Get all sides of every story and be better informed at ground.news/AlexOC - subscribe for 40% off unlimited access. Watch Joe's channel here: www.youtube.com/@unsolicitedadvice9198
English means to put a spin on a ball. If the word on its own merit is sound then we can put a spin on a baal. It's a hell of language that brings many revelations.
"Vanity" is actually the exactly correct interpretation of Solomon's intent. It intentionally implies the cause of these ambitions as being from the ego.
when i was atheist i evetually find solution for question of life meaning by just recirculating this question. why we asking meaning of life, when life is the answer for meaning. whats meaning of everithing? life. and thats give sense of purpose and understanding thats we dont need to suicide, cause life is the answer. with all that mysteries that come with this. you just dont want to be anything, you need something. and you need something interesting with drama and all, that give us interest.
Hey Alex, i have a question, does the sport of football have any real meaning & purpose to it? 22 grown men kicking a sheep's bladder about a ploughed field...where's the rationality in that? They want to grow up these peepil, nuffin but a bunch of deluded idiotic morons the lot of 'em, and anyway, Rugby's better, cos it's obviously way more credible, at least to the mature intellectuals amongst us, AHEM!! "William Webb Ellis was a great genius!" - Me ( just there the now!)
This is not only two philosophers having a great discussion,, This is also two philosophy geeks geeking out about philosophy I’m so happy to see Alex displaying His youthful spirit here. Something that, given the weight of His contents, rarely shown
@@teemumiettinen7250 yea but yet new musicians are discouraged to pursue their path because its "not a real job" because they arent making much money from it at frist .,.shit when people say "i want to be a rapper " alot of people think they are not going to do well in life. Because they see art as a hobby not a job ..
Is it a philosophical perspective or is an outcome of personal growth...not allowing people or events to define your subjective outlook on yourself and your world? It's not a challenge. I'm just curious.
I am very glad Alex said "we will have to have you back" because I would listen to every podcast these two did! If these two met at uni and said lets start a philosophy podcast and did nothing but "cosmic advise" or "unsolicited skeptic" or "Alex O Advise" maybe not that last one not sure how long they could talk about O's I feel like they'd have such a big following. There's a certain dynamic between exploration chaos but still keeping it very linear and followable you two have. more pls
Alex. One of my goals in life is to be on your podcast. I'll work hard and make content and one day when the time is right, I be talking face to face with you. Absoutley LOVE your content! Keep up the great work!
I’ve never quite understood why nihilism is depressing for some people. I find it quite liberating. I suppose it’s a measure of how dependent someone is on their sources of meaning when they encounter the idea.
@chemquests I agree. Nihilism is a beautiful idea because it means we are fundamentally _free._ We're not obligated to live in any particular way dictated by a supreme authority. Some ways of living can still be better than others from a naturalistic perspective, but there can be a multitude of ways to live well as long as you're living in harmony with your fellow creatures.
Just FYI, I think the translation of hebel to "absurd" is overkill and implies some type of unexpected or puzzling quality. But the Hebrew "hebel" means: breath, emptiness, transitory, unsatisfactory, futile. It is the same word as Abel, son of Adam and Eve, whose life was as short as a breath or vapor. Also, the KJV "vanity" used to mean "in vain" as opposed to self centered/looks obsessed. The NASB Bible translation uses "futility." I think this is a good choice for modern English. Although the Hebrew word has a more multifaceted meaning.
How can nothing matter when faced with these two and their off the charts charisma and deep takes? In some parallel universe, they're a tag team philosophy couple that takes the world by storm, including a series of philosophy-wrapped-in-a-sitcom movies.
I am an older viewer (55). When I first started hopping onto UA-cam to watch philosophy videos and, as a result of the road traveled, debunking videos, I hiccupped my way to accepting that the younger generation has interesting and valuable things to share. Seeing you, Modified Skeptic, Rationality Rules, and now Joe, I am feeling more and more confident that there _is_ a generation to keep things rolling. [ *Reference:* I am dealing with the nonsense that is Trump and his cult here in the US and I have been losing my hope for the future of our country, at least.]
There is non-sense about Trump as well as good things. There is non-sense about Biden and the Left, including their enabling of Woke extremism that someone like Trump opposes. One of the very good things he has done. Not all bad / not all good. If you are the likes of referring to anyone who will vote for Trump as "cult", then you're frankly a part of the non-sense and being duped by the Establishment Left. If you are against actual cults, anywhere they are found, from the Left to the Right, most recently the Far Left, then we are aligned in that. I've been around the block plenty, from the Right to the Left, and your comment at the end isn't persuasive with me. It would've been many years ago.
1:15:10 Gotta love when 2 philosophy oriented minds come across a new and succint idea/conclusion that neither of them have though about before but makes so much sense and start gushing about it with each other 😂 Looking foward to that paper, fellas Loved this episode so much! My two fav philosophy channels on an uninterrupted and enthusiastic back and forth about my favorite topic in philosophy (Camus was right with his opening line wasn't he), it seems like an early Christmas, really!
We identify individual aspects to everything. So a table and a chair as two separate things in relation to everything. But when we are not doing that, there is already everything. Free from the need for individual aspects to be identified. The identification of individual aspects is knowing, we are searching to know everything. Everything is already free from the need to be known. There is just absolute freedom, covered over by that search for knowing.
I performed with this man in a musical at the Edinburgh arts festival 5 or so years back! I could tell at the time he was very well read and deeply intellectually curious but I had no idea he had this in him! (perhaps he didn’t back then?) But wow, would love to speak to him again
14:50 this is surreal. I spoke to my theology friend James about this exact sentiment last year, wherein we cross-examined Nietzsche and Solomon’s reconciliations with Nihilism. Our conversation on this tracks very similar to yours!
If I remember properly from my studies, “Hevel”, the Hebrew word in Ecclesiastes, connotatively amounts to Vanity or Meaningless, yes. However, I learned at the same time that it is literally translated as a word for dust or smoke. Something that can be seen, but not grasped. Felt, but not held. 14:42
Nihilism is not a response, but a truth proposition. It either *is* or *is not* . It cannot be good or bad, or right or wrong... it cannot be anything outside of its definition in its truest sense. If it is the case that nihilism is true, meaning that no meaning exists in the universe, then we can focus on how that makes us feel. If nihilism is depressing or liberating, it does not make the truth any more wrong. If nihilism makes someone feel sad, that feeling does not mean nihilism is false. Our reactions can allow us to explore responses like existentialism and absurdism and all of the other philosophical "subsets" (as I like to refer to them as), but we need to clarify between the response, the emotion, and the definition. Now, I will admit that as a more postmodernist-leaning person (especially when it comes to epistemology), I will recognize that it may be difficult to define nihilism. For example, the meta-narrative I lean towards when I hear nihilism not only entails no objective meaning- but also no subjective meaning (as I postulate that if no meaning exists objectively than how can subjective meaning be constructed; how would that process be defined?). This makes me find many existentialists extremely self-deprecating and entirely ignorant. However, I can recognize that their meta-narratives regarding nihilism might be defined differently, so I still hold to recognition of such definitions even if I find them inherently absurd.
@Bluuuud Why would we care about what matters objectively, when what matters subjectively is more than enough? I'd say even the nature of 'mattering' is something that presumes subjectivity rather than objectivity. Sometimes the thinking on this gets muddled because subjectivity is objectively something that many people have in common, the bell curve of values and emotions and instincts make people converge on a common subjective morality. It's not random. But also not objective.
@Bluuuud I think my point was that the natural normal biological instincts DO NOT say "this is fine" unless you are at the edges of the bell curve, an abnormal human biologically speaking. Feeling empathy is the norm.
I've just come across your channels and I'm excited to listen to the content. Philosophy is my main passion and your enthusiasm and freshness is really enjoyable to watch. I'm not well read in Nihilism but I do feel that there's a reason why the brain/mind finds itself in the position of self-awareness from an existential perspective. To understand it fully I believe you have to at least live through it, be humbled by it and recognise the journey that it takes you. Intellectually understanding it and reading other people's accounts will only get you so far. My belief is that nihilism is like a computers operating system that can separate itself from the software in moments where its either necessary or something has occurred in the environment and caused the system to crash. It's important to me to acknowledge nihilism as a basis of understanding, to fall back on and to be humbled by. To go back to the basic and fundamental understanding that nothing really matters to the universe, to creation and that it's all just an illusion. From that point and depth which is almost like coming to terms with mortality, you can emerge and create a reality that is best fitting for your circumstances. I like the quote 'you have to die to live' and I can relate to the idea that to define oneself in the material world, to cling to it and feel that your reality is circumstantial, is where pain and suffering comes from. Viktor Frankl summed it up for me and his accounts of people giving up and dying in the concentration camps and his development of Logotherapy. He always knew when somebody was about to give up and die because they would smoke their cigarette, the only thing that was of value that could be used for bargaining for food and medical care etc.
I enjoyed all this, this flurry of words! But it’s circumambulation. When Heraclitus says “The most beautiful arrangement in the cosmos is a pile of things poured out at random” it goes straight to the point, “the still point of the turning world.”
The moments that reference Jordan Peterson were very insightful. JBP put me on phenomenology. He referenced "Ecological Approach to Visual Perception" a lot
Because as a nihilist, you have to constantly remind yourself that nothing matters. Doesn't matter how much happiness or joy you feel in the moment, you must remind yourself that it's worthless. Birth of your child? It doesn't matter. Getting a raise at work? It doesn't matter. Achieving fitness goals? It doesn't matter. People are not meant to operate in this way so that's why nihilism is an awful mindset to have.
@@zahubshahid7944 you just did what i said people were doing. no you dont, you dont have to do any of that you can have subjective meaning under nihilism all it is is the denial of objective or categorical meaning, am a nihilist and i dont have to remind my self of anything, am perfectly happy and fulfilled in my life
@@zahubshahid7944 I completely agree with you on this one. In a way, it can be refreshing to put into perspective certain 'failures' (if you are not able to get kids, you can always say it doesn't matter anyway) but it also takes away a lot of joy when certain 'goals' are achieved. I suffered from this perspective a lot the last couple of years when certain goals were achieved. How do you personally deal with this?
I understood Sisyphos' punishment to be: There is an exit at the top of the hill which he believes he can reach if he gets the stone to the top. So he could be seen as happy not because he sheds the need for meaning, but because he's doing a task specifically with meaning: Esacpe. He just does not know he won't make it.
Joe Folley’s constant passive noises of approval and enthusiasm when Alex is talking like “hmm. Yes! Uh huh. Yeah!” sound indistinguishable from NPC dialogue noises in games in non-voice acted dialogues haha
I know it may be depressing but I’d like to hear the discussion of whether or not it to take your own life taken more seriously or at least dive deeper into that question.
What’s there to consider? Well only the entirety of your current and potential future experiences and the weight of moral consensus and supposedly divine edict.
I am so curious to this one. I have to admit that I am under the shadow of nihilism the last couple of years and I hope that the smartest thinkers in the world can help me.
I would say that it is premature to have a position of certainty such that nihilism requires. In the meantime, I would love to see more people directing their faith towards something tangible. I believe "Freedom for all humans" is the best target for our worship.
@Bluuuud i have videos making my case and I would be happy to discuss it. The short version is that all humans appear to already judge Good and Bad through the lense of freedom and consent. Maximizing every human's ability to make choices without necessity, coercion, or constraint is likely the only goal we can all functionally share.
@Bluuuud it's not possible to prove it and I am not trying to. I am suggesting that it would be better if everyone believed it. Which is what I meant by putting your faith towards it. If more people choose to believe in and work for freedom instead of thinking of it as an entitlement to use for their personal gratification then I suspect we will all get more of what we actually want out of life.
@Bluuuud Indeed, freedom and consent are very localized metrics, both geographically and temporally, by which Good and Bad are and have been judged by humans, and the suggestion that they are in any sense "universal" is ludicrous.
As someone who absolutely can’t stand Bernardo coupled with the deep personal satisfaction I receive every time I get to watch Alex poke holes in the ideas and beliefs of the loudest most convicted… sign me up too! Yes please! Although I feel it would be a little bit of punching down (not that it would necessarily be adversarial) for Alex, I would definitely enjoy and appreciate. Having said that, I’ll like and comment on every post you make in solidarity and agreement!
@@uninspired3583 I just laughed out loud in a super quiet space hahah. I was honestly expecting someone to be attacking my comment not agreeing 😂🙌 I even went as far as watching two “debates” of his since posting that comment in case maybe I was being to harsh or misremembering but nope, I stand by what I said and i appreciate what you said hahah
@user-wn1kq8jx5q the wierd thing to me is that he uses all the same concievability arguments to tear down materialism, but his own theory has all the same emergence problems materialism has plus some new problems in showing how dissociation works. It seems to me like it's just materialism with extra steps. I'll give him credit here though his fan boys are enthusiastic.
Talking about the sameness of valuing nothing to valuing everything - I just love the Chinese principle of relativity. Listening to Alan Watts on this stuff is great. I guess it struck me as really familiar that these two ends of the spectrum really are the same exact thing. I've told people for a while that everything is priceless. It's free, worthless, invaluable, all at once.
Waw, after seeing this I realize why I'll never get to this level of understanding. I just don't have the enthusiasm and excitement to nerd out over this stuff like them 😄 but lovely to see the excitement though 😊
Something I've never seen covered in UA-cam nihlist / is-ought related videos is the middle ground developed by philospher's like Philippa Foot that use Aristotelian metaphysics to argue for a quasi-middle way between purely secular Enlightment and full on Thomas Aquinas theistic metaphysics. I'd love to hear someone unpack that.
I would say that Ecclesiastes is an exercise in adopting a nihilistic narrative point of view, in order to call it into question at the end. It is the perspective that prevails throughout most of the text, but the nihilist doesn't have the last word. In that sense it is Shakespearean. It reminds me of Jacques in 'As you like it' - the cynic who claims to see through everything, and who therefore remains on the outside of the final celebration
If I recall correctly, vanity originally referred to emptiness/hollowness. The metaphor flows quite easily from this. Someone who's only concerned with the superficial must be in a sense hollow inside. Same for meaninglessness. It's often described as an empty feeling.
Got excited when I saw the thumbnail because I thought he was talking to the host of The Nietzsche Podcast. But looking forward to getting to know more about this pod and host!
They really struck a chord with the final section about how from an outside perspective the two ends of the nihlism spectrum becomes a horseshoe. As a Layman, I have no idea if it's novel in philosphical literature but I'd love to hear you dive into it.
My unsolicited advice for joe? 🙄 .....slow down and gather your thoughts 😂 the fast presentation style works great for the rehearsed material but in conversation it causes too much stuttering. Calm down a bit 😂
Stirner certenly fits the bill the most, as his book opens with 'all things are nothing to me'. What makes it difficult is that stirner puts value onto subjective meaning, and dismisses "objective" meaning, begging the question if a nihilistic statement about things having no meaning is refering to objective or subjective meaning. If its subjective, then we might as well call Camus an nihilist in the same vein. If its about objective meaning, then Stirner would dismiss that notion outright. Or atleast in so far as conventional philosophy would characterize it. "this is objectivly good because i like it" would be a classic Stirneresque joke, and the same could apply to nihilism, in the sense that his subjective nihilism, could be conceptualized as an 'objective' nihilism , if only as a joke.
On the topic at the end on hierarchy, just my input, but my friend and I often discuss prioritizing. I believe this best fits, because priorities can shift mid interaction and the suddenly the ceiling may take more of my focus than the person I'm conversing with, neither of which may have changed much in meaning, just my priority on which holds more of my interest changes. So I'm not fully sure if that is what the conversation was driving towards, but that's where my mind wondered while you guys were having that discussion.
As always I enjoy the podcasts, even the ones I don't agree with. Small point on Ecclesiastes, instead of meaningless it's better translated as evanescent, ephemeral it has this quality of vapor which is fleeting and ungraspable. Such it is with this life, it may be valuable and even beautiful, but the pleasures of this life cannot be grasped and used as a foundation to live. That is the thing that is the main message I think, as Augustine might have said, the transient cannot take the place of the eternal. Once the eternal is there then true joy is complete. (Don't go for the dopamine hits basically)
Get all sides of every story and be better informed at ground.news/AlexOC - subscribe for 40% off unlimited access.
Watch Joe's channel here: www.youtube.com/@unsolicitedadvice9198
Alex have you heard of Krapopolis?
English means to put a spin on a ball. If the word on its own merit is sound then we can put a spin on a baal. It's a hell of language that brings many revelations.
"Vanity" is actually the exactly correct interpretation of Solomon's intent. It intentionally implies the cause of these ambitions as being from the ego.
when i was atheist i evetually find solution for question of life meaning by just recirculating this question. why we asking meaning of life, when life is the answer for meaning. whats meaning of everithing? life. and thats give sense of purpose and understanding thats we dont need to suicide, cause life is the answer. with all that mysteries that come with this. you just dont want to be anything, you need something. and you need something interesting with drama and all, that give us interest.
Hey Alex, i have a question, does the sport of football have any real meaning & purpose to it?
22 grown men kicking a sheep's bladder about a ploughed field...where's the rationality in that?
They want to grow up these peepil, nuffin but a bunch of deluded idiotic morons the lot of 'em, and anyway, Rugby's better, cos it's obviously way more credible, at least to the mature intellectuals amongst us, AHEM!!
"William Webb Ellis was a great genius!" - Me ( just there the now!)
I was depressed by my nihilism, but my depression was utterly pointless
good one lmao
Joke...tautology...or some brilliant metaphysical Hawking radiation escape from the depths of depression?
@@Darwin_is_my_copilot lol
@@Darwin_is_my_copilot and the truth will set you free
Even worse, the pointlessness of my depression was utterly pointless.
Thanks for having me on! I had a great time recording this!
Did I ask for your opinion?
c:
You are Hot !
It was a good convo, pleasure to hear you two chat
I discovered your channel today. Will probably watch all your videos in the next days. Great topics.
I initially thought Alex was interviewing a Nihilist and was so confused by how golden retriever this lad is.
lmaoo😂
such a good boy
I mean being a nihilist and a golden retriever isn't condratictory
"Yes! Yeah, yeah." ~ Unsolicited Advice
Please do more with him, I've never heard of him before and this conversation was just fantastic!
"Mmm"
His enthusiasm is very contagious. His videos are a good bit of fun
My two philosopher crushes in one room talking about my favorite subject. You have my FULL attention.
But in the end it doesn't even matter
Time for a philosopher threesome!
@@Alex-pg1gt It starts with one...
Your not a philosopher just by talking about other philohophers. You're a philosopher teacher.
@@conforzoEveryone who thinks philosophically is in a way a philosopher.
You can tell they're both having a great time together. This was so enjoyable to watch and listen to.
It's weird you say that because Alex seemed so tired in this video because he seems very energetic compared to usual.
A podcast about nihilism - who cares?
an utterly meaningless conversation
@@jakehimes5124 whoosh
But wait… who cares about your comment??
@@BaseSixBasicsWho cares about your reply?
😂 I know right, what’s the point !
this dude literally just popped up on my radar and here he is with Alex already. I can see you guys collaborating for years to come.
😂happened to me as well. He randomly popped up on my feed, used to listen to him but never subscribed until now
This is not only two philosophers having a great discussion,,
This is also two philosophy geeks geeking out about philosophy
I’m so happy to see Alex displaying His youthful spirit here. Something that, given the weight of His contents, rarely shown
You two should start a podcast together. This was the best chemistry I’ve seen with Alex compared to anyone else on the show.
I want to learn more about nihilism but don’t really see the point.
Lol
You've already got it!
This opening about the weird kind of shame and hesitancy to admit to being a "UA-camr" come across as very accurate to my own experience!
Well it does indicate sexual deviance.
dankzij jou heb ik over zoveel verschillende geschiedenisonderwerpen geleerd waar ik anders niets vanaf had geweten, je maakt geweldige videos :)
Because people see videos as art and think you cant make money making art.. this gen starving artist
@@mesekkaiisnt music art? plenty of succesful musicians. Even billionaires.
@@teemumiettinen7250 yea but yet new musicians are discouraged to pursue their path because its "not a real job" because they arent making much money from it at frist .,.shit when people say "i want to be a rapper " alot of people think they are not going to do well in life. Because they see art as a hobby not a job ..
“Don’t try to box me or something” in regards to Jake Paul was the funniest thing you’ve said on the channel
* dox
@@connorwhitmore5400he did not say dox lol
Glad someone else caught that 😂
I'm very surprised they didn't entertain the idea of boxing each other when they mentioned who they'd fight!
Unsolicited Advised became among my favourite channels. So good to see you two having a conversation.
Two of my favorite philosophy youtubers togather 🔥🔥🔥
People who make videos on UA-cam* lol
Pajeet lassi@@GaganSingh-nx2yv
Unsolicited Advice is my new binge worthy channel.
His hand gestures and presentation has me hooked
"I opened myself to the gentle indifference of the world" has always been so deeply comforting to me 😌
Is it a philosophical perspective or is an outcome of personal growth...not allowing people or events to define your subjective outlook on yourself and your world? It's not a challenge. I'm just curious.
@@gooddaysahead1i think it's philosophical just because of the wording.
Holy shit for some reason I never thought I'd see both of my favourite UA-cam philosophers together
This interview is so english, it makes me feel colonized
I was half french, half German. Now I'm wearing Burberry driving a Bentley but I'm still atheist fortunately
I don't care
“You can say whatever ya like… (nods to camera)… Within Reason” 😂
I needed to load up the UA-cam version just to see this moment😂😂😂
Came here to find this comment
Joe is such a passionate and eloquent character. Great conversation!
Lmao Oxford vs Cambridge and they gel so well
why should the university you went to determine who you interact well with?
@@all-caps3927why shouldn't it?
They're the same thing
@@spiralsausageah, yes, where does the burden of proof lie.
@@all-caps3927 I'm pretty sure it was a joke, friend
Finally Alex has tackled the complex topic of public masturbation. About time.
As I see it : one should first acquire a large earthenware pot to live in.
But with dreamboat Joe Folley on the show, an opportunity was sadly missed for a more "hands-on" approach to the topic.👌
1:14:38 "I value what you're giving me rather than what the ceiling is" is a compliment I will definitely remember.
im so excited to watch you guys converse, been waiting since Joe posted 🙌🙌
What a great conversation. It was a pleasure to listen to.
Yes! Yeah yeah yeah
Thumbnail is misleading, I was expecting an interview with Nietzsche 😒
😂
OMG I thought he just shaved! I feel so betrayed T.T
He wasn't a nihilist
It doesn't matter
@@somnathghoshal103 Original thumbnail had Nietzsche in it
Joe's channel is my favorite on UA-cam.
This was a fantastic conversation, you guys are the next public thinkers and I couldn't be happier.
I am very glad Alex said "we will have to have you back" because I would listen to every podcast these two did! If these two met at uni and said lets start a philosophy podcast and did nothing but "cosmic advise" or "unsolicited skeptic" or "Alex O Advise" maybe not that last one not sure how long they could talk about O's I feel like they'd have such a big following. There's a certain dynamic between exploration chaos but still keeping it very linear and followable you two have.
more pls
Nice video! I started watching unsolicited advice quite recently and I wasn't expecting him on your channel. Looking forwards to your next guests.
Alex. One of my goals in life is to be on your podcast. I'll work hard and make content and one day when the time is right, I be talking face to face with you. Absoutley LOVE your content! Keep up the great work!
Thanks for inviting Joe, I didn’t even know that you’ve talked to him.
This is amazing conversation.
I’ve never quite understood why nihilism is depressing for some people. I find it quite liberating. I suppose it’s a measure of how dependent someone is on their sources of meaning when they encounter the idea.
Cause people want a guide , something absolute .
Nihilism rejects all that so their opinion about it will always be negative .
@chemquests I agree. Nihilism is a beautiful idea because it means we are fundamentally _free._ We're not obligated to live in any particular way dictated by a supreme authority. Some ways of living can still be better than others from a naturalistic perspective, but there can be a multitude of ways to live well as long as you're living in harmony with your fellow creatures.
@@ArcadianGenesisabsolutely not, huge misunderstanding here. Chances are you guys watched the Kurzgesagt video.
@@NicolasSchaII Yes, Kurzgesagt gave an excellent overview of optimistic nihilism. Do you have a problem with it?
This is a very pleasant surprise. I've been listening to Joe's monologues a lot lately and enjoyed them a lot.
Two of the most handsome modern philosophers in one frame.
I watch every one of his videos. I'm so happy he's been invited as a guest
I'd watch countless more episodes with this fella. This was a fascinating conversation.
Just FYI, I think the translation of hebel to "absurd" is overkill and implies some type of unexpected or puzzling quality. But the Hebrew "hebel" means: breath, emptiness, transitory, unsatisfactory, futile. It is the same word as Abel, son of Adam and Eve, whose life was as short as a breath or vapor.
Also, the KJV "vanity" used to mean "in vain" as opposed to self centered/looks obsessed.
The NASB Bible translation uses "futility." I think this is a good choice for modern English. Although the Hebrew word has a more multifaceted meaning.
How can nothing matter when faced with these two and their off the charts charisma and deep takes?
In some parallel universe, they're a tag team philosophy couple that takes the world by storm, including a series of philosophy-wrapped-in-a-sitcom movies.
Mr Folley appears to be powered by fusion.
Endless energy.
Yes! Please continue this dialogue. You both are fantastic individuals and thought provoking in this exchange.
loved this episode. please have him back!!
I am an older viewer (55). When I first started hopping onto UA-cam to watch philosophy videos and, as a result of the road traveled, debunking videos, I hiccupped my way to accepting that the younger generation has interesting and valuable things to share. Seeing you, Modified Skeptic, Rationality Rules, and now Joe, I am feeling more and more confident that there _is_ a generation to keep things rolling. [ *Reference:* I am dealing with the nonsense that is Trump and his cult here in the US and I have been losing my hope for the future of our country, at least.]
There is non-sense about Trump as well as good things. There is non-sense about Biden and the Left, including their enabling of Woke extremism that someone like Trump opposes. One of the very good things he has done. Not all bad / not all good. If you are the likes of referring to anyone who will vote for Trump as "cult", then you're frankly a part of the non-sense and being duped by the Establishment Left. If you are against actual cults, anywhere they are found, from the Left to the Right, most recently the Far Left, then we are aligned in that. I've been around the block plenty, from the Right to the Left, and your comment at the end isn't persuasive with me. It would've been many years ago.
TWO OF MY FAVORITE PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET, OH MY “GOD”!!!
1:15:10 Gotta love when 2 philosophy oriented minds come across a new and succint idea/conclusion that neither of them have though about before but makes so much sense and start gushing about it with each other 😂 Looking foward to that paper, fellas
Loved this episode so much! My two fav philosophy channels on an uninterrupted and enthusiastic back and forth about my favorite topic in philosophy (Camus was right with his opening line wasn't he), it seems like an early Christmas, really!
We identify individual aspects to everything. So a table and a chair as two separate things in relation to everything. But when we are not doing that, there is already everything. Free from the need for individual aspects to be identified. The identification of individual aspects is knowing, we are searching to know everything. Everything is already free from the need to be known. There is just absolute freedom, covered over by that search for knowing.
I was hoping you'd have Unsolicited Advice on, so excited to listen!
Surely you’ll have to box a theist. The ultimate debate format.
But would trust them not to cheat?
It's a real treat to see you guys together. More please 😊🙏
Here goes the 2 minds in our public sphere who makes philosophy tasty and super interesting kudos to you lads well done 👊🏿👊🏿🙏🏿🙏🏿
I performed with this man in a musical at the Edinburgh arts festival 5 or so years back! I could tell at the time he was very well read and deeply intellectually curious but I had no idea he had this in him! (perhaps he didn’t back then?) But wow, would love to speak to him again
14:50 this is surreal. I spoke to my theology friend James about this exact sentiment last year, wherein we cross-examined Nietzsche and Solomon’s reconciliations with Nihilism. Our conversation on this tracks very similar to yours!
If I remember properly from my studies, “Hevel”, the Hebrew word in Ecclesiastes, connotatively amounts to Vanity or Meaningless, yes. However, I learned at the same time that it is literally translated as a word for dust or smoke. Something that can be seen, but not grasped. Felt, but not held. 14:42
you two are so different yet work so beautifully in a conversation
Nihilism is not a response, but a truth proposition. It either *is* or *is not* . It cannot be good or bad, or right or wrong... it cannot be anything outside of its definition in its truest sense. If it is the case that nihilism is true, meaning that no meaning exists in the universe, then we can focus on how that makes us feel. If nihilism is depressing or liberating, it does not make the truth any more wrong. If nihilism makes someone feel sad, that feeling does not mean nihilism is false. Our reactions can allow us to explore responses like existentialism and absurdism and all of the other philosophical "subsets" (as I like to refer to them as), but we need to clarify between the response, the emotion, and the definition.
Now, I will admit that as a more postmodernist-leaning person (especially when it comes to epistemology), I will recognize that it may be difficult to define nihilism. For example, the meta-narrative I lean towards when I hear nihilism not only entails no objective meaning- but also no subjective meaning (as I postulate that if no meaning exists objectively than how can subjective meaning be constructed; how would that process be defined?). This makes me find many existentialists extremely self-deprecating and entirely ignorant. However, I can recognize that their meta-narratives regarding nihilism might be defined differently, so I still hold to recognition of such definitions even if I find them inherently absurd.
@Bluuuud just because you are a moral nihilist does not mean that society should not have boundaries.
Inconsequentialness
@Bluuuud Why would we care about what matters objectively, when what matters subjectively is more than enough?
I'd say even the nature of 'mattering' is something that presumes subjectivity rather than objectivity.
Sometimes the thinking on this gets muddled because subjectivity is objectively something that many people have in common, the bell curve of values and emotions and instincts make people converge on a common subjective morality.
It's not random.
But also not objective.
Except nihilism is bad and is false. If everything is meaningless, then nihilism means nothing and has no meaning of nothingness.
@Bluuuud I think my point was that the natural normal biological instincts DO NOT say "this is fine" unless you are at the edges of the bell curve, an abnormal human biologically speaking.
Feeling empathy is the norm.
I've just come across your channels and I'm excited to listen to the content. Philosophy is my main passion and your enthusiasm and freshness is really enjoyable to watch.
I'm not well read in Nihilism but I do feel that there's a reason why the brain/mind finds itself in the position of self-awareness from an existential perspective.
To understand it fully I believe you have to at least live through it, be humbled by it and recognise the journey that it takes you. Intellectually understanding it and reading other people's accounts will only get you so far.
My belief is that nihilism is like a computers operating system that can separate itself from the software in moments where its either necessary or something has occurred in the environment and caused the system to crash.
It's important to me to acknowledge nihilism as a basis of understanding, to fall back on and to be humbled by.
To go back to the basic and fundamental understanding that nothing really matters to the universe, to creation and that it's all just an illusion. From that point and depth which is almost like coming to terms with mortality, you can emerge and create a reality that is best fitting for your circumstances.
I like the quote 'you have to die to live' and I can relate to the idea that to define oneself in the material world, to cling to it and feel that your reality is circumstantial, is where pain and suffering comes from.
Viktor Frankl summed it up for me and his accounts of people giving up and dying in the concentration camps and his development of Logotherapy.
He always knew when somebody was about to give up and die because they would smoke their cigarette, the only thing that was of value that could be used for bargaining for food and medical care etc.
This is awesome. Please more of these
I enjoyed all this, this flurry of words! But it’s circumambulation. When Heraclitus says “The most beautiful arrangement in the cosmos is a pile of things poured out at random” it goes straight to the point, “the still point of the turning world.”
The moments that reference Jordan Peterson were very insightful. JBP put me on phenomenology. He referenced "Ecological Approach to Visual Perception" a lot
Ohhh, Joe Folley! Brilliant to see him doing so well. ❤
why do people so often think nihilism means you cant have hypothetical meaning its so weird and deters so many people from the view for no reason
Because as a nihilist, you have to constantly remind yourself that nothing matters. Doesn't matter how much happiness or joy you feel in the moment, you must remind yourself that it's worthless.
Birth of your child? It doesn't matter. Getting a raise at work? It doesn't matter. Achieving fitness goals? It doesn't matter.
People are not meant to operate in this way so that's why nihilism is an awful mindset to have.
@@zahubshahid7944 you just did what i said people were doing. no you dont, you dont have to do any of that you can have subjective meaning under nihilism all it is is the denial of objective or categorical meaning, am a nihilist and i dont have to remind my self of anything, am perfectly happy and fulfilled in my life
@@advanced8625 when life sucks, being convinced of the nihilistic position isn't great.
@@zahubshahid7944 I completely agree with you on this one. In a way, it can be refreshing to put into perspective certain 'failures' (if you are not able to get kids, you can always say it doesn't matter anyway) but it also takes away a lot of joy when certain 'goals' are achieved.
I suffered from this perspective a lot the last couple of years when certain goals were achieved. How do you personally deal with this?
You said hypothetical meaning, not subjective meaning. Those are two different things. @@advanced8625
I understood Sisyphos' punishment to be: There is an exit at the top of the hill which he believes he can reach if he gets the stone to the top. So he could be seen as happy not because he sheds the need for meaning, but because he's doing a task specifically with meaning: Esacpe. He just does not know he won't make it.
Loved the ending about the genuine discovery you two made about the spectrum of nihilism and all things
Joe Folley’s constant passive noises of approval and enthusiasm when Alex is talking like “hmm. Yes! Uh huh. Yeah!” sound indistinguishable from NPC dialogue noises in games in non-voice acted dialogues haha
I know it may be depressing but I’d like to hear the discussion of whether or not it to take your own life taken more seriously or at least dive deeper into that question.
Take it or leave it, either way it ultimately doesn't matter, so it's just personal preference.
What’s there to consider? Well only the entirety of your current and potential future experiences and the weight of moral consensus and supposedly divine edict.
Your analysis of your boxing matchups are spot on lol
Thank you both for your compelling, constructive and thoughtful contributions to humanity. ✌🏽
I am so curious to this one. I have to admit that I am under the shadow of nihilism the last couple of years and I hope that the smartest thinkers in the world can help me.
I would say that it is premature to have a position of certainty such that nihilism requires. In the meantime, I would love to see more people directing their faith towards something tangible. I believe "Freedom for all humans" is the best target for our worship.
@Bluuuud i have videos making my case and I would be happy to discuss it. The short version is that all humans appear to already judge Good and Bad through the lense of freedom and consent. Maximizing every human's ability to make choices without necessity, coercion, or constraint is likely the only goal we can all functionally share.
@Bluuuud it's not possible to prove it and I am not trying to. I am suggesting that it would be better if everyone believed it. Which is what I meant by putting your faith towards it. If more people choose to believe in and work for freedom instead of thinking of it as an entitlement to use for their personal gratification then I suspect we will all get more of what we actually want out of life.
@Bluuuud Indeed, freedom and consent are very localized metrics, both geographically and temporally, by which Good and Bad are and have been judged by humans, and the suggestion that they are in any sense "universal" is ludicrous.
@13:53 Interesting to note that the sense of vanity as futility is still preserved when we say something was done “in vain”
1:14:01
i cannot watch any longer, and i cannot turn my head,
i am all across the sliding scale and somewhere else instead
I won't stop asking for Bernardo Kastrup until you get him on the podcadt 😇
As someone who absolutely can’t stand Bernardo coupled with the deep personal satisfaction I receive every time I get to watch Alex poke holes in the ideas and beliefs of the loudest most convicted… sign me up too! Yes please! Although I feel it would be a little bit of punching down (not that it would necessarily be adversarial) for Alex, I would definitely enjoy and appreciate. Having said that, I’ll like and comment on every post you make in solidarity and agreement!
@user-wn1kq8jx5q really? You don't like his arguments from arrogance?
@@uninspired3583 I just laughed out loud in a super quiet space hahah. I was honestly expecting someone to be attacking my comment not agreeing 😂🙌 I even went as far as watching two “debates” of his since posting that comment in case maybe I was being to harsh or misremembering but nope, I stand by what I said and i appreciate what you said hahah
@user-wn1kq8jx5q the wierd thing to me is that he uses all the same concievability arguments to tear down materialism, but his own theory has all the same emergence problems materialism has plus some new problems in showing how dissociation works. It seems to me like it's just materialism with extra steps.
I'll give him credit here though his fan boys are enthusiastic.
Talking about the sameness of valuing nothing to valuing everything - I just love the Chinese principle of relativity. Listening to Alan Watts on this stuff is great. I guess it struck me as really familiar that these two ends of the spectrum really are the same exact thing. I've told people for a while that everything is priceless. It's free, worthless, invaluable, all at once.
The vibe in this podcast is TOP
the two titans meet...
Our efforts to find purpose are like pushing a boulder uphill with no end in sight.
Waw, after seeing this I realize why I'll never get to this level of understanding. I just don't have the enthusiasm and excitement to nerd out over this stuff like them 😄 but lovely to see the excitement though 😊
This guy is great! He’s like a smiley alex with adhd
This Folley character seems interesting. Very quick thinker, likely a bit of ADHD as well.
Nihilism as in “phenomena X lacks intrinsic value” opens the the door to genuine compassion.
Something I've never seen covered in UA-cam nihlist / is-ought related videos is the middle ground developed by philospher's like Philippa Foot that use Aristotelian metaphysics to argue for a quasi-middle way between purely secular Enlightment and full on Thomas Aquinas theistic metaphysics. I'd love to hear someone unpack that.
Two of my favorite philosophy UA-camrs! Today is a great day
I would say that Ecclesiastes is an exercise in adopting a nihilistic narrative point of view, in order to call it into question at the end. It is the perspective that prevails throughout most of the text, but the nihilist doesn't have the last word. In that sense it is Shakespearean. It reminds me of Jacques in 'As you like it' - the cynic who claims to see through everything, and who therefore remains on the outside of the final celebration
Agreed. It's 3/4 good, then basically becomes theistic at the end.
If I recall correctly, vanity originally referred to emptiness/hollowness. The metaphor flows quite easily from this. Someone who's only concerned with the superficial must be in a sense hollow inside. Same for meaninglessness. It's often described as an empty feeling.
Got excited when I saw the thumbnail because I thought he was talking to the host of The Nietzsche Podcast. But looking forward to getting to know more about this pod and host!
They really struck a chord with the final section about how from an outside perspective the two ends of the nihlism spectrum becomes a horseshoe. As a Layman, I have no idea if it's novel in philosphical literature but I'd love to hear you dive into it.
This is lovely. Thank you, more please.
Coolest mustache man with coolest ideas =nietzche
That nihilism discussion with Rachel Oates and Rationality Rules seems like it was so long ago. Alex has grown a lot since then.
1vs1 with Destiny. The college dropout vs the college graduate
anything with destiny is a complete waste of time.
@all-caps3927 you're being too hyperbolic
destiny should worry about not lusting in women's dms before he tries to have another debate
i like destiny but alex would probably own him on the topic of philosophy
@@codeinetceteraWhy would you like destiny? He’s a giant POS
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. This conversation referenced a lot of people.
My unsolicited advice for joe? 🙄 .....slow down and gather your thoughts 😂 the fast presentation style works great for the rehearsed material but in conversation it causes too much stuttering. Calm down a bit 😂
I watch this mans channel. He is an excellent communicator and creator.
You guys sounded like best friends, I'd love to see more collaboration
I really liked Joe's energy and passion
Stirner certenly fits the bill the most, as his book opens with 'all things are nothing to me'. What makes it difficult is that stirner puts value onto subjective meaning, and dismisses "objective" meaning, begging the question if a nihilistic statement about things having no meaning is refering to objective or subjective meaning.
If its subjective, then we might as well call Camus an nihilist in the same vein. If its about objective meaning, then Stirner would dismiss that notion outright. Or atleast in so far as conventional philosophy would characterize it.
"this is objectivly good because i like it" would be a classic Stirneresque joke, and the same could apply to nihilism, in the sense that his subjective nihilism, could be conceptualized as an 'objective' nihilism , if only as a joke.
On the topic at the end on hierarchy, just my input, but my friend and I often discuss prioritizing. I believe this best fits, because priorities can shift mid interaction and the suddenly the ceiling may take more of my focus than the person I'm conversing with, neither of which may have changed much in meaning, just my priority on which holds more of my interest changes. So I'm not fully sure if that is what the conversation was driving towards, but that's where my mind wondered while you guys were having that discussion.
As always I enjoy the podcasts, even the ones I don't agree with.
Small point on Ecclesiastes, instead of meaningless it's better translated as evanescent, ephemeral it has this quality of vapor which is fleeting and ungraspable. Such it is with this life, it may be valuable and even beautiful, but the pleasures of this life cannot be grasped and used as a foundation to live. That is the thing that is the main message I think, as Augustine might have said, the transient cannot take the place of the eternal. Once the eternal is there then true joy is complete. (Don't go for the dopamine hits basically)
wow i didnt think id see these 2 together, cant wait to indulge in this discussion