Yeah! Can we address that? The INSANE amount of people in the community that care a lot more about people reacting with disdain, than they do about making sure everyone else has just as much fun…
I get what you’re saying, but knowing Joey and many others there’s a big difference between saying something sincerely like on these videos and something in the moment for entertainment value and a little bit of friendly jabs to your buddy.
I've been able to avoid the problem of having to de-optimize my decks by playing with bad cards. Also it's a great strategy to beat theft deck's! 😃 🤔 😐 😣
Me too thanks casual commander is about fun. Funny story played against a mono blue theft deck and he wanted to steal my flying walls more because they were good blockers against the yuriko deck.
I love the point y'all made about "Yea, this win condition is effective, but is it fun after the first time?" This is why I retire cards from many of my long-standing decks and try to replace them with a new and hopefully more novel way to play.
I really like the question that Matt posed at the end there. For myself, I have taken apart so many decks, and one of the most common reasons why is because the deck doesn't spark joy to me anymore. And the progression to that point maybe a case of the deck is already solved, like the deck builds itself, not much creative input is needed, or the deck is doing something similar to another deck I have and I love playing more (which is something I try to avoid in a big way as I want each of my decks to have their own spotlight in my roster of decks). And so the line I draw is can I tune, adjust the deck to be unique and enjoyable? or has it become a chore to where I no longer have fun with this deoptimizing process? When it becomes a chore, I know I need to take the deck apart for good.
As someone who plays a lot of graveyard decks, a lot of people seem to think I'll be opposed to any kind of graveyard interaction. I have to tell them that I'm not - I love interaction. Just Rest In Peace is so damn efficient that it's a problem.
The issues often is, that people tend to remove ALL cards in your graveyard - thus removing your entire strategy - instead of picking away big ones. It is like most players feels there is no number between 0 and 100%.
@@kunopumpernikkel215 yeah, I don't have any opposition to Bojuka Bog or Tormod's Crypt, which can be backbreaking to graveyard strategies, but they at least let you rebuild. Rest in Peace is like if Wrath of God stuck around after wiping the board and prevented anyone from playing any more creatures until it was removed. There are a few enchantments that kinda work like that and nobody plays them because they're super unfun. But some people think it's ok to play RIP because it's only unfun for the graveyard player.
I feel I like disassembling over deoptimization. Mostly because I like trying out different commanders and deck archetypes while finding decks that mesh well to the groups I play with. Great topic
I'm so glad you guys made this video because I totally do the same thing of deoptimization with my decks. I know for me I get a lot of enjoyment from using kinda niche or more narrowly tailored cards because I like finding a home for them. Like I don't use my Selvala Heart of the Wilds in any of my big stompy decks rn bc it's too broadly applicable and powerful
Great video guys - this is something I work with and struggle with when building decks I look at where they are going to fit. Loved the end where you talked about fully optimized decks and deciding to make them strong too. For example I've had a Niv-Mizzet deck that's been my strongest deck forever. It used to be The Firemind until Parun came out and because the best way to build it and my favorite was the infinite draw 2 card combos - Curiosity et al it often got a lot of hate. I didn't want to disassemble it and it always got groans so I made it my cEDH deck and now it only plays in a certain level of decks.
I've had a real hard time deoptimizing my Kess deck and still making her playable. I eventually just switched commanders to Vayren. The deck is way more fun to pilot ever since that switch
To piggy back on the comment about it being easier to start over building a deck than to power it down, I'd love to see an episode about how to build something at precon level for when you want to have something to play with newer players.
I would recommend trying a budget list. Granted that price isnt completely related to power, but it gets you to look at alternative, more "casual", cards.
I think there's a certain amount to be said about a deck no longer feeling like what you had built originally. I have a Shattergang Eldrazi deck that I made into Morophon after Modern Horizons, but I soon changed it back because having access to all five colors diluted what I have built the deck to be originally. And even having a five color general just didn't feel right for what I had set out to build in the first place. Which was just a eldrazi stompy deck.
Joey, I recently watched an episode of commander clash where Seth prooooobably better known as Saffron Olive played a “Russian roulette” yennet deck with a couple bad 7 and 9 drops that basically lost the game for him on the spot you have to watch it it was glorious
Ive Just realized you didnt reviewed Kamigawa, and I'm Glad to see the usual content we all love instead of endless reviews that potentially just burn you out
You guys are amazing i love that you all scale your decks appropriatly for a fun game experience for all instead of just going for the win. I qwite often find myself putting in brutal cards just to it happen in a game but when its obvious that no one enjoys it but me it comes right out.
Well, looks like I'm building Anax (Hardened in the Forge) based off of cards in my collection. I definitely have quite a few interesting red enchantments to try out.
I agree with Dana on Minamo and legends so much! Literally this evening I looked at Bard Class in my Wulfgar deck and there were 20 legendary cards it would reduce the price of.
What The Mimeoplasm is to Joey is what Samut is to me: a deck where I put all my favorite, most powerful, and/or blinged out stuff that has, in some ever-evolving form or another, been with me since my earliest days of no-format kitchen table magic back in 2015.
I try to aim for a similar plan; I do have a sense of when something is a bit much to me, but I also like using my very good cards (FoW, Mana Crypt, etc.) and would rather find a commander or gameplan that by its nature has a low ceiling than intentionally using cards I know are worse than what I have available.
I always aim for that level 8, non-cEDH power level, and because I pull back on the reigns when building, usually falls short. Edgar Markov, being my first, always gets the best toys. I’ve upgraded this so many times and now that I’ve turned it into a combo deck, it has all of the tutors. I do play Torment of Hailfire, but I have some unique ways of casting it and it’s not my main wincon. I did take the Sanguine Bond/Exquisite Blood combo out. I thought it was overly cheesy and it didn’t fit the new theme of the deck. I didn’t put it back in when I built Licia, even though it does fit the theme better, gaining and losing a massive amount of life. They’re too expensive, too clunky, and still doesn’t support casting Licia as well as other cards. This is easily my most unique deck as it runs a number of cards Dana would probably struggle to remember. It’s hard to find cards to change the power level of the deck, up or down. The only tutor is Razaketh, but getting him out really opens up the options. Karona is my little engine that could. I’ve given her a number of upgrades but I don’t know if she’s ever going to get more powerful, but there is a chance with the amount of new equipment and aura cards they’re coming out with. Still, she’s a Voltron deck and sacrificing is still a problem. Anger of Jubilation can only do so much. Lastly is Queen Marchesa. When I built her as this hodgepodge monarch/forced combat/stop hitting yourself deck, I immediately locked myself out of pillowfort and goad strategies. The point is to dare people to attack me (since I’m forcing them to attack every turn anyways) and I actually have a potential prize or two. In doing so though, I wanted to punish their insolence with death by a 1000 cuts. The deck reminds me of the movie Saw in a way. I don’t think she’s too powerful, but I’m interested in seeing how people react to her. She doesn’t need any tutors since there’s no real combo aspects that I must have, the cards naturally link in synergy. I still haven’t found a home for Exquisite Blood. 🙁
I haven’t gone back and removed strong cards from decks, but I’ve completely changed the way I build decks based on decks I’ve built in the past and decks I’ve played against. I absolutely hate playing against every single free counter spell in the game. I hate playing against Elesh Norn as someone who likes mana dorks. I don’t think it’s fun playing against someone who every game tutors up their 1 or 2 card combo. I hate playing against people stealing everything I play. I don’t feel good about myself playing Dranith Magistrate. Because I’ve learned what sucks to play against, I build decks that I can have fun with myself that don’t leave a sour taste for everyone else at the table
I haven't started playing commander yet, but I like a lot on the deckbuilding, but I have a case of this. My OG deck, a Wrath of the Mortasl Event Deck was very good, and then I tunned him, and it became one of the most broken decks on our playgroup, so if we started a One for All, I would be many times be targeted first or second because I deal so much damage so quick. In the end, because we were only 12 year old people playing a game, most of times we would do a 3x3 and go with it The only problem is that if we changed one person, than the whole thing is unbalanced and becomes a stomp lol
What I do is limit myself to on theme power cards for each deck. Edgar markov gets vampiric tutor and grim tutor, prosper gets demonic and profane but they both can’t have all 4. Teferi’s protection ? Only if teferi is in the deck. Esper sentinel ? Only in an artifact deck. Revel in riches and pitiless plunderer and dockside can only be a deck with a pirate commander etc. fetchlands? Only if they share all colors they can fetch with my commander. Tons of counter spells like the forces? Well that’s gotta be a wizard commander etc. This keeps the decks powerful enough to finish games but leaves plenty of slots fot fun theme cards. Being on theme has always been important in every game I’ve ever played and commander is perfect for this expression.
Glad I stumbled on this episode today, I have just begun this process with a couple decks, but was a bit insecure about it. Thank you, I don't feel silly anymore or, in another perspective, condescending.
@@1235q Not necessarily, just VERY linear and "same-y." It's not a deck I'd want to play against. She is pretty strong as well but that's not the problem. I had a similar experience with Siona, but even Siona has more "play" since she can go wide/combo off.
The small problem with "Lasagne Tier" is that it could propagate a "Garfield Tier" as like Garfield I'm sure some of the players in the Lasagne Tier would like just a little bit more than their fair share of the Lasagne.
Problem is I’m happy taking tutors out of my deck, problem is my opponents won’t, and I’ll just get stomped. I have tried it before, it doesn’t work in almost any playgroup I’ve ever been in
@@VexylObby Except this isn't a cooperative game. Cooperative games have you playing against the game itself and the group wins or loses. Magic games always have a winner. I've been playing multiplayer MTG since I started this game in 95 and I don't think I've ever played with a group that considered it cooperative. As a group we try to build our decks in a close power level, but play our best lines.
@@rodgerlang884 I said cooperative experience. OBVIOUSLY, the game itself is free for all. But we are all coming together to have a shared enjoyment. C'mon now....
I have a niv-mizzet parun deck that used to have all the possible combos with niv and some other two card combos (curiosity-like effects, lab man/jace, etc..) the deck had some fun lines like enter the infinite + seismic assault/locust god, but my playgroup didnt had a lot of interaction and some of them hated to play against the deck and to "lose out of nowhere". The deck wasnt strong, the mana base was clunky, ramp was bad (a lot of 3+ mv mana rocks), card draw wasnt good either and i thought that way the deck was balanced. But in the end this just made the wins feel more explosive and out of nowhere because the deck did nothing for 99% of the game then won in a blink. Not to mention that since the deck was slow i had a lot of board wipes so i could slow down the game until i could combo win. So the deck had "unfair" lines of play, but was bad in general to try to compensate it and that just made things worse. In the end i made a overhaul and took all the combos out of the deck, put more single target interactions and made the deck be more spellslinger with a lot of cheap spells. Now the deck have a more consistent play style and have less "highs and lows", i mean: the floor is higher than before, but the ceilling is way closer to the floor, the deck is stronger overall, but do weaker things. And that helped a lot with the feels bad moments. And people started playing more interaction too.
scavenging ooze and scavenger grounds replacing the rest in piece and anafenza are actual replacements i did in my Tymna/Kamahl deck. i would love a powered down Dauthi Voidwalker as well. but it works so good with tymna so idk.
I do have decks I try to keep 'lower power', but I do have a habit of trying to optimize whatever I'm trying to do, so the key is picking something that I want to do that is appropriate for a certain power level, then optimize to there. I think there is such a thing as a having 2 decks that are both 6's in terms of what they are trying to do, but one is just a better built deck, and will win more in a pod with the other deck, even if both are arguably the same power level. Neither will be fun with a bunch of low power decks, and neither will have much luck vs high power decks, yet you'll find that when fairly matched, one of them is better at being a 6. This is what I mean by optimizing to what you're trying to do, IE pick a combo that is by definition inefficient and you cap your power level, for good or ill. Tutors are a good way to control power level for a deck. It's very different when you're running a Demonic Tutor to find a wipe or removal effect when you need one, it's very different to run Protean Hulk to find Mikaeus and Ballista to win on the spot, where any tutoring is likely oriented around finding your Hulk and cheating it out somehow to find your win con. It's too neat and tidy to be able to tutor for 1 card to combo off with, something like that starts approaching 8 or 9, where you're probably using a cEDH viable combo, regardless of whether the deck itself is viable in cEDH, and it has very good odds thus vs anything lower power, even a better built lower power deck. I think most Walking Ballista infinite combos are pretty high power potentially, IE can go infinite and win with relatively little support/set up, so these aren't suitable for decks aimed at lower power games, 6 downwards IMHO. I think it's a fun exercise to try to build an openly weaker Commander, and to try to build it to a power level a bit higher than it is suited to. You have to be more cutthroat than average to find a way to win with a weaker Commander, and people will tolerate something more pushed cards in a deck they know isn't going to be doing anything nuts by definition. My solution so far is to try to keep a low profile and use political effects to encourage people to look elsewhere, lots of rattlesnake stuff, but the deck can also form an alliance if it seems like the best play, and it can do some nasty stuff to an archenemy. It can also be fun to build a deck around trying to 'do a thing' that isn't necessarily win the game, but which will hopefully help you win it anyways, like a Chaos deck, and in a Chaos deck it can be hard to be too powerful, but Chaos can be very skill testing, so still not good for some playgroups I'm sure. Another weird option I'm working on is to make a 'power level' modular deck, which will have a cEDH, High Power and Casual mode, with some cards shared, but with a bunch that change so that the deck is doing something appropriate to it's desired 'power level'. It's a spellslinger deck at low levels, but it becomes a Polymorph build at higher levels, with the High Power having little difficutly switching between spellslinger or Polymorph, and the cEDH is pretty much all in on the nastiest thing I could think of polymorphing out, backed by counters, but this deck will struggle a fair bit if it can't use Proteus Staff, and probably won't win without it. You have very different goals and needs at different levels, so it's a lot of fun to see if you can get the balance right for each, and can find a Commander suitable for the treatment. This might be a good way to run a normally inappropriate for Casual option, since people will know you're using a mode that is lower power (still some trust I guess). I draw the line at disassembling when I would need to heavily change a deck for some reason (I'd have to be very unhappy with it), and the changes that would make it better are for me not desirable for some reason. There are builds that aren't inspiring to me, and if I felt like I 'had to' run that build to play at the level I wanted a deck to play at, I'd probably choose to take it apart and build something else with the cards.
i actually find myself de optimizing decks now all the time and usually the cards i start with are 1) the tutors, and 2) those staple cards. The cards that everyone says is so good it goes in every deck, like smothering tithe, rhystic study, teferi's protection, those cards. If it's so good that it is always a great card no matter what strategy you are running, then i'm probably taking it out just to make room for more fun and interesting cards
I built my thantis, the warweaver deck in the same way as your karazakar deck. Make everyone attack and protect myself a little from attacks against me
I have one sweaty deck running stuff like tutors, U, Island, Force of Will. Then I have 4 more fun and janky decks that don't run tutors and fetches (aside from rampant growth like cards). Or things like counterspells, mass boardwipes and infinite combos. Being able to play at a lower power is generally (for me at least) way more fun. However it is very nice to have a qsuedo cEDH deck to play against the "try-hard" players.
I tend to play underpowered commanders for certain archetypes. For example I run Slimefoot as my aristocrats commander and Adeliz for my wizards trible deck. I'm still able to run the good stuff but I dont have a super powerful commander to make the deck feel OP.
The vampire precon from Ixalan had Butcher of Malakir in it, but I removed it in favor of Urborg Justice. Similar effect that isn't easily repeatable and is targeted.
I'm a new player (started in January) but my play group's been playing for many years. The amount of times I've heard "Well I don't want to play X, but I know runs Y, so I need to" is a bit overwhelming.
I always keep exactly one inf combo in all my decks. I get they're boring, but sometimes you run into situations where the game has been on for so long and you're just not having fun anymore. But noone wants to concede. So having an out to that is fine for me. My way to de-escalate is to play boros all the time 😂 Speaking of boros, I have 2 experiences to share. My all time fav deck is my Aurelia the Warleader, which is kinda in that high power range with mana crypt, swords, tutors, and stuff, and I don't think I'm ever going to de-optimize. I did remove the Godo Helm combo, and aggravated assault, in favor of the new swords of heart and home, but that's it. The deck is a blast to play right now and I think it strikes the right balance of power and fun for everyone. The other boros deck is Winota, which I'm badly try to power down, but the deck just keeps stomping every deck it faces, no matter how hard I try. Because what am I gonna do? Not snowball out of control? As a result, I'm hardly playing this deck anymore, despite my love for this lady. Which sucks
I have 2 decks that are built specifically to win. One is definitely a CEDH deck, and the other is around a 8 - 8.5 power level with less fast mana than the CEDH. It doesn't have any infinite combos, but it does have some combos that can kill in one strike and tutors. Otherwise I've tried to limit myself with tutors, combos, and win-cons like Approach or Revel in Riches. Not saying I don't run them at all. I just limit them. Torment is one that I too have removed I think from all of my decks.
Most of my decks are quite terrible but my jori en storm deck never lost a game so I made the cmc 1-2 then 7-9 instead of 1-3 and I've lost a few games since so that's wonderful.
I had a Breya Superfriends deck that was playing several Armageddon effects that I stopped playing not because the MLD was unfun for people in my playgroup (only ever cast if I'd win within one or two turns), but because the turns took sooooo long & that was clearly boring for everyone else at the table. I also had a Mairsil deck that was just a turbo-combo deck that wasn't interactive at all & either popped off & won the game or didn't win at all. It was a fun deck to build & to goldfish though.
I've never deoptimized a deck intentionally. My closest example is a boros equipment deck (Akiri, fearless voyager) which I feel is in a state that I really enjoy. It also has half a dozen tutors in it, e.g. sfm, fighter class, inventors fair, stonehewer giant, relic seeker, as well as Godo + Helm combo, and a Sunforger. In most tables I play on the deck performs respectably; it doesn't always win, but when it does it's usually turn 9, 10, or 11 with either a good Akroma's Will swing with a wide board, or my commander managed to go voltron, or nobody could interrupt Godo. But there's been this podcast, another podcast I listen to, and one of my opponents who's told me that tutors are against the spirit of the game. I like tutors because I like having options and decisions to make while playing the game, plus the deck simply doesn't function if it doesn't have access to its equipment. I *could* go play a 60 card format, but I don't want to; that's not what everyone else is playing, commander is what my favorite content creators are playing, and I can't legitimately play Argentum Armor in any other format.
I think that one opponent who got snappy at me was just salty because we've played in a pod of 3 a handful of times and I had about a %50 win rate, therefore I must have been doing something unfun. I've had another opponent who characterized my deck a "fair" (even Godo+helm he called a "fair" combo), so it depends on the pod. It's just difficult to align expectations when both of these groups would call themselves somewhere between upgraded pre-cons and sub-cEDH
I love my Narset. I basically just built her into a Spellsinger deck using more Cantrips and Combat Tricks instead of just cheating out and chaining a bunch of Extra Turns/Combats. The deck functions well without Narset ever needing to be Casted but of course performs better with her out. Even if you kill my Narset a few times, I’ll just finish you off with a Guttersnipe and an Overloaded Mizzix’s Mastery anyway.
I often like to include like ONE two/three card combo in decks that isn’t a primary win condition, or the thing that I’m tutoring for, but just as insurance for games that are going too long and people are losing steam. Like I have a Carth The Lion super friends deck that already runs Professor Onyx, so I threw chain of smog in the deck as well (with no way to tutor for it or Professor Onyx). Usually if I have both pieces that’s a sign that the game should be ending soon anyway. It’s not a fun or glamorous way to win, but especially with super friends, I find that sometimes the board becomes totally gridlocked, no one knows what to attack, I’m going to win eventually but it’s not going to be quick or fun, and on those occasions it’s nice to have something that’s like “game over.”
For me, the one deck I could tune down but don't is my Kaalia of the Vast deck. My very first commander and easily my favorite deck. Does it draw hate, oh heck yes, do I win a lot, not really. But I always have fun with the deck and i enjoy the level where it is. When it works, the deck is amazing and just stomps people. But it doesn't always work 100% of the time. But this is the one deck I will continue to tune up and optimize because of the joy the deck brings me regardless if I win or not
I stopped tuning decks to become more powerful and focused on making them work with themseöves instead. I thought this would make them less powerful, but the result was the opposite. 😱
I just completely overhauled Feather to be more of a spellslinger deck, downgrading the old voltron strategy to plan B. Loved the old version, very nostalgic for me, but even I was feeling done with it, to say nothing of my playgroups' opinions.
My group is very casual, so I put some extra limitations on myself... My Breya has no infinite combos, my Talrand has only combat damage as a wincon, and Ayula...well, playing Bear tribal is a handicap already
I definitely have struggled with power level of my decks. I built a Breya combo deck and spent around 2 weeks building and optimizing it, but I ended up HATING it. It was extremely un-fun to top deck a tutor like Whir of Invention and feeling like “Oh, what I was doing before this was fun, but now I’ll just cast this and win”. It was almost disappointing to see that nothing my opponents or I had done until that point was meaningless. Then my decks got close to “no wincon”
I've started siding out Curse of Opulence for two reasons. 1) The extra mana is so tempting that it puts someone in the archenemy seat, who usually can't handle the gang-up. 2) Optimally, it goes on the player who won't be playing a lot of blockers instead of the biggest threat on the table, because its easier to divert the archenemy's attention than to take them down. I'll still play it against obvious archenemy decks (cough korvold cough) but I think I've had my fill of gold.
I make fun janky theme decks based on the planes for certain commanders, they are by no means strong but very fun, the issue i have is we get a player at my lgs that bring a cedh deck and everyone is scared to poke at them and we all lose to the cedh guy. So ive built a very cruel dimir rogue control deck and on the next week after being slaughtered i bring my brutal deck. Also ive just recently built a vehicle theme deck but it gets slaughtered by the "staple" decks around so ive outfitted it with board wipes that my vehicles can handle, its not gonna be pretty but hey- if the staple decks are gonna be a consistant meta i will flatten the meta by building decks that eat staples.
As someone who's new to magic, how mean of a deck is too mean for your LGS commander night? Is this even something I should worry about if I'm just playing someone random at the same table?
i don’t know man, a mono red deck featuring only permanent spells still gets imperial recruiter, kiki jiki , splinter twin, and their friends that work with them in mono red
After going off in every game of the session yesterday, I asked my friends to be honest with me - is Gonti's Aether Heart unfun in Mishra, Eminent One? I'd asked this before when I'd won several back to back games with it, but - despite what their body language said - they'd always insisted that it's fine and that everyone else in the group runs powerful wincons. This time, they finally told me what I'd suspected: it's anticlimactic, it's too easy for my deck to pull off (even without tutors), and it's unfun. When I got home, this was in my recommended videos. The algorithm knows all! Today, I'm going to take it out and see what happens.
Could you guys do an episode discussing the merits of a commander league style of play with a list of achievements or penalties that score side "points" to encourage or discourage different types of play and which ones you would or wouldn't recommend? Ex1: -2 for tutoring for any card other than a basic land. Ex2: +5 killing someone with commander dmg. Etc...
My biggest problem with decks has been trying to focus too much on combos within the deck, examples being Sydri and Tayam. There are cool combos you can do with them, but I had more fun playing them without the crazy powerful combos
Instead of taking tutors out now I only run tutors that are on theme. In my jodah the unifier deck I care about multicolored spells and legendary creatures so I run eladamris call, time of need, and supply/demand but no other tutors except land ramp that all finds multicolored lands
I want to challenge the stats on Fellwar Stone and Exotic Orchard. They show up in WAY TOO MANY edh decks. They dont even fix your mana unless you are running 5 colors or are playing in a pod where your opponents are running all your colors. I can see them in 5 color decks maybe those like Atraxa and Berea with 4 colors, but 1-3 color decks and mainly 2 color decks, they are just bad. Same goes for the talismans, I dont like the talismans, id rather have 1 more basic land of each type...especially when im running 2-3 color decks which is my norm. I just think those carda are over played. Myriad Landscape is underplayed, especially in 2-3 color decks, and the same goes for other utility lands like Field of the Dead for the exotic orchard replacement. As for the Fellwar Stone. Fireminds Vessel or Nyx Lotus are both really good options, yes they enter tapped but they fix your mana for your colors. Because ive played temur against an entire pod of Orzhov and found no use for Fellwar Stone or Exotic orchard.
I got into magic specifically for the joy of tweaking and tuning a deck and in my short time playing I've already encountered cards and combos that, while strong, really dont lead to an enjoyable game imo.
Does this mean I have to add to the pregame talk the question "are we playing to win?" I may build some really janky decks, but when I play, I always try to play my best lines. I just never thought the conversation for a game had to include questions about winning. I've also had someone choose to not win a game when they could and I just scoop at that point. I'd rather you end the game and we just shuffle up for the next one than keep playing a game that has no purpose
I would probably take apart a lot more decks than the 2 or 3 I've ever actually taken apart if decks didn't cost money. Sunk cost fallacy, I suppose. I always feel like there's gotta be a way to fix it. It's to a point with some where some will sit idle for months or a year at a time. TBH, at this point, I hope to one day just pass them on, hope they do better for someone else.
I was just thinking about detuning my yuriko and kathril decks. I've already taken my best cards out of both of them for decks I actually play and was thinking about making them legal but without any of my most powerful cards.
@@zackkelley2940 yeah that's funny. Or just take out all the most efficient counterspells, the tutors, premium mana fixing, and expensive and annoying top deck manipulation.
@@RandomInternetUser999 Was I joking? I don't play Yuriko for the same reason I don't play Urza or Chulane. Some commanders are so over the top you could run em on a shoestring budget and STILL steamroll everything.
@@RandomInternetUser999 Best bet for detuning a Yuriko deck, past running fewer tutors etc, would probably be to run fewer ninjas and less high cmc stuff.
I'm sorry but can anyone explain how Matt thi is there's a functional difference between Scavenging Ooze and Rest in Peace? Both equally shut out a graveyard player indefinitely untill they can answer it.
Scavenging Ooze is a creature which is MUCH easier to answer and it's an activated ability which requires mana to use. It also TARGETS instead of exiling everything which means even if you can't get rid of it you might be able to work out a deal with whomever's using it so you're not completely shut down.
@@zackkelley2940 Deals or not the Scooze player is not gonna let the grave player take the game if they can stop it. It's effect can just be used in response to removal still crippling a player who's grave is set up.
The difference in functionality is the same as the functional difference between a sniper and a nuke. Sniper is target by target, nuke is scorched earth. If you're playing your own graveyard stuff, you won't use RiP...
@@EJsGameplay Duh? I never said they would. I'm merely pointing out that Scavenging Ooze is somewhat easier to deal with as it's a creature, and somewhat harder to abuse, as it requires leaving mana open. Rest in Peace is a type that is harder to deal with and requires no further investment to hose everyone's graveyard.
The best answer I have for not using good cards is to not use them or discard them knowingly instead of playing them. If I want a powered down deck I just make a weaker version of that deck that is what I do personally. I don't see myself wanting to power down my deck at all personally under any circumstances but that is just me.
Why is it fair for the person with the most optimised deck to downgrade it instead of the people who have unoptimised decks to grind in order to be able to get better stuff for theirs? If youre playing the FIFA world cup is it reasonable to bench your best players so you can compete "at the same level" as say an African team who doesnt have as much money to invest into football??? I think we should start normalising optimising decks. If its more fun for other people not to play tutors for example fine, but dont expect me to take away mine just because of your decision. I play to win and having fun is part of the process but not the ultimate goal.
Joey: “I don’t have fun when you’re not having fun.”
Everyone I’ve ever played against: “The more bitter you are, the better I feel.”
Also - Joey on the podcast: “I don’t have fun when you’re not having fun.”
Joey on the Twitch stream: “The more bitter you are, the better I feel.”
Yeah! Can we address that? The INSANE amount of people in the community that care a lot more about people reacting with disdain, than they do about making sure everyone else has just as much fun…
Yep those players are known as Dave's.
I get what you’re saying, but knowing Joey and many others there’s a big difference between saying something sincerely like on these videos and something in the moment for entertainment value and a little bit of friendly jabs to your buddy.
Sounds like your playing against blue players
I've been able to avoid the problem of having to de-optimize my decks by playing with bad cards. Also it's a great strategy to beat theft deck's! 😃 🤔 😐 😣
Pro plays. I actively play “bad cards” too haha
Me too thanks casual commander is about fun. Funny story played against a mono blue theft deck and he wanted to steal my flying walls more because they were good blockers against the yuriko deck.
@@kingfuzzy2 flying walls lmao
Definitely hilarious : D
My local meta is full of theft decks. They hate my deck because it's all synergy and combo pieces!
I love the point y'all made about "Yea, this win condition is effective, but is it fun after the first time?" This is why I retire cards from many of my long-standing decks and try to replace them with a new and hopefully more novel way to play.
I really like the question that Matt posed at the end there. For myself, I have taken apart so many decks, and one of the most common reasons why is because the deck doesn't spark joy to me anymore. And the progression to that point maybe a case of the deck is already solved, like the deck builds itself, not much creative input is needed, or the deck is doing something similar to another deck I have and I love playing more (which is something I try to avoid in a big way as I want each of my decks to have their own spotlight in my roster of decks). And so the line I draw is can I tune, adjust the deck to be unique and enjoyable? or has it become a chore to where I no longer have fun with this deoptimizing process? When it becomes a chore, I know I need to take the deck apart for good.
As someone who plays a lot of graveyard decks, a lot of people seem to think I'll be opposed to any kind of graveyard interaction. I have to tell them that I'm not - I love interaction. Just Rest In Peace is so damn efficient that it's a problem.
The issues often is, that people tend to remove ALL cards in your graveyard - thus removing your entire strategy - instead of picking away big ones. It is like most players feels there is no number between 0 and 100%.
@@kunopumpernikkel215 yeah, I don't have any opposition to Bojuka Bog or Tormod's Crypt, which can be backbreaking to graveyard strategies, but they at least let you rebuild. Rest in Peace is like if Wrath of God stuck around after wiping the board and prevented anyone from playing any more creatures until it was removed. There are a few enchantments that kinda work like that and nobody plays them because they're super unfun. But some people think it's ok to play RIP because it's only unfun for the graveyard player.
I feel I like disassembling over deoptimization. Mostly because I like trying out different commanders and deck archetypes while finding decks that mesh well to the groups I play with. Great topic
"Slugs are just homeless snails" CAME OUTTA NOWHERE. It got nothing to do with snails being slow. But you know what it got? Me
I'm so glad you guys made this video because I totally do the same thing of deoptimization with my decks. I know for me I get a lot of enjoyment from using kinda niche or more narrowly tailored cards because I like finding a home for them. Like I don't use my Selvala Heart of the Wilds in any of my big stompy decks rn bc it's too broadly applicable and powerful
Great video guys - this is something I work with and struggle with when building decks I look at where they are going to fit. Loved the end where you talked about fully optimized decks and deciding to make them strong too.
For example I've had a Niv-Mizzet deck that's been my strongest deck forever. It used to be The Firemind until Parun came out and because the best way to build it and my favorite was the infinite draw 2 card combos - Curiosity et al it often got a lot of hate. I didn't want to disassemble it and it always got groans so I made it my cEDH deck and now it only plays in a certain level of decks.
great episode thank you
I've had a real hard time deoptimizing my Kess deck and still making her playable. I eventually just switched commanders to Vayren. The deck is way more fun to pilot ever since that switch
To piggy back on the comment about it being easier to start over building a deck than to power it down, I'd love to see an episode about how to build something at precon level for when you want to have something to play with newer players.
I would recommend trying a budget list. Granted that price isnt completely related to power, but it gets you to look at alternative, more "casual", cards.
If you want a deck at precon levels why not also get a precon…
I think there's a certain amount to be said about a deck no longer feeling like what you had built originally. I have a Shattergang Eldrazi deck that I made into Morophon after Modern Horizons, but I soon changed it back because having access to all five colors diluted what I have built the deck to be originally. And even having a five color general just didn't feel right for what I had set out to build in the first place. Which was just a eldrazi stompy deck.
Joey, I recently watched an episode of commander clash where Seth prooooobably better known as Saffron Olive played a “Russian roulette” yennet deck with a couple bad 7 and 9 drops that basically lost the game for him on the spot you have to watch it it was glorious
It was indeed beautiful I run a narsett group hug deck with the same game plan.
I've always found Seth's intro hilarious, if someone asked me if I knew a player called Saffron Olive I'd just ask who? Did he run Phage?
Ive Just realized you didnt reviewed Kamigawa, and I'm Glad to see the usual content we all love instead of endless reviews that potentially just burn you out
You guys are amazing i love that you all scale your decks appropriatly for a fun game experience for all instead of just going for the win. I qwite often find myself putting in brutal cards just to it happen in a game but when its obvious that no one enjoys it but me it comes right out.
My xyris deck did descale but also switch so many directions. From beatdown, to wheel, to hardcontroll, to grouphug, to chaos xD
Well, looks like I'm building Anax (Hardened in the Forge) based off of cards in my collection. I definitely have quite a few interesting red enchantments to try out.
I agree with Dana on Minamo and legends so much! Literally this evening I looked at Bard Class in my Wulfgar deck and there were 20 legendary cards it would reduce the price of.
What The Mimeoplasm is to Joey is what Samut is to me: a deck where I put all my favorite, most powerful, and/or blinged out stuff that has, in some ever-evolving form or another, been with me since my earliest days of no-format kitchen table magic back in 2015.
Im quite competitive so whats working for me is selecting more niche commanders that naturally have a lower ceiling
I try to aim for a similar plan; I do have a sense of when something is a bit much to me, but I also like using my very good cards (FoW, Mana Crypt, etc.) and would rather find a commander or gameplan that by its nature has a low ceiling than intentionally using cards I know are worse than what I have available.
I always aim for that level 8, non-cEDH power level, and because I pull back on the reigns when building, usually falls short.
Edgar Markov, being my first, always gets the best toys. I’ve upgraded this so many times and now that I’ve turned it into a combo deck, it has all of the tutors. I do play Torment of Hailfire, but I have some unique ways of casting it and it’s not my main wincon. I did take the Sanguine Bond/Exquisite Blood combo out. I thought it was overly cheesy and it didn’t fit the new theme of the deck.
I didn’t put it back in when I built Licia, even though it does fit the theme better, gaining and losing a massive amount of life. They’re too expensive, too clunky, and still doesn’t support casting Licia as well as other cards. This is easily my most unique deck as it runs a number of cards Dana would probably struggle to remember. It’s hard to find cards to change the power level of the deck, up or down. The only tutor is Razaketh, but getting him out really opens up the options.
Karona is my little engine that could. I’ve given her a number of upgrades but I don’t know if she’s ever going to get more powerful, but there is a chance with the amount of new equipment and aura cards they’re coming out with. Still, she’s a Voltron deck and sacrificing is still a problem. Anger of Jubilation can only do so much.
Lastly is Queen Marchesa. When I built her as this hodgepodge monarch/forced combat/stop hitting yourself deck, I immediately locked myself out of pillowfort and goad strategies. The point is to dare people to attack me (since I’m forcing them to attack every turn anyways) and I actually have a potential prize or two. In doing so though, I wanted to punish their insolence with death by a 1000 cuts. The deck reminds me of the movie Saw in a way. I don’t think she’s too powerful, but I’m interested in seeing how people react to her. She doesn’t need any tutors since there’s no real combo aspects that I must have, the cards naturally link in synergy.
I still haven’t found a home for Exquisite Blood. 🙁
Geode Rager in RG omnath makes for some fun games of goading everyone with all the landfall triggers.
I powered down my Yennett deck too. Kinda took a page out of Dana's book, I went with Sphinx Tribal!
I haven’t gone back and removed strong cards from decks, but I’ve completely changed the way I build decks based on decks I’ve built in the past and decks I’ve played against. I absolutely hate playing against every single free counter spell in the game. I hate playing against Elesh Norn as someone who likes mana dorks. I don’t think it’s fun playing against someone who every game tutors up their 1 or 2 card combo. I hate playing against people stealing everything I play. I don’t feel good about myself playing Dranith Magistrate. Because I’ve learned what sucks to play against, I build decks that I can have fun with myself that don’t leave a sour taste for everyone else at the table
I haven't started playing commander yet, but I like a lot on the deckbuilding, but I have a case of this. My OG deck, a Wrath of the Mortasl Event Deck was very good, and then I tunned him, and it became one of the most broken decks on our playgroup, so if we started a One for All, I would be many times be targeted first or second because I deal so much damage so quick.
In the end, because we were only 12 year old people playing a game, most of times we would do a 3x3 and go with it
The only problem is that if we changed one person, than the whole thing is unbalanced and becomes a stomp lol
What I do is limit myself to on theme power cards for each deck. Edgar markov gets vampiric tutor and grim tutor, prosper gets demonic and profane but they both can’t have all 4. Teferi’s protection ? Only if teferi is in the deck. Esper sentinel ? Only in an artifact deck. Revel in riches and pitiless plunderer and dockside can only be a deck with a pirate commander etc. fetchlands? Only if they share all colors they can fetch with my commander. Tons of counter spells like the forces? Well that’s gotta be a wizard commander etc.
This keeps the decks powerful enough to finish games but leaves plenty of slots fot fun theme cards. Being on theme has always been important in every game I’ve ever played and commander is perfect for this expression.
Glad I stumbled on this episode today, I have just begun this process with a couple decks, but was a bit insecure about it. Thank you, I don't feel silly anymore or, in another perspective, condescending.
I've already built and taken apart a Lightpaws deck.
Why? Did she turn out to be too strong?
@@1235q Not necessarily, just VERY linear and "same-y." It's not a deck I'd want to play against. She is pretty strong as well but that's not the problem.
I had a similar experience with Siona, but even Siona has more "play" since she can go wide/combo off.
The small problem with "Lasagne Tier" is that it could propagate a "Garfield Tier" as like Garfield I'm sure some of the players in the Lasagne Tier would like just a little bit more than their fair share of the Lasagne.
Problem is I’m happy taking tutors out of my deck, problem is my opponents won’t, and I’ll just get stomped. I have tried it before, it doesn’t work in almost any playgroup I’ve ever been in
I wouldn’t give up. Because likely others are in the same boat, or they need to rethink a cooperative experience like casual card games.
@@VexylObby Except this isn't a cooperative game. Cooperative games have you playing against the game itself and the group wins or loses. Magic games always have a winner. I've been playing multiplayer MTG since I started this game in 95 and I don't think I've ever played with a group that considered it cooperative. As a group we try to build our decks in a close power level, but play our best lines.
@@rodgerlang884 I said cooperative experience. OBVIOUSLY, the game itself is free for all. But we are all coming together to have a shared enjoyment. C'mon now....
@@rodgerlang884 Cooperatively competitive, perchance? (Or competitively cooperative...)
Toxrill “talks real” slow was the best joke of the episode.
I have a niv-mizzet parun deck that used to have all the possible combos with niv and some other two card combos (curiosity-like effects, lab man/jace, etc..) the deck had some fun lines like enter the infinite + seismic assault/locust god, but my playgroup didnt had a lot of interaction and some of them hated to play against the deck and to "lose out of nowhere".
The deck wasnt strong, the mana base was clunky, ramp was bad (a lot of 3+ mv mana rocks), card draw wasnt good either and i thought that way the deck was balanced. But in the end this just made the wins feel more explosive and out of nowhere because the deck did nothing for 99% of the game then won in a blink.
Not to mention that since the deck was slow i had a lot of board wipes so i could slow down the game until i could combo win.
So the deck had "unfair" lines of play, but was bad in general to try to compensate it and that just made things worse.
In the end i made a overhaul and took all the combos out of the deck, put more single target interactions and made the deck be more spellslinger with a lot of cheap spells. Now the deck have a more consistent play style and have less "highs and lows", i mean: the floor is higher than before, but the ceilling is way closer to the floor, the deck is stronger overall, but do weaker things. And that helped a lot with the feels bad moments. And people started playing more interaction too.
Matt , your reaction to Joey's bad intro joke was amazing! Haha
scavenging ooze and scavenger grounds replacing the rest in piece and anafenza are actual replacements i did in my Tymna/Kamahl deck. i would love a powered down Dauthi Voidwalker as well. but it works so good with tymna so idk.
A podcast about puns that features edh
I do have decks I try to keep 'lower power', but I do have a habit of trying to optimize whatever I'm trying to do, so the key is picking something that I want to do that is appropriate for a certain power level, then optimize to there. I think there is such a thing as a having 2 decks that are both 6's in terms of what they are trying to do, but one is just a better built deck, and will win more in a pod with the other deck, even if both are arguably the same power level. Neither will be fun with a bunch of low power decks, and neither will have much luck vs high power decks, yet you'll find that when fairly matched, one of them is better at being a 6. This is what I mean by optimizing to what you're trying to do, IE pick a combo that is by definition inefficient and you cap your power level, for good or ill.
Tutors are a good way to control power level for a deck. It's very different when you're running a Demonic Tutor to find a wipe or removal effect when you need one, it's very different to run Protean Hulk to find Mikaeus and Ballista to win on the spot, where any tutoring is likely oriented around finding your Hulk and cheating it out somehow to find your win con. It's too neat and tidy to be able to tutor for 1 card to combo off with, something like that starts approaching 8 or 9, where you're probably using a cEDH viable combo, regardless of whether the deck itself is viable in cEDH, and it has very good odds thus vs anything lower power, even a better built lower power deck. I think most Walking Ballista infinite combos are pretty high power potentially, IE can go infinite and win with relatively little support/set up, so these aren't suitable for decks aimed at lower power games, 6 downwards IMHO.
I think it's a fun exercise to try to build an openly weaker Commander, and to try to build it to a power level a bit higher than it is suited to. You have to be more cutthroat than average to find a way to win with a weaker Commander, and people will tolerate something more pushed cards in a deck they know isn't going to be doing anything nuts by definition. My solution so far is to try to keep a low profile and use political effects to encourage people to look elsewhere, lots of rattlesnake stuff, but the deck can also form an alliance if it seems like the best play, and it can do some nasty stuff to an archenemy. It can also be fun to build a deck around trying to 'do a thing' that isn't necessarily win the game, but which will hopefully help you win it anyways, like a Chaos deck, and in a Chaos deck it can be hard to be too powerful, but Chaos can be very skill testing, so still not good for some playgroups I'm sure. Another weird option I'm working on is to make a 'power level' modular deck, which will have a cEDH, High Power and Casual mode, with some cards shared, but with a bunch that change so that the deck is doing something appropriate to it's desired 'power level'. It's a spellslinger deck at low levels, but it becomes a Polymorph build at higher levels, with the High Power having little difficutly switching between spellslinger or Polymorph, and the cEDH is pretty much all in on the nastiest thing I could think of polymorphing out, backed by counters, but this deck will struggle a fair bit if it can't use Proteus Staff, and probably won't win without it. You have very different goals and needs at different levels, so it's a lot of fun to see if you can get the balance right for each, and can find a Commander suitable for the treatment. This might be a good way to run a normally inappropriate for Casual option, since people will know you're using a mode that is lower power (still some trust I guess).
I draw the line at disassembling when I would need to heavily change a deck for some reason (I'd have to be very unhappy with it), and the changes that would make it better are for me not desirable for some reason. There are builds that aren't inspiring to me, and if I felt like I 'had to' run that build to play at the level I wanted a deck to play at, I'd probably choose to take it apart and build something else with the cards.
i actually find myself de optimizing decks now all the time and usually the cards i start with are 1) the tutors, and 2) those staple cards. The cards that everyone says is so good it goes in every deck, like smothering tithe, rhystic study, teferi's protection, those cards. If it's so good that it is always a great card no matter what strategy you are running, then i'm probably taking it out just to make room for more fun and interesting cards
I built my thantis, the warweaver deck in the same way as your karazakar deck. Make everyone attack and protect myself a little from attacks against me
I have one sweaty deck running stuff like tutors, U, Island, Force of Will. Then I have 4 more fun and janky decks that don't run tutors and fetches (aside from rampant growth like cards). Or things like counterspells, mass boardwipes and infinite combos. Being able to play at a lower power is generally (for me at least) way more fun. However it is very nice to have a qsuedo cEDH deck to play against the "try-hard" players.
Really enjoyed this episode in particular!
I tend to play underpowered commanders for certain archetypes. For example I run Slimefoot as my aristocrats commander and Adeliz for my wizards trible deck. I'm still able to run the good stuff but I dont have a super powerful commander to make the deck feel OP.
I actually play Protean Hulk for value as well. It’s in my Meren deck but I don’t run any combos in that deck.
The vampire precon from Ixalan had Butcher of Malakir in it, but I removed it in favor of Urborg Justice. Similar effect that isn't easily repeatable and is targeted.
I'm a new player (started in January) but my play group's been playing for many years. The amount of times I've heard "Well I don't want to play X, but I know runs Y, so I need to" is a bit overwhelming.
I always keep exactly one inf combo in all my decks. I get they're boring, but sometimes you run into situations where the game has been on for so long and you're just not having fun anymore. But noone wants to concede. So having an out to that is fine for me.
My way to de-escalate is to play boros all the time 😂
Speaking of boros, I have 2 experiences to share.
My all time fav deck is my Aurelia the Warleader, which is kinda in that high power range with mana crypt, swords, tutors, and stuff, and I don't think I'm ever going to de-optimize. I did remove the Godo Helm combo, and aggravated assault, in favor of the new swords of heart and home, but that's it. The deck is a blast to play right now and I think it strikes the right balance of power and fun for everyone.
The other boros deck is Winota, which I'm badly try to power down, but the deck just keeps stomping every deck it faces, no matter how hard I try. Because what am I gonna do? Not snowball out of control? As a result, I'm hardly playing this deck anymore, despite my love for this lady. Which sucks
Deoptimising my deck was easy, I just took out that one card that let me scry 1 and draw a card.
Ok, I'm stealing that kraken joke for the next time I play Runo.
Just wanted to latch onto this comment to highlight Matt's reaction at 1:08!
Joe acts as if only only Matt and Dana made dad jokes, but he's not far behind them.
If you take out 7 tutors that double as other cards in your deck you can add in 7 actual functional cards.
+14 variance
I have 2 decks that are built specifically to win. One is definitely a CEDH deck, and the other is around a 8 - 8.5 power level with less fast mana than the CEDH. It doesn't have any infinite combos, but it does have some combos that can kill in one strike and tutors. Otherwise I've tried to limit myself with tutors, combos, and win-cons like Approach or Revel in Riches. Not saying I don't run them at all. I just limit them. Torment is one that I too have removed I think from all of my decks.
Most of my decks are quite terrible but my jori en storm deck never lost a game so I made the cmc 1-2 then 7-9 instead of 1-3 and I've lost a few games since so that's wonderful.
I had a Breya Superfriends deck that was playing several Armageddon effects that I stopped playing not because the MLD was unfun for people in my playgroup (only ever cast if I'd win within one or two turns), but because the turns took sooooo long & that was clearly boring for everyone else at the table.
I also had a Mairsil deck that was just a turbo-combo deck that wasn't interactive at all & either popped off & won the game or didn't win at all. It was a fun deck to build & to goldfish though.
I've never deoptimized a deck intentionally. My closest example is a boros equipment deck (Akiri, fearless voyager) which I feel is in a state that I really enjoy. It also has half a dozen tutors in it, e.g. sfm, fighter class, inventors fair, stonehewer giant, relic seeker, as well as Godo + Helm combo, and a Sunforger. In most tables I play on the deck performs respectably; it doesn't always win, but when it does it's usually turn 9, 10, or 11 with either a good Akroma's Will swing with a wide board, or my commander managed to go voltron, or nobody could interrupt Godo. But there's been this podcast, another podcast I listen to, and one of my opponents who's told me that tutors are against the spirit of the game. I like tutors because I like having options and decisions to make while playing the game, plus the deck simply doesn't function if it doesn't have access to its equipment. I *could* go play a 60 card format, but I don't want to; that's not what everyone else is playing, commander is what my favorite content creators are playing, and I can't legitimately play Argentum Armor in any other format.
I think that one opponent who got snappy at me was just salty because we've played in a pod of 3 a handful of times and I had about a %50 win rate, therefore I must have been doing something unfun. I've had another opponent who characterized my deck a "fair" (even Godo+helm he called a "fair" combo), so it depends on the pod. It's just difficult to align expectations when both of these groups would call themselves somewhere between upgraded pre-cons and sub-cEDH
This kind of shitty humor is right up my back alley
I love my Narset. I basically just built her into a Spellsinger deck using more Cantrips and Combat Tricks instead of just cheating out and chaining a bunch of Extra Turns/Combats. The deck functions well without Narset ever needing to be Casted but of course performs better with her out. Even if you kill my Narset a few times, I’ll just finish you off with a Guttersnipe and an Overloaded Mizzix’s Mastery anyway.
I often like to include like ONE two/three card combo in decks that isn’t a primary win condition, or the thing that I’m tutoring for, but just as insurance for games that are going too long and people are losing steam. Like I have a Carth The Lion super friends deck that already runs Professor Onyx, so I threw chain of smog in the deck as well (with no way to tutor for it or Professor Onyx). Usually if I have both pieces that’s a sign that the game should be ending soon anyway. It’s not a fun or glamorous way to win, but especially with super friends, I find that sometimes the board becomes totally gridlocked, no one knows what to attack, I’m going to win eventually but it’s not going to be quick or fun, and on those occasions it’s nice to have something that’s like “game over.”
I just straight up disassembled my Kinnan deck as a New Years resolution this year.
For me, the one deck I could tune down but don't is my Kaalia of the Vast deck. My very first commander and easily my favorite deck. Does it draw hate, oh heck yes, do I win a lot, not really. But I always have fun with the deck and i enjoy the level where it is. When it works, the deck is amazing and just stomps people. But it doesn't always work 100% of the time. But this is the one deck I will continue to tune up and optimize because of the joy the deck brings me regardless if I win or not
I stopped tuning decks to become more powerful and focused on making them work with themseöves instead. I thought this would make them less powerful, but the result was the opposite. 😱
A big thing that I do is I either have tutors or infinite combos. Never both.
Combos are only a tool for my more durdley decks to actually win
Joey, can you do an Upping the Average episode for Mirri, Matt, and everyone who watch the show on a normal basis?
I just completely overhauled Feather to be more of a spellslinger deck, downgrading the old voltron strategy to plan B. Loved the old version, very nostalgic for me, but even I was feeling done with it, to say nothing of my playgroups' opinions.
My group is very casual, so I put some extra limitations on myself... My Breya has no infinite combos, my Talrand has only combat damage as a wincon, and Ayula...well, playing Bear tribal is a handicap already
I definitely have struggled with power level of my decks. I built a Breya combo deck and spent around 2 weeks building and optimizing it, but I ended up HATING it. It was extremely un-fun to top deck a tutor like Whir of Invention and feeling like “Oh, what I was doing before this was fun, but now I’ll just cast this and win”. It was almost disappointing to see that nothing my opponents or I had done until that point was meaningless. Then my decks got close to “no wincon”
I keep my Breya combo deck around just in case the pod wants to have a "take the gloves off" type of game.
Fellow Breya player here... I made my deck comboless. Just artifact interaction, no loops/combos/repeteable tutors
I've started siding out Curse of Opulence for two reasons.
1) The extra mana is so tempting that it puts someone in the archenemy seat, who usually can't handle the gang-up.
2) Optimally, it goes on the player who won't be playing a lot of blockers instead of the biggest threat on the table, because its easier to divert the archenemy's attention than to take them down.
I'll still play it against obvious archenemy decks (cough korvold cough) but I think I've had my fill of gold.
I tokk Cyclonic Rift out of my Jhoira Weatherlight Captain deck for Mechtitan Core.
I make fun janky theme decks based on the planes for certain commanders, they are by no means strong but very fun, the issue i have is we get a player at my lgs that bring a cedh deck and everyone is scared to poke at them and we all lose to the cedh guy. So ive built a very cruel dimir rogue control deck and on the next week after being slaughtered i bring my brutal deck. Also ive just recently built a vehicle theme deck but it gets slaughtered by the "staple" decks around so ive outfitted it with board wipes that my vehicles can handle, its not gonna be pretty but hey- if the staple decks are gonna be a consistant meta i will flatten the meta by building decks that eat staples.
As someone who's new to magic, how mean of a deck is too mean for your LGS commander night? Is this even something I should worry about if I'm just playing someone random at the same table?
i don’t know man, a mono red deck featuring only permanent spells still gets imperial recruiter, kiki jiki , splinter twin, and their friends that work with them in mono red
I build flavor decks and story means a lot to me. I love torment of hailfire but only in my bolas and liliana themed deck
After going off in every game of the session yesterday, I asked my friends to be honest with me - is Gonti's Aether Heart unfun in Mishra, Eminent One? I'd asked this before when I'd won several back to back games with it, but - despite what their body language said - they'd always insisted that it's fine and that everyone else in the group runs powerful wincons. This time, they finally told me what I'd suspected: it's anticlimactic, it's too easy for my deck to pull off (even without tutors), and it's unfun.
When I got home, this was in my recommended videos. The algorithm knows all! Today, I'm going to take it out and see what happens.
Could you guys do an episode discussing the merits of a commander league style of play with a list of achievements or penalties that score side "points" to encourage or discourage different types of play and which ones you would or wouldn't recommend? Ex1: -2 for tutoring for any card other than a basic land. Ex2: +5 killing someone with commander dmg. Etc...
I shall make my Alibou SCRY tribal deck!
The only deck I run any tutors in is my Siege Rhino clone deck, since the deck doesn’t function without it.
You guys made Joey scream. Hahahaha
My biggest problem with decks has been trying to focus too much on combos within the deck, examples being Sydri and Tayam. There are cool combos you can do with them, but I had more fun playing them without the crazy powerful combos
@matt the 3rd one is a "tee-ga-lee"
Instead of taking tutors out now I only run tutors that are on theme. In my jodah the unifier deck I care about multicolored spells and legendary creatures so I run eladamris call, time of need, and supply/demand but no other tutors except land ramp that all finds multicolored lands
Does Matt play Eternal? That sly joke about Means to an End at 18:39
I wish my brother would take dictate of erebos out of his Prosh deck... Made it real hard for me to play Zurgo Helmsmasher
Violent Tumor? What? :Looks at screen: oh, Vile Entomber. That makes more sense.
I want to challenge the stats on Fellwar Stone and Exotic Orchard. They show up in WAY TOO MANY edh decks. They dont even fix your mana unless you are running 5 colors or are playing in a pod where your opponents are running all your colors. I can see them in 5 color decks maybe those like Atraxa and Berea with 4 colors, but 1-3 color decks and mainly 2 color decks, they are just bad. Same goes for the talismans, I dont like the talismans, id rather have 1 more basic land of each type...especially when im running 2-3 color decks which is my norm. I just think those carda are over played. Myriad Landscape is underplayed, especially in 2-3 color decks, and the same goes for other utility lands like Field of the Dead for the exotic orchard replacement. As for the Fellwar Stone. Fireminds Vessel or Nyx Lotus are both really good options, yes they enter tapped but they fix your mana for your colors. Because ive played temur against an entire pod of Orzhov and found no use for Fellwar Stone or Exotic orchard.
I got into magic specifically for the joy of tweaking and tuning a deck and in my short time playing I've already encountered cards and combos that, while strong, really dont lead to an enjoyable game imo.
Does this mean I have to add to the pregame talk the question "are we playing to win?" I may build some really janky decks, but when I play, I always try to play my best lines. I just never thought the conversation for a game had to include questions about winning. I've also had someone choose to not win a game when they could and I just scoop at that point. I'd rather you end the game and we just shuffle up for the next one than keep playing a game that has no purpose
I would probably take apart a lot more decks than the 2 or 3 I've ever actually taken apart if decks didn't cost money. Sunk cost fallacy, I suppose. I always feel like there's gotta be a way to fix it. It's to a point with some where some will sit idle for months or a year at a time. TBH, at this point, I hope to one day just pass them on, hope they do better for someone else.
I was just thinking about detuning my yuriko and kathril decks. I've already taken my best cards out of both of them for decks I actually play and was thinking about making them legal but without any of my most powerful cards.
How to detune a Yuriko deck: Remove Yuriko
@@zackkelley2940 yeah that's funny. Or just take out all the most efficient counterspells, the tutors, premium mana fixing, and expensive and annoying top deck manipulation.
@@RandomInternetUser999 Was I joking? I don't play Yuriko for the same reason I don't play Urza or Chulane. Some commanders are so over the top you could run em on a shoestring budget and STILL steamroll everything.
@@zackkelley2940 good for you!!!!!
@@RandomInternetUser999 Best bet for detuning a Yuriko deck, past running fewer tutors etc, would probably be to run fewer ninjas and less high cmc stuff.
I have never once felt like I should depower a deck. Weird I guess.
This game is so much more fun without tutors.
I can't be the only person that is listening and not watching that keeps hearing Violent Tumor not Vile Entomber.
I run teen Teysa in baby Teysa, but teen Tesya shouldn't command the same deck as baby Teysa. And mom Teysa is just bad.
That repeat on the elevator joke I'm the intro was a real let down.
I'm sorry but can anyone explain how Matt thi is there's a functional difference between Scavenging Ooze and Rest in Peace? Both equally shut out a graveyard player indefinitely untill they can answer it.
Most people play more creature removal than artifact/enchantment removal in their decks.
Scavenging Ooze is a creature which is MUCH easier to answer and it's an activated ability which requires mana to use. It also TARGETS instead of exiling everything which means even if you can't get rid of it you might be able to work out a deal with whomever's using it so you're not completely shut down.
@@zackkelley2940 Deals or not the Scooze player is not gonna let the grave player take the game if they can stop it. It's effect can just be used in response to removal still crippling a player who's grave is set up.
The difference in functionality is the same as the functional difference between a sniper and a nuke. Sniper is target by target, nuke is scorched earth. If you're playing your own graveyard stuff, you won't use RiP...
@@EJsGameplay Duh? I never said they would.
I'm merely pointing out that Scavenging Ooze is somewhat easier to deal with as it's a creature, and somewhat harder to abuse, as it requires leaving mana open.
Rest in Peace is a type that is harder to deal with and requires no further investment to hose everyone's graveyard.
Instead I just tuned up my friends decks lol
Lasagna tier... yum
The best answer I have for not using good cards is to not use them or discard them knowingly instead of playing them. If I want a powered down deck I just make a weaker version of that deck that is what I do personally. I don't see myself wanting to power down my deck at all personally under any circumstances but that is just me.
I was about to unsubscribe after that "talks really slow" joke, but Matt brought me right back up with the homeless snail!
Always stomp never feel bad for players 🥴
Why is it fair for the person with the most optimised deck to downgrade it instead of the people who have unoptimised decks to grind in order to be able to get better stuff for theirs?
If youre playing the FIFA world cup is it reasonable to bench your best players so you can compete "at the same level" as say an African team who doesnt have as much money to invest into football???
I think we should start normalising optimising decks. If its more fun for other people not to play tutors for example fine, but dont expect me to take away mine just because of your decision.
I play to win and having fun is part of the process but not the ultimate goal.
ｐｒｏｍｏｓｍ 🤩
Imagine being in need of makin your deck weaker. Couldnt be me.