Exalted 3rd Edition's Crimes Against Humanity | Black Lodge Games Podcast
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- Опубліковано 13 жов 2024
- This week, we discuss why roleplaying in character adds more to any game of any style, why you should want excellence at your table, and how the villains at Onyx Path Publishing (armed with a practically unlimited art budget) ripped the heart and soul out of the aesthetics of the Exalted game line.
#exalted #onyxpath #whitewolf
The art of Exalted 3rd edition and Exalted Essence is a crime against aesthetics and should land everyone involved in Guantanamo Bay with no chance of parole.
The art of the new edition is flat, lifeless, intentionally ugly, and all of the characters look like they're on mind numbing anti depressants. They desexualized the characters entirely and have a clear hatred of the human body, beauty, excellence, and every ideal that the Exalted represent.
Straight to jail.
I don’t think it’s so much about sex appeal in the art, but aspirational fantasy. I want my characters to be what I aspire to. By giving myself an outlet to imagine a personification of what I aspire to be, I make a target I can seek to live up to. The bland art tells me that I have nothing to improve and that I’m perfect just how I am. That’s untrue and uninteresting both in storytelling and in life.
a big issue with ttrpg art is that its all flat and its usually people looking mildly angry/annoyed (vexed would be the closest word in English). i work with a lot of ppl who do ttrpg art for other creators and i have to really push for expression.
A lot of queer people came to exalted specifically for the attractive, idealized art and mechanics that let them build what they want, and don't let people tell you otherwise. They also hate the bad art.
A lot of the artists of second edition were queer too. The culture has changed so much in the last 15 years it's so odd to see beauty lost
Being queer wasn’t a weapon back then and despite what the locusts say, others didn’t care they were.
Exalted, a game I almost played but backed out because the ST admitted he didn't read the book and was just going to wing it.
It probably would’ve played better. Exalted 3e is a complete crapfest.
54:40 A sleepy man plays RPGs with minis with the Hellraiser puzzle box. Then gets what he deserves.
They have such sights to not show you
Exalted 3x is a crime against gaming. Art, rules, the Kickstarter, the release cycle….the list goes on. 2nd was one of my favorite games of all time and I own the whole line. It was fucked and needed the 2.5 errata to be playable, but it worked.
3x is the biggest disappointment I’ve had in my rpg gaming career. I should have known it was going to be awful during the whole Kickstarter, but it really sunk in when the beta leak came out and was full of fundamental problems (after THREE rewrites). Community voiced their concerns and, instead of listening, Onyx Path blamed the beta testers and didn’t release any more beta material. Not even mentioning the stolen art…
3x is a train wreck from start to finish and it’s sad.
If they incorporated the errata into the 2e core book I'd be happy. What they did instead was a travesty
@@blacklodgegameswhat was even stranger was the people who wrote the errata wrote 3x. I don’t know what happened. But they were way to focused on making taking video game mechanics they liked and turning them into a combat system in my opinion.
@@03dashk64 the base combat system with withering/decisive was interesting to me and I liked how they handled mass combat. The problem as I remember it was the sheer number of charms available. It made the game unplayable imo
Honestly the most damning thing of 3x to me is just how brutally the rules are humiliated by _bonus material_ for Godbound. (oh hi, here's every spat from 2e!) Mechanically not for everyone, sure, but the difference in ease of use and lack of needing to both look things up and have a character folder rather than a sheet? Yeah that just... Essence is at least potentially functional, but why bother? The only thing to come out of 3x so far that I legitimately like is the setting book on The Realm. The whole 'here is what a part of the empire thought of itself, here is what it actually was before the empress vanished, here is what it's like now' is brilliant.
The art is 2004 3.5 OSR book from an unknown indie publisher that you buy for 10 bucks.
Sad to see this happen to a setting that could have been really awesome.
Onyx Path must have different art directors for different games. I have their new Aberrant book and it's art style is similar to Exalted 2e. The back cover has a sexualized chick covered in green fire. It's very opposite Exalted 3e.
I'm blown away by how awful Ex 3 is in the art department.
Yeah it's really wild how bad it is
I really love Exalted. I even backed the latest streamlined edition. It works for me. But the art? 100% agree with these guys. There has not been a game that could measure up to 2nd edition art. But they started with the awesome style sometime during 1st edition, specifically when they hired Udon studio to do the covers. Just look at the Sidereals book cover image, or the ultimate wish fulfillment - the contest they had to put players' actual characters on the Players Guide cover.
I can't accept what's happening with the Onyx Path art direction nowadays (although they do put out some very pretty covers).
Udon was SO good
I would love a video on games/mechanics that help with immersion
We will make one but that will take some thought so might be a while
@@blacklodgegames I will wait in anticipation :) I love this channel.
Are you familiar with the history behind the image of the empress in Ex3? Originally, she was painted as showing legs. This apparently upset people as too sexualized, so they painted over the legs so it is now covered by her dress.
While there's some stupid stuff in 2nd edition (it is after all at least a few thousand pages if combining the books), but I lost count of how many complaints on 2nd edition that's not even in there. There's some sort of Mandela effect, where they have imagined a problem in it, and then are railing against it. Or something that is in an optional adventure, but somehow uplifted as some sort of mandatory canon for the entire edition.
Exalted, I love the game (for me, 2nd edition combined with my own stuff and a few things from 1st, and the map from 3rd). But I can't say I can stand the current fan-base. So, I'm not sure I will manage to get a new group together for it.
Check out Lone Wolf Fists from Joel T Clark. Better alternative to exalted
What would be a good example of a good amount of grit to the rules vs too much Grit? good video as always btw
I think mage the awakening and Exalted 3rd edition are examples of too much grit. Exalted has about 350 pages of charms (magic abilities) that you can choose from. They all behave differently under different sets of conditions, so it is just a giant mess to keep track of. I prefer simple systems that are easy to remember without having to reference a book too much.
"Don't start a fight at your table"
Or do, and tell us how it went
Have you seen the First Edition art? I'd be curious to hear your opinion on that in comparison to the other two.
Some of it but most of my experience is with second edition.
From what I remember, first edition art was somewhere between second and third IMHO.
Exalted's ruleset has always been a mess, no matter the edition. Essence is the closest to a working "out of box" Exalted ruleset. So I play Exalted Essence with the First Edition lore, which is by far the coolest and most inspiring (imho), plus the things I liked from 2nd and 3rd editions.
Just wish there was a good version that incorporated everything :(
@@blacklodgegames From what I'm hearing, a fan Exalted Demake might be that version once it's actually finished...
I watched a stream, they were describing food for over an hour. That's not a game. Its a talk show.
oh man that's ridiculous
27:40 Couldn't agree more.
I also agree.
43:47 'He' isn't fighting the water elemental. He is Eclipse caste and likely beseeching it. It they were fighting He would have weapons drawn. The beastfolk has a weapon drawn implying nervousness.
Funny enough, I'm still very at the beginning but I was infact a few times mocked for going to deep in my character, with also the addition of being told that that isn't what my personal opinion on the matter, multiple times, and every time I had to say that it's an opinion that my character has, that's all
Although I agree with your comments on the art being sub par, I’d like you guys to discuss lore of Exalted: it’s a fascination that’s pulled me away from D&D’s Forgotten Realms
We will discuss exalted 2e at some point but have some other plans in the near term.
From "god-like" to "god-awful"...
+1 for throwing bland artists into GITMO.... though they are are only doing what they are paid to do, so that should probably be the Editor and Art director.
What edition of Exalted would you guys reccomend to someone new to the franchise mainly just looking to read up on all the lore / worldbuilding elements?
I like second edition with the errata. The errata is over 100 pages though lol
Clearly second Edition. The rules may be clunky and often un-intuitive, but second edition is by far the most "complete" version of Exalted lore-wise. It is also the only edition that has lore on Infernals and the First Age.
Is it just me that thinks it's ironic that you say you don't understand why some people don't want to voice act, while playing a game where you want to get into the mind of the character you are playing? ;)
Totally agree. Awesome video.
Thanks! Share it around!
Going through your back catalog and I would up vote this... but you're at 69 up votes. :)
nice
This feels like very shallow art criticism that really just boils down to 'I like this one' and 'I didn't like this one'.
It's fine to have preferences. It's fine to prefer the more bombastic cartoon-y/comic book-y art style of second edition. But, come on, let's not act like this is anything *more* than preference.
Standards of beauty are objective. I don't make the rules, sorry.
@@blacklodgegames By the standards of beauty that non-artists and especially people that are conservative about art tend to prop up, which is to say, standards that prioritize technical skill and realism, third edition's art is *objectively* better.
Now, I don't want to assume, maybe you guys do really try to be thoughtful about art. But it certainly doesn't *seem* that way at a glance.
@@blacklodgegames While I do think that idealized characters are better suited to represent the god queens and kings of Creation, the idea of objective beauty standards is such utter and complete nonsense that it devalues any otherwise valid criticism you made in the video.
@@matunusdonnerhammer3423 Beauty is real, we know what it is
I like what you guys say about getting into character and being immersed but I disagree with your abhorrence towards props and maps and visual aesthetics as some kind of limiter to being immersed.
I have what is called Aphantasia. It's a disorder where a person has great difficulty being able to visualize and see in his or her mind imagery. It's often called Mind Blindness. In order for me to See imagery in my mind I need visual help. Maps. Miniatures. Artwork. Things like that. You can describe a scene all you want but by the time your done most likely I will have a blank image in my mind. But it does depend on how you describe it. The more evocative you are, with body language and flair, etc. can help but I still won't be able to totally theater of the mind it without a visual aid.
So don't denigrate some of us who use physical props and maps. Some of us just can't be pure theater of the mind and it's shitty to assume that we are lesser roleplayers for needing help.
Having aphantasia is a different case than we are talking about. I've also heard people who run games for kids who have ADHD, and that would fall outside of this as well. And if you're roleplaying and using these as aides to roleplay, we don't criticize for that.
It's people who like minis for minis sake that are a problem.
As someone Bisexual, I’d love to see not only hot ladies and muscular men, but also handsome men and buff ladies. There’s multiple body types that are beautiful for both sexes. Look at Baldurs Gate 3, and those companions.
They all got a different attractive charisma about them, and they’re all Player-sexual. I’d say that’s high sex appeal done right by a game visual design team
Agreed, but Gale is too thirsty for anyone
@@blacklodgegames personally, I let him leave after he wanted more and more magic items
I like my shiny things more than I liked Gale, lol
01:01:57 Oh no, no, no my dudes. It's worse than you think. That's no chariot. That Abyssal is handicapable
one problem with games that are too focused on the rules is that game design is essentially about problem solving and drama is conflict. It can happen that the rules give you ways to solve the conflicts that need to be addressed in order to create drama.
Tried to play exalted, but me and my players prefer the Godbound system. It's more simple and we really feel as demigods.
I enjoy Ex2, playing a campaign right now. I skipped Ex3 because my table doesn't like it. I got ExEss just to see the vibes of Ex3 and, yeah, really feel like it's lamer. Blander. Boring-er. Beiger instead of Gold. Then the art. The art is consistently shit across Ex3.
Check out Lone Wolf Fists by Joel T Clark. Different setting but a great successor to the style of exalted in my opinion.
The infernal looks like the final fantasy 1 theif
Lol
Yeah, it seems OPP are very stingy when it comes to their art budget, and also you don't have people that care about the art anymore., or they don't have the budget to really get something good. Exalted has a very specific artstyle that you can't just commission anyone with since it's not generic fantasy. A daiklave is not just a sword, soldiers don't look like medieval knights, and sorcery isn't just colourful beams of lights.
Essence is on a whole other level of going cheap with art and having zero people that make sure the art is in-line with what was intended. I heard some amusing theory about that piece having the Lunar child twins in them. That the art direction was supposed to be to depict a nonbinary "they" character, but since the art was outsourced to someone without english as their primary language, they interpreted singular "they" as a plural "they" and hence why you have two kids...
As for the Red Rule, it's there to protect you from edgy gamers and GMs that want to just get into your imagenary pants. While of course it won't protect you against people that will just ignore the rule, it's apparently been a really great dogwhistle that lets you know if the table you're about to play with is on the same wavelength as you based on whether they accept that rule or balk against it.
the standard facial expression for women is "i want to speak to the manager"
Seeing how ugly and bland exalted 3rd edition is, I'll never touch it. I kinda prefer 1st edition mechanics.
I'm only familiar with 2e mechanics which were admittedly a mess
10m in, curious if it stops being elitist bs about people 'playing wrong'.
The only right way to play is whatever is most fun for the individual player. It's an entirely subjective thing, and you're insiating it is actually objective.
Your way is right for you. Their way is right for them. They can try your way, but if they don't enjoy it, your way is wrong. *For them*.
@@paulchaisson8301 is there a wrong way to play basketball?
Ill take players that talk in third person over players that talk in first person with a silly accent any day.
AI can't replace these people fast enough.
Oh God how much I agree with you. I was so pissed when I saw that arts first time. With all thaty political correctness. So annoying. They completly lost what was alluring the most in this game.
Combat and social combat in 3rd edition is snazzy, but... i stick to 2nd edition.
Btw... in 51:40, on page 60, did you see that "Solar Exalted Adventage"?
"First Among Equals". EQUALS? Solar Exalted? Equals to whom?!
oh man, I'm disappointed. Saw it named in passing and heard there were anime influences so was going to take a look. Super bummed out it's this shitty western avoidance of pretty people and instead goes all-in on LGBT "invlusivity" crap
Check out Lone Wolf Fists. Much better alternative to exalted in the modern age.
this game looks terrible.
Have you ever been on the "official" Exalted Discord? If not, bless you, if you do you'll see a direct correlation of the players 3e has fostered and why it's such a garbage edition: wrong think, third wave feminism, trans-trenders, anti-religion, and anti-masculinity that paints white men as original sin and the patriarchy as evil. Your gender, gender expression, and sex are more important, and ensuring everyone's feelings are accounted for, then creating compelling campaigns and adventures that explore great acts of heroism and strength against the depravities of Creation and the villainy that needs to be stamped out, while being Greek Adonis's and Aphrodite's. Lastly, they went out of their way to make everything bland, ugly, and boring, wtf? What is with this clear antagonism towards beauty and differences in culture?