other rpg, or get to fight an enemy that could possibly end that 1 hour of progress (especially when you have no healing items or have debuffs), and when you have to (specifically in the jail cell) kill every enemy in the room and constantly sleep in one bed then sleep in another and do that like 5 times getting tails instead of heads and when you finally give in and play tails, you get heads. That SUCKS.
Otherwise, the coin system is good imo
The virgin Fear & Hunger's RNG vs the giga-chad YuGiOh! Forbidden Memories's RNG
PFFF IF THESE FILTHY CASUALS GOT THE TRIPLE BEUD SWEEP I THINK THEY WOULD CHANGE THEIR MIND
Remember, 99% of Fear and Hunger players choose tails right before it's finally heads.
The major problem with coinflip attack is how obtuse and late is teached. You use the mechanic before finding Seymour.
Edit: I mean, one of the things about how "obtuse" 5he game is is because it tried to experiment in a stablished genere and people went to it with lots of confusion.
I honestly think being still on the surface level isn't late in the game, if it was somewhere like cavedweller village I'd agree with you.
And I think experimenting with a genre isn't a negative thing
@@frapollo94 I don't mean experimenting as a bad thing. I talk about it because how people play with expectations.
Putting the coinflip mechanic without context, explaining the guard thing after the first enemy who uses coinflip and other quirks of the game made the game difficult for new players.
I love F&H despite the quirkiness and clunkiness of the game. But sometimes its bad explained.
I just got an invitation from my dream university and i though the day couldn't get any better, but then i see Frapollo94 upload and get proven wrong
GOOD JOB FOR YOUR UNIVERSITY
The problem with games like this is that the main mechanics are stated not clearly. For example from the beginning on the creation of character you just have almost 0 info about what gives what, and playing the game without run is for sure worser you can't argue with it. But it was fine if you have more chances to error but on top of it you actually get dunked by some strange bullshit that happens in battle when you find new enemy and go on another cycle. So in the end it's just unclear parts of game with moking mechanic of throw a coin. Like can someone make a mod with game without lucky coins and say how the game feels?
Tldr: You trying to play a game when game just don't give you all rules. Do you having fun? Head or tails on having fun/10
Yeah there are better strategies than others, like...in all videogames.
And yes, what made fear and hunger special is exactly this lack of info, giving the player the liberty to experiment and investigate more all the mechanics and make your own journal (or be a wiki player)
Your choice
@@frapollo94 Well the game for sure doesn't new player friendly!(Like if Fear And Hunger in name doesn't give it away) I just give a explanation why people can for sure get their arses handled to them. In my opinion if the game doesn't have coin flip mechanic it was easier and friendlier for new player.(This contradicts the main reason for game for sure)
tbh I feel like coinflips are at their worst early game where you just try to reroll over and over again until you have a real solid foundation for a playthrough, like having to do the coinflip on the skeleton as the dark priest just wastes my time, I'm just gonna spend another 30 min trying to get an explosive vial I guess
The funny thing is, despite being a rather observant gamer I still did not understand how to read the telegraphing on coin flip attacks because I had wrong assumptions about what the flavour text related to them means. AND STILL didn't let that deter me from further attempts at beating the game. Meaning that EVEN if you're dense enough, you can overcome that issue with a mix of good tactics, perseverance and patience!
I unironically love the coin flip mechanic. For a game that is a strategic horror game, it’s a perfect embodiment of tension and release.
But I totally understand why people don’t like it or even hate it. FaH goes out of it’s way to be somewhat cryptic and avant-garde with its mechanics, and realizing that saving a game file is tied to the coin flip mechanic would be an enraging experience for those who truly don’t know what they are in for.
I think Termina handles the explanation of mechanics better with the combat manual. There is a common tradition in many games to over explain mechanics, and hand hold a player through the possible options.
I don’t think FaH is for everyone, and I wouldn’t want it to be. It’s a polarizing decision to make in this design space.
FaH demands the player to stick with it, embrace failure, and experiment with trial and error. Not a lot of people are going to sick with it, especially with a RPG maker game riddled with game breaking bugs.
I like this comment a lot. I'm on team "coin-flip is the best mechanic and without it the game would suck" and I still agree that as a player, I *hate* it hahaha.
Because of this, the coin-flip is a good micro-example of how this game connects with me, personally? This is going to be a LONG thought-piece; feel free it skip lol.
- - - - -
Fear and Hunger is a game that I cannot -- in good conscious -- recommend to anyone. Partly for mechanics, mostly for content. It feels like it's a game that my friends would have to pick up on their own accord, with the freedom to drop it immediately with no social pressure. The RNG mechanics are FAR from the most revolting thing they'll be confronted with in the dungeon; this game is really not for everyone. Not in a "gatekeepy" sense, but in a "you have to process difficult subject material in a certain way to enjoy this game, and that way is neither good nor bad -- it just is."
Most games -- even very violent games -- tiptoe gingerly around sexual violence.
Fear and Hunger does not.
Most games -- even very scary games -- draw some lines as to what might depicted on screen.
Fear and Hunger does not.
Most games -- even very dark games -- offer a form of resolution, or happy ending.
Fear and Hunger (arguably) does not.
It is a game that does not do what most games do, and for that alone, it cannot be for most people. I think the majority of us that enjoy the game are the sort that are deeply affected by the horrors of the dungeon (else we would get bored and leave), but find a peculiar comfort in it? "The God of Fear and Hunger acknowledges our suffering," so to speak. And I don't think you can force that on people. You have to enter the dungeon willingly, and be the sort of person that finds something pleasurable in its pain.
So too, the coin-flip. I do not enjoy it -- nor do I particularly enjoy many of the things the game depicts. On a technical level, if you asked me if I wanted to remove some of the cutscenes depicting sexual violence, my first answer is "yes????"
But in truth... I don't know if I would? Fear and Hunger connects so viscerally BECAUSE it ignores the invisible safety net most games have, and its mechanics connect because it ignores the invisible walls that usually hide the RNG. It feels less artificial, in a way I don't even know if I can articulate. It's "raw." It acknowledges *something.*
I don't particularly like the coin-flip. And that's why I love it. It's absolutely essential to making Fear and Hunger what it is, and I couldn't have it any other way.
as good as your arguments are does not change the fact the game has a horrible habit of discouraging new players with something that is unironically bullshit
like yeah yeah i get your points all are very good, the fact that even the perception of your death being some sort of whim of probability is something people hate and you cannot control that and no matter what you say and that you display all things you can do to avoid or mitigate the problem, people just hates the coinflips and so it will always be
Yeah I didn't make this video with the intention of being like "YOU SUCK, I AM THE ONLY ONE RIGHT" but just as a way to give a different perspective, then you can do what you want with it
@@frapollo94 yeah i know i only wanted to see if i can provide an argument that would made you go "fair enough" heheh
stay corageous and satiated my guy
Just for the algo because you make me fell in love with such a disturbing and beautiful game. thanks so much for your work
Thanks to you for the support!
Love your videos, you got me into playing F&H after Super Eyepatch Wolf's video
Thanks!
tbh i just think that making saving coin tosses on the developer's end is a bit insane. like its a cool idea but i feel like the way it exists in here is an absolute nightmare to code. probably just me though
Oh you didn't see the rest of the code...
@@frapollo94 i don't think i want to, to be quite frank. i have already heard things that make me fearful of what lies in the under belly of this game.
13:00 also i don't know if it's only in the rooms with the safe saves but the text show "this room feels somewhat safe" i think it's a pretty good hint about the fact that the bed is safe
Everytime in Finland there is random chance to do a mental coinflip of *small talk*
You non-Finns wont understand it 😔
In fact I don't understand :(
Also when there’s a text showing up between enemy’s attacks it’s kind of a hint to guard, like when “the stinger is pulsating” it’s a coin toss attack next turn
Except some text doesn't signal that attack and it is nearly impossible to tell without knowing. Some coinflip attacks don't have text at all.
Tbh I think there are would be less complaints about this if the game bothered to explain that you can actually block coinflip attacks. I only learned this while playing Termina. Block is useless in 99% jrpgs, it's natural to assume that it's the same here
The game does with seymor
@@frapollo94 Yeah, after watching the video I remeber talking with him, but never making a connection. Probably a skill issue on my part tho
@@НиколайШабанов-к2ь not totally, in the video I say it's understandable that maybe you don't Connect the things
i haven’t played funger yet, but the coin flip is one of the parts that fascinates me the most!! i love how it can make the player feel, and i think it’s a wonderful addition considering the game’s goals haha
This is probably off topic, and contributes to fear and hunger in no way, but I just wanted to say, Frapollo, your accent is so adorable. I don't know if anyone has said this before or not, but you just sound cute.
Awwwww thank you so much!
Tanyaaa you're cuteeee ❤
@@cartonriley oh..--- okay, thank you :D
@@tanyaalam3006🎉❤
W rizz
the worst feeling is when u learn steal but the marriage is bugged so u can neither use it or learn it any more ... and all this in my perfect run what a shame
In combat, they're get-out-of-jail-free-card if you mess up, but from a new player perspective they're losing "just" because they lost a coin toss, rather than because the coin toss was initiated due to them blundering, so I get where they're coming from. The game doesn't have a recap of any kind to let the new player understand why they just died and why there was a coin toss to begin with, so it's hardly surprising that people who aren't accustomed to this kind of game would hate this mechanic and think the game is RNG based.
to be fair, since f&h1 doesn't spoonfeed mechanics to you unlike termina, the only way to figure out 'just guard' is by getting lucky and having it trigger in a fight guarding randomly
But ser seymor
I love the coin flip mechanic except on the RNG chests. It's infuriating to find a fairly rare chest, only to be told It's empty.
The coin flip attacks or coin flip traps in the overworld are really cool and original.
I think in that case we can find some middle ground at least
Ngl, if you look at this from the design perspective then the coin flips like these are fucking awful as a game mechanic, but in the case of Fear & Hunger they are oddly fitting and it (arguably) is one of the main things that made Fear & hunger popular (together with the limb & dismemberment system)
Are they really bad tho? In terms of loot a lot of games have loot randomized, no one really complains on it. Random encounters, well in RPG games they are standard thing, not many people complain on it. In a lot of games attacks as well as dodges are also randomized, but here attacks always follow pattern. I'd say that the fact that you throw the coin instead of game just doing 50%/50% itself is kinda fun to look at as it gives you some small choice, but it gets better because you can choose to increase your odds in certain situations. Imo that is better than everything working on random events which you can do nothing about. I feel like people ONLY ever complain on RNG when game is hard. No one complains about random loot in skyrim, even when sometimes random loot is required to start or finish some quests.
I wish so many times I could have back up coinflip like that in some situations in other games like Dark Souls or Darkest Dungeon. Because in fight coinflips pretty much happen only if you already fail to dodge
from a design perspective, the coin flips are a way to visualize random events and allow the player to stack the odds to their favour when they see it fit.
RNG isn't inherently bad, so to have RNG as a game mechanic like this is actually very good - it's the essence of RPGs, rolling dice and getting lucky (or unlucky) to create tension with every action.
One could say it's actually fantastic at doing its job, which is why you see similar mechanics everywhere.
You should do a coinflip every 5 minutes that when you lose crashes the game to desktop
could be a new challenge idea, if someone makes a mod for it
As someone who knows nothing about this game but the pain
The fact that most coin flips are avoidable makes it a lot better, also when it comes to loot, most loot is RNG based so…
Kinda wanna get this game now and descend into madness
People consider you a gate keeper? You are literally telling them how to open the gate and they think you are keeping them out? Those people are not worth considering in any action you take.
Personally I have only played Fear anf Hunger 2, and got filtered after feeling directionless and overwhelmed.
While the coinflip seems like absolute bullshit, which I totally agreed with, you actually presented some pretty solid arguments as to why these coinflips arent as bad as they seem, mainly regarding the fights.
The coinflips are very thematically appropriate. It adds tension, and makes the game really feel as if the world is oppresive and you are helpless (which I feel like it's the intent of the developpers). But from a gameplay point of view, it's unfun, unfair, and bad difficulty. If you play by the conflip, you sign the contract that there's a 50% chance you lose or suffer greatly. So that's actually a pretty good argument you presented; avoid the coinflip. Guard or destroy the limb that will be used by the enemy. I especially like guarding here, it's the safest option, and attacking the limb is high risk high reward.
I feel like a lot of those reviews, understandeably, didnt know what to expect. You dont really think about guarding, much less the limb. The game makes itself seem as if the coinflip determines everything, whether you die or not. Like, even if you guard, you'll probably recieve plenty of damage or even die. And the limb is quite unintuitive, like you'd expect the enemy to just use the other limb, or his entire body.
So that's something the game could communicate better. Avoid the coinflip if you dont want to take your chances, and here's how. The game is pretty silent about it, and I feel like it's totally fair to be frustrated and confused at that.
The saving part basically the same; work around it, clear the area. Here I feel like it's the same issue; the game may be too quiet about these obstacles. That guy said 'saves are determined by luck' and they are, until you take control and clear the area. The game doesnt really say that so clearly.
And the chests, well, you either get lucky or you dont. The consequences of losing the 50/50 are tame (except that book lol).
So, all in all, im very impressed with your reasoning. It doesnt seem that luck determined anymore. If you follow some protocols (guarding, destroying limbs, clearing areas...) you can overcome the randomness. It's just that you arent communicated that so well.
The reading reviews series comes off as very cultlike and arrogant, but seeing the way you expressed yourself here, you actually offered tips and provided help, which I can appreciate as a huge noob🙂
I think you adressed the mechanic pretty well, you have my like👍
Here's what's gonna happen Mr Frapollo. I'm gonna flip a coin, you guess correctly I watch the video, pick wrong and I walk. Call it.
I GUARD THE COINFLIP
@@frapollo94 Fuck. See you in 18 minutes.
Edit: Damn, that was a good video.
@@frapollo94 "whenever you get a bad feeling, Guard. Its better to be safe than sorry"
-Ser Seymor
i think the coin toss is purely for psychological reasons. you win, it brings slight happiness. you lose, it brings frustration. but it makes every time you win an accomplishment, a sense of hope. i think that's fitting for a game like fear & hunger. i mean, it's not joy & rainbows, after all.
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Wow wasn't expecting the first comment to be generic
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Angry controversial reply
That one random reply that adds nothing to the conversation
Supportive reply
I feel like the easiest solution would be to just add a text box that would provide info for each of the four main commands (the other 3 are pretty self explanatory but just for the sake of cohesion), and guard could be something like "many rely on luck to survive, while others find the right time to put up their Guard" something that doesnt outright tell the player but you can still figure it out
Run could even be something like "agile adventurers may opt to Run from battles they cannot win" to hint at the chance of escaping being tied to agility
Ironically, this is one of those games that is extremely forgiving once you actually understand what you're doing.
Completely agree
The coin flip system (and all fear and hunger in a sense) is a really interesting case for me as a UX designer. Players have a tendancy to go quick and use their previous game knowledge to play which results in them not reading and being dumb haha. This game punish that so hard and I love it! Though I will agreed that the lucky coin should have a remember prompt in the lower left on top of the lucky coin icon that show SHIFT. I think it will help new player a little. The saving coin flip is the most annoying simply because you can lost a lot of progress and can be a rage quit moment but I think you explain it really well. If they find the bed in the basement, the first save is free. So no excuse there.
Also thumbs up for BabyPollo94!
Frapollo, please cover the fangame of fear and hunger that became it's original project called "Solve Et Coagula"
Once it comes out
the ONLY thing i hate about the coin flips is needing to do one to save, whether you can kill everything to avoid it or not its still pretty annoying
If you download my bugfix mod, you won't have a coinflip after clearing the floor
if you do not want to challenge the chance there is a mod to always win the coin toss
does it exist for termina
cuz i rlly wanna test it
ofc i wont use it for genuine runs cuz i do like the misery of failing stuff
@@burntcrumbs yes, there is one on nexus mods for it called "Always Win Coin Tosses," its the third one under popular (all time)
I really liked this breakdown of the coinflips and I hadn't considered viewing them as a 50/50 chance to get saved from your own mistake.
This is just my theory on why the coinflips feel bad when they fail: If there was no coinflip you wouldn't have anything to blame for your loss other than not guarding, with the coinflip added you get to blame bad luck, taking all responsibility away from your own mistake of not hitting guard.
People don't like to think they made a mistake but blaming the cointoss for their mistake will likely make them feel as if their choices didn't matter at all.
I still like the cointoss mechanic, great video
Interestingly, I think you raise a really good point about the "atmosphere/theme" of Fear and Hunger, in relationship to it being a sort of symbol or metaphor for survival. I think in both real life and video games, humans do not like to blame ourselves for our mistakes. Instead, we get mad that whatever odd-probability there was that we would be fine anyway... didn't happen.
If I don't prepare for a natural disaster, am I going to be mad at myself for doing nothing and gambling on being okay? Or am I going to be mad that the supply truck was empty when I got to it?
If I put no money aside to prepare for emergencies, am I going to be mad at myself for spending too much, or mad that probability was not in my favor and I developed cancer?
I wonder how many things in life I gamble on without even realizing that I'm gambling, or recognizing that I had the power to avoid that gamble in the first place.
People would call the coinflip the worst mechanic but to be honest you can just skip the coinflip if you have perfect guard, also you can just choose not to sleep in a bed and find a scroll and make yourself op, also I recommend playing the game on fear and hunger difficulty cuz playing it on the hardest difficulty seems like a stupid idea for a new player
I guess you could say that the best way to always succeed a coin flip attack is to not let it happen. I can't remember that many coin flip attacks that you can't disable the enemy from using. And others can be guarded against once you figure out which turn they occur on.
Mister Frapollo, may we please get the unreleased video, pretty please 🙏 👉👈👉👈👉👈🥺🥺🥺
Let's see. The combat flip I agree, it's a hail mary. The save... eh, 50/50. I understand the why, but sometimes you just want to save because you have to stop playing. The loot flip on the other hand... as you said, it's there to make you feel bad. If the game has already decided what's going to happen, I prefer for the game to just do that, instead of trying to fool you.
honestly the coin flip isn't just a last resort or tension builder, I feel that it's kinda necessary for the design of this game especially for saving, as it forces players to learn how to get around the random elements and use every trick up their sleeve to guarantee success. If saving wasn't gated by a coin flip, you could just save before every enemy encounter until you win through RNG. By having guaranteed saving be a reward for clearing all the enemies it demonstrates that the enemy encounters are puzzles intended to be overcome by the player, and that they have to work to find the scraps of ways to succeed in this environment. Also, by subverting many aspects of the typical RPGmaker game, it further creates a hopeless feeling among first time players, and teaches them that they have to push through that and be creative in order to succeed, which is an important life lesson. Like you said the randomness is going to happen anyway; the game is doing you a favour by letting you know, just in a very mean way
Yes!!!! I wrote a very long comment mostly focused on how the coin-flip adds to the theming of the game and how it teaches newer players how to win, but these are all very good points too. Fear and Hunger is really much more of a roguelike than it is a linear rpg. (Which, had I played more than a single roguelike before becoming aware of Fear and Hunger, might have been something I realized quicker, but oh well hahaha.) It is fundamental to the very fabric of what the game is. Remove it, and you're not removing just a single mechanic. You're making a major change to how players play, and actually probably making your game far less enjoyable by teaching them all the wrong things.
After playing Termina, I now wish for more Coinflip attacks!
(For the love of all that is holy, please make Mind Control be a coinflip Miro!)
Спасибо конору(dawg), за то что познакомил меня с твоим каналом. До этого я и правда думал что f&h -нечестная jrpg. Я был прав, игрок НЕЧЕСТНО силён и может пройти все с легкостью, надо только разобратся
Easy, coin flip before the coin flip, then press enter on the opposite side than the one your coin landed on, you just made your odds become a 75-25 (I failed math class)
That's overcooking
"Babypollo" was so innocent 😂❤ Little did he know that he would become the absolute Master of this game 😊
I am not sure if this sentence aplies here but here it goes
Edgies who who die from the coinflip attack after going only for the head on a guard and then complain about how the game is hard are experiencing something called reap what you sow
You know what they say if it ain’t 100% it’s 50% or wait it is 50%
Frap I have been a long time follower and your videos and discord were fundamental to me getting access to the different possible maps of the game (before they were made publicly available on the wiki). Your equipment and quality of editing has come a long way and it feels great to see the game and your channel doing so well. You are THE F&H1. Wishing you an abundance of pinecone pigs m'lard.
awww thanks
"a lot of people consider me a gatekeeper" Me, who was only able finish the game with the help of Frapollo's videos: visible confusion...
Exactly i wouldn't even try Fear and Hunger if not cuz of this guy lmao
In other hard games bosses can have insta kill moves, here you at least got 50% which you can increase to 75% to dodge the instakill move which you didn't prepare for in advance (guarding)
The temptation to make a mod where *every* decision no matter how insignificant becomes a coin flip.
Start the run?
Failed coinflip
Game closes
Every input triggers a coin flip. If you win the coinflip, then the input happens. If you lose, you DIE.
Bonus points if the final boss is replaced by Batman
@@casanovafunkenstein5090 if you win the coin flip when you get to the final boss you get to fight some random guy in a Batman Halloween costume
@@frapollo94 your words make it very tempting
I ran into Sir Seymour while randomly wandering around.
As far as chests go. I think it's a great mechanic to do a coin flip. No two runs will be the same. Gives so much replay ability
Honestly the coinflips are a big reason WHY I became so attracted to this series lol. It's such a proudly unfair mechanic that just _clicks_ with me in just the right way.
"You know what date is on this channel? November 2020, it's been travelling over 3 years to get here. And now it's here and it's either subscribed or unsubscribed" -Anton Chigurh Probably
Crow Mauler: You just survived my special attack. Now dont put that coin in your pocket, otherwise it will mix in with other coins and become another generic coin.....which it is.
I still find it funny that you just die if you failed the coin flip while reading the necronomicon. I feel like thats niro's troll but then again you can get a random gro goroth spell from it. Imagine having black orb at the start with 0 affinity with gro goroth
Yo cuando tengo miedo y hambre
didn't watch the video yet, and I fell in love with this mechanic of a 50/50, it's just adds immersion of luck in a game where if you obtain certain item, you can get some advantage but you shouldn't really depend on that, but instead on knowledge of the characters, builds, enviroments, enemies, and do a proper planification depending on what you've already compiled, it's just amazing.
flipping coin to see if i pull the plug on my infant son challenge
oh no
@@frapollo94 oh yes
AS someone once said " you need to call it. I can't call it for you, it wouldn't be fair. It wouldn't even be right.
Oh I actually need to google this quote
@@frapollo94 it's from a movie called no country for old men, if you look for the coin toss scene you will find on UA-cam
It just shows how far the hand holding of modern games has gone; without an hour long tutorial, a map polluted with markers, and a way point to follow, a large group of people are going to be lost
I hate games that are intuitive and make sense
I can agree to a certain degree. I think those aspects are good in general, but it has made people expect to be told how to play the game instead of learning how to play themselves.
a game that doesnt kill you because you are not a psychic and dont know what is going to happen is not "hand holding" brother
While I do agree to an extent. People will always to stupid (including me) in one way pr another when it comes to games.
Like the amount of People I have seen, who were in their second or third hour of playing the game, not getting that attacking the guards cleaver is the best opener to that fight is mind boogling.
Like People just sometimes need detailed instructions.
I get that this Is just the type of game Funger is but I know many people that won't touch games like this simply because they don't have the time to throw themselves against a wall For 3 hours (Outside help not included of course)
> hand holding is when enemies don't have an rng based instakill attack with 50% chance
I think the coin flip mechanic is great in combat, its use in Termina being even better with clear coin flip set up moves and having multiple answers like building for a specific damage type. Its use on chests and bookshelves devolves into a time-wasting mechanic with little interaction outside of burning a resource to have an increased chance at an RNG roll. While the overall difficulty would go down, I think it's worth it for the sake of game flow to remove the coin flip entirely or have a bad coin flip RNG pool with things ranging from negative effects to mediocre items.
*Spoilers*
During my solo Marcoh kill everyone day one morning run I cut out almost all RNG for my route using steal, pinecone pig, and Marcoh not losing Quick Jabs with no arms. In my winning run I lost almost all chest coin flips but this was meaningless because of the Marcoh build making the rolls a waste of time and causing a less varied build. I don't see what's interesting about the negative effect being an empty chest 99% of the time I don't think it adds to the experience.
Funger Facts:
*You can steal Tanaka's life savings
*Frogs bow to no one
If the mechanic isnt needed and is countered by blocking, then its pointless fluff
Isn't it part of the puzzle? The game is a puzzle, removing these mechanics wouldn't mean removing what makes fear & hunger itself?
@@frapollo94 its not a necessary part of the puzzle though, its just an extra step, the game is not friendly to most players, and thats the point of the game, but people who dont understand the mechanics are valid, even dark souls had a proper tutorial to the games mechanics, but things like lucky voin being hidden behind some item text wont click with most people, most people expect a core game mechanic to have some form of instruction
I always thought that coin flips were funger's spin on the whole RPG trope of an enemy charging up a attack you would have to block or else take heavy damage
Turn based RPG's I meant.
@@splatoonaleks5667 which you could achieve by just having text describing a big attack, it would also potentially limit bugs like the ones frapollo mentioned
I only just learned that killing all the enemies in a zone gives you a safe heal. I feel dumb now
Don't. There's nothing to be ashamed of for being ready to learn new stuff
I hear frappolo say once that one day he will be able to play the game without looking. When he said in the video that his "first blind gameplay" i thought it was that lol. But i found cute hearing his first gameplay.
Haha just you wait, one day...
The coin toss was one of the reasons I got the game I thought it was such a cool idea and still do
Going through this entire comment section at this point and responding excitedly to all the other coin-flip lovers, but YES!! This is the mechanic that first made the game's philosophy click into place for me. I actually think removing it would make far too many players try to play it like a traditional rpg, and we might not even be having this conversation today, because a lot of people who love Fear and Hunger might have never learned to play it the way the dev intended and bounced off
Coin flip is awesome, I love having an rng mechanic hurt more due to how its your fault technically.
I really like your argument for the coin flips on chests and the like: considering most of the other pickups are random as well, the coinflip is actually a BUFF to your chances, since you can choose to use a lucky coin.
Glad I offered you a different perspective
While I disagree on the bed since I find it a bit tedious and I dislike more rng on loot that already rng I actually fully agree with you on the enemy coin flip. The fact that you can just cancel it out with guarding makes for intrearing decisions on if you want to defend yourself or risk it for the kill.
I'm happy we can find some middle ground
I can safely say the coin flips in Fear and Hunger don't scare me, because I played a coin flipped based deck in Pokemon tcg. Trying to beat a consistent deck with coin flips is way more scary