You're not allowed to form parasocial relationships Ayunda Risu. She's my wife, so back off. Bitch. Edit: Some potential yabs in the video. Edit 1: Noel's clip at 11:17 may be misrepresenting her. Her actual reason is that she's wary and shy of men, though it doesn't detract from the point I was trying to make, since other Holos had confessed that the reason they wouldn't collab with males was due to their fans and bc they were idols. Thank you. Now go back to risu worshipping Edit 2: The whole Vox going-to-therapy thing is more complicated than I depicted it. I simplified it for the sake of the point, but do note it's not just about the Reimu drama as to why he's doing it.
@@DepressedNousagi bruh shaddap you have risu already don't go for suisei this time piste yawa imma fold you and put you in ma pocket We'll before you get mad that was a joke and sarcasm
Hololive ID branch is the best example of how to deal with parasocial fans. They are inside the Hololive bubble but most of ID members have collabed with male without having any controversy and didn't have to pass certain big drama to purge unhealthy part of their fanbase (Towa case). If you understand Indonesian, you can see any comments complaining about male collab or interaction got downvoted and ratioed to oblivion. They have more direct approach to their fans and already draw the line between fanbase and vtuber since their debut.
And also remember that even if you donate to a streamer/vtuber, doesn't matter if its a low or medium quantity, they're not your friends, lovers or even your clowns. Their job is to entertain an audience of people, but it's up to the audience to decide if they give them money or not. If you do, that's great, if you don't, that's great too! Just do not expect to develop a special relationship with a streamer/vtuber because you give them money.
Add to that, do not donate more than what it would be the equivalent of giving a tip for your capacity. it is much better to smartly save and have a good life in the long run.
@@NamasteSpoon The real issue is that some Vtubers have noted that they do believe that fans can become friends with the Vtubers they most support. Some were referring fans becoming friends with them and others were indies seemingly wanting their oshis to consider them friends on their personal account. It is a murky area.
The thing about "parasocialism" is that most of the time it's used as a buzzterm like the term Stan; every person who ever listens or watches shows develops a parasocial interest in the material, it's more so when people develop a addiction to media, as opposed to it initself being all bad.
I kinda worded it slightly weird; if anyone is confused, no the term 'stan' is what a lot of people conflate to as 'parasocal', but it is two separate ideas
Parasocial relationships: * exists * Nenechi: Everyone is husband! News broadcast: Local vtuber puts an end to parasocial relationships, by offering herself as everyone's wife. More at 11.
This is a double-edged sword. On one hand it gives her a getaway in case something happens, but on the other it puts a ton of pressure on her as content creator and can backfire anyway with large enough community, because some people are just unreasonable in their obsession. There's still no obvious way to solve this, but getting self-aware is probably the best first step.
@@kindlingking Been a Nekko for almost a year now, Nene insofar has never actually done any sort of Rushia-esque GFE pandering. Her fan-service is more like a dumb sister/daughter act than anything really.
Everyone's mentioning Nene, but I think Polka's system is even more genius. Though she probably doesn't remember about it. "Sure, you're all married to me. But also to each other". She put us into a mutual parasocial relationship with other fans.
8:01 "Vtuber's are easier to objectify." I specifically like this point since this is the first time I actually thought of this, it makes so much sense that it's scary. Spending huge amounts of money expecting that they're somehow a part of the Vtuber's life sounds like pulling a character from a Gacha game...
These guys haven't thought things through. Pulling these girls in a gacha game might be fun, but catching their attention irl is downright dangerous. I mean just Suisei alone...
I have been in this hole for 2 years now and am always surprised by how many people fell off to the deep end. I buy into the magic like everyone else, I enjoy whenever my Oshi streams and am happy to hang out with them. However, I still recognize that they are still just doing their job and entertaining the audience no matter how much I watch them I would never really know them or become friends with them. Like Calli said a lot of streamers put themselves out there for the audience but what the viewer sees is only about 20% of the actual Vtuber themself. Maybe it's because my Oshi talks a lot about the working grind is why I have a more clear perception of it being a job. But I digress Great video like always Nousagi keep up the good work
Yea. For me there has always been a pretty clear line. I am pretty active in a certain vTuber's Discord and she regularly pops into the Sub-Only section to chat or ask questions so I can totally see why that line can get blurred. Hell, our humor lines up disturbingly well so I could even see her being someone I could really get along with as a friend. That said I have never, and hopefully will never, forget about that line. She is an entertainer and I am a fan. Short of a huge dynamic shift that will never change, and that is okay. Nothing wrong with supporting an entertainer so long as it doesn't cut into my ability to get by. I don't really see my subscription or nay donos as a way to "buy attention or friendship". To me it is like buying tickets to go see my favorite band or comedian.
I hate it when someone begins to believe they've earned some privilege just because they spent a lot of money on an online personality. I've spent literally thousands of dollars on Hololive alone these past 3+ years, and I can't see that being any real leverage. It's like calling up Coca Cola and making demands because you've bought so much of their product.
Same. In fact I wanna see Subaru collab with Maimoto again. When I was still a noob Holofan I actually shipped them... Until I realized that she literally calls him "uncle" 💀 I look at them like they're characters in a slice of life anime, that way I can obsess about them all I want. But whatever they're doing "outside the show" is something I don't wanna bother with tho, which is I don't wanna see their alt channels and face reveals. (UA-cam doxxes them to me anyway, but I try to avert my eyes xD)
What's scary about parasocialism is that some people might not realise that they are being parasocial, I was completely oblivious to how deep am I falling until the Rushia termination, where I noticed how miserable I became over someone else's problems, now I feel better by just the fact that I'm aware of my parasocialism.
Its now becoming harder to tell if its parasocialism or empathy Since she really did get so hurt inside from the termination Although most of the talents tried to hide it on stream i can only assume they grieved a lot behind the scenes And some really just couldnt take it anymore like calli saying she felt sick in the stomach and cancelled her stream when news broke out Kiara didnt have time to let the news sink in and just broke down during a physical therapy session Former is a twitter post, latter i found via a clip
I for one am one of those who did felt like shit when news broke out(for real for a lot of us, who didnt?) I did not start with her initially, it was marine and fubuki Then eventually i discovered the rest and they are all wonderful(im a subatomo btw) And i felt what kiara said about loving gen 3 as a whole? Same.exact.feelings.
It's okay to feel bad when something like that happens. I'd say it becomes a problem when the person does something crazy like harassing people over it or wanting to get involved in the situation. But don't feel bad for being concerned.
@@CRAgamer for me Personally, I felt bad because I realised that my life have just become hololive, I used to watch holo members all day everyday, now not only do I have other things I do daily, but I am emotionally and mentally prepared for any member's graduation from hololive, which is a super weird feeling, to feel both regretful AND grateful for what happened to Rushia.
I’m 2 months clean of watching vtubers. I had to cut them out cold turkey because I would fall back into a destructive life again: Not exercising, not focusing on hygiene, spending copious amounts of money donating, and not going outside. After I quit watching, I’m doing a lot better in life. Im not angry at the talents, or the agencies. I just had to really look at myself and current situation. It was really difficult to quit watching, but I had to if I wanted to live. For some people, like me, vtubers are dangerous. Really know yourself and decide what is best for you.
I'm on 1 month and I'll keep going. Still watching their funny clips sometimes for laugh, when there's no sunshine and weather is cold, and maybe i'll keep this username until YT take down my account. Because once a nousagi, always nousagi.
Sounds more like a case of addiction than parasocialism, a destructive lifestyle which could come from a variety of things like gaming. Core important aspect is to remember to keep your life balanced of entertainment as well as like, your actual life. Keep healthy
I had to take an 18 or something months hiatus. Ngl I'm still parasocial af and I can't help myself from falling in love with my oshi, but that time helped me purge some toxic behaviour and I learned that as much as I like her or any other persona, character, etc, the person that I love the most in this world is myself.
I feel like parasocialism has a lot to do with how audiences are treated, as either a collective or individualistic The culture of parasocialism developed in the west and VTubers is certainly quite interesting to see. I've watched lots of twitch streamers where the chat responds instantly, with wide arrays of emotes on the ready, interacting with each other and building off of each other's jokes. Clips without chat get people complaining, like "no chat dansgame" then you have literal homeless tier streamers like Forsen who will watch entire video and not react an inch, but chat stays because they are there for each other. In the west, you're buying into a community rather than the person. I think some streamers have also emulated this very well and focused greatly on their community and inside jokes. Marine is a great example, because she's incredibly explicit but treats everyone as a collective rather than seperate individuals. It keeps the focus on the whole rather than themselves. But people like Rushia are a different story. When you're privately messaging the top of the top, there's no community to buy into, but instead one to buy out of - to stand out by spending more. It's why it works so well for generating cash, but it's a ticking time bomb. Going this route you're 100% not satisfying everyone, and the competition from your own chat will definitely drain you Though rushia is just... on a whole other lever compared to Vox and co used here. Unlike her, their parasocial acts fail because they can't keep up, and it drains them, or makes them call it out eventually (like mysta asking why people trauma dump, causing people to get mad.) Mikeneko keeps up TOO much, the slightest threat to her parasocial domain scares her and she's just... well, yeah, you've seen how she's been recently lol
I am curious about what you mean when you say the western culture of parasocialism. From what little I know, the same types of behaviors can be observed in K-pop or idol fandoms, and I would think the problem is more so exacerbated by our increasing reliance on technology rather than geographic location. For sure though, treating fans as a collective helps significantly more. Donations/superchats make it really difficult as a streamer because you want to say thanks without modeling that money is a means for getting the streamer’s attention. I think referring to chat as “chat” tacitly reinforces this boundary. As you mentioned, other streamers collectivize their audience into one entity. Streamers that want to recognize and interact with viewers on-stream that are not colleagues or contributors really risk bringing out these parasocial behaviors from their audience.
Some recent drama. Some gossip UA-camr told her someone was badmouthing her, and she did a kneejerk reaction. Honestly, Mikeneko’s the kind of online personality who needs management the most to keep her from acting on her Impulses, but her judgement ability just makes me think she won’t be able to choose a proper confidant on her own.
I'm pretty sure rushia and vox are pretty much the same scums... not by person i mean the bf and gf thing... The parasocial happens on anyone, my friend have people with parasocial relationship with him despite not being an internet personality, but again, it's just the unintentional things that just sort of happen. you can't really guess when it's coming, by the time you realized it... you're best move is literally trying to soften the blow or pull the plug... to which most vtubers chose neither, It's really beneficial but again, you're just begging to get shoot at by the time people start turning on you...
I think my parasocialism has changed a little, post Sana Graduation. I never wanted to have a romantic relationship with any of them but I did put them on a pedestal as someone I relied on for emotional support. Learning more about Sana's back issues, Ina's fatigue and Gura's mental health made them more human to me. I still wouldn't called it entirely healthy. I went from wanting to be there to support Ina in her hardships, to wanting someone else who can better be there for Ina to support her. Basically my parasocialism is I'm hoping Ina has a partner/spouse in her life to prevent her from constantly working herself to illness.
I’ve read more and more comments of people realizing that they may have fallen into the parasocial category. I think we all have this natural urge to show empathy and concern when something bad happens to people we care, but because we are essentially just strangers, we don’t really know what to do. So some fans start following their updates, following their streams religiously to shower them with supportive messages, start getting mad at other fans for casually disagreeing and thinking people do not understand the vtuber as much as they do, start being overly protective of their oshis, develop a special feeling that “I know more about this person than other people do, I really care about them”. Then, when the vtuber is brutally honest about their discomfort over these super parasocial fans, they feel attacked. Realizing that we may all fall into this easily is what stops us from becoming just as bad as the gachikois.
yeah, i think wishing the best for your oshi is much more on a healthier side, be it their mental health, romantic life or something else. I feel very much the same towards nijisanji boys. Them keeping me company when everything is kinda shit makes me wish they have something or someone that could cheer them up irl
Whenever I think about my oshi graduating I always remind myself "they're human behind all that tech, if the character dies(graduates) the person is still alive, are you really valuing the character more than the person that's bringing that character to life for you?" which do you value more, the real person that brought you happiness or the character on screen.
Nooo you can't just deny us when we donated our whole fortune to you. You're ours 😭😭😂 Kinda respect some Vtubers that drew lines for their fans. I remembered when Mysta said something about don't treat him not as friend but streamer, he's not a friend but entertainer. Guess everything in moderation is always good... But when it goes too deep
@@akira8393 like he said in the video, most people only see in black and white. When they hear "parasocial" they automatically think "oh it bad and maidenless behaviour touch grass".
To clarify at 7:14, the Reimu drama isn't related to his mental health. If anything, it has more to do with HER mental health after the attacks. His extended break and professional help happened because he is a workaholic who became one due to various factors (which at this moment, he said the diagnosis from his first appointment are still to be revealed) that led him into unhealthy habits, which in turn feed into his own mental health issues, leading to burnout and stress. He did seek help AFTER the Reimu incident, and it could have something to do with that, but as far as I know, there is no causation. Still in this topic, a lot of streamers (not just in Nijisanji) are overworked workaholics with building up stress and no guidance, and Vox's entire "health arc" is also aligning with his desire to incentivize both viewers and coworkers to also seek help for anything that goes with them behind the scenes. I could be wrong, though!
Uhh, Vox HIMSELF had emotional dependence on his audience, hence his half-cocked response which put Reimu in a corner. Yeah, he tried his best to fix that later on by calling out his fanatics, but he was part of the problem.
his mental health did effect this situation tho as he stated his anxiety and not wanting to hurt anyone and feeling like he was pushed into a corner and not knowing what is the best thing to say that wouldnt potentially hurt hus fans, made him believe that staying quiet was the best way to approach it as he was one of those people that think if you stay quiet people will stop being assholes since they see no reaction....and he was majorly wrong on top of that him being a workaholic at the time, he never allowed himself to have any breaks and kept on overworking himself mentally, its only after what happened it reimu he finally came clean and addressed everything and admitted he needs and gonna get help and a break
I am a small vtuber and I have already experienced some of my fans showing parasocialism with me. It started as heathly where some of them would wake up a bit early or stay up an hour late just to watch my streams. However, It has gotten so bad that I've had to block/ban as I could tell that one just wanted to date me him by wanting to play games or talk to him whenever I was not streaming. I know that every content creator will experience some unhealthy parasocial, but I was not expecting my first experience when I got 500 followers.
My thoughts, opinions, and speculations as a Kindred (Vox): Whether the correct term actually is "menhera" in this case, I think Vox hints that he's been like that even before joining Nijisanji, which is unfortunate because we don't know what caused him to dive deep in depression. Then after joining Nijisanji, he broke out of that depression through his fans (even admitting several times that he's happy to be alive /now/), and that's why he was so attached to his fans as much some of his fans then were (and unfortunately some now who haven't learned their lesson, but we try to ratio them as much as possible). After the BF ASMR incident, he was snapped in reality by fans that we're not his everything, as just he's not anyone's therapist, and that we're also not his therapy. Vox's now taking steps to finally treat his mental problems with therapy and updating and enforcing his rules properly, which in itself it applaudable. And his tweet at 8:50... yeah, more "seasoned" Kindred just dismissed that as drunk Vox (and honestly, sometimes we're sick of it, but you can see some Kindred whose first language isn't English in the comment trying to comment on this, but unable to see the joke/pick up on sarcasm, which itself is another problem) because he does Saturday streams where the premise is to get drunk while talking to vtubers in and outside Niji about whatever, and even he's recognizing that drinking every week like that isn't healthy, so he's taking a break from it.
Thank you for making this video. Every time I see some Twitter/4chan drama surrounding a bunch of so-called “fans” harassing VTubers for basically just having lives outside of them or just having friends of the opposite gender, it makes me sick. These streamers are all incredibly talented and funny people, and yet people need to acknowledge that they’re just that - _people_ - and not some trophy wife/husband to project on and be entitled to. They deserve better than that level of toxic attachment, and I’m glad that you’ve addressed it so concisely and honestly. Edit: Someone in the replies pointed this out, but in the case of a Rushia scenario where the liver actively tries to be more exclusive towards their community, fans acting entitled to her are still completely unjustified. However, I do agree that Rushia should have known better than to indulge her fanbase's more parasocial tendencies, and while I understand her paranoia and desire for attention, her actions still actively made the situation far worse. The audience has a responsibility to treat the performer with respect, but that responsibility also extends to the performers themselves.
@@aburabure I think you need to buy a new dictionary. And the answer is no, by the way, it is _never_ okay to harass anyone just because you don't find them funny. Thank you for your time.
after watching vox i started to shit better, i think most of my indigestion problems are gone. I take parasocial dumps with my favorite vtubers when they shit i suddenly feel like shitting, it has helped me tremendously
I recently saw a clip a few weeks ago where Fulgur, post-debut, immediately set his boundaries and let his audience know that he isn't their friend. He immediately gained more respect from me. That's what I want to see more of from people; not being afraid to let their viewers know that they are an entertainer first and foremost and that they are not their therapist or boyfriend/girlfriend. That's why I LOVED Vox's stream where finally put his foot down!
@@BeyondDaX welll tbf vox already stated hard that he will not change his content that his usual audiences enjoyed just because some braindead minority being loud and even clarified to read the title being RP and not dating stuff. In the end it depends on the fans brain too
The scary part is, anyone can fall into the deep end. I'm lucky I have people around me to keep me grounded, but without them, I might've never gotten out of it. I used to watch vtubers for almost 12 hours a day. It was rough. Glad I'm starting to limit myself and using that time to doother things. Keep it in moderation and remember that real relationships are always better than a parasocial relationship.
Unfortunately in this society, especially in asia. They need these parasocial relationships even in a time where things are becoming worse and worse. Not everyone is fortunate.
I've remained grounded hard as my reason to give vtubers a looksie is because they are ostensibly a new, novel sort of animu character or method of presenting animu characters.
"Chat giving you money so you feel like you have to give something in return. So you ended up giving them your vulnerabilities." This sounds like those quotes you have to hang on a wall orp ut on shirt as a warning or belongs in r/TwoSentenceHorror.
There is something to be said about the HUGE market that has been made out of monetizing men's lonliness. I've seen streamers and Vtubers alike target men emotionally with "I love you, I'm your e girlfriend/virtual girlfriend, sexual talk and innuendos towards the viewers and donaters, etc " it's all a proven marketing tactic to get the viewers (primarily lonely males) to give money as when someone is emotionally attached to the person/character, they are more likely to spend money. It's just that these men are expecting/believing the words from these entertainers as "truth or real feelings" and find themselves wanting to do more to get their attention which is by giving more money. In the end they will never have that true companionship/relationship they think they will get in the end. It's a cut throat industry,
I recently listened to Template by Suisei, it gives me things about the parasocialism and the effects of it to the point where their life are on the edge. I recommend the song in case you have time to spare 👍
I think Mumei solves this problem in the most efficient way possible by breaking away from her character (just a bit) from time to time. In one livestream titled "Mumei Draws HOLOLIVE #2" she even straight up reminded chat by saying "just remember, nothing is real" before ending the stream.
tbh mumei's contents and her personality didn't really attract the parasocial type of viewers in the first place. she was very nervous and awkward when she first debuted, and chat was filled with "must protecc", they treated her like a younger sister/daughter. after a few months she became relaxed enough (but still awkward and we love her for that) she and her chat became the classic "me and the bois" since she's so relatable.
I see mumei as a hard working example of modesty. As shes the only Vtuber I watch me and the other hoomans always want her to take breaks. She has so much on her plate and never tries to "seduce" or "win over" her chat or fans. She streams, she yells at chat when we deserve it, etc. She thanks us for when we help her in games or when hoomans make art or games, for or of her. 10/10 would reccommend idowl
Good video bruv ✌️ You’re one of the only UA-camrs I trust to reliably cover sensitive topics like this one Honestly I think I might be parasocially in love with you
I have experienced parasocialism only once. It wasn't for a vtuber, and I was already friends with the person. It didn't last too long, and I feel like I have learned from it. This was like 10 years ago and hasn't happened again. For vtubers though, I just can't imagine how I would ever see them as anything more than an entertainer, unless I was also an entertainer and tried to befriend them.
Me too. I followed a UA-cam streamer from a very niche channel at the time. I watched everything she was on, even sent a gift to her P.O. Box once. I realized I wasn’t just loving her content, but her as a person too. And then, she started doing solo streams at twitch. And became BIG. Not millions of views, but some hundred every stream. And I started to notice I wasn’t a “fan” anymore, I was just a number at this point. Before, I was one of the 10 or 20 watchers, I felt close. Now, I’m one of 800. But then, it hit me: oh, I’m just being a creep at this point. Thinking I have (or had) any chance to become close to this streamer is borderline psychotic. She didn’t know I existed before, she does even less now. I didn’t know the concept of parasocialism before, but I was experiencing the definition of it. I had to cut ties entirely to move on. Blocked her in every social media, to “detox” myself. I also learned a lot about myself from this episode.
honestly, as much as I too like to harp on "the parasocials" when they get to be too much, the parasocial aspect between entertainer and audience is always there. it's just a degree of when it's healthy and when it becomes consuming. as a kpop fan for years, i've taken many breaks from actively following the idols i like/liked and it still took me a long time to get out of the "being ___'s fan is my personality" mentality. i guess getting older and thinking "this is just a hobby" helped a lot. setting boundaries and all that jazz.
I loved this video as it's a topic that needs to be discussed in any community . . . But ngl I got a bit distracted at the end when you started playing instrumental of "I really want to stay at your house" XD.
Leave it to Nousagi to not be afraid to discuss the more touchy subjects of the vtubing world as well as deliver me my health dose of copium. (He just like me, fr.) Nousagi better be careful, if he keeps spilling truth like he is I may start catching feelings. (He just like me, fr.)
I have done my study on parasocial relationship as a psychology student it can be really bad in some cases and terrible hard as sh*t to fix sometimes As you said it can be good if kept in check but it can spiral out of control if not careful In truth I am also in a parasocial relationship with some small streams and I have to keep it all in check. I love watching them, hanging out with them and lol playing with them but gota maintain and balance my self
Vox showing up so many times got me dying inside 💀 But that aside, you make really great points and arguments always. I never even thought of the idea that the industry thrives off of parasocial relationships until you pointed it out. I have always felt alone in the opinion that parasocialism can be healthy to an extent. Glad to see that that is not a case! I myself can count under the healthy side of parasocialism. Various content creators over the years have helped me shaped who I am and improved myself. They helped me discover hobbies and passion I would have never tried if it weren’t for me seeing them try it. But of course, it’s a responsibility of mine as a viewer to keep myself grounded in reality. I’m glad that you point out that parasocialism is a two way street because often times I see one party being blamed over the other. It’s definitely more nuanced than it usually is perceived as. Something that I wish that the industry finds an answer to is how much responsibility is on the Vtuber and how much is the viewer’s? I understand some Vtubers make more risqué and fanservice-y type of content because that’s what they like to make. I’d like to think most cases this isn’t done purposefully to lure gachikois in, but rather it’s what they enjoy doing. But the question is, should they be put at fault? How much fanservice is too much fanservice? Should they regularly put their viewers back in their place to make sure no one steps out of line? Vtubers or even real life celebrities/people can only do so much to control fans, and at some points, the responsibility falls onto the fan’s shoulder. One thing is that clicking the ‘yes’ button on twitch saying that a stream contains adult content even when the viewer is not even an adult. The fan’s over indulging in their fantasies and being delusional enough into thinking they’re true. It’s hard to regulate such a big audience especially since the Vtubers aren’t aware of their existence. It’s not easy to get rid of them as they can just silently watch or make a new account. I hope that all content creators find the balance that creates a safe space for escape and relief to an audience while fans keep their distance. As you said, there are already existing Vtubers who found that, and that’s good. It shows that there is still an existing line that keeps both parties in their own bounds. Anyway, those are my two cents. I have always found myself thinking about this topic for a long time. And while it’s a prevalent issue, I don’t really think it’s being talked about enough in a civilized manner, where one side is not putting more blame on the other. So I’m very happy I found this video! Much success to you Nousagi!
Mind you, there was that recent CN Vtuber who got outed by his kinda-sorta ex-girlfriend as being an abuser who just treated her as a means to clout and who even called his own fans his wallets or something. Think he collabed once with Vox? Someone from Niji, anyway. Then there was that recent case with the guy who tried to present AI art as his own. Some people are into vtubing for clout and money, and they have no qualms with taking advantage of parasocialism for their own benefit. Anyone who dips a toe into the business of providing a boyfriend/girlfriend experience to their viewers should do so with the awareness that the internet is a big place that lets them connect to pretty much anyone in the world, and that includes people who are especially susceptible to this kind of thing. Cater to the people who want this kind of content, sure, but it’s important that anyone who does this and has a consciousness knows how to draw a line in the sand, not only to protect themselves from some of their viewers, but to protect those viewers as well from their impulses. Pretty much just do their due diligence in the situation to whatever extent most anyone would find reasonable.
I mean maybe from the Vtubers you watch might not be... but just go find Indies and most of them doing it on purpose for the gachis... Do i think it's a blame on Vtubers, yes. Not that they can control the parasocial relationship but at the same I don't ever seen any vtuber tries to be careful with these things, They usually voiced it out when it's get too far and by that point you pretty much find it harder to fix it... To say content creator will find a solution is something I don't think is gonna happen... parasocial makes big for them, there's not to say that no one ever does it but usually the ones that do are usually those who are barely noticeable, For what twitch is, it's really been good at finding those who don't even have views at all, and They are really talented compared to most vtubers that you watched... but since they aren't skillful in terms of talking to audiences, they only kept around 10 or 12 or even none at all... In the end, those that made it big have used the parasocial crap... it's only the question of... can you handle it, and to for Vtubers, the answer is a solid "no. i just don't give a fuck"
"I never even thought of the idea that the industry thrives off of parasocial relationships" how? its like, the bread and butter of almost everything why do you think Rushia was a top earner and also doing GFE most of the time?
@@GrEEnF1Re1 I’ve been recently new to the scene of Vtubers, especially corporate-owned ones. Just got into them around April this year. Even then, my circle is still very limited and I don’t really step out or regularly watch other than those I am already familiar with. The issue with Rushia was and still is quite a news for me. I have been updated through Nousagi’s video though, but I never really was there when Rushia was streaming. When I tried watching indie Vtubers, they were what I expected from regular streamers: just streaming and chatting, not much fanservice from what I observed. Aside from that, that information never really sunk in my brain, I guess. I always keep my foot on the ground and just give myself a constant reality check, so maybe that’s why I never really noticed it?
Now, this video should be recommend to anyone who want to join a famous vtuber agency... Cuz, you will get a shit ton of attention from all sorts of people. The wannabe unicorns, wannabe bicorns, wannabe husbands, wannabe bf/gf, wannabe friends/families, antis, etc. You should really prepare your mentality and don't forget to turn off sns notifications when streaming.
I feel like when it comes to superchats there should be a feature for streamers to reject the money from them. It's gotta feel fucking gross taking money from the people who trauma dump on them.
Meh, just think the bad money belong to UA-cam 30% share. You dont need think so hard and the sc do nothing to you life. Nutshell thanks to greedy of Susan.😂
I'm not sure if I remember it correctly, an aka supa was sent to a vtuber before just to share his disappointment and the vtuber said she'll talk to mane chan to help her refund the money because they don't need to send aka supa just to show their disappointment
Great video! Surprisingly well written and informative insight into this culture that drives the vtuber community. As someone who got into vtubers in late 2019 im glad someone took the time to explain and address this issue that has frighteningly become pretty much the norm.
Vtubers or streamers themselves must draw a line on their debut and occasional warnings from time to time to avoid the unhealthy parasocialism from their own fans. Rushia's case should be used as a learning material.
Fulgur did that: he specifically said and wrote in his video descriptions since day 1 that he didn't want any form of parasocialism, he always refused to read comments or even supas that felt parasocial and never said or did stuff that was requested to him through supas. And now his fanbase is arguably one of the healthiest I know. Also luckily I've seen more vtubers trying to fix the mistakes that led to parasocialism, especially after the whole Rushia issue: they're avoiding asmr that might be risky, and/or explicitly calling out chat for trauma-dumping/babying/being parasocial.
Thank you for explaining. Therefore I won't feel too terrible about myself and I will try my best to control myself from diving/submerging too deep. *Tips hat*
im glad you made this video, many ppl naively think they can avoid these things or that for them it will be different. you pointing out its inseparably connected to the activity needs to be shown. its existed online since even the early age of Youtubing when pewdiepie was young though it is as you say more prone to happen in streaming.
"When one escapes reality" there was a time where I thought I understood the meaning of this when it comes to escaping from the harshness of the real world to recharge oneself, but it was when I learned of those who "left for good" that I see the abyss that I could've fell had I not been careful in separating fantasy from reality. It still terrifies me how I could've easily dropped down that path had it not been for the support of those close to me.
This made me remeber one conversation i had with a teacher about people´s obsession, how it can make people create and commit to their jobs with encouragement and a positive view , however when your obsession is about something you cannot control, like being obsessed with someone else, it can ruin you. everybody needs an obsession to give themselves a mission to work towards, but you need to have control over it.
Your video kinda reminds me of a vid made by a vtuber called Yam Koumori a few weeks ago, points are really similar and I can see the shared vision on the whole topic, however, I see a difference in how the video got received on her end. Since she's a vtuber people treated her like she should be grateful for gachis, and she was envious of not having those in the first place. It's the parasocialism in people talking and feeling called out by someone they don't think it's adequate to be called out by. As you mentioned, when people get parasocial it can take a massive hit to the streamer's mental health since every time they break the image someone had of them on their mind they get hate for it. We shouldn't blame vtubers who want nothing to do with that since they're witnessing the results of letting their audience do whatever they please, and that's what happened to her, she got a considerable amount of comments calling her biased for not wanting to play into the parasocial game, and I think it's something to think about as a community.
Having watching Vtubers for quite some time now, a couple of them have done some real talk about parasocialism... and it really took a turn where I didn't expect. Parasocialism is a two way street, that the streamer/VTuber will genuinely look forward to see their chat, sometimes individual names & sometimes (eg out shopping) may wonder or want to tell their audience something (as you would a friend) Now to be clear, it's almost always on the healthy side, it helps drive them to give their best as they care about their audience/fans & some are completely detached from this, purposely keeping a 6ft pole for that reason. For me personally, It was just really cool to hear the perspective of a couple from the other side of the fence. In the end of the day, having the knowledge that the VTuber cares about their audience is a gentle nice reminder that they are also human & should always be treated with respect (as you would any other person). I'm sure in the years to come that studies will be done on socialism & it will be a similar result to video games. That being a healthy schedule around games (with a balanced social life & school/work) does indeed have benefits. (I won't get into the details here, but it's certainly very interesting and only a google search away for those genuinely interested)./ First their was Radio and eventually you could call up the radio station to answer the quiz question of the day... years went on and Television (killed the radio star..&) came out with a bang. Programs were done live... so yes.. just like streams, except there were no VODs & certainly no way to communicate back. These days the news feels more like a show with it's reporters doing live broadcast amongst people in the real world.. It wasn't just anime, Hatsunie Miku & Kizune Ai blazing a trail towards VTubers (though each very important in their own right). It's been headed in this direction for a long time. I wonder if at some point there will be a chat box on the news... no doubt with bots to delete anything unsavory ofcause.. More interaction & convenience is where things are headed.
I really appreciate the way you have framed "parasocial" here, as it gets at one of my lingering frustrations with how this term is deployed in many of these controversies. Namely, people often treat the term as if it captures the most extreme, unhealthy, or dangerous examples of fan interaction, or basically as if being parasocial on any level is actually something that could conceivably be avoided in this space (e.g., "stop being parasocial"). But online sociality doesn't really exist outside of parasocial relationships, because really this term tends to just refer to mediated relationships in the first place, and those relationships can take form in as wide of a variety as "real" relationships. And relationships in general can be really good or really bad, unhealthy, or dangerous. Basically, there is no outside of parasociality here - we can't just tell people to not be parasocial, we have to address the actual behaviour - "social" or "parasocial," it isn't okay to harass people.
It always seemed really weird to me how these people would nonchalantly donate thousands in currency just to get their vtubers to acknowledge them. I was just never really ever to wrap my head around the idea of giving these perfect strangers money that you don't even really know anything at all about.
There was a moment where i was really deep into it. Wasn't comfortable with where it took me, and was also getting burnt out on all the contraversy stories. Seemed like u couldn't breath without one popping up in your feed. I still watch but not nearly as much as i used to
Yeah it’s important to know where to draw the line. People also gotta be more financially responsible if they’re broke but are like “but I gotta support my oshi/fav streamer, etc.” I’m just here to meme and have fun with streamer and chat
To be honest, sub to vtuber as members make me financial my stuff a lot. No more crazy spend, it maybe small to other people, but it big for wild spender plus learned how currency work and effective online order?
I like how you mention that parasocialism isn't a one way street, but both influencer and fan basically fall into it, and that not every parasocial relationship is a bad or negative thing. I've always said that falling into one is inevitable, you will find a streamer or creator, or even fictional character, that pushes all the right buttons, but people need to understand boundaries and understand the fact that you basically have no shot in meeting them outside of streams or events.
I think an underappreciated fact is that fandom actually *can* become real friendship, though it's only a tiny fraction of the time. For fans of streamers, channel regulars can become moderators, and moderators can become friends. Deranged stalkers aren't generally chosen as moderators, but people with an unhealthy level of parasocialism can fantasize about that path for themselves. Another path is streamers who were unknowingly fans of one another. Ironmouse was a huge fan of Nyanners, and vice versa. Once they got big and actually met, they became best friends. Or maybe a streamer notices a very small creator, likes their content, and starts promoting them. Someone with an unhealthy obsession might imagine that path for themselves; "oh, maybe if I become a streamer she'll notice me..." I sometimes wonder if the public interactions between streamers and fans make parasocialism a bigger problem, or just a more visible one, or a combination of the two... We generally don't see the obsessed fan letters from fans to traditional celebrities. I mean, there was a guy who saw Taxi Driver then shot the President of the United States. Vtuber obsession hasn't gotten that bad yet...
As joining into vtuber fandom, I actually learn about healthy parasocial relationship from other fandom. I used to didn't care, tend to looking down, of kpop fans and any hobbyist who spent money a lot for their hobby. After I following vtuber fandom, now I understand of people desire on their hobby and interest. Vtuber fans cheer on their favorite vtuber a lot seems not different with kpop fans, and of course any other fans, like certain idol, diva, musician, etc. Seeing lot of people do support their favorite vtuber by donating makes me more respect on people who spent their money and resources on their hobbies. I guess, joining vtuber fandom community teach me that parasocial relation is just like knife wich can be used for good and bad things. And it also teach me about respect to effort of desire for having any interest.
Honestly I think a lot of people need to see this and was a good subject to hit upon. It made me take a step back and look at myself and realize how close I have been to the tipping point of going too far
When you're actually in love with someone who doesn't even know you, instead of simply imagining (love) scenarios and then coming back to reality, that's when you might have a problem. Escapism is normal, the degree matters. You can abuse cheeseburgers or workouts for escapism too, nothing new.
But the problem is, if that temporary "escapism" turned into a "problem" one day. The person tends to get back at the one started it for ruining their "escapism". No one says its bad, Just people causing problems for other people with it.
It's a slippery slope indeed, but it's not something you can't manage just have to come into it with the right mindset on what you're using it for and set the boundaries correctly. I use escapism to calm my mind down cus it's the easiest thing to think about but yes, i've seen some.. let's just say, unsightly behavior, especially on that god-forsakened app, Twitter
Great video, however my dumb minecraft brain *always* wants the weighted pressure plate to be pressed, when something is sitting on top of it... i think i'm going insane...
Nousagi be trying to get a grip of his own issues by making a video about Para-social relationships , thus also ending up helping others understand and start thinking about their own issues . You did a very good deed today ! That'll do rabbit , that'll do :)
Oh boi, I didn't expect a bit of one of my clips appearing in this video. Anyway, keep up the good work. Your videos are always entertaining and touch on very interesting topics.
I think I've said this before somewhere in another Nousagi video, but Vox's case boggles my mind back then. I think he knows about the deep end of parasocial relationships because he thrives on the BFE, yet somehow he calls out the fans who harassed Reimu for "ruining" their BFE. What did he think is gonna happen? He played the "Boyfriend" to Chat, another girl barges in talking to their "Boyfriend" during his "special time" with Chat, Chat retaliates and acted like clingy Girlfriends. That is never gonna end well. I'm not defending the harassment, but I'm stating the obvious outcome of the situation that Vox set for himself. That's like playing with fire and complaining the fire burned your hand.
A good healthy reminder that vtubers are people behind the avatar, they have their own lives, and if you think the idol/vtuber/content creator(s) owes you specifically, it is just wrong since idols/vtubers/content creator(s) entertains everyone, you included.
Thanks for these thoughtful videos, Depressed Nousagi. Your insights into the culture and the warnings and advice you give are always well reasoned, well supported, and well intentioned.
I feel fans and content creators need to work together to figure out parasocial issues it can be easy to forget steamers get attached to fans as well, content creators who might appear to be manipulating fans with human parasocial traps might actually be in the same boat,I feel it stems from basic human nature as if you bump into someone you know on the street your brains immediate reaction is to talk to that person whereas the brain can't anticipate the internet
I love this channel! Always a nice dive into the overall state of vtubing, or a look at a liver that's blowing up and how they got there. I'm honestly a huge fan of vtubers in general. I have a few favorites, but I still follow people from at least 4 different agencies and a few indies. Part of why I'm working towards becoming one myself. I know damn well I'm gonna suck at it, and probably have days where nobody is watching me, but I still want to give it a shot
As you Said parasocialism CAN be healthy. Hell i began practicing singing just because some Vtubers made karaoke’s and cover songs. The problem is When they mix up their idea of their relationship with a real one.
@@TaiyoIsSleeping Soup would totally get what I'm saying. It's very much like popping a bubble. You *instantly* remember how small the topic(creator) is, and how absurd any overwhelming commitment is, in the grand scheme of things. Soup pops bubbles all the time, right?
Vtubers, to me, are just like other content creators. They want to entertain, and I as a viewer want to support them in their endeavors. That is the relationship we have, and I believe that’s all it should be. The fact that their cute anime girls with lovable personalities is just a bonus
Calli organizing a TTRPG I used to play with HoloEN inspired me to finally start running my own campaign. I was on the edge for years, but she gave me that push and it has been a blast. Definitely a positive outcome of a parasocial relationship.
Ever since I fell in the rabbit hole I keep thinking to myself "this is perfectly normal right i'm not obsessed with them or anything" and then wondering if that's actually true or am I high on copium
Wasn't sure why I was getting watery eyes while you were just talking facts... Then I realized that you were playing the "I really want to stay at your house" instrumental in the background, you sneaky bastard manipulating my heart strings like that, great video btw.
When you said parasocialism can also be healthy. Then Watame appeared, we do have the same brain cells. "parasocial problem only becomes a problem when you let it become a problem" - Sun Tzu Nousagi
Ok, it's a bit late but I just had to say what a good piece of work this is. All the things that bothered me about Vtubing since I started watching it during the first covid lockdown and more, I just couldn't put it into words like this. I feel that Vtubing has all the usual problems of any online, video activity, plus others unique to and actually encouraged by the genre. So what's next? Parasocial relationships between fans and AI Vtubers?
Thank you for clarifying a lot of things on this video, and I think a lot of people needs to watch this. At least, to enlighten some. I agree people that takes some things to extreme levels(like sending death threats because of stupid reasons, idk) are the worst, but I'd hope they'd assume that not everyone's the same, some are just minding their own business and enjoying things.
actually paracosial relationship first come from the people like back in 70's people start having an idol , either from actrees/actor , athlete etc so it's not influencer the one who start it lets take example from artist , they just do concert , release music , barely interact with fans , but parasocial relationship still exist , there still people who stalk their "oshi" daily live
Really good analysis. It's not easy to say something like "parasocialism can be ok, actually" but I think you are right. Also, you can't just drop the Edgerunners soundtrack on us out of the blue like that 😢
East Asia seems to have a big mental health problem in general, with overworked salarymen and otherwise lonely and isolated people. This problem does however exist worldwide though not in the same intensity. What's worse is that lonely and isolated people are often ridiculed and vilified which effectively traps them in their lonely and isolated existence. It means that they have to survive by themselves. It's absolutely not surprising that capitalism finds a way to profit off of that. But that just deepens the problem instead of solving it.
This video was very well done and highlights all of the sides to this argument perfectly. It's true, there's a spectrum here and it can be both extremely wholesome or highly dangerous. When talking about these issues, I think it's very crucial for people to take a step back and understand that many of these issues are entirely related to mental health. Whether it's parasocial relationships, substances, eating food, anime, celebrities, streamers/VTubers or anything for that matter, there's an old saying that is still gold today: "Everything in moderation". Know your limits and monitor yourself to make sure you're not harming yourself. There are extreme cases in basically everything that exists that can be avoided by individuals being self-aware of their mental health and getting help when it's needed. Of course it's never as easy as it sounds and there are many factors, but I pretty much agree with the points you made about this issue.
I've heard Depressed Nousagi say the word Kayfabe so many times that I've started to get used to it. I legit had to google what that word meant the first time I heard it.
@@nicoleuswhite2192 it did come up as a wrestling term in the dictionary. Is depressed nousagi a wrestling fan?? Hahaha. I'd probably call it a 'character' instead of kayfabe. But I guess it's also pretty fitting in this case.
I was always a big problem for Entertainers i can't make claims on what's worse is it Vtubers or non Vtubers because I just don't have the data to back it up but i can imagine both can be as bad The reason as to why my parasocialism isn't that bad(probably) is 1. I fucking hate the idea of dating, so instantly no weird fantasies 2. I don't get out of my way to get to know the characters/talents' on a simulated "personal" level Lmao if you ask me what my oshi likes i'll probably give you one word answers I just like the interactions, their jokes, and their voices lmao For my case my favorite has to be ollie, She's like that one girl that everyone wants to be friends with, why? cus she's just too damn kind. Do i know her fav color, her fav food, her hobbies, nope. I just need her for my serotonin and dopamine; sounds harsh asf but what I'm saying is those are the boundaries that I set. even before stepping foot into the Vtuber hellhole/rabithole, I was already a firm believer of you are entitled to do what makes you happy. whether it's colabing with Niji, colabing with stars, playing apex everyday for 2 months straight, idc, as long as she's happy doing it I will never sexualize my oshi's(they're real people behind the vtuber veil), I do appreciate some good R34 but I don't actively search and fantasize them, but.. I do tbh utilize some aspects of it when(I have adhd, hard to sleep) my mind is racing around jumping from topic to topic on the bed, i sometimes when idk what to think about, I'll just force myself to fantasize about wholesome shit with my oshi. Somehow in some weird fucking way, it'll calm me down a lot LMAO I consider myself quite safe in terms of parasocialism, from experience i can say, being a bit crazy for someone is a slippery slope exponentially so for people that you literally don't know. I'm wholeheartedly fine with them not knowing me, but I do wholeheartedly love and support them. they're cool asf, how can I not like them. THEY'RE SO FUCKING COOL AUHSLDUFLDSLFFDSL:SFKAIWDA"NVSLN>CLSDFH THEY'RE SOOO COOOOLLL AND CUTTEEEE UGHHGHGKLJDGHS fuck. I love them so much, they're just so NOT perfect i love it. If i have to do a comparison it's like my love for cute animals, oddly similar. edit : now i get why they're called idols, now i get the whole fucking idol thing, so cooooooll
i just wanted to say that i really appreciate the work and effort you clearly put into creating this video it's well made, you presented your thoughts and opinions in a very logical and orderly fashion, and it gave me an opportunity to really take a minute to organise my own thoughts and make sense of my own "flavour" of parasocialism thanks for the great content, hats down, sir 🙏
Before watching the video: The truth is that we will have always a parasocial relationship with close entertainment like streamers, vtubers, lets player, internet content creators... the key is to be... dunno the right word... consious(?) that its not really something substantial. We can enjoy, feel emotions and develop feelings for who we watch. But we also gotta remember they in 99.99% of cases wont know of us and that's okay. Because... huh... dunno how to put that "because" into words... lets see if you can DN
You're not allowed to form parasocial relationships Ayunda Risu. She's my wife, so back off. Bitch.
Edit: Some potential yabs in the video.
Edit 1: Noel's clip at 11:17 may be misrepresenting her. Her actual reason is that she's wary and shy of men, though it doesn't detract from the point I was trying to make, since other Holos had confessed that the reason they wouldn't collab with males was due to their fans and bc they were idols. Thank you. Now go back to risu worshipping
Edit 2: The whole Vox going-to-therapy thing is more complicated than I depicted it. I simplified it for the sake of the point, but do note it's not just about the Reimu drama as to why he's doing it.
I completely understand
Bro chill no one's gonna mess with your wife. Me for Calli
These hands rated E for everyone, even you nousagi 👊👊
Be careful with your nuts next month then 🤣
Guess I have to stop giving nuts
I watched every Depressed Nousagi videos and liked every one of them, he is now my pet rabbit. Back off guys.
halu and have ur GWS pill
He's OUR rabbit. Sharing is caring bruh
@@aleisley5797 Yeah! Can I get the left hind leg? It's the juiciest part.
Can I just have some of the jack daniels
@@aleisley5797 _Soviet Anthem Plays_
WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY “Parasocilism is Worse for Vtuber”, I just donated $2000 to my favourite vtuber so I am basically her husband!!!!!1111
Boooo. I made 3 videos about Suisei and made a stream literally just worshipping her. Three times. I'm basically her fiance at this point.
💀
@@DepressedNousagi 😭😭😭UUUUUUUUUUUUUU
@@DepressedNousagi bruh shaddap you have risu already don't go for suisei this time piste yawa imma fold you and put you in ma pocket
We'll before you get mad that was a joke and sarcasm
@@DepressedNousagi LMAO 😭
Hololive ID branch is the best example of how to deal with parasocial fans. They are inside the Hololive bubble but most of ID members have collabed with male without having any controversy and didn't have to pass certain big drama to purge unhealthy part of their fanbase (Towa case). If you understand Indonesian, you can see any comments complaining about male collab or interaction got downvoted and ratioed to oblivion. They have more direct approach to their fans and already draw the line between fanbase and vtuber since their debut.
as an Indonesian I agree, our whole (vtuber) is my wife is no more than banter/meme aside. in reality we see them just as typical content creator
Who knows the GWS and Halu actually work for holo id to stop deep end parasocial fans
Hmm....i agree
They don't care who the girls are collaborating with as long as there's meme/clip materials
Based Kaela just rejecting any and all attempts at simping outright. “Get some help” lives rent-free in my head thanks to her
Remember, do not donate beyond your ability to support yourself.
And also remember that even if you donate to a streamer/vtuber, doesn't matter if its a low or medium quantity, they're not your friends, lovers or even your clowns. Their job is to entertain an audience of people, but it's up to the audience to decide if they give them money or not. If you do, that's great, if you don't, that's great too! Just do not expect to develop a special relationship with a streamer/vtuber because you give them money.
@@NamasteSpoon exactly just think of it as a tip
Never say sorry for donating "small amount" of money. It still money that will support your oshi
Add to that, do not donate more than what it would be the equivalent of giving a tip for your capacity. it is much better to smartly save and have a good life in the long run.
@@NamasteSpoon The real issue is that some Vtubers have noted that they do believe that fans can become friends with the Vtubers they most support. Some were referring fans becoming friends with them and others were indies seemingly wanting their oshis to consider them friends on their personal account. It is a murky area.
The thing about "parasocialism" is that most of the time it's used as a buzzterm like the term Stan; every person who ever listens or watches shows develops a parasocial interest in the material, it's more so when people develop a addiction to media, as opposed to it initself being all bad.
shut the fuck up, thinking about it for more than 5 seconds is not allowed >:c
@@DepressedNousagi hahaha
I kinda worded it slightly weird; if anyone is confused, no the term 'stan' is what a lot of people conflate to as 'parasocal', but it is two separate ideas
@@EdotJdotOriginal Don't drag poor Stanley into this! he suffered enough!
@@DepressedNousagi why delete "risu is my wife" comment
Parasocial relationships:
* exists *
Nenechi:
Everyone is husband!
News broadcast:
Local vtuber puts an end to parasocial relationships, by offering herself as everyone's wife.
More at 11.
That's actually kinda genius imo. It's basically a self-aware joke that she could benefits from it as well, i think . . . .
@@ShatteredGlass916 Nenechi walked so all the other vtubers could run.
Unfortunately not even Nene can fix this overarching and multiplatform problem
This is a double-edged sword. On one hand it gives her a getaway in case something happens, but on the other it puts a ton of pressure on her as content creator and can backfire anyway with large enough community, because some people are just unreasonable in their obsession. There's still no obvious way to solve this, but getting self-aware is probably the best first step.
@@kindlingking Been a Nekko for almost a year now, Nene insofar has never actually done any sort of Rushia-esque GFE pandering. Her fan-service is more like a dumb sister/daughter act than anything really.
Everyone's mentioning Nene, but I think Polka's system is even more genius. Though she probably doesn't remember about it. "Sure, you're all married to me. But also to each other". She put us into a mutual parasocial relationship with other fans.
AH yes the true endgame, polyamory. Can't exclude anyone if everyone is married. *insert guy point at forehead meme*
@@dropmelon *polkyamory
@@thegreatgonzales6813 Counteroffer: polkamory
8:01
"Vtuber's are easier to objectify."
I specifically like this point since this is the first time I actually thought of this, it makes so much sense that it's scary.
Spending huge amounts of money expecting that they're somehow a part of the Vtuber's life sounds like pulling a character from a Gacha game...
Vtuber gacha
Gacha to destroy genshin
The possibility of splitting the voice actress from the avatar is often forgotten.
These guys haven't thought things through. Pulling these girls in a gacha game might be fun, but catching their attention irl is downright dangerous. I mean just Suisei alone...
Not to mention all the Rule 34 content... oh boy the sweet, sweet Rule 34 content...
They pretty much are like thots
I have been in this hole for 2 years now and am always surprised by how many people fell off to the deep end. I buy into the magic like everyone else, I enjoy whenever my Oshi streams and am happy to hang out with them. However, I still recognize that they are still just doing their job and entertaining the audience no matter how much I watch them I would never really know them or become friends with them. Like Calli said a lot of streamers put themselves out there for the audience but what the viewer sees is only about 20% of the actual Vtuber themself. Maybe it's because my Oshi talks a lot about the working grind is why I have a more clear perception of it being a job. But I digress Great video like always Nousagi keep up the good work
Not everyone is that passive in enjoying their entertainment. Some are more invested than others but that's how it is.
I feel the same I know thier not my friends, it's when people are, lonely that's when these relationships form
Yea. For me there has always been a pretty clear line. I am pretty active in a certain vTuber's Discord and she regularly pops into the Sub-Only section to chat or ask questions so I can totally see why that line can get blurred. Hell, our humor lines up disturbingly well so I could even see her being someone I could really get along with as a friend. That said I have never, and hopefully will never, forget about that line. She is an entertainer and I am a fan. Short of a huge dynamic shift that will never change, and that is okay. Nothing wrong with supporting an entertainer so long as it doesn't cut into my ability to get by. I don't really see my subscription or nay donos as a way to "buy attention or friendship". To me it is like buying tickets to go see my favorite band or comedian.
I hate it when someone begins to believe they've earned some privilege just because they spent a lot of money on an online personality. I've spent literally thousands of dollars on Hololive alone these past 3+ years, and I can't see that being any real leverage. It's like calling up Coca Cola and making demands because you've bought so much of their product.
Same. In fact I wanna see Subaru collab with Maimoto again. When I was still a noob Holofan I actually shipped them... Until I realized that she literally calls him "uncle" 💀 I look at them like they're characters in a slice of life anime, that way I can obsess about them all I want. But whatever they're doing "outside the show" is something I don't wanna bother with tho, which is I don't wanna see their alt channels and face reveals. (UA-cam doxxes them to me anyway, but I try to avert my eyes xD)
What's scary about parasocialism is that some people might not realise that they are being parasocial, I was completely oblivious to how deep am I falling until the Rushia termination, where I noticed how miserable I became over someone else's problems, now I feel better by just the fact that I'm aware of my parasocialism.
Its now becoming harder to tell if its parasocialism or empathy
Since she really did get so hurt inside from the termination
Although most of the talents tried to hide it on stream i can only assume they grieved a lot behind the scenes
And some really just couldnt take it anymore like calli saying she felt sick in the stomach and cancelled her stream when news broke out
Kiara didnt have time to let the news sink in and just broke down during a physical therapy session
Former is a twitter post, latter i found via a clip
I for one am one of those who did felt like shit when news broke out(for real for a lot of us, who didnt?)
I did not start with her initially, it was marine and fubuki
Then eventually i discovered the rest and they are all wonderful(im a subatomo btw)
And i felt what kiara said about loving gen 3 as a whole? Same.exact.feelings.
It's okay to feel bad when something like that happens. I'd say it becomes a problem when the person does something crazy like harassing people over it or wanting to get involved in the situation. But don't feel bad for being concerned.
@@CRAgamer for me Personally, I felt bad because I realised that my life have just become hololive, I used to watch holo members all day everyday, now not only do I have other things I do daily, but I am emotionally and mentally prepared for any member's graduation from hololive, which is a super weird feeling, to feel both regretful AND grateful for what happened to Rushia.
@@e-madart9420 I'd say you're doing good. Just gotta keep being self aware.
I’m 2 months clean of watching vtubers. I had to cut them out cold turkey because I would fall back into a destructive life again: Not exercising, not focusing on hygiene, spending copious amounts of money donating, and not going outside. After I quit watching, I’m doing a lot better in life. Im not angry at the talents, or the agencies. I just had to really look at myself and current situation. It was really difficult to quit watching, but I had to if I wanted to live. For some people, like me, vtubers are dangerous. Really know yourself and decide what is best for you.
Glad you're doing better. Best of luck. 👍
Thanks
I'm on 1 month and I'll keep going. Still watching their funny clips sometimes for laugh, when there's no sunshine and weather is cold, and maybe i'll keep this username until YT take down my account.
Because once a nousagi, always nousagi.
Sounds more like a case of addiction than parasocialism, a destructive lifestyle which could come from a variety of things like gaming. Core important aspect is to remember to keep your life balanced of entertainment as well as like, your actual life. Keep healthy
I had to take an 18 or something months hiatus. Ngl I'm still parasocial af and I can't help myself from falling in love with my oshi, but that time helped me purge some toxic behaviour and I learned that as much as I like her or any other persona, character, etc, the person that I love the most in this world is myself.
I feel like parasocialism has a lot to do with how audiences are treated, as either a collective or individualistic
The culture of parasocialism developed in the west and VTubers is certainly quite interesting to see. I've watched lots of twitch streamers where the chat responds instantly, with wide arrays of emotes on the ready, interacting with each other and building off of each other's jokes. Clips without chat get people complaining, like "no chat dansgame" then you have literal homeless tier streamers like Forsen who will watch entire video and not react an inch, but chat stays because they are there for each other. In the west, you're buying into a community rather than the person.
I think some streamers have also emulated this very well and focused greatly on their community and inside jokes. Marine is a great example, because she's incredibly explicit but treats everyone as a collective rather than seperate individuals. It keeps the focus on the whole rather than themselves. But people like Rushia are a different story. When you're privately messaging the top of the top, there's no community to buy into, but instead one to buy out of - to stand out by spending more. It's why it works so well for generating cash, but it's a ticking time bomb. Going this route you're 100% not satisfying everyone, and the competition from your own chat will definitely drain you
Though rushia is just... on a whole other lever compared to Vox and co used here. Unlike her, their parasocial acts fail because they can't keep up, and it drains them, or makes them call it out eventually (like mysta asking why people trauma dump, causing people to get mad.) Mikeneko keeps up TOO much, the slightest threat to her parasocial domain scares her and she's just... well, yeah, you've seen how she's been recently lol
how has Mikeneko been recently btw? Just curious
I am curious about what you mean when you say the western culture of parasocialism. From what little I know, the same types of behaviors can be observed in K-pop or idol fandoms, and I would think the problem is more so exacerbated by our increasing reliance on technology rather than geographic location.
For sure though, treating fans as a collective helps significantly more. Donations/superchats make it really difficult as a streamer because you want to say thanks without modeling that money is a means for getting the streamer’s attention. I think referring to chat as “chat” tacitly reinforces this boundary. As you mentioned, other streamers collectivize their audience into one entity. Streamers that want to recognize and interact with viewers on-stream that are not colleagues or contributors really risk bringing out these parasocial behaviors from their audience.
Some recent drama. Some gossip UA-camr told her someone was badmouthing her, and she did a kneejerk reaction. Honestly, Mikeneko’s the kind of online personality who needs management the most to keep her from acting on her
Impulses, but her judgement ability just makes me think she won’t be able to choose a proper confidant on her own.
I'm pretty sure rushia and vox are pretty much the same scums... not by person i mean the bf and gf thing...
The parasocial happens on anyone, my friend have people with parasocial relationship with him despite not being an internet personality, but again, it's just the unintentional things that just sort of happen. you can't really guess when it's coming, by the time you realized it... you're best move is literally trying to soften the blow or pull the plug... to which most vtubers chose neither,
It's really beneficial but again, you're just begging to get shoot at by the time people start turning on you...
@@domi8499 I mean she's doing great... let's just say she's been very active in meeting more people
I think my parasocialism has changed a little, post Sana Graduation. I never wanted to have a romantic relationship with any of them but I did put them on a pedestal as someone I relied on for emotional support. Learning more about Sana's back issues, Ina's fatigue and Gura's mental health made them more human to me.
I still wouldn't called it entirely healthy. I went from wanting to be there to support Ina in her hardships, to wanting someone else who can better be there for Ina to support her.
Basically my parasocialism is I'm hoping Ina has a partner/spouse in her life to prevent her from constantly working herself to illness.
I’ve read more and more comments of people realizing that they may have fallen into the parasocial category. I think we all have this natural urge to show empathy and concern when something bad happens to people we care, but because we are essentially just strangers, we don’t really know what to do.
So some fans start following their updates, following their streams religiously to shower them with supportive messages, start getting mad at other fans for casually disagreeing and thinking people do not understand the vtuber as much as they do, start being overly protective of their oshis, develop a special feeling that “I know more about this person than other people do, I really care about them”. Then, when the vtuber is brutally honest about their discomfort over these super parasocial fans, they feel attacked.
Realizing that we may all fall into this easily is what stops us from becoming just as bad as the gachikois.
yeah, i think wishing the best for your oshi is much more on a healthier side, be it their mental health, romantic life or something else. I feel very much the same towards nijisanji boys. Them keeping me company when everything is kinda shit makes me wish they have something or someone that could cheer them up irl
Whenever I think about my oshi graduating I always remind myself
"they're human behind all that tech,
if the character dies(graduates) the person is still alive,
are you really valuing the character more than the person that's bringing that character to life for you?"
which do you value more, the real person that brought you happiness or the character on screen.
@@Tater_Toot wow you really summarised it amazingly, this is gold
Nooo you can't just deny us when we donated our whole fortune to you. You're ours 😭😭😂
Kinda respect some Vtubers that drew lines for their fans. I remembered when Mysta said something about don't treat him not as friend but streamer, he's not a friend but entertainer.
Guess everything in moderation is always good... But when it goes too deep
parasocialism is something i was hoping you would make a video about but i did not expect you to make one this quick
Finally, someone who understands the complexity of parasocial relationships and its importance to the streaming industry.
I'm pretty sure people already know that
@@akira8393 like he said in the video, most people only see in black and white. When they hear "parasocial" they automatically think "oh it bad and maidenless behaviour touch grass".
@@akira8393 They knew but deny it.
To clarify at 7:14, the Reimu drama isn't related to his mental health. If anything, it has more to do with HER mental health after the attacks. His extended break and professional help happened because he is a workaholic who became one due to various factors (which at this moment, he said the diagnosis from his first appointment are still to be revealed) that led him into unhealthy habits, which in turn feed into his own mental health issues, leading to burnout and stress. He did seek help AFTER the Reimu incident, and it could have something to do with that, but as far as I know, there is no causation.
Still in this topic, a lot of streamers (not just in Nijisanji) are overworked workaholics with building up stress and no guidance, and Vox's entire "health arc" is also aligning with his desire to incentivize both viewers and coworkers to also seek help for anything that goes with them behind the scenes.
I could be wrong, though!
Uhh, Vox HIMSELF had emotional dependence on his audience, hence his half-cocked response which put Reimu in a corner. Yeah, he tried his best to fix that later on by calling out his fanatics, but he was part of the problem.
his mental health did effect this situation tho as he stated his anxiety and not wanting to hurt anyone and feeling like he was pushed into a corner and not knowing what is the best thing to say that wouldnt potentially hurt hus fans, made him believe that staying quiet was the best way to approach it as he was one of those people that think if you stay quiet people will stop being assholes since they see no reaction....and he was majorly wrong
on top of that him being a workaholic at the time, he never allowed himself to have any breaks and kept on overworking himself mentally, its only after what happened it reimu he finally came clean and addressed everything and admitted he needs and gonna get help and a break
I am a small vtuber and I have already experienced some of my fans showing parasocialism with me. It started as heathly where some of them would wake up a bit early or stay up an hour late just to watch my streams. However, It has gotten so bad that I've had to block/ban as I could tell that one just wanted to date me him by wanting to play games or talk to him whenever I was not streaming. I know that every content creator will experience some unhealthy parasocial, but I was not expecting my first experience when I got 500 followers.
Sorry you had to experience that. Hope that person's sat down with someone or at least left your fanbase.
All he want was to play games with you nothing wrong with that. I bet you take money from him and dump him aside like a hoe
You simp for your Oshi so she'll be your girlfriend. I simp for my Oshi so he'll be my grandpa. We are not the same
Pathetic! I simp for my Oshi so I can become my Oshi. *_Pomufication intensifies_*
Does he have air conditioning?
Vesper?
They want Ring Fit Adventure streams to hear their oshis moan. I want biking streams to hear my oshi smile
I simp for my oshi because she’s just like me fr fr
My thoughts, opinions, and speculations as a Kindred (Vox):
Whether the correct term actually is "menhera" in this case, I think Vox hints that he's been like that even before joining Nijisanji, which is unfortunate because we don't know what caused him to dive deep in depression. Then after joining Nijisanji, he broke out of that depression through his fans (even admitting several times that he's happy to be alive /now/), and that's why he was so attached to his fans as much some of his fans then were (and unfortunately some now who haven't learned their lesson, but we try to ratio them as much as possible). After the BF ASMR incident, he was snapped in reality by fans that we're not his everything, as just he's not anyone's therapist, and that we're also not his therapy. Vox's now taking steps to finally treat his mental problems with therapy and updating and enforcing his rules properly, which in itself it applaudable.
And his tweet at 8:50... yeah, more "seasoned" Kindred just dismissed that as drunk Vox (and honestly, sometimes we're sick of it, but you can see some Kindred whose first language isn't English in the comment trying to comment on this, but unable to see the joke/pick up on sarcasm, which itself is another problem) because he does Saturday streams where the premise is to get drunk while talking to vtubers in and outside Niji about whatever, and even he's recognizing that drinking every week like that isn't healthy, so he's taking a break from it.
Thank you for making this video. Every time I see some Twitter/4chan drama surrounding a bunch of so-called “fans” harassing VTubers for basically just having lives outside of them or just having friends of the opposite gender, it makes me sick. These streamers are all incredibly talented and funny people, and yet people need to acknowledge that they’re just that - _people_ - and not some trophy wife/husband to project on and be entitled to. They deserve better than that level of toxic attachment, and I’m glad that you’ve addressed it so concisely and honestly.
Edit: Someone in the replies pointed this out, but in the case of a Rushia scenario where the liver actively tries to be more exclusive towards their community, fans acting entitled to her are still completely unjustified. However, I do agree that Rushia should have known better than to indulge her fanbase's more parasocial tendencies, and while I understand her paranoia and desire for attention, her actions still actively made the situation far worse. The audience has a responsibility to treat the performer with respect, but that responsibility also extends to the performers themselves.
GOD FORBID those so called "fans" EVER start a Vtuber agency.
@@longislandicedtea6323 That would be the literal worst-case scenario
"incredibly talented and funny people"
Hololive En do not fit this description, is it ok to harass them?
@@aburabure I think you need to buy a new dictionary. And the answer is no, by the way, it is _never_ okay to harass anyone just because you don't find them funny. Thank you for your time.
@@halfmettlealchemist8076 Something tells me that dude is 100% the kind of "fan" I was talking about.
after watching vox i started to shit better, i think most of my indigestion problems are gone. I take parasocial dumps with my favorite vtubers when they shit i suddenly feel like shitting, it has helped me tremendously
Well.. thats a new one. Ngl that got a laugh out of me but damn brother hope your bowels be good and that microbiome doin well.
LMAO this made me shit
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@noval1t yeah m8 i feel like i can give birth right now its incredible
Ok it's not just me thank god 🤣
This is why I really appreciate Kaela reminding her chat to get some help!
I recently saw a clip a few weeks ago where Fulgur, post-debut, immediately set his boundaries and let his audience know that he isn't their friend. He immediately gained more respect from me. That's what I want to see more of from people; not being afraid to let their viewers know that they are an entertainer first and foremost and that they are not their therapist or boyfriend/girlfriend. That's why I LOVED Vox's stream where finally put his foot down!
Too bad those fans aren't gonna go away, not even Vox can fix that and Fulgur, well Fulgur is Fulgur.
@@BeyondDaX Not even Vox can fix that... *as long as he's doing ASMR stream*
@@victoriazero8869 Yeah those ASMR streams aren't helping him at all.
@@BeyondDaX welll tbf vox already stated hard that he will not change his content that his usual audiences enjoyed just because some braindead minority being loud and even clarified to read the title being RP and not dating stuff. In the end it depends on the fans brain too
@@dohnaseek That it does depend on the fans. Its up to them to interpret that he is just doing this for entertainment and nothing else.
one thing I remember when VTuber culture was booming, "don't go into the rabbit hole, if you did, don't go to deep into it."
The scary part is, anyone can fall into the deep end. I'm lucky I have people around me to keep me grounded, but without them, I might've never gotten out of it. I used to watch vtubers for almost 12 hours a day. It was rough. Glad I'm starting to limit myself and using that time to doother things. Keep it in moderation and remember that real relationships are always better than a parasocial relationship.
Unfortunately in this society, especially in asia. They need these parasocial relationships even in a time where things are becoming worse and worse. Not everyone is fortunate.
I've remained grounded hard as my reason to give vtubers a looksie is because they are ostensibly a new, novel sort of animu character or method of presenting animu characters.
Neat I guess
@@typehere6689 That's the way. They're just a relatively new form of entertainment. The vtubers are the performers and we're just the audience.
"Chat giving you money so you feel like you have to give something in return. So you ended up giving them your vulnerabilities."
This sounds like those quotes you have to hang on a wall orp ut on shirt as a warning or belongs in r/TwoSentenceHorror.
When I was watching this, Vox has a crazy fan speeding in chat so many red super chats
There is something to be said about the HUGE market that has been made out of monetizing men's lonliness. I've seen streamers and Vtubers alike target men emotionally with "I love you, I'm your e girlfriend/virtual girlfriend, sexual talk and innuendos towards the viewers and donaters, etc " it's all a proven marketing tactic to get the viewers (primarily lonely males) to give money as when someone is emotionally attached to the person/character, they are more likely to spend money. It's just that these men are expecting/believing the words from these entertainers as "truth or real feelings" and find themselves wanting to do more to get their attention which is by giving more money. In the end they will never have that true companionship/relationship they think they will get in the end. It's a cut throat industry,
I recently listened to Template by Suisei, it gives me things about the parasocialism and the effects of it to the point where their life are on the edge. I recommend the song in case you have time to spare 👍
It is an amazing song and it has a great underlying message about parasocial relationships
I think Mumei solves this problem in the most efficient way possible by breaking away from her character (just a bit) from time to time.
In one livestream titled "Mumei Draws HOLOLIVE #2" she even straight up reminded chat by saying "just remember, nothing is real" before ending the stream.
tbh mumei's contents and her personality didn't really attract the parasocial type of viewers in the first place. she was very nervous and awkward when she first debuted, and chat was filled with "must protecc", they treated her like a younger sister/daughter. after a few months she became relaxed enough (but still awkward and we love her for that) she and her chat became the classic "me and the bois" since she's so relatable.
I see mumei as a hard working example of modesty. As shes the only Vtuber I watch me and the other hoomans always want her to take breaks. She has so much on her plate and never tries to "seduce" or "win over" her chat or fans. She streams, she yells at chat when we deserve it, etc. She thanks us for when we help her in games or when hoomans make art or games, for or of her. 10/10 would reccommend idowl
Good video bruv ✌️
You’re one of the only UA-camrs I trust to reliably cover sensitive topics like this one
Honestly I think I might be parasocially in love with you
Shit fr? S-Souka.... w-will you give me your credit card number and the three digits on the back, t-then? Arigatou
I have experienced parasocialism only once. It wasn't for a vtuber, and I was already friends with the person. It didn't last too long, and I feel like I have learned from it. This was like 10 years ago and hasn't happened again.
For vtubers though, I just can't imagine how I would ever see them as anything more than an entertainer, unless I was also an entertainer and tried to befriend them.
Me too. I followed a UA-cam streamer from a very niche channel at the time. I watched everything she was on, even sent a gift to her P.O. Box once. I realized I wasn’t just loving her content, but her as a person too. And then, she started doing solo streams at twitch. And became BIG. Not millions of views, but some hundred every stream. And I started to notice I wasn’t a “fan” anymore, I was just a number at this point. Before, I was one of the 10 or 20 watchers, I felt close. Now, I’m one of 800.
But then, it hit me: oh, I’m just being a creep at this point. Thinking I have (or had) any chance to become close to this streamer is borderline psychotic. She didn’t know I existed before, she does even less now. I didn’t know the concept of parasocialism before, but I was experiencing the definition of it.
I had to cut ties entirely to move on. Blocked her in every social media, to “detox” myself. I also learned a lot about myself from this episode.
@@douglanmar wow big ups to you bro it takes an absurd amount of introspection to view yourself and actions objectively. Very proud of you :)
honestly, as much as I too like to harp on "the parasocials" when they get to be too much, the parasocial aspect between entertainer and audience is always there. it's just a degree of when it's healthy and when it becomes consuming.
as a kpop fan for years, i've taken many breaks from actively following the idols i like/liked and it still took me a long time to get out of the "being ___'s fan is my personality" mentality. i guess getting older and thinking "this is just a hobby" helped a lot. setting boundaries and all that jazz.
I loved this video as it's a topic that needs to be discussed in any community . . . But ngl I got a bit distracted at the end when you started playing instrumental of "I really want to stay at your house" XD.
Yeah, I was like, do you really have to hurt us like that? lol
Leave it to Nousagi to not be afraid to discuss the more touchy subjects of the vtubing world as well as deliver me my health dose of copium. (He just like me, fr.)
Nousagi better be careful, if he keeps spilling truth like he is I may start catching feelings. (He just like me, fr.)
You hit the right nail Nousagi, be balance when you supporting your oshi
SUPERTHANSK ARIGATAIII
I have done my study on parasocial relationship as a psychology student it can be really bad in some cases and terrible hard as sh*t to fix sometimes
As you said it can be good if kept in check but it can spiral out of control if not careful
In truth I am also in a parasocial relationship with some small streams and I have to keep it all in check.
I love watching them, hanging out with them and lol playing with them but gota maintain and balance my self
Vox showing up so many times got me dying inside 💀
But that aside, you make really great points and arguments always. I never even thought of the idea that the industry thrives off of parasocial relationships until you pointed it out. I have always felt alone in the opinion that parasocialism can be healthy to an extent. Glad to see that that is not a case!
I myself can count under the healthy side of parasocialism. Various content creators over the years have helped me shaped who I am and improved myself. They helped me discover hobbies and passion I would have never tried if it weren’t for me seeing them try it. But of course, it’s a responsibility of mine as a viewer to keep myself grounded in reality.
I’m glad that you point out that parasocialism is a two way street because often times I see one party being blamed over the other. It’s definitely more nuanced than it usually is perceived as.
Something that I wish that the industry finds an answer to is how much responsibility is on the Vtuber and how much is the viewer’s? I understand some Vtubers make more risqué and fanservice-y type of content because that’s what they like to make. I’d like to think most cases this isn’t done purposefully to lure gachikois in, but rather it’s what they enjoy doing. But the question is, should they be put at fault? How much fanservice is too much fanservice? Should they regularly put their viewers back in their place to make sure no one steps out of line?
Vtubers or even real life celebrities/people can only do so much to control fans, and at some points, the responsibility falls onto the fan’s shoulder. One thing is that clicking the ‘yes’ button on twitch saying that a stream contains adult content even when the viewer is not even an adult. The fan’s over indulging in their fantasies and being delusional enough into thinking they’re true. It’s hard to regulate such a big audience especially since the Vtubers aren’t aware of their existence. It’s not easy to get rid of them as they can just silently watch or make a new account.
I hope that all content creators find the balance that creates a safe space for escape and relief to an audience while fans keep their distance. As you said, there are already existing Vtubers who found that, and that’s good. It shows that there is still an existing line that keeps both parties in their own bounds.
Anyway, those are my two cents. I have always found myself thinking about this topic for a long time. And while it’s a prevalent issue, I don’t really think it’s being talked about enough in a civilized manner, where one side is not putting more blame on the other. So I’m very happy I found this video! Much success to you Nousagi!
Mind you, there was that recent CN Vtuber who got outed by his kinda-sorta ex-girlfriend as being an abuser who just treated her as a means to clout and who even called his own fans his wallets or something. Think he collabed once with Vox? Someone from Niji, anyway. Then there was that recent case with the guy who tried to present AI art as his own.
Some people are into vtubing for clout and money, and they have no qualms with taking advantage of parasocialism for their own benefit.
Anyone who dips a toe into the business of providing a boyfriend/girlfriend experience to their viewers should do so with the awareness that the internet is a big place that lets them connect to pretty much anyone in the world, and that includes people who are especially susceptible to this kind of thing. Cater to the people who want this kind of content, sure, but it’s important that anyone who does this and has a consciousness knows how to draw a line in the sand, not only to protect themselves from some of their viewers, but to protect those viewers as well from their impulses. Pretty much just do their due diligence in the situation to whatever extent most anyone would find reasonable.
I mean maybe from the Vtubers you watch might not be... but just go find Indies and most of them doing it on purpose for the gachis...
Do i think it's a blame on Vtubers, yes.
Not that they can control the parasocial relationship but at the same I don't ever seen any vtuber tries to be careful with these things, They usually voiced it out when it's get too far and by that point you pretty much find it harder to fix it...
To say content creator will find a solution is something I don't think is gonna happen... parasocial makes big for them, there's not to say that no one ever does it but usually the ones that do are usually those who are barely noticeable, For what twitch is, it's really been good at finding those who don't even have views at all, and They are really talented compared to most vtubers that you watched... but since they aren't skillful in terms of talking to audiences, they only kept around 10 or 12 or even none at all...
In the end, those that made it big have used the parasocial crap... it's only the question of... can you handle it, and to for Vtubers, the answer is a solid "no. i just don't give a fuck"
"I never even thought of the idea that the industry thrives off of parasocial relationships"
how? its like, the bread and butter of almost everything why do you think Rushia was a top earner and also doing GFE most of the time?
@@GrEEnF1Re1 I mean ignorance at its best, you don't question the product you just consume them
@@GrEEnF1Re1 I’ve been recently new to the scene of Vtubers, especially corporate-owned ones. Just got into them around April this year. Even then, my circle is still very limited and I don’t really step out or regularly watch other than those I am already familiar with. The issue with Rushia was and still is quite a news for me. I have been updated through Nousagi’s video though, but I never really was there when Rushia was streaming. When I tried watching indie Vtubers, they were what I expected from regular streamers: just streaming and chatting, not much fanservice from what I observed. Aside from that, that information never really sunk in my brain, I guess. I always keep my foot on the ground and just give myself a constant reality check, so maybe that’s why I never really noticed it?
Now, this video should be recommend to anyone who want to join a famous vtuber agency...
Cuz, you will get a shit ton of attention from all sorts of people. The wannabe unicorns, wannabe bicorns, wannabe husbands, wannabe bf/gf, wannabe friends/families, antis, etc.
You should really prepare your mentality and don't forget to turn off sns notifications when streaming.
I feel like when it comes to superchats there should be a feature for streamers to reject the money from them.
It's gotta feel fucking gross taking money from the people who trauma dump on them.
that takes vtubers having honour in the first place
Meh, just think the bad money belong to UA-cam 30% share. You dont need think so hard and the sc do nothing to you life. Nutshell thanks to greedy of Susan.😂
Correct me if I'm wrong but now UA-cam have feature that allows the streamer to delete SC messages. Idk if they still get the money though.
You can actually delete SC messages; Lui from holoX did that on stream once. I'm not sure whether the streamer can manually refund a SC though.
I'm not sure if I remember it correctly, an aka supa was sent to a vtuber before just to share his disappointment and the vtuber said she'll talk to mane chan to help her refund the money because they don't need to send aka supa just to show their disappointment
Great video! Surprisingly well written and informative insight into this culture that drives the vtuber community. As someone who got into vtubers in late 2019 im glad someone took the time to explain and address this issue that has frighteningly become pretty much the norm.
Vtubers or streamers themselves must draw a line on their debut and occasional warnings from time to time to avoid the unhealthy parasocialism from their own fans.
Rushia's case should be used as a learning material.
Fulgur did that: he specifically said and wrote in his video descriptions since day 1 that he didn't want any form of parasocialism, he always refused to read comments or even supas that felt parasocial and never said or did stuff that was requested to him through supas. And now his fanbase is arguably one of the healthiest I know.
Also luckily I've seen more vtubers trying to fix the mistakes that led to parasocialism, especially after the whole Rushia issue: they're avoiding asmr that might be risky, and/or explicitly calling out chat for trauma-dumping/babying/being parasocial.
Thank you for explaining.
Therefore I won't feel too terrible about myself and I will try my best to control myself from diving/submerging too deep. *Tips hat*
im glad you made this video, many ppl naively think they can avoid these things or that for them it will be different. you pointing out its inseparably connected to the activity needs to be shown. its existed online since even the early age of Youtubing when pewdiepie was young though it is as you say more prone to happen in streaming.
Vtubers aren''t your therapist
Meanwhile Kiara with that one Cancer Superchat.
"When one escapes reality" there was a time where I thought I understood the meaning of this when it comes to escaping from the harshness of the real world to recharge oneself, but it was when I learned of those who "left for good" that I see the abyss that I could've fell had I not been careful in separating fantasy from reality. It still terrifies me how I could've easily dropped down that path had it not been for the support of those close to me.
This made me remeber one conversation i had with a teacher about people´s obsession, how it can make people create and commit to their jobs with encouragement and a positive view , however when your obsession is about something you cannot control, like being obsessed with someone else, it can ruin you. everybody needs an obsession to give themselves a mission to work towards, but you need to have control over it.
I've threaded the dangerous parasocial sides in other medias and fandoms the dependency is awful.
Which is why I now often humor about them graduating and having relationships with their neighbors. Etc. To ground myself.
@@TaiyoIsSleeping sounds about right.
Same
Your video kinda reminds me of a vid made by a vtuber called Yam Koumori a few weeks ago, points are really similar and I can see the shared vision on the whole topic, however, I see a difference in how the video got received on her end.
Since she's a vtuber people treated her like she should be grateful for gachis, and she was envious of not having those in the first place.
It's the parasocialism in people talking and feeling called out by someone they don't think it's adequate to be called out by. As you mentioned, when people get parasocial it can take a massive hit to the streamer's mental health since every time they break the image someone had of them on their mind they get hate for it. We shouldn't blame vtubers who want nothing to do with that since they're witnessing the results of letting their audience do whatever they please, and that's what happened to her, she got a considerable amount of comments calling her biased for not wanting to play into the parasocial game, and I think it's something to think about as a community.
Just in time!
*grabs popcorn*
Having watching Vtubers for quite some time now, a couple of them have done some real talk about parasocialism... and it really took a turn where I didn't expect. Parasocialism is a two way street, that the streamer/VTuber will genuinely look forward to see their chat, sometimes individual names & sometimes (eg out shopping) may wonder or want to tell their audience something (as you would a friend)
Now to be clear, it's almost always on the healthy side, it helps drive them to give their best as they care about their audience/fans & some are completely detached from this, purposely keeping a 6ft pole for that reason.
For me personally, It was just really cool to hear the perspective of a couple from the other side of the fence.
In the end of the day, having the knowledge that the VTuber cares about their audience is a gentle nice reminder that they are also human & should always be treated with respect (as you would any other person).
I'm sure in the years to come that studies will be done on socialism & it will be a similar result to video games. That being a healthy schedule around games (with a balanced social life & school/work) does indeed have benefits. (I won't get into the details here, but it's certainly very interesting and only a google search away for those genuinely interested)./
First their was Radio and eventually you could call up the radio station to answer the quiz question of the day... years went on and Television (killed the radio star..&) came out with a bang. Programs were done live... so yes.. just like streams, except there were no VODs & certainly no way to communicate back. These days the news feels more like a show with it's reporters doing live broadcast amongst people in the real world.. It wasn't just anime, Hatsunie Miku & Kizune Ai blazing a trail towards VTubers (though each very important in their own right). It's been headed in this direction for a long time.
I wonder if at some point there will be a chat box on the news... no doubt with bots to delete anything unsavory ofcause.. More interaction & convenience is where things are headed.
Thank you! People misrepresenting parasocialism is so obnoxious.
I think the hardest thing about this situation, is realising that you're in too deep yourself and getting help.
no i think it's denial that's makes it even worse
@@akira8393 Ah yes, that too.
Meanwhile, there's Roberu and his fans who have claimed him as their son and is willing to hand off said son to any willing woman, lol
😏 based son
He is truly winning lol
His interaction with Mea is the best
Rule 16. There are NO girls on the internet.
Holostars fans are based af ngl
@@poom323
That actually rule30
Rule16 is "If you fail in epic proportion, it may become a winning failure"
I really appreciate the way you have framed "parasocial" here, as it gets at one of my lingering frustrations with how this term is deployed in many of these controversies. Namely, people often treat the term as if it captures the most extreme, unhealthy, or dangerous examples of fan interaction, or basically as if being parasocial on any level is actually something that could conceivably be avoided in this space (e.g., "stop being parasocial"). But online sociality doesn't really exist outside of parasocial relationships, because really this term tends to just refer to mediated relationships in the first place, and those relationships can take form in as wide of a variety as "real" relationships. And relationships in general can be really good or really bad, unhealthy, or dangerous. Basically, there is no outside of parasociality here - we can't just tell people to not be parasocial, we have to address the actual behaviour - "social" or "parasocial," it isn't okay to harass people.
It always seemed really weird to me how these people would nonchalantly donate thousands in currency just to get their vtubers to acknowledge them. I was just never really ever to wrap my head around the idea of giving these perfect strangers money that you don't even really know anything at all about.
Nice use of I Really Want to Stay at Your House at the end there.
love how thoughtful and nuanced your scripts are, especially lately. excellent video once again!
There was a moment where i was really deep into it. Wasn't comfortable with where it took me, and was also getting burnt out on all the contraversy stories. Seemed like u couldn't breath without one popping up in your feed. I still watch but not nearly as much as i used to
Yeah it’s important to know where to draw the line. People also gotta be more financially responsible if they’re broke but are like “but I gotta support my oshi/fav streamer, etc.” I’m just here to meme and have fun with streamer and chat
To be honest, sub to vtuber as members make me financial my stuff a lot. No more crazy spend, it maybe small to other people, but it big for wild spender plus learned how currency work and effective online order?
I like how you mention that parasocialism isn't a one way street, but both influencer and fan basically fall into it, and that not every parasocial relationship is a bad or negative thing. I've always said that falling into one is inevitable, you will find a streamer or creator, or even fictional character, that pushes all the right buttons, but people need to understand boundaries and understand the fact that you basically have no shot in meeting them outside of streams or events.
I think an underappreciated fact is that fandom actually *can* become real friendship, though it's only a tiny fraction of the time. For fans of streamers, channel regulars can become moderators, and moderators can become friends. Deranged stalkers aren't generally chosen as moderators, but people with an unhealthy level of parasocialism can fantasize about that path for themselves.
Another path is streamers who were unknowingly fans of one another. Ironmouse was a huge fan of Nyanners, and vice versa. Once they got big and actually met, they became best friends. Or maybe a streamer notices a very small creator, likes their content, and starts promoting them. Someone with an unhealthy obsession might imagine that path for themselves; "oh, maybe if I become a streamer she'll notice me..."
I sometimes wonder if the public interactions between streamers and fans make parasocialism a bigger problem, or just a more visible one, or a combination of the two... We generally don't see the obsessed fan letters from fans to traditional celebrities. I mean, there was a guy who saw Taxi Driver then shot the President of the United States. Vtuber obsession hasn't gotten that bad yet...
As joining into vtuber fandom, I actually learn about healthy parasocial relationship from other fandom. I used to didn't care, tend to looking down, of kpop fans and any hobbyist who spent money a lot for their hobby. After I following vtuber fandom, now I understand of people desire on their hobby and interest. Vtuber fans cheer on their favorite vtuber a lot seems not different with kpop fans, and of course any other fans, like certain idol, diva, musician, etc. Seeing lot of people do support their favorite vtuber by donating makes me more respect on people who spent their money and resources on their hobbies. I guess, joining vtuber fandom community teach me that parasocial relation is just like knife wich can be used for good and bad things. And it also teach me about respect to effort of desire for having any interest.
Honestly I think a lot of people need to see this and was a good subject to hit upon. It made me take a step back and look at myself and realize how close I have been to the tipping point of going too far
When you're actually in love with someone who doesn't even know you, instead of simply imagining (love) scenarios and then coming back to reality, that's when you might have a problem. Escapism is normal, the degree matters. You can abuse cheeseburgers or workouts for escapism too, nothing new.
But the problem is, if that temporary "escapism" turned into a "problem" one day. The person tends to get back at the one started it for ruining their "escapism".
No one says its bad, Just people causing problems for other people with it.
Ah yes cheeseburger abuse, my favourite weekend activity
JESSE GET ME MY CHEESEBURGER
It's a slippery slope indeed, but it's not something you can't manage
just have to come into it with the right mindset on what you're using it for and set the boundaries correctly.
I use escapism to calm my mind down cus it's the easiest thing to think about
but yes, i've seen some.. let's just say, unsightly behavior, especially on that god-forsakened app, Twitter
Great video, however my dumb minecraft brain *always* wants the weighted pressure plate to be pressed, when something is sitting on top of it... i think i'm going insane...
Nousagi be trying to get a grip of his own issues by making a video about Para-social relationships , thus also ending up helping others understand and start thinking about their own issues . You did a very good deed today ! That'll do rabbit , that'll do :)
Oh boi, I didn't expect a bit of one of my clips appearing in this video.
Anyway, keep up the good work. Your videos are always entertaining and touch on very interesting topics.
I think I've said this before somewhere in another Nousagi video, but Vox's case boggles my mind back then. I think he knows about the deep end of parasocial relationships because he thrives on the BFE, yet somehow he calls out the fans who harassed Reimu for "ruining" their BFE.
What did he think is gonna happen? He played the "Boyfriend" to Chat, another girl barges in talking to their "Boyfriend" during his "special time" with Chat, Chat retaliates and acted like clingy Girlfriends. That is never gonna end well. I'm not defending the harassment, but I'm stating the obvious outcome of the situation that Vox set for himself. That's like playing with fire and complaining the fire burned your hand.
A good healthy reminder that vtubers are people behind the avatar, they have their own lives, and if you think the idol/vtuber/content creator(s) owes you specifically, it is just wrong since idols/vtubers/content creator(s) entertains everyone, you included.
Unfortunately, not everyone is gonna get that message. It is what it is.
@@BeyondDaX it is worth trying
Thank you. Just because you send a large amount of money does not mean you've purchased their time
That's why parasocial relationships form.
The case of Rushia is complicated because she WAS cultivating the worst possible fanbase imaginable
Thanks for these thoughtful videos, Depressed Nousagi. Your insights into the culture and the warnings and advice you give are always well reasoned, well supported, and well intentioned.
I feel fans and content creators need to work together to figure out parasocial issues it can be easy to forget steamers get attached to fans as well, content creators who might appear to be manipulating fans with human parasocial traps might actually be in the same boat,I feel it stems from basic human nature as if you bump into someone you know on the street your brains immediate reaction is to talk to that person whereas the brain can't anticipate the internet
I love this channel! Always a nice dive into the overall state of vtubing, or a look at a liver that's blowing up and how they got there. I'm honestly a huge fan of vtubers in general. I have a few favorites, but I still follow people from at least 4 different agencies and a few indies. Part of why I'm working towards becoming one myself. I know damn well I'm gonna suck at it, and probably have days where nobody is watching me, but I still want to give it a shot
As you Said parasocialism CAN be healthy. Hell i began practicing singing just because some Vtubers made karaoke’s and cover songs.
The problem is When they mix up their idea of their relationship with a real one.
Knocked it out of the park, Nousagi. Well done.
Parasocial stuff breaks so fast when you have friends outside a fandom.
"Isn't it crazy blank did blank?"
"Who? BTW, who's covering the drinks?"
Yepp. It's great to be in a group who are nerds of varying fields.
@@TaiyoIsSleeping Soup would totally get what I'm saying. It's very much like popping a bubble. You *instantly* remember how small the topic(creator) is, and how absurd any overwhelming commitment is, in the grand scheme of things.
Soup pops bubbles all the time, right?
@@Bluemilk92 YES. EXACTLY.
Thanks for the opinion , i agree with you and its likely all the entertainment industries base on this , it hurt to know the truth. "Talk to myself"
Vtubers, to me, are just like other content creators. They want to entertain, and I as a viewer want to support them in their endeavors. That is the relationship we have, and I believe that’s all it should be. The fact that their cute anime girls with lovable personalities is just a bonus
Nope disagree. Without fans the girls will be nothing. They should be our friend like it or not
Get a life lol
Calli organizing a TTRPG I used to play with HoloEN inspired me to finally start running my own campaign. I was on the edge for years, but she gave me that push and it has been a blast. Definitely a positive outcome of a parasocial relationship.
Ever since I fell in the rabbit hole I keep thinking to myself "this is perfectly normal right i'm not obsessed with them or anything" and then wondering if that's actually true or am I high on copium
Wasn't sure why I was getting watery eyes while you were just talking facts... Then I realized that you were playing the "I really want to stay at your house" instrumental in the background, you sneaky bastard manipulating my heart strings like that, great video btw.
When you said parasocialism can also be healthy. Then Watame appeared, we do have the same brain cells.
"parasocial problem only becomes a problem when you let it become a problem" - Sun Tzu Nousagi
yeah so the best move is to ignore it... damn he must've taken notes from a Minecraft let's plays or something
Ok, it's a bit late but I just had to say what a good piece of work this is. All the things that bothered me about Vtubing since I started watching it during the first covid lockdown and more, I just couldn't put it into words like this.
I feel that Vtubing has all the usual problems of any online, video activity, plus others unique to and actually encouraged by the genre.
So what's next? Parasocial relationships between fans and AI Vtubers?
It's already happening without the VTuber part.
I fell for the parasocial deal.
Being alone for so many years made me like that.
I have to take a week off from vtubers and get my common sense back.
Thank you for clarifying a lot of things on this video, and I think a lot of people needs to watch this. At least, to enlighten some. I agree people that takes some things to extreme levels(like sending death threats because of stupid reasons, idk) are the worst, but I'd hope they'd assume that not everyone's the same, some are just minding their own business and enjoying things.
actually paracosial relationship first come from the people
like back in 70's people start having an idol , either from actrees/actor , athlete etc
so it's not influencer the one who start it
lets take example from artist , they just do concert , release music , barely interact with fans , but parasocial relationship still exist , there still people who stalk their "oshi" daily live
Really good analysis. It's not easy to say something like "parasocialism can be ok, actually" but I think you are right.
Also, you can't just drop the Edgerunners soundtrack on us out of the blue like that 😢
East Asia seems to have a big mental health problem in general, with overworked salarymen and otherwise lonely and isolated people. This problem does however exist worldwide though not in the same intensity. What's worse is that lonely and isolated people are often ridiculed and vilified which effectively traps them in their lonely and isolated existence. It means that they have to survive by themselves. It's absolutely not surprising that capitalism finds a way to profit off of that. But that just deepens the problem instead of solving it.
This video was very well done and highlights all of the sides to this argument perfectly. It's true, there's a spectrum here and it can be both extremely wholesome or highly dangerous. When talking about these issues, I think it's very crucial for people to take a step back and understand that many of these issues are entirely related to mental health. Whether it's parasocial relationships, substances, eating food, anime, celebrities, streamers/VTubers or anything for that matter, there's an old saying that is still gold today: "Everything in moderation". Know your limits and monitor yourself to make sure you're not harming yourself. There are extreme cases in basically everything that exists that can be avoided by individuals being self-aware of their mental health and getting help when it's needed. Of course it's never as easy as it sounds and there are many factors, but I pretty much agree with the points you made about this issue.
I've heard Depressed Nousagi say the word Kayfabe so many times that I've started to get used to it. I legit had to google what that word meant the first time I heard it.
As a former wrestling fan I've heard it many times. It's professional improv acting, so it isn't wrong to call our vtubers as actors/actresses.
@@nicoleuswhite2192 it did come up as a wrestling term in the dictionary. Is depressed nousagi a wrestling fan?? Hahaha. I'd probably call it a 'character' instead of kayfabe. But I guess it's also pretty fitting in this case.
@_*ZAPATOZ*_ niche character kinda works, but I think gimmick is pretty different?
I was always a big problem for Entertainers
i can't make claims on what's worse is it Vtubers or non Vtubers because I just don't have the data to back it up
but i can imagine both can be as bad
The reason as to why my parasocialism isn't that bad(probably) is
1. I fucking hate the idea of dating, so instantly no weird fantasies
2. I don't get out of my way to get to know the characters/talents' on a simulated "personal" level
Lmao if you ask me what my oshi likes i'll probably give you one word answers
I just like the interactions, their jokes, and their voices lmao
For my case my favorite has to be ollie,
She's like that one girl that everyone wants to be friends with, why? cus she's just too damn kind.
Do i know her fav color, her fav food, her hobbies, nope. I just need her for my serotonin and dopamine;
sounds harsh asf but what I'm saying is those are the boundaries that I set.
even before stepping foot into the Vtuber hellhole/rabithole, I was already a firm believer of you are entitled to do what makes you happy.
whether it's colabing with Niji, colabing with stars, playing apex everyday for 2 months straight, idc, as long as she's happy doing it
I will never sexualize my oshi's(they're real people behind the vtuber veil), I do appreciate some good R34 but I don't actively search and fantasize them, but..
I do tbh utilize some aspects of it when(I have adhd, hard to sleep) my mind is racing around jumping from topic to topic on the bed, i sometimes when idk what to think about, I'll just force myself to fantasize about wholesome shit with my oshi. Somehow in some weird fucking way, it'll calm me down a lot LMAO
I consider myself quite safe in terms of parasocialism,
from experience i can say, being a bit crazy for someone is a slippery slope
exponentially so for people that you literally don't know.
I'm wholeheartedly fine with them not knowing me, but I do wholeheartedly love and support them.
they're cool asf, how can I not like them.
THEY'RE SO FUCKING COOL AUHSLDUFLDSLFFDSL:SFKAIWDA"NVSLN>CLSDFH
THEY'RE SOOO COOOOLLL AND CUTTEEEE UGHHGHGKLJDGHS
fuck. I love them so much, they're just so NOT perfect i love it.
If i have to do a comparison it's like my love for cute animals, oddly similar.
edit : now i get why they're called idols, now i get the whole fucking idol thing, so cooooooll
You probably one of people I say honest moderation side. Good. Keep that way.
i just wanted to say that i really appreciate the work and effort you clearly put into creating this video
it's well made, you presented your thoughts and opinions in a very logical and orderly fashion, and it gave me an opportunity to really take a minute to organise my own thoughts and make sense of my own "flavour" of parasocialism
thanks for the great content, hats down, sir 🙏
It's worse because you're idolizing a character whose performer might not be who you think and are subject to change. Remember Kizuna Ai?
I always have my favorites, but I don't have just one, and mostly just watch clips. Don't have time to watch livestreams nowadays anyway.
Before watching the video: The truth is that we will have always a parasocial relationship with close entertainment like streamers, vtubers, lets player, internet content creators... the key is to be... dunno the right word... consious(?) that its not really something substantial. We can enjoy, feel emotions and develop feelings for who we watch. But we also gotta remember they in 99.99% of cases wont know of us and that's okay. Because... huh... dunno how to put that "because" into words... lets see if you can DN
Great video! Like that you tackle more complicated issues involving vTubing and the community in general.
Musically tying parasocial obsession to cyber psychosis was a top tier move.