Once you have been shot at with bodkin arrow heads, you will know if your mail was riveted, imbuing a little spell on every ring, or if it was just holding itself together by rust and tradition. But the seller will not hear complaints from you in either case, so that is fine.
Maybe that's from where the expression derives? Riveting the mail would require extendes periods of focus. Makes sense. If anyone knows if this is true, respond, thx.
@@AviDragonLadynot with powerful thrusts like from say, an arrow loosed from a war bow, or especially a couched lance. Those are going straight through any amount of butted chain mail and padding underneath.
Maybe a small addition: Riveted mail was also used in the Arabic area, there are also some very beautiful shirts of riveted mail with religious inscriptions on every single ring from Iran which is quite insane. Adam Savage showed such an example in one of his videos at the Metropolitan Museum of Arts.
That was Mughal, not Arabic. I am not aware of any Arabic mail (or, indeed, any other example Mughal or otherwise) in which each ring contains an inscription.
@@spades9681 Yeah, you're half-right, but I'm not refering to the Mughal one in the "Why This Chainmail Shirt is Fascinating" video, it's from "Adam Savage Learns How Real Chain Mail Is Restored". According to the curator it's from 15th or 16th century Iran and there are multiple of these shirts, probably all from the same workshop. So yeah, not Arabic, just Islamic.
@@Kuhmuhnistische_Partei Ah, so there are. A good few surviving examples, actually, which makes one wonder how many inscribed shirts have existed that didn’t survive, acknowledging that such exquisite items are much more likely to.
My dear friend Walter passed away earlier this year. He was crazy enough to make his own butted chain mail. I have one of the gloves right here ❤. I miss you Walter...
@fulana_de_tal he really was. There's actually a video on UA-cam where he "stars" in a music video he made with friends forever ago. It's has to be over 20 years ago. It's hilariously zero budget, but I grin ear to ear every time I see it. 😆😂🥹🥺. I'll see if I can find it.
@fulana_de_tal got it! He's the guy with the beard (not the merlin guy 😆) he first appears 7 seconds in, walking through the door. Then he's pretty much in the rest of the music video. ua-cam.com/video/mMS6MnAe15U/v-deo.html
You could also talk about different patterns of how the rings are linked together. I don't know the details but I have seen it discussed. Basically it has to do with how many neighboring rings each ring is linked with. More rings = better protection, but it's heavier and more expensive.
Many of the european patterns have several variations 4-in-1 is the most common, and basically only pattern you'll see historically in europe and japan, but japan actually had their own unique 4-in-1 pattern that is made somewhat differently. Put simply, 4 in 1 has one ring connected to 4 others, say 2 above, 2 below. European 6-in-1 is similar, but say 3 above, 3 below. On a contrary way of doing it, you might have 8-in-2, which is the same as 4-in-1, but has two rings where 4-in-1 has one ring. this 8-in-2 is sometimes done for cosplay or larp armor, and is referred to as "King's Maille". I personally am making a full chainmaille shirt out of the next tier up, 12-in-3, or Queen's Maille, which, as far as im aware, nobody has made anything ever using Queen's Maille, let alone a full shirt, so I intend to be the first ever to do so!
A German mail maker who also does research like looking at museum pieces and stuff talked about it and he said that basically all European mail for like 2000 years was 4-in-1 with extremely few exceptions. And most of those exceptions are not for a whole mail shirt, but just for specific parts, mostly the part around the neck, because it was supposed to be quite stiff like the neck parts of some suits so it stands up. But even there he only knew 2 out of 60 examples for 6-in-1, it was mostly done by using thicker rings in a normal 4-in-1 pattern.
Others have talked about the different patterns, and you mentioned the increase in weigh as denser patterns are used (I'd note that people usually underestimate how much extra weight is added). One other note is that denser patterns have far less "give" to them before they start entering that state where they act as a single piece rather than individual rings, which gives said dense patterns far less of a range of motion. I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised to find pieces where the density of the pattern maps well to where the wearer would need more mobility, ie. around big joints. One might even find riveted or butted mail depending on the level of protection required for a given body-part, but, again, that's just speculation on my part. Could be that another factor like the process of manufacture would make that kind of customization too labour-intensive.
The uniformity is impressive, but is more understandable when you realize how the rings were usually made. One method of manufacture involved taking a rounded dowel and wrapping a wire around it tightly along its length until you cut the rings free up one side, like using scissors to remove a spiral binding on a notebook. This technique had the advantage of producing rings that were already "open" and ready to be assembled, rather than having to open each ring manually, insert it into the pattern, and then close it again. Uniformity of rings tends to lead to uniformity of pattern, in the same way that building with standardized Legos makes it easy to produce and replicate an exact structure.
What is amazing to me is when you compare it to clothing in those times. When it was difficult and expensive to make fabric clothes let alone a suit of chainmail. My blacksmith's wife is a seamstress and helps with the design... lol
From a reenacting point of view, it can sometimes be safer to use riveted mail because butted mail can sometimes get caught on clothes and hair and stuff
From a real-life point of view, it can sometimes be safer to use riveted mail because butted mail can sometimes get caught on swords and spears and deadly weapons and stuff :-O I just mean it was stronger not invulnerable ;-) Have known someone to LARP?
From my experience riveted is actually worse than butted. Butted usually forms a pretty smooth surface as long as the ends of the rings are decently rounded and close together. Rivets on the other hand always stick out. And due to the overlapping metal around the rivets you have thousands of little shears, that will catch every hair or loose strand that they get in touch with.
Yoooo So riveted mail with absolutely consume your hair if exposed to it. Buttet mail you can get it out without breaking your hair...Buttet mail? Best break out the scissors. My scalp still hurts thinking about it XD
@@guinevereskylark7318there’s another reason to wear a good padded coif under your mail. It’s not just getting hit by a mace that thing’s protecting you from
As someone who makes maille, thank you for actually getting it correct! riveted flat rings are the most accurate historically, whether it was the '1' of the '4-in-1', or all the rings, often the whole ring was flattened instead of just the overlap where a hole would be drifted and riveted.
There are literally dozens of channels already doing such tests. Riveted mail always wins, unless you use bodkin points with high draw weight bows (not necessarily longbows, but it helps).
Butted mail doesn’t make great armor an axe, thrusting weapons or arrows will all most likely split rings and pierce through, though they’re decent for gauntlet lining cause how often do you get stabbed in the palm of the hand, but it’ll still protect you from most slashes so you can mordhau with butted mail gauntlets, riveted mail will stop most things other than like a lance or a crossbow neither will stop the blunt force though
How practical is a chainmail shirt as something I could just wear on a daily basis? What's the pro tips for being a chainmail wearer? Asking for a friend who may or may not go by the name me, myself, and/or I EDIT: thanks for all the great replies! I looked it up after this and it also seems like stainless steel would be the best material, rust tends to rub off and discolor other clothes while aluminum is too brittle and is only really good for cosplays
And Aye? ;) ... A Good belt is the key. You want to split the weight between your shoulder and hips so a good solid chunky belt take a good portion of the weight off your shoulder and put it on your hips. Those wide Heroic belly belts you see larpers wear are not just for fashion (though with leather armour... nah, that's just fashion!). You want something padded under it, often called a Gambeson. You will sweat a lot so you likely want 3 Gambesons, one to wear, one in the wash, one still drying from last week! Chain and long hair do NOT get on. Otherwise, ever worn a really heavy thick woollen greatcoat. Its like walking about wearing one of those. My Qualifications? 20 or so years a battle event larper! (Curious pastimes etc)
@@WinterWitch01 Not really, more 3 stone there abouts. You could walk about it all day. Though if you put it in a bag and drop the bag on your foot its going to hurt (not that I've done that.. OK I have so actually done that!).
I never would have known Nigerians were cable of such “technology” at the time. Based on what you get in schools you would have thought they were running around with rags and clubs. Thanks for the insight!
Colonialism has done big damages to the image the occident has of African history. There were a lot of rich kingdoms there, with plenty of armies. The only thing they lacked in the 19th century was enough fire weapons to properly fight back against the French, Great Britain, etc. It is very interesting to learn about the continent history :).
Oh yeah, mail armour absolutely was used in the northern half of Africa (not so much in southern Africa and the rainforest areas). They used many similar forms of armour to the European and Islamic Middle Ages and Early Modern Period. In the Sahel region especially there were African knights on horseback with chain mail covering both horse and rider and they fought with laces, swords and shields. Various forms of quilted fabric armour were also used (like Gambeson in Europe). The Northern half of Africa (including North, West and East Africa) were at about the same technological level as the Middle East for most of the last few centuries before colonialism. It wasn't really until after 1700 that the European technological lead became so dominant that they outpaced everyone else, which led to conquests. From the late 1400s, up to the end of the 19th century, African kingdoms and empires were very much keen to trade for European made guns (muskets, cannons and gunpowder). Of course the main thing they sold in exchange were slaves. But many of these kingdoms had well organised armies with plenty of gunpowder, but also lots of traditional weaponry (they also forged their own cannons, etc). For the whole "Age of Exploration" the Europeans didn't much attempt to attack them, because it would have been too difficult. But by the late 19th century, European military firepower technology had advanced so much that all previous opposition technologies in Africa were made obsolete. And so Africa fell to accurate, repeating rifles and machineguns.
It seems many countries in Africa endure the same issues Eastern European countries have where the lack of stable crop growing conditions and the intense weather made it harder to have stable crop yields each year which made it hard for enough people to focus full time on jobs other than farming in order to help advance society. Also it seems there's a huge difference between the technology levels across Africa even across different regions. Like even though the people in Nigeria had chainmail and swords the Zulu people were still just using spears against British redcoats during the 18th century.
@@SurprisinglyDeepDude! did you seriously just call the Zulu Assegai "just a spear"? 🤔 you realize the British did lose their first encounters in the Anglo-Zulu wars? 👀 Also, no, the Zulus used guns as well as assegais in those encounters. most African nations had access to guns by then. just take the L dude. Africans were not backward, they were simply conquered by the use of machine gun tech, and by the determination/desperation of the European invading forces
@SporeMurph @SurprisinglyDeep I don't think historians really talk about "technology levels" these days, so it might be better to say "industrialization".
Your enthusiasm for chain mail makes me smile. Certainly butted mail is easier to make, but it is certainly easier to repair. I am almost certain I misspelled the word mail. Please feel to straighten me out on that.
was there a version that combined them, like for points that had more stress were riveted together (like at the armpit or up top where the weight of the loops below would drag it down) and the rest was butted?
The primary benefit of the strength isn't so much in normal wearing, but when somebody is trying to shove something through your armor. A riveted ring isn't going to open easily, and you're far more likely to live.
I just imagine some blacksmith making riveted chainmail armor sitting in a rocking chair like a granny "my lord I've finished nitting thy metal sweater" lol
Getting asked a question about chain mail and casually holding two pieces into the camera like it's the most normal and common thing to have that at home. That's quite funny to me.
Fyi for anyone interested chainmail is fairly easy to make, just a little time consuming. All you need is two pairs of pliers, a pair of vice grips, some tin snips, a steel rod and metal wire. There are guides woth pictures online, but basically what you do is use the vice grips to secure the wire to the metal rod, then you twist it slowly to make a long coil that looks like a spring. Once it is as long as you want it release the vice grips, remove the coil from the rod, then use the tin snips to cut it into individual rings. Then you can weave the rings together in either a 4 in 1, 6 in 1, or for the truly insane an 8 in one pattern. I have made my own chainmail shirt out of 14 gage steel wire, in a 6 in one pattern. Its fairly aimply to do, but it did take me several months of working at it for 30 mins to an hour a day. The process is a lot faster if you can make a lathe or buy oremade rings.
It's amazing how people actually took the extra time to rivet each and every one of those loops to make protective armor in the middle ages. Wonder if multiple blacksmiths worked on a mail suit in a day and how long it usually took because I'm sure it took a LONG time to make a full mail tunic that way.
i thought mail was french for chain until i decided to fact check before commenting, turns out i learnt more from this video than you may have expected anyone too.
My teenaged son made a full “Butted” Kings Link Chain shirt during COVID shutdown!! He’s grown considerably since then… so just this week he resized it! His next project is riveted! He has since started blacksmithing!! I’m growing a Viking!
The third kind is what's only just now being made nowadays. Welded mail and it's most commonly seen with and used by shark diving tours in places like the modern Carrabian. Like riveted mail, a worker sat at a workbench, knitting the rings together, but whereas traditional mail like the riveted and butted examples used either nearly pure elemental iron or medieval steel, welded mail either uses either stainless steel or titanium and designed to use lessons learned on medieval battlefields to blunt and deflect bites from sharks.
I got to be real, if some conservative white men said what this girl said it could be construed is punching down and racist, as it speaks ill of minority groups' chainmail linking ability while punching up white european forged links
"Alright, Blacksmith. I want my mail shirt, once it's done - you're coming with me on the Crusade." "Right, yes. It'll be done in... Who knows? I've got so many... rivets to rivet. Yes. Riveted mail, all the rage."
@@mrmediocre1532 "Sorry boss, looks like I can't go to war with you. I've got to get my entire extended family to spend five years riveting this shirt."
I learned how to make chain mail when I took a jewellery making course several years ago. It’s amazing how creative you can be with a bit of knowledge! Made a “vest” for my cat. She didn’t like wearing it though it was alarmingly cute in her! 🇨🇦🖖🏻🇨🇦
I’d make a chain mail “loom” for this that did all the bigger flat pieces so I could only do the joining by hand. Something like a coin sorter shaker tray to line up all the rings then a line stamper that would use screw pressure to rivet a whole line at once. The stamper would also eject and alternately offset the line to right or left to align the next row. Dump a big bag of rings, shake, stamp, shake, stamp. Automation.
Practically speaking, it's really a matter of whether you want to incorporate extra metal in your chainmail NOW with rivets or LATER with new rings as they pop off.
When I lived in CA, I enjoyed camping with the people who wore medieval clothes and swatted each other with rattan swords under the hot sun. Entire families would attend events, and I met people who for years camped together as a group with five families or more. I played my fiddle a lot. Met a number of folks who built their own armor, some of it museum quality. Some folks might do a row of riveted chain mail in the course of an evening at home watching a favorite TV show. That translates to several months to create just the drape of chain mail to cover the back of your neck.
There was also semi-riveted mail, where most of the rings were solid and the connecting rings were riveted, popular throughout the Medieval period and in India! The rivets differed too, changing in Europe from round rivets to more solid wedge rivets. There's also discussion to be had about different weaves. 6-in-1 weave was very, very rigid and sturdy, useful for something like mail standards protecting necks, while 4-in-1 was the most common in Europe. That meant that each ring was connected by 4 other rings. 6-in-1 was both heavier and too rigid for things like hauberks, so it was very specialised in Europe.
Making the second type sounds time consuming and tedious, but it's actually a riveting process
xD
This is fuckong hilarious 😂 thanks for the clever comment
Once you have been shot at with bodkin arrow heads, you will know if your mail was riveted, imbuing a little spell on every ring, or if it was just holding itself together by rust and tradition.
But the seller will not hear complaints from you in either case, so that is fine.
But it protects much better.
Maybe that's from where the expression derives? Riveting the mail would require extendes periods of focus. Makes sense. If anyone knows if this is true, respond, thx.
I feel bad for the sad bastards who were born before plate armor was a thing
i feel bad for the person that had to rivet all that riveted chainmail
Apprentices, that is what they are for.😉
I mean they were getting paid (I hope) I presume it would be like a old factory job
maybe that person things that kind of work riveting 😅🤣
Don't be silly. They had all the time to do it. Literally.
My first thought was why not just weld them……then I remembered this was hundreds of years ago
"I can absolutely talk about X," is the energy I need in my mornings.
Same
“X”?
You mean the social media platform from Elon musk?
@@nickel2874😅
@@nickel2874🤓 🤡
@@nickel2874This comment made me realize that Twitter's rebrand may be the worst thing to happen to humanity since amogus
I suspect “butted” mail rings are more likely to spread open than riveted mail if an arrow head or lance head tries to push through.
Yes there vastly weaker for the same thickness of wire.
This is where context is key! If you're making mail for, say, a butcher's glove, then you don't need to worry about arrows so much ^_^
@@AviDragonLadynot with powerful thrusts like from say, an arrow loosed from a war bow, or especially a couched lance. Those are going straight through any amount of butted chain mail and padding underneath.
@@JDraper You never know, you may find yourself attacked by a medieval archer after finishing your day as a butcher.
@@AviDragonLadystill, even if it’s easier to repair you also have a hole in you from being shot w an arrow
I never knew that chai mail was so bloody interesting! 😂
So riveting.
I could really go for a nice cup of chai mail right about now. Mmm!
@@nihiliststarDammit you beat me to it😂
Day 10 of asking for a video on historic dentistry
Aah, tea mail
Maybe a small addition: Riveted mail was also used in the Arabic area, there are also some very beautiful shirts of riveted mail with religious inscriptions on every single ring from Iran which is quite insane. Adam Savage showed such an example in one of his videos at the Metropolitan Museum of Arts.
Writing on a very small ring, *BY HAND* mind you, is already impressive.
That was Mughal, not Arabic. I am not aware of any Arabic mail (or, indeed, any other example Mughal or otherwise) in which each ring contains an inscription.
@@spades9681 Yeah, you're half-right, but I'm not refering to the Mughal one in the "Why This Chainmail Shirt is Fascinating" video, it's from "Adam Savage Learns How Real Chain Mail Is Restored". According to the curator it's from 15th or 16th century Iran and there are multiple of these shirts, probably all from the same workshop. So yeah, not Arabic, just Islamic.
@@Kuhmuhnistische_Partei Ah, so there are. A good few surviving examples, actually, which makes one wonder how many inscribed shirts have existed that didn’t survive, acknowledging that such exquisite items are much more likely to.
Adam Savage, as in the dude from Mythbusters? 😍😍
You’re one of my favourite historians, simple, fun and direct
My dear friend Walter passed away earlier this year. He was crazy enough to make his own butted chain mail. I have one of the gloves right here ❤. I miss you Walter...
Sorry for your loss, your friend seems to have been a very cool person
*WALTUH*
@fulana_de_tal he really was. There's actually a video on UA-cam where he "stars" in a music video he made with friends forever ago. It's has to be over 20 years ago. It's hilariously zero budget, but I grin ear to ear every time I see it. 😆😂🥹🥺. I'll see if I can find it.
@fulana_de_tal got it! He's the guy with the beard (not the merlin guy 😆) he first appears 7 seconds in, walking through the door. Then he's pretty much in the rest of the music video. ua-cam.com/video/mMS6MnAe15U/v-deo.html
@@mamavanaedan thank you for sharing, older youtube videos are usually so fun
Riveting video. 👍
Sorry, that was bad... 😅
I was going to use that.. good shot sir!
Not bad, genius!
…god dammit!!! ✋🏼🤣
Clever, butt...
Never apologize! Bravo👏
You could also talk about different patterns of how the rings are linked together. I don't know the details but I have seen it discussed. Basically it has to do with how many neighboring rings each ring is linked with. More rings = better protection, but it's heavier and more expensive.
Yes this would be so cool!
@@AviDragonLadyI've done two different 6-in-1, last time i did the Asian was for a coin purse and the European one it was for a chocker
Many of the european patterns have several variations 4-in-1 is the most common, and basically only pattern you'll see historically in europe and japan, but japan actually had their own unique 4-in-1 pattern that is made somewhat differently.
Put simply, 4 in 1 has one ring connected to 4 others, say 2 above, 2 below. European 6-in-1 is similar, but say 3 above, 3 below. On a contrary way of doing it, you might have 8-in-2, which is the same as 4-in-1, but has two rings where 4-in-1 has one ring. this 8-in-2 is sometimes done for cosplay or larp armor, and is referred to as "King's Maille". I personally am making a full chainmaille shirt out of the next tier up, 12-in-3, or Queen's Maille, which, as far as im aware, nobody has made anything ever using Queen's Maille, let alone a full shirt, so I intend to be the first ever to do so!
A German mail maker who also does research like looking at museum pieces and stuff talked about it and he said that basically all European mail for like 2000 years was 4-in-1 with extremely few exceptions. And most of those exceptions are not for a whole mail shirt, but just for specific parts, mostly the part around the neck, because it was supposed to be quite stiff like the neck parts of some suits so it stands up. But even there he only knew 2 out of 60 examples for 6-in-1, it was mostly done by using thicker rings in a normal 4-in-1 pattern.
Others have talked about the different patterns, and you mentioned the increase in weigh as denser patterns are used (I'd note that people usually underestimate how much extra weight is added). One other note is that denser patterns have far less "give" to them before they start entering that state where they act as a single piece rather than individual rings, which gives said dense patterns far less of a range of motion. I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised to find pieces where the density of the pattern maps well to where the wearer would need more mobility, ie. around big joints. One might even find riveted or butted mail depending on the level of protection required for a given body-part, but, again, that's just speculation on my part. Could be that another factor like the process of manufacture would make that kind of customization too labour-intensive.
I’m so impressed by the uniformity of the mail, both versions. But the attention to detail needed for the riveted version 🤯
The uniformity is impressive, but is more understandable when you realize how the rings were usually made. One method of manufacture involved taking a rounded dowel and wrapping a wire around it tightly along its length until you cut the rings free up one side, like using scissors to remove a spiral binding on a notebook. This technique had the advantage of producing rings that were already "open" and ready to be assembled, rather than having to open each ring manually, insert it into the pattern, and then close it again. Uniformity of rings tends to lead to uniformity of pattern, in the same way that building with standardized Legos makes it easy to produce and replicate an exact structure.
What is amazing to me is when you compare it to clothing in those times. When it was difficult and expensive to make fabric clothes let alone a suit of chainmail.
My blacksmith's wife is a seamstress and helps with the design... lol
From a reenacting point of view, it can sometimes be safer to use riveted mail because butted mail can sometimes get caught on clothes and hair and stuff
From a real-life point of view, it can sometimes be safer to use riveted mail because butted mail can sometimes get caught on swords and spears and deadly weapons and stuff :-O
I just mean it was stronger not invulnerable ;-) Have known someone to LARP?
From my experience riveted is actually worse than butted. Butted usually forms a pretty smooth surface as long as the ends of the rings are decently rounded and close together.
Rivets on the other hand always stick out. And due to the overlapping metal around the rivets you have thousands of little shears, that will catch every hair or loose strand that they get in touch with.
@@NotSoMuchFrankly I think Sonic the Hedgehog might be inspired with a view of a person in butted mail getting a hit. Rings fly everywhere!
Yoooo So riveted mail with absolutely consume your hair if exposed to it. Buttet mail you can get it out without breaking your hair...Buttet mail? Best break out the scissors. My scalp still hurts thinking about it XD
@@guinevereskylark7318there’s another reason to wear a good padded coif under your mail. It’s not just getting hit by a mace that thing’s protecting you from
The sheer enthusiasm and energy here is awesome and I'm living for it
I get the feeling there is no one in the world who would be happier to talk about this topic and that's part of why you're so good at this stuff.
As someone who makes maille, thank you for actually getting it correct! riveted flat rings are the most accurate historically, whether it was the '1' of the '4-in-1', or all the rings, often the whole ring was flattened instead of just the overlap where a hole would be drifted and riveted.
That was rivet-ing.
I'll show myself out.
No it’s fine, you are not the only guilty one.
I would love to see you compère the different styles on effectiveness with different types of blows!
There are literally dozens of channels already doing such tests. Riveted mail always wins, unless you use bodkin points with high draw weight bows (not necessarily longbows, but it helps).
@@DavidSmith-vr1nba lance will do even better.
Butted mail doesn’t make great armor an axe, thrusting weapons or arrows will all most likely split rings and pierce through, though they’re decent for gauntlet lining cause how often do you get stabbed in the palm of the hand, but it’ll still protect you from most slashes so you can mordhau with butted mail gauntlets, riveted mail will stop most things other than like a lance or a crossbow neither will stop the blunt force though
@@goiliath9s496 thanks this was really informative
Thanks all your comments a
are really informative and helpful
Amusing and informative as usual thanks Jenny! 😮❤😊🙏🙌
Damn british accent is soothing af
Ikr at leat half the ppl i watch have brit accents, feel so good for our country 🇬🇧
Same, man. Love me some British ytbers. Scouse, Scottish, cockney, love em all.
@justvibing4796Oh my... Oh no
@justvibing4796 idk sounds homely to me
I just love your style. I can clearly see that you love to spread knowledge.
Now I know where the saying "riveting" comes from
Gotta say it, history nerds like you are the reason the internet is such an interesting place. Thank you
Day 9 of asking for a video on Historic Dentistry
Please do one :)
I always wondered if they had a solution to the chain mail busting on being slashed, and now I have the answer! Always love your videos!
Sounds like a riveting job 😂
Well, today I learned there was more than one kind of chain mail
Wow this video was so …. riveting…. btw I do love your videos
"Someone sat done and riveted each one of these rings together". And you thought your job sucked...
A riveting tale.
I checked the comments _just_ to see how long it would take before I saw someone making this pun. I was not disappointed
@@douglaswolfen7820 I wasn't the first!
European medieval armorsmithing was an incredible artisan craft. I have an immense appreciation for the labor and specialization they practiced.
How practical is a chainmail shirt as something I could just wear on a daily basis? What's the pro tips for being a chainmail wearer? Asking for a friend who may or may not go by the name me, myself, and/or I
EDIT: thanks for all the great replies! I looked it up after this and it also seems like stainless steel would be the best material, rust tends to rub off and discolor other clothes while aluminum is too brittle and is only really good for cosplays
It’s so heavy, like 50-60lbs so it was worn during battle or jousting
And Aye? ;) ... A Good belt is the key. You want to split the weight between your shoulder and hips so a good solid chunky belt take a good portion of the weight off your shoulder and put it on your hips. Those wide Heroic belly belts you see larpers wear are not just for fashion (though with leather armour... nah, that's just fashion!).
You want something padded under it, often called a Gambeson. You will sweat a lot so you likely want 3 Gambesons, one to wear, one in the wash, one still drying from last week!
Chain and long hair do NOT get on. Otherwise, ever worn a really heavy thick woollen greatcoat. Its like walking about wearing one of those.
My Qualifications? 20 or so years a battle event larper! (Curious pastimes etc)
@@WinterWitch01 Not really, more 3 stone there abouts. You could walk about it all day. Though if you put it in a bag and drop the bag on your foot its going to hurt (not that I've done that.. OK I have so actually done that!).
Small jumps throughout the day to release the weight off your shoulders are key :)
Make sure you wear a thick padded shirt under the mail to provide cushioning.
This button of knowledge is absolutely riveting.
Id love to own as much chain mail as you do
:,(
Well she might need it. You never know how violent it could be there in her kitchen.
@@NotSoMuchFranklyshes there with gordon ramesy
@@MURDERPILLOW. So, it counts as a business expense. The Inland Revenue Service would never question it.
The rivetted mail looks like the most mind numbing thing ever to make
I never would have known Nigerians were cable of such “technology” at the time. Based on what you get in schools you would have thought they were running around with rags and clubs. Thanks for the insight!
Colonialism has done big damages to the image the occident has of African history. There were a lot of rich kingdoms there, with plenty of armies. The only thing they lacked in the 19th century was enough fire weapons to properly fight back against the French, Great Britain, etc. It is very interesting to learn about the continent history :).
Oh yeah, mail armour absolutely was used in the northern half of Africa (not so much in southern Africa and the rainforest areas). They used many similar forms of armour to the European and Islamic Middle Ages and Early Modern Period. In the Sahel region especially there were African knights on horseback with chain mail covering both horse and rider and they fought with laces, swords and shields. Various forms of quilted fabric armour were also used (like Gambeson in Europe).
The Northern half of Africa (including North, West and East Africa) were at about the same technological level as the Middle East for most of the last few centuries before colonialism. It wasn't really until after 1700 that the European technological lead became so dominant that they outpaced everyone else, which led to conquests.
From the late 1400s, up to the end of the 19th century, African kingdoms and empires were very much keen to trade for European made guns (muskets, cannons and gunpowder). Of course the main thing they sold in exchange were slaves.
But many of these kingdoms had well organised armies with plenty of gunpowder, but also lots of traditional weaponry (they also forged their own cannons, etc). For the whole "Age of Exploration" the Europeans didn't much attempt to attack them, because it would have been too difficult. But by the late 19th century, European military firepower technology had advanced so much that all previous opposition technologies in Africa were made obsolete. And so Africa fell to accurate, repeating rifles and machineguns.
It seems many countries in Africa endure the same issues Eastern European countries have where the lack of stable crop growing conditions and the intense weather made it harder to have stable crop yields each year which made it hard for enough people to focus full time on jobs other than farming in order to help advance society.
Also it seems there's a huge difference between the technology levels across Africa even across different regions. Like even though the people in Nigeria had chainmail and swords the Zulu people were still just using spears against British redcoats during the 18th century.
@@SurprisinglyDeepDude! did you seriously just call the Zulu Assegai "just a spear"? 🤔
you realize the British did lose their first encounters in the Anglo-Zulu wars? 👀
Also, no, the Zulus used guns as well as assegais in those encounters. most African nations had access to guns by then.
just take the L dude. Africans were not backward, they were simply conquered by the use of machine gun tech, and by the determination/desperation of the European invading forces
@SporeMurph @SurprisinglyDeep I don't think historians really talk about "technology levels" these days, so it might be better to say "industrialization".
I've been learning how to make chainmail and I find this very interesting. Thank you!
I already left a comment i forgot to mention, making chain mail can be rivetting.
Please clap.
Your enthusiasm for chain mail makes me smile. Certainly butted mail is easier to make, but it is certainly easier to repair. I am almost certain I misspelled the word mail. Please feel to straighten me out on that.
was there a version that combined them, like for points that had more stress were riveted together (like at the armpit or up top where the weight of the loops below would drag it down) and the rest was butted?
The primary benefit of the strength isn't so much in normal wearing, but when somebody is trying to shove something through your armor. A riveted ring isn't going to open easily, and you're far more likely to live.
Please make a wake up video for all us sleepy heads. I love your energy! I also enjoy you videos!
This video wasn't boring. In fact... it was positively riveting.
I didn't know I needed this but I'm happy to have found it. Thank you.
"Take a lot longer to make" is just code for "the blacksmith gets paid by the hour".
I could listen to you talk about chainmail and medieval armor all day.
You're a character I would absolutely expect to find in Yharnam.
I love the energy "I can ABSOLUTELY talk about chainmail" 😂
Making riveted mail without podcasts must be excruciating
Never would've thought that Tracer is so passionate about chainmail...
When you find out what people did before cellphones lol
and the different patterns if you want fancy... just gorgeous
I wish my highschool teachers were as excited as you. Your delivery is... "Riveting"
You're a Hoot, British Lady. Thanks again
I never knew that talking about chainmail could be so... riveting.
I already knew this, but I absolutely loved watching you fangirl over this.
I just imagine some blacksmith making riveted chainmail armor sitting in a rocking chair like a granny "my lord I've finished nitting thy metal sweater" lol
I used chainmail to clean my cast iron pan so I thought that is what was gonna happen when I saw her in a kitchen.
Butted chain mail sure looks cute with a blue top and a good boomstick
Lindybeige and her need to do a collaboration on historical random topics for the sheer British wit and entertainment that would provided...
Makes me want to see a comparison between riveted and welded chain mail.
I always love getting inspired for D&D stuff~✨🗡️🏹🛡️
Mass production vs artisanal. It's a debate that's gone on as long as civilization has existed.
That's good to know. Now I can shop with confidence.
You can tell it's early for me when I read it as buttered mail.
This was a surprisingly neat fact
You might be my new favorite UA-camr!
The amount of work done for armor is insane
And in the 1970s in the UK, we see the arrival of knitted mail, as seen on Arthur King of the Britons
Fascinating...as an African, I had no idea some African cultures also used chainmail as armor in the past. Thanks for sharing
Getting asked a question about chain mail and casually holding two pieces into the camera like it's the most normal and common thing to have that at home.
That's quite funny to me.
I wore a midevial dress and a chain mail necklace to my senior prom in 2005. It was awesome!
I love how the melon is just sitting there in the background
Fyi for anyone interested chainmail is fairly easy to make, just a little time consuming. All you need is two pairs of pliers, a pair of vice grips, some tin snips, a steel rod and metal wire.
There are guides woth pictures online, but basically what you do is use the vice grips to secure the wire to the metal rod, then you twist it slowly to make a long coil that looks like a spring. Once it is as long as you want it release the vice grips, remove the coil from the rod, then use the tin snips to cut it into individual rings.
Then you can weave the rings together in either a 4 in 1, 6 in 1, or for the truly insane an 8 in one pattern. I have made my own chainmail shirt out of 14 gage steel wire, in a 6 in one pattern. Its fairly aimply to do, but it did take me several months of working at it for 30 mins to an hour a day. The process is a lot faster if you can make a lathe or buy oremade rings.
I definitely read that as buttered chainmail.
Same!
You also can often see a example of _butted mail_ on a Friday night out.
The blacksmith when he gets 90 orders of chainmail
Noted. Next time I go for a crusade I'll buy a riveted chain mail.
It's amazing how people actually took the extra time to rivet each and every one of those loops to make protective armor in the middle ages. Wonder if multiple blacksmiths worked on a mail suit in a day and how long it usually took because I'm sure it took a LONG time to make a full mail tunic that way.
i thought mail was french for chain until i decided to fact check before commenting, turns out i learnt more from this video than you may have expected anyone too.
My teenaged son made a full “Butted” Kings Link Chain shirt during COVID shutdown!! He’s grown considerably since then… so just this week he resized it! His next project is riveted! He has since started blacksmithing!! I’m growing a Viking!
The third kind is what's only just now being made nowadays. Welded mail and it's most commonly seen with and used by shark diving tours in places like the modern Carrabian. Like riveted mail, a worker sat at a workbench, knitting the rings together, but whereas traditional mail like the riveted and butted examples used either nearly pure elemental iron or medieval steel, welded mail either uses either stainless steel or titanium and designed to use lessons learned on medieval battlefields to blunt and deflect bites from sharks.
Look at that, I thought it was all riveted, as it makes a world of difference.
My favorite genre of British woman is the spastic squirrel type; large eyes, expressive face, fast and hyper talker, fan of chainmail
I got to be real, if some conservative white men said what this girl said it could be construed is punching down and racist, as it speaks ill of minority groups' chainmail linking ability while punching up white european forged links
Another fact to store in my mind! Thank you very much
I loved listening about the European mail. It was very riveting
"Alright, Blacksmith. I want my mail shirt, once it's done - you're coming with me on the Crusade."
"Right, yes. It'll be done in... Who knows? I've got so many... rivets to rivet. Yes. Riveted mail, all the rage."
It would take the better part of a full year with an entire team working on it! very riveting indeed.
@@mrmediocre1532 "Sorry boss, looks like I can't go to war with you. I've got to get my entire extended family to spend five years riveting this shirt."
More! More things you can ABSOLUTELY talk about.
This is the most french looking british person I've ever seen.
She 100% pulled those out from the cabinet under the kitchen sink.
I learned how to make chain mail when I took a jewellery making course several years ago. It’s amazing how creative you can be with a bit of knowledge! Made a “vest” for my cat. She didn’t like wearing it though it was alarmingly cute in her! 🇨🇦🖖🏻🇨🇦
this is such an interesting topic! i could listen to this for a few hours i think :)
Very swag.
Those rivets have to be worth it.
Gotta be an absolute flex telling everyone you have medieval armor
In riveted mail they used solid rings too. So many riveted rings per solid ring.
Although there are riveted mail armor pieces with no solid rings at all.
Agreed. I guess I didn't make that clear in my response.
I’d make a chain mail “loom” for this that did all the bigger flat pieces so I could only do the joining by hand.
Something like a coin sorter shaker tray to line up all the rings then a line stamper that would use screw pressure to rivet a whole line at once. The stamper would also eject and alternately offset the line to right or left to align the next row.
Dump a big bag of rings, shake, stamp, shake, stamp. Automation.
Practically speaking, it's really a matter of whether you want to incorporate extra metal in your chainmail NOW with rivets or LATER with new rings as they pop off.
What an absolutely riveting topic
When I lived in CA, I enjoyed camping with the people who wore medieval clothes and swatted each other with rattan swords under the hot sun. Entire families would attend events, and I met people who for years camped together as a group with five families or more. I played my fiddle a lot. Met a number of folks who built their own armor, some of it museum quality. Some folks might do a row of riveted chain mail in the course of an evening at home watching a favorite TV show. That translates to several months to create just the drape of chain mail to cover the back of your neck.
There was also semi-riveted mail, where most of the rings were solid and the connecting rings were riveted, popular throughout the Medieval period and in India! The rivets differed too, changing in Europe from round rivets to more solid wedge rivets.
There's also discussion to be had about different weaves. 6-in-1 weave was very, very rigid and sturdy, useful for something like mail standards protecting necks, while 4-in-1 was the most common in Europe. That meant that each ring was connected by 4 other rings. 6-in-1 was both heavier and too rigid for things like hauberks, so it was very specialised in Europe.
riveted mail must have been expensive as hell
We need a video of you in full chainmail armor!