11:00 Well if we check the music copyright for Super Smash Bros. Ultimate on the songs Green Hill Zone, Scrap Brain Zone, and Emerald Hill Zone, it says that the songs are still copyrighted by Masato Nakamura, so Sega still probably has to pay some royalties whenever Green Hill and other songs are ever used.
In addition, the OST for Sonic Mania at Spotify was also missing the songs from Sonic 1 and 2. The whole OST got removed since then, but I doubt that's related since the same also happened to Sonic Rush and Sonic Generations Disc 2 and 3 for no apparent reason.
Thinking about it like this, I actually feel bad for SEGA. I talked with Aaron Webber at SXSW 2019, and he pretty much implied without saying straight up, that he wants Sonic 3 to come out again but they can’t. I hope everything gets cleared up someday
Fantastic video, as always. shame we'll never get an official sonic 3 & knuckles, it's my favorite in the trilogy. the storytelling in that game is phenomenal.
12:59 Alright, you're going a bit off the rails with speculation. Yes, porting the music takes more skill than the average code monkey, but keep in mind that Sega already has M2 under their belt AND they've welcomed members of the community to help them before. I think your second explanation makes a lot more sense. Also, there's still the possibility that they'd get brought to court by undead MJ's hounds even if all the music is replaced just because they don't know any better or because there's some other legal knot.
I agree, i don't buy all this speculation. Everyone re release old games with a modern engine or emulation. They have 2 studios who done it with the other Sonic games (hell even the music licensing from Sonic CD debunk his speculation). Why not just re use Sonic 1 and 2 music, or compose new ones if they CANT use none of the Sound Tracks of 3?I'm positive they just don't port it for a different reason. Technical reasons and licensing is easy to work around (Hell, Quake has the same Music hell licensing and yet it is on Steam with no music). Sega with the mods would easily make all the money they would invest in edit the original game with a new OST AND The mods would re add it without legal issues for them. Just as ID done with Quake.
At this point, I'm satisfied enough that we have Sonic AIR regardless, but I do have some thoughtful speculation on the situation. We all agree MJ and his crew were involved in Sonic 3, but the timelines don't add up (or people think they don't, at least) but I believe that this can be explained rather easily though in a number of ways. Possibility 1: See, as you said in your video there's a process by which songs were adapted from source recordings to digitized synthesizer data (chiptunes), it's possible that Sonic 3 was going through so much difficulty in development that the sound engine people were a little too busy making sure the game's audio drivers weren't full of bugs. We know there are loads of issues with it in this prototype and, assuming this is relatively late in development, it'd be much higher priority to finalize the sound drivers themselves before digitizing any new music for it, to avoid having to redo any work, since such reiterations would cost them more time, which they clearly didn't have. Possibility 2: One thing not talked about much is how this prototype actually has the multiplayer mode nearly feature-complete compared to the rest of the game. In game-development oftentimes different tasks are spread apart to smaller groups on the team, and later on, the code is refactored together with the progress from other parts of the team, this is common practice, especially on tight schedules, it's dirty, but it saves time, and thus, saves money. Business, like you said. Because of the nearly feature-complete state of the multiplayer mode on this prototype, it's actually quite possible that this build of the game was taken directly from the people working on the multiplayer mode, before any progress from the other parts of the team were refactored in, since it was at least functional enough to show press at the time.
I thought it was because MJ didn't want to be credited for the music because the Chiptune versions for the game didn't sound good to him. If he chose not to be Credited then wouldn't that mean he has no hold on it? Meaning his legal Team can't do anything about it?
Honestly, possibility #2 makes the most sense, given the conflicting reasons as to why MJ's involvement was ended. The D-Pad's video on this also mentioned that Michael Jackson is given a shoutout in Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection (2009), where it states that he was originally supposed to compose the music, which would seem at odds with the idea that SEGA was trying to disavow anything related to him. It could, however, also be the case that regardless of whether or not MJ wanted to be credited, the fickle nature of licensing music from a collaborator would take a while and that the tracks heard in the prototype were simply backups in case the deal with MJ's people fell through. I would imagine any corporation would be hedging its bets in this manner, especially given how huge Sonic 3's release was shaping to be.
I follow the main composer for that music on Facebook (I don't remember his name off the top of my head) and he gets bothered about that all the time. According to him, its Sega just not showing any interest in the idea of revisiting JSR.
SEGA still can't use the Sonic 1 and 2 music in some cases either - in LEGO Dimensions, for the Sonic Level Pack they had to compose completely original "sound-alike" versions of the music.
It's so bizarre to me that two Sonic-related development stories opened up in the same year (Sonic 3 and the Sonic movie). Sonic as a game brand is teetering on disappearing into nothingness, but every time I think about it, there's incredibly rich lore in the making of Sonic across all these years. Sonic is maybe the most interesting story in games ever.. Gosh, that might be a bit hyper-bolic.
You're not being too hyperbolic. Sega seems to run into this problem, off and on, of weird shortcomings in delvopment. Ken Penders alone is a deep rabbit hole. Speaking of which, if you ever wanted to know what all the hubbub regarding his writing is, here's a good ultmatium of sorts: medium.com/@ponett/i-read-every-sonic-comic-by-ken-penders-and-theyre-wilder-than-you-could-ever-imagine-1f9dd05ae433
more like lawyers need an overhaul. they need to stop being allowed to change the laws and they DEFINITELY need their stranglehold on the entire legal system cut. Nobody involved in profiting from lawsuits should be able to decide how legal disputes are decided, especially making having-a-lawyer so mandatory.
I love that the winamp player is actually playing back the podcast. Good stuff, Sonic 3&K is my childhood and I feel for SEGA. Its a good thing we can still experience the games with fan remakes and stuff!
In regards to Sega possibly owning the full rights to Sonic 1 and 2's music, the Sonic levels in Lego Dimensions and Sonic Forces use original music for zones that are supposed to be from the originals, so it's very likely that Generations was more a temporary license on Sega's part.
Really nice watch. Two things though: a) as mentioned already in these comments, the weird bootleggy versions of Nakamura's tracks in LEGO Dimensions, as well as Nakamura's compositions being missing from all releases of the Sonic Mania OST, indicate he still very much owns the music. He might just have slimmed his rates given Dreams Come True aren't the powerhouse they once were, as far as I can tell anyway. b) in terms of getting a hacker - well, M2. M2 managed to recreate the entirety of Fantasy Zone 2, a Master System game, to System 16 spec *from scratch*, and have it run on actual arcade hardware. Replacing some Mega Drive music would be a walk in the park for them.
The real question is whether they feel it's be worth it to replace the music. As Blaze said, people didn't like a lot of the replacement soundtracks for certain other games. Not everyone would be on board with the prototype soundtrack, even if they knew why they would be used instead of the "finalized" Genesis tracks.
I want to compliment you on these two Sonic 3 videos. Even though I pretty much knew all this stuff already, you present it in an interesting way. Anyway this whole situation just saddens me. We're nearing ten years since Sonic 3 has been re released last, it just makes me question, will this ever get resolved? Or will an amazing game with a huge legacy for Sonic just continue to be swept under the rug by SEGA forever.
You should have mentioned that Roger Hector said that MJ asked to do the soundtrack(as well as how they had discussed with him Sonic 3's story, design, themes, world etc.) and that he had recorded a soundtrack which in his words "fitted all world perfectly" and that in his words "it had to be replaced and that it's a shame nobody will ever hear it". Also should have mentioned that one of the members of MJ's team said they had composed 41 tracks which basically confirms Roger Hector's previous claims about how MJ composed an entire soundtrack. Also should mention that Buxer only claimed he had composed Stranger in Moscow 5-6 months after MJ died which makes him very suspicious. About Sonic CD's songs. They actually got the rights in 2012, that's what I remember reading at Retro. Sega just never bothered to add the songs back into the remaster.
Cool video, I don't think the part where you talk about Sonic hacking being impossibly hard is very valid though considering there has been a dedicated Sonic hacking community for decades now. Sonic ROM hackers have done things like replace level layouts, change art, *change level music* and even create custom bosses and mechanics. Sonic 3 Complete literally has an option in the main menu to replace all of the level music affiliated with MJ with the Sonic and Knuckles versions, ported to the Genesis sound driver by fans out of passion (this was before the S3 prototype was released). The part where you say it wouldn't really be worth it to release a butchered port of S3K is a pretty good point though.
I wonder what the specific terms were for different performances of the music. The MIDI versions were clearly treated differently because of the instrument sounds. They're apparently allowed to use Ice Cap Zone in S3&K since it's still part of Sonic 3, but if the mini-boss theme appeared in later stages it would seemingly require a separate agreement.
Wouldn't the presence of the prototype soundtrack in the PC collection provide an indication that SEGA does have some idea as to who composed what, though?
All it really tells us is that they had some idea as to who composed what around the years '96 and '97 when that PC release was possibly being developed and eventually released. That, of course, was over 20 years ago now, so who knows where all that knowledge may or may not have gone since then or if any of it was documented internally or anything.
I learned a lot from this video about music. I at first wanted to hire a composer or 2 to compose my music for my future video game projects. And for my band to play and record them. But now, I'm considering to make all the music myself. Everything! And my music is VERY Sonic Adventure, Sonic CD and Crush 40 inspired. I'm considering working alone bc of the whole copyright law thing. Like when you said, the composer own the song bc he created it, and the company owns the converted song bc they performed it. To me it sounds like a huge risk of going to court just to see who owns the music. And with my original project I can NOT have ANYONE owning a small piece of my work. I'm pretty stangee could I say.
This video and your original one on the definitive way to play Sonic 3 is a fascinating retrospective-style overview of just how much stuff went into the development and music production of Sonic 3. The rabbit hole goes deeper than I thought, and I already knew about MJ's involvement with Sonic 3's soundtrack (but not stuff like the potential lawsuit and the weird discrepancies between subsequent rereleases).
I don't mind it all that much, since there is a lot of fan stuff to make up for it, like Sonic 3 Complete and Sonic 3 AIR. One can be played on an actual cartridge, and the other is basically the definitive PC release everyone wanted, and because it can only be played if you buy the official PC version, that's the closest we'll get to it, and I think that's pretty cool all things considered. It's not a Taxman port, but it doesn't need to be, it's just as dedicated as if was. Deep down, I'd always rather have new great games (like Sonic Mania), than focusing too much on slightly better re-releases. I'm thankful that this is all even possible in the first place. Some other companies would just release the same game for a fairly large price and shut down any fan-made at attempts at making some kind of updated version of the game. Sonic 3 on PC is cheap and the AIR expansion/mod is easily available and doesn't have the threat of being shutdown.
In the JPN soundtrack for Sonic CD, the opening and ending themes ("You Can Do Anything" and "Cosmic Eternity (Believe in Yourself)") were composed by Casey Hanking, who also did the rapping verses on both songs. Yeah, he's that guy counting from 10 to 1 at the opening. The lead vocalist on both songs is Keiko Utoku. Unfortunately, Casey passed away and was also unable to license the lyrics for either song. For both, this meant the 2011 remake was only allowed to use the instrumentals. Keep in mind, though, that "You Can Do Anything" isn't technically a fully-original song from Casey. He wrote original lyrics and possibly made the new instrumentals by himself, but the song already existed beforehand. It first appeared in the 8-bit versions of Sonic 2 and Sonic Chaos. Either way, though, the actual performances include not only his lyrics but also his voice, so go figure.
I got my hands on the Japanese version of Sonic Mega Collection on the gamecube and it includes the version of the song with the vocals and lyrics. This seems to be last time it was ever included.
Brad Buxer likely owns the performance rights to the drum tracks of the MJ tracks as he did all of the drum programming for those. That is likely why SEGA can't use the songs for the most part.
My biggest take-away from this is that when I finally get the money to hire someone to write music for my game, I'm gonna make sure I have a contract that keeps me able to make re-released of my game without having to negotiate any new deals with the musician.
@@BlazeHedgehog A couple years back I was thinking about this, and what I thought I would want to do is have the contract state that I get the rights to use the music in any in-game format I see fit without any further compensation (re-releases, sequels, get featured in Smash, etc,) and they would retain rights to release the music as just music (albums and such) without having to pay me any royalties. I later thought "that's probably an atypical agreement and it might look bad and/or lead to some bad blood down the road, so when I get to that point I probably should look into what a standard contract is." In all honesty I think it is completely absurd to ever have any facet of a work have to be negotiated to have additional rights to it. If I pay someone to draw some character art I use in the game, I don't have to renegotiate rights for that art every time I re-release the game. I paid you to make the art and now it belongs to me. Why should it be any different for the music?
RE: rebuilding the game to replace the music, Taxman and Stealth had a S3&K prototype all good to go a while back before they worked on Mania and we know they basically rebuild the game instead of using the source code. The fact that both have declined to comment on the status of S3&K following the release of Mania implies it's to do with legal shenanigans like you suggest.
Thank you for tackling the issues with releasing a version of the game with the prototype music. It's always a lot more complicated than you think. Besides, SEGA probably saw that people hated the PC tracks, and probably won't release a version with them ever again, even though we now know they were the original versions of the tracks.
I watched this video over 2 years ago when it came out. Now I'm curious how Sega is going to handle Sonic 3 since it's confirmed to be a part of Sonic Origins collection. I wouldn't be surprised if it's due to Sonic 3 why the project has gone silent, especially since it was said to release before Sonic movie 2 and that doesn't seem like it's gonna happen.
I could definitely see the performance rights being an issue for the low quality voice samples used in Sonic 3 & Knuckles. They weren't really created by Sega, just modified.
It's also important to note that Michael would frequently go uncredited as per request, with the Simpsons episode "Lisa's Birthday" starring Michael as himself [sorta], being the most famous example.
Actually, that episode is called "Stark Raving Dad", and it's been banned a few months ago thanks to the bogus "documentary" Leaving Neverland. I guess Leaving Neverland is probably one of the few reasons as to why we'll never see a complete Sonic 3 Retro engine remaster. Imagine if Taxman, Stealth, and the staff behind Sonic 3 Complete and Sonic 3 A.I.R. were to work on it, it would be like a match made in heaven. But, alas, the probability of that happening is completely unlikely.
@@IvanovIvanAKrutoi oh right, I tried to look smart and fell flat on my face lol. Yeah, it really sucks that it's so hard for people to separate art from artist, especially when it hurts works that the artist made or contributed to. Although I will say, regardless of guilty/not guilty status, Pretty Young Thing is quite uncomfortable to listen to now, even more so than in the 90s...
So basically Sega can only re-release Sonic & Knuckles with/wihout lock-on technology but not associating itself with Sonic 3? Edit: In those Sonic 1 & 2 M2 re-releases it has already been proven that they can get people to modify the roms to do things like adding the spindash to Sonic 1 and a dropdash for both games on the Switch. However, the complex steps are not worth it as described in this video.
My theory for why they ended up using Michael Jackson’s music in the final game is that since The music that is used in the final game that is in the prototype is unfinished, I think that the music that wasn’t used In the final game was also unfinished and they didn’t have enough time to polish it and finish it so they just ended up replacing them with Michael Jackson’s music which was almost finished and put it in the final game.
"Business sucks." - BlazeHedgehog, 2019 You're damn right it sucks! Everything about everything about it sucks! F**k businesses, f**k music licensing, let's burn this s**t to the ground and get the nice things we deserve!
Hacking the game isn't an issue here, since it's pretty easy with the software and knowledge we have now. Even if it is, Christian Whitehead has worked worked with ROMs before, as far as I'm aware, so they wouldn't have search for long. They're just scared of the backlash. Tracks like Ice Cap are just so damn iconic and good, you lose half the fun without them. The best solution to this would be hiring the best Sonic composers to make something even better and include mod support, but it would still be really risky. They could just explain the whole situation somewhere in the credits or something to make the whole thing less severe, but, again, it's really, REALLY risky.
It’s been fun watching these in the days before the release of Sonic Origins, now confirmed to contain Jun Senoue’s remade prototype music for S3&K. To be fair, he’d be the one most trustworthy to handle the job. I’m looking forward to it.
With respect to the Masato Nakamura situation, it might be worth noting that the most recent Sonic movie trailer includes an arrangement of the Green Hill Zone theme.
Ive never played a sonic game other than Generations but i love your writing and your voice is one of the nicest ive heard. Genuinely fascinating stuff
Really love the podcast feel to these videos, would like to see more like this in the future! But it really sucks that due to some business bullcrap and many other problems that Sega can't rerelease this glorious piece in Sonic history. We're honestly lucky they even rereleased Sonic 3 while this was going on and this will probably be the latest release we'll ever get. There's a saying that if you want to earn more money, you have to spend some money. Sonic 3 will most definitely sell because it's one of the best Sonic game in the whole franchise, but with the loyalties they must pay and the allegations from MJ, it's gonna hurt Sega a lot, possibly make them bankrupt (okay, that might not happen) but it wouldn't be the same game if they changed the music. At least there are wonderfully made projects created by hard-working people like Sonic 3 Complete or Sonic 3 A.I.R. An official port won't be coming any time soon, but if it were to happen one day, then they would give it their all and give us the defacto version of Sonic 3.
12:08 Funny because, Yuji Naka himself basically admitted that Michael Jackson worked on the soundtrack the whole time in a tweet. So I wonder what that means for Sega if MJ's Estate finds out about that Yuji Naka tweet.
I highly doubt the TMNT case was an issue of the original composer not allowing the use of his soundtrack, considering it was composed by Mutsuhiko Izumi who is currently still a Konami employee after all these years. And knowing Konami, they have no issue doing whatever they want with their sound team. Just look at the BEMANI Sound Team debacle... which, ironically, Izumi is also a huge part of.
So now starts the battle of the impossibles... which will happen first, Mother 3 getting an official worldwide release or Sonic 3 being re-released? The answer: who the hell cares at this point when some very talented fans picked up the slack and did the work for them. :)
Thanks for the insight on how the music licensing works. It has been something I have wanted to know for sometime now. Does music work differently in movies? Like when they make a new pressing of a DVD or Blu-ray do they have to renegotiate the music rights?
That I'm not so sure of, but I think it's probably just part of the same royalties system that actors get. Famously Rick Moranis quit acting because every time Disney puts "Honey, I Shrunk the Kids" out on VHS, or DVD, or Blu-ray, or even when it just airs on TV, he gets a paycheck for the percentage of sales. Supposedly Capcom made a million dollars every time Street Fighter: The Movie aired on TV (and according to urban legend, it's become the most profitable thing in the Street Fighter franchise as a result). Presumably any musicians involved with the movie get their cut of sales whenever something like that happens. It's just the game industry has notoriously lagged behind on that kind of stuff. Not too long ago, game voice actors actually went on strike briefly because they were demanding film-like royalties for game re-releases. Unionized and everything. Some have said it maybe the first step to more fair payment for game development as a whole. (more reading: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016%E2%80%9317_video_game_voice_actor_strike )
How can it be so difficult with the rights to the prototype/collection music? When you work with a creative job such as a composer for a video game, you typically sign over all rights to anything you create during the time to the company when you get hired. Sega must have had some really unusual business practices.
The situation with Sonic 3 & Knuckles sucks for sure, but you have to look at the one positive aspect of this whole thing; the game is still available on Steam. That means literally anyone with a PC can play it. Everyone with a PC purchased after 2000 (literally) can play Sonic 3 & Knuckles. For that, I am thankful.
Unrelated to the video but I'm noticing that winamp visualizer on the right and it's super cool. Can I ask how you did it? Did you actually capture the program or is it video editing magic?
*GUYS* I've come to make an announcement to y'all (Especially you, BlazeHedgehog) There is a better way to play Sonic 3 instead of Sonic 3 Complete or Sonic 3 AIR. As of right now, there is a mod of Sonic 3 AIR called "Sonic The Hedgehog 3: Angel Island Complete" (or Sonic 3 AIC). It combines all features from both hacks (including easy and normal mode from Sonic Jam, Original zone order (Flying Battery is before Ice Cap and after Carnival Night), 16:9 widescreen, Sonic 1/2 songs (title, extra life, act clear, continue, game over), updated Super/Hyper Sonic sprites when spinning, Flying Battery's background based off of the unused Stage Select icon, Super Peel Out, Drop Dash, Eggrobo in Flying Battery act 2 boss, Act 2 boss theme for Knuckles in Marble Garden act 2 when you fight Eggrobo, etc)
This additional part 2 is good but not as good as part 1's take on the whole Sonic 3 story. 1. Sonic Advance on GBA used some of Masato Nakamura's tunes and there were no legal issues going on then in 2001 which predates Sonic Generations by 11 years. Something you forgot to mention in the video. 2. The (November 3rd Sonic 3 Prototype) predates the final version of Sonic 3 by 3 months and the prototype has no Michael Jackson music or music by any of his 6 collaborators so it's fair to say that MJ and his team were only involved in the last 3 months of working on the game. 3. SEGA can easily re-release Sonic 3 and Sonic 3 & Knuckles again if they really want to, it's not that hard to get an expert Mega Drive-Genesis editor on board to change the entire soundtrack if music licensing is the real problem surrounding Sonic 3. What would be even easier is for SEGA to just create an entirely new port of the game, something like A.I.R. and include a new score. Time constraints is not that much of an issue as it was back in the Mega Drive days, now days we can wait years for a single project to be finished and also there is always (Sonic 3 Complete) and to make that official Sega would have to track down all the people involved and pay them something for it but it is still possible. I hope Sega have learned a valuable lesson with the likes of Sonic 3 when composing and producing an original score to one of their own games. Never outsource the music to free-lancers who work outside SEGA like Masato Nakamura or even Yuzo Koshiro as one day music licensing issues may create a problem and we as the fans are caught in the middle. If they do get outsiders to make the music to their games, they sould make sure that they sign legal agreements in Sega's favour. Far easier though to just stick to in-house composers who work for SEGA, that way SEGA own all the music period.
I plan on it, but I got a little bit burnt out by putting this video together... and then 2020 has been what it is. Been hard to find creative motivation. But I've got something cooking. I dunno how many people are gonna like it, but it's a script I wrote years ago and something I wanted to do for a while.
It's so unbelievable to hear that Sonic 3 was rushed, it always seemed like they went above and beyond with it, put as much care and attention to details as possible. Sonic 2 was the one that felt rushed even though it spent over double as long in development as Sonic 3, definitely my least favorite among the Genesis series. Probably because it wasn't developed by the original Japanese Sonic Team staff and instead outsourced to Sega's American division. Japanese devs sure know how to crunch for tight deadlines and still deliver top notch quality.
*After 50 years* Me as and adult in 2059: YES FINALLY, THE SONIC 3 RETRO ENGINE WILL BE MADE- Wait. Oh. They're old. Lets just wait for the other family to take place and make them.
I thought of a possible way that they could release the game with the prototype music. Have the crew behind the mobile releases of Sonic 1 and 2 to make Sonic 3 and Knuckles from the ground, but then replace the soundtrack for the prototype one.
Unfortunately I don't think that's possible. Stealth isn't currently working with Taxman right now, and Taxman helped open a new studio called Evening Star that seems to be focusing other, non-Sonic projects. Evening Star might be too big to handle a simple remake of Sonic 3 & Knuckles.
You mentioned that they'd need someone to hack the music in and that's true for any emulated releases but what about for a Taxman and Stealth Sonic 3 remaster? Replacing music in the Retro Engine literally is just dropping some files in a folder. When I saw the Prototype, I was really hoping now there might finally be a way to get that remaster to see the light of day.
Taxman has helped start a new game development studio called Evening Star, and they seem to be working on other, non-Sonic projects. After the outrageous financial success of Sonic Mania, they might be too "big" to do a simple port/remake of Sonic 3 anymore.
All of this would explain what I saw a few years ago when I worked at Walmart. I saw one of the crappy AtGames Genesis consoles and noticed that they had Sonic 1, Sonic 2, Sonic & Knuckles but no Sonic 3. I thought that was strange.
Director: Lead Sound Designer, we have a problem, the current music driver keeps failing and the songs are not playing at all, what are we gonna do? Lead Sound Designer: Ahhhh don't worry, I'll roll back a few snapshots to a working one, both sound driver and good music *game gets released* Director: Ahhhh, what a good game Lead Sound Designer, thanks so much for the work! Lead Sound Designer: No problem, I enjoyed directing the music Director: What music did you go with anyways? Lead Sound Designer: The Michael Jackson snapshot we had Director: YOU WHAT? this isn't probably how it happened but I still like to believe they ACCIDENTALLY released the MJ version of the music
I think I've figured it out. Sega probably didn't own the rights to use Masa's music either, until 2011 when they made Sonic Generations and ended the legal conflict. However, while Sonic 1 & 2's music came from Masa, the legal rights to Sonic 3's music were far too complicated and expensive to settle, and Sega decided to shelve Sonic 3 & Knuckles forever, out of fear that the Jackson estate would likely not be as forgiving as Masa was. I doubt they lost the rights entirely to release the game, or else the Wii, Xbox 360, and Steam versions would have been pulled. Sega is probably just afraid of the damage that could be done to them and doesn't feel like it is their responsibility to make up for their past mistakes.
I want to just provide my interpretation here: *ON THE PROTOTYPES * First of all, I would like to just point out that the November 3rd, 1993 (1103) prototype isn’t the very first prototype discovered as these were out far before it: Nov 20th,1993 (1120), EPROM, 3C 0408, and 3C 0517 prototypes were all released before 1103 was uncovered in 2019. About your point of us not knowing the creators of the prototype soundtrack- truth is we actually kind of do, 1103 and 1120 were built about a week apart and 1120 has Michael’s tracks. Looking at the build dates effectively confirms that Jackson got involved after 1103, and since 1103’s tracks were reused in 1997’s Sonic & Knuckles Collection which swapped out Michael’s which came after 1103 Michael's No legal issues have popped up regarding Sonic & Knuckles Collection even to this day, so we can safely conclude Sega’s In- House sound team composed 1103’s music tracks. Also 1103 and 1120 were built a year prior to Sonic 3’s release 1103 being built November 3rd, 1993 and the final release on May 27th,1994. *ABOUT SPINBALLS MUSIC CHANGE * Thing about this is that the instruments are different from Sonic 1’s taking on more of a Punk-Rock/Heavy Metal feel than the pop version used in Sonic 1, this is mainly due to the instruments used. This gives the song a different sound and thus feel, thus meaning it’s a different performance of the song than how it was performed in Sonic 1. Though technically, this kind of breaks down the argument being made here that “Sega can’t use Jackson’s Music because of legal issues” They could defend themselves in the case of the following themes as they were the only performances around at the time: -Ending (Stranger in Moscow, Produced: 1991, Sonic 3’s Rendition: 1994, Official Release: 1997) -Icecap Zone (Hard Times, Produced: 1980s (Don’t have an exact year will update when found), Sonic 3’s Rendition: 1994, Official Release: 2008.) The reason for this is because until there official releases Sonic 3 was the only performance of the songs as they otherwise were unreleased. Though I will say I do find it interesting you bring up Spinball as it uses GEMS (Genesis Editor for Music and Sound Effects) as I believe it’s possible the prototype songs used it or an earlier version of it. Also If I recall correctly Sonic Spinball was released while Sonic & Knuckles was still in development and since Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles were meant to be one game it’s not too out of the realm of possibility that Sonic 3 used an earlier version of GEMS. *Sega did admit it, three times. * I have to say I think one of two options are available here as I think Jackson’s record label either: 1. Allowed him to do work for Sonic 3. or 2. Didn’t care if he did (After all they could’ve taken a cut of Micheal's pay for Sonic 3) Plus to my knowledge they never pegged Sega even after Sega publicly announced Jackson would work on the game in 1993 before rescinding the statement. Same with back in the 2000s when fans began to speculate I remember they confirmed it again but rescinded the statement. Finally they fully admitted it in Sonic’s Ultimate Genesis Collection in the “Did you know?” segment for Sonic 3 which states: “-Michael Jackson was originally intended to work on Sonic 3’s Soundtrack” So basically they did admit to it three times. *ABOUT THE PROTO TRACKS/PREFRENCES* I can’t truthfully speak for everyone about which tracks are preferred but I can definitely say that one thing is clear- People want Sonic 3. So like it or not, if we really want this game we will have to give up Michael's music, which I know some people will dislike hearing but it’s the truth, and truth be told- it’s technically not even a loss since Modding exists. This meaning the tracks will likely be restored within a week of a re-release coming out. However I will fully admit this- I’ve seen people say if the tracks were swapped out they wouldn’t buy the re-release of the game, which I just have to remind these people again-modding community. Plus, why not? I would just like to remind you that there are various re-releases of these same tracks: -Rips on UA-cam (Both Intended, and S3 Performances) -Digital Versions (Usually don’t cost much for them, even then you can accumulate them over time) -Physical Releases (Again usually not much cost for them little higher than digital versions but still) -Singles (Hard Times, Jam, You Rock My World/Just Good Friends, Stranger in Moscow, etc.) Plus I feel like the reason people don’t like these versions of the tracks was because of the Sonic & Knuckles Collection, because I’ll admit I’m not much for the MIDI versions. I honestly implore you all listen to them and reconsider Besides that I will retract my statement about it being easy to swap out the music tracks as it’s easy to swap them but making them actually work right is a whole other thing. I just tried swapping out Sonic 3’s AIZ for Sonic 2’s EHZ and not only did it not play, but MGZ and HCZ’s music became corrupted this likely means there’s a dependency in Angel Island Zone music that Hydrocity and Marble Garden rely on- a sample perhaps?, still given time I’m sure fans can make the prototype music work. *IN CONCLUSION * I think there’s a few ways that Sega can get Sonic 3 back even if they can’t use prototype tracks, get Tee Lopes in as a “For Hire” commission and not only would Sega get good music but they’d also own the rights as in a “For Hire” commission the creator (Tee) makes the music but the commissioner (Sega) owns the rights. They could buy the rights of Leila “Woofle” Wilson’s Alternate OST, that she made for the game, she also composed the OST for the Sonic-Inspired indie game: Freedom Planet, and it’s sequel so I don’t think it’s too far of a stretch to say she’s a fan. They could partner up with the people who made Mania since they were a part of the Sonic Retro community and use mutual connections from both sides and using their in-house sound team. They can then replace Michael’s tracks with their own original compositions then convert them to be used on the Genesis and boom now they have a version of Sonic 3 that they effectively can freely use. As for those who prefer Michael’s tracks pop that baby on PC and they’ll be back in a week thanks to modders, they could even replace the offending steam version. Honestly I don’t personally think removing Michael’s tracks is a big loss, they’re good tracks but I can live without ‘em it doesn’t really affect my experience though I suppose I gotta consider the bigger picture as well we’re talking about porting the game for everyone. So upon thinking harder than I should about this, this is the idea I came up with: Sega replaces Michael’s soundtrack with the 1103 Soundtrack, since based on the fact that the tracks were swapped out in the Sonic & Knuckles Collection, with no legal threats being made since release in 1997. That and it was built the week before Michael’s Visit and since 1120 is the first instance of Michael’s tracks in the game. Then contact the label and team Micheal made and tell them they can sell a patch that restores Micheal’s tracks to Sonic 3 which they and only they can charge for finally freeing sonic 3 from it’s legal trouble while letting Sega re-release the new version.
Wow. This is a LOT, and I mean a LOT of nitpicky hair-splitting. Like after a certain point I just gave up because you are EXTREMELY PEDANTIC about itty bitty teensy tiny little details. I understand that sometimes that stuff matters, but some of what you call me out on here is a little beyond the pale for me.
@@BlazeHedgehog I apologize for calling you out that wasn't of my intention and I must have been angry when I wrote this, I should've taken the time to refute the points made here calmly. I will be editing this to do so, I'll be honest: I just find the legal troubles behind Sonic 3 Frustrating the game should be given the right to be re-released. Again I apologize for the offending you, my main goal was to provide evidence that refuted the points made here but also to state the fact that Sega made the proto tracks thus could use them given the need-be. Edit: Will have to edit the comment tomorrow since it's night where I am and I'm hearing birds, not a good sign.
I don't think Sega owns the music or even bought the rights from Nakamura. In Generations' case, they probably just asked him for permission to do remixes. Also, I should point out that the exact same thing already happened before with Sonic Adventure 2 (where you unlock Green Hill by collecting all emblems) and Sonic Advance (Fun fact: there's an Android port of Advance that's available for free but only came out in Japan, this port replaced the music from Sonic 1 & 2 with the music from Sonic 4).
![Sonic & Knuckles LOST BITS | Unused Content & Debug Features [TetraBitGaming]](/img/n.gif)
I guess you could say that when it comes to re-releasing Sonic 3, Sega would have some... hard times
You've been hit by, you've been struck by... a copyright strike
*slow clap*
Soni are you ok?
Happiest days of my life
Lol
11:00 Well if we check the music copyright for Super Smash Bros. Ultimate on the songs Green Hill Zone, Scrap Brain Zone, and Emerald Hill Zone, it says that the songs are still copyrighted by Masato Nakamura, so Sega still probably has to pay some royalties whenever Green Hill and other songs are ever used.
The Green Hill stages in the Olympic games uses the Splash Hill music instead
Green Hill in Lego Dimensions is a completely new song
In addition, the OST for Sonic Mania at Spotify was also missing the songs from Sonic 1 and 2. The whole OST got removed since then, but I doubt that's related since the same also happened to Sonic Rush and Sonic Generations Disc 2 and 3 for no apparent reason.
@@magma1264 And Sonic Forces used entirely original songs, the only exceptions being for Episode Shadow
@@Morskip It's not just Spotify; the Sonic 1/2 remixes are missing on every version of the soundtrack
Thinking about it like this, I actually feel bad for SEGA. I talked with Aaron Webber at SXSW 2019, and he pretty much implied without saying straight up, that he wants Sonic 3 to come out again but they can’t. I hope everything gets cleared up someday
One day the game will come back to light
Well sonic origins seems to have retro engine ports of all 4 genesis sonic games (sonic 1, 2, 3 and sonic and knuckles)
Your wish came true.
Fantastic video, as always.
shame we'll never get an official sonic 3 & knuckles, it's my favorite in the trilogy. the storytelling in that game is phenomenal.
Lawsuit will expire after a person, the maker, dies 50 year later, if im not mistaken. Its like the TLOZ 1 title issue.
I'm playing the game rn on my phone on an emulator good game I hav to say
@av rmx i mean a full on remake, with wide screen.
@@ALtheBoi At least we have sonic 3 AIR
@Kailem the Hedgehog There's always exagear emulator
I literally just watched part 1 for the first time 20 mins ago lol
Me too!
Like 3 hours ago
I know, right!
I watched it this morning
Me as well
12:59 Alright, you're going a bit off the rails with speculation. Yes, porting the music takes more skill than the average code monkey, but keep in mind that Sega already has M2 under their belt AND they've welcomed members of the community to help them before. I think your second explanation makes a lot more sense. Also, there's still the possibility that they'd get brought to court by undead MJ's hounds even if all the music is replaced just because they don't know any better or because there's some other legal knot.
I agree, i don't buy all this speculation. Everyone re release old games with a modern engine or emulation. They have 2 studios who done it with the other Sonic games (hell even the music licensing from Sonic CD debunk his speculation). Why not just re use Sonic 1 and 2 music, or compose new ones if they CANT use none of the Sound Tracks of 3?I'm positive they just don't port it for a different reason. Technical reasons and licensing is easy to work around (Hell, Quake has the same Music hell licensing and yet it is on Steam with no music). Sega with the mods would easily make all the money they would invest in edit the original game with a new OST AND The mods would re add it without legal issues for them. Just as ID done with Quake.
Damn I was right as hell.
At this point, I'm satisfied enough that we have Sonic AIR regardless, but I do have some thoughtful speculation on the situation.
We all agree MJ and his crew were involved in Sonic 3, but the timelines don't add up (or people think they don't, at least) but I believe that this can be explained rather easily though in a number of ways.
Possibility 1: See, as you said in your video there's a process by which songs were adapted from source recordings to digitized synthesizer data (chiptunes), it's possible that Sonic 3 was going through so much difficulty in development that the sound engine people were a little too busy making sure the game's audio drivers weren't full of bugs. We know there are loads of issues with it in this prototype and, assuming this is relatively late in development, it'd be much higher priority to finalize the sound drivers themselves before digitizing any new music for it, to avoid having to redo any work, since such reiterations would cost them more time, which they clearly didn't have.
Possibility 2: One thing not talked about much is how this prototype actually has the multiplayer mode nearly feature-complete compared to the rest of the game. In game-development oftentimes different tasks are spread apart to smaller groups on the team, and later on, the code is refactored together with the progress from other parts of the team, this is common practice, especially on tight schedules, it's dirty, but it saves time, and thus, saves money. Business, like you said. Because of the nearly feature-complete state of the multiplayer mode on this prototype, it's actually quite possible that this build of the game was taken directly from the people working on the multiplayer mode, before any progress from the other parts of the team were refactored in, since it was at least functional enough to show press at the time.
I thought it was because MJ didn't want to be credited for the music because the Chiptune versions for the game didn't sound good to him.
If he chose not to be Credited then wouldn't that mean he has no hold on it?
Meaning his legal Team can't do anything about it?
Honestly, possibility #2 makes the most sense, given the conflicting reasons as to why MJ's involvement was ended. The D-Pad's video on this also mentioned that Michael Jackson is given a shoutout in Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection (2009), where it states that he was originally supposed to compose the music, which would seem at odds with the idea that SEGA was trying to disavow anything related to him. It could, however, also be the case that regardless of whether or not MJ wanted to be credited, the fickle nature of licensing music from a collaborator would take a while and that the tracks heard in the prototype were simply backups in case the deal with MJ's people fell through. I would imagine any corporation would be hedging its bets in this manner, especially given how huge Sonic 3's release was shaping to be.
@@zeusthefox1585 MJ having an issue with chiptune always odd to me when games like Moonwalker are taken into account.
"We all agree MJ and his crew were involved in Sonic 3"
I don't agree.
@@nogodcansaveyou why
The Definitive Way to Play Sonic 3 - Part 2 (Supplemental Podcast)
And Knuckles
Sonic The UWU Hedgehog
More roleplaying names...
I wonder if this is why we never got a remaster/port of Jet Set Radio Future. That would suck.
I follow the main composer for that music on Facebook (I don't remember his name off the top of my head) and he gets bothered about that all the time. According to him, its Sega just not showing any interest in the idea of revisiting JSR.
@@HowPettyful put some respect on Hideki Naganuma's name though
@@jordanmynes2638 no
Even the original Jet Set Radio’s HD port wasn’t spared this. There are some missing regionally exclusive songs that didn’t make it into that version.
@@jordanmynes2638 I love naganuma's music
SEGA still can't use the Sonic 1 and 2 music in some cases either - in LEGO Dimensions, for the Sonic Level Pack they had to compose completely original "sound-alike" versions of the music.
Lu9 see 7:40
It's so bizarre to me that two Sonic-related development stories opened up in the same year (Sonic 3 and the Sonic movie). Sonic as a game brand is teetering on disappearing into nothingness, but every time I think about it, there's incredibly rich lore in the making of Sonic across all these years. Sonic is maybe the most interesting story in games ever.. Gosh, that might be a bit hyper-bolic.
THERE'S SO MANY WRINKLES TO "SONIC THE HEDGEHOG"
You're not being too hyperbolic. Sega seems to run into this problem, off and on, of weird shortcomings in delvopment. Ken Penders alone is a deep rabbit hole.
Speaking of which, if you ever wanted to know what all the hubbub regarding his writing is, here's a good ultmatium of sorts:
medium.com/@ponett/i-read-every-sonic-comic-by-ken-penders-and-theyre-wilder-than-you-could-ever-imagine-1f9dd05ae433
@DPlex HD Oh yeah. Truer words have never been spoken.
It's so annoying how overprotected music is. Music licensing needs an overhaul.
Yeah it really does. And Article 13 does not help this in the slightest. The grip industry has on music gets tighter and tighter all the time.
more like lawyers need an overhaul. they need to stop being allowed to change the laws and they DEFINITELY need their stranglehold on the entire legal system cut. Nobody involved in profiting from lawsuits should be able to decide how legal disputes are decided, especially making having-a-lawyer so mandatory.
Well the morden music industry is terrible name one hood music that came out after 2013
son the modern music industry is_dead_ since 2013
it's been *terrible* since the 90s
@@KairuHakubi I would have said that but theres been some good moments after the 90s
I love that the winamp player is actually playing back the podcast.
Good stuff, Sonic 3&K is my childhood and I feel for SEGA. Its a good thing we can still experience the games with fan remakes and stuff!
In regards to Sega possibly owning the full rights to Sonic 1 and 2's music, the Sonic levels in Lego Dimensions and Sonic Forces use original music for zones that are supposed to be from the originals, so it's very likely that Generations was more a temporary license on Sega's part.
This is like a sonic 3 documentary i like watching these we need sonic 3 now
Kinda ironic the fact that you and Sonic 3's developers had similar time constraints
this video is sponsored by McDonalds since he didnt miss the deadline
Really nice watch. Two things though:
a) as mentioned already in these comments, the weird bootleggy versions of Nakamura's tracks in LEGO Dimensions, as well as Nakamura's compositions being missing from all releases of the Sonic Mania OST, indicate he still very much owns the music. He might just have slimmed his rates given Dreams Come True aren't the powerhouse they once were, as far as I can tell anyway.
b) in terms of getting a hacker - well, M2. M2 managed to recreate the entirety of Fantasy Zone 2, a Master System game, to System 16 spec *from scratch*, and have it run on actual arcade hardware. Replacing some Mega Drive music would be a walk in the park for them.
The real question is whether they feel it's be worth it to replace the music.
As Blaze said, people didn't like a lot of the replacement soundtracks for certain other games. Not everyone would be on board with the prototype soundtrack, even if they knew why they would be used instead of the "finalized" Genesis tracks.
@@GmNdWtchr96 It's THREE levels. I'd take having three levels out of like twelve get their music changed to have the game ported.
I really NEED "The Definitive Way to Play SONIC HEROES"
I want to compliment you on these two Sonic 3 videos. Even though I pretty much knew all this stuff already, you present it in an interesting way.
Anyway this whole situation just saddens me. We're nearing ten years since Sonic 3 has been re released last, it just makes me question, will this ever get resolved? Or will an amazing game with a huge legacy for Sonic just continue to be swept under the rug by SEGA forever.
>by *sega forever*
Was this intentional?
@@marx4538 Yeah.....let's go with that.
Sonic Mega Collection is the best because it has near perfect emulations of all the Genesis games, and feels great with GameCube/ps2 controller
You should have mentioned that Roger Hector said that MJ asked to do the soundtrack(as well as how they had discussed with him Sonic 3's story, design, themes, world etc.) and that he had recorded a soundtrack which in his words "fitted all world perfectly" and that in his words "it had to be replaced and that it's a shame nobody will ever hear it".
Also should have mentioned that one of the members of MJ's team said they had composed 41 tracks which basically confirms Roger Hector's previous claims about how MJ composed an entire soundtrack.
Also should mention that Buxer only claimed he had composed Stranger in Moscow 5-6 months after MJ died which makes him very suspicious.
About Sonic CD's songs. They actually got the rights in 2012, that's what I remember reading at Retro. Sega just never bothered to add the songs back into the remaster.
*2 years later they made Sonic Origins with changed music, problem solved*
I find your speeches about business and Sonic very soothing. 😎
Cool video, I don't think the part where you talk about Sonic hacking being impossibly hard is very valid though considering there has been a dedicated Sonic hacking community for decades now. Sonic ROM hackers have done things like replace level layouts, change art, *change level music* and even create custom bosses and mechanics. Sonic 3 Complete literally has an option in the main menu to replace all of the level music affiliated with MJ with the Sonic and Knuckles versions, ported to the Genesis sound driver by fans out of passion (this was before the S3 prototype was released). The part where you say it wouldn't really be worth it to release a butchered port of S3K is a pretty good point though.
I wonder what the specific terms were for different performances of the music. The MIDI versions were clearly treated differently because of the instrument sounds. They're apparently allowed to use Ice Cap Zone in S3&K since it's still part of Sonic 3, but if the mini-boss theme appeared in later stages it would seemingly require a separate agreement.
Wouldn't the presence of the prototype soundtrack in the PC collection provide an indication that SEGA does have some idea as to who composed what, though?
All it really tells us is that they had some idea as to who composed what around the years '96 and '97 when that PC release was possibly being developed and eventually released. That, of course, was over 20 years ago now, so who knows where all that knowledge may or may not have gone since then or if any of it was documented internally or anything.
Licentious Howler One can hope... one can hope.
Or they could just pay the MJ team and be done with it
I learned a lot from this video about music. I at first wanted to hire a composer or 2 to compose my music for my future video game projects. And for my band to play and record them. But now, I'm considering to make all the music myself. Everything! And my music is VERY Sonic Adventure, Sonic CD and Crush 40 inspired. I'm considering working alone bc of the whole copyright law thing. Like when you said, the composer own the song bc he created it, and the company owns the converted song bc they performed it. To me it sounds like a huge risk of going to court just to see who owns the music. And with my original project I can NOT have ANYONE owning a small piece of my work. I'm pretty stangee could I say.
This video and your original one on the definitive way to play Sonic 3 is a fascinating retrospective-style overview of just how much stuff went into the development and music production of Sonic 3. The rabbit hole goes deeper than I thought, and I already knew about MJ's involvement with Sonic 3's soundtrack (but not stuff like the potential lawsuit and the weird discrepancies between subsequent rereleases).
I don't mind it all that much, since there is a lot of fan stuff to make up for it, like Sonic 3 Complete and Sonic 3 AIR.
One can be played on an actual cartridge, and the other is basically the definitive PC release everyone wanted, and because it can only be played if you buy the official PC version, that's the closest we'll get to it, and I think that's pretty cool all things considered. It's not a Taxman port, but it doesn't need to be, it's just as dedicated as if was.
Deep down, I'd always rather have new great games (like Sonic Mania), than focusing too much on slightly better re-releases.
I'm thankful that this is all even possible in the first place. Some other companies would just release the same game for a fairly large price and shut down any fan-made at attempts at making some kind of updated version of the game.
Sonic 3 on PC is cheap and the AIR expansion/mod is easily available and doesn't have the threat of being shutdown.
Yeah, and modding consoles to emulate these is always inevitable anyways. That's how I like playing S3C the most, on my Wii and my PSP.
In the JPN soundtrack for Sonic CD, the opening and ending themes ("You Can Do Anything" and "Cosmic Eternity (Believe in Yourself)") were composed by Casey Hanking, who also did the rapping verses on both songs. Yeah, he's that guy counting from 10 to 1 at the opening. The lead vocalist on both songs is Keiko Utoku. Unfortunately, Casey passed away and was also unable to license the lyrics for either song. For both, this meant the 2011 remake was only allowed to use the instrumentals.
Keep in mind, though, that "You Can Do Anything" isn't technically a fully-original song from Casey. He wrote original lyrics and possibly made the new instrumentals by himself, but the song already existed beforehand. It first appeared in the 8-bit versions of Sonic 2 and Sonic Chaos. Either way, though, the actual performances include not only his lyrics but also his voice, so go figure.
I got my hands on the Japanese version of Sonic Mega Collection on the gamecube and it includes the version of the song with the vocals and lyrics. This seems to be last time it was ever included.
I’m hearing your voice for the first time, and it’s so soothing. I love it
Brad Buxer likely owns the performance rights to the drum tracks of the MJ tracks as he did all of the drum programming for those. That is likely why SEGA can't use the songs for the most part.
My biggest take-away from this is that when I finally get the money to hire someone to write music for my game, I'm gonna make sure I have a contract that keeps me able to make re-released of my game without having to negotiate any new deals with the musician.
Pretty much, yeah, but I wonder how easy that would be. I'd assume there would be a lot of musicians that *want* to keep the rights to their music.
@@BlazeHedgehog A couple years back I was thinking about this, and what I thought I would want to do is have the contract state that I get the rights to use the music in any in-game format I see fit without any further compensation (re-releases, sequels, get featured in Smash, etc,) and they would retain rights to release the music as just music (albums and such) without having to pay me any royalties.
I later thought "that's probably an atypical agreement and it might look bad and/or lead to some bad blood down the road, so when I get to that point I probably should look into what a standard contract is."
In all honesty I think it is completely absurd to ever have any facet of a work have to be negotiated to have additional rights to it. If I pay someone to draw some character art I use in the game, I don't have to renegotiate rights for that art every time I re-release the game. I paid you to make the art and now it belongs to me. Why should it be any different for the music?
M2 is the company that does the best adaptations.
that demo version of emerald hill sure is jazzy
RE: rebuilding the game to replace the music, Taxman and Stealth had a S3&K prototype all good to go a while back before they worked on Mania and we know they basically rebuild the game instead of using the source code. The fact that both have declined to comment on the status of S3&K following the release of Mania implies it's to do with legal shenanigans like you suggest.
Thank you for tackling the issues with releasing a version of the game with the prototype music. It's always a lot more complicated than you think. Besides, SEGA probably saw that people hated the PC tracks, and probably won't release a version with them ever again, even though we now know they were the original versions of the tracks.
Do you know if those songs made it in Sonic Origins?
I watched this video over 2 years ago when it came out. Now I'm curious how Sega is going to handle Sonic 3 since it's confirmed to be a part of Sonic Origins collection. I wouldn't be surprised if it's due to Sonic 3 why the project has gone silent, especially since it was said to release before Sonic movie 2 and that doesn't seem like it's gonna happen.
Wow, the original version of Emerald Hill's theme is FIRE!
Wow that was fast, i though Sonic 3 (Nov 4, 1993 prototype) was going to left out of this.
I could definitely see the performance rights being an issue for the low quality voice samples used in Sonic 3 & Knuckles. They weren't really created by Sega, just modified.
It's also important to note that Michael would frequently go uncredited as per request, with the Simpsons episode "Lisa's Birthday" starring Michael as himself [sorta], being the most famous example.
Actually, that episode is called "Stark Raving Dad", and it's been banned a few months ago thanks to the bogus "documentary" Leaving Neverland.
I guess Leaving Neverland is probably one of the few reasons as to why we'll never see a complete Sonic 3 Retro engine remaster. Imagine if Taxman, Stealth, and the staff behind Sonic 3 Complete and Sonic 3 A.I.R. were to work on it, it would be like a match made in heaven. But, alas, the probability of that happening is completely unlikely.
@@IvanovIvanAKrutoi oh right, I tried to look smart and fell flat on my face lol. Yeah, it really sucks that it's so hard for people to separate art from artist, especially when it hurts works that the artist made or contributed to. Although I will say, regardless of guilty/not guilty status, Pretty Young Thing is quite uncomfortable to listen to now, even more so than in the 90s...
So basically Sega can only re-release Sonic & Knuckles with/wihout lock-on technology but not associating itself with Sonic 3?
Edit: In those Sonic 1 & 2 M2 re-releases it has already been proven that they can get people to modify the roms to do things like adding the spindash to Sonic 1 and a dropdash for both games on the Switch. However, the complex steps are not worth it as described in this video.
My theory for why they ended up using Michael Jackson’s music in the final game is that since The music that is used in the final game that is in the prototype is unfinished, I think that the music that wasn’t used In the final game was also unfinished and they didn’t have enough time to polish it and finish it so they just ended up replacing them with Michael Jackson’s music which was almost finished and put it in the final game.
If Sega needs someone to code in music, Lone Devil's your man.
"Business sucks." - BlazeHedgehog, 2019
You're damn right it sucks! Everything about everything about it sucks! F**k businesses, f**k music licensing, let's burn this s**t to the ground and get the nice things we deserve!
Hacking the game isn't an issue here, since it's pretty easy with the software and knowledge we have now. Even if it is, Christian Whitehead has worked worked with ROMs before, as far as I'm aware, so they wouldn't have search for long.
They're just scared of the backlash. Tracks like Ice Cap are just so damn iconic and good, you lose half the fun without them. The best solution to this would be hiring the best Sonic composers to make something even better and include mod support, but it would still be really risky. They could just explain the whole situation somewhere in the credits or something to make the whole thing less severe, but, again, it's really, REALLY risky.
The Fox No one wants Launch Base Zone removed.
Ah, Sonic 3 is in one of my favorite sonic games. I hope it re-releases on Nintendo Switch Online
Normal Wedding: Music plays and is soothing
my wedding: 9:50
It’s been fun watching these in the days before the release of Sonic Origins, now confirmed to contain Jun Senoue’s remade prototype music for S3&K. To be fair, he’d be the one most trustworthy to handle the job. I’m looking forward to it.
That aged horribly...
With respect to the Masato Nakamura situation, it might be worth noting that the most recent Sonic movie trailer includes an arrangement of the Green Hill Zone theme.
9:31 Disco Hill act 1
Thank you very much!
I've been looking for it and couldn't find it amongst all these musics...
Sounds like the better high end version for sonic 2 java mobile
Great, now I'm fearing Sega's potential bankruptcy
Thanks for covering this so thoroughly. I've been following it on Sonic Retro since it was released.
I really enjoyed this video, informative but no where near boring. Keep it up :)
Very informative videos with a lot of effort. Good job
Sonic 3 AIR: best way to play a classic.
Sonic 3 Complete: Best way to play if you have a emulator.
Ive never played a sonic game other than Generations but i love your writing and your voice is one of the nicest ive heard. Genuinely fascinating stuff
I feel like the music licensing process needs to change
This situations sucks, this is how great games get forgotten, Sonic 3 deserves better than to fall in obscurity!
I hope there'll be an official rerelease
the sonic 1 and 2 music theory doesn't really check out though because official remixes of the green hill theme were made before sonic generations
Really love the podcast feel to these videos, would like to see more like this in the future!
But it really sucks that due to some business bullcrap and many other problems that Sega can't rerelease this glorious piece in Sonic history. We're honestly lucky they even rereleased Sonic 3 while this was going on and this will probably be the latest release we'll ever get. There's a saying that if you want to earn more money, you have to spend some money. Sonic 3 will most definitely sell because it's one of the best Sonic game in the whole franchise, but with the loyalties they must pay and the allegations from MJ, it's gonna hurt Sega a lot, possibly make them bankrupt (okay, that might not happen) but it wouldn't be the same game if they changed the music. At least there are wonderfully made projects created by hard-working people like Sonic 3 Complete or Sonic 3 A.I.R. An official port won't be coming any time soon, but if it were to happen one day, then they would give it their all and give us the defacto version of Sonic 3.
12:08 Funny because, Yuji Naka himself basically admitted that Michael Jackson worked on the soundtrack the whole time in a tweet. So I wonder what that means for Sega if MJ's Estate finds out about that Yuji Naka tweet.
13:48 purple knackils
9:30 Not gonna lie now im curious if there is more demos out there before it was translated cause it sounds really good on its own.
There's a whole album! Everything he wrote for Sonic 1 and 2. ua-cam.com/video/gWu1iZRyxw4/v-deo.html
I highly doubt the TMNT case was an issue of the original composer not allowing the use of his soundtrack, considering it was composed by Mutsuhiko Izumi who is currently still a Konami employee after all these years. And knowing Konami, they have no issue doing whatever they want with their sound team. Just look at the BEMANI Sound Team debacle... which, ironically, Izumi is also a huge part of.
So now starts the battle of the impossibles... which will happen first, Mother 3 getting an official worldwide release or Sonic 3 being re-released?
The answer: who the hell cares at this point when some very talented fans picked up the slack and did the work for them. :)
Thanks for the insight on how the music licensing works. It has been something I have wanted to know for sometime now. Does music work differently in movies? Like when they make a new pressing of a DVD or Blu-ray do they have to renegotiate the music rights?
That I'm not so sure of, but I think it's probably just part of the same royalties system that actors get. Famously Rick Moranis quit acting because every time Disney puts "Honey, I Shrunk the Kids" out on VHS, or DVD, or Blu-ray, or even when it just airs on TV, he gets a paycheck for the percentage of sales. Supposedly Capcom made a million dollars every time Street Fighter: The Movie aired on TV (and according to urban legend, it's become the most profitable thing in the Street Fighter franchise as a result). Presumably any musicians involved with the movie get their cut of sales whenever something like that happens.
It's just the game industry has notoriously lagged behind on that kind of stuff. Not too long ago, game voice actors actually went on strike briefly because they were demanding film-like royalties for game re-releases. Unionized and everything. Some have said it maybe the first step to more fair payment for game development as a whole. (more reading: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016%E2%80%9317_video_game_voice_actor_strike )
How can it be so difficult with the rights to the prototype/collection music? When you work with a creative job such as a composer for a video game, you typically sign over all rights to anything you create during the time to the company when you get hired. Sega must have had some really unusual business practices.
The situation with Sonic 3 & Knuckles sucks for sure, but you have to look at the one positive aspect of this whole thing; the game is still available on Steam. That means literally anyone with a PC can play it. Everyone with a PC purchased after 2000 (literally) can play Sonic 3 & Knuckles. For that, I am thankful.
Unrelated to the video but I'm noticing that winamp visualizer on the right and it's super cool. Can I ask how you did it? Did you actually capture the program or is it video editing magic?
I literally just captured a Winamp window. :p I still use it to listen to all my music
*GUYS*
I've come to make an announcement to y'all (Especially you, BlazeHedgehog)
There is a better way to play Sonic 3 instead of Sonic 3 Complete or Sonic 3 AIR.
As of right now, there is a mod of Sonic 3 AIR called "Sonic The Hedgehog 3: Angel Island Complete" (or Sonic 3 AIC). It combines all features from both hacks (including easy and normal mode from Sonic Jam, Original zone order (Flying Battery is before Ice Cap and after Carnival Night), 16:9 widescreen, Sonic 1/2 songs (title, extra life, act clear, continue, game over), updated Super/Hyper Sonic sprites when spinning, Flying Battery's background based off of the unused Stage Select icon, Super Peel Out, Drop Dash, Eggrobo in Flying Battery act 2 boss, Act 2 boss theme for Knuckles in Marble Garden act 2 when you fight Eggrobo, etc)
10:35 Should Robotnik's face even be there btw?
I can't stress enough how much you sound like Snot from American Dad
this video was very cozy
This additional part 2 is good but not as good as part 1's take on the whole Sonic 3 story.
1. Sonic Advance on GBA used some of Masato Nakamura's tunes and there were no legal issues going on then in 2001 which predates Sonic Generations by 11 years. Something you forgot to mention in the video.
2. The (November 3rd Sonic 3 Prototype) predates the final version of Sonic 3 by 3 months and the prototype has no Michael Jackson music or music by any of his 6 collaborators so it's fair to say that MJ and his team were only involved in the last 3 months of working on the game.
3. SEGA can easily re-release Sonic 3 and Sonic 3 & Knuckles again if they really want to, it's not that hard to get an expert Mega Drive-Genesis editor on board to change the entire soundtrack if music licensing is the real problem surrounding Sonic 3. What would be even easier is for SEGA to just create an entirely new port of the game, something like A.I.R. and include a new score. Time constraints is not that much of an issue as it was back in the Mega Drive days, now days we can wait years for a single project to be finished and also there is always (Sonic 3 Complete) and to make that official Sega would have to track down all the people involved and pay them something for it but it is still possible.
I hope Sega have learned a valuable lesson with the likes of Sonic 3 when composing and producing an original score to one of their own games. Never outsource the music to free-lancers who work outside SEGA like Masato Nakamura or even Yuzo Koshiro as one day music licensing issues may create a problem and we as the fans are caught in the middle. If they do get outsiders to make the music to their games, they sould make sure that they sign legal agreements in Sega's favour. Far easier though to just stick to in-house composers who work for SEGA, that way SEGA own all the music period.
You're good at this. Please, keep it up.
I plan on it, but I got a little bit burnt out by putting this video together... and then 2020 has been what it is. Been hard to find creative motivation. But I've got something cooking. I dunno how many people are gonna like it, but it's a script I wrote years ago and something I wanted to do for a while.
If you cant run sonic 3 air then try sonic 3 complete, it runs on emulator and works fine
It's so unbelievable to hear that Sonic 3 was rushed, it always seemed like they went above and beyond with it, put as much care and attention to details as possible. Sonic 2 was the one that felt rushed even though it spent over double as long in development as Sonic 3, definitely my least favorite among the Genesis series. Probably because it wasn't developed by the original Japanese Sonic Team staff and instead outsourced to Sega's American division. Japanese devs sure know how to crunch for tight deadlines and still deliver top notch quality.
Again!? Love your channel
look at the sonic & knuckles collection credits
At least the copyright aren't like how Tetris didn't give Pajintov any money until several years after
if Taxman and Stealth made a Sonic 3 mobile port
there is a definite chance that it'll feature remastered versions of the prototype music
and people would probably mod the orignal soundtrack in anyways lol
They already released video of a mobile port before sega said they weren't interested
3:52 Nah, we saw it! 3D blast, they just don't want to admit it. :P
The proto version theme of sky sanctuary sounds so eerie.
*After 50 years*
Me as and adult in 2059: YES FINALLY, THE SONIC 3 RETRO ENGINE WILL BE MADE- Wait. Oh. They're old. Lets just wait for the other family to take place and make them.
Think you ment Sonic 3 AIR
I thought of a possible way that they could release the game with the prototype music. Have the crew behind the mobile releases of Sonic 1 and 2 to make Sonic 3 and Knuckles from the ground, but then replace the soundtrack for the prototype one.
Unfortunately I don't think that's possible. Stealth isn't currently working with Taxman right now, and Taxman helped open a new studio called Evening Star that seems to be focusing other, non-Sonic projects. Evening Star might be too big to handle a simple remake of Sonic 3 & Knuckles.
Next: The best way to play SNES games
if only...
Analogue Super NT
BSNES HD
Thank god that we got the version of Sonic 3 that we did and not the isometric one. Still, I hope to see it some day.
You mentioned that they'd need someone to hack the music in and that's true for any emulated releases but what about for a Taxman and Stealth Sonic 3 remaster? Replacing music in the Retro Engine literally is just dropping some files in a folder. When I saw the Prototype, I was really hoping now there might finally be a way to get that remaster to see the light of day.
Taxman has helped start a new game development studio called Evening Star, and they seem to be working on other, non-Sonic projects. After the outrageous financial success of Sonic Mania, they might be too "big" to do a simple port/remake of Sonic 3 anymore.
Woah, WinAmp. How retro!
All of this would explain what I saw a few years ago when I worked at Walmart. I saw one of the crappy AtGames Genesis consoles and noticed that they had Sonic 1, Sonic 2, Sonic & Knuckles but no Sonic 3. I thought that was strange.
Director: Lead Sound Designer, we have a problem, the current music driver keeps failing and the songs are not playing at all, what are we gonna do?
Lead Sound Designer: Ahhhh don't worry, I'll roll back a few snapshots to a working one, both sound driver and good music
*game gets released*
Director: Ahhhh, what a good game Lead Sound Designer, thanks so much for the work!
Lead Sound Designer: No problem, I enjoyed directing the music
Director: What music did you go with anyways?
Lead Sound Designer: The Michael Jackson snapshot we had
Director: YOU WHAT?
this isn't probably how it happened but I still like to believe they ACCIDENTALLY released the MJ version of the music
I think I've figured it out. Sega probably didn't own the rights to use Masa's music either, until 2011 when they made Sonic Generations and ended the legal conflict. However, while Sonic 1 & 2's music came from Masa, the legal rights to Sonic 3's music were far too complicated and expensive to settle, and Sega decided to shelve Sonic 3 & Knuckles forever, out of fear that the Jackson estate would likely not be as forgiving as Masa was. I doubt they lost the rights entirely to release the game, or else the Wii, Xbox 360, and Steam versions would have been pulled. Sega is probably just afraid of the damage that could be done to them and doesn't feel like it is their responsibility to make up for their past mistakes.
SEGA should just ask Tee Lopes to compose the entire soundtrack for Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Problem solved.
IMO it's on original hardware, or an emulator (mega collection is good because it has the option screen and 2 player)
I want to just provide my interpretation here:
*ON THE PROTOTYPES
*
First of all, I would like to just point out that the November 3rd, 1993 (1103) prototype isn’t the very first prototype discovered as these were out far before it:
Nov 20th,1993 (1120), EPROM, 3C 0408, and 3C 0517 prototypes were all released before 1103 was uncovered in 2019.
About your point of us not knowing the creators of the prototype soundtrack- truth is we actually kind of do, 1103 and 1120 were built about a week apart and 1120 has Michael’s tracks.
Looking at the build dates effectively confirms that Jackson got involved after 1103, and since 1103’s tracks were reused in 1997’s Sonic & Knuckles Collection which swapped out Michael’s which came after 1103
Michael's
No legal issues have popped up regarding Sonic & Knuckles Collection even to this day, so we can safely conclude Sega’s In- House sound team composed 1103’s music tracks.
Also 1103 and 1120 were built a year prior to Sonic 3’s release 1103 being built November 3rd, 1993 and the final release on May 27th,1994.
*ABOUT SPINBALLS MUSIC CHANGE
*
Thing about this is that the instruments are different from Sonic 1’s taking on more of a Punk-Rock/Heavy Metal feel than the pop version used in Sonic 1, this is mainly due to the instruments used.
This gives the song a different sound and thus feel, thus meaning it’s a different performance of the song than how it was performed in Sonic 1.
Though technically, this kind of breaks down the argument being made here that “Sega can’t use Jackson’s Music because of legal issues”
They could defend themselves in the case of the following themes as they were the only performances around at the time:
-Ending (Stranger in Moscow, Produced: 1991, Sonic 3’s Rendition: 1994, Official Release: 1997)
-Icecap Zone (Hard Times, Produced: 1980s (Don’t have an exact year will update when found), Sonic 3’s Rendition: 1994, Official Release: 2008.)
The reason for this is because until there official releases Sonic 3 was the only performance of the songs as they otherwise were unreleased.
Though I will say I do find it interesting you bring up Spinball as it uses GEMS (Genesis Editor for Music and Sound Effects) as I believe it’s possible the prototype songs used it or an earlier version of it.
Also If I recall correctly Sonic Spinball was released while Sonic & Knuckles was still in development and since Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles were meant to be one game it’s not too out of the realm of possibility that Sonic 3 used an earlier version of GEMS.
*Sega did admit it, three times.
*
I have to say I think one of two options are available here as I think Jackson’s record label either:
1. Allowed him to do work for Sonic 3. or 2. Didn’t care if he did (After all they could’ve taken a cut of Micheal's pay for Sonic 3)
Plus to my knowledge they never pegged Sega even after Sega publicly announced Jackson would work on the game in 1993 before rescinding the statement.
Same with back in the 2000s when fans began to speculate I remember they confirmed it again but rescinded the statement.
Finally they fully admitted it in Sonic’s Ultimate Genesis Collection in the “Did you know?” segment for Sonic 3 which states:
“-Michael Jackson was originally intended to work on Sonic 3’s Soundtrack”
So basically they did admit to it three times.
*ABOUT THE PROTO TRACKS/PREFRENCES*
I can’t truthfully speak for everyone about which tracks are preferred but I can definitely say that one thing is clear- People want Sonic 3.
So like it or not, if we really want this game we will have to give up Michael's music, which I know some people will dislike hearing but it’s the truth, and truth be told- it’s technically not even a loss since Modding exists.
This meaning the tracks will likely be restored within a week of a re-release coming out.
However I will fully admit this- I’ve seen people say if the tracks were swapped out they wouldn’t buy the re-release of the game, which I just have to remind these people again-modding community.
Plus, why not? I would just like to remind you that there are various re-releases of these same tracks:
-Rips on UA-cam (Both Intended, and S3 Performances)
-Digital Versions (Usually don’t cost much for them, even then you can accumulate them over time)
-Physical Releases (Again usually not much cost for them little higher than digital versions but still)
-Singles (Hard Times, Jam, You Rock My World/Just Good Friends, Stranger in Moscow, etc.)
Plus I feel like the reason people don’t like these versions of the tracks was because of the Sonic & Knuckles Collection, because I’ll admit I’m not much for the MIDI versions. I honestly implore you all listen to them and reconsider
Besides that I will retract my statement about it being easy to swap out the music tracks as it’s easy to swap them but making them actually work right is a whole other thing.
I just tried swapping out Sonic 3’s AIZ for Sonic 2’s EHZ and not only did it not play, but MGZ and HCZ’s music became corrupted this likely means there’s a dependency in Angel Island Zone music that Hydrocity and Marble Garden rely on- a sample perhaps?, still given time I’m sure fans can make the prototype music work.
*IN CONCLUSION
*
I think there’s a few ways that Sega can get Sonic 3 back even if they can’t use prototype tracks, get Tee Lopes in as a “For Hire” commission and not only would Sega get good music but they’d also own the rights as in a “For Hire” commission the creator (Tee) makes the music but the commissioner (Sega) owns the rights.
They could buy the rights of Leila “Woofle” Wilson’s Alternate OST, that she made for the game, she also composed the OST for the Sonic-Inspired indie game: Freedom Planet, and it’s sequel so I don’t think it’s too far of a stretch to say she’s a fan.
They could partner up with the people who made Mania since they were a part of the Sonic Retro community and use mutual connections from both sides and using their in-house sound team.
They can then replace Michael’s tracks with their own original compositions then convert them to be used on the Genesis and boom now they have a version of Sonic 3 that they effectively can freely use.
As for those who prefer Michael’s tracks pop that baby on PC and they’ll be back in a week thanks to modders, they could even replace the offending steam version.
Honestly I don’t personally think removing Michael’s tracks is a big loss, they’re good tracks but I can live without ‘em it doesn’t really affect my experience though I suppose I gotta consider the bigger picture as well we’re talking about porting the game for everyone.
So upon thinking harder than I should about this, this is the idea I came up with:
Sega replaces Michael’s soundtrack with the 1103 Soundtrack, since based on the fact that the tracks were swapped out in the Sonic & Knuckles Collection, with no legal threats being made since release in 1997.
That and it was built the week before Michael’s Visit and since 1120 is the first instance of Michael’s tracks in the game.
Then contact the label and team Micheal made and tell them they can sell a patch that restores Micheal’s tracks to Sonic 3 which they and only they can charge for finally freeing sonic 3 from it’s legal trouble while letting Sega re-release the new version.
Wow. This is a LOT, and I mean a LOT of nitpicky hair-splitting. Like after a certain point I just gave up because you are EXTREMELY PEDANTIC about itty bitty teensy tiny little details. I understand that sometimes that stuff matters, but some of what you call me out on here is a little beyond the pale for me.
@@BlazeHedgehog I apologize for calling you out that wasn't of my intention and I must have been angry when I wrote this, I should've taken the time to refute the points made here calmly.
I will be editing this to do so, I'll be honest: I just find the legal troubles behind Sonic 3 Frustrating the game should be given the right to be re-released.
Again I apologize for the offending you, my main goal was to provide evidence that refuted the points made here but also to state the fact that Sega made the proto tracks thus could use them given the need-be.
Edit: Will have to edit the comment tomorrow since it's night where I am and I'm hearing birds, not a good sign.
I want the original emerald hill zone music not from the Sega Genesis but from the Japanese person who made the song
If you’re still looking for it, it’s the ‘Masa’s Demo’ version of Emerald Hill.
@@JaSe21_ nah man i found it
I don't think Sega owns the music or even bought the rights from Nakamura. In Generations' case, they probably just asked him for permission to do remixes. Also, I should point out that the exact same thing already happened before with Sonic Adventure 2 (where you unlock Green Hill by collecting all emblems) and Sonic Advance (Fun fact: there's an Android port of Advance that's available for free but only came out in Japan, this port replaced the music from Sonic 1 & 2 with the music from Sonic 4).