How a Navy Tomcat Shot Down an Air Force Phantom During a Training Exercise
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- Опубліковано 24 лип 2021
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In the fall of 1987 a new Tomcat pilot assigned to VF-74 aboard the USS Saratoga shot down a USAF RF-4 while participating in Display Determination, a NATO exercise that was being conducted in the Mediterranean Sea off of the west coast of Italy. The missteps the pilot took along the way remain as implausible and shocking today as they were more than a quarter century ago.
And the story's epilogue is also pretty amazing with how the Tomcat pilot reinvented himself within the Navy only to have his past haunt him 25 years later. - Розваги
I was in the back seat of the RF-4C, parts are true and parts a not. We did not have chaff installed in our jet, nor did we fire any chaff, the suspected chaff that was seen was a Centerline fuel going dry, which is common and normal as the RF-4C vents small amounts of fuel. The comment about the WSO is simply NOT TRUE, NO ONE RESTRAINED ME AS THERE WAS NO NEED. PISSED YES - RESTRAINED NO. RECEIVED NO SWAG (other than the uniform we were given) nor did we want any. We meet Adm. Borda but never met Capt. Frost.
Randy, I met you at the Bentwaters Oclub circa 1989. Hope you're doing well. Cheers! Skid
Thank you for setting the record straight here. I hope your comment gets the full attention it deserves.
This needs to be pinned.
I'm so glad y'all made it out of there alive. I hadn't heard about this incident, so I didn't know if there were fatalities initially. You're a kinder man than me, that's for sure.
I couldn't believe how the offending pilot reacted, and I would've wanted a few 'words' with him... But ejection probably takes a lot of you.
This definitely needs a pin and I have no idea how to tell the uploader lol
Dorsey's reasoning reminds me of something I did at my first job as a teenager, I worked at an outdoor go kart track, and during training they told us to NEVER drive a go kart the wrong way down the track. I took that so literally that when it was time to close-up on my first shift, my boss asked me to move the remaining go-karts from the front of the pit lane to the back, and so I jumped in a go-kart and drove it all the way around the track and into the back end of the pit lane. When I got out my boss was baffled and angry, he asked me why I didn't just drive it the very short distance back along the start straight and into the back of the pits. I said "You told me NEVER to drive the wrong way down the track?" The rest of my time at that job I'm pretty sure everyone thought I was an idiot, but I was just trying to follow the rules.
Sun Tzu says: “If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, then the general is to blame. But, if orders are clear and the soldiers nevertheless disobey, then it is the fault of their officers.”
It is not your fault. They’re the idiots. I can see why they think you were the idiot but really, it was him. He was not clear that there are exceptions with “unless.”
@@intorsusvolo7834 Seriously. There is this concept called common sense. I don’t won’t someone who could watch a Air Force jet refuel from a Navy tanker then say he shot it down because he thought it was hostile, in any military position. The man literally tried to kill two fellow American soldiers during a training exercise and thought that was completely fine.
@@chrisledbetter9278 I was referring to the go-kart story, not the fighter incident. If I were the fighter pilot, I would not fire a live missile at a friendly manned aircraft during a training exercise even if I was told to. Besides, he asked his RIO for confirmation. I would have asked whoever has authority.
You did right, never compromise a safety protocol. When you start creating exceptions, you allow for the possibility of making a mistake. That's why you always look both ways when crossing a one way street.
That, and it's the driver going the wrong way that'll hit ya !
Your boss should have commended you, corrected themselves, and went forward
I was in an artillery unit at Bragg, and during an exercise, The battalion commander called for a hipshoot for one of our platoons in convoy. Normally the survey party would find a spot to place the guns using the GPS and ten digit coordinates, so as to maximize accuracy, but in a hipshoot you pull over to the nearest open space, do a hasty survey, emplace, and fire. Time is of the essence, so the fire direction control section can't set up their computers or phone lines, and have to use old fashioned analogue calculators, and send the info to the guns by messenger.
This is very risky, and was forbidden by the post commander's policy on Bragg, because of the increased chances of making a mistake and dropping a round outside the buffer zone around the impact area, so the platoon leader questioned the order, but was told to proceed.
Four guns loaded and fired three rounds each in quick succession, and then over the net were hear SHOT OUT, which means a round has landed outside the impact area. All hell broke loose. Everybody had to drop everything and run to the rear of their guns, and in a few minutes, the battalion commander and battery commander arrive looking like death.
A 98 pound inert training round, which we called Smurf rounds because they were painted blue, had landed in the back yard of a house outside post, about two miles or so outside the intended target area, and left a nice big hole in the ground just a few feet from the kitchen and a child's swingset.
Of course there was the usual scramble to blame someone, and the platoon leader was designated to be the sacrificial goat, but he refused to take the blame, and requested a court martial. The whole matter was forgotten about, and nobody paid for what was obviously the battalion commander's mistake.
When I was in the FDC we used “SHOT, OVER” to tell the observer rounds were in flight, and his acknowledgment was “SHOT, OUT”. That way he knew when to watch for the impact.
Well this just gave me a new fear... I live maybe 4-5 kilometers from the impact zone of a certain Marine base that fires live 155 rounds regularly (the area looks like the moon on google earth, just craters across a solid 2sq km). It's kind of nice waking up to the sounds of big guns and explosions shaking the house because I'm weird like that, but I swear to god if those jar heads drop a shell on me...
Eh on second thought, there are worse ways to die.
How the FUCK did the battalion commander not get blamed??
@@MrNicoJac I'm sure he did, they just kept it quite because like every corrupt organization, the military does not like negative publicity or embarrassment.
@@MrNicoJac every time you hear of a big fuck up, there's maybe 10 others that never made it to the public. And even on the ones you hear, to get someone higher up seriously blamed they need to get caught with their pants down... like not just down, stripped naked, tons of evidence, massed witnesses, etc.
When I was in the Marines a sergeant I know told this story: During a large combined arms exercise at Camp Pendleton the infantry was told there is no friendly air, all aircraft are hostile. This was to allow them to practice immediate action for an attack from the air, which is the everyone fire at the enemy aircraft with everything they have. The philosophy is, even if small arms fire is unlikely to bring down a plane pilots don't like being shot at and throwing up a wall of lead will cause him to break off the attack or at least keep his distance and prevent strafing the troops. Nobody had live rounds, everyone was firing blanks. Sure enough, while they're on the march an OV10 Bronco (small fixed wing observation plane) flies low over the column. Everybody start firing at the plane, which promptly erupts into a fireball and crashes. 'CEASE FIRE, CEASE FIRE!" The Marines immediately run to the crash site, the first man there is running so fast he trips over a helmet which it turns out contains the head of the pilot. On investigation it is discovered the Bronco was flying below the minimum altitude and had struck high tension wires, which destroyed the aircraft. But a lot of grunts were wondering what bonehead had live rounds and shot down the plane!
I was working at Six Flags Over Texas a few years ago as security, and during one of our afternoon briefings out on the patio of the security office there was a plane flying overhead advertising some insurance or car rental company. Every time our manager would try to speak up this plane would be almost directly over head as he circled and he'd rev his engine RPMs up to keep his airspeed up. He had to fly pretty damn low too so as to be under the approach for aircraft inbound to DFW International Airport (the landing pattern for the parallel runways basically straddles the park on the east and west sides). This made it practically impossible to hear anything anyone was saying. Our Manager, Cal, got mad at this aircraft and pantomimed using a deck mounted AA Gun to shoot the plane down. About 20 minutes later the aircraft had to make an emergency landing on an Interstate Hwy south of the park because it had developed an oil leak. We gave Cal so much crap about shooting down a plane using imaginary bullets! I think corporate even gave him a rather humorous plaque for defense of the park or something. Here's the news coverage of the plane's landing:
ua-cam.com/video/4SIP5P63seY/v-deo.html
Sad fact, not only is the helmet there to provide protection for the pilot, especially during ejection, it also keeps the pilots head intact during a crash so his head can be identified. The pilots head is usually torn from his body during a crash.
@@crazybrit-nasafan That sounds rather far fetched.
@@AudieHolland it is unfortunately true. With aircraft speeds increasing in the late 40's early 50's,, after an accident there were very little left of the aircrew that was identifiable. Imagine what would be left of a pilots head after the aircraft hitting the ground at speeds of 400 mph and above. The aircraft hits the ground and decellerates almost instantly as it crumples into itself. The pilot is restrained by his harness but his head isn't, this is torn off on impact and usually smashes into the instrument panel. The helmet keeps his head intact enough for identification. This info came to me from an ex member of RAF mountain rescue. He has seen this first hamd.
@@crazybrit-nasafan Sounds more like they created the procedure after they found that the head was still relatively intact because of the helmet.
Not that the helmet was designed specifically to preserve the head for identification.
All I know is the helmet is to prevent the pilot from bashing his head against the inside of the cockpit and injuring himself that way.
What I think would be more plausible and practical, is that the helmet carries an ID of the wearer inside. So even if the head is burnt beyond recognition and even dental comparison is not working, that would still identify the pilot wearing it.
I was the Squadron Operations Yeoman for VF-74 during this incident. I recall being on-duty for more than 48-hours straight. The message traffic between the squadron and Sixth Fleet was insane.
I'm sure it was, Mike. You'll never forget those days.
Curious as to how sharp you were after first 24 hr ?
@@eflanagan1921 Two words, Micro Naps.
@@eflanagan1921 ; Admittedly, Navy coffee, and cigarettes. No Red Bull in those days. It was an all-hands effort. My squadron colleagues and Air Wing 17 staffs assisted as well. Teamwork. 😎👍
@@buckshot704 what was the atmosphere on the boat like? I can imagine it was tense as all hell
Had a front row seat for this one. Aviation Boatswains Mate- Handler. 19 years old. Standing on a catwalk when this happened. Saw the impact, the disabled plane, the rescue. Wild seeing this now. I was never told this much back then!!!
LoL as a plane captain aviation electrician mate I witness also VS - 30 diamond cutters cag - 17 it was unreal !!
I posted above but just had to chime in here. What's up shipmates? Plane captain/LSE from HS-3 here, ha ha. I was in comracksackone that day catchin some badly needed zzzz's. so I didn't get to see it, but it was headline news when night check started. Btw David, my best friend in the entire world was from VS-30... Gary Duncan, did you know him? He worked in intermediate maint. AT the end of the hanger bays. I used to give him shit all the time about not working on the roof and being a skate. Too much fun! Fair winds fellas
Any idea how it happened that a simul engagement sortie was equipped with live ammo and live munitions controls? Did the pilot know that the munitions were live?
@@eschelar On deployment, all of the Carrier's Aircraft have live munitions, just in case.
The RF-4 WSO commented here as well.
Great video, Ward. I agree with so many others here that you are a great storyteller, regardless of the medium (I’ve read the Punk trilogy). I’d like to offer some corrections and fill in some details for those who care to read them.
I was commissioned at the same time as Ward, I was in the Tomcat RAG at the same time as him, and was deployed with VF-103 (VF-74’s sister squadron) at the time of this tragedy. The FNAEB was comprised of three pilots and a flight surgeon. One of the pilots was from VF-74, and two of us were from VF-103 (the XO and me). I was a “polished nugget” on this cruise, which is to say it was still my first tour, but this was my second deployment aboard Saratoga. I’m very impressed with the accuracy of this account as it happened over 30 years ago.
“Smoke didn’t make a good impression” - good story and I’ve never heard it before. It’s funny and it perfectly captures the FNG-Old Salt encounter. However, as to Smoke’s reputation I will tell you that the VF-74 Operations Officer at the time, “Cuds” Wyatt (who went on to command a fighter squadron), told me a couple of years ago that Smoke was the most professional Junior Officer pilot he had ever encountered in his Naval career. This aligns with the handful of times that I interacted with him as an airwing Landing Signal Officer. When I debriefed him on his landings, he was humble and fiercely attentive. He wanted to improve as rapidly as he could.
As to his mindset, it’s important to note that Smoke joined us on cruise. He didn’t do any work-ups (at-sea training periods prior to deployment) so he had never experienced the call “Red and Free” while in an actual cockpit. He had only experienced this call in the simulator where the context was outer air battle with enemy bombers attacking the Carrier Group. What was old hat for almost every aviator on the boat, was new to him. This is important when you consider what Dutch is saying from the back seat (and nuggets rely heavily on the wisdom and experience back there). “He probably doesn’t want you to lock him up,” and “Yeah shoot him” weren’t charged comments from Dutch’s perspective. There’s absolutely no way that he would understand how Smoke was hearing this.
Ward talks about how subtle the cue is for the RIO to see that the Master Arm switch has been armed (weapon selected, SW in this case, turns bright). However, Dutch noted in his testimony that because the CRT was pointing nearly straight up, the sun shining in through the canopy required the RIO to shade the display to see the section that he was looking at. There’s no reason that he would be shading the lower right corner to see the status of the Master Arm Switch. An experienced RIO is a system barrier to a new pilot’s inexperience, but ergonomics rendered this system barrier useless.
Smoke was “sort of tactically astute.” No, he was well above average for his time in the fleet. Several of the witnesses that we interviewed commented on how Smoke was constantly in the ready room reading the classified manuals to expand his tactical knowledge.
The John Wayne is unrepentant characterization is apocryphal. Walking into the ready room thinking that you had foiled a rogue pilot, it’s understandable that you’d stride in. Once he realized what had happened is a very different story. Smoke was humble and devastated at how this turned out. It’s also understandable that squadron mates would want to denigrate him because he had made the squadron look bad.
Monday morning quarterbacks, and I include myself and the other FNAEB members in this, are dumbfounded that he could have joined on the RF-4 on the tanker and not “know” that he was a friendly. But how would Smoke have the experience to know that? Granted, at 0 knots and 1g with 30+ years of hindsight and knowing the outcome, it’s obvious. Sorry, that’s not how human cognition works.
When we were deployed, it was extremely rare that we didn’t carry live ordnance. This is still true. This is a key consideration in the FNAEB recommendations.
As to the FNAEB, Smoke’s father wasn’t even remotely considered. I was, and am, a card-carrying JOPA (Junior Officer Protection Association) member and if anything it would have factored against him in my book. Further, my personality didn’t really fit well with Smoke’s so that would be two strikes against him, but our work was far too important to let personality enter the equation. As part of our investigation Smoke underwent a deeply invasive psychological assessment (one that convinced me that I never wanted to be on the other end of the table). He was completely normal and his profile was wholly consistent with the profession.
FNAEB recommendations:
1) Smoke would keep his wings but would never fly an aircraft that carried ordnance. As others have noted and as the board discussed, wielding lethal force requires that you have a bias against using it. You really need a compelling reason to shoot. As Ward relates, this is where the rendezvous on the tanker really weighed in. Put Smoke in an E-2 or a C-9 and he would have excelled.
2) We absolutely did not blame the squadron. We blamed the system in which F-14’s carried live ordnance and yet used exactly the same verbiage in exercises as we did in real-world engagements. As memory serves, we discussed something like, “Maroon and Free” for exercises. I’m not sure what our formal recommendation included. As to “simulated” cluing Smoke in, it’s nonsense. When Dutch is transmitting “simulated”, Smoke is wrestling with the weapons system; he’s task saturated. Any Human Factors researcher will tell you that we task shed in those situations and there’s not a chance that Smoke heard “simulated.”
FNAEB aftermath:
Smoke’s assignment when he left VF-74 was vindictive and punitive; he was assigned to the command based at Dam Neck that operated the drones that were used for missile firing exercises. Typical sadistic response, “Oh you like shooting things down? Here, you can be in charge of things that get shot down.” As Ward discusses, he persevered.
All endorsements above the FNAEB were retrospective, counterfactual, and were simply covering their ass. Blame the guy at the sharp end because the system is just fine. While many have commented on Smoke’s dad being an Admiral, this is actually the only place that rank and advancement is relevant to the story. Everyone north of Smoke in the Chain of Command continued to advance. Every time that I reflect on the arrogance of the USN in the aftermath of this awful event, I think of Scott Snook’s “Friendly Fire.” When the system’s flaws emerge, let’s blame the guy that was there.
With the above noted, I really liked and admired Admiral Boorda. He flew in my back seat and I was stunned by how quickly he absorbed the intricacies of air combat. He called me by my call sign when we encountered one another on the boat… I stayed with “Admiral” when I addressed him. The Airwing nicknamed him “Tatoo” (and he wore it proudly) after the character on Fantasy Island (he wasn’t very tall). He was well liked because he supported us well, and his endorsement was inconsistent with the man that I knew.
One of the “fixes” that the USN came up with was to issue direction for all squadrons to drill a hole in the Master Arm switch (which was already guarded) and to install shear wire through the hole. That way, the pilot would have to be sure that he really wanted to shoot something. Idiots! Smoke didn’t accidentally arm his missiles, the shear wire wouldn’t have mattered. What’s pathetic/funny is that an audit later showed that several squadrons had installed safety wire instead of shear wire. If someone had needed to arm the missiles, he couldn’t have.
My final comments are for Randy Sprouse and Mike Ross. Randy, the story about you being irate/restrained and you guys getting Swag was active within hours of your event. This is what I heard not later than the next day. I appreciate you sharing the real story to set the record straight. It’s a miracle that you two survived. I can only try to imagine the trauma of this event, not to mention the ongoing suffering of multiple surgeries. I’m glad you’re both alive and I deeply regret that my Navy failed to learn from this event. Instead, we chose to blame the “bad apple” with smug confidence that the system was perfectly safe.
@Steven Montague: thank you for the read and correcting so much of the misinformation presented from Ward's yarn spinning.
Amazing testimony.
I just took a look at what smoke does for a living now. Doesn't seem like such a good guy to me; maybe he's just bitter at what happened. I wish I had an absurdly long driveway and a pool with predatory lending friends.
it's wild to me that it wasn't made abundantly clear to him that it was not a real event. in my USAF time (00 to 08) during exercises, on the exercise paper or over any sort of giant voice system, there was always very clearly "EXERCISE EXERCISE EXERCISE" at the top and bottom of the event. How on earth the navy wasn't doing the same thing in Smoke's time is bewildering.
In my time in the Navy I learned that it is always someone's fault and it is always the junior one involved. I surprised that some AQ3 did not get the blame because he worked on fire control systems.
I was a H-3 pilot in HS 3 when the shoot down occurred. I had just landed on the deck and was in the process of folding my blades. The Boss called "plane in the water starboard side" and I immediately went from fold to spread to get back into the air. But the helo blew a hydraulic line and my playmate who was 10 miles away in a dip with the sonar deployed got the rescue. Later I was walking in the passage way from my ready to my stateroom when Dorsey came by. He asked me for directions to the ready room so he could go down and thank the rescue swimmer that pulled the guys out of the water. He looked like hell. Depressed as a man could be. After he left me I continued on my way to my state room and here comes the two Air Force pilots. Both had separated shoulders from the ejection. I was 6'2" and 225 and walking past them I felt small. They seemed to be in good spirits. Heard stories about what happened too Dorsey over the years glad to finally know the straight scoop. By the way Admiral Boorda was one hell of a Naval Officer. The whole air wing would have followed him anywhere! He was held in great respect and his loss was a blow to the US Navy. The guy who wrote the article about him needs his ass kicked for making mountains out of mole hills. Would love to smack him in the mouth if I ever see him.
I like that you offered a perspective showing the humanity of Dorsey. As incredulous as this event was, I think it’s unnecessary to continually hammer him. The Judge, Jury, and Executioner mob mentality from the peanut gallery is tiresome.
Somewhere I had heard the RF-4 crew was referred to as “Beef Flight” because of how big they were.
Totally agree with your comment regarding Admiral Boorda. I understand it was later determined he was justified wearing the medals he had. I also think the fallout from Tailhook ‘91 took a toll on the Admiral as well.
@@richarddupp1980 & @davidtaylor6057 - I agree with both of your posts regarding Adm. Boorda. On my ship we called him 'Shorty 1 Star' ( never to his face of course) and I don't know another sailor who would claim they wouldn't follow him anywhere. That man w great for the navy. I have several memories of him coming on our ship.
While it's true the tailhook scandal may have contributed to his state of mind at the time, I've always been somewhat curious about how much Kara Hultgreen, and Cary Lohrenz were on Adm. Boorda's mind when he killed himself. I was not personally close to Mike, but I was in his squadron/crudesgru and don't believe the "unauthorized ribbon device" controversy for a minute. I think having the death of a good pilot and the controversy over standards for female combat pilot quals likely ate at him more than a medal. I know he cared less about himself than he did his shipmates.
I was fuel safety at NAS North Island when this occurred. We used to get a monthly synopsis from the fleet safety office outlining the incidents of the month with an opinion from a senior safety officer attached. These were bare bones, clinical statements; nobody was doing stand-up here. But they couldn't word this one in a way that wasn't jaw-dropping, and mine was hanging open halfway through it. The only detail I remember in precise detail about the whole writeup, 34 years later, was the safety officer's one-word assessment: "Unbelievable!"
You’re such a great storyteller Ward!
And as I was about to comment. too. The stories with the embedded level of detail to make it all complete and clear by the end, are a great part of the works Ward creates.
And such stories they are. Makes me wonder
So much crossover between strings and wings! Along with storytelling, my favourite things..... I shouldn't have been surprised to find Mr Beato here I suppose! Do you guys both ride motorcycles too?
You're a pretty decent mother goose yourself sir! LOL!
I'm a car audio sound quality competitor and music lover.
And a lover of your channel sir!
So are you, Rick!
CDR Carroll, I was in VR-24 based in Sigonella at the time of this incident. I was a C-2 Aircrewman and trapped on Sara at the end of the cycle that Dorsey trapped on after he shot down the F-4. The flight deck was a-buzz thinking that one of Sara's Tomcats had shot down a rough Phantom, referring to you Intel on the "highjacked kamikaze" possibility. I also made a hit the next morning, my pax were a USAF COL and 1-Star coming to "visit" the ship. I wasn't crew, but we took the F-4 crew, COL and 1-Star off the next day back to Sig and a waiting T-39 took them back to Aviano. AMSC(AW/NAC) B.C. Thompson
The whole setup enabled Dorsey's mistake. Don't send someone on training with live ammo, then tell them their mission has changed, and then say that weapon status is, "Red and free," and then say, "Yeah, shoot him." Getting angry with Dorsey at that point allows all the other people and systems that were in error to be absolved of blame.
I agree with this. However, my gut feeling is that anyone who has severe problems with admitting error or with asking pertinent questions when peoples' lives are on the line is needing a reprimand. I think the Navy is at fault for breeding this disregard for reality-thinking pilots. It's just that Dorsey doesn't get a pass, even if the Navy is the primary aggressor here.
There are many times that we carried either “dummy” ordinance (blue tubes) or live catum ordinance (captive carry) where the weapon sensors were active but the weapon firing mechanism was disconnected and rendered inoperable.
The problem with training in a real world environment is that there is still a real world threat and a need for those airborne aircraft to deploy live weapons on any threat that may pop up.
He shouldn’t apologize or have feeling of remorse if he truly believes he was following orders. One think I’ve learned is never apologize if you believe you’ve done the right thing. Apologies are sometimes if not most of the time viewed as an omission of guilt.
It's OK to split the blame with more than 1 person.
@@aaaaa1957 Never apologize once he realized ... far too late ... that American F4s are driven by American Air Force Pilots and that he was shooting at the same guy whom he just watched refuel? Nope. He should have apologized decades ago. That was just dumb situational awareness, and only a fool would not recognize that mistake. The "I would do it again" mentality is just wrong.
Stop shooting at Americans unless you really, really have a straight-up confirmation and re-confirmation that the exercise has turned into reality.
Next time I think I'm having a bad day, I am going to remember this episode.
Yeah, damn! Very lucky though. Thought this was going to end in death.
The next time I think I'm a real fuck-up at work, I'm going to remember this.
Storytelling is a gift, and Ward's got that gift!
I could do better than Ward!!!
…Just kidding. 🤙🏻✅
Absolutely.
Agreed!
I was thinking that too, great story teller
The mark of a true aviator…”There I was.” Totally agree though, love Ward’s style, keep em coming!
Ward - great video as always. I met Mike Ross at my father in law's funeral (Prior to becoming an F-4 driver he was a B-52 navigator and was on my father in law's crew) 12 years ago. He spoke about the incident vividly - exactly as you told it. Mike was very concerned about his WSO and thought he was killed as he was coming down in his chute. From what I got from hearing this story from Mike is he couldn't believe that Dorsey never contacted him or offered any apology until he came up for promotion and was naturally very upset about that. Again, great stuff, keep it coming.
The fact that his reaction to learning his kill had been blue on blue wasn’t immediate horror and regret speaks volumes about his character.
Yeah I think they already said he had the perfect prerequisites for intel.
Very true.
@@humboldtdrygoods1087 That's funny as hell bro. I used to run a bit with some IS's from the boat ...they were meatheads but fun to party with. And definitely bereft of character ha ha.
100% take him out of the skies in the interest of our the TRUST of his fellow pilots
It’s tricky to apologize or show remorse because it can and be viewed as you really thought you might be wrong. If an apology is to be made you do it after The inquiry. Any good lawyer will tell you “ Say Nothing “ the includes showing emotion either way. The fact he was able to keep his wings and stay in the military AND get a law degree on the Navy’s dine tell you he did the right thing.
Hell, even the soviet guy who actually got an order to nuke the US hesitated.
Yes, and he paid for hesitating.
Thank God that he did. I would like to send him a bottle of vodka.
If you're referring to Stanislav Petrov...he didn't get orders to nuke the US. He knew his sensor systems weren't giving him true indications but he also knew that if he followed procedures by reporting the questionable status from his sensors, his leaders could have ordered a nuclear launch.
@@myakkadan He drank a bottle of vodka and slept for the next two days straight!
@@andruschbuschda3883 nah, he didn't
Can’t get over Dorsey witnessing the fuel up; but still “blew him up real good!”
I can. Can you see from the tanker who's behind the stick of the RF4?
I don’t think the crew of the tanker were in play. The idiot who didn’t understand it was a simulation was.
@@jamesblatchford3738
The tanker? I'm thinking ahead here... Never mind.
Yeah, well... I would have asked for confirmation from someone else but the RIO. However, with all the confusing messages and orders whizzing about - and his faulty training - and the warning about kamikaze terrorists - I can see why he would be discombobulated.
I can see this happening. These folks aren't stocking vending machines or driving a truck. You are taught to get into fighting mode and perform at a high level. A newer pilot in a new squadron, lacking a comfort zone, can get sidetracked by a confusing message and revert to training mode. In combat training on the ground we don't give soldiers live ammo. The navy should consider using weapons with no warhead for training. in 1987, the loss of that RF4 was big because it wasn't replaceable.
@@Peter_Riis_DK The boom operator CAN see the aircrew of the refueling ac.... eyes or on-camera ----plugging the boom in is not an automatic procedure, it's visual. And in what 'Star Wars' galaxy do terrorists have the ability to steal/fly a friggin' RF-4, >I guess the ground crew would have to be part of it....since at that time Phantoms did not 'cartridge' start anymore< then NAVIGATE to a tanker track on the other side of Italy, spoofing ATC along the way, then fool a tanker crew & and then KNOW how to in-flight re-fuel and then KNOW EXACTLY where the carrier is to attack it.....all the time using the correct frequencies/call-signs/checklists and check-in procedures..... and then KNOW how to activate an ecm pod and deploy chaff?
and Aviano AFB isn't going to say a da*n thing?!?
Clint Eastwood might get away with it in a movie....
Mr. Dorsey's rejection of all that reality is amazing
but
I agree that there is some teeny gravitas to the scenario that he was given some stupid instructions ( who gives a real-world, 'free-fire' command for exercises???? ) + that 'spy-sh*t' switch to a 'double-secret-probation' frequency + carrying live missiles + some ambiguous rio statements.
.....with a little leap of logic, you can understand some of the confusion in his brain, but all this 'pretzel' logic sinks
----BOTH pilot and rio had CLOSE eyes on the phantom on the tanker....and it was all normal.....no 'koo-koo-kamikaze' anything.
[my question --- did both aircrews check-in with each other with hand signals or comm? Did the 14 check-in with the tanker (if I were the tanker p.i.c...I'd be very angry that a fighter just appeared & formed up on me without a 'check-in') Did the Phantom crew tell the tanker? Did the exercise atc facilities tell the tanker? ....If no to all these, that's another BIG 'exercise' Fk-up.]
Bottom line --if you get 'stupid/confusing' directions or 'things' just aren't 'right'.... you demand clarification over-and-over again, even asking your fellow aircrew member(s), until you're 'un-confused' and FK-IT that you may have to buy rounds later at the port/base bar
-------it's peacetime and it's faaaar better to buy rounds and get a aggravating call-sign then to wreck your flight career/life by sending an aircrew to the bottom of the med for those snarky, arrogant, well-dressed Italian fishes to feed on......
I am a naval aviator and retired captain. I loved your story and I can relate to it completely. There are a lot of naval officers who made rank despite horrific aircraft accidents because they had a family member acting as their guardian.
I was on the USS Saratoga's deck that day, when I was an AO3 (E4) with CAG-17's A-6 squadron (VA-85). I had always believed the Tomcat was flying CAP during the exercise, and the confusion occurred as a result of a more miscommunication between the ship's CIC, the E2-C, and Tomcat. I never knew the pilot had eyes on the aircraft prior. I had also heard when the engagement started the F-4 wasn't transmitting IFF. But that's "scuttlebutt" for you. One item I can clarify, the H-3 was already in the air (presumably doing ASW), as we were between launch and recovery cycles at the time. However, the SAR helo did overfly us as relatively low altitude, and faster than I ever saw an H-3 fly anywhere. When we went into recovery, the Air Boss put an exclusion zone around the Tomcat once the crew was out and all the pins were in. Very interesting to hear a more informed account of the incident. We had lost a crew from our squadron in a training accident before the cruise. So, we were relieved to learn the crew had ejected and been recovered.
This story is a great lesson for the kids: Go officer! When I was in, they article 15'd enlisted soldiers for writing a hot check at the PX. Career over. This guy shoots down a friendly and gets nominated for a star. Unbelievable.
This guy shoots down a friendly during peacetime mind you
@@sandman2495 peacetime? Ask them Beruit Marines or the USS STARK crew how peaceful the 80s were. The USN/USMC were pretty busy dealing with terrorism in that region thruout the 80s.
@@h.r.puffnstuff8705 Doesn't matter. Besides everything discussed in the video, there is still ROE. No way the rules allowed this guy to draw down on any aircraft and pull the trigger without about fifty layers of approval. He's a criminal straight up and the Navy's decision to promote him after this is criminal too.
"Fuck up, Move up" was an all too common theme at times.
@@h.r.puffnstuff8705 I was thinking more like fog of war. Not like they were in a fur-ball that ended up with a blue on blue. I’m a bit surprised there weren’t more comms between him and the RIO. Guess all the holes in the Swiss cheese lined up.
"Good kill!"
"WTF???"
I was stationed onboard Saratoga as an ASE-3 keeping that “yellow gear” going. And remember “ There is no air support without ground support!” Thanks for you and your wonderful channel!
I did not know Mike at the time of his service; however, he and I became friends during the 2000's. I had a serious back injury some years ago and it was debilitating, so Mike and I have exchanged stories, including breaking bones in our feet due to muscle atrophy and reduced sensation due to our back injuries. I've had two surgeries and feel I'm lucky as a result of doing something stupid, but Mike, with all his surgeries and a host of other things, was without culpability in life changing injures.
Rather than get into personality problems I see in Dorsey as well as the nepotism that allowed him to escape what I feel was a criminal act, his alleged comment in front of a board saying something to the effect of, 'If I had it to do over, I'd do the same thing.' That chilling statement alone says to me as a psychologist that, if Dorsey had any remorse at all, it would have superseded his drive to remain in the Navy and advance in rank. One would think, even a lesser man would have resigned his commission, gone on to law school (daddy would have paid for it), and lived with guilt as a practicing civilian attorney.
Mike and I are the same age, almost to the day, and last week we had another lunch get-together scheduled. Mike, as often is the case, backed out at the last minute because of pain and other direct results of Dorsey's unconscionable act -- following Mike and his rear from the tanker and shooting them down!
That unconscionable act destroyed his career as an Air Force officer, an Air Force pilot, then the Air Force screwed Mike right up to and including retirement -- yet another unconscionable act visited upon Mike. I would never compare myself to Mike since I did not serve and I would never say my injures as a result of my negligence were ever worse than Mike's; however, I will say that my quality of life, abilities with a catastrophic injury, complications from surgeries and return to some sense of normalcy as I age has so far exceed Mike's that I feel guilty rolling around in such a state of minimally painful recovery.
As Mike's friend, I will not expand on his condition since I have known him, and my comments have only been based on things from media and the public record. I will say in a very general sense, you do not know half of what Mike endures and is enduring in his bed right now. In fact, Mike's life is threatened every minute of every hour as a direct result of that little bastard who sailed away with his bravado!
So sad, people on the top rarely suffer consequences of their wrong doing. It doesn’t matter in which society or profession. In fact we live in a 2 tier system, people at the top won’t get punished, but instead get promoted.
Billy, has Mike seen this thread?
Reason 20,000 of why I was never a military aviator. This is something my dumb ass would have done.
Wow! I'm a 32-year retired USAF 0-6 who flew in the back seat of the F-4. I never heard this story explained so thoroughly. Thank you!!
The next meeting of the Joint Chiefs must have been entertaining for the Marine and Army generals.
Ward, I can't thank you enough for this video. I was an E5 on the Sara at the time and I remember this episode well. I remember the ship's captain broadcasting to the crew what happened and putting a humorous spin on how "we invited 2 of our Air Force colleagues to join us" and that in the spirit of hospitality "we dressed them in Navy uniforms." Admiral Boorda was the best officer I ever served under. He used to do things "just to see what the Russians would do" that I never knew any other office to do. He was a great loss to the Navy and our country. I just heard that his XO recently passed away. He ripped me a new one, but I deserved it.
Sir,
I was the Enlisted CIC supervisor on duty on the Saratoga when this incident occured. They tried hard to shift the blame to my AIC. But ultimately recorded tapes proved otherwise. I remember the two Air Force officers passing through CIC afterwards. I also had the honor of working for Admiral Boorda during workups prior to the cruise. Thanks for presenting this video.
Respectfully,
OS1(SW) G Brown USN Ret.
The uploads from Ward at this point are guaranteed classics. :)
"Jesus, they want me to shoot him?"
"Yeah, shoot him..." - Greatest troll on the FNG ever.
Yep, I agree, his RIO has some responsibility in the event and should've picked up that 'Dorsey's' response was one of confusion.
Deskpop!
@@derekhalford187 they put him in a no-win situation and then they burned him for the rest of his career to cover their ass.
@@Sugarsail1 Obviously I wasn't there at the hearing or witnessed the incident first hand, but 'Dorsey' has to take responsibility for his actions, considering the RF-4 Phantom did refuel alongside of him before the exercise and the word simulation was used. You suggest it was a no-win situation, but I disagree and thought the Navy was leniant as he kept his wings and was able to remuster to the intelligence wing instead of being told to walk the plank. They also payed for his law degree. Not a bad deal as far as I'm concerned.
At that point in the story I thought it was a live fire exercise. I thought maybe it was a remote target or something.
Wow! Great to hear the whole story. I was at Aviano in high school when this happened, with the Civil Air Patrol cadet corps. We were waiting for this RF-4 to land because it had been arranged for us to meet the pilots, then get a tour of the film being taken out of cameras and then shown the photographic processing. We were going to get to see the pictures of the aircraft carrier. Obviously the plane never came back so the tour was canceled.
Am I the only one who missed how the freaking frick a US pilot is even able to, let alone chooses to.. shoot down another US pilot?! I mean WTF? Were they employing ndow lickers back then?
I’d love to know what Dutch said to Dorsey after he fired the sidewinder
An Old F-4 RIO (VF-96), Ward, prior to ADM Dorsey becoming 3rd Fleet, he was CO of VF-21 (Freelancers) flying F-4J with a new visual target acquisition system. During VF-21’s work-up, prior to cruise on Ranger, the MO with a nugget RIO shot down an HS-3 killing all on board during a air show practice. The brief was to cross the wake of the ship and shoot a Sidewinder at flares dropped by an A-7 while an E-2C with the hello passed on the starboard side. The nugget RIO thought he locked on the flares. The senior pilot had a “growl” while looking at the flares through the new system and shot the AIM-9 prior to crossing the wake as briefed. I knew the MO and RIO from VF-121. ADM Dorsey did not have a similar mishap like his son. Just adding a few facts to your presentation.
I went through VF-101 when Yank was a LCDR and instructor pilot. Senior officers stood when Yank walked into a room. Amazed me.
Pilot call sign "China?"
@@zlindriver7632 Close - last name Newlin, called him "New-Lin Chinese Fighter Pilot".
You are close; the RIO locked up the helo and the pilot was unfamiliar (also some lack of crew coordination) with the new SEAM functionality, with the nose on the flares and a tone, the pilot thought the Sidewinder was looking at the flares, but it had slewed to the helo. Very sad.
Wow, crazy story. But the TOMCAT pilot did see the RF-4 on the tanker re-fueling....and his dad shot down a friendly, WILD. Great job explaining this HUGE mishap. 👍👍👍👍
WAIT! HIS DAD ALSO was responsible for a blue on blue!??? I missed that some how. fack.
@@trumanhw The coconut don't fall far from the tree.
@@trumanhw apparently, two
btwn them an rf4 f4 and sh3
Really like your stories. I was an AQ with VA-52. After I got out of the Navy I got a degree in electronics and worked for Grumman Aerospace until they were bought out by Northrop. I worked on the A6, EA6-B and the F14. I worked R&D on a bunch of unnamed projects. It was a great experience at China Lake and Pt Mugu.
I was in Fire Controlman A School when the Saratoga shot a Turkish DD with a RIM-7 Sea Sparrow. Lots of similarities with discrepancies in terminology with the watch crew and CIC, the guys at the launcher "armed and tuned" the birds which told them it was a live fire. When I got to the Constellation a few months after this, it took an act of God to get the arming plugs to the launcher.
“Sorry our guys shot you down, here have a mug and some patches!”.
And ice cream.
Navy gift basket
Ice cream and a hat from the squadron that tried to kill you.
..."Air Force guys don't have access to ice cream at their base..." An oddly phrased or ignorant statement
@@mortyp473"Free ice cream! All is forgiven, we're good here." I can't believe the F-4 pilot and RIO didn't stalk this dude and kick the shit out of him.
That is absolutely bonkers. My Dad (A-4 pilot off Midway & Intrepid in Vietnam) told me some amazing stories, but nothing as jaw-droppingly insane as this. I wish he was still here so I could share your channel & this story with him.
It seems insane to me that they would do a simulation like that carrying live sidewinders. Kinda like pointing loaded guns around.
One of the few channels I could listen to all day. Your delivery and context is just right for the compelling subjects you choose to tell us about. I hope you get the following you deserve for all your work. Thank you for making these events known to us.
Riveting story, well-told.
Probably a tad insensitive to suggest that RF4 was nailed rather than rivetted?
Kudos 'though - an almost incredible tale.
One thing to take away & its classic - Disaters typically have a whole lot of cumulative errors.
Came here to say the same thing.
@@babboon5764 you funny…. “Rivetted”
Nice one.
1. As an Air Force guy for 20 years, we always had ice cream.
2. As an Air Force Fire Control Officer in AC-130U's, we always made sure the guns were empty during training mission "dry fire" exercises.
3. As an Air Force guy wearing Navigator wings, we had some dumb pilots, but I never knew one to actually shoot another US aircraft.
Having the guns empty surely helped on item 3...
Yeah, I thought that Mooch's comment about the Air Force not having ice cream was tongue-in-cheek, but he said it in such a dry manner.
Hilarious
As an Air Force guy, I second everything you said except the #3...I wear Officer Air Crew Wings. Yet everyone I've flown with also seemed to be smarter than a 9th grader...unlike "Horsey Jack Ass Dorsey".
Not just ice cream, golf courses too.
I could definitely listen to you tell stories all day. The swagger in your voice. The way you include a lot of detail but not in a way that to just drag the topic on. Very well spoken. Can’t wait to watch more.
Hi Ward. Congratulations on busting 100k subscribers from an Aussie GA pilot who can only dream of climbing in a fast jet. Thank you for the fascinating background insights into life in the cockpit and aboard carriers, delivered impeccably without bluster or ego, you are a great ambassador for your country and your service. I look forward to your future posts
I would imagine that communication procedures for training missions like this were tightened up a bit after this event.
I've heard this incident directly led to the practice of *always* explicitly announcing, "EXERCISE TRANSMISSION" before and after tactical radio calls.
They did have the requirement to say "exercise" or use an alternate word prior to engaging live fire. The leadership on the boat failed to enforce this. Just like they did in 1992 against the Turkish navy maviboncuk.blogspot.com/2016/03/uss-saratoga-cv-60-s-incident-with-tcg.html
They did have the requirement to say "exercise" or use an alternate word prior to engaging live fire. The leadership on the boat failed to enforce this. Just like they did in 1992 against the Turkish navy maviboncuk.blogspot.com/2016/03/uss-saratoga-cv-60-s-incident-with-tcg.html
@@MrRipper1956 Thanks! That certainly makes sense. So this was a screw up at multiple levels.
Wow. Great story. As a former Army grunt it took me back to finding live rounds in a mag of a new private as we were stepping off for a MOUT training mission. He ended up in jail as it was determined he was intending to shoot some guys up. Goes to show why we go thru all the checks and rechecks.
During the final exercise of my conscript training, we recived news that a conscript from another regiment had comitted suicide by removing the desintegrator cap from the muzzle and eating a hollow wood bullet blank from his FNC service rifle...
And all the 8000 conscripts of that year, including that poor guy, had less than five weeks left to graduation and return to the civilian life of a normal 19-20yo.
@@SonsOfLorgar He had issues of some kind prior to induction. Hate to hear of events like that but unfortunately they happen. Makes you wonder what was dragging his mind down so much that 5 weeks more was not attainable. Sad for him and even worse for the poor parents.
Private Pyle?
@@robertthomas5906 didn't get that far but yeah he was a strange cat that shouldn't have made it thru basic.
@@daneaxe6465 some guys would have committed suicide regardless of service status. What a waste.
Wow, I hadn't heard the details of this before. I vaguely recall the incident. Certainly a mess of a situation. It was clear there was confusion in the cockpit if Dorsey asked his RIO for confirmation that they were receiving instructions to shoot the RF-4C. Thanks for the terrific detailed explanation of the event, board process, and the other key players.
This has become one of my new favorite channels. My job has me now in close proximity to naval aviators and their Super Hornet. The stories I hear from them have me absolutely fascinated with what Navy aviators go through and have gone through. Thanks for these great stories!
My experience with *Naval Aviators* is limited to four years, but I noticed a few things about their demeanor in that brief time period:
- They have zero tolerance for incompetence.
- They don't make many mistakes if any.
- They are deadly serious when near or onboard their aircraft.
- They're focused.
- They're modest about their skills.
- They party hard when on leave.
- They're great pilots.
- They're fiercely independent.
- They always want to fly, even while they're flying!
- They always follow procedure; always by-the-book.
The fact that this naval aviator shot down one of his own after surviving the most rigorous selection processes in aviation leaves me stunned. I'm forced to agree with the air force pilot and his decision to intercede with respect to the promotion to admiral. This fiasco was *completely avoidable* with absolute certitude.
It sounds to me Dorsey was deadly serious and when he was told "weapons red and free", he followed the procedure by the book.
All organizations make allowances for "legacies".
it's so myopic, and honestly just unfair, to pin the blame on Dorsey. this was a multi-tiered systemic failure. the sequence of communications lead Dorsey, by implication, into believing he was being sent into a real combat situation. first we have the (seemingly abrupt / last minute) change to the encrypted frequency and the change in tasking, with no explicit mention of it still being part of the training exercise. i feel this would make most people start to wonder if the last minute change was a result of a real-world issue. then we have the callout of "weapons red and free". side note - why would one of the most high-risk callouts (hey, blow that guy up with a missile) be identical between training and real-world? to say nothing of Dorsey previously being FAILED for not obeying that exact same "weapons red and free" call. systemic pressure is being mounted on Dorsey - he doesn't know what's going on for sure, but all indications point to this being real, and there's no room for him to second guess - hell, he got failed for second guessing before. then - "go ahead, shoot him." the final point where this might have been saved was "simulated F-2 / it didn't go". but at that point, you have Dorsey thinking he's in a life or death situation, and Dutch is just starting to piece together what Dorsey means by "it didn't go".
this is really just a hugely unfortunate situation but i think there is a broader takeaway of how much of this was caused by miscommunication and misleading / insufficient information.
@@999a0s May I suggest that you re-watch this episode? Your interpretations of events are not entirely accurate.
@@999a0s Dorsey saw the RF-4C being refueled from a USAF tanker and then shot it down. He should have been thrown out of the Navy. Captains of warships are court marshalled for less than what Dorsey did.
"It wasn't for the reson he wanted." Great analysis and goes to show that the "good ole boys club" was well and thriving at that time. It helps to have a dad who was an admiral. Where have we heard that story before?
Its the same with West Point Country Club.
It always has been and it always will be, as long as there is power there is corruption.
@Otis Kaboom Just one of many. Needs fixin'.
It's great to have a dad around who can Raise Cain when needed.
came here from facebook because the footage came across my feed, which led me to search the comments for more info on this incident. first time actually liking subscribing and sharing when someone has said to do so in one of their videos. excellent video and excellent storytelling, thank you sir.
THIS STORY WAS CRAZY!
GLAD THEY LIVED.!!!
Ward, your explanation of this "incident" was very thorough and concise. Thanks and be safe!
As an ex-bubblehead, I love hearing your stories. They always somehow give me a bit of nostalgia for my time on submarines. Different areas completely, but the same thread running through them all. Excellent work.
These stories remind me of ones my older relatives and some of their friends told us kids of their time In the US Navy during WW II. Such an amazing branch and personnel.
He sounds like a Marine officer I served with. He was a son of a Marine General. No matter how bad he’d screw up. It was his men’s fault. He came to us a overconfident pain in the rear. He really thought he was Gods gift to the Marine Corps.
We had a West Point 2LT assigned to our cavalry unit during Desert Storm. He openly opined that the enlisted men should be sent into battle without ammunition. The squadron Master Gunner informed the lieutenant that we would eventually find ammo, and that said ammo might be utilized in a manner that the lieutenant would find unfavorable.
A$$hats - they're everywhere...
Man I’m surprised narcissists can even get through boot camp let alone into the actual service, that’s kinda scary those people are really dangerous without having weapons
If that guy served in the field during the Vietnam War, he would have been one of those officers that you heard about being fragged by his own men.
@@Myname-il9vd Officers don't go through boot camp. When I was commissioned as an ensign I went straight from my NROTC unit to SWOS and then on to my ship. Which is better than it was before SWOS was started in the mid-70's when blackshoes went straight from commissioning to the fleet without any sort of training. Compare that to, I dunno, is it a couple of years of training for aviators? To even it up, maybe they could take aviators right out of the Academy or ROTC or whatever and send them straight to a squadron - "Don't worry, guys, you'll figure it out as you go...". Yeah...no. :-)
Wow. His callsign should have just been "ND" ( Negligent Discharge). Seems his father had an ND twice 🤦♂️
I would have offered those USAF boys a free punch and apologised profusely.
The most problematic ND being the one which resulted in Mr Smoke.
I like that Ward is providing some background information. Initially the case looks like a "clear mistake, should not have happened".
But with some context (like the down in the simulator exercise) this changes a little bit. Probably still a major pilot mistake since he met the F-4 during the refueling and followed it for 15 minutes. But there have seemed to be some miscommunication / misunderstandings.
Or BA. Bad Aviator or Botched Abortion.
@@markcoveryourassets You need to understand that his RIO fully understood the mission. The only person who didn't was the pilot who could have at anytime asked for clarification. Also Tankers don't just refill anybody who rocks up. This pilot basically just switched his brain to auto pilot and ignored everything else. Then after realising his near fatal mistake lacked the character to even apologise for nearly killing his colleagues.
@@markcoveryourassets Tankers only give gas to those whom have pre-clearance, or an assigned emergency. Gas ain't free & someone's squadron budget is paying. Dorsey knew that. Watched him tank. And still somehow got that mindset.
I'm a retired USAF Master Sergeant, missile and bomber maintainer. This was a tragedy that could have been so much worse. You told it very well. I could picture it as you described it. You held my attention. Well done. For what it's worth, I thought the outcome was appropriate for the naval aviator.
Gidday Mate from Melbourne, Australia !
This is my second watch of one of your videos ( last one was about the pilot that rode the lightning.)
Both were concise and highly educational and
on point .
Thanks mate , I shall definitely be interested in seeing more .
Thanks for your efforts and time to share important real world situations in a fashion that is highly sober and factual ,very refreshing in comparison with some of the clowns and gooses that are over the top,biased ,ego driven and essentially useless because of that .
Keep up the good work Mate .
He really deserved the call-sign, "Phantom".
"trigger"...LOL
@@magnuspym I'd be more blunt with "Double Blue"...
Going by what he did afterward, playing the system, I'd call him "Playah."
@@pastaspaghettimonster1893 Blue Falcon?
smoke blue
Former USAF pilot here: I would have liked to meet Dorsey myself. I would have loved to have chatted with the board on this one; glad the Air Force guys survived. He didn’t deserve to keep his wings; of course he’s a lawyer now.
I’m 100% with Mike Ross. There is no way Dorsey should be a flag officer. “Smoke” is not a compliment. Thanks Ward.
Being the son of an admiral or general should be an automatic disqualifier at max....or a rank limit of E-3.
Fantastic!!!!! Read Punks Wing a few years back and now a regular listener to your channel. please keep it coming. Your great!
Your videos are very well presented and easy to understand for general civilians. I like that all your photos are accurate to the aircraft when talking about each one unlike alot of other videos that just show random aircraft
Oh, did anyone mention the hot missile on station 1? Since you said there was a motor failure, it had to have been inspected. But landing on the ship without notification of a hung munition seems bad enough for demotion in my book.
That would have been something if he also dropped that on the deck.
Does the RIO not bare some responsibility for not asking, "HEY, that missile hung but wtf are you doing !?"
Or is the lingo just ambiguous enough ... ?
Or are missiles configured to mimic motor failures without knowing it was an actual physical failure (simulated) ..?
(now that I say that I think I recall Ward mentioning the symbology is very similar).
(please please know -- I am NOT blame shifting for this guy -- just sincerely asking how much blame there is to go around)
@@trumanhw Time to process.
The formula is "What did you know?, When did you know it? What did you do about it?"
RIO could not have processed and responded in a manner to prevent Dorsey from toggling station 1 to 8 and send it. You are talking about 1.5 seconds. Dorsey was already committed. And would have never been able to stop at the RIO's "Knock it off!"
When you are operating at the speed of war, (and Dorsey was, or his ball was off center) and calling him back was going to take more time than was available.
The RIO was not in that mindset, and if he figured it out, he did so too late to make a difference calling out from his reality to Dorsey's reality.
A textbook shit show.
@Captain Chaos You can’t jettison a hung Aim 9 first of all. The real question is why were they flying with lives on a training mission?
The first missle may have been an inert used for training.
I could listen to stories like this for hours... What an excellent story teller!
Wow! What superb narration Mooch!
How have I just found this channel??? I could listen to Ward all day!! Awesome vids and great stories!
Excellent summary. I was a WSO in the 38 TRS which the RF-4C was assigned to and have heard bits and pieces about the shoot down. I knew both the Pilot and WSO and was stationed with them in other squadrons. Both outstanding aviators! I still can’t believe what was going through Dorsey’s head. Dutch sounds like a great RIO.
I flew with Mike when we were both in the 12 TRS at Bergstrom. Then he went to Zwei in the 38th and I went to the 15TRS at Kadena. Later deployed to Zwei during Salty Bee when I was with the 91st TRS. We heard about the incident and could not believe that the Navy had shot down one of ours. It was only later that I learned about Mike's multiple surgeries and 100% disability due to this hotshot's negligence. And the fact that he almost made Admiral in the Naval Reserve is maddening! Hope Mike is doing better now. Phantoms Phorever!
So the rookie pilot has his finger on the trigger, with a hot sidewinder ready to deploy, with a senior instructor sitting behind him telling him to "shoot" because the target is "Red and Free"? This whole situation seems like a recipe for disaster.... I understand that there is training protocol but did the instructor actually explain to him how to demonstrate pulling the trigger without pulling the trigger, especially when the plane is loaded to the nines?? I think the instructor Dutch should have been partially responsible for failing to manage the situation.. I'm not a pilot just an average guy, seems like Dorsey would subconsciously just pull the trigger with Dutch telling him to "shoot."
@@johnfritz8571 You missed a great tour by not being stationed at Zwei.
@@jcheck6 So I've been told! Okinawa and the Pacific Rim were fun as hell though!
@@johnfritz8571 Glad it worked out for you John. I was sweating it while in RTU at Shaw.
That must have set back Navy/Air Force relations a bit for quite a while, I think 😁
I'm gonna say the fact that the Blue Angels and the Thunderbirds are doing shows together now is a sign that those wounds have hopefully fully healed.
@@whitephoenix4230 Maybe that's the reason they don't fly with a load out lol
You’re absolutely right! Navy/AF joint exercises were common, but after this shootdown, AF demanded that all joint exercises in the Med would carry exercise (inert) weapons. Navy would not agree to that as forward-deployed carriers and their airwings are considered “tip-of-the spear” in real-world. Sooo, AF wouldn’t exercise with Navy in the Med for a number of years.
@@v1rot81 One can hardly blame them.
lol
Excellent breakdown of this event. Your articulation is superb.
Thoroughly enjoying this channel. Awesome content presented by a great storyteller!
Dorsey was my reenlistment officer when I was with VF-14. I wasn’t aware that he was “that pilot” until just after the ceremony.
How many F-14 and F-14 trained pilots are there ... right..?
But this is amazing that multiple people here know this guy.
(even more amazing to me that anyone allowed him the anonymity to live this down).
Father and son both had accidental shoot downs? That's crazy. Great story.
Must be genetic.
And son, that's my story. So, if you study hard and learn to shoot straight, maybe someday you can shoot down an Airforce plane too!
An incredible story - thanks for sharing Ward
Great story and really, it's somewhat surprising such things aren't more common. Playing "cops and robbers" with real weapons and live ammo in your hands always has this risk. When I was a Jarhead, the higher-ups had the sense not to give us live smallarms ammo but that didn't stop actual bloodshed in hand-to-hand when the "aggressor" and the "blue" sides made contact in the wastelands of some hellish training area in the middle of the night. There was unit pride at stake and as life for all participants had generally been miserable for days during the exercise, everybody wanted to hurt somebody.
Awesome Work! I love these types of Videos on Tomcat Stories.
Thumbs up on your 5x5 explanation on actual events and your Naval career !
Fascinating! Thanks for the video.
Very honest rendering of what happened very much appreciated thank you sir!
Great Story, Unbelievable, but well told and enjoyed it. Love the channel , keep it up!!
Hey Ward! Please tell all the F-4 stories you have (even though I know you RIO’d in Tomcats). My grandfather was a F-4 pilot / GIB in Nam. He died in Laos with his frontseater at night bombing trucks on the trail. They took a lucky hit to the canopy during roll in.
RIP to both
:-(
Americans really do NOT realize the perilous duty pilots have.
I bet the ratio of KIA / MIA & purple hearts is as high as special ops ...
The anti-aircraft fire the NVA could put up was more intense than anything the Germans had in WWII. They had many special AA trucks and all the soldiers would fire small arms at attackers. Army infantry 1968.
@@stephenpowstinger733 Hi Stephen. You are correct. The gunners would move positions all the time, especially on the Trail. When my grandfather was rolling in, the airborne FAC observed two 37mm positions open fire. Talk about a lucky shot.
@@jett2753 I'm very sorry you never got to meet your grandfather Jett.
Fascinating story Ward. Not sure how your video popped up in my feed but glad it did. I listened to every word and have now subscribed.
Wow! What a story. Thank you for sharing
Nice to know what really happened to, and WHY the RF that got shot down by the navy pilot during a “training mission”. I worked on that plane while I was posted to the 26th TRW at Zweibrücken during the ‘70’s as a sensor systems, electro-optical maintenance tech. Sunny Zwei, gone, but not forgotten.
I was at SP 85-91.. Stayed over here... ZW is a big clothing outlet now... greetings from the Mosel Valley
The thing about Boorda. When you said it in my mind I was like "I know that name". I looked up his wiki, and now I know why. It was a VERY big deal when it happened. I joined in 97, a year after he killed himself and they were STILL talking about it often. The reason I just didn't know this, was because I actually had met one of the CNOs while he was doing a command visit, and at first I thought it was Boorda (obviously not, it was 20+ years ago so forgive my memory). The CNO I met was Vern Clark.
Just discovered your channel and really enjoy them. My dad was an F-4 pilot and did 3 tours of Vietnam. I followed somewhat in his footsteps and worked avionics for the F-15 Eagle while at Luke. Keep up the great work.
Excellent description of the events thank you
Wonderful Ward, have a wonderful weekend.......cheers, PB
The content is on another level this week, Mooch. 100K subscribers for sure.
Great video Mooch !! Virtual Salute !
Brilliant and thorough recount of all the facts of this unbelievable story. Thank you!
15:00 Wait, they sent someone so stupid that he thought he should actually shoot at another friendly airplane in an exercise to intelligence?
Captain Mancuso was right.
Whole chunks of this seem to have bypassed you more than they did Mr Smoke
*He* thought it *wasn't* friendly ........ He assumed the RF-4 was stolen. He had been primed to expect that.
Too bad he didn't have the gumption to question that the moment he was told he had clearance to shoot not clearance for a simulated shoot.
But that's covered too.
@@babboon5764 Chunks of this seem to have bypassed you too. Example: in the ENTIRE 15 MINUTES the pilot and his backseater were following the F4 AFTER SEEING IT RE-FUEL FROM A FRIENDLY TANKER they never thought to have a conversation along the lines of: "You do know this is a simulation, right?" Backseaters and pilots CAN communicate between each other while inside the aircraft.... One other part I would point out(and in all fairness, this is Ward's version of it, I wasn't at the hearing...) dorsey HAD NO REMORSE!!!!! WTF?????? How the FUCK does anybody SHOOT A FRIENDLY and have NO REMORSE?????
Wait, he's either the "only fleet defender" ... defending against a US MADE JET -- with USAF INSIGNIA!
And likely the most calm RIO in history ... Though, it [is] odd the RIO never said:
"Can we stop counting on defective missiles to not shoot members of the US armed services !???"
@@radioactive9861 Nope
I covered all that in other responses - you can check the time stamps.
I was trying to keep it simple for Eric who seemed to be struggling to grasp the finer points.
@@babboon5764 My mistake.
Smoke followed a friendly F-4 that was refueling with a friendly tanker for 15 minutes towards his carrier and thought the whole time the F-4 was a bad guy without asking any questions? Sounds like some bullshit to me.
Ward, your the king of story telling. Thanks again. I never heard of the this incident.
Low pressure in the cranial actuator.....bad news when you're flying a weapon.
@@Turboy65 good one made laugh
There could have been a hostage involved. He didn't have the context because they didn't tell him. What do you do in the military if they don't give you the context? Follow orders. They told him new mission go shoot this down. And he did. They should have reiterated that it was still a training excersice after changing the mission.
Also the aircraft should have had a big red *ARMED* indicator for the backseat.
All valid points.
Thank you Mr. Ward for another great video. I learn so much about Naval Aviation watching your channel.
Yes sir, you are an awesome teller of stories from the Navy (GREATEST SERVICE!!! We do it all!!)
The F-4 Phantom is my favorite jet. It's had an interesting record.
I know a few retired F-4 pilots and the stories they tell are incredible. The books the retired Phantom drivers write are mind-blowing.
These are my 3 favorite aviation books:
- Topgun by Dan Pederson
- Scream of Eagles by Robert Wilcox
- Great Fighter Jets of the Galaxy 1 by Tim Gibson
Scream of eagles very good book.
Tim Dorsey and his family lived down the street from me for many years. I knew he was a former Tomcat guy, but I didn't know he was infamous. Turns out he was legal consul for some of the biggest predatory lenders in Hampton Roads. After seeing this video, that no longer surprises me.
Well researched, well told, well illustrated. Very polished production, as usual, and very interesting content, as usual.
I’m (surprisingly) new to this channel, confiding I’m a pilot and very heavy into military aviation, but god damn am I glad I found this channel.
Watched about 10 videos in succession. Thank you for sharing your information & experience sir, it’s absolutely invaluable!
I remember this…I was in the Army stationed near Zweibrücken AB where this RF4 was out of at the time…
AJ before Zweibrucken that a/c was based at Bergstrom AFB, TX. I was based at Zwei in the '70's.