Bret is not 100% blameless, but in fairness he was open to literally any other option, but Vince was adamant to do it this way. Vince is known for being stubborn just so he can oppose your ideas. Paul Heyman found that out in 2006. I feel like if Vince really wanted to do it in way that makes everyone happy they could have done it.
In wrestling with shadows, Bret told Vince he wanted to vacate the title on raw because "it would be nice for the fans". Bret didn't want to lose to anyone.
@@DR.64A9 he also suggested to drop it to Shawn on that RAW at some point too. There were probably many more possibilities that were or should've been discussed. Shawn was being a total dick, Vince was very stubborn and Bret had creative control for the last 60 days of his deal. Hard not to side with Bret on this one.
@@thegreenpianist7683not wanting to lose in Canada is a stupid reason. If you're going to lose to Shawn the next night, just do the business the next day.
@@oIRONITEoNo it's not. It's what the canadian fans wanted to see. And american fans would love to see Bret lose on Raw. But I think it was a work as both Bret and Vince got super over.
@@jg3000 nah bro it's not work. Bret's career died a death after he went to WCW. Vince capitalized on the incident for heat like he did the Iran war, the gulf war, and any other event.
The standards for the "Celebrity Wing" of the Hall of Fame are so low, ICP absolutely warrants an induction. They're (as a group) one of like 5 celebrities to ever actively and directly participate in the industry and had several matches and appearances in WWF and WCW. If Ahnold and the 3rd best host of Whose Line is it Anyway? can be inducted on basically 1 real appearance, the ICP are first-ballot main contenders for the HoF.
@@CrashdummyNation The "Celebrity Wing" is just an informal fan thing. Hence the quotation marks. There isn't a formal distinction made by WWE between celebs and wrestlers.
On the last take: I've been watching since either late 2015 or early 2016... I don't think there really was much difference in the end product from when they were in person together versus the video call format. Might even think: if they were sitting together in a room we'd probably end up seeing more of the sides of their heads as they turn to face eachother when they talk - it would just look awkward if Steve was talking to Larson but facing the camera (in a wider shot) than what we get now where they are mostly facing to their cameras.
Yes, yes he did. WWE has completely written their own timeline and own history when it comes to the Montreal Screwjob. Bret had a month left on his deal and was more than willing to drop the belt, just not to Shawn without Shawn doing the honors for Bret before hand. It's also Vince's fault for screwing Bret on the contract he just signed and for keeping Bret champion until the last minute. He could have done either of those things differently. Vince claimed he couldn't afford Bret, but right after that he paid Tyson and then paid Austin a huge contract. He had the money, he just decided Bret wasn't actually worth it.
The only slight argument is at the time Vince told Bret they were out of money, he was being mostly truthful. Vince just didn't realize that just raising IYH prices to match regular PPV's would fix mostly everything when it came to cash flow combined with better business in general.
@@kidgruesome407 No he didn't lol. Bret had a contract that both sides had to abide. In Bret's contract he had creative control. Bret had to lose the title, something he knew and had no problem doing, but Bret had every right to dictate who and where he would lose it before his contract ended. Vince just didn't like the choices Bret gave him because it went against what Vince had penciled in to his plans.
I.C.P totally deserves the H.O.F. if Pete Rose can be in there, Violent J and Shaggy 2 Dope totally deserve it. They were ECW, WWE, WCW and created and still run their own promotion JCW.
The Montreal Screwjob was perfect the way it occurred. Had Bret lost to Undertaker or whomever, it would've been just another Survivor Series. Bret getting screwed, spitting at Vince, writing out WCW (Nevermind the juicy backstage stuff). Remember, there was a division between fans FOR YEARS that thought it was a work. Especially with the Bret video coming out. Thats how GOOD it was.
17:03 2016 _ was a very formative era.... and you guys were the very FIRST I signed up for Patreon and Sub to your channel Thank you for the final thoughts.... that was so brave of you to share. ( wrestle juice Fam ) !!!!
Friendo here, I miss the in person episodes. I understand what you are saying and I agree with you. Video podcasts are hilarious. In person, lots of work. I appreciate everything you and Larson do for us. Maybe one day we will get an in person video of you and your mods shooting the shit celebrating FHHD. Much love.
Steve is it possible that you and Larson go to Forbidden Door in London next year and then stop at WrestleTalk and do a live Going In Raw from their studio setup?
The ignored fact that WWE leaves out is Bret had creative control during the last few months of his contract. He literally could have no showed Survivor Series. The fact Bret suggested different ways to drop the belt does show he wanted to do the right thing.
There was no other way other than screw Bret. His other option was vacating the title on raw, that would make the title meaningless because it would show that even the world champion would trade that for a lucrative contract in the other company. The message would be normal contract at WCW > world title at WWE Plus the match was in Canada, it had to be a super mega heel to do it to justify the reaction, it couldn’t be any heel, it had to be the biggest heel, and the biggest heel was Shawn.
While I do miss the two of you together in the same room, I also understand cost efficiency dictates being in your own homes. The number of people on staff, I believe, is a big reason Wrestletalk has mentioned the financial struggle they are having. I just want you guys around because I like you both. You two were one of the reasons I got back into wrestling after having dropped out for a few years.
Here’s my idea about the screw job (i was born round this time so take that into account) 1 why not just do a transitional champ maybe Owen 2 have someone attack Brett before the match and have him entrust someone to defend the title for him and lose
Rollins looks WAY better hairy. Bret didn't do himself many favors. And I do kinda get ICP going in. Drew Carrey. Is in. The Hall of Fame. ICP had 11 matches between WCW and WWF TV shows (and like 7-8 WCW house shows). That bridge is still burned because of how it ended, so they won't go in just like the Nasty Boyz. BUT they deserve a spot more than a few existing HoF members.
Exactly. But also Bret said he'd lose on Raw the next night to HBK. So what do the canadian fans want to see? Bret Hart win. Next night on Raw american fans would love to see HBK win. What does Bret's contract say? Does Bret have matchs left? Can you sign a one match contract? I think it was a work .
Vince was in the wrong but Bret isn't 100% a victim either. TBH, I do remember ICP doing stuff in WCW and IIRC they had matches (Shaggy 2 Dope was in NWA not too long ago). Given the celebs in the HoF, I do think ICP earned a spot too
@Joshua4658 for telling the truth there was no clause saying you're creative control doesn't count if you champ, why are u defending vince so hard he's was clearly wrong
I think Vince was correct. The belt is property of WWF. He's not going to let someone go to another company with the WWF title. Would be kind of like an Ex McDonald's employee working at KFC wearing their old McDonald's uniform
Jim Cornett gave more insight on the screwjob and how he was the reason Vince decided on doing what he did with the finish, I think y’all wil find that entertaining if y’all want to hear more
My main argument, especially after learning the real reason why Bret wouldn't drop the belt, is that while its understandable why Vince did what he did, he still shouldn't have. On Brets end, Michaels was an absolute garbage human (at the time) and deserved so much worse. On Vinces end, he backed out of the contract, Bret had creative control, and there were other scenarios that Bret was fine with. And to make matters worse, it was Shawns mouth that created this headache for Vince in the first place.
Vince was basically right, but he did everything in the most paranoid, a-hole type way possible _and_ Shawn Michaels had too much power at the time. The guy was being pissy about putting Austin over at 'Mania, after all. Ironically, if HBK just does the Bret rematch at the previous 'Mania, Austin isn't as hot, HBK is actually more powerful (having done Business), and Bret likely isn't even the champ.
Shawn’s comments to Bret were incredibly disrespectful. I don’t know why Vince didn’t side with Bret on this, have Bret drop the belt to Undertaker instead and have Undertaker drop the title to Shawn later on. Vince was in the wrong and Shawn was in the wrong for gaslighting Bret. HHH was also take some blame for giving Vince the idea. 🤷♂️
I’m ngl I may be in hot take territory but I prefer the zoom calls, idk why. Maybe it is because I see how comfortable yall look. And I like that both your spaces look like you both individually. Idk, but I dig. ❤
Bret's deal had creative control and didn't expire til the end of the month. Plus, a 30-day non-compete clause. That was why he didn't wrestle at Starrcade.
I know hindsight is 20/20, but there were other avenues Vince could have taken to avoid all of the shit that went down in Montreal. He could have read Shawn Michaels the riot act, and told him to stop being a shit-stirring prick. He could have had Brett drop the belt to someone else (like Taker), and avoided the whole situation. Brett isn’t totally blameless in that situation, he really took himself too seriously, but at the same time, putting myself in his shoes, I probably would want to do business with Shawn Michaels’ punk ass either. Brett even tried to smooth things over with him, and Michaels just added fuel to the fire.
Vince would have been right if he put his foot down and said no, you're dropping the belt. By agreeing to Bret's terms and giving his word and settling on a finish just to lie and screw him... that makes Vince wrong. He lied. He showed he is not a man of his word. Vince screwed Bret.
6:22 I have to disagree. Legally Bret had no legs to stand on. If I remember correctly, Brett said he had already signed with WCW before survivor series pen to paper which made survivor series a handshake, deal, give or say Vince had to get the title he went the wrong way about it Shawn even though he’s my favorite wrestler was wrong here and he should’ve been removed from the match they could’ve easily swapped someone else in. or just announce that you vacate the title off of Brett because he signed with another company simple but I cannot blame Vince for wanting to avoid another Medusa incident
It was never about not trusting Bret, it was ALWAYS about not trusting Bischoff. Eric 1000% would've said the next night on Nitro that he's signed the WWF's world champion. Bret just relinquishing the belt is just a stupid idea. The company is still going to be there the next day that title needs to have a lineage, and they should be able to control that lineage by putting the belt on who they wanted, considering Bret was leaving anyway.
The Insane Clown Posse should be in all encompassing or indie wrestling hall of fame for what they have done in wrestling as a whole but in wwe wit the oddiites they were not that important despite their frequent appearances
The one problem with calling HHH's Reign of Terror at the level of the Bloodline story is that the Bloodline story isn't systematically holding down different guys month after month for three years.
@@ad206 that's exaggerated and imagined. The only bad booking was Booker T and that's for storyline reasons. The rest were not ready for that title and being world champion especially RVD and none of them were hindered by being beaten, just the usual fan outrage of their favorites not winning.
@@navtektv They gave Kane a horrible storyline and took his mask the next year. Goldberg left wrestling entirely for 12 years. Scott Steiner had to go to another promotion. Orton wouldn't see a main event for another 3 years. Booker had to change gimmicks entirely.
You are wrong. There is absolutely nothing reasonable about refusing to lose the title in the ring before leaving the company. The match was advertised. Changing the main event was also not reasonable. I’m a Brett fan two. But as a business owner if I had an independent contractor pull a stunt like Brett did I’d sue them and let the explain to an arbitrator the delusion that it is “reasonable” for a performer portraying a fictional character in scripted simulated sport dramatic performance to refuse to lose the belt on the way out of the company. And as pro wrestling fan I’m stunned that Brett Hart does not understand that when a wrestler is chosen to carry a championship that they never actually won in a legitimate contest then they owe a debt to the audience, to the other wrestlers, and to the promotion that made them to lose that title clean in the middle of the ring before they go. It might have been reasonable a month earlier to say, “I won’t lose to Shawn in Canada” so that Vince, Bruce, and Cornie had a chance to book their way out of it. Bart the week of the event says, “I don’t want to do it”. There is no reality where that is reasonable.
Vince definitely "screwed" Bret, but I feel like he exercised the best option he could to benefit himself and the storyline moving forward. Kayfabe wise, HBK needed all the heat he could get for WM14. Aside from Foley who wasn't built up like that at the time, there was no other WM worthy feud for Austin who was clearly getting the mega push. Shawn was the only logical choice. Taker could've gotten it, but to drop it to HBK anyway would've been redundant and there wouldn't have been any heat going into WM14, plus Taker had Kane waiting for him. As far as the business goes, Bret had Vince by the balls. He made all his dates, and wasn't required to show up at SS. Bret could've pulled a Ric Flair at WCW and get off with barely a lawsuit if that. He got paid, made his final date and went home safe and sound. In my personal opinion, I believe in doing the job regardless of how you feel if it's physically possible in any occupation. If I were Vince, I would've felt a way about Bret holding the company up because he didn't wanna lose to Shawn. Vince did a lot of messed up things, but calling an audible on a wrestling show without a wrestler's knowledge isn't one of them.
Hot Take on The Screwjob... Bret knew the ropes when it came to titles in wrestling back then... If you showed up on a rival's show with the title of your enemy, you're gonna risk another Madusa moment, or there's gonna be a big legal battle, like when Flair took the Big Gold belt and used it as the "Real World's Championship" and caused the legal headache that followed... Knowing that, Bret didn't want to do business with Shawn Michaels because both of them were petty divas... BOTH OF THEM!!! Vince did wrong, but Bret was gonna also do wrong by the WWF, and you KNOW Bischoff would have joygasmed over the idea of destroying the WWF Title on WCW TV... Hot Take about ICP in the Hall of Fame... They DO have a contribution to add to Wrestling in general... They wrestled as active competitors or in an active manner, for Pay-Per-View shows for every major North American company outside of AEW... This includes: ECW WWF WCW (two different stints) TNA (Got beef with CM Punk from that era) Ring of Honor (Got that X-Pac heat there) NWA and have done stints in Japan and have two different wrestling companies under their belts... Shaggy 2 Dope almost became WCW Cruiserweight Champion, and their matches against The Filthy Animals back in WCW were pretty good for guys who weren't known for wrestling prowess... They also bring in fans who both love and hate them, making them a draw... The only thing they haven't done to offer much to wrestling is lick the butthole of any promoter... They did wrestling for the love of it...
What about refusing to drop the title and just vacating it on Raw before leaving to the competition is “reasonable”? That sounds an awful lot like something 90s Shawn Micheals would do, because it’s something he did twice. I’m mostly on Brett’s side but it’s a lot more nuanced than people say.
ya know whats funny. i have never heard anybody propose to have hbk apologize to bret after the disrespect shawn showed bret. i acually think that might have work. it was all about respect with bret... this was the first time ive heard this take...
@@JAMESRKOFL yeah but that wouldn’t change a thing. He’s just in his bedroom and has like color lights and a few gimmicks in the back. I’m more concerned with the substance of the show.
It's 50/50 blame. Vince and Bret should have worked thinga out. But at the end of day they seem to not really put effoerts for their bussiness together. A third person should had solve their problem like Taker although he said he didnt know.
Well as you said, I don't believe that any court of law would take "yeah but I don't like what you're doing with my character in this scripted TV show" seriously. So partial creative control probably wouldn't hold up in a court of law. Also was the Montréal screw job right at the time? Not for the people involved and for their mental health definitely not. But I don't think wrestling would be what it is right now without it. I don't think you would've got stone cold if Brett Hart was still in the company . Maybe you would've got Mr. McMahon versus Brett Hart but I don't think that would've hit quite the same. So morality wise, yeah probably not good. But as a wrestling fan is probably the best thing that ever happened to us. It's actually kickstart the attitude era, which although had its problematic things, made wrestling what it is today. I don't think that's really debatable.
It's his company, and he can do as he wants with the storylines, Bret was already going to WCW to win more money and work less days but did not want to do what his current job requires of him, that is FOLLOW THE SCRIPT. Vince was right in this one, and also showed Bret that he was nothing but a pawn in the wrestling business.
In the screw job i think just both sides were right to feel how they felt but wrong in how they all handled it. Bret should have dropped the belt but i get him not wanting to drop it to shawn since he was a dick and vince was wrong to trick bret like that but obviously he had to get the belt off bret. They probably should have just had bret drop the belt to a third party and have shawn beat them just to let all the egos move on or something
I also really enjoy the Out runners...but y are we giving so much time and attention to jobbers not even depth guys like private partyy but jobber jobbers
I think Vince should've let bret beat HBK and then have shamrock or whoever come out and challenge him to a fight ala WM9 and beat bret and send bret off
At the end of the day regardless of what personal bs was going on between him and Shawn, Bret still had a job to do so honestly speaking Vince did not screw Bret. All he had to do was lose a fake championship in a fake match but his ego wouldn't let him because he let his personal issues with Shawn get in the way. Mind you he cheated on his wife and then got pissed when Shawn referenced it on TV. Granted that was unprofessional from Shawn but Bret cheated on his wife by himself nobody forced him to do that so again he has nobody but himself to blame for how his life and career turned out. Vince is a devil, Shawn was a narcissistic asshole, Sunny was a slut but bobody screwed Bret but Bret (figuratively speaking)
Cm punk hasn't really been physical because he's probably still healing and isn't at 100% but can wrestle in a very protected manner especially with someone like McIntyre, post bad blood though and 1000% in 2025 he'll most likely wrestle full time
Hey gang. If you want to humble a big star, Close your eyes and imagine hearing,,, Hey Fred, can you shave my back for me. Imagine like Tacker and Rock. 😱😅
Ive often said that it was Vince's paranoia that drove everything. Bischoff has said even if he wanted to there was no way with Hall and Nash lawsuit the wwf belt would've been on nitro. Also bret was all willing to lose until Shawn went "thanks but i wouldn't do that for you" so Bret just went "ok fuck ME? well fuck YOU"
Bret wouldn't have done that anyway. But Eric definitely would've said that they had signed their champion on national TV. This is the same company that announced the Mankind title win, etc. At the end of the day, it was WWF's title, and Bret was leaving for another company. It wasn't like they wanted Bret to get squashed and humiliated. They just wanted him to lose. It wouldn't have hurt Bret in any way. I love Bret but he was being stubborn about the whole thing.
@oIRONITEo I'm not saying he's blameless I just think the narrative gets skewed to what Vince thought would happen because that's the version that various wwe docs have put out there
15:28 I’m sorry but he clearly doesn’t understand the definition of “overrated”. An example of an overrated song is Danielson’s AEW theme; everyone likes to pretend they like it but it’s really not good. Most overrated all time theme is the NWO theme, it’s just bland guitar music and we all love it.
Bret was wrong to refuse to do the job, but Vince could easily have slid someone else in and had them beat Bret. The situation was so easily avoidable.
9:36 That's because Triple H was on 20-30 minutes just talking and talking every....single....week for 3 years. That's the biggest reason why the Triple H character stopped being interesting.
Bro kid rock and Donald trump are in the hall of fame which means if those shit stains can be in the hall of fame so can icp because the bar for the Hall of fame is already low with trump & kid rock in it. Besides icp is probably the only musical group to probably be featured in multiple wrestling companies & actually wrestle. And I agree that in person same room gir was so much better than zoom call gir. Zoom call gir feels like thunderdome which was fun at first but kind of got stale fast. On top of multiple stream lags & drops on youtube or twitch because of someone Internet is bad is the reason I stop watching live streams & only watch the vod's now.
The main difference between the reign of terror and the Bloodline stories are that one of them turned a lot more fans away from the product than the other
FWIW, Kane's OG theme is fantastic. Adding Finger Eleven's butt rock vocals to it was dumb. I have the same opinion about Austin's Disturbed theme, but I don't have people telling me that one is an all time classic theme.
@UltimateFarmer007 yes. That's why it's a hot take. Butt rock vocals don't fit Kane at all and the instrumental was already perfect. Took it from a 10 to a 2.
Here’s my idea about the screw job (i was born round this time so take that into account) 1 why not just do a transitional champ maybe Owen 2 have someone attack Brett before the match and have him entrust someone to defend the title for him and lose
Bret is not 100% blameless, but in fairness he was open to literally any other option, but Vince was adamant to do it this way. Vince is known for being stubborn just so he can oppose your ideas. Paul Heyman found that out in 2006. I feel like if Vince really wanted to do it in way that makes everyone happy they could have done it.
In wrestling with shadows, Bret told Vince he wanted to vacate the title on raw because "it would be nice for the fans". Bret didn't want to lose to anyone.
@@DR.64A9 he also suggested to drop it to Shawn on that RAW at some point too. There were probably many more possibilities that were or should've been discussed. Shawn was being a total dick, Vince was very stubborn and Bret had creative control for the last 60 days of his deal. Hard not to side with Bret on this one.
@@thegreenpianist7683not wanting to lose in Canada is a stupid reason. If you're going to lose to Shawn the next night, just do the business the next day.
@@oIRONITEoNo it's not. It's what the canadian fans wanted to see. And american fans would love to see Bret lose on Raw. But I think it was a work as both Bret and Vince got super over.
@@jg3000 nah bro it's not work. Bret's career died a death after he went to WCW. Vince capitalized on the incident for heat like he did the Iran war, the gulf war, and any other event.
The standards for the "Celebrity Wing" of the Hall of Fame are so low, ICP absolutely warrants an induction. They're (as a group) one of like 5 celebrities to ever actively and directly participate in the industry and had several matches and appearances in WWF and WCW.
If Ahnold and the 3rd best host of Whose Line is it Anyway? can be inducted on basically 1 real appearance, the ICP are first-ballot main contenders for the HoF.
You got a good point
ICP have been wrestling 30 years, they wouldn't goto the celebrity wing...lol
@@CrashdummyNation The "Celebrity Wing" is just an informal fan thing. Hence the quotation marks. There isn't a formal distinction made by WWE between celebs and wrestlers.
I think Drew not having chest hair would take away from his look.
Of course he screwed bret
On the last take: I've been watching since either late 2015 or early 2016... I don't think there really was much difference in the end product from when they were in person together versus the video call format.
Might even think: if they were sitting together in a room we'd probably end up seeing more of the sides of their heads as they turn to face eachother when they talk - it would just look awkward if Steve was talking to Larson but facing the camera (in a wider shot) than what we get now where they are mostly facing to their cameras.
Yes, yes he did. WWE has completely written their own timeline and own history when it comes to the Montreal Screwjob. Bret had a month left on his deal and was more than willing to drop the belt, just not to Shawn without Shawn doing the honors for Bret before hand. It's also Vince's fault for screwing Bret on the contract he just signed and for keeping Bret champion until the last minute. He could have done either of those things differently. Vince claimed he couldn't afford Bret, but right after that he paid Tyson and then paid Austin a huge contract. He had the money, he just decided Bret wasn't actually worth it.
The employee disobeyed the boss.
@@kidgruesome407this is the only argument. Vince could not have let that slide.
The only slight argument is at the time Vince told Bret they were out of money, he was being mostly truthful. Vince just didn't realize that just raising IYH prices to match regular PPV's would fix mostly everything when it came to cash flow combined with better business in general.
@@kidgruesome407 No he didn't lol. Bret had a contract that both sides had to abide. In Bret's contract he had creative control. Bret had to lose the title, something he knew and had no problem doing, but Bret had every right to dictate who and where he would lose it before his contract ended. Vince just didn't like the choices Bret gave him because it went against what Vince had penciled in to his plans.
I.C.P totally deserves the H.O.F. if Pete Rose can be in there, Violent J and Shaggy 2 Dope totally deserve it. They were ECW, WWE, WCW and created and still run their own promotion JCW.
And they were in TNA
Hell no they don’t.
The Montreal Screwjob was perfect the way it occurred. Had Bret lost to Undertaker or whomever, it would've been just another Survivor Series. Bret getting screwed, spitting at Vince, writing out WCW (Nevermind the juicy backstage stuff). Remember, there was a division between fans FOR YEARS that thought it was a work. Especially with the Bret video coming out. Thats how GOOD it was.
15:08 Slow Chemical is still my ringtone 🔥🔥🔥🔥
Maybe Vince didn’t know about Bret and Shawn conversation before their match
17:03
2016 _ was a very formative era....
and you guys were the very FIRST I signed up for Patreon and Sub to your channel
Thank you for the final thoughts....
that was so brave of you to share.
( wrestle juice Fam ) !!!!
Millions of peaches. Peaches for Steve.
Friendo here, I miss the in person episodes. I understand what you are saying and I agree with you. Video podcasts are hilarious. In person, lots of work. I appreciate everything you and Larson do for us. Maybe one day we will get an in person video of you and your mods shooting the shit celebrating FHHD. Much love.
Steve is it possible that you and Larson go to Forbidden Door in London next year and then stop at WrestleTalk and do a live Going In Raw from their studio setup?
Live Watch Alongs together in studio ONLY
The ignored fact that WWE leaves out is Bret had creative control during the last few months of his contract. He literally could have no showed Survivor Series. The fact Bret suggested different ways to drop the belt does show he wanted to do the right thing.
There was no other way other than screw Bret. His other option was vacating the title on raw, that would make the title meaningless because it would show that even the world champion would trade that for a lucrative contract in the other company. The message would be normal contract at WCW > world title at WWE
Plus the match was in Canada, it had to be a super mega heel to do it to justify the reaction, it couldn’t be any heel, it had to be the biggest heel, and the biggest heel was Shawn.
Netflix’s also would count it as a watch if you saw like 2 to 5 seconds if I remember correctly
While I do miss the two of you together in the same room, I also understand cost efficiency dictates being in your own homes. The number of people on staff, I believe, is a big reason Wrestletalk has mentioned the financial struggle they are having. I just want you guys around because I like you both. You two were one of the reasons I got back into wrestling after having dropped out for a few years.
Here’s my idea about the screw job (i was born round this time so take that into account)
1 why not just do a transitional champ maybe Owen
2 have someone attack Brett before the match and have him entrust someone to defend the title for him and lose
Rollins looks WAY better hairy.
Bret didn't do himself many favors.
And I do kinda get ICP going in.
Drew Carrey. Is in. The Hall of Fame.
ICP had 11 matches between WCW and WWF TV shows (and like 7-8 WCW house shows).
That bridge is still burned because of how it ended, so they won't go in just like the Nasty Boyz. BUT they deserve a spot more than a few existing HoF members.
Eric’s question was the most i ever seen Steve think about a question
Vince letting Bret keep the belt after knowing that he couldn't afford to pay him, was the biggest error of this whole thing.
There was discussion at the time that Bret was willing to lose the title the following night at Raw. As said in the doc Vince did it as a power trip.
The bar for celebrities in the Hall of Fame is Drew Carey ICP did more for WWE than Drew ever did
Bret should of dropped it to Sid hbk beats Sid Austin beats hbk
Or do that scenario with shamrock
Exactly. But also Bret said he'd lose on Raw the next night to HBK. So what do the canadian fans want to see? Bret Hart win. Next night on Raw american fans would love to see HBK win. What does Bret's contract say? Does Bret have matchs left? Can you sign a one match contract? I think it was a work .
15:33 This Fire Burns.
You can't hold your company, that you've given notice to, hostage and then claim to be the victim
Nope
Vince was in the wrong but Bret isn't 100% a victim either.
TBH, I do remember ICP doing stuff in WCW and IIRC they had matches (Shaggy 2 Dope was in NWA not too long ago). Given the celebs in the HoF, I do think ICP earned a spot too
But Vince shouldn’t have to do any of those alternate endings because it’s his company (at the time) he needs to do what his boss asks him to do
didnt bret have creative control and the only reason bret was leaving was because vince didnt fufil his contract
@@SeeingShadows reasonable the heavyweight championship shouldn’t fall under that tier
@@Joshualee4658 but it was bruh what u on
@@SeeingShadows shut up
@Joshua4658 for telling the truth there was no clause saying you're creative control doesn't count if you champ, why are u defending vince so hard he's was clearly wrong
I think Vince was correct. The belt is property of WWF. He's not going to let someone go to another company with the WWF title. Would be kind of like an Ex McDonald's employee working at KFC wearing their old McDonald's uniform
Jim Cornett gave more insight on the screwjob and how he was the reason Vince decided on doing what he did with the finish, I think y’all wil find that entertaining if y’all want to hear more
My main argument, especially after learning the real reason why Bret wouldn't drop the belt, is that while its understandable why Vince did what he did, he still shouldn't have. On Brets end, Michaels was an absolute garbage human (at the time) and deserved so much worse. On Vinces end, he backed out of the contract, Bret had creative control, and there were other scenarios that Bret was fine with. And to make matters worse, it was Shawns mouth that created this headache for Vince in the first place.
Vince was basically right, but he did everything in the most paranoid, a-hole type way possible _and_ Shawn Michaels had too much power at the time. The guy was being pissy about putting Austin over at 'Mania, after all. Ironically, if HBK just does the Bret rematch at the previous 'Mania, Austin isn't as hot, HBK is actually more powerful (having done Business), and Bret likely isn't even the champ.
Personally it really doesnt make difference for me if its in person or video call as long as yall are having a good time with it
17:31
a cool million ???
hold my pepsi.
Shawn’s comments to Bret were incredibly disrespectful. I don’t know why Vince didn’t side with Bret on this, have Bret drop the belt to Undertaker instead and have Undertaker drop the title to Shawn later on. Vince was in the wrong and Shawn was in the wrong for gaslighting Bret. HHH was also take some blame for giving Vince the idea. 🤷♂️
I’m ngl I may be in hot take territory but I prefer the zoom calls, idk why. Maybe it is because I see how comfortable yall look. And I like that both your spaces look like you both individually. Idk, but I dig. ❤
You are a true ride or die madam vp. ♥️
@@WrestleJuice Always and forever! :D
I love how Triple Paul is trying to take credit for Jim Cornette's idea. 🤦
Bret's deal had creative control and didn't expire til the end of the month. Plus, a 30-day non-compete clause. That was why he didn't wrestle at Starrcade.
Short answer: Yes.
Long answers: Yeeeeessssssssss.
I know hindsight is 20/20, but there were other avenues Vince could have taken to avoid all of the shit that went down in Montreal. He could have read Shawn Michaels the riot act, and told him to stop being a shit-stirring prick. He could have had Brett drop the belt to someone else (like Taker), and avoided the whole situation.
Brett isn’t totally blameless in that situation, he really took himself too seriously, but at the same time, putting myself in his shoes, I probably would want to do business with Shawn Michaels’ punk ass either. Brett even tried to smooth things over with him, and Michaels just added fuel to the fire.
Vince would have been right if he put his foot down and said no, you're dropping the belt. By agreeing to Bret's terms and giving his word and settling on a finish just to lie and screw him... that makes Vince wrong. He lied. He showed he is not a man of his word. Vince screwed Bret.
6:22 I have to disagree. Legally Bret had no legs to stand on. If I remember correctly, Brett said he had already signed with WCW before survivor series pen to paper which made survivor series a handshake, deal, give or say Vince had to get the title he went the wrong way about it Shawn even though he’s my favorite wrestler was wrong here and he should’ve been removed from the match they could’ve easily swapped someone else in. or just announce that you vacate the title off of Brett because he signed with another company simple but I cannot blame Vince for wanting to avoid another Medusa incident
Wasn't Bret still in contract for about another month? And didn't he agree to give up the belt on the Monday?
Bischoff did in fact go on nitro the next night and announce (in a super cringe way) that he had signed Bret. So 🤷♂️
It was never about not trusting Bret, it was ALWAYS about not trusting Bischoff. Eric 1000% would've said the next night on Nitro that he's signed the WWF's world champion. Bret just relinquishing the belt is just a stupid idea. The company is still going to be there the next day that title needs to have a lineage, and they should be able to control that lineage by putting the belt on who they wanted, considering Bret was leaving anyway.
@@oIRONITEoWhy not the next night if Bret is contracted too? It was a work. Because Bret can't breech his WWE contract.
@@jg3000 because WCW would've announced they had signed Bret before he dropped the belt. WCW had already teased a big announcement that night
@@oIRONITEo I am also sure that bret said he would have let Shawn pin him on raw, if Shawn let Bret pin him on survivor series.
The Insane Clown Posse should be in all encompassing or indie wrestling hall of fame for what they have done in wrestling as a whole but in wwe wit the oddiites they were not that important despite their frequent appearances
14:24 I don’t think he takes the take far enough, the most optimism wrestler is completely hairless
Hahahahahaha hard to argue
The one problem with calling HHH's Reign of Terror at the level of the Bloodline story is that the Bloodline story isn't systematically holding down different guys month after month for three years.
yes, it did.
And neither did Triple Hs reign.
@@navtektv Of course it did, lol. At least 5 guys got derailed for years because of working with him.
@@ad206 that's exaggerated and imagined. The only bad booking was Booker T and that's for storyline reasons. The rest were not ready for that title and being world champion especially RVD and none of them were hindered by being beaten, just the usual fan outrage of their favorites not winning.
@@navtektv They gave Kane a horrible storyline and took his mask the next year. Goldberg left wrestling entirely for 12 years. Scott Steiner had to go to another promotion. Orton wouldn't see a main event for another 3 years. Booker had to change gimmicks entirely.
Santana was hired as a tag guy who didnt want to tag with his partner anymore. idk how that take makes sense? rooting for him in TNA tho
What up WrestleJuice fam?
You are wrong. There is absolutely nothing reasonable about refusing to lose the title in the ring before leaving the company. The match was advertised. Changing the main event was also not reasonable. I’m a Brett fan two. But as a business owner if I had an independent contractor pull a stunt like Brett did I’d sue them and let the explain to an arbitrator the delusion that it is “reasonable” for a performer portraying a fictional character in scripted simulated sport dramatic performance to refuse to lose the belt on the way out of the company. And as pro wrestling fan I’m stunned that Brett Hart does not understand that when a wrestler is chosen to carry a championship that they never actually won in a legitimate contest then they owe a debt to the audience, to the other wrestlers, and to the promotion that made them to lose that title clean in the middle of the ring before they go. It might have been reasonable a month earlier to say, “I won’t lose to Shawn in Canada” so that Vince, Bruce, and Cornie had a chance to book their way out of it. Bart the week of the event says, “I don’t want to do it”. There is no reality where that is reasonable.
Vince definitely "screwed" Bret, but I feel like he exercised the best option he could to benefit himself and the storyline moving forward. Kayfabe wise, HBK needed all the heat he could get for WM14. Aside from Foley who wasn't built up like that at the time, there was no other WM worthy feud for Austin who was clearly getting the mega push. Shawn was the only logical choice. Taker could've gotten it, but to drop it to HBK anyway would've been redundant and there wouldn't have been any heat going into WM14, plus Taker had Kane waiting for him. As far as the business goes, Bret had Vince by the balls. He made all his dates, and wasn't required to show up at SS. Bret could've pulled a Ric Flair at WCW and get off with barely a lawsuit if that. He got paid, made his final date and went home safe and sound. In my personal opinion, I believe in doing the job regardless of how you feel if it's physically possible in any occupation. If I were Vince, I would've felt a way about Bret holding the company up because he didn't wanna lose to Shawn. Vince did a lot of messed up things, but calling an audible on a wrestling show without a wrestler's knowledge isn't one of them.
Hot Take on The Screwjob...
Bret knew the ropes when it came to titles in wrestling back then... If you showed up on a rival's show with the title of your enemy, you're gonna risk another Madusa moment, or there's gonna be a big legal battle, like when Flair took the Big Gold belt and used it as the "Real World's Championship" and caused the legal headache that followed... Knowing that, Bret didn't want to do business with Shawn Michaels because both of them were petty divas... BOTH OF THEM!!! Vince did wrong, but Bret was gonna also do wrong by the WWF, and you KNOW Bischoff would have joygasmed over the idea of destroying the WWF Title on WCW TV...
Hot Take about ICP in the Hall of Fame...
They DO have a contribution to add to Wrestling in general... They wrestled as active competitors or in an active manner, for Pay-Per-View shows for every major North American company outside of AEW... This includes:
ECW
WWF
WCW (two different stints)
TNA (Got beef with CM Punk from that era)
Ring of Honor (Got that X-Pac heat there)
NWA
and have done stints in Japan and have two different wrestling companies under their belts... Shaggy 2 Dope almost became WCW Cruiserweight Champion, and their matches against The Filthy Animals back in WCW were pretty good for guys who weren't known for wrestling prowess... They also bring in fans who both love and hate them, making them a draw... The only thing they haven't done to offer much to wrestling is lick the butthole of any promoter... They did wrestling for the love of it...
What about refusing to drop the title and just vacating it on Raw before leaving to the competition is “reasonable”? That sounds an awful lot like something 90s Shawn Micheals would do, because it’s something he did twice. I’m mostly on Brett’s side but it’s a lot more nuanced than people say.
Bret was happy to drop it to anyone but Shawn, the mentality that Bret was unreasonable is ridiculous.
ya know whats funny. i have never heard anybody propose to have hbk apologize to bret after the disrespect shawn showed bret. i acually think that might have work. it was all about respect with bret... this was the first time ive heard this take...
Woww the hot sauce is extra hottt , wash it all down with some sweet WrestleJuice
Wrestlers trust their promoters. Something could have been figured out. Ego made this bad
I think going off the last question maybe have Larson have background setup that matches your setup or better (Steve)
@@JAMESRKOFL yeah but that wouldn’t change a thing. He’s just in his bedroom and has like color lights and a few gimmicks in the back. I’m more concerned with the substance of the show.
It's 50/50 blame. Vince and Bret should have worked thinga out. But at the end of day they seem to not really put effoerts for their bussiness together. A third person should had solve their problem like Taker although he said he didnt know.
Imagine a Harry John Cena?!
Well as you said, I don't believe that any court of law would take "yeah but I don't like what you're doing with my character in this scripted TV show" seriously. So partial creative control probably wouldn't hold up in a court of law.
Also was the Montréal screw job right at the time? Not for the people involved and for their mental health definitely not. But I don't think wrestling would be what it is right now without it. I don't think you would've got stone cold if Brett Hart was still in the company . Maybe you would've got Mr. McMahon versus Brett Hart but I don't think that would've hit quite the same. So morality wise, yeah probably not good. But as a wrestling fan is probably the best thing that ever happened to us. It's actually kickstart the attitude era, which although had its problematic things, made wrestling what it is today. I don't think that's really debatable.
If Drew Carey is in the WWE HOF then FTW..THE MISFITS DESERVE TO BE THERE TOO.
If Vince had half a brain, he'd just make it a triple threat, have Shawn beat that guy, ez pz.
My take for a while has been that everyone was the asshole in that situation.
By this logic if the Montreal screw job never happened then Mr McMahon character is never born and Janelle Grant leads a completely different life
We're talking his kayfabe Vince. He would've still been a real life piece of shit.
It's his company, and he can do as he wants with the storylines, Bret was already going to WCW to win more money and work less days but did not want to do what his current job requires of him, that is FOLLOW THE SCRIPT. Vince was right in this one, and also showed Bret that he was nothing but a pawn in the wrestling business.
In the screw job i think just both sides were right to feel how they felt but wrong in how they all handled it. Bret should have dropped the belt but i get him not wanting to drop it to shawn since he was a dick and vince was wrong to trick bret like that but obviously he had to get the belt off bret. They probably should have just had bret drop the belt to a third party and have shawn beat them just to let all the egos move on or something
I also really enjoy the Out runners...but y are we giving so much time and attention to jobbers not even depth guys like private partyy but jobber jobbers
I think Vince should've let bret beat HBK and then have shamrock or whoever come out and challenge him to a fight ala WM9 and beat bret and send bret off
At the end of the day regardless of what personal bs was going on between him and Shawn, Bret still had a job to do so honestly speaking Vince did not screw Bret. All he had to do was lose a fake championship in a fake match but his ego wouldn't let him because he let his personal issues with Shawn get in the way. Mind you he cheated on his wife and then got pissed when Shawn referenced it on TV. Granted that was unprofessional from Shawn but Bret cheated on his wife by himself nobody forced him to do that so again he has nobody but himself to blame for how his life and career turned out. Vince is a devil, Shawn was a narcissistic asshole, Sunny was a slut but bobody screwed Bret but Bret (figuratively speaking)
Cm punk hasn't really been physical because he's probably still healing and isn't at 100% but can wrestle in a very protected manner especially with someone like McIntyre, post bad blood though and 1000% in 2025 he'll most likely wrestle full time
Vince looks soooooo weird nowadays lol
Hey gang. If you want to humble a big star, Close your eyes and imagine hearing,,, Hey Fred, can you shave my back for me. Imagine like Tacker and Rock. 😱😅
Ive often said that it was Vince's paranoia that drove everything. Bischoff has said even if he wanted to there was no way with Hall and Nash lawsuit the wwf belt would've been on nitro. Also bret was all willing to lose until Shawn went "thanks but i wouldn't do that for you" so Bret just went "ok fuck ME? well fuck YOU"
Bischoff did announce Bret had signed (in a REALLY cheesy way) the next night on Nitro so 🤷♂️
After the screw job had happened correct
They could've easily done a losser leaves wwf title match on raw the next night
Bret wouldn't have done that anyway. But Eric definitely would've said that they had signed their champion on national TV. This is the same company that announced the Mankind title win, etc. At the end of the day, it was WWF's title, and Bret was leaving for another company. It wasn't like they wanted Bret to get squashed and humiliated. They just wanted him to lose. It wouldn't have hurt Bret in any way. I love Bret but he was being stubborn about the whole thing.
@oIRONITEo I'm not saying he's blameless I just think the narrative gets skewed to what Vince thought would happen because that's the version that various wwe docs have put out there
15:28 I’m sorry but he clearly doesn’t understand the definition of “overrated”. An example of an overrated song is Danielson’s AEW theme; everyone likes to pretend they like it but it’s really not good.
Most overrated all time theme is the NWO theme, it’s just bland guitar music and we all love it.
@@CheknoEternity nahhhhhhh sorry son Danielson’s theme is fire. “I’m gonna do the bleh bleh bleh do theesndhiejwbdGREATNESS GREATNESS”
Basically everyone I know has those 2 songs in their top 3-5 themes and I think they're both objectively bad songs.
Bret was wrong to refuse to do the job, but Vince could easily have slid someone else in and had them beat Bret.
The situation was so easily avoidable.
Friendo
9:36 That's because Triple H was on 20-30 minutes just talking and talking every....single....week for 3 years. That's the biggest reason why the Triple H character stopped being interesting.
Bro kid rock and Donald trump are in the hall of fame which means if those shit stains can be in the hall of fame so can icp because the bar for the Hall of fame is already low with trump & kid rock in it. Besides icp is probably the only musical group to probably be featured in multiple wrestling companies & actually wrestle. And I agree that in person same room gir was so much better than zoom call gir. Zoom call gir feels like thunderdome which was fun at first but kind of got stale fast. On top of multiple stream lags & drops on youtube or twitch because of someone Internet is bad is the reason I stop watching live streams & only watch the vod's now.
The main difference between the reign of terror and the Bloodline stories are that one of them turned a lot more fans away from the product than the other
#woopwoopHOF2025
ICP can be in the TNA HoF, not WWE tho
Insane Clown Posse had something to do with WWE?
FWIW, Kane's OG theme is fantastic. Adding Finger Eleven's butt rock vocals to it was dumb. I have the same opinion about Austin's Disturbed theme, but I don't have people telling me that one is an all time classic theme.
Adding finger eleven it was pure genius one of the top best themes of all time slow chemical you are the only one i see hating on it lol
@UltimateFarmer007 yes. That's why it's a hot take. Butt rock vocals don't fit Kane at all and the instrumental was already perfect. Took it from a 10 to a 2.
Have you listened to any of the undertakers podcast?
Here’s my idea about the screw job (i was born round this time so take that into account)
1 why not just do a transitional champ maybe Owen
2 have someone attack Brett before the match and have him entrust someone to defend the title for him and lose