I agree with your opinion on Grail Knights, however I don't think it was the best showcase. Lizardmen player really made some questionable decisions during this match, like simply letting his kroxigors fight and die against Alberic and his goon squad alone for no reason.
According to testing, the main culprit of the grail knight issues is actually the entity size change from medium to large. It seems to do something with mass/pushing interactions and the timing of attacks when charging; it also allows them to initiate charges despite still being in melee with enemies (As chariots and monstrous units, which also have the large entity size, can do). Combined with their increased acceleration, which is very high for a large entity size unit, they practically just don't slow down when moving through infantry.
Yeah, I'm fine with changing Lance formation, but Grail Knights/Guardians are actually fun to use now. If they do nerf stats, hopefully it's a multiplayer exclusive change.
Yes This, actually having a reason to use grail knights in campaign is great, low key tired of ever fun powerful unit getting nerfed into uselessnes because of MP, fix the push through and jack up their cost but don't make them useless again
@@TheeChaste fell like all units are good in campaign, unless your playing very hard then the only good units are missile spam so IMO MP balance is more important due to every single unit being good if you put skill points into it. With higher difficulties archers are the only good unit and thats a campaign exclusive problem so IDK what to do there
@@PangolinLuke that would be true, if when "Balance" units they don't end up being trash, and yes every unit in campaign can be good, but i don't want to spend my whole campagin around 1 unit spending points should for making them Super strong not useable
I was testing grail knights and guardians against a Slaanesh opponent recently, and they were bowling through just about all infantry on display, but as it was mostly daemonettes and marauders, we didn't pay it too much notice (worth noting that the grail knights ultimately lost against the daemons though, when the charge wore off, they got cut to pieces). But seeing temple guard get bowled over like skinks definitely gives me pause for thought. Though I wouldn't go overboard with any nerfs, they're meant to powerful for a reason. 3:22 I don't know if I'm on board with upsizing the units, that's kind of something specific to chaos knights. I honestly don't think that much needs changing, their stats and profile seem pretty good for what they are.
I must say though, Infantry not existing to the Grail Knight and them just ignoring missile fire is probably the most lore-accurate any game has gotten in the portrayal of the Grail Knights.
If they are buffed, people will complain, if they are nerfed, people will complain, i think they are in a nice spot and is too early to nerf them anyway, we should wait at least a month
@@leonidasmachado2210 Too early? It's been out for some time already, Bretonnia is S-tier faction on MP. Playing as any infantry focus faction is just a chore when trying to deal with Bretonnia since you can't catch them. Good luck wasting your magic on slowing them down. Hope they did not bring 2 or 3. Even if you do, they hold their own so damn well because of that 15% damage reduction, so you cannot buff up Demi-Gryphs with magical attacks to slice them. Instead, they now lose to them. As in terms of lore accuracy, Grail Knights are neck to neck with Blood Dragons, yet the latter cannot replicate what the Grail Knights can do. I am going to be honest though, it is somewhat satisfying to see this on Grand Campaign, but this has no right being on Multiplayer. This Pull Through BS is something I thought we left behind on Shogun 2.
@@leonidasmachado2210 there more broken then bullcentaurs and can be healed you need to be dense to think we need a month of testing to confirm there op
When CA decides to buff or nerf something in the future, they should always have a guy in the end who would only let half of that to go in to the final implemation.
I genuinely think they should keep it. Warhammer is all about legendary units and characters being overpowered. I myself am a lizardmen main and I feel the slann lacking due to them being the most powerful mages lore wise. But I genuinely enjoy this change and find the multiplayer battles vs bretonnia being more fun as you now really feel like you are up against the very best cavalry in the world. Makes it a tactically more challenging and fun experience.
this is how grail knights are supposed to preform lore wise, they are supposed to be superhuman and massive, crushing infantry with ease. The only issue is that they seem to ignore elite anti large infantry for the most part. if they fix that, every other change is fine.
anti-large infantry shouldn't exist anyway. Nobody gets to be monster hunter just because they wield spear or halberd. Spear and halbard are meant to be weapons meant for holding enemy back in a safe distance, not for killing large units.
@@Malignard no. Warhammer table says spear unit allows the model infantry on the back to attack across the enemy in front of their their ally, thus making spear units on tabletop dishing out more attacks in a turn, which is far more accurate and effective than whatever anti-large nonsense CA put out. Halberd Ubers on tabletop gets +1 strength instead of anti-large, which is far better since more strength on TT means more melee damage and AP. I would stick with TT because it is far accurate potty’s of historical combat than CA’s rock paper and scissor balance. CA’s balancing is an insult to TT and you are stupid to follow them.
@@odmloupi spear is effective to hunt because it can be used to attack from a distance, not because it deal extra damage. And with a formation formed by spearman, they can be form a spear wall that repel both Calvary and infantry alike, some CA had failed to represent in TWW. Clearly TWW spear units are inferior and badly portrayed because it was downgraded into monster killing specialist instead of being a defensive unit.
@Malignard That pointy stick has a longer reach than a sword or axe. What makes it effective is that for every sword facing a horse, two, three, or more spears would face the same because of their longer reach. That's what made them effective, the allowance for multiple ranks of infantry to engage whatever is engaging the first and being able to poke someone before he does with his shorter weapon.
I'm all for buffing Grail Knights/Grail Guardians, but they are definitely overbuffed right now. The lawn mower charges should be toned down a bit, especially against heavier mass units. They should definitely not have AP either, that opens a whole new can of worms: give Blood Knights and Chaos Knights AP too then. This also makes Questing Knights less unique/useful in the roster. But, traditional shock cavalry shouldn't have AP. The +30 extra armour and the new 15% ward save of the Blessing of the Lady combined is also overkill. If it were up to me: Revert AP majority change, rework blessing of the lady (30% physical resistance, but disappears if the unit routs - like Louen's champion of the lady), reign in the mass/excessive cycle charging, reduce armour to 110 (90 + barding = 110 like the other barded horses in Bretonnia's roster). Cost to 1600. Same goes for Grail Guardians (cost to 1700), no way they should have AP. Lots of questionable changes, and I'm not a fan of CA's solution of giving everything AP to make said unit viable in today's meta. The change that is perfect however is the reduced model size. Love that change, all cavalry should have different unit sizes based on their category, just like infantry has. Just my two cents haha.
I think Grail Knights should cost around 1900 and blessing of the lady should give 10% resist, Skullcrushers in other hand should be buffed in terms of their bonus vs large right now they have just 10 which is for elite shock cav just pathetic.
I think an elite cavalry unit like Grail Knights or Grail Guardians should carve through any infantry except braced spears or pikes. I have not seen what happens if cavalry charges charging Grailies.
forgot i sent this in... i should priobably add.. i believe i was about 1500 points down in this battle.. was caught swapping a few units and the timer ran out on me.. still ive fought many battles down 1k funds so thought nothing of it and still expected to win ... as well alberics trident makes up for lost funds with shear righteousness !
Comments and subreddit prove game studios probably shouldn't listen to most people on balance and game design. Some of the justifications for something that is obviously broken are Tzeentch levels of mental gymnastics.
"Yeah but its cool that this cavalry unit totally breaks the game and completely shitcans essentially every other type of unit. Thats how a game SHOULD be balanced dont you know??"
And when they get nerfed what happens to the rest of the roster? At the moment Grail Knights being overtuned is concealing the damage that was done to Bretonnian infantry when all Men-at-Arms, Pilgrims, and Foot Squires took a minimum -5 (-6 on polearms) to ld without a corresponding decrease in price. Bretonnian infantry shouldn't be good, but they are beyond bad right now. The Bret peasant horde, once a somewhat viable build provided you were willing to bring enough bodies is entirely unworkable now, leaving the faction with cavalry spam as their only option. And with Questing Knights and Knights of the Realm having both randomly lost charge bonus in exchange for no stat increases, the overbuffed GK are carrying the whole roster. When CA nerfs the Grail units into the ground--and they will, because no one at that company has ever heard of using a scalpel when there's a sledgehammer ready and available--Bretonnia will be left in a staggeringly bad place, with infantry that can't do anything, and cavalry that's now overcosted for what it can do in the roster. It's an obvious outcome and one I see few people addressing. So, call for GK nerfs all you want, but if it's really about balance (rather than the "the French should suck harder than anyone else" sentiment that I've seen stated aloud more than once) you should also be calling for an ld fix for the infantry. And possibly some changes to the other cavalry units as well. For Bretonnia to be a working faction they need to be able to do something, and ideally more than one something, and right now they can't.
It doesn't matter. The grails plow through infantry almost independent of mass. It's a unit behavior thing from the entity size, they current act like chariots and run through rather than target entities and make attacks to take advantage of CB. If you look at the knights behavior you can observe the difference between grails and non grails on live.
Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!! The grail knights are fine. Let's just ignore them for a while. Hey! Look over there.......there's an undead blob that's relying on healing!!! Everyone please go look at that.
grail knights are supposed to be the best cavalry. Not the best mounstrous "cavalry". CA just screwed bit the thing, cuz they must to extensive testing pior to releasing a patch... Not even dragons push infatary around like that. Armor is another over-buff
Reduce their cost with the nerfs everyone is begging for then. =p Look at the total tavern stats for brettonia. 60% win with like 3 other factions sitting above them AND them being the most played since the patch. Should've made sure temple guard health bar kept showing as they "phased" through....
Fixing the entity size so they can't push through everything and then cutting their health a bit would be my recommendation. They gained between 500 and 1000 health in addition to the armor buff and the move to ward save, something that also has synergy with percentage healing. Cutting them back to their prior value (which would make them average for the class rather than exceptional) would make using them leas forgiving of mistakes which I think would be ideal.
No idea why they got ward save, and armor, AND health lol. Talk about overkill. The unit completely walking through braced spears no problem is almost certainly a bug.
"they are op in lore therefore they deserve to be op in a game and push ARTY PIECES WITH HORSES" yeah lets make everything lore right cant wait for actual invincible units running around
I agree with your opinion on Grail Knights, however I don't think it was the best showcase. Lizardmen player really made some questionable decisions during this match, like simply letting his kroxigors fight and die against Alberic and his goon squad alone for no reason.
6:04 Grail Knights casually pushing around siege equipment :D
its not a bug! /s
Thou i definitely hope they do not overnerf them either. But knowing CA it may take a few months.
According to testing, the main culprit of the grail knight issues is actually the entity size change from medium to large. It seems to do something with mass/pushing interactions and the timing of attacks when charging; it also allows them to initiate charges despite still being in melee with enemies (As chariots and monstrous units, which also have the large entity size, can do). Combined with their increased acceleration, which is very high for a large entity size unit, they practically just don't slow down when moving through infantry.
Yes, that's the point, other monster cavalries' size are all medium.
@@footballtv10672 Actually, Necropolis knights are also large.
@@Matt-ln7lb Right I forgot, sorry tk
I think only removing the ridiculous ability to push throught everything would make them perfect. Keep their stats as is
Yeah, maybe tone it down to about two units
Yeah, I'm fine with changing Lance formation, but Grail Knights/Guardians are actually fun to use now. If they do nerf stats, hopefully it's a multiplayer exclusive change.
Yes This, actually having a reason to use grail knights in campaign is great, low key tired of ever fun powerful unit getting nerfed into uselessnes because of MP, fix the push through and jack up their cost but don't make them useless again
@@TheeChaste fell like all units are good in campaign, unless your playing very hard then the only good units are missile spam so IMO MP balance is more important due to every single unit being good if you put skill points into it. With higher difficulties archers are the only good unit and thats a campaign exclusive problem so IDK what to do there
@@PangolinLuke that would be true, if when "Balance" units they don't end up being trash, and yes every unit in campaign can be good, but i don't want to spend my whole campagin around 1 unit spending points should for making them Super strong not useable
I was testing grail knights and guardians against a Slaanesh opponent recently, and they were bowling through just about all infantry on display, but as it was mostly daemonettes and marauders, we didn't pay it too much notice (worth noting that the grail knights ultimately lost against the daemons though, when the charge wore off, they got cut to pieces). But seeing temple guard get bowled over like skinks definitely gives me pause for thought. Though I wouldn't go overboard with any nerfs, they're meant to powerful for a reason.
3:22 I don't know if I'm on board with upsizing the units, that's kind of something specific to chaos knights. I honestly don't think that much needs changing, their stats and profile seem pretty good for what they are.
I must say though, Infantry not existing to the Grail Knight and them just ignoring missile fire is probably the most lore-accurate any game has gotten in the portrayal of the Grail Knights.
If they are buffed, people will complain, if they are nerfed, people will complain, i think they are in a nice spot and is too early to nerf them anyway, we should wait at least a month
@@leonidasmachado2210 Too early? It's been out for some time already, Bretonnia is S-tier faction on MP. Playing as any infantry focus faction is just a chore when trying to deal with Bretonnia since you can't catch them. Good luck wasting your magic on slowing them down. Hope they did not bring 2 or 3. Even if you do, they hold their own so damn well because of that 15% damage reduction, so you cannot buff up Demi-Gryphs with magical attacks to slice them. Instead, they now lose to them.
As in terms of lore accuracy, Grail Knights are neck to neck with Blood Dragons, yet the latter cannot replicate what the Grail Knights can do.
I am going to be honest though, it is somewhat satisfying to see this on Grand Campaign, but this has no right being on Multiplayer. This Pull Through BS is something I thought we left behind on Shogun 2.
Idk temple gaurds were supposed to be immovable walls
@@leonidasmachado2210 there more broken then bullcentaurs and can be healed you need to be dense to think we need a month of testing to confirm there op
Grail knights were okay but people really overstate how powerful these jackasses were in lore
When CA decides to buff or nerf something in the future, they should always have a guy in the end who would only let half of that to go in to the final implemation.
I genuinely think they should keep it. Warhammer is all about legendary units and characters being overpowered. I myself am a lizardmen main and I feel the slann lacking due to them being the most powerful mages lore wise. But I genuinely enjoy this change and find the multiplayer battles vs bretonnia being more fun as you now really feel like you are up against the very best cavalry in the world.
Makes it a tactically more challenging and fun experience.
this is how grail knights are supposed to preform lore wise, they are supposed to be superhuman and massive, crushing infantry with ease. The only issue is that they seem to ignore elite anti large infantry for the most part. if they fix that, every other change is fine.
anti-large infantry shouldn't exist anyway. Nobody gets to be monster hunter just because they wield spear or halberd. Spear and halbard are meant to be weapons meant for holding enemy back in a safe distance, not for killing large units.
@@Malignard no. Warhammer table says spear unit allows the model infantry on the back to attack across the enemy in front of their their ally, thus making spear units on tabletop dishing out more attacks in a turn, which is far more accurate and effective than whatever anti-large nonsense CA put out. Halberd Ubers on tabletop gets +1 strength instead of anti-large, which is far better since more strength on TT means more melee damage and AP.
I would stick with TT because it is far accurate potty’s of historical combat than CA’s rock paper and scissor balance. CA’s balancing is an insult to TT and you are stupid to follow them.
hmm i guess all those people using spears to hunt large animals for thousands of years were all wrong XD
@@odmloupi spear is effective to hunt because it can be used to attack from a distance, not because it deal extra damage. And with a formation formed by spearman, they can be form a spear wall that repel both Calvary and infantry alike, some CA had failed to represent in TWW. Clearly TWW spear units are inferior and badly portrayed because it was downgraded into monster killing specialist instead of being a defensive unit.
@Malignard That pointy stick has a longer reach than a sword or axe. What makes it effective is that for every sword facing a horse, two, three, or more spears would face the same because of their longer reach. That's what made them effective, the allowance for multiple ranks of infantry to engage whatever is engaging the first and being able to poke someone before he does with his shorter weapon.
No precious Skinkies were harmed in the making of this video.
I'm all for buffing Grail Knights/Grail Guardians, but they are definitely overbuffed right now. The lawn mower charges should be toned down a bit, especially against heavier mass units. They should definitely not have AP either, that opens a whole new can of worms: give Blood Knights and Chaos Knights AP too then. This also makes Questing Knights less unique/useful in the roster. But, traditional shock cavalry shouldn't have AP. The +30 extra armour and the new 15% ward save of the Blessing of the Lady combined is also overkill. If it were up to me: Revert AP majority change, rework blessing of the lady (30% physical resistance, but disappears if the unit routs - like Louen's champion of the lady), reign in the mass/excessive cycle charging, reduce armour to 110 (90 + barding = 110 like the other barded horses in Bretonnia's roster). Cost to 1600. Same goes for Grail Guardians (cost to 1700), no way they should have AP. Lots of questionable changes, and I'm not a fan of CA's solution of giving everything AP to make said unit viable in today's meta. The change that is perfect however is the reduced model size. Love that change, all cavalry should have different unit sizes based on their category, just like infantry has. Just my two cents haha.
I think Grail Knights should cost around 1900 and blessing of the lady should give 10% resist, Skullcrushers in other hand should be buffed in terms of their bonus vs large right now they have just 10 which is for elite shock cav just pathetic.
I think an elite cavalry unit like Grail Knights or Grail Guardians should carve through any infantry except braced spears or pikes. I have not seen what happens if cavalry charges charging Grailies.
while I don't dare playing brets in multiplayer, the early turns in the Fay campaign are just hilarious
forgot i sent this in... i should priobably add.. i believe i was about 1500 points down in this battle.. was caught swapping a few units and the timer ran out on me.. still ive fought many battles down 1k funds so thought nothing of it and still expected to win ... as well alberics trident makes up for lost funds with shear righteousness !
this kind of overbuffing wouldn't be needed if they just released a proper Bretonnia DLC
Keep it, most fun the game has been in a long time.
But...but...muh lore
i think acceleration nerf is only think they need. armor is fine imo let them be beasts as they are in lore. ^^
BuT ThE LoRe if the game was lore accurate the slaan should be able to kill entire army's then and the skaven should out number everyone 100 to 1
@@esukgfjyijlgul5335 ok and i said nerf acceleration cuz that makes them broken as they are right now. so your ButThe LoRe makes no sense.
I think there ought to be a bigger difference between heavy cav and shock cav in their stats to force them to be used differently
Comments and subreddit prove game studios probably shouldn't listen to most people on balance and game design.
Some of the justifications for something that is obviously broken are Tzeentch levels of mental gymnastics.
"Yeah but its cool that this cavalry unit totally breaks the game and completely shitcans essentially every other type of unit. Thats how a game SHOULD be balanced dont you know??"
And when they get nerfed what happens to the rest of the roster? At the moment Grail Knights being overtuned is concealing the damage that was done to Bretonnian infantry when all Men-at-Arms, Pilgrims, and Foot Squires took a minimum -5 (-6 on polearms) to ld without a corresponding decrease in price.
Bretonnian infantry shouldn't be good, but they are beyond bad right now. The Bret peasant horde, once a somewhat viable build provided you were willing to bring enough bodies is entirely unworkable now, leaving the faction with cavalry spam as their only option. And with Questing Knights and Knights of the Realm having both randomly lost charge bonus in exchange for no stat increases, the overbuffed GK are carrying the whole roster.
When CA nerfs the Grail units into the ground--and they will, because no one at that company has ever heard of using a scalpel when there's a sledgehammer ready and available--Bretonnia will be left in a staggeringly bad place, with infantry that can't do anything, and cavalry that's now overcosted for what it can do in the roster. It's an obvious outcome and one I see few people addressing.
So, call for GK nerfs all you want, but if it's really about balance (rather than the "the French should suck harder than anyone else" sentiment that I've seen stated aloud more than once) you should also be calling for an ld fix for the infantry. And possibly some changes to the other cavalry units as well. For Bretonnia to be a working faction they need to be able to do something, and ideally more than one something, and right now they can't.
Just a tought but buffing kohleks mass could be fun.
I think for campaign its fine but for MP its problematic 7:46
Then again I mostly watch MP rather than play it myself.
the change is fun, come on !
Has anyone tried stone ground stance spell against grail knights yet?
It doesn't matter. The grails plow through infantry almost independent of mass. It's a unit behavior thing from the entity size, they current act like chariots and run through rather than target entities and make attacks to take advantage of CB. If you look at the knights behavior you can observe the difference between grails and non grails on live.
@@spellbound1875 tried it first
Dread saurian lasting all of 5 seconds in a fight is really just sad
They been sad since the beginning :(
Very cool unit that you use as an emergency garrison unit via the RoR system.
I would rather them get a cost increase. But, nerf their accelerating and nothing else. They should feel strong AF
Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!! The grail knights are fine. Let's just ignore them for a while. Hey! Look over there.......there's an undead blob that's relying on healing!!! Everyone please go look at that.
grail knights are supposed to be the best cavalry. Not the best mounstrous "cavalry". CA just screwed bit the thing, cuz they must to extensive testing pior to releasing a patch... Not even dragons push infatary around like that. Armor is another over-buff
Keep the funny lawnmower or riot
No nerf.....
....only grail knight
Bret players can have their fun for now
Grail knights and guardians will be rightfully nerfed
Reduce their cost with the nerfs everyone is begging for then. =p Look at the total tavern stats for brettonia. 60% win with like 3 other factions sitting above them AND them being the most played since the patch. Should've made sure temple guard health bar kept showing as they "phased" through....
Nah Grail units should be buffed more. FOR LIEGE AND LADY!
Fixing the entity size so they can't push through everything and then cutting their health a bit would be my recommendation. They gained between 500 and 1000 health in addition to the armor buff and the move to ward save, something that also has synergy with percentage healing. Cutting them back to their prior value (which would make them average for the class rather than exceptional) would make using them leas forgiving of mistakes which I think would be ideal.
No idea why they got ward save, and armor, AND health lol. Talk about overkill. The unit completely walking through braced spears no problem is almost certainly a bug.
Tune down the AP damage, less so the mass.
It's NERFING TIME!!!
they deserve to be overbuffed. they are supposed to be superhuman anyway.
Yeah, just increase their value and that's it
"they are op in lore therefore they deserve to be op in a game and push ARTY PIECES WITH HORSES" yeah lets make everything lore right cant wait for actual invincible units running around
I'm loving the overwhelming grail knight support! Justice for Bretonnia!!!!!
If we balance by lore the chosen and aspiring champion should do the same here
@@joeyawiki3315 they do when you have in mind they're 16 models per unit