Cleaning up the "dirty" sine wave from a non inverter generator. This is part 1, proof of concept.
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- Опубліковано 9 чер 2020
- I have not been able to find any videos on how to "clean" up the "dirty" sine wave from a non inverter generator. This is how I did it.
By the looks of it, the output from that generator is pretty decent. "Dirty AC" is not always as bad as it sounds. Sure, inverter generators are better, but it doesn't mean that non-inverter generators are necessarily bad. So called "sensitive" electronics will tolerate all but the dirtiest AC. By "dirtiest", I mean spikes exceeding the allowable P-P voltages, etc. You see, the great majority of electronic devices use switch mode power supplies (SMPS), which is roughly what you were trying to emulate. SMPS takes the AC voltage from the utility or generator, rectifies it to high voltage DC, converts it to high-frequency AC, and then dropped down to low voltage DC that actually powers the device. There's a lot more going on like PWM and feedback circuits for regulation and control but suffice to say, your electronic devices won't even 'see' the kind of AC waveform your generator is putting out. All it gets is regulated DC from the SMPS.
As for your experiment, you're limited by the amount of power the charger and the inverter can put out. If we can assume that the charger can do 10A @ 12V, that's only 120W. If you pull 300W from the inverter, it will run down the battery and the charger won't be able to keep up to charge the battery, much less supply the load. But the elephant in the room is, you can only get a max of 300W (albeit, for as long as the battery lasts), even though you have a generator that can provide over 20x that.
This, as stated in the title, was part one "Proof of Concept". Check out parts 2&3 for my final set up. You're correct about the generator having a cleaner sine wave than I expected. That is why I only ran a 1500 watt inverter to my more sensitive electronics (can't be too safe in my opinion). The 1500 watts proved to be over kill as I am drawing less then 200 watts currently. Can run a lot more equipment if need be. I would tie the generator into the main panel with a proper set up but am not sure how to avoid damaging the leased solar system.
Side note about smps, is that the higher frequencies allow for much smaller transformers (in isolated systems) or coils in buck/boost.
So long as THD is below 20%, things should run without issue and as you said, It's the p-p transients that really kill things.
Inverters are much more efficient at lower loads also. Good info on the video and your addendum
@Orly Palomar, Jr. ....Seems you fully understand the technology and know what you're talking about. I agree the AVR in the Predators make their output pretty "decent".....not inverter quality but not bad either. So here's my question---> what constitutes delicate electronics? Seems my laptop has an inline transformer that with a simple plug configuration change ....can take 120V/60Hz or 220V/50 Hz. Is such a laptop "delicate electronics"?. What about smart TV's ? Microwaves?.... electric ranges and other appliances and their controls? Serious question.....we hear about delicate electronics but what are these and can they be supported by a normal generator? Thanks !!!
My quess exactly.....that "clean" inverter power is necessary for "delicate" electronics....is overhyped. Causes us consumers to be fearful and then spring $$ for new, replacement inverters gensets. It's more a matter of voltage "Spikes" rather than how pure the sine wave is produced. I see this fear repeated all the time but how many post actual "fried electronics" happening to them?
@@d.s.steele3100 put a solar charger between the generator and mains/ existing solar system. it should prevent overharging youre solar system. if its a mains solar system then would assume it is equipped in a way that the generator will not damage it. why the hell would you lease a solar system xD ??? solar systems should not be thought about it takes 20 years to pay back. just bite the bullet and buy a system. now you have free energy for decades and you dont need to pay bills. or atleast you need to pay less on monthly basis and can be happy about it. different story if you take a loan to buy a system. then you will pay prolly the same as just buying the eelectricity.
THanks for posting this! Really useful :)
YW
Part 2 posted if you're interested.
I'm having exact issue you have. Literally no one can tell me and I can't find a way of cleaning up the sinewave on my 2400 watts petrol generator? I have the same multimeter/oscilloscope. Actually a good little unit as I do a comparison test of household power and generator power. My household power is a little dirty but my generator looks terrible. Lol. I power up my generator with a 300 watt industrial fan hooked up and turn the switch on. When I checked the power point with the Mustool meter? It does worry me especially when I use my window aircon. I'm gonna do your trick! Absolutely marvelous job. Subbed and liked 🙂👍👍👍.cheers from Australia. Btw your sinewave is beautiful comparing to mine. Mine looks ridiculous. Lol.
Do you have a store along the lines of Harbor Freight in your area? When I started this project there were no high wattage output inverter generators at a price even close to the approximately $1500.00 I spent putting this system together. Check your area for inverter generators in the power level you need. You might find that it is close in price and a lot more convenient to use. I am going to hold on to my set up as long as possible because California in all their total stupidity is outlawing all new small gas engine sales starting in 2024.
@@d.s.steele3100 we don't have harbor freight in Australia but I can go to camping stores but they charge an absolute fortune! I can order from EBay but sometimes it's a gamble with certain items. Sellers over rated items and I have bought for example 2 350 watt solar panels. When I tested them ? 240 watts each. So I ordered 2 more but solar is a little unpredictable as in maximum power one minute and clouds appear and a few amps only I put extra heavy cabling. I need to buy MPPT charge controllers but price? But the generator with a sound proof box ( sort of) will run on an oily rag. Lol. Cheers for the quick reply!
Great video on what a non-inverter generator waveform looks like. Not too many YT'ers have done this. These non-inverter generators are really only good for power tools, heaters, fans, lights, motors and basic appliances that have no electronics. You very well demonstrated what you have to do to get some clean power. Best to just go out, pony-up and buy a proper inverter generator for the sensitive stuff. Then you can power anything you want.
Problem is I haven't found an inverter generator over 4KW peek capacity. I need at the least 5.5KW running capacity 6.5 peek. Even my refrigerator has an IC board so I need clean power to all parts of the house. once I get my system up, my total cost will (hopefully) be some were near $800.
Part 2 posted, you might be interested. A note: Harbor Freight Just released a line of inverter generators up to 9KW all less then $2000.00.
@@d.s.steele3100 Looks good. With big-capacity inverters getting cheaper it's now a matter of getting an affordable bank of deep-cycle batteries to match the power of the inverter.
I don’t know much about them, but my house caught fire, I lived in my driveway with my wife in our camper from January 3 to August 20 something, used nothing but a HF Predator generator, cable box, router, iPhones, laptops, you name it, tv’s, PlayStation 4, nothing so much as had a hiccup, used little buddy heaters, still using same stuff, ran generator 24/7
DS, I really liked your video. I want to do the same thing but at a higher capacity. The cleaner DC signal is a byproduct of your batteries acting like a large capacitor, not because you're sending power through your batteries. You're actually going across your batteries. Electrically there is no difference between the output of the charger and the battery bank it's self if truly connected in parallel as you say. The batteries act like a big buffer for larger loads. I would love to see how this progresses and thank you for sharing!!!!
You're right about the the batteries function. I miss spoke on that one. The car charger was proof of concept, it got way too hot for continuous use. I am looking for a 12v power supply that can handle up to 1 kw constant draw with out over heating. I may have to build my own using a heave duty transformer, diode bridge and capacitor. Am still playing with different ideas before settling on a finished set up.
D.S.Steele I was looking at that as well. I had seen some 100 amp power supplies for $175 dollars. When I get back to my laptop I will forward you the link.
@@M35a2guy: I have looked on Amazon and asked questions about weather they would work for my application. Most have shied away, I believe as a result of product liability issues.
@@M35a2guy: An addendum to my last reply. It looks like a converter/charger for an RV will work. Something like the PowerMax PM3-100, sold on Amazon might do the trick.
If your still on this thread I would like it if you can try to explain to Josh Josh why the step down to 12vdc then back to 120vac and why the batteries are used as a buffer for line ripple. I've tried and failed, maybe you can do it better. I,m using batteries instead of a capacitor so I can get a couple of hours with out the generator if needed. Your help would be appreciated... thanks.
PS, Once money loosens up i'll be picking up that 100 amp RV power supply and a couple of Bestek 500w pure sign way inverters.
I've heard it's better to use deep cycle batteries for this process were those just normal 12v car batteries? and for expense sake you can use golf cart 6v so to recreate this gotten 4 deepcycle 6v batteries ran parallel. I'm thinking of making a big battery bank in conjunction with generator/ solar / wind for the whole house year round essentially trying to get "off grid" I think that the line conditioner inverter battery bank combo is the key. What do you think?
I used 2 Ever Start non sealed deep cycle marine batteries (barrowed them from my boat). If I recall they were about $90.00 each. They are rated at 100 amp hours each. That is about 2400 watts of power off a full charge. how long they will last on a charge depends on how much power your drawing. Check the power rating on those cart batteries to compare against regular deep cycle batts. Take note: if they are 6 volts each, you will need to hook them up in a series/parallel setup to get the 12 volt for the inverter. Solar, wind good idea. Generator uses a lot of fuel ( I'm using mine only when PG&E cuts power on red flag days). Lastly figure how much power you need at night and size the battery bank accordingly. Assume the sun is down, no wind and the generator broke. you will need a minimum of 10 hours of power off those batteries.
Part 2 now posted. Using much higher wattage components.
Definitely agree to using clean power on fridge. Cost me a stand up deep freezer
Almost everything today has "electronics" as a part of it. Your refrigerator, your washer/dryer, microwave, Of course, TV and stereo, but also likely your heat pump or AC system. And as these loads go on and off the generator load changes and so does the harmonic distortion level.
I have a 15KW generator that feeds the whole house. I have a surge protector on the panel and a few local protectors on the 82" TV and Dolby receiver, and everything seems to be ok after several generator uses. If there was a filter for my generator that was reasonable cost and would reduce distortion at varying loads, I would get it.
Thanks for your comment. What are the local protectors you have? Something like 30 MFD capacitors plugged in parallel at the TV wall plug or power bar?
Part 2 is now posted. This will be my operating set up. Part 3, final setup is also posted.
not sure if you guys gives a shit but if you're bored like me atm you can stream pretty much all of the new movies on Instaflixxer. I've been watching with my gf these days :)
@Jaylen Skyler Definitely, I've been using instaflixxer for years myself :D
You have a great idea here.
I might do a similar thing with just a few hundred watts pure sine inverter to run sensitive electronics like internet, computers etc while I use the bulk of the dirty power to run my freezers and refrigerators.
Also, I like to run a 50/50 mixture of gasoline/kerosene with additives to boost octane to keep the running costs down to a minimum
See parts 2 and 3. I've used the set up a few times now and it works well.
@@d.s.steele3100 I will do 👍
Thanks for sharing
I've been thinking about building a 12 volt battery bank with a good inverter onto a handtruck then I can use it as portable power for small jobs or hook up my 1980 3.5hp tecumseh 1250 watt generator for long term use to keep it charged. Hopefully give the small generator a chance to keep up with the 6 freezers in the garage.
Was thinking about buying better generator but I'm not convinced newer generators can sit few years and start up, produce power, and not have any issues.
Having portable power without carrying gas and oil seems like a good idea anyway or maybe even use it as quite power source for night time use at camp grounds then charge it up during the day with generator😉
Check out Harbor Freight's Generators. The Predator generators are a clone of the Hondas at 1/3 the price. As for start up and/or storage issues, use Sta-Bil or similar in gas that will sit a long time also run your generator 10 or 15 minutes every month or two. That will keep the engine and other parts loose and lubed. If your actually running 6 freezers that's a lot of watts. My upright freezer draws 550 watts running and probably twice that at the start up surge. Take that into account when planning your set up. If those freezers do not have any fancy electronics (LED lighting , touch screens, ect.) you can get away with a non inverter generator. Lastly Harbor Freight has a 4000 watt (peek) inverter generator for about the same price I paid for my 6500 watt unit. I paid around $450 for mine. PS: I'm not paid by Harbor Freight, I just like their prices compared to quality.
If you're interested part 2 is posted.
Pretty cool 😃😃😃 Thanks
Thanks, Redoing part 2, will be reposting on 4/15/2021 about 2000 hrs. PDT>
Part 2 posted if you're interested
I have cheap little 1000w gen. It has a 12v out. If i run that through a Pure sine wave inverter . Wouldn't that clean it up ?
Check my part 2: I had to put a voltage regulator on my 12 volt outlet to keep from "frying" the inverter with an over voltage from the generator. Also in my case it was rated for 8 amps only. That's about 96 watts, not much. If you put too much load on that 12 volt outlet you'll be popping the circuit breaker/fuse constantly
Have you considered getting a automatic voltage regulator? I found that it’s a simpler way than having to convert from ac to dc and then back to ac
The voltage regulation is the function of the line conditioner that prevents voltage spikes. As you can see it does not prevent wave distortion under load. That is the reason for the step down to 12 vdc and back up to 120 vac to "filter out" as much distortion using the batteries/capacitor as possible. A lot of your sensitive electronics want that "clean sine wave".
I have a 4000 watt champion generator that in our last power outage I just plugged in my TV, computer and internet. I'm glad I didn't fry my electronics. I'm new to using a generator and it did cross my mind that the power wouldn't be safe. I did Buy a transfer switch and everything to hook up my 8750 to the house just in case but since I'm just renting I will wait until the grid goes down. Thought I was good but now I'm off to figure out how to do this safe.
If you are renting, in my opinion, I would not spend the money on tying into the electrical panel. That might possibly open up a can of worms with the owner. As of about 3 weeks ago Harbor Freight released a new line of inverter generators (a year too late for me) up to 9000 watts. If you purchased the 8700 recently, it might be a inverter type already. I posted parts 2 and 3 recently. They might help you in configuring your setup. One other thing, check out using UPSs (Best Buy Amazon, ect.) instead of my set up. If I had it to do again, I might have gone that route instead.
Just buy a UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply) Backup Battery unit that produces a sine wave. CyberPower or APC have a few that will clean up the 120v coming out of the generator and all you have to do is plug it in to one of your 15A 120V generator plugs. Majority of UPSs do this by always being on battery power even if it has clean power going in to it. Depending on the size you get (1500W SineWave CyberPower is around $180) you’ll be able to power your more sensitive, or more valuable devices with peace of mind. Everything else with less electronics can be plugged in directly to your generator. I live in CA and outages are normal under liberal green policies. I’ve used this method for years on my non-inverter generator and haven’t lost a device. I’ve ran an air fryer, induction cook top, and fridge directly from the generator, and everything else like StarLink, and computers on the UPS on the same generator at the same time with no issues. I have other smaller inverter generators as well that makes it more convenient for moving around, and balancing out power usage. You know you’re doing something right when your tree hugging green new deal climate activist neighbors asks for power and internet access in an outage they had a hand in creating. 😂
Did not know about UPSs when I started the project. With 20/20 hind sight I would have used one.
Lost power for 3 days a couple months back when a car took out a string of power poles and transformers. Ran off the generator during the day and the deep cycle batteries at night. The generator is a bit noisy so I didn't use it at night (good neighbor policy).
If you want to get away from the libs, move up here to Amador Co. We're one of 19 CA. counties that vote red.
PS: Check google maps and see that solar disaster surrounding the old Rancho Saco power plant. A whole lot of good farm and ranch land going to waste.
I tried connecting that to my gas generator but the lcd screen won’t even turn on and the red light that says wiring fault is turned on
Great problem-solving, but by the time you figure in your cost for batteries inverters and the time it took you to figure it out and go to the store 50 times you probably could invite bought an inverter generator for about the same price and not worry about all this
First see parts 2 and 3:The final set up.
In part 1 I used things I already had on hand. For the final set up I purchased most of the pieces I needed at one time off Amazon. The group 27 battery was Walmart and some other hardware parts, Lowes. I made a parts list for the non Amazon purchases and made one trip to get them. The generator was a great sale price at $499.00 and I had a $50.00 coupon so it was $449.00. My total expenditure on my system was just over $1,000.00. At the time I started this project inexpensive Inverter generators with any real power output weren't available. Harbor Freight changed that in 2021.
For any one in California get your gas powered equipment now as the liberal snowflakes have banned the sale of small gas engines under 25 hp starting in 2024.
All so there is the cost of replacing the batteries every so often. They do not give them away any more so to speak. While it is one way to do things the batteries will require being looked after. If the electronics will not tolerate the generator I doubt they would survive a few surges as the power blinks off and on during power line problems.
I ordered a generator with 12v battery charger output, can I hook an inverter straight to this to smooth out the signal?
The 12 volt outlet on my Predator Generator is only rated to 8.3 amps (100 watts approximately). Also I learned the hard way that mine was putting out 19+ volts. I found this out only after I smoked a in car inverter. You don't want more then about 14 vdc going into the inverter. If it is more, you will need a voltage regulator between the generator and the inverter.
If you're interested, part 2 is now posted.
I'm posting an addendum to this post. If you don't understand basic electricity and electronics both AC and DC, DON"T TRY THIS!
Just wanted to toss this out since I'm educating myself on going totally of the grid someday. There are kerosene operated fridges out there... Very interesting if you ask me. They are costly, but you won't have to rely on supplying energy to a fridge just add kerosene and you all set to go.
@@CarlosRamos-qf8pr: Have you considered using an RV refrigerator/freezer? I believe propane would prove to be cheaper and safer than kerosene. Moderate sized (10 or 20 gallon ) tanks aren't too expensive and are portable enough for you to transport and fill. Also if you choose to go with solar, wind, or a small hydro generator, propane is a good back up for a stove, 20 gal. hot water heater and the RV fridge.
I hope you upgrade to a 1 to 2kw pure sine wave inverter. Floating ground is fine, no need to attach to breaker panel. Also, think about a 200 amp hour LiFi (expensive, but worth it) battery. And a "Big Ole" battery charger.
This was part 1, proof of concept. See parts 2 and 3 for my final setup. You'll see I used a 100 amp power supply/charger and 1500/3000 watt inverter. I started this project before Harbor Freight came out with their line of inverter generators. If I were to do this now I would buy one of those as they are half the price of other brands of equivalent power output inverter generators.
“DIRTY POWER” is measured in sine wave. I have 28 years doing this as a usiness and my grandfather etc. also 60hz is standard here in the states. I have 28,000 watt portable generator I bought from one of my manufacturers at wholesale (so what it cost to build plus 4.5%) its a 28,000 watt generator and it is rated at less than 5% THD ACCORDING TO. OTH MY SINE WAVE MACHINES IT MAKES 3.83% THD. When you see a thd advertised it means that’s what you’ll bet running it hard … I also hook these and massive diesil cat generators for hospitals and banks etc etc.
Your over thinking about wave sine , DIRTY Sine Wave DOESN'T HURT ELECTRONICS (Read Below ** ) Voltage Spikes Damage Electronics , Generators Without a AVR (Automatic Voltage Regulator ) and Brushless Generators are the ones that Can Damage Electronics because they have No Safe Way of Regulating the AC Voltage Output when a load is added and removed they can drop to under 100Volts and Spike to high as 150+V that is what will Damage your Electronics , A Quality Generator with a AVR is Ok to use for Electronics , I use a Generac RS7000 Here in FL when the Storms come and Power is Out and have run all my TV's (NEW LED TV's ) Radio , Home Computer , Charge Cell phones and have Never had any go Bad from being powered from the Generator . Yes a Inverter Generator is Best if you plan on running your electrics for a Long Period of time MONTHS or If your off the Grid . The Real Big Advantage of a Inverter generator is it can run at lower RPM'S and make way less Noise which is ideal in a Camp Ground & it uses less Fuel
** Electrics Run ON DC Voltage the power supply first thing it does is convert the AC volt to DC Voltage and has AC Metalized Polypropylene Film Capacitors & Line Chokes to clean the AC voltage before its converted to DC voltage and has DC voltage Capacitors to clean the DC Voltage .
Thanks for your comment. My new furnace won't run off of my Powermate generator, so there must be more to it then what I know.
👍
This is exactly how i charge my 24v solar batteries with gas dirty power generator i plugged in a 75amp 24v battery charger wired to batteries then have a 3000 watt pure sine wave inverter into cabin makes it to where no dirty power get into the cabin outlets while charging and using inverter at the same time
So this cleaning up of the ac circuit by passing it through the batteries, and that's why you curbed guy batteries in parallel.
You see thinning the cleaning up happens in the batteries, and that's not true. You're not cleaning up the AC power: you are taking so called dirty power and making 12VDC out of it. So this dirty power is no longer in existence, for you have changed it to direct current. It matters not how you connect the batteries as long as they give the right voltage for your inverter. The sine wave coming out is clean because the inverter is making it that way, not because of some filtering
my way (yet to be fully tested as house renovations still in progress)
is a 4Kva server UPS, generator to UPS then power to all my needs, which also allows time to refill tank when it runs dry as the UPS has three massive battery packs (weighs a LOT) (picked it up off a computer forum for $60 an absolute steal)
45x 5Ah batteries in three 180v packs, I once ran a clothes drier as a test on it for an hour and only used 10% of the battery life.
dropping down to 12 and back up to 120 is very lossy, but if that's what you have, then it's better than nothing.
same principle
ua-cam.com/video/rXHnRtFJjFg/v-deo.html
Am trying to do this as cheaply as possible. Living on a fixed income. Your setup sounds to be way more efficient than mine. Thanks for the input and good luck. PS: Maybe you can post a video when you get it up and running.
@@d.s.steele3100 I too live on a fixed income, so I feel your pain there.
I regularly watch various sale forums and tech forums and sometimes auctions for cheap goods that I can repurpose for save as much as I can.
when the day finally comes that I can integrate the UPS into the house wiring I will be doing a video for sure.
oh another though to check into, ewaste facilities, they may be willing to sell old UPS systems instead of scrapping them, worth a look at least.
hope you manage to find a good cheap option to improve your efficiency.
love it this is something i would do.. but i had a idea what if u just hooked up a basically extension cord cut the end running from the generator plug the positive and negative into a 4000 w inverter.. u basically got a inverter generator then what im thinking for way less
If I am reading your comment correctly, you are saying to run the 110/120 vac from the generator to the input side of the inverter. Most inverters are set up to convert 12vdc to 110/120 vac. If you push 120 volt into the inverter you will end up with a smoke bomb. On a inverter generator the step down to 12vdc back to 120vac is all done internally. If you are thinking about using the 12vdc (cigarette) socket on the generator there are two things to consider. 1: The 12v outlet is only made to handle a little over 8 amps. or just under 100 watts. 2: I burned out a cigarette plug in style inverter because the actual voltage output was 19vdc from my generator. Put a voltage regulator between the generator and the load to prevent an over voltage burnout.
@@d.s.steele3100 what if you use a high wattage extension cord from the generator cut it to where neg and positive cords show.. and hook it up to a 4k watt inverter
@@d.s.steele3100 what u think about this idea.. u think hooking a 4k watt inverter to a 4k generator would work?
@@memotank2089: Again, check the recommended input voltage and if that input is AC or DC. AC is not positive or native, IF WIRED CORRECTLY, the black or red wire is the "hot lead" , the white wire is your common/ neutral lead and the green or bare wire is ground. On an AC circuit the voltage goes from 0 volts to +120 volts back to 0 then to -120 volts 60 times a second (that's in the U.S., in Europe it's different). Again IF WIRED properly DC is a straight flow and AC is, for lack of a better description, kind of a back and forth flow. The two are not compatible with out electronic intervention. Remember 4kw@ 120 v= about 33.3 amps but 4kw@12 v= about 333.3 amps. With a 333 amp. flow, you better have a cable the size of your forearm.
@@d.s.steele3100 im not talking about hooking anything up to batterys.. just stright from the generator to a inverter both rated 4k watts .. alot of inverters use a positive and negative for the input ... it be the same as household extension cord is i think dc.. if the generator and inverter both rated 4k watts.. and just get the electricity powered from the generator to the inverter wouldnt that be fine ? i didnt say anything about kw only 4000 watts .. usually ppl say 4k for 4000
To address your comment, "I'm not as interested in the dc sine wave," you are aware that the is no sine wave in dc, just a straight line! The sine wave is the direction of the ac reversing direction!!
What I was showing was the slight ripple (noise) that filtered through from the generator and power supply. If you look closely in part 2 you can see the small distortions in the dc part of the setup. Although only millivolts it was there. Ever heard that background "hum" on speakers? The battery acted like a big capacitor and got most of the distortion but not all.
Or you could just buy a Honda EU 2200i which is clean efficient and has a perfect sine wave output. High reliable. Purchased 10 in 2017 to deliver to Hams in PR after Maria.
When I started this project Harbor Freight had not released their full line of inverter generators yet. If I had weighted a few months I would have gotten a 6500 watt inverter unit for half of the price of the Honda generators and my experience is that they are just as reliable. Replacement part are also much less then Honda parts. With the 6500 I can run the whole house except the central air.
Note: In 2024 all sales of new gas engines under 25 HP will be banned in California so back up generators will be a thing of the past leaving us at the mercy of PG&E again.
Don't talk to me about solar either, I have it and it is a waist of money.
How much did you pay for those 2200 watt Honda's? $1260.00?
The Predator 2000 watt inverter generator is $620.00 and the 9500 watt unit is $2400.00. were the Honda 10,000 watt generator sells for $5500.00!
Also I run my house 14 years with Generac go17500e and NEVER. Rome the thresholds of 5%
If a generator is well maintained the sin wave good enough run smart devices.
Should have bought an inverter generator and saved a lot of time and money !
Read other comments and my responses on parts 1,2 and 3. You will see why I did it this way.
Now if only you can convert a 400v Tesla Car Battery voltage to run 120v household devices without completely tearing it down to 40-50v modules. You would make millions.
Actually it could be quite easily done with a step down transformer...but why? You still have to charge the battery pack(s) either off a charging station or some form of home power generation.
@@d.s.steele3100 you would still need an inverter for dc to ac at those voltages
@@ChatGPT1111 would be cheaper to buy ALOT of 12v batteries than tesla lol. lead acid is way better for NON mobile applications as the space and weight is not of importance. one can pair those 12v batteries in series and parallel just like lithiums so you end up with desired voltages. then for both you need to have an inverter big enough to supply you the required AC output. basick lead acid batteries are simpler and safer to charge, can be charged with a cheap chinise solar charger and a normal charger will be alot cheaper for them. for lithium you need a smart charger and normal solar chargers will set youre house on fire..when the lithium batt die you need to buy a new one. as its super dangerous to use bad lithiums. with acids its not so fiddly as every car owner knows ...
Electrical Engineer here you are limited by your battery charger. You will also lose a lot of power in your conversion. I wouldn't recommend it.
what would you recommend then?
Sounds like an engineer to me . Quick to point out problems but never has a solution 😂
Since you only have a 300 watt sine wave inverter why not just buy a tripp lite line conditioner or a small 179 dollar inverteer generator?😊
see parts 2 and 3
A lot of efficiency loss in this method.
You're correct, unavoidable efficiency loss through the DC part of the setup is a fact. Low voltage same watt draw equals high amps with much thicker wires. That's why the #2 wires from the power supply across the battery to the inverter in parts 2 and 3. If you haven't watched those parts, they will show my final setup.
@@d.s.steele3100 Actually I was referring is the Power Factor losses going from the generator120VAC to 12VDC [power supply] AND the sinewave inverter going from 12VDC to 120VAC. That represents two stages of power conversion where at each stage there is a significant loss one of them being in the form of heat.
I just bought a Predator 9000 and was thinking about the same thing. [Only I am dealing with 240VAC] The ides is to take a sine inverter that accepts a 240VAC input. There would still be some power loss in the conditioning but at none in the form of stepping down and then back up the power. I couldn't find one. The only path i could see is to take a replacement part sine wave creator from an actual generator made to produce clean sine wave output. Then there is the cost factor. The generator I bought for $699 on sale is now $849. The Predator 9500 clean sine wave model is $2,199. That's $1,349 difference. How much would a sine wave replacement part from a 9500 cost. Is the generator portion on the 9500 the same as the 9000? In that the generator portion both put out the same voltage? Maybe they both do use the same generator portion but the difference is in the regulator. Making the 9500 generator put out 260VAC while the 9000 puts out 240VAC.
The reason for the different voltage requirements is that the sine wave device needs a greater voltage input than what it is designed to put out. In this case 240V... This is so that the sine wave creator has some input voltage headroom so that it can regulate a stable voltage output. [240VAC]
Even if you could regulate your generator to put out the needed higher voltage [260V] to drive the sine wave creator properly. Then how much would that cost? [$$$] More than $1,349?
I likely would be cheaper and simpler to just bite the bulled and buy the inverter model for an extra $1,349.
Then there is this issue...I have been repairing electronic devices since the early 80's. All the way up to today [There is no better way] every electronic device runs on DC voltage. Usually lower than the line voltage. [Very rare to step up the AC line voltage to a higher DC voltage]
The two methods for this is...
1. Transformer
2. Switching Power Supply
In both cases the AC power comes in and is converted to DC. [Right after the transformer and immediately in a switching supply.] This is done with a Bridge Rectifier [Package or discrete diodes] and then sent to a capacitor to be stabilized thus providing flat DC signal.
The point I am making here is that the cleanliness of the AC sine wave isn't as important as they make it out to be because it gets converted into DC right away inside electronic devices anyway.
The REALLY BIG ISSUE with standard generators is the risk of POWER SURGE. The key is to make sure that ANY electronics you care about are plugged into a quality power surge protector.
@@DrHarryT: Run a scope on that 9000, you might find that the sign wave is "cleaner" then you think. My 6500s (120 & 240v output) sine wave was much better then I expected even under load from a high torque drill motor. If so a line conditioner might be all you need to prevent voltage spikes. If you are powering a stove, dryer, AC, ECT., you may find a 240 v line conditioner through a industrial supplier. Remember the control circuitry on those "heavy" appliances is only 120v. Only the heating elements and/or compressor/fan motors are 240v.
If you check the voltage on my generator from it's output through to the inverter output there was almost no change. My concern was the wiring in the 12 vdc part as 1000 watts at 12vdc= 83+ amps were as 1000 watts at 120 vac = 8.3 amps. Again watch parts 2 and 3 for my finished setup.
@@d.s.steele3100 My main point is that there is and always will be energy loss in power conversion. [That is called "PF" = Power factor.]
If you check...Pull 1000W off of the sine wave inverter, then check how many watts are coming off of the generator and it will be something like 1100W...You loose 100w in the two stage power conversion. [120V to 12V back to 120V]
[You put in 1100W but only get out 1000W] That would be a 90% power factor in your system.
I repeat...
[You put in 1100W but only get out 1000W] That would be a 90% power factor in your system.
Check...Start the generator and then put a load on the sinewave inverter... Hook a watt meter between the generator and the 12V power supply. Then move the watt meter to between the sinewave inverter and the load. Maybe use a hair dryer or toaster.
You WILL find the 12VDC power supply using more wattage than the hair dryer is using.
You don’t need that ‘conditioner’ you really are loosing so much efficiency
Try spelling it correctly , sine NOT sign. You may get more likes.
You're right, my error. Corrections being made. TY
You can use charger directly to inverter...
This is true but the batteries serve two functions. 1 they help to smooth any ripple/noise off the charger acting like a big capacitor and 2 they are used as back up power when the generator is off. The two I used would give about 200 amp hours of power from a full charge.
@@d.s.steele3100 Right, but must be noted that the available pure-sin power is that given by DC charger, 10 Amps/12Volts, no matter how much supports the inverter... Thus, the rest of energy is from batteries...
I solved the same problem my home, I divided all devices and electronics are sustained from an 1KW pure-sine generator-inverter, and the rest by a classic generator, having the advantage that one of these two units must start, at last, in winter...
You can maintain your arrangement, but have to take directly from generator the energy for resistive devices and for electronics from inverter, only! Thus, your 12VDC charger will be protected...
LONG basic information POST - PLEASE IGNORE IF YOU DON'T WANT TO WASTE YOUR TIME
This isn't really a video about cleaning up the distorted output of the Gas Generator. It is just a way to use dirty AC to top up DC batteries for ultimate sine wave inverters. It is a little difficult to see what, exactly you have connected into the house, if anything. I don't see why you have the generator going to your house ground. It would be better to connect it to a ground rod. If the generator fails and the case becomes hot, you are relying on the house to be properly grounded. Not a good thing. not necessary either. Many people with generators attach them to the house using a double ended transfer cord. The problem with that is your house is still connected to the AC grid. When a lineman tries to work on a downed system, they expect the system to be dead. Depending on how many step down transformers are between you and the lineman, they may "see" 120vac or many thousands of volts if you are pumping your generated voltage onto the grid. So as long as you unplug your house from the line when the power goes down (see Generlink etc) or isolate the circuits you want to run during the outage (see Transfer Switches) everyone will be safe and your system will be legal. Plug your generator (inverter or otherwise) into a wall socket, and you are likely to kill someone.
One thing about wave distortion to consider is the total distortion "under load". Some of these Chinese Inverters are pretty sketchy. Their wave form often distorts badly under load.... and it depends on what kind of load (inductive vs resistive). I had hoped that this might be a youtube video on how to electronically smooth the output. A really good line conditioner can adjust frequency (ie exactly 60hz), amplitude (voltage that are exactly 120vac) and any distortion of the wave form. They cost many thousands of dollars... often used by audiophiles.
Just to clarify, you might not know that what you are hoping to be "pure sine wave" is only an approximation of mains supply true sine wave. The inverter is using "Sinusoidal Pulse Width Modulation" to approximate the true sine wave you are looking for. The quality of the sine wave coming out of the Predator is a function of many things... it is truly a sine wave, but noise comes from things like the brushes that are common with cheaper generators. Brushless Generators are much more expensive initially, but easier to maintain. Higher initial costs, but cleaner power. They may also have multiple phases, just like the mains supply.
You might want to check this site out. www.absolutegenerators.com/blog/brushed-vs-brushless-generators/
Sorry for the length! :)
1. the instructions said to ground the generator for safer operation (I agreed). If you review the video you'll see the provisions I made for a grounding rod. Also I made sure the house circuits were all properly grounded. There was only a grounding wire from the inverter to the wall outlet. No hot or neutral wires were attached from the inverter to the wall.
2. I have a line conditioner on the system, it does a good job protecting against voltage surges but does nothing to fix sine wave form. Check what happens when my 1500 watt electric heater kicks on.
3. There was an electric fan plugged into and running off the inverter when I tested it for sine wave form.
4. I have more sense than to hook the generator directly to the electrical panel. If I hook up to the house circuits, I will install a switch (breaker) that shuts off the power coming from the utility lines when the generator is in use. I'm partly solar powered (unfortunately no battery back up [way too expensive]) which makes hooking the generator to the house electrical panel much more complicated (read expensive). Will probably run a couple of independent circuits to power my kitchen and family room.
5. Again the batteries serve two functions, first to act like a big capacitor to smooth any ripple in the dc current, second to give 3 maybe 4 hours of battery power if the generator has to be shut down for any reason.
(I have EDITED OUT a comment I made about advertising ... I was wrong and stand corrected).
As I mentioned else were this set up was proof of concept. I will post the finished setup after time and money allow. I have priced out what I need and my total investment should be close to $800.00. much less than an equivalent inverter generator.
@@d.s.steele3100 sorry to burst your bubble OM, but I'm a physician from Canada :) I have NO commercial interest in anything I mentioned. Sheesh... one question that might be worth asking, and I know you'll know the answer. Is your Generator a "floating ground" or a "Bonded ground"? sorry if I ticked you off... but get it straight.... there is no commercial link to me.... not directly, incidentally or obliquely.
@@en2oh "Bonded ground" to frame. I will not run the generator with out being grounded as GFCIs will not function. As for the comment on commercial interest, I stand corrected. I will correct my first comment.
@@d.s.steele3100 no sweat. didn't mean to be rude... just seen a few electrocutions in my day..... they didn't do well on a good day - but with COVID, we may not even see them in the ER. BTW, you know that since the internet, we often get most of our exercise "jumping to conclusions!" :) Stay healthy! and thanks for posting your efforts on youtube....
@@en2oh: Waiting on 2020 tax refund and after paying some bills will build a 1 to 4 KW finished system. Trying to come in under $900.00 U.S. total investment. Easy to do at 1 KW output but prices go up fast as you increase power output.
Have not been able to find a inverter type generator close to this price point with equivalent power output. That is the reason for this build. At the time of purchase the Predator 6500 was on sale for $499.99 plus I had a $50.00 off coupon dropping it to $449.99.
Under normal expected load, the generator will be running at 1/2 capacity. That should give me about 14 hours before I need to add gas to the 8 gallon tank. I will post a video of my finished setup, good, bad or ugly, on UA-cam. I will include what my total cost of the build was.
This is all very unnecessary
It's a dumb video because if you're generator is providing you dirty power then you walk to get the generator fixed not start fasting around with batteries and inverters and everything else. A decent Pure wave inverter will cost you more than the generator it's just not worth it it's just not a very good video I'm sorry it's just not practical.
Generators with build in inverters are a relatively recent product. Before the advent of sensitive electronics a perfect sine wave wasn't needed.
A lot of people have older generators that did not have inverters. This is an option to be able to use those older generators.
In my case this set up cost me less than half of what an equivalently powered inverter generator would have cost. I did not need "clean" power to the entire house, just to the computer and associated equipment and one TV.
Lights and my non electronically controlled fridges and freezers can run on less then clean AC.
When you plug that inverter into the wall your batteries become live I’m talking 120 V AC no your electricity was a sketchy ⚡️⚡️⚡️🔥🔥🔥
1. Recheck the video. I only ran a single GROUND wire from the inverter to the ground on the wall plug. There were no wires hooked up to either the hot or neutral/common tangs on the plug. If you look closely you will see some green tape wrapped around the orange plug to denote ground only. This was an easy way to get a good "earth" ground using the existing house wiring. To repeat there was no power on that wire from the inverter just a convenient way to ground it.
Look at my part 2. You will see how I only had a ground wire in the wall outlet.
waste of time but it would be cheaper just to buy a inverter generator.
Watch parts 2 & 3 and read my responses to other commenters. Yes Harbor Freight now has a 8750 KW generator for $1199.99 on sale and their 9500 KW generator is now $2299.99. They did not exist when I started this project.
1st thanks for the vid. 2nd and I think most important U should never wear jewelry when messing with electric! 2nd Thats about the worst battery charger and batteries{they wont last as im sure u found out} u could use. Please next time close ur garage door THANKs
Agreed, should have taken the watch off.
This first part was proof of concept not the final set up. See parts 2 and 3.
I've been using that charger since the late 70s for charging batteries and it still works as well as the day I bought it.
I get 7 to 10 years out of those lead acid batteries and don't have to worry about a lithium-ion battery catching fire if (when) it over heats.
You do have to have the lead acids well vented because of the possibility of hydrogen outgassing and hydrogen sulfide gas if you over charge the battery.
Remember hydrogen needs an ignition source were as lithium-ions can spontaneously combust.
you are loosing alot of gasoline using that system
This is strictly an emergency back up when we lose power. It's primary function is to save food in the refrigerator/freezer $400 to $500 worth. Gas is cheap compared to having to replace spoiled food. See parts 2 and 3.