Beautiful ending. I've been in one of the worst places of my life with questioning myself recently, and you genuinely helped me at the end of this video. Thank you
"I'm the guy who doesn't use stimpacks in Starcraft 2. Why? Because I know what they do to marines, they're horrible!" You know you're an amazing person, right?
Same here. Calming tone and adequate pacing with enthusiasm for the given work (or for the awful work -- confused, disgusted anger) without coming across as a caffeine-overdosing sack of belligerence and bad jokes. There's nothing worse than having some uber-popular wacky UA-camr talking about social gamer clique gossip and the same few corporate developers with nothing of substance if you take the time to actually listen to what's being said. The Runner of Lore, LoreRunner, is the Aun Tumerok recommended content creator and honorary visiting Sutah of the Aun Collective.
Just wanted to say, Lore, that this video really made my day. Was having a bad day, and decided to rewatch this, and by the end, I was tearing up right along with you. You always know how to see the hope in things.
Three years into this video's future, it would be 2019. And three years after that, the idea of a three year rewind suddenly sounds a lot more appealing than it did back when Lore recorded this.
I was reading through some programming documents while listening during work and that ending made me suddenly tear up, darn you lol. I know this is one of your older videos but Undertale has been this new obsession for me that does one thing that I love about fiction: teach you things about yourself.
If there is one thing, that I can say about the Ruminations, Loreruns and all the other stuff Arch does.... it's the emotion. Even though this IS your job, you Arch always show love and care for everything you do. I myself really care for this game as well... not as much, unfortunatelly. But I will not lie... seeing you tear up made me shed a tear as well (I am too emotional). Awesome Rumination, one of the best. Keep up the great work :)
Beautiful ending imo - Everything you said is exactly right. In a way it reminds of what I once argued over with classmates - They said it was just amazing how I was good in subjects concerning language without doing much. I to this day argue against that - The fact that I was good at it without doing much isn't amazing at all, it's just that I, per pure chance, had the 'power' needed to get through the subject, but I never actually had to try. I have way more respect for people that didn't have a talent and put all of their work into studying and trying to get better while I only ever had to 'sit on my ass and do nothing' And yes, you're helping a lot of people with what 'little' power you have. Noone can change the whole world, but you can change the world around you as you go, and you're doing a great job at it!
I wouldn't agree with Chara laughing about poisoning their father just because they found it funny, it's a somewhat common occurrence through the game that laughter is used as a way of dealing with grief, most notably Mettaton before the tile maze puzzle, and as you said "they smile so they don't have to cry.". Also, when you kill Flowey, you're actually the one who, metaphorically, pulls the trigger. Chara intervenes multiple times, moving Frisk outside your control, but you don't start striking Flowey until you press the button. I recommend the Chara Theory video by "Judgement Boy", if that's okay, it shows a more sympathetic take on Chara. I NEVER thought of Flowey being a flower before being injected with determination, but it makes sense, since it would explain how he woke up in the garden, instead of the lab. Though, that gives a bit of fridge horror, does that happen to every monster who gets their dust put onto an object, a common practice according to Snowdin's Library? Or was it because he died with Chara's soul, his determination? I hope it's the latter... And man, only the hardest of SOULs don't cry about Undertale.
Aye, I linked it above as well in my comment. It's a wonderful theory. Too much evidence points to it being canon, so maybe not so much a theory haha..
Upon rewatching, I have one begrudging quibble with your rumination, and it's your second complaint, about 2 hours in. That you can't save Asriel. I'm fine with this. As much as I would love to save Asriel, it's far more affecting to me to have the one character that you can save, but only temporarily. You can bring him back to clarity. You can have him gain his redemption and save his people from their fate. You can have him express remorse for the horrible things he did. Yet in the end, his respite is temporary. Ultimately, he is doomed. I don't mind that there's a character that you can't save from his ultimate fate, save that it's the only character you can't save, and that the tragic antagonist is done well. In this case, the tragic antagonist is superb. Although it saddens me, the fact that fans have gone to every length to save him, including avoiding any hits and saving all of the dreams from the battle to try and use the good dreams to save him, the meme amongst fans that "You can't save him" holds such weight with those who love this game. Asriel is that one character. He can be redeemed. He can feel regret. He can be comforted. He cannot be rescued.
Ill be honest the first time I played I just went through like a normal rpg... UNTIL I got to Snowdin. I talked to everyone and I remember specifically a npc talking about how they hadn't seen their friend, one of the dog guards, in a while. It hit me like a brick that I'd been murdering these people's friends. I continued on until the end because I was filled with determination, but it broke my heart and I didn't kill another enemy the entire game. And I didn't realize Alphys was helping you until I watched your streams on here. I felt really dumb needless to say. This is one of my favorite games to introduce my friends to and watch them play just for the moments like those. The puzzles with Papyrus were incredible.
Dude, I LOVE how unafraid too be real and show your emotions you are on these videos! There are a lot of games and movies that get me right in the feels, and it's awesome knowing I'm not the only one. I love your videos, keep it up. 👍
I know this is bound to come up in the comments of this particular video, so I want to speak on a specific topic which is unrelated to the content of this rumination, but which will ultimately impact how people view it. I ask for your time for only a little while, if you will. I know that this game has plenty of haters, mostly due to certain parts of the fanbase, but I urge everyone, absolutely everyone, no matter who you might be, to place that aside and to just judge this game and this rumination on its own merits. It seems to me that, in relation to almost every work, hatred toward the work in question and hatred toward the fans of that work are conflated to a severe extent. Speaking as a fan of several works which have accrued reputations for having "cringeworthy" fanbases (Kingdom Hearts, Final Fantasy, Steven Universe, many Sonic the Hedgehog games, several different anime, and of course, this game, off the top of my head), I don't consider myself to necessarily be a part of those fanbases, at least when considering how they are seen by outsiders. I find quite a few things that certain fans do to be absolutely repulsive. That being said, I will not name examples of what these fans may have said or done to garner their reputations. That's not my place, nor my general behavior as a person. If you want to find that sort of thing, search for it yourself. Anyway, I'm sure anyone who knows of the aforementioned fanbases will understand the specific complaints leveled against each of them. However, do these sorts of people represent what the works themselves really are at their core, when you solely analyze the extreme behaviors found within? Personally, I don't believe so. I don't believe any specific fan or small group of fans represents a whole fanbase, let alone the work they love, nor should they be considered said representative. So please, if you have any doubts or pre-existing biases against this game because of certain fans, please set those aside, take two hours, and listen to some genuine thought and enthusiasm about a great game from someone who loves it enough to unashamedly admit that they were moved to tears. Thanks, guys.
This is my second time watching this, I just want to say that this is by far my favorite review of Undertale, if you can call it that. Not only that but your streams of the game was quite enjoyable as well. When all said and done, I really do think that you're one of the most underrated youtubers around
Wonderful ending to this rumination, in every sense of the word. I was following Undertale from it's inception, as I was an MSPA fan and had been following Toby Fox for some time. I think it's easy to glean a lot of the ideas and concepts Undertale was inspired by Homestuck. Note that it's not anywhere near plagiarism much like the Golbez parallel, Homestuck takes just as much from Earthbound as Undertale does from the two latters. The game is a streamlined amalgamation of all these ideas put together in such a way that invokes much more emotion and heart than probably could in any other medium or work, and though I never really connected to Undertale as much as the majority, I can still appreciate everything it did. Hell, this rumination is really what made me think about Undertale in more depth than even when I completed true pacifist myself. I remember just as Undertale launched, and the MSPA community was naturally the first to latch on, well, that's if you put aside the earthbound community maybe, though I think it's safe to say that they're not as alive and kicking as they once were, but I digress. Anyway, the response was pretty amazing, it was what many considered to be more of a 'Homestuck Game' than the official HS game could ever be, and though I don't want to keep making the homestuck parallel, the connection is too obvious and close to me to ignore, hell the game was developed partially in the HS author's basement. But still, it was clear the game was going to blow up, it hit all the keypoints that an indie game needed to make in order to make headway today. --And all of that with a meager kickstarter. Once again, though I may not put as much weight into Undertale as an experience, it's amazing how much traction it got and I'm glad for Toby, as well as all who got something out of the game.
Amazing rumination, Arch. Thank you so much for doing this. This is why I've been following you ever since Mass Effect 3 - the human element that you bring in your ruminations that is seldom found when it comes to discussing video games or fiction in general. Undertale is a very difficult game to talk about considering just how unique and complex it is but you did it justice.
Papyrus' "special attack of doom" could actually be the gaster blaster (if it weren't for that dog) - the same attack that Sans uses in genocide run, yep, deadly!
Well, here I am listening to this rumination again. It's as good as the rest of your ruminations, until the last 10 minutes. That's the part that makes multiple rewatches of a over 2 hour long video worth it. I stand by my other comment on the inability to save Asriel, but still. Thanks Arch. Wish I was wealthier, as I'd love to support this kind of content.
I literally never comment on UA-cam videos, but this one made me choke up multiple times, and outright cry at the end, and I wanted to thank you for that. It's not the first time, the tenth time, the hundredth time a video has done that for me, but it's the first time I couldn't forgive myself if I didn't express how grateful I was to you for this video. Thank you. So, so much. Thank you.
It's too bad that a lot of people hate this game because of the crazy fanbase it has. I've seen this happen to so many things I like. Something will come out that is genuinely good, well written, ect. Naturally, people become fans of this thing because it's good, and it gains traction and populatiry. But then after a while the fanbase grows too intense (not everyone in the fanbase, I'm talking about the loud vocal minority) and it gains a bad reputation online. Then outsiders see the crazy fanbase and start hating on the work because of its loud and obnoxious fans. This is pretty much the situation with Undertale. (Or it was, as the loud fanbase has thankfully calmed down in the past few months.) Undertale is an amazing game that is absolutely worth your time. Don't be deterred because of the fanbase or what you've heard about it. It's really too bad that fanbases can completely ruin the reputation of something good. Even if you don't want to play the game, I do recommend watching Arch's playthrough on this channel.
its moments like the end of this that make me so fucking glad that i subscribed to both of your channels. that was real. and i love you for that. thank you, and this game.
What you had to say in your big point at the end actually helped me have a breakthrough in a story I'm writing. I think your passion in explaining that message helped me come up with a beautiful ending that ties all the themes together (don't worry I'm not just ripping off Undertale). Whether or not I'll like the idea tomorrow is anyone's guess but still, thank you. -Epsilon, as occasionally found in the chat.
That ending though... ;( Beautiful man... Beautifully said.. I honestly didn't expected that and I'm freakin' glad that I've stumbled on this video at 2 am and finished it... Cheers man!
One of the messages of Undertale seems to be that being a completionist is bad for your own enjoyment. If you use your power to reset to do everything there possibly is to do, you end up becoming emotionally detached from the world and the characters which once enamoured you. Everything becomes a hollow set of statistics. (P.S. Undertale made me cry too.)
Aw dude, this is really nice. If I could turn back time and do anything, I would play this game blind. I watched a playthrough first because I underestimated it- its still my favourite game but I took that away from myself. Honestly it's an amazing emotional experience and I'm glad you had so much cool stuff to say about it
Wow I wasn't expecting that. Those last words. OMG. It's biting because it's so hard to "be nice" when you get taken advantage of. And it's really hard because you end up embittered after a long succession of betrayals and deceptions, that you just don't want to do anything anymore. But anyway, still, I don't think I have any real friends, so I don't know what I'm doing wrong. This just gave me so much to think about, and it was just a little $10 game.
The most insightful thing I've heard about Alphys' personality was how she lied to you because then you would have a reason to hate her. The idea of someone not liking you because they have a reason to is much less scary than the option that they don't like you because it's you.
1:36:02 - This was kinda hinted at, way back in the Ruins. "* (I have some advice for you about battling monsters.) * (If you ACT a certain way or FIGHT until you almost defeat them...) * (They might not want to battle you anymore.)" Granted, this applies the random fights as well, but it's less practical in those cases. This tactic also works on Papyrus too. But in Asgore's case, it's _required_ to spare him. Unrelated Aside: The Ruins even foreshadows the fact that there are 3 "paths" through the game, as soon as you reach the 1st puzzle room. With the sign in the room saying: * Only the fearless may proceed. * Brave ones, foolish ones. * Both walk not the middle road. Then in the next room there's a sign in the corner that says: * Stay on the path. Crazy how much of a "tutorial" the Ruins actually were, in the grand scheme of things.
Chris Hasting's fantastic comic series The Unbelievable Gwenpool is the best example of a "someone thinking they're playing GTA but it is actually real" I've seen.
Great analysis. You really captured the motifs and theme of Undertale quite well. There is one aspect that I wanna bring up which you only briefly mentioned in you analysis that is the narrator theory. Because through out the video you described Chara as this evil and malevoelnt force which quite understandable given what little direct information we have about the character but there are a lot of subtle hints that hint at a much deeper and tragic story behind Chara, one that actually fits the narrative of Undertale way better than "this character is evil and has no redeeming qualities". I would even go as far to say that Chara itself is the biggest "bait and switch" in the whole game just because it's both blatantly stated in the game and yet done very subtley. There are so many aspects that contribute to this theory that listing it all here would probably take forever so I would suggest that you read this analysis which covers basicly the entire theory: determinators.tumblr.com/post/143284030397/greetings-uh-so-ive-been-working-on-this
I haven't played undertale yet. Been testing out a bunch of Undertale fan MMORPGS and figured I should get a refresher on the base game. Great content as always.
I think the ability to reach out is true power. You can t have that taken away until your choice is taken. Even then you can still choose if you take my meaning. This game is coffee for me but I understand why it hit so many people the right way. Keep up the good work.
I love this Rumination, I mostly like your take on the music motif and the your view on the meta of the game. I actually kind of believe that too that in that both Frisk and Chara stand in for two types of players. But mostly I love every main character has a theme like Sans is the game's mortal system and Papyrus is the game's heart.
That moment just before the ending, the XP and LoV. Had he given me the option then and there to start over, I would have taken it. I'm not sure another game has ever drawn out the type and measure of feelings I felt while playing that game.
Awesome rumination Arch. Undertale is such a great game. I've found more enjoyment out of it than any other game i've bought in years, and it's the only one in recent memory that has brought forth real emotion in me. I don't know if i'll ever play Undertale again. Maybe in a year or so.
Hey Arch, I was wondering where Undertale falls in your game ranking system. It is very clear from the way you talked about this game that it is in the art category for you, but does it crack the top 30? Personally, it takes the number 4 slot for me, and I was very happy to see such a long, thorough, and passionate analysis of it from you.
Alright. Alright. I've watched a few videos form your channel. And I know this video is older. Whatever. I don't even agree with many of your points (on other properties) though I still respect and appreciate the different viewpoint. Now I don't know if you care or not - doesn't really matter to me anyways - but this is the video that made me subscribe.
In your explanation of Asgore's fight, it reminded me of the quote by Toriel in her battle in which she says"Attack or run away!" In Undyne's fight you can't simply spare her, so therefore you must run away from her to succeed, but in Asgore's fight you cant run away either, making the only choice to attack.
I always wondered if Sans *was* Gaster, that Gaster was who he was but experimentation took a part of him and it created a "shade". He can use Gaster's weapons, he has an interest in physics, and he is in despair and apathy because he *knows* that time can be reset and nothing matters. So why not become someone else, a joker who loves his brother?
Not wanting to play the game ever again, I understand that exactly! So does anyone who has ever watched a little studio ghibli movie called "Grave of the Fireflies". A great if not phenomenal movie that you don't ever want to watch again. Not sure if the human heart can to multiple viewings of Grave of the Fireflies!?
Lore goes to 1 HP, then reaches out the hand. And then a rock accidentally falls on his head, and he dies for no reason, and the world has one less compassionate person in it. That's why it's better to have power... so things never have the chance to get that bad.
I hope Arch comments on Chara being the narrator in the pacifist run. Edit: Watch this video Arch, it explains a hell of a lot about the character of Chara. /watch?v=MYHXpdNqdGs
I accidentally killed Toriel the first time. I didn't know how to spare, so I followed the one Froggit's tip of "drop their HP down and they'll give up," so I beat her down pretty far. With low HP, I kept tabs that one more full strength attack would take her to the point that another full strength would kill her. I figured that's the point where she'd give up. So I do, and notice, she took double damage, which, of course killed her. I was traumatized, seeing her soul shatter and leaving me standing there, alone. I immediately resetted. She comments that I look like I've seen a ghost. I didn't care, she needed to be saved, so I spammed the Spare button.
I'm with Hobbit Movie Saruman on this one. Power doesn't make it easy; power makes things possible. Without power, you don't have options. If you survive, it was luck. It's not moral superiority, and teaching people that it is makes you a diseased liar.
Would love to see you play through the game LISA: The First, and hear your thoughts on it. It's very short, but it presents a lot of interesting stuff imo
Ukh. "I'd rather be whatever will make people like me". What a diseased Aesop. I honestly pity (mixed with contempt) anyone who sympathizes or resonates at all with that disgusting, horrific line. Nothing is more soulless and empty than a person who has no true self of their own, and will just tell whatever lie is best for manipulating you, with such skillful deception that they themself believe it.
Hey, Lorerunner? There's one question I have for you that wasn't mentioned in your *extensive* review that I really want to know your opinion on. How do you feel about Sans killing you if you spare him on a genocide run?
I don't really know how to answer that. I imagine no player on that route would accept that, and I imagine Chara's... essence would never accept that either. Sans himself said it best, "Yeah, you're the type of person who won't EVER be happy."
I think that sans lost all hope that you could reset and do a pacifist playthrough and released his anger at you, since he is at the very least partily aware that you won't ever truly die... At that point he sees you as the perfect punching bag, because you killed toriel, papyrus and almost everyone else, with the exception of some of the monsters from snowdin and some who were from hotland and the core (maybe even the residents of the capital/new home) and very likely alphys and monster kid... Sans knew that at least he could try to make you stop trying and reset time and maybe not kill everyone by making it look like he is unbeatable (well he is almost)...
A few things I want to talk about. While I agree that Papyrus is a teddy bear, there's something wrong with both him and Sans. Sure, we know a good bit about Sans but if you really loo at Papyrus's dialogue, we know almost nothing about him besides the fact he feels like he doesn't belong even though everyone is affected by his death. I completely disagree about Chara being a complete monster as there's too much evidence against it. Like the laughing is used as a coping mechanism which is shown when you face Snowdrake's mom and Toriel does it when she's dying. Or that the tone of the narration changes from punny and kind(Like Toriel(I'm serious, she talks like Toriel like Aseril talks like Asgore)) to cruel and matter of fact. But one for the biggest thing for me that proves Chara wasn't evil until being introduce to LOVE comes from the ending and this line that Chara says "At first, I was so confused. Our plan had failed, hadn't it? Why was I brought back to life? ... You. With your guidance. I realized the purpose of my reincarnation." It basically says everything that Chara learns from the Geno run was because Frisk thought them that. Also, there's a theory called "the delta ending" that says there might be a fourth ending coming soon. Mainly because the property is never fulfiled. I mean, Napstablook was never absorbed by Asreil and the reindeer monster plans on staying behind when the rest leave. And Gaster, well, he's fair game at this point but I don't think if we meet him he'll be a sane person. 666 is literally his number.
For me the only non-sequitir that rubs me the wrong way is Mushroom Dance in Temmie Village. It feels too out of place with it explaining its feelings and stuff, y'know?
Initially yes, it was just on PC. But at this point, it's on each of the major consoles. (Console-wise, I'd go with the Switch version myself. But any of them are worth playing.)
arch, I will disagree that chara is evil. laughing is how many people cope for a detailed view look at underlabs video on her but she in my view is clearly caring of all of the monsters and definitely loved the dreamer family, I would love to here anyones view of her if she is just influenced by you and wonts you to do something for a reason. please let me know what you all think of that
"Somebody has to stay here and take care of the flowers."
Beautiful ending. I've been in one of the worst places of my life with questioning myself recently, and you genuinely helped me at the end of this video. Thank you
"I'm the guy who doesn't use stimpacks in Starcraft 2. Why? Because I know what they do to marines, they're horrible!"
You know you're an amazing person, right?
see i dont because i hate on use abilities.
@@aredub1847 Stimpaks are not one use. Widow mines are the only limized use abilkties in og sc.
I go to sleep listing to Rumination's on the daily.
thought i was the only one
hell, I go on runs listening to his videos lol
Same lol, sometimes I don't want to play games or watch a video, so I just put on my headset and lie down.
me too !! I have a treadmill near my PC, at home - and put on his ruminations while doing a jog. Great stuff :-)
Same here. Calming tone and adequate pacing with enthusiasm for the given work (or for the awful work -- confused, disgusted anger) without coming across as a caffeine-overdosing sack of belligerence and bad jokes. There's nothing worse than having some uber-popular wacky UA-camr talking about social gamer clique gossip and the same few corporate developers with nothing of substance if you take the time to actually listen to what's being said.
The Runner of Lore, LoreRunner, is the Aun Tumerok recommended content creator and honorary visiting Sutah of the Aun Collective.
Just wanted to say, Lore, that this video really made my day. Was having a bad day, and decided to rewatch this, and by the end, I was tearing up right along with you. You always know how to see the hope in things.
Three years into this video's future, it would be 2019. And three years after that, the idea of a three year rewind suddenly sounds a lot more appealing than it did back when Lore recorded this.
I was reading through some programming documents while listening during work and that ending made me suddenly tear up, darn you lol. I know this is one of your older videos but Undertale has been this new obsession for me that does one thing that I love about fiction: teach you things about yourself.
This is easily my favorite of all your ruminations, and I absolutely teared up with you in your ending. Thank you for this wonderful analysis.
If there is one thing, that I can say about the Ruminations, Loreruns and all the other stuff Arch does.... it's the emotion. Even though this IS your job, you Arch always show love and care for everything you do. I myself really care for this game as well... not as much, unfortunatelly. But I will not lie... seeing you tear up made me shed a tear as well (I am too emotional).
Awesome Rumination, one of the best. Keep up the great work :)
THE GLOVES COMING OFF AT THE START
On my first playthrough, I only killed Toriel and a single vegetable. I still felt like a monster.
Damn it, Lorerunner, you got me going and then you quoted Asriel and fudge it, I need another tissue! T.T
Crensler That speech at the end really got me
Beautiful ending imo - Everything you said is exactly right. In a way it reminds of what I once argued over with classmates - They said it was just amazing how I was good in subjects concerning language without doing much. I to this day argue against that - The fact that I was good at it without doing much isn't amazing at all, it's just that I, per pure chance, had the 'power' needed to get through the subject, but I never actually had to try. I have way more respect for people that didn't have a talent and put all of their work into studying and trying to get better while I only ever had to 'sit on my ass and do nothing'
And yes, you're helping a lot of people with what 'little' power you have. Noone can change the whole world, but you can change the world around you as you go, and you're doing a great job at it!
I wouldn't agree with Chara laughing about poisoning their father just because they found it funny, it's a somewhat common occurrence through the game that laughter is used as a way of dealing with grief, most notably Mettaton before the tile maze puzzle, and as you said "they smile so they don't have to cry.". Also, when you kill Flowey, you're actually the one who, metaphorically, pulls the trigger. Chara intervenes multiple times, moving Frisk outside your control, but you don't start striking Flowey until you press the button.
I recommend the Chara Theory video by "Judgement Boy", if that's okay, it shows a more sympathetic take on Chara.
I NEVER thought of Flowey being a flower before being injected with determination, but it makes sense, since it would explain how he woke up in the garden, instead of the lab. Though, that gives a bit of fridge horror, does that happen to every monster who gets their dust put onto an object, a common practice according to Snowdin's Library? Or was it because he died with Chara's soul, his determination? I hope it's the latter...
And man, only the hardest of SOULs don't cry about Undertale.
Aye, I linked it above as well in my comment. It's a wonderful theory. Too much evidence points to it being canon, so maybe not so much a theory haha..
People just blame Chara so they don't have to feel like the bad guy.
Upon rewatching, I have one begrudging quibble with your rumination, and it's your second complaint, about 2 hours in. That you can't save Asriel.
I'm fine with this. As much as I would love to save Asriel, it's far more affecting to me to have the one character that you can save, but only temporarily. You can bring him back to clarity. You can have him gain his redemption and save his people from their fate. You can have him express remorse for the horrible things he did. Yet in the end, his respite is temporary. Ultimately, he is doomed. I don't mind that there's a character that you can't save from his ultimate fate, save that it's the only character you can't save, and that the tragic antagonist is done well. In this case, the tragic antagonist is superb. Although it saddens me, the fact that fans have gone to every length to save him, including avoiding any hits and saving all of the dreams from the battle to try and use the good dreams to save him, the meme amongst fans that "You can't save him" holds such weight with those who love this game. Asriel is that one character. He can be redeemed. He can feel regret. He can be comforted. He cannot be rescued.
Ill be honest the first time I played I just went through like a normal rpg... UNTIL I got to Snowdin. I talked to everyone and I remember specifically a npc talking about how they hadn't seen their friend, one of the dog guards, in a while. It hit me like a brick that I'd been murdering these people's friends. I continued on until the end because I was filled with determination, but it broke my heart and I didn't kill another enemy the entire game. And I didn't realize Alphys was helping you until I watched your streams on here. I felt really dumb needless to say. This is one of my favorite games to introduce my friends to and watch them play just for the moments like those. The puzzles with Papyrus were incredible.
Dude, I LOVE how unafraid too be real and show your emotions you are on these videos! There are a lot of games and movies that get me right in the feels, and it's awesome knowing I'm not the only one. I love your videos, keep it up. 👍
I'm soooooooo late to the party, but I'll say it anyway.
This was a wonderful journey. Both the stream and the rumination. Thank you.
I know this is bound to come up in the comments of this particular video, so I want to speak on a specific topic which is unrelated to the content of this rumination, but which will ultimately impact how people view it. I ask for your time for only a little while, if you will.
I know that this game has plenty of haters, mostly due to certain parts of the fanbase, but I urge everyone, absolutely everyone, no matter who you might be, to place that aside and to just judge this game and this rumination on its own merits. It seems to me that, in relation to almost every work, hatred toward the work in question and hatred toward the fans of that work are conflated to a severe extent. Speaking as a fan of several works which have accrued reputations for having "cringeworthy" fanbases (Kingdom Hearts, Final Fantasy, Steven Universe, many Sonic the Hedgehog games, several different anime, and of course, this game, off the top of my head), I don't consider myself to necessarily be a part of those fanbases, at least when considering how they are seen by outsiders. I find quite a few things that certain fans do to be absolutely repulsive. That being said, I will not name examples of what these fans may have said or done to garner their reputations. That's not my place, nor my general behavior as a person. If you want to find that sort of thing, search for it yourself.
Anyway, I'm sure anyone who knows of the aforementioned fanbases will understand the specific complaints leveled against each of them. However, do these sorts of people represent what the works themselves really are at their core, when you solely analyze the extreme behaviors found within? Personally, I don't believe so. I don't believe any specific fan or small group of fans represents a whole fanbase, let alone the work they love, nor should they be considered said representative. So please, if you have any doubts or pre-existing biases against this game because of certain fans, please set those aside, take two hours, and listen to some genuine thought and enthusiasm about a great game from someone who loves it enough to unashamedly admit that they were moved to tears.
Thanks, guys.
RE Gaster: there's one other thing in the game files regarding him, which is that the laser-shooting skulls Sans uses are called Gaster blasters.
This is my second time watching this, I just want to say that this is by far my favorite review of Undertale, if you can call it that. Not only that but your streams of the game was quite enjoyable as well. When all said and done, I really do think that you're one of the most underrated youtubers around
Wonderful ending to this rumination, in every sense of the word.
I was following Undertale from it's inception, as I was an MSPA fan and had been following Toby Fox for some time. I think it's easy to glean a lot of the ideas and concepts Undertale was inspired by Homestuck. Note that it's not anywhere near plagiarism much like the Golbez parallel, Homestuck takes just as much from Earthbound as Undertale does from the two latters. The game is a streamlined amalgamation of all these ideas put together in such a way that invokes much more emotion and heart than probably could in any other medium or work, and though I never really connected to Undertale as much as the majority, I can still appreciate everything it did. Hell, this rumination is really what made me think about Undertale in more depth than even when I completed true pacifist myself.
I remember just as Undertale launched, and the MSPA community was naturally the first to latch on, well, that's if you put aside the earthbound community maybe, though I think it's safe to say that they're not as alive and kicking as they once were, but I digress. Anyway, the response was pretty amazing, it was what many considered to be more of a 'Homestuck Game' than the official HS game could ever be, and though I don't want to keep making the homestuck parallel, the connection is too obvious and close to me to ignore, hell the game was developed partially in the HS author's basement. But still, it was clear the game was going to blow up, it hit all the keypoints that an indie game needed to make in order to make headway today. --And all of that with a meager kickstarter.
Once again, though I may not put as much weight into Undertale as an experience, it's amazing how much traction it got and I'm glad for Toby, as well as all who got something out of the game.
Amazing rumination, Arch. Thank you so much for doing this. This is why I've been following you ever since Mass Effect 3 - the human element that you bring in your ruminations that is seldom found when it comes to discussing video games or fiction in general. Undertale is a very difficult game to talk about considering just how unique and complex it is but you did it justice.
Papyrus' "special attack of doom" could actually be the gaster blaster (if it weren't for that dog) - the same attack that Sans uses in genocide run, yep, deadly!
Well, here I am listening to this rumination again. It's as good as the rest of your ruminations, until the last 10 minutes. That's the part that makes multiple rewatches of a over 2 hour long video worth it. I stand by my other comment on the inability to save Asriel, but still. Thanks Arch. Wish I was wealthier, as I'd love to support this kind of content.
thankyou, from all my heart, I love listening to all of your ruminations...
I literally never comment on UA-cam videos, but this one made me choke up multiple times, and outright cry at the end, and I wanted to thank you for that. It's not the first time, the tenth time, the hundredth time a video has done that for me, but it's the first time I couldn't forgive myself if I didn't express how grateful I was to you for this video.
Thank you. So, so much. Thank you.
It's too bad that a lot of people hate this game because of the crazy fanbase it has. I've seen this happen to so many things I like.
Something will come out that is genuinely good, well written, ect. Naturally, people become fans of this thing because it's good, and it gains traction and populatiry. But then after a while the fanbase grows too intense (not everyone in the fanbase, I'm talking about the loud vocal minority) and it gains a bad reputation online. Then outsiders see the crazy fanbase and start hating on the work because of its loud and obnoxious fans. This is pretty much the situation with Undertale. (Or it was, as the loud fanbase has thankfully calmed down in the past few months.)
Undertale is an amazing game that is absolutely worth your time. Don't be deterred because of the fanbase or what you've heard about it. It's really too bad that fanbases can completely ruin the reputation of something good. Even if you don't want to play the game, I do recommend watching Arch's playthrough on this channel.
its moments like the end of this that make me so fucking glad that i subscribed to both of your channels. that was real. and i love you for that. thank you, and this game.
Thank you for this. This feels like the videos that got me addicted to your channel. You do some of the best stuff on youtube
a very good rumination, you hit it all and hit it well, glad to have been there on your debut run and watch your experience live
What you had to say in your big point at the end actually helped me have a breakthrough in a story I'm writing. I think your passion in explaining that message helped me come up with a beautiful ending that ties all the themes together (don't worry I'm not just ripping off Undertale). Whether or not I'll like the idea tomorrow is anyone's guess but still, thank you.
-Epsilon, as occasionally found in the chat.
Wtf sudden feels at the end. Great rumination.
That ending though... ;( Beautiful man... Beautifully said.. I honestly didn't expected that and I'm freakin' glad that I've stumbled on this video at 2 am and finished it... Cheers man!
Dr. Bill Warner says that one should ONLY turn the other cheek from a position of strength.
This will be perfect to listen to on my long drive today.
Very touching arch
One of the messages of Undertale seems to be that being a completionist is bad for your own enjoyment. If you use your power to reset to do everything there possibly is to do, you end up becoming emotionally detached from the world and the characters which once enamoured you. Everything becomes a hollow set of statistics. (P.S. Undertale made me cry too.)
I dont find it fair to expect anyone to be emktionally invested in media.
Aw dude, this is really nice. If I could turn back time and do anything, I would play this game blind. I watched a playthrough first because I underestimated it- its still my favourite game but I took that away from myself. Honestly it's an amazing emotional experience and I'm glad you had so much cool stuff to say about it
Wow I wasn't expecting that. Those last words. OMG. It's biting because it's so hard to "be nice" when you get taken advantage of. And it's really hard because you end up embittered after a long succession of betrayals and deceptions, that you just don't want to do anything anymore. But anyway, still, I don't think I have any real friends, so I don't know what I'm doing wrong. This just gave me so much to think about, and it was just a little $10 game.
The most insightful thing I've heard about Alphys' personality was how she lied to you because then you would have a reason to hate her. The idea of someone not liking you because they have a reason to is much less scary than the option that they don't like you because it's you.
1:36:02 - This was kinda hinted at, way back in the Ruins.
"* (I have some advice for you about battling monsters.)
* (If you ACT a certain way or FIGHT until you almost defeat them...)
* (They might not want to battle you anymore.)"
Granted, this applies the random fights as well, but it's less practical in those cases.
This tactic also works on Papyrus too. But in Asgore's case, it's _required_ to spare him.
Unrelated Aside: The Ruins even foreshadows the fact that there are
3 "paths" through the game, as soon as you reach the 1st puzzle room.
With the sign in the room saying:
* Only the fearless may proceed.
* Brave ones, foolish ones.
* Both walk not the middle road.
Then in the next room there's a sign in the corner that says:
* Stay on the path.
Crazy how much of a "tutorial" the Ruins actually were, in the grand scheme of things.
Chris Hasting's fantastic comic series The Unbelievable Gwenpool is the best example of a "someone thinking they're playing GTA but it is actually real" I've seen.
1:38:23 Nice Death Note reference there, Arch. :]
"What a monster you're becoming!" *Sad sentimental music starts playing*
Great analysis. You really captured the motifs and theme of Undertale quite well. There is one aspect that I wanna bring up which you only briefly mentioned in you analysis that is the narrator theory.
Because through out the video you described Chara as this evil and malevoelnt force which quite understandable given what little direct information we have about the character but there are a lot of subtle hints that hint at a much deeper and tragic story behind Chara, one that actually fits the narrative of Undertale way better than "this character is evil and has no redeeming qualities".
I would even go as far to say that Chara itself is the biggest "bait and switch" in the whole game just because it's both blatantly stated in the game and yet done very subtley. There are so many aspects that contribute to this theory that listing it all here would probably take forever so I would suggest that you read this analysis which covers basicly the entire theory: determinators.tumblr.com/post/143284030397/greetings-uh-so-ive-been-working-on-this
I haven't played undertale yet. Been testing out a bunch of Undertale fan MMORPGS and figured I should get a refresher on the base game. Great content as always.
Great job on the rumination. Really loved the ending to this.
I think the ability to reach out is true power. You can t have that taken away until your choice is taken. Even then you can still choose if you take my meaning. This game is coffee for me but I understand why it hit so many people the right way. Keep up the good work.
Oh man am I crying big tears at that ending.
Thank you.
Fantastic rumination Arche! One of your best yet I think, keep up the good shit man.
I love this Rumination, I mostly like your take on the music motif and the your view on the meta of the game. I actually kind of believe that too that in that both Frisk and Chara stand in for two types of players. But mostly I love every main character has a theme like Sans is the game's mortal system and Papyrus is the game's heart.
Beautifully done. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
That moment just before the ending, the XP and LoV.
Had he given me the option then and there to start over, I would have taken it.
I'm not sure another game has ever drawn out the type and measure of feelings I felt while playing that game.
Lore really hit out of the park with this one!
Awesome rumination Arch. Undertale is such a great game. I've found more enjoyment out of it than any other game i've bought in years, and it's the only one in recent memory that has brought forth real emotion in me. I don't know if i'll ever play Undertale again. Maybe in a year or so.
Amazing and touching ending. *Applauds*
MASTERFUL ANALYSIS. Also I finally found someone that reads every Goombario/Bella flavor text just like me
Love this long content and your perspective!
Hey Arch, I was wondering where Undertale falls in your game ranking system. It is very clear from the way you talked about this game that it is in the art category for you, but does it crack the top 30? Personally, it takes the number 4 slot for me, and I was very happy to see such a long, thorough, and passionate analysis of it from you.
Alright. Alright. I've watched a few videos form your channel. And I know this video is older. Whatever. I don't even agree with many of your points (on other properties) though I still respect and appreciate the different viewpoint.
Now I don't know if you care or not - doesn't really matter to me anyways - but this is the video that made me subscribe.
In your explanation of Asgore's fight, it reminded me of the quote by Toriel in her battle in which she says"Attack or run away!" In Undyne's fight you can't simply spare her, so therefore you must run away from her to succeed, but in Asgore's fight you cant run away either, making the only choice to attack.
I always wondered if Sans *was* Gaster, that Gaster was who he was but experimentation took a part of him and it created a "shade". He can use Gaster's weapons, he has an interest in physics, and he is in despair and apathy because he *knows* that time can be reset and nothing matters.
So why not become someone else, a joker who loves his brother?
"Non-sequitur" translates from Latin to English, "Does not follow." : )
Not wanting to play the game ever again, I understand that exactly! So does anyone who has ever watched a little studio ghibli movie called "Grave of the Fireflies". A great if not phenomenal movie that you don't ever want to watch again. Not sure if the human heart can to multiple viewings of Grave of the Fireflies!?
I think the term you're looking for is 'architecture', though that might be more high-level than you're thinking.
From the future, Sans is a DLC outfit in Smash Bros Ultimate. This fills me with determination
Lore goes to 1 HP, then reaches out the hand. And then a rock accidentally falls on his head, and he dies for no reason, and the world has one less compassionate person in it. That's why it's better to have power... so things never have the chance to get that bad.
I hope Arch comments on Chara being the narrator in the pacifist run.
Edit: Watch this video Arch, it explains a hell of a lot about the character of Chara. /watch?v=MYHXpdNqdGs
Depression is the hardest blessing to bear.
I accidentally killed Toriel the first time. I didn't know how to spare, so I followed the one Froggit's tip of "drop their HP down and they'll give up," so I beat her down pretty far. With low HP, I kept tabs that one more full strength attack would take her to the point that another full strength would kill her. I figured that's the point where she'd give up. So I do, and notice, she took double damage, which, of course killed her. I was traumatized, seeing her soul shatter and leaving me standing there, alone. I immediately resetted. She comments that I look like I've seen a ghost. I didn't care, she needed to be saved, so I spammed the Spare button.
I'm with Hobbit Movie Saruman on this one. Power doesn't make it easy; power makes things possible. Without power, you don't have options. If you survive, it was luck. It's not moral superiority, and teaching people that it is makes you a diseased liar.
Says he'll just say "motif" from now on...then continues to say "leitmotif" over and over.
Would love to see you play through the game LISA: The First, and hear your thoughts on it. It's very short, but it presents a lot of interesting stuff imo
Ukh. "I'd rather be whatever will make people like me". What a diseased Aesop. I honestly pity (mixed with contempt) anyone who sympathizes or resonates at all with that disgusting, horrific line. Nothing is more soulless and empty than a person who has no true self of their own, and will just tell whatever lie is best for manipulating you, with such skillful deception that they themself believe it.
can someone here explain to me what "meta" and "...'something'-switch" mean?
Nice rumination!
Hey, Lorerunner? There's one question I have for you that wasn't mentioned in your *extensive* review that I really want to know your opinion on. How do you feel about Sans killing you if you spare him on a genocide run?
I don't really know how to answer that. I imagine no player on that route would accept that, and I imagine Chara's... essence would never accept that either. Sans himself said it best, "Yeah, you're the type of person who won't EVER be happy."
I think that sans lost all hope that you could reset and do a pacifist playthrough and released his anger at you, since he is at the very least partily aware that you won't ever truly die... At that point he sees you as the perfect punching bag, because you killed toriel, papyrus and almost everyone else, with the exception of some of the monsters from snowdin and some who were from hotland and the core (maybe even the residents of the capital/new home) and very likely alphys and monster kid... Sans knew that at least he could try to make you stop trying and reset time and maybe not kill everyone by making it look like he is unbeatable (well he is almost)...
... Okay.
I'm here to stay.
Did you just say Madoka magica effect?
God lorerunner is great
Woah woah woah, May 13th is the most important day of the year.
It's my birthday :)
Late happy birthday and a super early happy birthday for 2022 as well. :)
A few things I want to talk about. While I agree that Papyrus is a teddy bear, there's something wrong with both him and Sans. Sure, we know a good bit about Sans but if you really loo at Papyrus's dialogue, we know almost nothing about him besides the fact he feels like he doesn't belong even though everyone is affected by his death.
I completely disagree about Chara being a complete monster as there's too much evidence against it. Like the laughing is used as a coping mechanism which is shown when you face Snowdrake's mom and Toriel does it when she's dying. Or that the tone of the narration changes from punny and kind(Like Toriel(I'm serious, she talks like Toriel like Aseril talks like Asgore)) to cruel and matter of fact. But one for the biggest thing for me that proves Chara wasn't evil until being introduce to LOVE comes from the ending and this line that Chara says
"At first, I was so confused.
Our plan had failed, hadn't it?
Why was I brought back to life?
...
You.
With your guidance.
I realized the purpose of my reincarnation."
It basically says everything that Chara learns from the Geno run was because Frisk thought them that.
Also, there's a theory called "the delta ending" that says there might be a fourth ending coming soon. Mainly because the property is never fulfiled. I mean, Napstablook was never absorbed by Asreil and the reindeer monster plans on staying behind when the rest leave.
And Gaster, well, he's fair game at this point but I don't think if we meet him he'll be a sane person. 666 is literally his number.
Well done, Arch. Well done.
Urgh. Remembering that you forgot something is one of the worst torments imaginable. I know that all too well, to my sorrow.
AW YE SO HYPE, ITS HERE
That ending really got to me, hard
So basically this is the big exception to Lore's frequently mentioned policy of "every RPG should have NewGamePlus".
Nice Finale.
should I watch your other Undertale videos first and then this one?
Upon reflection I'm pretty glad I named my character lilsht.Far more appropriate name for that murderous little shitgoblin than Chara.
For me the only non-sequitir that rubs me the wrong way is Mushroom Dance in Temmie Village. It feels too out of place with it explaining its feelings and stuff, y'know?
Undertale never really interested me but I may have been wrong to dismiss it.
Great game!
What's the song at the end?
"Undertale." No seriously.
*Hug*
Thank you Arch
I'll probably never play this game so this will be the next best thing. Isn't this PC only?
It's been released on certain consoles, IIRC.
Initially yes, it was just on PC.
But at this point, it's on each of the major consoles.
(Console-wise, I'd go with the Switch version myself.
But any of them are worth playing.)
arch, I will disagree that chara is evil.
laughing is how many people cope for a detailed view look at underlabs video on her but she in my view is clearly caring of all of the monsters and definitely loved the dreamer family, I would love to here anyones view of her if she is just influenced by you and wonts you to do something for a reason.
please let me know what you all think of that
OH SHIT HE DID IT :D
Da hOIpe iz reel!
ua-cam.com/video/-i7Hj1fAYN4/v-deo.html