Roger Griffin, former leader and 20 year member of "Twelve Tribes” Authoritarian Cult
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- Опубліковано 3 січ 2022
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I have watched every single one of the interviews on this channel and they have all been fascinating and impactful, this one was no exception. Your guests are so honest, thoughtful, and intelligent; I'm thrilled they were able to escape the situations that held them captive. Thank you Dr. Hassan for your work - it matters and makes a huge difference in this crazy world!!!
Thank you so much for this interview, Roger. Your love for your wife is so admirable. My own marriage didn't survive us leaving, because my *Roger* was unable to discard the damage that was done to our marriage. He didn't fight for me. You did the right thing.
Thank you for sharing your life experience Roger 💜. I became a JW, left after 33 years, where I was introduced to Dr. Hassan’s work & started thinking outside the box 📦. It never ceases to amaze me how similar yet different all these cults are, & that we truly believed all the BS they spewed.
Wow I'm so glad for your work Dr Hassan, and your amazing story Roger. I believe the "outcasts" are the real brothers, so that might make us brothers. I myself have been intervening after devoting a decade to the community. My tribe was Yoceph in California, and I was known as Labeshu Lev Yeled. Now I formed a deprogramming method as a psychotherapist. The key is the very scriptures that help us process the trauma and discern the lies from the truth by prophets and apostles who prove that the deli crew are being deceived. My experience has been a testing process of learning to love my enemy by praying for them and confronting them with love and word, as much as I have.
I was there in "74" I lived in the men's house. It was called the vine community then, I also worked at the Yellow Deli, I think it was on Brainard st. next to the massage parlor. I have two sisters still there and two that have left before Roger and Joellen Rodgers wife. I will not say things I know on this sight but I will leave you some names that are still embedded in my memory...
David Martin
Dickey Cantrell
Eddie Wiseman
Gene and Marsha Spriggs
Bill Tiller
David Jones
Mike Ryland
Sally Sheldon and Mike Davis
Joanne and Jananne Sheldon
Ray Stephen's
Ronnie and Gary Corter
Cliff Daniel's
Joe Dunklin
Pat "Hasah" Sheldon
Joellen Stille Rogers ect. I am glad I did not stay long enough to get brainwashed!
I visited for a week or 10 days and stayed in the communal house in 74 or 75. I helped carry cement block and wood to help build the Aereopagus. Gene Spriggs gave a talk in the main room of the communal house. The room was lined with flagstone. I feel confident I met you and these people. I was part of a group of committed Christian teenagers and young people from Columbus, Ohio, visiting the Yellow Deli perhaps to view it as a model for us. Rogers memories about the group are very familiar.
I did not live in community with them but was with them for several years '74-'76 on a more informal basis - attending two years of bible studies that Gene conducted early on and hanging out with them at the Delis. They encouraged me to move in with them but I never did. I liked fellowshipping with them but I could see they worked everyone constantly that did not seem cool.. In the early years, they were very standard evangelical christians. I still refer to them as "The Vine House" -- at that time it was a more relaxed group who fellowshipped with other Christian groups and churches and were more of a para-church organization. Then, Gene decided to make them a church and withdrew their members from attending other area churches; and from about 75/76, Spriggs message went from "grace" and "love" to "W"e" are the only valid "expression" of he Body of Christ in Chattanooga. And from that point, his message became less about Jesus and more about the Community. Gene went from being just Brother Gene to an "Apostle". I can remember Gene - in those early Jesus People days - once teaching that there is a danger with any group of Christians going from living under grace and love to some form of The Law; and that is exactly what happened to the group. They became a hyper-authoritarian, controlling,, exclusivistic personality Cult. I left fellowshipping with them icy '76 because they had become so negative. Fortunately, I had other christians in the area I fellowshipped with and so I was never dependent on them.
BTW, I am familiar with many of the names. I knew Eddie and Diane (later "Mary") when they first joined. And still had contact with them up until 1980 before they all started moving to Vermont. I remember DIcky Cantrell, who is now deceased. I knew David Jones and Bill Tiller. Tiller left and I understand he has passed away. I knew Cliff Daniels - who for a while was Gene's right-hand man until they had a falling out. As mentioned in this interview, Spriggs was in poor health before he died. I have heard that he some type of dementia for the last five years.
I used to live with this group and it's sad that these people spread their vanity and pride! Deep down this man knows that his pride, like mine, welled up and caused him to leave! I still have children with this group and I left because of some of their stands! Once the younger generations take over it will be better I believe!🤠
People should be scrambling to come together in communities and build a new break away society of people laying down their lives for their FRIENDS and not mammon! Combine resources and secure water sources and start growing food together 💪🙏🤠
Thanks a lot
I was on the bus manyvtimeon the Grateful Dead lots in the early 90's. Good food! I was intrigued by the dancing. I remember stopping to watch them dance as I was heading into the show to dance. I have some core tour memories that include the "yeshuas" Once, I was on the bus, sitting at the kitchen table eating something very yummy, talking to an older guy...maybe you 😂 and there was a young couple. The girl looked very meek, ling hair, harem pants, long calico shirt. Her husband looked like a clean cut Deadhead. Somehow we were talking about kissing or something and the young man got so angry and said he hadn't even held his wife's hand until they were married. That anger put me off. Another memory was a beautiful sister sitting on a blanket at Buckeye Lake campground. She had all her possessions on that blanket. She was selling everything because she was leaving after those shows to join the Yeshuas. She seemed so peaceful, so serene. Her Bible lay at her feet.
They would stand outside the shows as we got out and hand out their magazines. Often the images were of Jerry and Bob, to draw you in. But I remember reading them and being put off.
Still, I was talking by phone and writing letters with a woman at Island Pond. I jumped off Phish tour and stayed at a hippie house outside of Burlington. My goal was to head up to Island pond. They could meet me at the bus station or something. My mom refused to send the Western Union money. I had told her my plans. This was before the internet, so there was no way she could have known who wanted to get myself into. 😢
Anyway, long story short, other stuff happened at the hippie house that made me feel like I needed to get out. J called a friend to come get me. He was there the next day.
We've been together for 28 years now ❤❤ We did get heavy into very conservative Christianity, which im now pulling back from and examining my own thoughts. Reclaiming my own authority and my own heart.
Funny enough, it all started to fall apart when I began to "let" myself listen to the Grateful Dead again after an almost 20 year hiatus❤
Watching these videos makes me realize just how much worse I could have had it!!!
I wanted community SO MUCH. I wanted meaning in life that was more intensecthan the typical secular American existence. I was a searcher, a perfect recruit for the Yeshuas, or any strong believing, world rejecting sect.
I remember Roger. I was living in St. Joseph, Mo. when he moved to Arizona.
Hey Roger! Long time no see! Good to see you
Wow
I would enjoy talking with this man and compare notes
Few things that came to mind when I visited them and by the way, I certainly felt a calling or attraction to them when I encountered them back in 2018. 1) Their view on Acts 2.44 and Acts 4.32 is a bit skewed. For one, the people sold possessions that they could and placed the money to the apostles so it could be distributed amongst those who did not have and were in need. The verses also mentions sharing posessions including homes but this did not negate owenership. Actually some of the homes TT stay in are under individuals name. I am not entirely sure the entire arrangement but thats how they do it. Lastly on this matter, Pauls letter indicate individual people and family did own houses in thr letter to Corinthians as he address communion ettiquete. So the entire notion that one must sell their posessions and liquidate their assets seems to be taken out of context to promote their version or agenda. 2) Who is Jesus or as they call "Yashua". The name Yashua by most scholars is a rendition of Yehoshua or Yeshu'a. Most likely the name was not Yashua and in greek transliteration it became Iesous of the gospels(the same book the twelve tribes uses yet ignores clearly many parts and overemphasizes other parts). Tradition is key to any successfull religion and sola scriptura is as rare as finding a grizzly bear in South Georgia. The Twelve tribes have built their society on a series of "personal revelations" of Eugene Spriggs and perhaps a few other elders. They claim this gives them authority and how to interpret scripture. The Twelve Tribes are elusive about Jesus and mostly emphasize his humanity, some as far as saying he was just a man while on earth but was raised to be the Son of God through OBEDIENCE. Notice the word in all caps. This heretical adoptionist view is used to emphasize obedience to the Father and Son by OBEYING the twelve tribes and laying down ones life as a daily livong sacrifice. Lots of biblical stuff and its good yet in promoting good it denies or downplays the hypostatic union of Christ in order to promote its teaching that only through obedience to the authority of the twelve tribes and laying down ones life to the body of messiah can you be saved. 3) Teachings on race and slavery are controversial. I dont like to bring this up but the notion that Ham son of Noah was cursed is NOT biblical. In fact the curse by Noah went to Canaan. Canaanites had no relation to sub saharan africans and were most likely culturally and genetically similar to ancient Hebrew and Midianites yet were not monotheistic. The idea that blacks in america and around the world are under the "curse of Ham" is unbiblical because such as curse in nonexistent. The emphasis that slavery is a good thing and not bad is used to promote the idea of servitude over self indulgence and individualism. They will claim blacks under slavery had better opportunities and had stronger family dynamics than now. Obviously this group either willfully ignores or does not understand the history, persecution and ghettoization of african americans during the 100-120 years after emancipation and its effects on a people. A side note relating to topic one is that the letter to Philemon in the New Testament encourages but does NOT force the emancipation of P's slave Onesimus. To me this runs against the notion that one has to forsake all possessions to become a disciple and that slaves and their owners can come into the ekklesia in spite of Galatians 3. 4) Lastly many people who feel lost or rejected by their families, communities, churches often find a common cause with the Twelve Tribes. This group both feeds and feeds on lost souls for its survival. When a person joins they are supposed to forsake their old self and even take on new names and new identities. They gain attention by sincere seekers as they appear to be going all out and out do others in holiness and charity. This makes some people question their own institutions and what they previously believed and allows an avenue to work in said people. They definetly could be classified as a cult or high control group, but if you can convince lost people this is the only way, cognitive disonance kicks in and they will eat it up. I certainly did for nearly a year and it has left a wound in me to this day. Cheers, J.
all religions are delusional,
and a deception for humans
I was part of the 12 tribes for a couple years. There are realy good people there but some are not. Some times some of them can git realy out there when there tring to git ahead . Some place are better the others. I was at one place where i worked at the yellow deli from 11am untill sometimes 4 or 5 am the next moring 6 day a weak. Why the leaders worked maby couple hours weak. Please under stand some people in the 12 tribes realy are the reel thang but others are not. Some people are realy hard on there kids. I sow it but in saing that otheres where loving. The ones that realy hard on there kids most of there kids have left. and the ones you here about. But the ones that where loving to there kids most of them stayed. When you show it shows and you can see the furt of that. When you don't will it comes bake in a bad why.
My testimony is on my video titled "What happened the deli cult? Participant Observation
I have Hashimotos and if I go for more than a few days without my meds, I will shut down and yes, pretty much feel like dying or, if left without it long enough, possibly actually pass away in an awful manner! Healing can come through man means, even medication! Luke, in the BIble was a PHYSICIAN!
for me, when I'm without my meds for several days, within 15 minutes to a half hour I will be back to normal after taking my pill again. It's for real. I've had doctors tell me "oh generic synthroid is the SAME thing as name brand" and ,because they would give me generic, my body would start shutting down till I was given the NAME brand Synthroid. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE and our body KNOWS this.
I have to say it bothers me how this man almost seems to gloss over the "spankings" that happened in this cult. I have heard horrid stories of the abuses of children who are still damaged today as adults. Is it because a mind almost has to somewhat "minimize" what went on and what they themselves DID in order to go forward in life without tons of debilitating SHAME on themselves? This man was an ELDER so I'm assuming HE HIMSELF BEAT BABIES AND CHILDREN? Why is this not addressed more and why isn't he asked if he feels any remorse for the lives he was responsible for damaging?
Hi. I am from Europe. I wrote them email, but nobody answered. How can I join twelve tribes?
They don't believe Jesus is God, it's not exactly biblical. Just a thing people should know before visiting. I am still struggling since spending time with them.
@@mythacat1Jesus told me they are from satan. He gave me a wife, she is pregnant and now I live much better. Jesus is alive. We can pray sometimes together if you want.
@@emmanuellight1708 Hearing you are doing better after leaving helps. I'm glad you are having a child. Praise God. I'm frustrated that they are mislead the way they are. The people there are good atleast at the bottom of the hierarchy.
@@emmanuellight1708 I hope you are well. Jesus loves everyone of us, the head of the group decieved and was decieved.
Did any Walking Barefoot Family ever visit? While family members believe that Jesus Christ Lightning Amen is a former carpenter who went on a 40-day fast in California's Mojave Desert 10 ...Unknown August 7, 2018 at 7:50 PM recently went back to Hot Springs Arkansas to find a picture and article
Old home week between cult survivors. Funny and so horrible at the same time.
As pessoas que saíram de lá e vem falar que as pessoas na comunidade eram más Elas Não Contam quanto elas eram más e orgulhosas se põe como vítimas, eu agora mesmo estou fora de lá mas eu amo a Deus filho dele e as pessoas que se encontram lá, o fato de eu não estar lá eu culpo a mim mesmo foram as minhas iniquidades que me fizeram sair mas eu clamo Deus dia e noite para que ele me perdoe me deixe voltar Eu Amo Meu Criador filho dele espero na sua misericórdia em Provérbios diz que quando alguém vem queixar de outra pessoa você deve ouvir a outra pessoa antes de fazer o julgamento
Roger, so glad you were finally able to leave with your family. I too grew up in Chattanooga and was raised in an Independent Baptist Church. My maternal grandparents were members of Highland Park Baptist; the church which launched the Tennessee Temple schools that you attended. In listening to your story, it's scary to think that had Gene Spriggs just been more dogmatic and shaming in his response as to if your wife should go back on her life-saving medication, you may have simply groveled and gone along with his edict no matter what the consequences. Thankfully, Gene had a pragmatic, liberal moment and gave you and her an out, which no doubt saved her life. As I mentioned in a previous post, my affilation with the early days of Spriggs' group were from 74-76.
In many groups with some form of "faith" healing theology, many die through medical neglect while trying to be "obedient" to the healing teachings in the bible. Of course, having been raised in the very literalistic, fundamentalist Baptist faith, before you even joined the TT, you had already been indoctrinated in the idea that what the bible says takes priority over any other ways of looking at things. The Baptist groups we grew up in just ignored the scriptures (or had rationalized away the extreme, "hard-sayings" of Jesus so they would not be a bother to the middle-class, capitalist, Christian family/church life of America in the early 1970s); but these hard sayings and the extreme, apocalyptic, monastic vision that Jesus preached, is in the gospel accounts -- as are the faith healing scriptures too. So this is why I tell people, the problem with "Christian" cult-like groups goes back to the whole doctrine of the absolute authority of the bible.
I now see the bible as a handbook for anyone who wants to start an authoritarian, Christian cult group. What I did not know back then is that the bible is not "God's Word" (if "God" ever did bother to write anything down or inspire someone to do so). Gene built his initial "ministry" and gained support from area evangelical churches by his fidelity to "holy scripture"; but he took a more literal view of what Christian "discipleship" meant based on the hard sayings of Jesus and used these texts to gain the loyalty and obedience to himself and his doomsday/apocalyptic, fantasy vision of his little group becoming the 144, 000 true Bride of Christ! What a bizarre, grandiose vision from a former alcoholic, womanizer, carnival barker, school teacher!
Years later, after joining several other "sold out for Jesus" evangelical groups who seemed to always morph into an authortarian, cult of personality community, it finally dawned on me that my childhood Baptist church programming about the absolute authority of scripture, had set me up to be sucked into one authoritarian Christian cult group after another. the belief that my own fundamentalist and evangelical "faith" created a "cult-lite" template in my thinking. So later, when I encountered more harder "cult-hard" bible-based groups, I was easily swept into their more extreme positions because my brain was filled with teachings about serving "God" was the top priority and I am to "obey" what the bible says.
Gene also built his little TT cult kingdom on an idea of the divine call : God calls "men" to be shepherds over the flock; and one should not challenge or criticize "God's Man" or else God will get you! I heard that message throughout my childhood, Baptist church. So, it was not a big jump to believe that other cultic like groups I eventually affiliated with, were being blessed by God. Gene used the same teaching to solidify his own control over everyone in The Twelve Tribes: "Touch not my anointed and do my prophets no harm!"
In listening to your story, it reminded me that many of the early members I knew of what was then known as The Vine House or The Vine Christian Community Church (later several other name changes until they finally settled on "The Twelve Tribes" when they were in Vermont, had grown up in some kind of Christian church background; and even fundamentalist type churches. And like many youth of that time, traditional Christian churches were stiff, boring and culturally "square". With the very colorful and artistic world of the youth counter-culture , rock music, cool movies, etc. of that time, many church kids had dropped out and become involved with the excitement of sex, drugs and rock n roll. And as we know, what goes up eventually comes down. The early members of the Vine House were recent burn-outs of the drug culture. They were people who had hit some kind of major bottom in their lives. Most were homeless or semi-homeless. The colorful bohemian life of disaffected youth had lost its luster and shine and the Jesus Freak, crash-pad, then known as The VIne House, seemed like an answer.
So, this is where I ended up at:
(1) Theolgically, I am an "agnostic" who believes in practicing compassion. I now know that Jesus is not coming back. In fact, the Jesus of history died as all men do; but an incredible legend grew up around him. More than likely, Jesus was an itinerant, shamanic, Jewish Rabbi who emphasized radical forgiveness and acceptance of people and criticized his own Jewish politicians and religious figures of his day, and they killed him. I think many of the sayings and teachings attributed to him have value, but others are delusional and get people in trouble; but they sound real good and I wish life was as easy as he made it out to be. . . you know, just have "faith" and God the Father will provide ------- NOT!
(2) There is no "Kingdom of God" - except what one wants to imagine. People who try to go out and form some utopian community of pure God and holiness, eventually create prisons for people to live in while they tell each other how "free" they are.
(3) "God" does not write books but people do and then attribute their writings to "God" -- which gets them a better table at the upscale resturants! LOL.
(4) The Jews are not the "Chosen People". IF there is a "God" - why would HE/SHE/IT/whatever have favorites? Differences between races, ethnicities, etc develop over time due to the physical and social environments they live in. The idea of the Chosen People/Master Race/The Damned/The Elect, etc. is simply primitive, left-over tribalistic thinking. The In Group and the Out Group. There is no "damnation" or "salvation" - let's simply work together for the good of all. Mumbling a magic prayer or affirming a particular creed in no way secures for people a special place in the Afterlife (if there is an afterlife).
(5) "Holy Scripture" is just someone's opinion. I now believe that "God" does not write books, but people sure do! So, the bible is no different in my view that The Egyptian Book of the Dead or Aesop's Fables. Interesting stuff. Some real gems; in such ancient writings, but also a lot of old, bronze-age thinking that we have out-grown and science has made obsolete. Thus, "God" did not write/inspire the bible, the koran, the Book of Mormon, etc. People get in trouble when they try to create in this modern age an ancient world and society that no longer exists; and even what existed, probably did not exist as they say it existed.
(6) I follow the Golden Rule and live by the motto: "Don't be an Ass-hole" and be nice to children, mother-earth, and everyone, and I think that works well for me.
(7) We need to continue using the Scientific Method for finding truth and facts about our universe and the physical world. The Scientific Method has created all these amazing cures and medications - including your wife's medication that keeps her alive. Does prayer work? I doubt it. I have a little saying I now subscribe too after seeing so many people suffer and die by just depending on "prayer": NOTHING FAILS LIKE PRAYE! If you want to pray, that's fine; but do it on the way to the doctor's office and never discourage others from seeking medical help. REMEMBER: Gene ultimately died from following his own anti-modern medicine advice. How many people died as a result of The Twelve Tribes anti-science and pro-prayer stance? You noted this fact in your comments. They should still be with us but following quackery gets people killed real quick.
People give over their "freedom" to think, evaluate, criticize to authority figures too readily. The German Psychiatrist Erick Fromm wrote an entire book on WHY did the German people vote against their democratic form of government and for Hitler and his Nazi Party into power? Fromm says became "Freedom" is scary and anxiety-provoking. It's much easier to hand over the decision-making to a man or party and let them do all the thinking for you. The title of Fromm's book? ESCAPE FROM FREEDOM. I have come to believe that Cult membership is preceded by having to some degree a cultic outlook already in place; and my view is that the reason so many of us joined cultic groups as adults is because we had already been groomed in our childhood Christian churches to believe, obey and not question. A dangerous mindset that made us gullible and easy prey for the charismatic, narcissistic, hucksters who feel "God" has called them to Lord over others.
But besides all of my comments and reactions, I really enjoyed your review and story. I hope you get the chance to do more such interviews and perhaps write up your story for others to read. Thanks!
FYI: this cult has a UA-cam channel
He might have answered in the interview but is this man interviewed still a Christian?
This guy creeps me out I bet he knew the guys who raped 13 year old girls. One of the perpetrators was 35 tell me if a 35 year old man raped a 13 year old why wouldn’t you go to the police? Why stop the fbi from investigating if you’re in this tribe and did nothing then you’re aiding the abuse that’s going on