Please do a birthday suit test, would like to know the weight-saving and aero impacts. Expect results and ULTRA HD video to be up by the end of the week! TIA!
The annual "World Nake Bike Ride" was just a few weeks ago. He'll have to wait until next year if he wants to do it without a lot of embarrassment. Then again, if he's in Berkeley, maybe any time is okay? 😅
A decade ago, when I bought my road bike, I did exactly one ride before I went out and bought a jersey and bibshorts. The comfort on the bike transcends any discomfort walking around in public off the bike.
I'm now 47, I already knew this about positioning when I was 16, yeah 31years ago, you should simply notice when training frequently. About clothing, same, at 16yo I was riding in very windy and rainy weather, putting on a rain coat, it flapped in the wind like crazy and my pace dropped over 10km/h! So I did put it underneath my more snug fit shirt, no flapping, back to normal pace. It still amazes me that to this date I even see pro's riding with flapping rain cloth, them not realizing how much energy it costs and that in some cases they literally lose a race because of this. So you all know what to do, train that aero position.
Thanks for another unbiased video. Not sure if the aero suit was given to you, but even if it was, you seemed to do everything you could to hold the same position and make it a true comparison. Gotta admit though - those inverted shots with the drive side on the left freaked me out!
When I started riding 40 years ago, I would wear Lycra half shorts (No bibs were available) when I went out with the "fast group", and I would wear some kind of regular shorts, with pockets, that had a seat pad, when I went out to do a recovery ride, with the slow group. One time nobody showed up for the easy ride, so I jumped in and did the fast ride. When I finished the ride, the inside of my thighs were raw, from the friction, because I was pedaling at 90 to 95 rpm. Back then, wool jerseys and shorts were going away, and everyone rode a six or 7 speed block.
Thanks for this. I just started wearing a winter jacket again and my times have dropped a clear 8-10%.(70+F down to 50F or so) I was owing this up to the temperature drop but I now realize it's the wide long and flappy jacket that's probably the main difference.
I have the same experience. I was looking at my speed, thinking "where did my fitness go?" And then I realized its just that the season of "no PRs" had begun.
Clothing and position for SURE are worth it. arms as flat as you can on the hoods (not drops) will gain so much time. I've doen some tests on day after day same 100km flat route and aero bike (Aeroad) in more aero position was 2km/hr faster and lower avg HR and basically same avg power (5w less on Aeroad) than my climbing bike (02 VAM) in aero position, but geo means i can't be as aero.
Should do another video testing full leg length bib tights vs the regular length ones along with shoe covers vs no shoe covers. On a recent chilly ride I felt like I going faster then usual wearing an aero jacket, full tights, and shoe covers compared to just regular kit and exposed hairy legs.
Fabric is faster than skin, part of the reason why the UCI requires a certain amount of skin be exposed otherwise the entire pro peloton would be in head to toe speed suits with as little exposed skin as possible. The same thing happened in swimming, in the water fabric is also faster than skin and elite level swimmers started wearing full body suits around the turn of the millenium, and the sanctioning body that is in charge of swimming banned it and mandated that mens swimmers wear only the traditional speedo and womens swimmers can only wear a normal one piece swimsuit.
I've got that Rapha jersey and i also commute in t shirt and shorts. This video pretty much confirms my finding as well in terms of approximate speed difference
Great video. I'd love to see the 2nd cheapest upgrade. Some bog standard tyres and butyl tubes versus some Continental GP5000 with latex, tpu or tubeless.
I've heard aero socks are legitimately a good upgrade, especially for what they cost. It's something like 10-15w and they're usually under $30USD A super expensive set of carbon aero bars probably give you less gains for a LOT more money haha
@@mrvwbug4423 . Until I see independent testing I'd call BS on aero socks being any more than 1 or 2 watts max. I've seen numbers as high as 15W at 40kph but the only way I could see that happening is if the rider sat upright wearing normal socks and tucked in wearing aero ones. There just isn't the watts in drag available for about 500mm covering both calves to have x watts normally and x-15 watts when changing socks.
I realize it was kind of a bonus/last minute extra, so I understand why you didn't do the comparison - but since you seem to be embracing this kind of cost-benefit ratio test video format, I'd love to see a repeated 4 way comparison between regular lycra and the skin suit in both relaxed & aggressive position. Seems like that second 45s improvement was mostly from the change in position not the skin suit but would be cool to have more investigation
When i moved to lycra, my comfort went WAY up. So i rode faster, naturally. Secondly, the flapping. It literally felt like the flapping was adding substantial drag. And i started wearing it while being about 260lbs. Now im 225, dont feel like i look like a dork at all. I just want to blend performance with cost.
It's even the same in MTB, proper MTB gear is way more comfortable than regular clothes or even hiking clothes. And you can still wear a chamois under MTB shorts or pants. Of course MTB gear has clearance for knee and elbow pads and some jerseys can even clear a chest protector if you want.
But you didn't do the extra lap with the normal lycra and the shorts. In theory, given the previous results, you would have gotten the same results with the bib and the suit. The gains (or most of them... would've been interesting to know how many) came from the position, not the suit. However, you seem to say that the suit is what gives you the savings.
Skinsuit and jersey gave the same results at this speed. Getting aero got 5% faster in the skinsuit. I didn’t have time to test it but it’s reasonable to assume that getting aero in the jersey would produce a similar result. Possibly not quite as fast bc the Skinsuit starts to shine at higher speeds. Interesting test would be to go back and do it again at 350 watts jersey vs skinsuit
I have the castelli speedsuit and that thing is as comfy as they come. Has a front zipper so it’s not inconvenient for a bio break. There is no downside to it beside people joking youre a try hard at the starting line.
I'm wondering if that skin suit wasn't tight enough on you. I saw a good bit of bunched of material around your mid section. Maybe if it was the next size down it would perform better.
Honestly, that Gardyn Home Kit is cheaper than I thought it was going to be. $800 for a small indoor hydroponic system isn't bad. I'll ask my wife what she thinks.
If you really don't like the lycra look, you can do what a lot of MTBers do, wear a chamois under a pair of regular shorts. You'll even see some downhill racers wear a chamois under their armored pants.
I find that for speed GPS is OK, but not perfect - I always rely on speed sensors. But for elevation, GPS without solid mapping and position correction is absolute trash - i.e. you need something like Garmin Edge with maps or a Garmin watch with maps (maps is key, since some watches don't have built in maps) to be able to have valid data.
I appreciate these tests and your summary of other tests. Small changes can make a big difference. Spending lots of money most of the time makes a small difference for most of us.
I really enjoy these comparison videos but it's important to point out the *flawed* 10% faster takeaway! If the argument is that positioning is important (which it is!), you can only compare your skin suit times which gives you a 4.9% faster time. Comparing the upright + shorts and t-shirt time with the aero + skin suit time is misleading.
Good vid. Why not ride an aero bike aka rim brakes. I was riding my sworks sl8 today in windy conditions and was laughing at how NON aero it is as the wind kept catching the extra spokes, rotor, fat tubes etc.
If anyone is considering a new skinsuit, the Rule 28 Road Suit 2.0 or the Neo Suit are the best around. Castelli makes a tighter fitting suit if you want tighter, but the highest end Castelli skinsuit gives you a painful camel toe when standing so I prefer the Rule 28 skinsuit!
I prefer the single layer skin tight comfort of a skinsuit even for just regular training. Also, for really hot summer rides, the bib and jersey is hotter than a skinsuit since the waist material of the bib and shoulder straps makes for as there is additional material. The skinsuit wicks the sweat away faster.
I still use skinsuits for crits for reasons mentioned above and also ones like rule 28 shine at higher speeds. I’d like to retest this at higher speeds to see what the actual gains are.
Yeah, but...Bigham said that Ineos didn't find much advantage of a skinsuit over jersey and knicks. GCN mentioned in another video that Ineos wear better-fitting jerseys and knicks than us amateurs, so it's possible for us to get a bigger improvement from a skinsuit than them.
@@robertlight2370I wouldn't be surprised if GCN were paid to say that to get people to buy things. They have enough sponsors. Ineos are also wearing custom made skin suits, so they're still comparing apples to apples (top tier kit to top tier kit)
When I commute to the city I usually use casual clothing, and I always find myself complaining either about them being really uncomfortable to ride with or about them flapping in the wind 😂
i suspect most of the savings comes from changing your t shirt to a form-fitting cycling jersey. that's the main thing hitting the wind and flapping around.
Depends on the frame. If you're talking something like a dropper cable, and your brakes/shifter are internal, then you might be able to snake a dropper cable around your BB and into the seat tube. My thought is why would you want to do that otherwise, external cable routing is way easier to service.
Not really an upgrade. Most of us roadies are already in form fitting lycra. However, now we know not to waste our money on a skinsuit unless we are competing in a velodrome.
So first thing about conducting non-biased studies is not to make statements (skinsuits are faster than regular kit at faster speeds) that are not based on presented data. Of course this doesn't take into effect sitting in a pack of cyclists.
@NorCalCycling I can't recall numbers from a tire upgrade video you may or may not have done, it's got to be close to the 5% from shorts and jersey, or additional 5% from free position change. (And I did watch the whole thing, but this is the internet, so I chose exaggeration and hyperbole for my comment)
I mean, clothing that is made for the sport is made out of lycra. Why would anyone judge me for wearing the proper attire for the sport? It's like saying that football players should be wearing floppy fleece jogging pants.
What I don't understand Jeff is why does Phil always wear his speed suit going up mountains. From your test, he could get the same time with a normal setup. I'm starting to think Phil just likes his one piece speed suit. I just hope we don't see you racing in one though.
Please do a birthday suit test, would like to know the weight-saving and aero impacts. Expect results and ULTRA HD video to be up by the end of the week! TIA!
On it 🤪
The annual "World Nake Bike Ride" was just a few weeks ago. He'll have to wait until next year if he wants to do it without a lot of embarrassment. Then again, if he's in Berkeley, maybe any time is okay? 😅
A decade ago, when I bought my road bike, I did exactly one ride before I went out and bought a jersey and bibshorts. The comfort on the bike transcends any discomfort walking around in public off the bike.
Jersey imo is a nice to have thing that I could live without.
But padded bike shorts, man, once I wore it, I could never go back.
I'm now 47, I already knew this about positioning when I was 16, yeah 31years ago, you should simply notice when training frequently.
About clothing, same, at 16yo I was riding in very windy and rainy weather, putting on a rain coat, it flapped in the wind like crazy and my pace dropped over 10km/h! So I did put it underneath my more snug fit shirt, no flapping, back to normal pace.
It still amazes me that to this date I even see pro's riding with flapping rain cloth, them not realizing how much energy it costs and that in some cases they literally lose a race because of this.
So you all know what to do, train that aero position.
baby u smart
Thanks for another unbiased video. Not sure if the aero suit was given to you, but even if it was, you seemed to do everything you could to hold the same position and make it a true comparison. Gotta admit though - those inverted shots with the drive side on the left freaked me out!
When I started riding 40 years ago, I would wear Lycra half shorts (No bibs were available) when I went out with the "fast group", and I would wear some kind of regular shorts, with pockets, that had a seat pad, when I went out to do a recovery ride, with the slow group. One time nobody showed up for the easy ride, so I jumped in and did the fast ride. When I finished the ride, the inside of my thighs were raw, from the friction, because I was pedaling at 90 to 95 rpm.
Back then, wool jerseys and shorts were going away, and everyone rode a six or 7 speed block.
Thanks for this. I just started wearing a winter jacket again and my times have dropped a clear 8-10%.(70+F down to 50F or so) I was owing this up to the temperature drop but I now realize it's the wide long and flappy jacket that's probably the main difference.
Air pressure is often overlooked.
I have the same experience. I was looking at my speed, thinking "where did my fitness go?" And then I realized its just that the season of "no PRs" had begun.
Wait wait wait, 50F is "winter" jacket? - says a Wisconsinite....😊
Clothing and position for SURE are worth it. arms as flat as you can on the hoods (not drops) will gain so much time. I've doen some tests on day after day same 100km flat route and aero bike (Aeroad) in more aero position was 2km/hr faster and lower avg HR and basically same avg power (5w less on Aeroad) than my climbing bike (02 VAM) in aero position, but geo means i can't be as aero.
Should do another video testing full leg length bib tights vs the regular length ones along with shoe covers vs no shoe covers. On a recent chilly ride I felt like I going faster then usual wearing an aero jacket, full tights, and shoe covers compared to just regular kit and exposed hairy legs.
You probably rode faster because you wanted to get home sooner
@@santiagobenites No... I have power meter data as well and it was an out and back ride for fun
Fabric is faster than skin, part of the reason why the UCI requires a certain amount of skin be exposed otherwise the entire pro peloton would be in head to toe speed suits with as little exposed skin as possible. The same thing happened in swimming, in the water fabric is also faster than skin and elite level swimmers started wearing full body suits around the turn of the millenium, and the sanctioning body that is in charge of swimming banned it and mandated that mens swimmers wear only the traditional speedo and womens swimmers can only wear a normal one piece swimsuit.
I've got that Rapha jersey and i also commute in t shirt and shorts. This video pretty much confirms my finding as well in terms of approximate speed difference
Great video. I'd love to see the 2nd cheapest upgrade. Some bog standard tyres and butyl tubes versus some Continental GP5000 with latex, tpu or tubeless.
You'd probably save north of 30W just by switching to lycra and good tyre/tube combo
I've heard aero socks are legitimately a good upgrade, especially for what they cost. It's something like 10-15w and they're usually under $30USD A super expensive set of carbon aero bars probably give you less gains for a LOT more money haha
@@mrvwbug4423 . Until I see independent testing I'd call BS on aero socks being any more than 1 or 2 watts max. I've seen numbers as high as 15W at 40kph but the only way I could see that happening is if the rider sat upright wearing normal socks and tucked in wearing aero ones. There just isn't the watts in drag available for about 500mm covering both calves to have x watts normally and x-15 watts when changing socks.
Low rolling resistance tyres are as important as lycra, imho.
I realize it was kind of a bonus/last minute extra, so I understand why you didn't do the comparison - but since you seem to be embracing this kind of cost-benefit ratio test video format, I'd love to see a repeated 4 way comparison between regular lycra and the skin suit in both relaxed & aggressive position. Seems like that second 45s improvement was mostly from the change in position not the skin suit but would be cool to have more investigation
it was from the position, i kept the same clothing and found another 45s savings by changing my position only.
Really enjoy these science videos, keep them up!
When i moved to lycra, my comfort went WAY up. So i rode faster, naturally.
Secondly, the flapping. It literally felt like the flapping was adding substantial drag. And i started wearing it while being about 260lbs.
Now im 225, dont feel like i look like a dork at all. I just want to blend performance with cost.
It's even the same in MTB, proper MTB gear is way more comfortable than regular clothes or even hiking clothes. And you can still wear a chamois under MTB shorts or pants. Of course MTB gear has clearance for knee and elbow pads and some jerseys can even clear a chest protector if you want.
But you didn't do the extra lap with the normal lycra and the shorts. In theory, given the previous results, you would have gotten the same results with the bib and the suit. The gains (or most of them... would've been interesting to know how many) came from the position, not the suit. However, you seem to say that the suit is what gives you the savings.
Skinsuit and jersey gave the same results at this speed. Getting aero got 5% faster in the skinsuit. I didn’t have time to test it but it’s reasonable to assume that getting aero in the jersey would produce a similar result. Possibly not quite as fast bc the Skinsuit starts to shine at higher speeds. Interesting test would be to go back and do it again at 350 watts jersey vs skinsuit
Agreed 100% @@NorCalCycling Thanks for replying!
I have the castelli speedsuit and that thing is as comfy as they come. Has a front zipper so it’s not inconvenient for a bio break. There is no downside to it beside people joking youre a try hard at the starting line.
Could you do a test but the other way around? So you keep the speed the same and look what the power numbers say afterwards
Great suggestion! I'm planning on doing this next time i test on a flatter course - it's much easier to keep average speed on a flatter course.
sometimes i wear a t shirt simply to show other riders that i can drop you even with your 10k bike and aero position/clothing. It satisfying ngl
Passive aggressive for the win! Also, you've got a pass and can blame Hanes when you get passed by a serious cyclist. A Win-Win proposition.
great vid.
Was really surprised to see the AeroSuit being as fast as the normal riding gear ( LycraLove
I'm wondering if that skin suit wasn't tight enough on you. I saw a good bit of bunched of material around your mid section. Maybe if it was the next size down it would perform better.
The first add for a product that I want to purchase and use
i'm now a couple more weeks from when this was shot, and enjoying the harvest!!
Shouts out Jeff! Keep em coming!
Honestly, that Gardyn Home Kit is cheaper than I thought it was going to be. $800 for a small indoor hydroponic system isn't bad. I'll ask my wife what she thinks.
If you really don't like the lycra look, you can do what a lot of MTBers do, wear a chamois under a pair of regular shorts. You'll even see some downhill racers wear a chamois under their armored pants.
Always love these!
Do you like getting your speed data from GPS or a sensor? If just GPS are you satisfied with it?
I find that for speed GPS is OK, but not perfect - I always rely on speed sensors. But for elevation, GPS without solid mapping and position correction is absolute trash - i.e. you need something like Garmin Edge with maps or a Garmin watch with maps (maps is key, since some watches don't have built in maps) to be able to have valid data.
I appreciate these tests and your summary of other tests. Small changes can make a big difference. Spending lots of money most of the time makes a small difference for most of us.
Great test Jeff. Can you redo a aero test in your normal kit?
How did Gardyn find you or you find them? Pretty funny ad read lol.
I really enjoy these comparison videos but it's important to point out the *flawed* 10% faster takeaway! If the argument is that positioning is important (which it is!), you can only compare your skin suit times which gives you a 4.9% faster time. Comparing the upright + shorts and t-shirt time with the aero + skin suit time is misleading.
Aero clothes are 5% faster, aero position a further 5% faster, so you can save 10% by doing both.
Good vid. Why not ride an aero bike aka rim brakes.
I was riding my sworks sl8 today in windy conditions and was laughing at how NON aero it is as the wind kept catching the extra spokes, rotor, fat tubes etc.
🤦♂️
Aerobars are the biggest upgrade for 40 bucks. Not quite legal in most races BUT for long distance riding its great.
you're talking about the clamp on TT extensions right?
If anyone is considering a new skinsuit, the Rule 28 Road Suit 2.0 or the Neo Suit are the best around. Castelli makes a tighter fitting suit if you want tighter, but the highest end Castelli skinsuit gives you a painful camel toe when standing so I prefer the Rule 28 skinsuit!
Thanks for your feedback!
So even for crits, skinsuit doesn't make sense unless you plan on going solo (maybe, probably not?)
I prefer the single layer skin tight comfort of a skinsuit even for just regular training. Also, for really hot summer rides, the bib and jersey is hotter than a skinsuit since the waist material of the bib and shoulder straps makes for as there is additional material. The skinsuit wicks the sweat away faster.
I still use skinsuits for crits for reasons mentioned above and also ones like rule 28 shine at higher speeds. I’d like to retest this at higher speeds to see what the actual gains are.
Is size too large jersey closer to T shirt or to normal well fitting clothes?
Not as bad as a T-shirt, but no better than well-fitting clothes. This is under the assumption you're wearing one size too large.
Still waiting on the aero NorCal Cycling jersey to pop up on the merch site. ;)
And Dan Bighma has previously spoken about this with Oliver Bridgewood and he said that it wasn't much of a difference.
Yeah, but...Bigham said that Ineos didn't find much advantage of a skinsuit over jersey and knicks. GCN mentioned in another video that Ineos wear better-fitting jerseys and knicks than us amateurs, so it's possible for us to get a bigger improvement from a skinsuit than them.
@@robertlight2370I wouldn't be surprised if GCN were paid to say that to get people to buy things. They have enough sponsors. Ineos are also wearing custom made skin suits, so they're still comparing apples to apples (top tier kit to top tier kit)
No chamois? Plenty of gravel/MTN shorts with one 🙂
Hell, most DH and Enduro racers still wear a chamois under their armored gear.
Does facial hair cause more aero drag?
When I commute to the city I usually use casual clothing, and I always find myself complaining either about them being really uncomfortable to ride with or about them flapping in the wind 😂
When I ride in the city, I can't count the number of commuting cyclists wearing casual clothing that clearly acts as a parachute. 😅
How abt cycling shorts and a t-shirt? How much better is that over normal shorts?
i suspect most of the savings comes from changing your t shirt to a form-fitting cycling jersey. that's the main thing hitting the wind and flapping around.
Is in possible to maka a non internal cable into internal cable
For safety reasons, it's impossible, as the frameset is never designed for integrated internal routing.
Depends on the frame. If you're talking something like a dropper cable, and your brakes/shifter are internal, then you might be able to snake a dropper cable around your BB and into the seat tube. My thought is why would you want to do that otherwise, external cable routing is way easier to service.
@@mrvwbug4423 It's probably a road cyclist thing, many of them care about aesthetics a lot. Serviceability is one of the last things on their mind.
The man bra is ridiculous
It beats bleeding nipples. Ask any even semi-serious marathon runner about that.
Not really an upgrade. Most of us roadies are already in form fitting lycra. However, now we know not to waste our money on a skinsuit unless we are competing in a velodrome.
Why do you have the Scott Foil listed as "gear you used" when you're clearly riding the Soloist?
So first thing about conducting non-biased studies is not to make statements (skinsuits are faster than regular kit at faster speeds) that are not based on presented data. Of course this doesn't take into effect sitting in a pack of cyclists.
skip to @2:15 , u r welcome
Where’s the Scott foil
The cheapest upgrade is definitely riding naked, you save the dollars and save the watts. BIG BIG WIN-WIN 🙃
That's a lot of sunscreen though, that gets kinda expensive haha
Yeah, kale....
Cheapest upgrade is Watts. Stay Hard!
The "big" chainring looks so small.
I'm 20sec in, and the answer is "no", i already know tires are the cheapest significant upgrade you can make.
then you should watch more than 20s before making any conclusions 🤣
@NorCalCycling I can't recall numbers from a tire upgrade video you may or may not have done, it's got to be close to the 5% from shorts and jersey, or additional 5% from free position change. (And I did watch the whole thing, but this is the internet, so I chose exaggeration and hyperbole for my comment)
Imagine the additional gains from shaving these hairy legs 7:10 😅
Why do you look like a young Richard Hammond? Also, great video!
I mean, clothing that is made for the sport is made out of lycra. Why would anyone judge me for wearing the proper attire for the sport?
It's like saying that football players should be wearing floppy fleece jogging pants.
What I don't understand Jeff is why does Phil always wear his speed suit going up mountains. From your test, he could get the same time with a normal setup. I'm starting to think Phil just likes his one piece speed suit. I just hope we don't see you racing in one though.
How many seconds you loose because of the brush behind your nose? 😜
The real test is which outfit looks the least ridicules standing in line to get a coffee and some cookies.
Well as an MTBer, I don't tap dance quite as much off the bike haha. Flat sole MTB clipless shoes are WAY easier to walk in.
I don't know. There are those lucky people who unlike me, look great in lycra :(
Look like a dork in a tshirt on a bike like that
Sad that a 300 jersey is considered cheap tho
Aren't better innertubes cheaper?
lowering your head and narrowing your shoulders is free!
@@NorCalCycling I never said it wasn't. I was commenting on your clickbaity tittle.
Hey can I get a plug for my drug business? You know what, I'll send you a kilo!
Can you say off season content struggle already!!!
I am up to my eyeballs in race footage lol I love doing these too
Once you commit to being a cyclist, you look more silly to wear shorts and a t shirt than a normal cycling kit
Once of these days I want to borrow somebody's road bike and just ride around in downhill MTB kit with full face and goggles just for the lols haha.
First
Relieved to know I don't need to toss all my shorts and jerseys out.