In the mid-late 80's my brother and I were skiing at Ski Apache near Ruidoso, NM. We were at the top of the mountain and saw a MIG-21 being chased by an F-14. They were carving the valleys *below* us. Absolutely unforgettable.
A friend and I were hiking in Black Canyon a ways below Hoover Dam, about halfway down to the river, when a pair of fighters ran a chase down the canyon ... below us. By the time we heard them coming and grabbed hold to the wall, they flashed by and were gone, no time to see what they were. Late 60s.
During the time this operation took place, I was working as a toolmaker for a aerospace company in California. This company was, and probably still is, one of the leading manufacturers in the World of aircraft transparencies, - windshields, canopies, cockpit windows, etc. Both military and commercial. Our management called our group together and told us we were going to be involved in a secret program and were not to talk about it. A section of our tooling dept. was cordoned off from the rest of the company for us to work on this project. Subsequently, some wooden crates arrived which we opened under supervision. Inside were several canopies, and maybe some windshields, can't remember, in degraded conditions. Our questions about these parts went unanswered. Our task was to restore these parts into a condition where we could take plaster casts from and create semi permanent tooling for a short run of replacement parts, duplicating the parts sent us. Being an amateur student of aviation and military history, I was curious but kept my mouth shut. But I was fairly certain these were parts from Russian aircraft. Having many reference books at home I did some research and yep, Mig 21 and 23. I had a very interesting rewarding 45 year career working at this company.
I joined the AF in 77. In 81 I was selected to the Thunderbirds. Then the T38. Our AC was on the ramp next to the Fighter weapons school at Nellis, the F5. After finishing 3 years with the team in Jan of 84 I was waiting for my clearance to reassign to the 4477 in Tonapah. I could tell stories for days but the reason I decided to comment is because of our closeness in age and you talking about fighter weapons school and the migs in tonapah. Brought back the memories. Thanks
Worked on the Tonopah test range in the early 2000s, and while I can't go into to much detail did happen to see some "exotic" aircraft while working there. But what really blew my mind was watching the air combat maneuvers while "Red Flag" was taking place. Far more impressive than anything I've seen with the Blue Angels or Thunderbirds. Really like your channel.
@johnulmer6715. Why are you afraid to disclose about the “exotics,’’ John? It’s not like you signed any NDAs or are going to spill the beans on any alien craft or the aliens themselves.
I was stationed at Nellis AFB from 1997 to 2002. I was a nurse midwife, so I delivered babies for the Air Force. I had a patient who needed a special test. She said she couldn't do it because she didn't have anyone who could watch her two young children. I asked her to call her husband to come watch the kids while she did the test. She said "That's not possible." I offered to call her husband's First Sergeant to arrange for her husband to be released from duty to watch the kids. She said, "You don't understand. That's just not possible" I said, "Make me understand." She looked uncomfortable, and in a barely audible whisper said, "Every morning my husband leaves the house for a job which he cannot discuss, at a location that he cannot disclose, and during that time he cannot be contacted." I said "Oh!" and made arrangements for one of our nurses to watch the kids so she could do the test.
I enjoyed this video. My dad worked maintenance (U2; KC-135) with a guy that was there in maintenance on constant peg. He was really proud of being part of that. Loved working on the Migs. After that he became a SR71 crew chief. He passed away last year due to COVID complications
Thank you for mentioning the maintenance folks as a maintenance guy for over 30 years I can tell you they/we work very hard to keep the jets airworthy. Also thank you for mentioning fabricating parts it’s became an art form. Great video.
Everytime I see an aircraft I'm reminded by just how incredible the maintainance supply chain must be to keep something like it airborne. You guys are the real victors, and deserve WAAAAY more credit than you get.
Alongside Mover (C.W. Lemoine), this channel has become my favorite place on UA-cam for anything aviation-related. You’re an outstanding storyteller & an incredible role model. Greetings from the Civil Air Patrol - C/2d Lt Leng
This is definitely a great channel! Aircrew Interview is another good one besides Mover and Ward. I love his Oakie interviews- Ward, did you ever serve with Keith?
@@WardCarroll - Ward fm just ☝🏼 old [74 yo] US🇺🇸AF Radar Intercept Operator - I’m taking the GRADUATE Course in... Modern TACTICAL WARFARE - taught by an Expert: Ward Carroll! Thanks
@@WardCarroll As someone who likes history and former Cold War Grunt, I'm glad you are recording your experiences as this is the sort of fine minutia that easily slips away though the cracks of time. Great stuff please keep it up.
Stationed at Tonopah for 4 years from 83 - 87. I remember riding the bus to the flight line past those Migs every day on our way to work on our black jets, it was great to hear about the abilities of the Migs, we really had not interaction with those crews. Great video brought back a lot of memories
1984/85 I was a USAF flight simulator technician. I was offered an opportunity to join a former co-worker at a new unit at a "base within a base" in Nevada. I foolishly chose to turn down the offer, and I later found out that it was the F-117 program.
05-13 controller. Had the opportunity to go to Nevada for expeditionary training. Worked on mainline identity of aircraft that didn’t present normal radar profiles
Fantastic little tidbit on how flares and IR work. I hear a lot of talk about flares in game simulators and how this missile won't be diverted, but others will. It's nice to hear some explanation about the the why and what of it.
We had CIA guys in Angola during the Bushwar we fought in the 70's and 80's,.who paid Unitas' soldiers to tell them where shot down Mig23's,Mi.24 Hinds etc, where..so they could scavenge those for parts etc. Could these have ended up here,I wonder?
You do a terrific job of telling a story. I hope that your efforts continue because lots of us were not on the inside of the programs you discuss and there is a lot of jaw dropping on my part even though I flew F-4s in Vietnam. I was a squadron commander with VMFA-232 at Red Flag and had a Marine Harrier squadron commander sent home for clipping the corner of Area 51. If the folks were that serious about 51 then I can almost imagine the secrecy at Tonapah (sp). My time was a long time ago and your program keeps it alive for me. Be well!
I was a kid, and I made one of those Stealth Fighter model airplanes (1984/1985). Well, my Dad worked at Hughes. He had to fly in to Tonopah for a day, to go to TTR. He got to see a F-117 on the taxiway as they were doing daytime operations. With his security clearance, he couldn’t talk about anything he see’s, no matter if he’s briefed into a program or not. It took him 20 years to even tell me, even with the F-117 program being declassified. He said he saw me with my model plane as a kid, and just laughed.
Thank you so much. My Father Harry ( Bob) Kroen was a Swordsman. He was a Senior Chief and very proud of his squadron. He then continued as a Leadman with Lockheed servicing A4 at Chase Field then later with Kay & Associates to Kuwait. I miss him and his stories. Thank you for sharing. It reminds me of the times we had.
Actually, there is a book titled Red Eagles, with chapters detailing the original idea of Constant Peg, setting up the squadron, acquiring airframes and a somewhat chronological history of the squadron, pilots and commanders. Good read!
Im 47 years removed from being a ADJ 3 on A-4 skyhawks. I love your content. My maintenance officer at the time left our squadron to become exec of the 2nd tomcat squadron at the time. To the best of my memory. That guy had a set of nads that was almost impossible to stuff into a flight suit. He was invebcible, don't think he knew what backing down from a challenge was. He climbed into A-4's after being totaly put back togeather by 19 yo's to test them out before others could fly them. I know that was his job. I know it was our job to make it safe for him to do so. I Think he was a two tour vietnam fighter pilot. Thank you for your post. Your expertise, proffessionalism. Men like you that climb into that cockpit now and in the past is what makes this country great.
"I think there is something else going on at Tonapah " He wasn't the only one. I have a relative who was in VFA-125, ordinance. Truck's quote, and something my relative said clicked. Filling ordinance requests for aircraft came this request for a loadout that was nothing like that in any of the inventories. Wasn't for a Bug, Tomcat, Air Force or anything that was a normal loadout. It was said, 'ah, they're testing something'. And that's as far as that conversation went.
Just an old Harrier Avionics guy, first I really enjoy the channel. Second we were out there during a red flag in the mid 80's, and I remember a pilot telling me about the debrief on the "forbidden, no way, do not ever fly over, no matter what your problem" areas with a raised eyebrow. And last what a hoot, to work on Russian aircraft, I know the Air Force wouldn't be interested in having Marines work for them, but it probably would have been worth a reup to work with maintenance group in that unit for a couple of years. Marines in aviation are no different than the ones on the ground, we pride ourselves in doing a lot with very little and coming up with the rest on our own. When push comes to shove, of course. Again love the channel.
@@Tigershark_3082 Yes! British A model, C model, and later McDonald Douglas B model. Completely enjoyed it. A nice range of old airframes headed to the boneyard and new factory fresh. Each with unique characteristics and challenges. I love the smell of JP 5 in the morning. ( I miss it). Factory automation pays well, but ..well, . It doesn't compare to a successful zero dark thirty flight ops send off after pulling an all nighter.😎
The center block of that range, including Groom Lake, is still a never-never land, isn’t it? Maybe some machines in there that resemble tic-tac’s from project “Interocitor Exeter”. 😆
That was accomplished at another location, with equipment we mostly bought outright while the former Soviet republics pulled away from Moscow and needed hard currency income.
I love your videos. This one proved a point I made for years, to my family. My father was an ex-Naval Aviator, and was an airline pilot. My point in saying this is this: both my brother and I were aviation enthusiasts (although neither he nor I ever became a pilot) and were both in the military. I was only a 0311 in the Marine Corps. I had the opportunity while I was in to see most of the aircraft in the United States inventory during my service. I had a familiarity with Soviet aircraft due to my hobbies. We always assumed the United States had a stable of ex-Warsaw pact aircraft somewhere that American pilots trained against and we always assumed that is was in Groom Lake, NV. This was primarily due to the fact that everyone else assumed the same and that the nav charts my father used had that area, specifically, outlined as a no-fly area for commercial aircraft. In 1995, I was towing a trailer through southern Nevada, in broad daylight, on a state highway. The road was empty except for me. I was lost in my own thoughts, because there was nothing on the radio that interested me. All of a sudden a obnoxious roar enveloped my truck and trailer. As I looked to the left, I saw a Mig 23 heading away from me, after passing directly overhead, probably at less than 1000 ft. AGL, and he was hauling ass. If I hadn't already visited the restroom earlier that morning, I would have done so in my trousers- I just simply wasn't expecting it. He executed a gentle climbing turn to the NW and flew south through the terrain. He was in a camo scheme I hadn't seen before, and I couldn't see any markings. I told myself "I just saw a Mig-23!", even though I didn't believe it. After about 2 minutes he passed me, slowly this time- he was about a 1500 yds. away, flying through terrain at about 1000 ft and heading N, and the sunlight lit up his camo and red star, proving I had, in fact, seen a Mig-23. I told this story for a couple of years, when conspiracy theory talk begins, and was always greeted with the rolling of eyes, even though my audience knew that those aircraft are here, and do fly. I feel vindicated.
This episode of the old series Wings of the Red Star feature a US Army test pilot who flew Hinds for the same purpose. Anyone who thinks we wouldn't try to grab enemy aircraft is not thinking clearly. And if we grab them, well we have to fly them somewhere. Good on you for noticing! ua-cam.com/video/3BXOwdjUiqU/v-deo.html
Isn't stealth the primary strategy in war ? I dont see the chinese or Russians explaining their training to all and sundry on you tube. Whether these aircraft are in use or not the thought process, the psychology of the fighter and the headspace they are in during a fight are here to study and use. In my experience strategy and psychology are important in winning and should not be shared.
When I was on the team running USAF Green Flag exercises at Nellis AFB in '85-86, we caught wind of the MiGs and the 'coded' assignments of pilots assigned to fly A7s at Tonopah... which we knew wasn't what they were actually flying. We just didn't know what else was going on. It was fascinating to find out a few years later - and of course, to watch your reminder episode, Ward. Thanks as ever.
I just found your channel and thoroughly enjoyed watching this episode. During the 1950's I served in the USN as an aviation machinists mate working on the f2h2 Banshee and then the f7u3 Cutlass, finally moving into the A4.These jets and their capabilities make a life-long impression which might explain my interest in your program format.
I recently found your channel, and I Live it. I am a former NAVY ET. I served in the USS CORAL SEA CV-43. From 86 thru 89. It very cool to hear about the inner workings of of the Air Group and the perspective of an Aviator.
I cannot even imagine how interesting the stories can be of how they got those MIGs. I am also instancing in awe facing the incredible knowledge and proficiency of the teams responsible for maintaining those aircraft, without manufacturer support, without supply lines of spare parts, and without an Amazon Prime account so they could just buy new stuff.
I am not an aviation person at all, but I found this story utterly fascinating. How little the public knows of how hard smart people work to keep us safe. Kudos!!!!
Thank you, that was very informative. I did a couple of Red Flags with the RAF and made some friends in the area of the base. I was on an exercise at Homestead in Florida a while afterwards and was invited to stay with my friends when I had a long weekend off. We had tickets to the unveiling of the F117 when it landed at Nellis.
That's pretty cool stuff. My math teacher in high school worked for Northrop in the 70s and 80s and she was put on a project with other mathematicians to create a geometric profile that could reduce radar incoming form a ground base. She said after her team finished their project, about 15-20 years later she said the B-2 was finally seen.
In 1988, the B-2 was unveiled to the World by President Reagan on national TV as it sat in front of a hanger in Palmdale, California. We watched via live satellite feed within a Northrop plant near Los Angeles. I got to work on that craft and we didn't even know what it was, nor could we talk about it, until President Reagan's presentation.
I've commissioned fire equipment at Scott and a few other AFB. When I was a kid I built the B2 model. Having them stationed in my hometown was always a point of pride. They of course never let me see one when I worked there but as an enthusiast of engineering they let me walk through a decommissioned bomber. I sat in the pilot seat and everything. I wish I'd knew as much as I've learned from channels like this because I have no idea what plane it was. Regardless, it was awesome. (maybe now they'll let me sit in a B2... JK... But seriously... I'd school girl scream if I they did.)
I always heard about the 23 being exceptionally fast but they way you described them walking the f-14 is wild. I'm just an enthusiast but f-14 and f-15 have always been my favorites by far. Something about older twin engine designs just really works for me. Thank you for your service.
I was glad to see you credit the efforts of the maintenance crews that kept the MIGs flying. This must have been a very difficult task, especially related to the engines. Soviet fighters were notorious for their frequent maintenance needs.
When the USMC did the ARMVAL exercises back in the 1980s the collection of Soviet made vehicles required 'unanticipated' quantities of maintenance hours.
I'm a retired maintainer and I'm also glad to see the shout out in this video. I always equated being a maintainer with being an un-credited stage hand in a big show, where the show would not happen without our efforts and the ones on the stage got the recognition. I'm glad to see the acknowledgement and I thank you for that!
@@timothybeardsley2715 Eh, as another maintainer, I didn't thank Lockheed for the F16 kills that occurred. We do our jobs but our jobs weren't risking our asses in the air hoping our flares worked and the missiles lock held true.
Many years ago was camped out in Four corners area of US. One night camped near a river valley. Heard a loud noise. Ran over to the valley and there was a B1 slightly below the rim. He twisted with the river then pulled up maybe a mile away. It was just at dusk. Later when at the FAA enroute center ABQ fixing a computer as a IBM contractor, Talked to a controller and he said that river valley was what was called a oil burner route setup for low level training.
As a guy in his early 20s who just finds these aspects of history extremely fascinating, I wish I had more older people around me of military veteran crop to draw stories from. If you have kids or grandkids I'm sure they must listen wide-eyed to all the stuff you have to tell them.
Yeah. I am a bit older than you and loved listening to my grandfather's WWII pacific theater stories. Wish I would have recorded them, but he passed in the early 90s.
I served on the USS America, CV-66, as a navigator as well as switching to the USAF JAG. Listening to your tactics in that exercise was spot on. After retiring from the military, I recently had to go to Luke AFB and got to watch the new Raptors take off. WOW!!!! Keep going on and tell us more.
My brother Wendell was at Tonopah for 7 1/2 years during the F-117 era. He was a logistics specialist (supply sergeant) in the 4450th TG (later 37th TFW). He believes his time there was the longest for any enlisted man. I had figured out what he was involved with, but being Air Force myself knew not to ask him about it. He called me to say watch the news on the day the unveiled the F-117.
My grandfather was stationed at Tonapah during part of World war II. He worked on B-24s mostly. I loved his stories from that time. It's great to get this info. Thank you sir!!
How anyone could have confused or compared a Flogger with an F-4 is beyond me.... lol. A lot of people don't realize there were 2 variants of the Mig-23 in the 80's - fighter and bomber. The may have looked the same but had very different flight parameters.
My squadron 70 TFS was at a Red Flag in 85. During the Red Flag one of our air crew had an inflight emergency and entered “ The Box” and had to land at Tonapah. Were greeted on the Tarmac by Men In Black and “ debriefed”. Got sent home from the Red Flag and would not talk about it. Put the Fear Of God in them.
My father was the second commander of the 4477th. I’ve interviewed numerous pilots and maintainers. Really enjoyed hearing all this from the exposure side. Thanks for the story.
@@kevinhedspeth4303Gail Peck’s book, America’s Secret MiG Squadron is also excellent, especially in regards to the origins and beginnings of the program
Ross Mulhare was killed in F-117 near Bakersfield in 1986 while practicing a SAM break at night, he got disoriented and flew into the ground. To cover-up the existence of the F-117, the Air Force picked up all the pieces of the crashed Nighthawk, then shredded an A-7 and spread the parts over the crash site.
Great video. Awesome history lesson and excellent insight into some of these elite pilot groups. My uncle was a misty pilot in Vietnam and grandpa was a navy pilot. I’ve always had a ton of respect for pilots. What an awesome adrenaline junkie job!
I am an Air Force “brat”. My Dad was a command pilot, so he did his share of flying. His last assignment was in Systems Command managing test and evaluation of a lot different electronic “systems”. Many of these things were tested in flight and so he did some flying (C-131). Throughout his career TDYs were common usually a couple of days or a week. One day he came home and told us he would be on TDY for a month and that he would not be reachable. He wouldn’t say where other than “West”. He came home and shortly after he came home with or was sent a Russian 37mm round. It was the shell with a primer that had a firing pin impression and the projectile. Thing had a date stamped into the base “1953”. He never would say where he had got it other than from “a friend”. He had been in Vietnam and I thought it might have been connected with that. Many years later after he had gone, I saw a vintage film clip of the weapons platform of a captured Mig 15 being service and I saw a 37mm round just like he had brought home. So I think now that given his Job I think he went either to Area 51 or Tonopah and this souvenir was from one of the captured Russian fighters.
Ward, great data and very well delivered. You filled in some holes and confirmed some rumors floating around at the Fighter Weapons School, back in 1989. As an FWS grad in 1989, and an interviewee for the Have Blue program, (passed on it ), I was bummed when I learned that Constant Peg assets were removed from our training curriculum. The rumor was that maintenance requirements shut the program down. Nice briefing! I am a new subscriber.
I flew Compass Call a bunch of times on those ranges in Nevada and let me tell you, nothing coming out of there surprises me anymore. Years later I got to do some work on the ground out middle of nowhere Nevada. I witnessed the very last flight of the F-117 there. What a trip!
Ward, first of all - thanks for sharing this invaluable content, please keep it coming. Your experience and memory of this crucial and exciting period of military aviation - to be explicit here: flying on the Tomcat! - is remarkable. Love to hear and see more. I'm flying myself, but in the civil sector - currently T7. But in the time off I got back to simming, more precisely DCS World and especially the F-14 - so, you can imagine probably, this is gold, your insights on stuff are really appreciated. Already visited the Midway in San Diego and talked to former F-14 staff, but your channel is just amazing.
As a retired Command Master Chief of an F-14A squadron, I really love your stories. I am so grateful that I had the opportunity to work with many outstanding Naval Aviators and Maintenance crews. As to how parts for these aircraft were made or acquired, sailors and airmen can never be underestimated for their resourcefulness.
Never watched a video by you before, this was fascinating! I subscribed as soon as I finished watching. I'm glad that the video wasn't just clickbait either; you told an interesting story, then related it to your main topic of secret projects nested within secret projects. Very nicely done!
Ditto. First time watching your video and I was totally glued to your presentation. No fluff, just facts and data. This is the way all aviation, historical videos should be produced and presented. Again, excellent work!
Your story kept me on the edge of my seat. Thank you for your service to our country and for sharing this. It's amazing what our military has developed without the average civilian like me having a clue (although I have seen some "ufo's" driving across Nevada at night years ago). Great channel, thanks again!
During red flag at Nellis as a crew chief of a C-130E 146th TAW (1987) was able to go to the top secret museum. Was allowed to sit in those aircraft you mentioned. Was supersized at how small the cockpits where. Also inspect the missile air to air batteries,tanks and a host of other really interesting equipment The rifle ports of the armored personnel carrier where also interesting as all Russian equipment is. Great video thanks
Great video, Cdr Carroll. Very informative and interesting. You were just starting your career as I was getting out of the Air Force. Thank you for being one of the "rough men" who allowed me and mine to sleep safely at night. My dad was a gunner's mate on the U.S.S, Boxer CV-21. My son was an 88M in the Army. He was assigned to the 21st Infantry Division and unloaded the first ship for Desert Shield/Storm. He also drove one of the first vehicles not a tank through the berm. I don't know if you were an active part of DS/S but thank you for serving. Were I the room with you, sir, I would salute you.
I thought you were going to expose "Constant Keg"! Whew! I was lucky enough to hit it in the F-14A twice and the F-16N once. Going up there in the F-16 was WAY fun....wish we could have done it in the A-4 as well.
@@mdfogarty We broke them all (wing spars). Every engagement ended with the fighters going home and the bogeys fighting 1v1's, guns only. Lots of time at 9.3G's until you got below corner velocity.
@@kayakutah Thanks for the info's ! May i ask if the F-14A pilots were flying in top gun within the 6.5 g limit or was this exceeded if needed to win a fight? Do you remember the max g you have pulled in the cat?Also, were the flaps used in slow speed fights within natops limiits (2,5 g and 225 kts iirc)?
@@irenemengouli590 I generally stayed within the 6.5 G limit (it was even more limited with certain loadouts). I have been known to overstress an airframe and have been handed a "speedwrench" to open access panels by maintenance crews to assist with inspections (this happened a couple of times in the RF-8 Crusader as well!). We had one pilot who pulled 8G's while carrying a TACTS pod, so he wasn't able to claim ignorance (his call sign was "Stress" at VF-114). In combat, I wouldn't have hesitated to pull what I needed. I never used flaps in the tomcat until it was demo'd when I went through TG. If it was use them or die, I would, of course, and they were VERY effective - like jumping on an elevator. The problem is that flaps/slats could "lockout" if a torque tube (I'm digging into the memory banks pretty deeply now, so forgive me if I miss-remember some) snapped due to rolling G's or overstresses, and you could be stuck with flaps out. At sea, it was absolutely out of the question, in my mind! The result is you'd either run out of gas getting back to your stereo - flaps out is VERY high drag, or you could be easily chased down. I never really considered flaps out as a viable combat tactic in the F-14A. You couldn't fight as an adversary in the A-4 without them (and trim), and the F-8 had a "spin droop" configuration that was safe and deadly in a slow flight against the F-4 as it was a 3G 250 kias restriction and no torque tubes.
Thanks for sharing Mr. Carroll....excellent information. Ive studied the Red Eagles and read about them for years. We had heard rumors about "Migs in Nevada" all through the 80's. What really intrigued me were your photos and video clips , especially from within the hangars and the ramp at TTR. A REALLY outstanding description of your experience...THANK YOU!
We were on vacation in Sequoia National Park late summer 1983. I kept hearing jets to the east of us that sounded very much like some air to air stuff going on with occasional sonic booms. Thanks to your video, no longer a mystery.
Just a quick note that I am a relatively new subscriber and I could listen to story after Story all day. The information you give us dots all of the I's and crosses the t's regarding quite a bit of information we had, and didn't have, growing up. I also have to say that your storytelling is remarkable because it keeps us on the edge of our seats, and quite frankly, puts us in your seat as well. Thank you for everything you do and everything you have done for our country
I got to fight against all three types on three separate occasions from 1981-1983, VF-111. I found the -23 was the easiest to kill. Problem with that airplane was that you weren’t going to find yourself in 1v1 since they usually traveled in packs of six to eight. The -21 was a comparably even fight. The one that blew me away was the -17. I went two to three turns with him and then went vertical. That little sucker came right up and was inside my turn at my apex. I was also amazed at just how small those airplane were. Biff.
Coming from the Eastern block and being into planes, i was shocked by how HUGE the American Fighters were. The F14 Tomcat is my all time favorite but against the migs and especially in close air combat i would go with the F16 all the way.
@@teaser6089 A flying Instructor once told me, 'Anyone can afford to learn to fly. The trick is to manage your budget so you can afford to eat too'. For my money (and I fly light power not jets but....) If you don't want to join the military, and you can't afford to fly power aerobatics (that costs loads of money) but is about hyper-precision..... *The most exciting flying is ridge soaring in gliders/sailplanes* To maximise lift you're flying about one wing's length from the tip of one wing to the side of a hill or mountain. That alone gives a far greater sense of speed than (take off & landing excepted) you get with powered flight. Now add to that you get weird roiling air effects from the topography which can slam you into the hillside in under a second so you are hyper-alert. And the cherry on the icecream ..... Its probably the cheapest way of flying bar jumping off a cliff with a hang-glider!
@@teaser6089Glasses are no problem. To get a Private Pilot License, you just have to pass a medical exam and not have a condition like epilepsy or serious heart disease that could cause you to suddenly become incapacitated while flying. They are very strict about medications and about mental illness, though.
This was fascinating stuff. It does not surprise me in the least the our Government had more that one secret program going at the same time. They probably still do. I read where General Bond only requested a cockpit briefing in the MIG 23 that lasted roughly three hours where a normal briefing included at least two weeks before actually flying one. I read that our military pilots had stated the MIG 23 was squirrelly and hard to fly and could kill you if you were not well trained. RIP General Robert Bond and Captain Dale Snodgrass. Glad to see you are a Beatles fan.
Fantastic background info on an impressive time in our aviation history. Thank you for this. Well thought out, well presented, and the perspective you share is first-hand. You are not an analyzer from the bench. You've been there. Keep this coming!
Absolutely fascinating piece of aviation history! This is so interesting on so many levels, especially when it comes from someone who has experienced it! Thank you for sharing this!
Ward - These are fascinating videos. I wonder why the comms weren't encrypted between aircraft? The capability is certainly there so why the verbal admonishment against using the word 'MIG' when in an adrenalin fog cloud, someone could use the word word to describe the adversarial birds.
One of the coolest videos I've watched - these insider stories are fantastic! The little tidbit on the AIM-9P at the end is just as interesting to me as the MiG stuff. Those kinds of nuggets really set your channel apart! Great job!
That was an interesting use of an old system, hiding one 'secret' project behind another. When most 'inquisitive types' uncover something covert, they'll assume that they have 'cracked it,' and stop digging. Lesson learned, as you said.
@@countluke2334 Good point. I suppose it may come down to psychological profile; some will be happy with what they find on the first layer, but others will have the desire to keep exploring the rabbit hole.
@@countluke2334 Sadly the Air Force created a lot of UFO conspiracy theories by leaking "tactical deceptions" about UFOs to cover up programs like this.
@@doncarlton4858 Working as intended. Conspiracy theorists are one of the best tools for covering up secrets. Anyone who wants to figure out what might be going on will have to sift through a load of rubbish conspiracy theories about aliens or gravity propulsion.
@@josephburchanowski4636 yup, there's no one as gullible as a self deluding paranoid conspiracy speculator... (except possibly a devout beliver of any religion)
In regards to heat seeking missile discriminators being able to ignore bright flares, I remember the AFSOC aircraft at the 352nd SOG changing over to new flares that didn't burn visually bright, but did give off intense heat signatures. I forget their designations since it's been over 23 years since I loaded them on an AFSOC C-130, but I do remember them being a marked improvement over the older, brighter flares. I was a Guidance and Control specialist, but when it came to chaff and flare loading, refueling and other tasks such as engine changes and tire/brake replacements we were all part of the crew at the deployed locations and no one went home until the aircraft was mission capable so we all pitched in no matter what the task was.
*As a history freak, this channel is like a honey from God: I don't think I've seen a single video from here that didn't contain **_some_** new nugget of previously unknown information! Just great! Thank you!*
As a navy defence contract worker during the cold wear, I found your 'top gun' video very interesting! I worked on FBM Trident missiles (and have some national secrets filed away in my memory), but what I can say, in terms of nuclear weapons - the Russians are (or maybe WERE past tense) adversaries that we should definitely fear!
YEEESSS!!! Thanks for this video! I met Gail Peck while I was at Nellis AFB when his book came out, he signed it for me. I absolutely love the Aggressor Squadrons...true professionalism and aviation excellence!!...
Ward, there was far more than Constant Peg there…I visited there many times testing the Prowler, and while I won’t address specifics, it certainly allowed EW tactics to be developed against many things with results which mirrored EW performance in Desert Storm, Allied Force, and Iraqi Freedom.
I was wondering how they maintained those MiGs, that's pretty interesting. Pilots just hopping in with no pre-flight check shows a lot of confidence in the maintenance crew!
Deafwing, I no longer have my copy of the book "Red Eagles" by Steve Davies, but there was one particular occasion where the USAF Pilot began to do the traditional walk around the jet (MiG-21F-13 I believe?), and was bluntly halted by the NCO maintenance crew chief! Something to the effect of we don't want you screwing something up with our asset! So the Pilot did just get in and go from that point on. Cheers! 🍺
@@GrimReaper-wz9me they got 'em out of Malaysia, Burma, and Egypt, and scrounged parts. it was a quite an operation. Low key, bare metal. The "peg" book is a great read. Author takes you in the cockpit with him. There's another book by T.D. Barnes that describes the evaluation and flight testing.
Pilots and other aircrew do a general walk around of the aircraft. If they have a question about the plane they ask the Plane Captain (PC) or crew chief. Who in turn explains it to the crew of what it is and what it does, and yes it is supposed to look like that. The maintainers know more about the planes than the aircrew do.
They have also mig 29 and su 27. Of course if you believe the internet. ua-cam.com/video/BayjAFra_6U/v-deo.html check this out you will get a lot of info's there about the program.
Thank you for telling your story. I had heard of the aggressor squadrons before, but I had no idea it was used as cover for the F-117 tests. Brilliant. And your telling of your experiences flying against the "YF" aircraft really held my attention, especially when you broke out with the stick models. That was great.
Thank Ward for your insightful and interesting articles. Your conveyance is entertaining, humorous and educational. Growing to really love this channel. Keep it up.
I cannot speak too much on the AF however, I cant tell you that every Airdale knows who keeps the feathers on the birds and they cannot be thanked enough. The problem with the Air Force, and I served in the Air Guard as well, is that they think they invented flying. I have tons and tons of respect for all Air Force personnel and they do a very professional job. When comparing the Navy/Marine Corps to the Air Force, I always say that Air Force flying is like going to catholic school where Navy/Corps is like going to public school. Rah!
hi John good observation I hadn't thought of till u mentioned it. I spent some time in both the Navy and Air Force and at least where I was at the standard squadron setup in the Navy lends to this atmosphere. in the Navy I was seeing other shops and aircrew all the time. in the air force maybe 10% of the same interaction. pros and cons to both im sure but in the Navy you had a lot more interaction which opens opportunities for feedback. you felt like u were part of the package of success.
Pile-its weren't too friendly with us non-aircraft maintenance troops either. As a 304x4 I helped make sure they could communicate with the ATC controllers. Heaven help up if the tower lost comms. I did a stint working on comm systems for Titan II ballistic missiles too. At least those guys didn't dis us to our faces.
Thanks for this video. I enjoyed it while working on my military miniatures. Made me remember back in the 80's, a guy I knew was working at a job where they were shooting radar beams at various shapes and then collect data on the bounced signal strength. Then one day he told me that the storage where all those shapes were kept was broken into, and the shapes missing. It didn't seem to secretive that they were working on stealth at the time, but years later, when the stealth aircraft were revealed, did I understand that it was for real, and we were successful at creating such aircraft. Yet to this day, I often wonder what happened to those models, and who stole them and where they went. Remains a mystery.
I really enjoy your videos; I've always found aviation interesting. I grew up in the Soviet Union, and later served in the US navy. I got to see both sides of military aviation up close.
Greetings Soviet Komrade! I grew up in USA 🇺🇸 and ended up being 11B Army Infantry ! Always wanted to fly but I was built to fire rifles and pound the ground I couldn’t make it thru all of the bookwork. I still want to go to Russia 🇷🇺 and fly into space on the 1 MiG that they sell rides on still think it’s one of the fastest jets on the planet 🌎!
Great debrief, the release of information on what the programs were producing was fantastic, the inverted maneuver were the MiG-23 was an eye opener Thanks
Hanging out with Col “Evil” Peck this weekend.. he’s still going strong, hoping to finish his RV-8 this year and get it flying! I just sent this to him! Have you read his book “America’s Secret MIG Squadron”?
@@10percenttrue I like your username. As a friend of mine says, "never ruin a good war story by starting it out with 'I'm not sure how much of this is true, but....'"
Have you got a full Title, Author and a B/Number would be fantastic! Luv to read the actual pilot's experiences / recountings for the "real truth" about Military Aircraft!
Great episode, Ward. I can only imagine the amount of confidence it must have provided the pilots to have actually flown against MiGs. It's one thing to read an intelligence report about an OppFor's capabilities; it's quite another to see it in person. Continue the hard work and great information. E Pluribus Unum
Mooch, all of your videos are informative and great, but I think that this one has the most new and unexpected information. You discussed topics on here that I'd always heard about but really never know.much about, for obvious reasons. Thank you so much.
Man between listening to You and CW Limoine - i feel like I’m a kid going thru Top Gun after the lesson is over - just listening to Your Experience and Wisdom is Awesome! Thank You!
Most informative! I was in school when there was so much trepidation around the MiG-25, I thought it was a fascinating airplane. I well remember when the defector flew the one to Japan and we started finding out how inferior it was to the countermeasure F-15. Mostly steel construction, no countersunk rivets (that additional drag at Mach 3 must have been INSANE), gigantic fuel-gulping engines, and horrible rear visibility. With the F-15 particularly designed to counter what the USA THOUGHT the MiG-25 was, it's probably fair to say the F-15 (and the Navy's F-14) ruled the skies for far longer than what could have been reasonably ever predicted.
@@klin1klinom Most modern jets are made of stronger, lighter titanium alloys. Steel is comparatively VERY heavy, thus the MiG-25 was a lumbering, heavy machine that required two big, fuel-gulping engines that put serious constraints on its range, to boot.
@@richardadams4928 f-15 and f-16 were initially made of mostly aluminum alloys, which soften at speeds close to Mach 1.5. It isn't suitable for Mach 2.8 dedicated interceptor like mig-25. Titanium is notoriously difficult to weld and shape, and quite expensive, too. So, the only appropriate material at the time for the job was stainless steel, especially considering that mig-25 was a mass-produced aircraft. It wasn't "lumbering" by any means, given average intercept speed of Mach 2.5, and it did what it was designed for. It's also worth reiterating that mig-25 was purely interceptor/reconnaissance aircraft that was never meant for fighter duties. It didn't even have a gun.
If I recall the Soviets developed the MiG-25 as a response to the XB-70. It was a high speed, high altitude interceptor, not the super fighter we had feared. After the XB-70 program was cancelled, the Soviets pressed on with the MiG-25 but it had no one to fight. The revamped B-1B was redesigned as a lower speed low level penetrator and again, the Foxbat had no one to fight.
@@stevescott9474 In late 1970s Foxbat was re equiped with doppler radar and IRST and got look down shoot down capacity. Combined with BVR missiles it was capable interceptor.
Do you remember the “tiny” casino on the corner attached to the Nugget? That was the “ Sagebrush Casino”. I was stationed at the NAS in 1973 and had a part-time job running the projectors at the Fallon Theater right across the street.
@@michaelsmoak1146 I do remember the Sagebrush. My first detachment to Fallon was in 1982 with VF-302, and the last trip to Fallon was in 92 with VAW-78. I went to a P-3 outfit after that, so no more Fallon det's after that. I remember the breakfast bar was a pretty good deal too.
After the 'reveal' of SR-71, Way 'back in the day', if the U.S. rocked up in 'Enterprise G' for the 2021 Airshow circuit,Most folks would just claim they always knew they had it and were just waiting for the right occasion!
Very interesting program - especially the lessons learned about aggressor craft and the program "within" a program. BTW, I received Punk's War last week. Thanks.
I worked at Tonopah on the F-117 program with Link Flight Simulation from early 1989 to just after the Air Force went public with the plane. There was one hangar that sat at the opposite end of the 117 hangars that people said had parked MIGs inside. For the whole time I was there, I never saw one outside however. Great story! Thanks for the insight into that side of Tonopah's history.
Warner Springs SERE for me also in 1984. I had previously been though Bridgeport for Mountain Warfare School in 1979. Never heard of a SERE school there.....
What an absolutely fascinating insight. Came across your video by accident and was hooked! Beautifully concise and informative. I'm in the UK and my late father was RAF for 28yrs. Thank you for sharing.
In 1988 the F117 was a simulator fighter program by MicroPros. I went out and bought a 386 computer with a CGA monitor just to fly the simulator. It was interesting flying combat missions deep into Russia hiding from the different types of radars. I understood how to fly the different flight profiles based on the different types of radars as a ASR radar tech and fixed wing / rotorcraft pilot 😉 It was great fun and educational at the same time.
There are few historical stories that I enjoy more than Have Blue. Especially the bit about the math behind it's creation being a small bit of commentary at the end of a poorly received paper written by a Soviet bloody radar genius, or so it appears. Oh, and the genius that took over Skunk Works from Kelly that had the balls to gamble on it.
I'm going from 37-year-old memory here, so details are a bit fuzzy. One of my assignments in the Air Force was as an instructor pilot in the T-39 out of Langley AFB, Virginia from October 1981 to June, 1984. Shortly before I moved on to my next assignment in June 1984, I picked up General Robert Bond, commander of Air Force Systems Command at Wright-Patterson AFB, Ohio. While my copilot sat in the back, I sat in the right seat while General Bond flew the aircraft in the left seat from Wright-Patterson AFB to a military field in Nevada (I don't remember which). A day or two later, I learned that he'd died flying a MIG-23. I don't know, but maybe my flight with him was the last flight he survived.
I enjoyed the hell outta this!! Having spent a lifetime as a BAC avionics support engineer, and having seen both civilian and military mechanics practice their trade, those "Y-Series" maintenance crews were likely ALL "golden wrench" types.
Ward I really enjoyed this video. I've always been an aviation nut so learning about air to air combat and all the fascinating back story regarding the F117 cover was super to hear! Thanks.
In the mid-late 80's my brother and I were skiing at Ski Apache near Ruidoso, NM. We were at the top of the mountain and saw a MIG-21 being chased by an F-14. They were carving the valleys *below* us. Absolutely unforgettable.
WOW VERY VERY COOL. AND WITH YOUR BROTHER TO.
I imagine you two guys chanting U S A U S A and exchanging those excited hi-fives that totally miss contact in the moment
Legendary
So if you didn't know about the MiG's were you looking for Russian and Cuban paratroopers?;)
A friend and I were hiking in Black Canyon a ways below Hoover Dam, about halfway down to the river, when a pair of fighters ran a chase down the canyon ... below us. By the time we heard them coming and grabbed hold to the wall, they flashed by and were gone, no time to see what they were. Late 60s.
During the time this operation took place, I was working as a toolmaker for a aerospace company in California. This company was, and probably still is, one of the leading manufacturers in the World of aircraft transparencies, - windshields, canopies, cockpit windows, etc. Both military and commercial. Our management called our group together and told us we were going to be involved in a secret program and were not to talk about it. A section of our tooling dept. was cordoned off from the rest of the company for us to work on this project. Subsequently, some wooden crates arrived which we opened under supervision. Inside were several canopies, and maybe some windshields, can't remember, in degraded conditions. Our questions about these parts went unanswered. Our task was to restore these parts into a condition where we could take plaster casts from and create semi permanent tooling for a short run of replacement parts, duplicating the parts sent us. Being an amateur student of aviation and military history, I was curious but kept my mouth shut. But I was fairly certain these were parts from Russian aircraft. Having many reference books at home I did some research and yep, Mig 21 and 23.
I had a very interesting rewarding 45 year career working at this company.
Men in black may visit you.
Was your company in Temecula, Ca ?
I joined the AF in 77. In 81 I was selected to the Thunderbirds. Then the T38. Our AC was on the ramp next to the Fighter weapons school at Nellis, the F5. After finishing 3 years with the team in Jan of 84 I was waiting for my clearance to reassign to the 4477 in Tonapah. I could tell stories for days but the reason I decided to comment is because of our closeness in age and you talking about fighter weapons school and the migs in tonapah. Brought back the memories. Thanks
Worked on the Tonopah test range in the early 2000s, and while I can't go into to much detail did happen to see some "exotic" aircraft while working there. But what really blew my mind was watching the air combat maneuvers while "Red Flag" was taking place. Far more impressive than anything I've seen with the Blue Angels or Thunderbirds. Really like your channel.
@johnulmer6715. Why are you afraid to disclose about the “exotics,’’ John? It’s not like you signed any NDAs or are going to spill the beans on any alien craft or the aliens themselves.
I was stationed at Nellis AFB from 1997 to 2002. I was a nurse midwife, so I delivered babies for the Air Force. I had a patient who needed a special test. She said she couldn't do it because she didn't have anyone who could watch her two young children. I asked her to call her husband to come watch the kids while she did the test. She said "That's not possible." I offered to call her husband's First Sergeant to arrange for her husband to be released from duty to watch the kids. She said, "You don't understand. That's just not possible" I said, "Make me understand." She looked uncomfortable, and in a barely audible whisper said, "Every morning my husband leaves the house for a job which he cannot discuss, at a location that he cannot disclose, and during that time he cannot be contacted." I said "Oh!" and made arrangements for one of our nurses to watch the kids so she could do the test.
Patrolling The Mojave almost makes you wish for a nuclear winter. (Fallout New Vegas game from 2010, it's a quote heard a lot)
Bla...bla...bla.. Who cares !
@@normanterrault397 Greta! Is that you?
yes sir, GOD BLESS YOU AND THE Air Force
I’ve been in that situation… even more odd… I wasn’t even supposed to say I was in that situation.
I enjoyed this video. My dad worked maintenance (U2; KC-135) with a guy that was there in maintenance on constant peg. He was really proud of being part of that. Loved working on the Migs. After that he became a SR71 crew chief. He passed away last year due to COVID complications
RIP.
Rest in peace 😔😔😔
Sounds like a good bloke down mate (After he lived well & usefully)
My respects
😊😊😊
Sympathy to a great service member.
Thank you for mentioning the maintenance folks as a maintenance guy for over 30 years I can tell you they/we work very hard to keep the jets airworthy. Also thank you for mentioning fabricating parts it’s became an art form. Great video.
Yes, yes you all do. I cannot thank you enough sir.
Everytime I see an aircraft I'm reminded by just how incredible the maintainance supply chain must be to keep something like it airborne. You guys are the real victors, and deserve WAAAAY more credit than you get.
Very impressive!
Yes. You are very important chaps and staff anywhere.
Seen some of these at NAS NI about ten years ago!
Alongside Mover (C.W. Lemoine), this channel has become my favorite place on UA-cam for anything aviation-related. You’re an outstanding storyteller & an incredible role model. Greetings from the Civil Air Patrol - C/2d Lt Leng
Thanks, Jordan.
This is definitely a great channel! Aircrew Interview is another good one besides Mover and Ward. I love his Oakie interviews- Ward, did you ever serve with Keith?
Ward, Mover, and Fighter pilot podcast are my 3 go to fighter pilot channels
@@WardCarroll - Ward fm just ☝🏼 old [74 yo] US🇺🇸AF Radar Intercept Operator -
I’m taking the GRADUATE Course in...
Modern TACTICAL WARFARE - taught by an Expert: Ward Carroll! Thanks
@@WardCarroll As someone who likes history and former Cold War Grunt, I'm glad you are recording your experiences as this is the sort of fine minutia that easily slips away though the cracks of time.
Great stuff please keep it up.
Stationed at Tonopah for 4 years from 83 - 87. I remember riding the bus to the flight line past those Migs every day on our way to work on our black jets, it was great to hear about the abilities of the Migs, we really had not interaction with those crews. Great video brought back a lot of memories
Same here Mike (86-89) .... and I was almost more blown away by seeing the MIGs, then the F117A ....almost!
1984/85 I was a USAF flight simulator technician. I was offered an opportunity to join a former co-worker at a new unit at a "base within a base" in Nevada. I foolishly chose to turn down the offer, and I later found out that it was the F-117 program.
You missed out. I was security for a USAF installation within an installation in 1982-85.
05-13 controller. Had the opportunity to go to Nevada for expeditionary training. Worked on mainline identity of aircraft that didn’t present normal radar profiles
I was fortunate fly a Constant Peg sortie in 1987 when I was at Weapons School. It was eye opening!
Fantastic little tidbit on how flares and IR work.
I hear a lot of talk about flares in game simulators and how this missile won't be diverted, but others will.
It's nice to hear some explanation about the the why and what of it.
Big props to those maintainers working the MiGs! That is a Herculean effort!
We need a new part for the mig chief...
Fires up the lathe
@@jmace5964
Yes, probably some truth there!!
We had CIA guys in Angola during the Bushwar we fought in the 70's and 80's,.who paid Unitas' soldiers to tell them where shot down Mig23's,Mi.24 Hinds etc, where..so they could scavenge those for parts etc. Could these have ended up here,I wonder?
Not easy with no parts, manuals or training. Remember these planes were bought or gifted without the Soviets knowing about it
@@arfanmedni7294 Yes indeed!
You do a terrific job of telling a story. I hope that your efforts continue because lots of us were not on the inside of the programs you discuss and there is a lot of jaw dropping on my part even though I flew F-4s in Vietnam. I was a squadron commander with VMFA-232 at Red Flag and had a Marine Harrier squadron commander sent home for clipping the corner of Area 51. If the folks were that serious about 51 then I can almost imagine the secrecy at Tonapah (sp). My time was a long time ago and your program keeps it alive for me. Be well!
I was a kid, and I made one of those Stealth Fighter model airplanes (1984/1985). Well, my Dad worked at Hughes. He had to fly in to Tonopah for a day, to go to TTR. He got to see a F-117 on the taxiway as they were doing daytime operations. With his security clearance, he couldn’t talk about anything he see’s, no matter if he’s briefed into a program or not.
It took him 20 years to even tell me, even with the F-117 program being declassified. He said he saw me with my model plane as a kid, and just laughed.
Thank you so much. My Father Harry ( Bob) Kroen was a Swordsman. He was a Senior Chief and very proud of his squadron. He then continued as a Leadman with Lockheed servicing A4 at Chase Field then later with Kay & Associates to Kuwait. I miss him and his stories. Thank you for sharing. It reminds me of the times we had.
There’s a book out on Constant Peg, but it didn’t convey the operational training details like that. Fascinating as always, Ward.
Actually, there is a book titled Red Eagles, with chapters detailing the original idea of Constant Peg, setting up the squadron, acquiring airframes and a somewhat chronological history of the squadron, pilots and commanders. Good read!
@@thomasshaffer8547 So what is the title of the book??.
@@rhondohslade Red Eagles.
Im 47 years removed from being a ADJ 3 on A-4 skyhawks. I love your content. My maintenance officer at the time left our squadron to become exec of the 2nd tomcat squadron at the time. To the best of my memory. That guy had a set of nads that was almost impossible to stuff into a flight suit. He was invebcible, don't think he knew what backing down from a challenge was. He climbed into A-4's after being totaly put back togeather by 19 yo's to test them out before others could fly them. I know that was his job. I know it was our job to make it safe for him to do so. I Think he was a two tour vietnam fighter pilot. Thank you for your post. Your expertise, proffessionalism. Men like you that climb into that cockpit now and in the past is what makes this country great.
"I think there is something else going on at Tonapah "
He wasn't the only one. I have a relative who was in VFA-125, ordinance. Truck's quote, and something my relative said clicked. Filling ordinance requests for aircraft came this request for a loadout that was nothing like that in any of the inventories. Wasn't for a Bug, Tomcat, Air Force or anything that was a normal loadout. It was said, 'ah, they're testing something'. And that's as far as that conversation went.
Just an old Harrier Avionics guy, first I really enjoy the channel.
Second we were out there during a red flag in the mid 80's, and I remember a pilot telling me about the debrief on the "forbidden, no way, do not ever fly over, no matter what your problem" areas with a raised eyebrow.
And last what a hoot, to work on Russian aircraft, I know the Air Force wouldn't be interested in having Marines work for them, but it probably would have been worth a reup to work with maintenance group in that unit for a couple of years. Marines in aviation are no different than the ones on the ground, we pride ourselves in doing a lot with very little and coming up with the rest on our own. When push comes to shove, of course.
Again love the channel.
Oh cool, you got to work with AV-8As and Cs
@@Tigershark_3082 Yes! British A model, C model, and later McDonald Douglas B model.
Completely enjoyed it. A nice range of old airframes headed to the boneyard and new factory fresh. Each with unique characteristics and challenges.
I love the smell of JP 5 in the morning. ( I miss it).
Factory automation pays well, but ..well, . It doesn't compare to a successful zero dark thirty flight ops send off after pulling an all nighter.😎
The center block of that range, including Groom Lake, is still a never-never land, isn’t it? Maybe some machines in there that resemble tic-tac’s from project “Interocitor Exeter”. 😆
@@Andrew-13579 🤔
@@Andrew-13579 You write: _"from project “Interocitor Exeter"_
Nice 50's SF reference!
Makes total sense as you could also test how stealthy the F117 was using real examples of Soviet and Chinese radars
What Chinese radar? The J-7's exchanged to the US only had a targeting radar 😂
(And the radar and the 21MF and 23MS were late 60's tech).
That was accomplished at another location, with equipment we mostly bought outright while the former Soviet republics pulled away from Moscow and needed hard currency income.
I love your videos. This one proved a point I made for years, to my family. My father was an ex-Naval Aviator, and was an airline pilot. My point in saying this is this: both my brother and I were aviation enthusiasts (although neither he nor I ever became a pilot) and were both in the military. I was only a 0311 in the Marine Corps. I had the opportunity while I was in to see most of the aircraft in the United States inventory during my service. I had a familiarity with Soviet aircraft due to my hobbies. We always assumed the United States had a stable of ex-Warsaw pact aircraft somewhere that American pilots trained against and we always assumed that is was in Groom Lake, NV. This was primarily due to the fact that everyone else assumed the same and that the nav charts my father used had that area, specifically, outlined as a no-fly area for commercial aircraft.
In 1995, I was towing a trailer through southern Nevada, in broad daylight, on a state highway. The road was empty except for me. I was lost in my own thoughts, because there was nothing on the radio that interested me.
All of a sudden a obnoxious roar enveloped my truck and trailer. As I looked to the left, I saw a Mig 23 heading away from me, after passing directly overhead, probably at less than 1000 ft. AGL, and he was hauling ass. If I hadn't already visited the restroom earlier that morning, I would have done so in my trousers- I just simply wasn't expecting it.
He executed a gentle climbing turn to the NW and flew south through the terrain. He was in a camo scheme I hadn't seen before, and I couldn't see any markings. I told myself "I just saw a Mig-23!", even though I didn't believe it.
After about 2 minutes he passed me, slowly this time- he was about a 1500 yds. away, flying through terrain at about 1000 ft and heading N, and the sunlight lit up his camo and red star, proving I had, in fact, seen a Mig-23.
I told this story for a couple of years, when conspiracy theory talk begins, and was always greeted with the rolling of eyes, even though my audience knew that those aircraft are here, and do fly.
I feel vindicated.
I think group of pilots who flew MiGs were known as Red Hat's and they were testing MiGs against US made aircrafts around Groom lake.
This episode of the old series Wings of the Red Star feature a US Army test pilot who flew Hinds for the same purpose. Anyone who thinks we wouldn't try to grab enemy aircraft is not thinking clearly. And if we grab them, well we have to fly them somewhere. Good on you for noticing!
ua-cam.com/video/3BXOwdjUiqU/v-deo.html
Never "only 0311"
0311 IS The United States Marine Corps!
Semper Fi Devil Dog....
Good story BTW
Cool story, bro! 😁😉😛
Isn't stealth the primary strategy in war ? I dont see the chinese or Russians explaining their training to all and sundry on you tube. Whether these aircraft are in use or not the thought process, the psychology of the fighter and the headspace they are in during a fight are here to study and use. In my experience strategy and psychology are important in winning and should not be shared.
When I was on the team running USAF Green Flag exercises at Nellis AFB in '85-86, we caught wind of the MiGs and the 'coded' assignments of pilots assigned to fly A7s at Tonopah... which we knew wasn't what they were actually flying. We just didn't know what else was going on. It was fascinating to find out a few years later - and of course, to watch your reminder episode, Ward. Thanks as ever.
I just found your channel and thoroughly enjoyed watching this episode. During the 1950's I served in the USN as an aviation
machinists mate working on the f2h2 Banshee and then the f7u3 Cutlass, finally moving into the A4.These jets and their capabilities make a life-long impression which might explain my interest in your program format.
I recently found your channel, and I Live it. I am a former NAVY ET. I served in the USS CORAL SEA CV-43. From 86 thru 89. It very cool to hear about the inner workings of of the Air Group and the perspective of an Aviator.
I cannot even imagine how interesting the stories can be of how they got those MIGs. I am also instancing in awe facing the incredible knowledge and proficiency of the teams responsible for maintaining those aircraft, without manufacturer support, without supply lines of spare parts, and without an Amazon Prime account so they could just buy new stuff.
Cash and Arab nations secured a few.
The plural of "aircraft" is "aircraft".
@@goldenshower6160 Thanks!
First rule is don't call them MIGs
Possibly the same way we got our hands on an Mi-24 Hind before the Berlin Wall came down.
I am not an aviation person at all, but I found this story utterly fascinating. How little the public knows of how hard smart people work to keep us safe. Kudos!!!!
Thank you, that was very informative. I did a couple of Red Flags with the RAF and made some friends in the area of the base. I was on an exercise at Homestead in Florida a while afterwards and was invited to stay with my friends when I had a long weekend off. We had tickets to the unveiling of the F117 when it landed at Nellis.
That's pretty cool stuff. My math teacher in high school worked for Northrop in the 70s and 80s and she was put on a project with other mathematicians to create a geometric profile that could reduce radar incoming form a ground base. She said after her team finished their project, about 15-20 years later she said the B-2 was finally seen.
Cool
In 1988, the B-2 was unveiled to the World by President Reagan on national TV as it sat in front of a hanger in Palmdale, California. We watched via live satellite feed within a Northrop plant near Los Angeles. I got to work on that craft and we didn't even know what it was, nor could we talk about it, until President Reagan's presentation.
I've commissioned fire equipment at Scott and a few other AFB. When I was a kid I built the B2 model. Having them stationed in my hometown was always a point of pride. They of course never let me see one when I worked there but as an enthusiast of engineering they let me walk through a decommissioned bomber. I sat in the pilot seat and everything. I wish I'd knew as much as I've learned from channels like this because I have no idea what plane it was. Regardless, it was awesome.
(maybe now they'll let me sit in a B2... JK... But seriously... I'd school girl scream if I they did.)
I always heard about the 23 being exceptionally fast but they way you described them walking the f-14 is wild. I'm just an enthusiast but f-14 and f-15 have always been my favorites by far. Something about older twin engine designs just really works for me. Thank you for your service.
I was glad to see you credit the efforts of the maintenance crews that kept the MIGs flying. This must have been a very difficult task, especially related to the engines. Soviet fighters were notorious for their frequent maintenance needs.
When the USMC did the ARMVAL exercises back in the 1980s the collection of Soviet made vehicles required 'unanticipated' quantities of maintenance hours.
I'm a retired maintainer and I'm also glad to see the shout out in this video. I always equated being a maintainer with being an un-credited stage hand in a big show, where the show would not happen without our efforts and the ones on the stage got the recognition. I'm glad to see the acknowledgement and I thank you for that!
@@timothybeardsley2715 Eh, as another maintainer, I didn't thank Lockheed for the F16 kills that occurred. We do our jobs but our jobs weren't risking our asses in the air hoping our flares worked and the missiles lock held true.
@@tonymorris4335 of course. My statement was not intended to diminish the plight of fighter pilots or the dangers of fighting in any kind of combat.
Many years ago was camped out in Four corners area of US. One night camped near a river valley. Heard a loud noise. Ran over to the valley and there was a B1 slightly below the rim. He twisted with the river then pulled up maybe a mile away. It was just at dusk. Later when at the FAA enroute center ABQ fixing a computer as a IBM contractor, Talked to a controller and he said that river valley was what was called a oil burner route setup for low level training.
As a guy in his early 20s who just finds these aspects of history extremely fascinating, I wish I had more older people around me of military veteran crop to draw stories from. If you have kids or grandkids I'm sure they must listen wide-eyed to all the stuff you have to tell them.
If this interests you.. Look for a book called "Looking down the Corridors"... By Kevin Wright....
Yeah. I am a bit older than you and loved listening to my grandfather's WWII pacific theater stories. Wish I would have recorded them, but he passed in the early 90s.
Nursing homes are full of veterans longing for someone to talk to.
@@tsfullerton that's actually a really great idea
Google your local VFW. Go buy some guys beers. You'll have stories for years.
I served on the USS America, CV-66, as a navigator as well as switching to the USAF JAG. Listening to your tactics in that exercise was spot on. After retiring from the military, I recently had to go to Luke AFB and got to watch the new Raptors take off. WOW!!!! Keep going on and tell us more.
this was the best military aviation youtube video I've seen over at least the past year for sure! Brilliant!
My brother Wendell was at Tonopah for 7 1/2 years during the F-117 era. He was a logistics specialist (supply sergeant) in the 4450th TG (later 37th TFW). He believes his time there was the longest for any enlisted man. I had figured out what he was involved with, but being Air Force myself knew not to ask him about it. He called me to say watch the news on the day the unveiled the F-117.
My grandfather was stationed at Tonapah during part of World war II. He worked on B-24s mostly. I loved his stories from that time. It's great to get this info. Thank you sir!!
I love how you explain the 23. I hear so many claims it’s an F-4 copy or just down right crap but this proves otherwise
How anyone could have confused or compared a Flogger with an F-4 is beyond me.... lol. A lot of people don't realize there were 2 variants of the Mig-23 in the 80's - fighter and bomber. The may have looked the same but had very different flight parameters.
Definite thumbs up to the maintenance guys. This is something I would have thought impossible to pull off just from maintenance alone. Great talent!
"Whatever you do, don't fly into the 'box'"...advice from an AF major during a Green Flag range briefing, now I know why. Thanks Ward!!
The “Box” or container and we called it, is not Tonopah. It’s something very, very different. Lol
My squadron 70 TFS was at a Red Flag in 85. During the Red Flag one of our air crew had an inflight emergency and entered “ The Box” and had to land at Tonapah. Were greeted on the Tarmac by Men In Black and “ debriefed”. Got sent home from the Red Flag and would not talk about it. Put the Fear Of God in them.
We had the same thing happen in 88. Divert into Tonopah for a fire light. Home commercial a few weeks later. Even beers would not loosen their lips.
My father was the second commander of the 4477th. I’ve interviewed numerous pilots and maintainers. Really enjoyed hearing all this from the exposure side. Thanks for the story.
Is there a public history of the program? I was absolutely fascinated by this video
@@pannegoleyn9734 Steve Davies has an excellent book called "Red Eagles America's Secret Migs" that goes into great depth about the program.
@@kevinhedspeth4303Gail Peck’s book, America’s Secret MiG Squadron is also excellent, especially in regards to the origins and beginnings of the program
Ross Mulhare was killed in F-117 near Bakersfield in 1986 while practicing a SAM break at night, he got disoriented and flew into the ground. To cover-up the existence of the F-117, the Air Force picked up all the pieces of the crashed Nighthawk, then shredded an A-7 and spread the parts over the crash site.
Great video. Awesome history lesson and excellent insight into some of these elite pilot groups. My uncle was a misty pilot in Vietnam and grandpa was a navy pilot. I’ve always had a ton of respect for pilots. What an awesome adrenaline junkie job!
Worked with 1 or 2 mil. pilots at Lockheed div. years ago.
I am an Air Force “brat”. My Dad was a command pilot, so he did his share of flying. His last assignment was in Systems Command managing test and evaluation of a lot different electronic “systems”. Many of these things were tested in flight and so he did some flying (C-131). Throughout his career TDYs were common usually a couple of days or a week. One day he came home and told us he would be on TDY for a month and that he would not be reachable. He wouldn’t say where other than “West”. He came home and shortly after he came home with or was sent a Russian 37mm round. It was the shell with a primer that had a firing pin impression and the projectile. Thing had a date stamped into the base “1953”. He never would say where he had got it other than from “a friend”. He had been in Vietnam and I thought it might have been connected with that. Many years later after he had gone, I saw a vintage film clip of the weapons platform of a captured Mig 15 being service and I saw a 37mm round just like he had brought home. So I think now that given his
Job I think he went either to Area 51 or Tonopah and this souvenir was from one of the captured Russian fighters.
Ward, great data and very well delivered. You filled in some holes and confirmed some rumors floating around at the Fighter Weapons School, back in 1989.
As an FWS grad in 1989, and an interviewee for the Have Blue program, (passed on it ), I was bummed when I learned that Constant Peg assets were removed from our training curriculum.
The rumor was that maintenance requirements shut the program down. Nice briefing! I am a new subscriber.
As a Cold War British Sapper I love your broadcasts. So well put together, presented and informative. More power to your elbow old chap.
I flew Compass Call a bunch of times on those ranges in Nevada and let me tell you, nothing coming out of there surprises me anymore. Years later I got to do some work on the ground out middle of nowhere Nevada. I witnessed the very last flight of the F-117 there. What a trip!
Could listen to this all day, Mooch. Don’t think there’s anything else to say. Hope the numbers look good. This is awesome.
Ward, first of all - thanks for sharing this invaluable content, please keep it coming. Your experience and memory of this crucial and exciting period of military aviation - to be explicit here: flying on the Tomcat! - is remarkable. Love to hear and see more. I'm flying myself, but in the civil sector - currently T7. But in the time off I got back to simming, more precisely DCS World and especially the F-14 - so, you can imagine probably, this is gold, your insights on stuff are really appreciated. Already visited the Midway in San Diego and talked to former F-14 staff, but your channel is just amazing.
Thanks, Benjamin.
As a retired Command Master Chief of an F-14A squadron, I really love your stories. I am so grateful that I had the opportunity to work with many outstanding Naval Aviators and Maintenance crews. As to how parts for these aircraft were made or acquired, sailors and airmen can never be underestimated for their resourcefulness.
Never watched a video by you before, this was fascinating! I subscribed as soon as I finished watching. I'm glad that the video wasn't just clickbait either; you told an interesting story, then related it to your main topic of secret projects nested within secret projects. Very nicely done!
Ditto. First time watching your video and I was totally glued to your presentation. No fluff, just facts and data. This is the way all aviation, historical videos should be produced and presented.
Again, excellent work!
What a great insight the world of aerial combat… Les Pauls, Marshalls and great aircraft stories you can’t go wrong ….rock on brother
Your story kept me on the edge of my seat. Thank you for your service to our country and for sharing this. It's amazing what our military has developed without the average civilian like me having a clue (although I have seen some "ufo's" driving across Nevada at night years ago). Great channel, thanks again!
During red flag at Nellis as a crew chief of a C-130E 146th TAW (1987) was able to go to the top secret museum. Was allowed to sit in those aircraft you mentioned. Was supersized at how small the cockpits where. Also inspect the missile air to air batteries,tanks and a host of other really interesting equipment The rifle ports of the armored personnel carrier where also interesting as all Russian equipment is. Great video thanks
Great video, Cdr Carroll. Very informative and interesting. You were just starting your career as I was getting out of the Air Force. Thank you for being one of the "rough men" who allowed me and mine to sleep safely at night. My dad was a gunner's mate on the U.S.S, Boxer CV-21. My son was an 88M in the Army. He was assigned to the 21st Infantry Division and unloaded the first ship for Desert Shield/Storm. He also drove one of the first vehicles not a tank through the berm. I don't know if you were an active part of DS/S but thank you for serving. Were I the room with you, sir, I would salute you.
Was a Red Eagle 4477 maintainer from 84 thru 86. Never got an official de-brief so don't really talk about it much. Good video.
I thought you were going to expose "Constant Keg"!
Whew!
I was lucky enough to hit it in the F-14A twice and the F-16N once.
Going up there in the F-16 was WAY fun....wish we could have done it in the A-4 as well.
I lived in La Jolla and saw the F-16N's flying out of Miramar! Not a lot of those in the inventory.
@@mdfogarty We broke them all (wing spars). Every engagement ended with the fighters going home and the bogeys fighting 1v1's, guns only. Lots of time at 9.3G's until you got below corner velocity.
@@kayakutah Thanks for the info's ! May i ask if the F-14A pilots were flying in top gun within the 6.5 g limit or was this exceeded if needed to win a fight? Do you remember the max g you have pulled in the cat?Also, were the flaps used in slow speed fights within natops limiits (2,5 g and 225 kts iirc)?
@@irenemengouli590 I generally stayed within the 6.5 G limit (it was even more limited with certain loadouts). I have been known to overstress an airframe and have been handed a "speedwrench" to open access panels by maintenance crews to assist with inspections (this happened a couple of times in the RF-8 Crusader as well!). We had one pilot who pulled 8G's while carrying a TACTS pod, so he wasn't able to claim ignorance (his call sign was "Stress" at VF-114). In combat, I wouldn't have hesitated to pull what I needed. I never used flaps in the tomcat until it was demo'd when I went through TG. If it was use them or die, I would, of course, and they were VERY effective - like jumping on an elevator. The problem is that flaps/slats could "lockout" if a torque tube (I'm digging into the memory banks pretty deeply now, so forgive me if I miss-remember some) snapped due to rolling G's or overstresses, and you could be stuck with flaps out. At sea, it was absolutely out of the question, in my mind! The result is you'd either run out of gas getting back to your stereo - flaps out is VERY high drag, or you could be easily chased down. I never really considered flaps out as a viable combat tactic in the F-14A. You couldn't fight as an adversary in the A-4 without them (and trim), and the F-8 had a "spin droop" configuration that was safe and deadly in a slow flight against the F-4 as it was a 3G 250 kias restriction and no torque tubes.
Dude, you were dogfighting MIGs above the NightHawk while it was in flight developement! Amazing story sir!
they were probably out there seeing if anyone could see THEM, scratch probably.
Thanks for sharing Mr. Carroll....excellent information. Ive studied the Red Eagles and read about them for years. We had heard rumors about "Migs in Nevada" all through the 80's. What really intrigued me were your photos and video clips , especially from within the hangars and the ramp at TTR. A REALLY outstanding description of your experience...THANK YOU!
We were on vacation in Sequoia National Park late summer 1983. I kept hearing jets to the east of us that sounded very much like some air to air stuff going on with occasional sonic booms. Thanks to your video, no longer a mystery.
Just a quick note that I am a relatively new subscriber and I could listen to story after Story all day. The information you give us dots all of the I's and crosses the t's regarding quite a bit of information we had, and didn't have, growing up.
I also have to say that your storytelling is remarkable because it keeps us on the edge of our seats, and quite frankly, puts us in your seat as well. Thank you for everything you do and everything you have done for our country
I remember flying over Tonopah in the mid-80's as a USMC KC-130 navigator and being told not to photograph ANYTHING that might be seen.
And now you know why. LOL
I'd be like: You aren't my dad, don't tell me what to do.
@@angusmatheson8906 Yeah two men in black show up at your door the next day and ask to see your camera.
Breaking Dreamland's air space was a bozo no no...
@@cefb8923 meanwhile I've uploaded the images and posted them to all corners of the internet
I got to fight against all three types on three separate occasions from 1981-1983, VF-111. I found the -23 was the easiest to kill. Problem with that airplane was that you weren’t going to find yourself in 1v1 since they usually traveled in packs of six to eight. The -21 was a comparably even fight. The one that blew me away was the -17. I went two to three turns with him and then went vertical. That little sucker came right up and was inside my turn at my apex. I was also amazed at just how small those airplane were. Biff.
Wow!
Can't even imagine what it must feel to fly, but by how you describe it, it must have been fun!
Coming from the Eastern block and being into planes, i was shocked by how HUGE the American Fighters were. The F14 Tomcat is my all time favorite but against the migs and especially in close air combat i would go with the F16 all the way.
@@teaser6089 A flying Instructor once told me, 'Anyone can afford to learn to fly. The trick is to manage your budget so you can afford to eat too'.
For my money (and I fly light power not jets but....)
If you don't want to join the military, and you can't afford to fly power aerobatics (that costs loads of money) but is about hyper-precision.....
*The most exciting flying is ridge soaring in gliders/sailplanes*
To maximise lift you're flying about one wing's length from the tip of one wing to the side of a hill or mountain.
That alone gives a far greater sense of speed than (take off & landing excepted) you get with powered flight.
Now add to that you get weird roiling air effects from the topography which can slam you into the hillside in under a second so you are hyper-alert.
And the cherry on the icecream ..... Its probably the cheapest way of flying bar jumping off a cliff with a hang-glider!
@@Farweasel i wish, but i have glasses so i am not allowed to fly right?
@@teaser6089Glasses are no problem. To get a Private Pilot License, you just have to pass a medical exam and not have a condition like epilepsy or serious heart disease that could cause you to suddenly become incapacitated while flying. They are very strict about medications and about mental illness, though.
This was fascinating stuff. It does not surprise me in the least the our Government had more that one secret program going at the same time. They probably still do. I read where General Bond only requested a cockpit briefing in the MIG 23 that lasted roughly three hours where a normal briefing included at least two weeks before actually flying one. I read that our military pilots had stated the MIG 23 was squirrelly and hard to fly and could kill you if you were not well trained. RIP General Robert Bond and Captain Dale Snodgrass. Glad to see you are a Beatles fan.
Fantastic background info on an impressive time in our aviation history. Thank you for this. Well thought out, well presented, and the perspective you share is first-hand. You are not an analyzer from the bench. You've been there. Keep this coming!
Absolutely fascinating piece of aviation history! This is so interesting on so many levels, especially when it comes from someone who has experienced it! Thank you for sharing this!
Ward - These are fascinating videos. I wonder why the comms weren't encrypted between aircraft? The capability is certainly there so why the verbal admonishment against using the word 'MIG' when in an adrenalin fog cloud, someone could use the word word to describe the adversarial birds.
L]
One of the coolest videos I've watched - these insider stories are fantastic! The little tidbit on the AIM-9P at the end is just as interesting to me as the MiG stuff. Those kinds of nuggets really set your channel apart! Great job!
That was an interesting use of an old system, hiding one 'secret' project behind another. When most 'inquisitive types' uncover something covert, they'll assume that they have 'cracked it,' and stop digging. Lesson learned, as you said.
And the same way conspiracy theorists always assume there has to be another layer.
@@countluke2334 Good point. I suppose it may come down to psychological profile; some will be happy with what they find on the first layer, but others will have the desire to keep exploring the rabbit hole.
@@countluke2334 Sadly the Air Force created a lot of UFO conspiracy theories by leaking "tactical deceptions" about UFOs to cover up programs like this.
@@doncarlton4858 Working as intended. Conspiracy theorists are one of the best tools for covering up secrets.
Anyone who wants to figure out what might be going on will have to sift through a load of rubbish conspiracy theories about aliens or gravity propulsion.
@@josephburchanowski4636 yup, there's no one as gullible as a self deluding paranoid conspiracy speculator... (except possibly a devout beliver of any religion)
In regards to heat seeking missile discriminators being able to ignore bright flares, I remember the AFSOC aircraft at the 352nd SOG changing over to new flares that didn't burn visually bright, but did give off intense heat signatures. I forget their designations since it's been over 23 years since I loaded them on an AFSOC C-130, but I do remember them being a marked improvement over the older, brighter flares. I was a Guidance and Control specialist, but when it came to chaff and flare loading, refueling and other tasks such as engine changes and tire/brake replacements we were all part of the crew at the deployed locations and no one went home until the aircraft was mission capable so we all pitched in no matter what the task was.
*As a history freak, this channel is like a honey from God: I don't think I've seen a single video from here that didn't contain **_some_** new nugget of previously unknown information! Just great! Thank you!*
As a navy defence contract worker during the cold wear, I found your 'top gun' video very interesting! I worked on FBM Trident missiles (and have some national secrets filed away in my memory), but what I can say, in terms of nuclear weapons - the Russians are (or maybe WERE past tense) adversaries that we should definitely fear!
YEEESSS!!! Thanks for this video! I met Gail Peck while I was at Nellis AFB when his book came out, he signed it for me. I absolutely love the Aggressor Squadrons...true professionalism and aviation excellence!!...
Ward, there was far more than Constant Peg there…I visited there many times testing the Prowler, and while I won’t address specifics, it certainly allowed EW tactics to be developed against many things with results which mirrored EW performance in Desert Storm, Allied Force, and Iraqi Freedom.
I was wondering how they maintained those MiGs, that's pretty interesting. Pilots just hopping in with no pre-flight check shows a lot of confidence in the maintenance crew!
Deafwing, I no longer have my copy of the book "Red Eagles" by Steve Davies, but there was one particular occasion where the USAF Pilot began to do the traditional walk around the jet (MiG-21F-13 I believe?), and was bluntly halted by the NCO maintenance crew chief! Something to the effect of we don't want you screwing something up with our asset! So the Pilot did just get in and go from that point on.
Cheers! 🍺
Just imagine the money spent on these programs.
@@GrimReaper-wz9me they got 'em out of Malaysia, Burma, and Egypt, and scrounged parts. it was a quite an operation. Low key, bare metal. The "peg" book is a great read. Author takes you in the cockpit with him. There's another book by T.D. Barnes that describes the evaluation and flight testing.
Pilots and other aircrew do a general walk around of the aircraft. If they have a question about the plane they ask the Plane Captain (PC) or crew chief. Who in turn explains it to the crew of what it is and what it does, and yes it is supposed to look like that. The maintainers know more about the planes than the aircrew do.
They have also mig 29 and su 27. Of course if you believe the internet.
ua-cam.com/video/BayjAFra_6U/v-deo.html
check this out you will get a lot of info's there about the program.
Thank you for telling your story. I had heard of the aggressor squadrons before, but I had no idea it was used as cover for the F-117 tests. Brilliant. And your telling of your experiences flying against the "YF" aircraft really held my attention, especially when you broke out with the stick models. That was great.
Thank Ward for your insightful and interesting articles. Your conveyance is entertaining, humorous and educational.
Growing to really love this channel.
Keep it up.
Really appreciate when Ward explains situations using the training models.
I was hoping he would make
some rocket launch and kills' noises.
Thanks!
What a change, aircrew complimenting maintainers, so rare in the air force I served in, well done Ward. A very interesting session too, thanks.
I cannot speak too much on the AF however, I cant tell you that every Airdale knows who keeps the feathers on the birds and they cannot be thanked enough.
The problem with the Air Force, and I served in the Air Guard as well, is that they think they invented flying. I have tons and tons of respect for all Air Force personnel and they do a very professional job.
When comparing the Navy/Marine Corps to the Air Force, I always say that Air Force flying is like going to catholic school where Navy/Corps is like going to public school.
Rah!
hi John good observation I hadn't thought of till u mentioned it. I spent some time in both the Navy and Air Force and at least where I was at the standard squadron setup in the Navy lends to this atmosphere. in the Navy I was seeing other shops and aircrew all the time. in the air force maybe 10% of the same interaction. pros and cons to both im sure but in the Navy you had a lot more interaction which opens opportunities for feedback. you felt like u were part of the package of success.
Pile-its weren't too friendly with us non-aircraft maintenance troops either. As a 304x4 I helped make sure they could communicate with the ATC controllers. Heaven help up if the tower lost comms. I did a stint working on comm systems for Titan II ballistic missiles too. At least those guys didn't dis us to our faces.
I served in the Marine Corps and later the Air Force.
I describe it this way -- the Marine Corps has leadership, the Air Force has management.
I'm not sure what AF you served in. I was a crew chief/line chief/section chief for 21 years and we always got along fine with most of our pilots.
Thanks for this video. I enjoyed it while working on my military miniatures. Made me remember back in the 80's, a guy I knew was working at a job where they were shooting radar beams at various shapes and then collect data on the bounced signal strength. Then one day he told me that the storage where all those shapes were kept was broken into, and the shapes missing. It didn't seem to secretive that they were working on stealth at the time, but years later, when the stealth aircraft were revealed, did I understand that it was for real, and we were successful at creating such aircraft. Yet to this day, I often wonder what happened to those models, and who stole them and where they went. Remains a mystery.
I just learned wayyyy more than I needed to from just 2 of your videos.. Love it.
I really enjoy your videos; I've always found aviation interesting. I grew up in the Soviet Union, and later served in the US navy. I got to see both sides of military aviation up close.
Greetings Soviet Komrade! I grew up in USA 🇺🇸 and ended up being 11B Army Infantry ! Always wanted to fly but I was built to fire rifles and pound the ground I couldn’t make it thru all of the bookwork. I still want to go to Russia 🇷🇺 and fly into space on the 1 MiG that they sell rides on still think it’s one of the fastest jets on the planet 🌎!
That was such a cool story! Fighting and studying enemies closeup and for real, what a ride.
Great debrief, the release of information on what the programs were producing was fantastic, the inverted maneuver were the MiG-23 was an eye opener
Thanks
Hanging out with Col “Evil” Peck this weekend.. he’s still going strong, hoping to finish his RV-8 this year and get it flying! I just sent this to him! Have you read his book “America’s Secret MIG Squadron”?
Hey, Thomas. Tell Evil that Steve Davies says hi!
@@10percenttrue I like your username. As a friend of mine says, "never ruin a good war story by starting it out with 'I'm not sure how much of this is true, but....'"
I own a RV-8, great plane. Peck has to be getting up there in age.
Have you got a full Title, Author and a B/Number would be fantastic!
Luv to read the actual pilot's experiences / recountings for the "real truth" about Military Aircraft!
Also have an RV8, nuthin but fun
Great episode, Ward. I can only imagine the amount of confidence it must have provided the pilots to have actually flown against MiGs. It's one thing to read an intelligence report about an OppFor's capabilities; it's quite another to see it in person. Continue the hard work and great information.
E Pluribus Unum
Mooch, all of your videos are informative and great, but I think that this one has the most new and unexpected information. You discussed topics on here that I'd always heard about but really never know.much about, for obvious reasons. Thank you so much.
Man between listening to You and CW Limoine - i feel like I’m a kid going thru Top Gun after the lesson is over - just listening to Your Experience and Wisdom is Awesome! Thank You!
Most informative! I was in school when there was so much trepidation around the MiG-25, I thought it was a fascinating airplane. I well remember when the defector flew the one to Japan and we started finding out how inferior it was to the countermeasure F-15. Mostly steel construction, no countersunk rivets (that additional drag at Mach 3 must have been INSANE), gigantic fuel-gulping engines, and horrible rear visibility. With the F-15 particularly designed to counter what the USA THOUGHT the MiG-25 was, it's probably fair to say the F-15 (and the Navy's F-14) ruled the skies for far longer than what could have been reasonably ever predicted.
Why would steel construction be a problem for mig-25?
@@klin1klinom Most modern jets are made of stronger, lighter titanium alloys. Steel is comparatively VERY heavy, thus the MiG-25 was a lumbering, heavy machine that required two big, fuel-gulping engines that put serious constraints on its range, to boot.
@@richardadams4928 f-15 and f-16 were initially made of mostly aluminum alloys, which soften at speeds close to Mach 1.5. It isn't suitable for Mach 2.8 dedicated interceptor like mig-25. Titanium is notoriously difficult to weld and shape, and quite expensive, too. So, the only appropriate material at the time for the job was stainless steel, especially considering that mig-25 was a mass-produced aircraft. It wasn't "lumbering" by any means, given average intercept speed of Mach 2.5, and it did what it was designed for. It's also worth reiterating that mig-25 was purely interceptor/reconnaissance aircraft that was never meant for fighter duties. It didn't even have a gun.
If I recall the Soviets developed the MiG-25 as a response to the XB-70. It was a high speed, high altitude interceptor, not the super fighter we had feared. After the XB-70 program was cancelled, the Soviets pressed on with the MiG-25 but it had no one to fight. The revamped B-1B was redesigned as a lower speed low level penetrator and again, the Foxbat had no one to fight.
@@stevescott9474 In late 1970s Foxbat was re equiped with doppler radar and IRST and got look down shoot down capacity. Combined with BVR missiles it was capable interceptor.
By chance I’ll come across and watch your videos here and there, but now I find myself CONSTANTLY tuning in ! Very interesting stuff ! Thank you
I spent many detachments in Fallon with VF-302, and VAW-78. So the Nugget became very familiar.
Do you remember the “tiny” casino on the corner attached to the Nugget? That was the “ Sagebrush Casino”. I was stationed at the NAS in 1973 and had a part-time job running the projectors at the Fallon Theater right across the street.
@@michaelsmoak1146 I do remember the Sagebrush. My first detachment to Fallon was in 1982 with VF-302, and the last trip to Fallon was in 92 with VAW-78. I went to a P-3 outfit after that, so no more Fallon det's after that. I remember the breakfast bar was a pretty good deal too.
I remember pigs in space Wednesday nights at the nugget! Biscuits and sausage gravy for breakfeast!
After the 'reveal' of SR-71, Way 'back in the day', if the U.S. rocked up in 'Enterprise G' for the 2021 Airshow circuit,Most folks would just claim they always knew they had it and were just waiting for the right occasion!
@@peterkeane7767 lol
Very interesting program - especially the lessons learned about aggressor craft and the program "within" a program. BTW, I received Punk's War last week. Thanks.
Danke!
I worked at Tonopah on the F-117 program with Link Flight Simulation from early 1989 to just after the Air Force went public with the plane. There was one hangar that sat at the opposite end of the 117 hangars that people said had parked MIGs inside. For the whole time I was there, I never saw one outside however. Great story! Thanks for the insight into that side of Tonopah's history.
Bitchen Betty driver or maintaier?
Dude now you've said that there's a black van outside your house with strange looking men in it.
@@JagdgeschwaderX doesn't everyone have one of those in front of their house
@@williamhattenhauer7322 Let me just take a loo....oh man 😢😢
I remember, as a Marine in 1984, sleeping under the stars beside the ramp at Fallon, on our way to Bridgeport for SERE school.
Did not know about that SERE, went to Warner Springs Dec85
@@S211213 Maryland, 1993 SERE!!!
@@razor75250 Boot! ;-)
Warner Springs SERE for me also in 1984. I had previously been though Bridgeport for Mountain Warfare School in 1979. Never heard of a SERE school there.....
What an absolutely fascinating insight. Came across your video by accident and was hooked! Beautifully concise and informative. I'm in the UK and my late father was RAF for 28yrs. Thank you for sharing.
In 1988 the F117 was a simulator fighter program by MicroPros. I went out and bought a 386 computer with a CGA monitor just to fly the simulator.
It was interesting flying combat missions deep into Russia hiding from the different types of radars.
I understood how to fly the different flight profiles based on the different types of radars as a ASR radar tech and fixed wing / rotorcraft pilot 😉
It was great fun and educational at the same time.
There are few historical stories that I enjoy more than Have Blue. Especially the bit about the math behind it's creation being a small bit of commentary at the end of a poorly received paper written by a Soviet bloody radar genius, or so it appears. Oh, and the genius that took over Skunk Works from Kelly that had the balls to gamble on it.
I'm going from 37-year-old memory here, so details are a bit fuzzy. One of my assignments in the Air Force was as an instructor pilot in the T-39 out of Langley AFB, Virginia from October 1981 to June, 1984. Shortly before I moved on to my next assignment in June 1984, I picked up General Robert Bond, commander of Air Force Systems Command at Wright-Patterson AFB, Ohio. While my copilot sat in the back, I sat in the right seat while General Bond flew the aircraft in the left seat from Wright-Patterson AFB to a military field in Nevada (I don't remember which). A day or two later, I learned that he'd died flying a MIG-23. I don't know, but maybe my flight with him was the last flight he survived.
Absolutely fascinating stories, Ward, thanks for sharing!
I enjoyed the hell outta this!! Having spent a lifetime as a BAC avionics support engineer, and having seen both civilian and military mechanics practice their trade, those "Y-Series" maintenance crews were likely ALL "golden wrench" types.
Ward I really enjoyed this video. I've always been an aviation nut so learning about air to air combat and all the fascinating back story regarding the F117 cover was super to hear! Thanks.