“The Case For Colonialism:” What DEI Gets WRONG | Peter Boghossian & Bruce Gilley
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- Опубліковано 1 чер 2024
- Bruce Gilley is a professor of political science at Portland State University. Bruce wrote an article in 2017 for Third World Quarterly titled, “The case for colonialism.” This enraged people who called for him to lose his academic position and be stripped of his PhD. The article was retracted due to credible death threats. In 2023, he published a book by the same name.
Before his academic career, Bruce worked as a journalist in Hong Kong. This experience strongly influenced his views about colonialism. In 2021, we produced a series on my channel called, “Decolonize Explained” where Bruce debunks the myths around colonization.
In this conversation, Bruce and I spoke about the Harvard plagiarism scandal, DEI, and the broader academic landscape. Then, we switched the topic to his book, “The Case For Colonialism.” We discussed the reality of colonialism and what history gets wrong, as well as what may have occurred absent colonialism. The conversation concludes with a discussion about what is next for Bruce’s career.
Guest essay by Bruce on Peter’s Substack: open.substack.com/pub/boghoss...
Bruce’s series on Peter’s channel: • Decolonize Explained w...
Bruce’s research and book, “The Case For Colonialism”: web.pdx.edu/~gilleyb/
Bruce on X: / brucedgilley
Chapters
0:00 Intro
1:25 Harvard plagiarism scandal
15:45 Peter’s DEI prediction & Bruce’s interpretation
26:00 Bruce’s predictions of academic landscape
34:00 Backlash for Bruce’s book
52:30 The Case For Colonialism
1:03:45 Alternative to Colonialism
1:15:20 Why read Bruce’s book
1:19:20 What’s next for Bruce
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#peterboghossian #colonialism #diversityequityinclusion
Hope you enjoyed this video! I did a whole series with Bruce on my channel a few years ago called "Decolonize Explained." After you're done watching this one, catch up on those: ua-cam.com/play/PLYNjnJFU-62s9Bjl6DrQ-1s7yB2UgFFNb.html
This guy is completely naive saying the hard sciences are safe from woke. Where has he been? He’s clueless
And he says things like “over exaggerate” and “very unique” that are things dumb people say
@@ransakreject5221 Hmmm - I fear your critique tells us more about you then it does about him.
Please interview Armin Navabi on the middle east. His podcast is called Atheist Republic.
That perspective on the Belgian Congo is dynamite!
About the hands...I met a man who was once involved as a mercenary in the civil war in Angola. They would come back from night raids with severed ears, and receive a bonus per ear.
Could I suggest that the next time you interview someone. Your preparation and ability to rebut their arguments is based on more than a conversation with your son. Frankly this was embarrassing.
As a Nigerian, my opinion on colonialism will be more nuanced than that of most westerners. On one hand, it was brutal in some ways but on the other it did play a huge role in bringing much of Africa into the modern age via introduction of modern tech, medicine, western education, and nation building.
Also, one major good it did was abolish slavery. I cannot be more thankful for the British using their naval power and economic might to suppress the slave trade in Africa. Oh, I know they partook in it for a time, themselves, but it existed here long before whites ever came to Africa. Even my own ancestors of the Edo kingdom were slavers. What makes the British different is that unlike other regional African and Arab powers, they had the cultural & religious framework, wisdom, humanity and courage to actually stop the evil of slavery even at huge cost to their economy. God bless them.
Don't forget that Africa has tripled its population since the 1950s.
That's hundreds of millions of black lives saved by 'white' science, medicine and charity.
It's refreshing to see a nuanced perspective. Hopefully it's widespread in Nigeria, or at least will become more widespread. Nigeria will become one of the large world economies in the 21st century if it continues on a democratic and liberal path.
growing pains, son.
Wow.. 😮
You’re confused. At its foundation colonialism was a racist enterprise. What gives Europeans the right to take over and control other people and other lands? That’s a rhetorical question. Nothing gave them the right. The argument that “oh Europeans brought material benefits” never considers that colonized people could have gotten those “benefits” of colonialism without colonialism. And just ask the Europeans - would they have been okay to be ruled by Africans or Indians or another people? Of course not. Your apologism for colonialism is a gross.
My daughter got her graduate degree from PSU and although they screwed her on her tuition costs it totally changed her from being a left winger to being more politically central. When she inquired her department head about Peter she was immediately shut down and threatened with expulsion, what a clown show this institution is
PSU is a total sham
Dayum. If that's not evidence how far off track they are, I don't know what is.
Stop making shit up
Add my youngest daughter's alma mater...
Boghossian brought an open pedophile as a guest speaker to campus. He’s hated for good reason.
I'm a university professor (physics) in France. I lived in the US for many years, and I still follow closely what's going on across the pond. I'm a huge fan of you guys, keep on fighting against this appalling rot in your great country. You're doing the right thing.
The rot has started in France and stil permiates all Universities and French society intoxicated with leftists Marxists ideas. USSR was and to lesser exstend still dored by academia. Dont get me started on idiocy of post modernism and celebrity-phylosophers who brought us that ''gift''.
France is in a much dire situation with the great replacement.
“Great replacement”? Is this that the conspiracy theory about races taking over? No more acid for you, Charles Manson.
@@Aeimos there is no such thing as great replacement. You're not having children, and poor countries do. You need the poor countries' youth to do your 'dirty' work, such as restrooms, hotels, and other service jobs.
@@MUSIC-ff9il Yeah, sure, importing millions and millions of people to clean dishes. That makes sense.
I cannot get enough of bright people like Peter and Bruce who have the courage to stand up against this nonsense
They’re standing up against ghosts, man.
@@MoonshineH They arent ghosts, they are perfectly real. Just look at the backlash from the "scientific" community in regards to the grievance studies affair. No one was willing to accept the blame and adjust their course towards an actual scientific approach to research, instead they were just lashing out against the research team labelling them with all kinds of x-ists and x-phobes, as is the common modus operandi amongst cultists.
@@bobdole8830 dog the “grievance studies” (pretentious name btw) were a nothing sandwich. And yes they are in fact ghosts
@@MoonshineH I wish you were right
@@bobdole8830 Well I have good news for you, buddy. Academia has been aware of issues related to peer review for a very long time. Lindsay has a PhD and probably knew that.
Any academic who defends plagiarists should immediately have their work searched for plagiarism.
Their mental gymnastics drive me up the wall. Harvard is almost ranks almost 70 places higher than my university. I have no plans to go back to academia, but in my PhD I checked every single source I used for precisely the reasons they mentioned in this podcast. I read everything. If we didn't have a book I loaned the thing from across the world sometimes for just one quote. For every Greek or Latin source I didn't rely on translations but checked the manuscripts. If I couldn't verify something, I either noted that I couldn't verify it or left it out.
I was not going to recycle any errors made by previous academics.
It infuriates me that the laziness of these posers is rewarded.
@@RedBrigade82 Not neccesarily a Harvard issue. Professors these days wear so many hats, they struggle to actually do their job, they are supposed to kiss asses to ensure research funds, perform a bunch of administrative tasks, do actual research and produce papers and to teach as well as support upcoming PHDs, as well as lower academic grades. When I wrote my Masters thesis my professor was assisting 90 students with their Master thesis at the same time, plus all the things mentioned above. There simply isnt enough time. From fiends of mine that went down the PHD route I actually heard that they were supposed to grade Masters thesis and the prof would just slap their name under it, and since the research assistants are also overworked, there simply isnt enough time to run a 200 page document through a plagiarism software. He told me hed grade as many as three papers per day. You cant work through 300-600 pages of scientific research a day and do it properly, youll skim over it at best. The massive overreliance on economics ruined Academia and it it is only getting worse.
@@bobdole8830 I don't understand your final sentence. Do you mean the school of study or are you trying to say "efficiency'", "productivity" or some synonym like, "economies of scale"?
I am a Latin American from Puerto Rico with mostly Spaniard ancestry. I have zero issues with colonialism. If the Spaniards do not come to Puerto Rico we would have semi-naked indigenous people running around in the mountains. No different than the un-contacted tribes in the Amazon forest.
“We’ve lost our minds” - no truer words have ever been spoken. This was a fascinating discussion as presentism and the stark inability or unwillingness of people to think constructively or dispassionately are key interest points of mine.
And we can look at all of the different actors and point to a wide spectrum of ppl who are involved and participating in this system however the truth that we need to accept is that WOMEN were the catalyst for all of these things. feminism was the catalyst. and this will NOT STOP until men lay down the gauntlet and say NO. It will never stop and I have talked to many women casually and they say it themselves when you ask the right questions, which is that they don't care about outcomes in society. they don't actually care about anything so long as they get equality. in fact they say that they don't even care if a system collapses as long as equality is achieved. And as you see equality isnt even equality. it's just what they want and theyONLY way this will change is if women live in fear of something or feel threatened. right now they are bolstering the government because women's independence in society is predicated on the governmental support, which allows them drift further and further away from being dependent on men in any way. we are chasing our own tails right now the only way to fix this is get women out and forcibly. Because they will never give up the power men have given them--they will never do that or vote for something that is not in their own self interest. they are the majority voters in this country and they will NEVER do any of that .
Thanks for watching!
@@drpeterboghossian I think @rangerrecon is suggesting yours is the mind that lost, unable to think constructively or dispassionately, I think he finds you interesting🤔
@@FartPanther The part about presentism would make no sense if this were true.
@@FartPanther what makes you say this?
So the British conquered Bengal in 1765. In 1770, the great Bengal Famine led to 10 million deaths. The East India Company forced Indian farmers to grow cash crops instead of food. The total number of deaths by famines in British India was 55 million Indians. As soon as India became independent, 0 million died from famines. Amartya Sen got the Nobel Prize in Economics for postulating that famines happen in dictatorships (USSR, China, Cambodia, North Korea, etc) and colonized countries.
His argument about modern education and more equal treatment for lower castes is equally laughable. 17 percent of India had modern education in 1947, after 200 years of British Rule. And caste disrimination was legal during British Rule, but outlawed by independent India. British Rule also enforced Aparthied, where Indians were not allowed into European only hotels, neighbourhoods, clubs, streets, etc.
200 years? When George Everest was the first English guy in central India in 1823. Get your facts straight.
The Indian Population grew constantly between 1600 and 1900. The population grew from 130 million to 400 million. The main engine of population growth is fewer children dying. There is not a single year with a population decline.
Even with 100% of the teachers in England and total control, it would be hard to teach 68,000,000 people, but 17% is 68,000,000 people. Only 42,000 English civilians lived in India. 42,000 people teaching 68,000,000 to read is an amazing number to reach. The average English civilian taught 1,619 Indians to read.
The problem with the anti colonialists is that they equate the first fort with total control.
Indonesia was a Dutch colony for 300 years, but the Dutch controlled less than 3% of the territory for the first 270 years and even when they left there were whole tribes on the main island Java that had never seen a white guy.
Machu Pichu was discovered after 400 years of Spanish control, even though it's just 300 meters from the main road between the capital and the main harbor.
Famines happened on average every 7 years in Europe, at a time Europe wasn't colonized.
I just checked again, the population of Bengal grew by more 10% between 1751 and 1801. That would be pretty impossible with a famine killing 30% of the population. Usually, regions need centuries to recover from famines of that magnitude. Ireland needed 150 years to recover from the potato famine.
You had to inflate the death do to famine and the years England controlled India to make your point. Why do you feel the need to lie if your point is irrefutable? If England was that bad, the facts should be enough to discredit England.
I did the math for Congo a few weeks ago. And you could not reach the numbers of claimed death people even when I added the 30% natural child mortality into the numbers of people killed by Leopold II. I could not reach the claimed numbers, even when you included every person and baby that died in Congo during Leopold's rule.
The 30% natural child mortality are the numbers I toke from modernized Belgium at the same time.
@@motionpictures6629 , i beleive your liar comment is classical projection. You think everyone else is like you. Please reas the Wikipedia link on the Bengal Famine - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Bengal_famine_of_1770
@@motionpictures6629 , India rulers in the 18th century used construction based employment to neutralize the starvation caused by famines. Unlike the British in Bengal. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bara_Imambara
I don’t usually read political history or similar, but based on this conversation I’m adding The Case for Colonialism to my reading list.
Great conversation.
I read it a couple of months ago.
There's a wide belief that King Leopold killed millions in the Congo, and amputated the limbs of Africans, and lots of supporting pictures.
SJW tosser Ben Affleck plans to make a film about it, so we can expect that fairly soon everyone will believe it.
When I first saw the accusation, I was shocked, and have read about a dozen books about the area since then. There are very specific bits of evidence that irrefutably show those claims as false. I was delighted when I read the book, because Gilley produced those exact same bits of evidence.
It's unfortunate that the truth will never be as well known as the lie.
I read his original paper "A Case for Colonialism"a couple of years ago.Exellent work.Very well researched,listing all his origins of information.He writes nothing without leaving us the source reference.
Great work!
Fantastic conversation! Dr. Gilley, please continue your work. It is so important!
Another angle? Every dissertation has a chair. They read everything. Put their careers at risk for any dissertation they pass with plagiarism and watch how fast the plagiarism shrinks.
Absolutelylove Pete Boghossian just breaking out in hillarious laughter. Keep the spirit high, Peter. Cheers.
OMG, I feel robbed that I did not know who Bruce Gilley is before now. He is an ABSOLUTE SAVAGE; it's like watching Bambi vs. Godzilla for the first time. So refreshing and UNAPOLOGETIC! just ordered a hard copy from Amazon. Only thing to make this podcast better would have been interspersing the NPR Kazoo and a pretentious "femsplain" intro.
He was on Triggernometry way back as well great interview.
@@svenhaheim I'm gonna have to watch those today. Thanks for the heads up.
He's on Douglas Murray's Uncancelled History series as well.
so you heard a guy harp on about a narrative you find appealing - contradicting, as it does, the well established historical paradigm - and so you thought he must be right.
Did it occur to you that he might just be engaging in apologetics - the result of White fragility refusing to acknowledge the very obvious immoral acts of European colonialism over the last 400 years or so?
"I just ordered a hard copy"
Really? You would have been better off ordering BDSM porn.
I found this interview w/ Bruce Gillies extremely informative. Thank you yo both.
Bruce I'm from Australia, but concerning your future w/PSU i would strongly encourage you to take all your teaching knowledge & make your own tutorials available to people on the net, especially for millenials & gen-Zs. (I don't know if you are already doing this). I encourage you in your future endeavours - I'm sure they will be for bringing out the truth, which is vitally essential.
May 2024 be profitable & protective for you both.
🇦🇺🦘❤️🙏🕊️🇮🇱👍💯
The very idea that people who are supposed to be authorities in higher learning trying their best to find some sort of loophole to ruin someone over their research is absolutely wild. This has been very illuminating and I’m glad to have found this video.
Loved his optimism that this insanity is reaching its peak, and will begin to correct… I really hope he’s right.
Wow - What a great guest! I'm loving his 'based' takes on the craziness going on now.
Great interview! I love these discussions "reconstructing" deconstructed history. Will definitely pick up the book. The VOC was another entity that was often labeled as inherently "evil" by revisionist historians.
What is the VOC? A Dutch colonial enterprise?
@@busterbiloxi3833 volatile organic compounds, most likely
Yes, imagine a trading company with its own soldiers. Your company has a monopoly on all imports and exports to a particular country. How lucrative could that be? And this company was the world's first corporation, meaning that you could buy stock in them. @@busterbiloxi3833
This was such a fun and engaging conversation, thank you for this! I just ordered the book. Love your street epistemology series too (really funny). Another win for the exchange of ideas and broadening one's perspective.
You’ve got a great laugh Peter. Love that you’re having the conversations you want to be having. 8:55
I understand why some people dislike Gilley:
He has a sense of humour. And it's almost like he is a real, actual person.
A lot of people these days seem to ''construct'' themselves entirely in terms of what they *want* other people to think about them.
A sense of humour protects us from the barbs of others, allowing us to sit aloof somewhat, and consider what it means. Wokeys lack this, and take *everything* literally.
The Berlin conference was literally a meeting between European nations to establish colonialism, I'm from South Africa we literally had 15 plus wars against the colonisers , you were not welcome
And never will - and if there are those who think colonialism is good then let us colonize them - since they love it so much
@@Maruwasa Africans tried to colonize Europe for about 1500 years.
Untrue. The berlin conference all but mandated that nations sign treaties to gain control. South Africa was rare because there were already dutch people there. Yes there were the zulu but a good portion of the fighting was Britain vs already established colonials.
@@Maruwasa PERIODT !!!
Sorry little brother...land belongs to the people/tribes strong enough to take it and defend it. Stronger armies came in and took your resources from you...just like African tribes had done to each other for hundreds of thousands of years.
If you don't want to be conquered, make sure you have a strong army or at least strong allies.
It was the British that stopped the savage practice of Sati in India.
All wrong. There were social reformers like Raja Rammohan Roy and others who spearheaded movement to stop the practice in India. Britishers demolished India to no end killing millions of people and looting its resources pushing India to extreme poverty.
It would be great to get Nigel Biggar on here on this same topic.
I’ve read this guys book and it is brilliant.
New facts, presented openly, in brilliant context.
Strongly recommend.
Wow. What a perspective. This is good.
Thank you!
A fascinating, thought-provoking conversation. And an enviable living room!
Love Bruce Gilley.
He is great!
yyy😢
Really appreciate brave and real academics who give us the correct understanding of popular and controversial concepts.
Wait long enough and you will get "The case for slavery" and "The case for holocaust" as well. I get that DEI is stupid but this is tragic overcorrection by trying to defend the indefensible
Kind of feels that way.
I've read Gilley's books and found them very interesting and thoughtful. I am also a PSU graduate in history. I'm constantly embarrassed to say that PSU is my alma mater as it only reflects poorly on me that I attended the best fourth class Maoist university in Portland.
It's a pity they sacked Claudine as the guy's said. Imagine the damage she could have done in the next decade. I would have liked to see what happened once Harvard reached the Khmer Rouge stage.
Why would you want it to get to that stage?
@@maureensansburn6413 Nothing in the comment suggests they WANT it to get to the that stage, it was an observation that, if left unchecked, that would be the natural outcome. Descriptive vs. prescriptive.
@@regpharvey "its a pity" "I would have liked to see" yeah for sure.
@@christianfoley7441"Imagine the damage", "Khmer Rouge". Are you serious? You cannot infer sentiment from half a paragraph without cherry picking words?
Oh, come on. That’s bombastic. The Zionist billionaire class joined forces with MAGA racists to oust her.
Peter is conducting some of the most worthwhile interviews in this sphere. Well done Sir!
I have subscribed to this channel, and have just purchased Dr Gilley's book, online. I'm currently reading Professor Bigger's book, which will help inform my understanding of Dr Gilley's thesis. I have degrees in anthropology, English literature, philosophy and as of late last year a graduate diploma in analytical psychotherapy. So I am informed, and I have recently retired. Here in Australia, we had a referendum last year to change the constitution: effectively adding a further chapter to it. In essence, it was a debate about the colonial history of the founding of the country, and the effect that this historical event had ( and still has) on the Aboriginal community, diverse as that group, is. Of course, this was also a debate relating to the enshrining of an Aboriginal Voice into the constitution with wide-ranging powers which no government in Australia ( Federal, State and, yes, even Local ) had any clear idea regarding these powers, its application, or, long-term results. There was vigorous debate throughout the campaign on both sides: however, the final verdict was a strong rejection of the YES case; the final vote was 39% for the Yes, and 61% against. The issues regarding the result in Australia were addressed by Dr Gilley in this conversation; people of goodwill, informed of the issues through common debate, will reject a campaign that treats the living as fools and assesses their understanding as "racist" if it doesn't follow a proscribed electoral/historical narrative. I voted, NO.
* Prof. Biggar
The people spoke 👌🤧
Bruce Gilley has some very important inconvenient truths to tell. Listen to him.
“Living on earth is truly a misery. The more a man desires spiritual life, the more bitter the present becomes to him, because he understands better and sees more clearly the defects, the corruption of human nature“. Thomas á Kempis
Unless you are a Christian, then it becomes another example of the truth of God's word.
@@reasonwarrior
Yes!
Another wonderful conversation keep up the good work. I am looking into acquiring a copy of the book right now.
Thank you!
I started watching this vid to learn about the case for colonialism, yet for 34 minutes i heard about how present day universities work and how plagerism is rampant and even acceptable. It was due to my morbid curiosity that i stuck through the chatter about moden day higher education to determine how much of the viewer's time would be wasted in listening to a subject that was not in the title. It amazes me how those two brilliant accedemics were unable to keep to the subject. One thing i discovered in my 5.5 years of university was that many of my brilliant professors lacked simple everyday common sense which seems to be illustrated in this presentation.
Why oh why wasn't this vid cut into 2 separate vids with 2 different subject lines???
That’s why I loved my biomedical science major. No one had time to teach us woke DEI nonsense, they’re trying to teach us how to describe the chorale of a molecule in organic chemistry or how to derive the position equation from the velocity equation in calculus-based physics.
He cites the “things around the periphery” in college as being the valuable product of the enterprise. Pool passes? Flights? Bake sales?
Never has a more compelling case for NOT going to college been made.
Connections.
Very good comment. One of the enduring lies about university and a reason why non university types are not fooled. We all grow between 18 _ 25 in whichever way. AS FOR connections and networking that works for the privileged who meet sons and daughters and parents of the privileged and learn more re socialisation and how things work so yes it works for them people
@@GodwynDi The connections are useful if THEY succeed.
@@digitalnomad9985 Yeah, but places like Harvard are full of people who will succeed, whether they behave any talent or not.
I mean, depends what you want to study. Rejecting university education wholesale is just as stupid. There are many subjects you can’t just learn on the job. I don’t want my surgeon or lawyer to be winging it, I want to know they have a minimum standard of knowledge. Are you saying PhDs in biochemistry are useless?
Bruce is great and so is Peter!
Colonialism is like an abusive marriage first it was all rosey and romantic but then the first time he hit you reality begins to settle, he’s no different than the enemy kingdom/clan you joined forces to defeat and only now you realize you don’t have anyone to call on for resistance.if colonialism was so good why was there so many rebellions
Just came across this. Interesting. A few thoughts. 1) They can’t seem to focus very well and appear to be primarily interested in using gross over exaggerations and logical fallacies to beat the so called “DEI” people over the head. This is not by any means a monolithic group. 2) The title of his book clearly suggests he is advocating colonialism because he has found examples of positive outcomes. Granted. But were any of these people receiving the blessings asked if they wanted it? And his downplaying of the savagery and his many factual errors is rather stunning. 3) His argument seems a second cousin to “slavery wasn’t that bad” nonsense now circulating in Christian Nationalist circles. 4) My first impression - and I may be wrong - is that he seems an academic lightweight. Should he be censored or threatened or harassed because of that? Of course not. The reaction to this is absurd and damaging to academic freedom and health. The ultra-woke are a pain in the ass. I guess the only remaining question is what percentage is he full of shit. 80? 40? 35? I won’t be bothering to find out because the whole thing is so amazingly a-historical and juvenile. Nobody seems to be able to hold nuance and contradictory things in their head and still have some moral balance. This guy clearly likes the attention, and I always mistrust that.
✅
I think his facts are sound but his framing is just as bad aa the anti colonialism he opposes. Karl Marx had colonialism just about right - it was often better than what came before, but was a missed opportunity as well - all at the expense of the working class back at the seat of empire. They paid the cost while the rich looted the colonies at.
Please interview Armin Navabi about the
His podcast is called Atheist Republic.
Bruce is correct about technical universities. I worked at a small technical university for four years and never saw any activism. Students were way too busy trying to get through their mountains of homework. My student workers were always moaning and groaning about the amount of work, projects, and exams they had to do. I was lucky to get a few hours a week from each of them.
- well, I'm from a communist country of eastern-Europe
- during university years - even if I was theoretical math student - we had to take "scientific socialism" (this is a literal translation, sometimes it was also referred to as Marxism-Leninism) classes
- w/ it came the reading of Lenin, Marx, Engels...
- what stunned me in Lenin's was that literally 90% was quotations and some words, like "you see?!" Not even some analysis or something
- it was not plagiarism per se, but illustrates the point of "repeating the party line" (even at highest level)...
Which of Lenin’s works? I’ve only read State and Revolution.
What I love most about this conversation is that, in the portion around the 25 minute mark, Bruce Gilley, who has been on the receiving end of some of the worst that awokened have to offer, still pushes back against the temptation to hopelessness and to utterly dismissing the value of higher education, even under the [resent circumstances.
So glad to finally hear rebutal to the anti-colonialism idealogy! Thank you!
One of the most eye opening incidents I learned about colonialism was how many mezo-American tribes and peoples WILLINGLY joined Cortez in overthrowing the Aztecs.
Why? Because they were tired of their people being carried off and sacrificed by Aztecs.
Yes. The story is much more complicated
Helping them out does not give you the liberty to wipe out their culture in the ensuing decades & centuries.
@@zzzzz653their culture of chopping people's heads off is persistent. And we have tacos. What is it you think is lost?
Wonderful conversation! The way you can laugh at the absurdities is hilarious, even though the situation is so serious! The tide is turning, I think . . .
Why did it happen in the us? Is it because it is the most powerful jurisdiction and to rule the world you have to rule the us and to rule the us you have to be elected and to be elected or to do a coup, you have to allow a lot of cheating or undermining and to do that you need many to not engage and many to think crazy stuff is good?
Great conversation. Loved this. Now have facts that I always knew, through logic, to probably be the accurate stories. Thanks, again!
I tried google what they mentioned at 9:58, the Black Student Union at Princeton protesting against the code of conduct, can anyone provide a link please.
After ending my career in teaching in the UK i have now settled in a former British colony in Asia. I was surprised to discover how much good will still exists towards the British here. I have never experienced hostility whenever i have disclosed my nationality. On the contrary, i meet with virtually universal warmth and affection for what the British did here. Yes, i know… hard to believe isn’t it?
Civilized people do that rather than judge you based on something you cannot change. Like Race/skin colour or just being a Brit ;) Europeans are still primitive
Why hard to believe?? Educating, building infrastructure and systems of law and governance is no small contribution
@@leahsiegel9068 Because if you live in the West, you are continually told in the media and academy that colonialism was 100% bad and that the Brits did nothing but steal, plunder, rape and pillage. The real picture is (like most things) much more nuanced. Full credit to Bruce Gilley for moving the debate
As people in the Global South have mentioned, attitudes towards the legacy of colonialism depend on the historical track record.
The Vietnamese, with the exception of a limited minority of beneficiaries, almost certainly have little goodwill towards French colonailism. 😁😁
Meanwhile, the people of SEA certainly did not think the wrong enemy was defeated in 1945.
Malaysia ?
Like nearly every other human endeavor, colonialism produced both positive and negative outcomes. I am not smart enough on the issue know whether the experience in the Belgian Congo was as positive as Gilley posits (I read King Leopold's Ghost many years ago), but regardless of whether it was or not the institution itself was far more complex and nuanced than we're often allowed to say.
The uncontrolled colonialization of Europe by the Arab world or the colonization of the USA by Hispanics has not been a win-win for all the sides involved.
If Black people colonized a White country, would you still have doubts? Or would that not be a good thing?
@@AndyFromBeaverton The West definitely needs far stricter immigration controls than it's had so far (unless it wants to be swamped).
The US and Europe are getting cheap labour while the migrants are getting a better life. I would call this migration a 'force for good', too. You're quite a hypocrite.
Gilley argues that the history of the Congo can be divided into two distinct periods. The first (from roughly 1880-1908) was when the area was a private piece of land owned by King Leopold. Then in 1908, the Belgian government removed the territory from King Leopold's direct ownership and turned it into a territory administered by the Belgian government (1908 to roughly 1960). Gilley contends (controversially in my view) that the first period should not be considered colonialism because the Belgian government did not exercise any power over the territory and his definition of colonialism excludes the ownership/control of territories far from the metropole if the government of the metropole does not have such ownership or control, including when such owner/controller is a foreign person.
Accordingly, in Gilley's view, since the atrocities that took place in the Congo took place in the first period, when the Congo was not a colony, the evils of that period cannot be attributed to colonialism and, further, Belgian colonial rule in the second period helped to end the abuses of power that characterized the first period, meaning that colonialism actually helped save the Congolese from the excesses of non-colonial European overlordship.
This argument strikes me as redefining terms for the sake of making an argument rather than an honest discussion of how European power in Africa was expressed, but that's Gilley's argument.
during Leopold's rule and its immediate aftermath, Congo's population may have been slashed by as many as 10 million people. Life for Congo's inhabitants continues with only minimal improvements.
The Trans Atlantic Slave Trade had prior to Leopold’s occupation depopulated the region immensely straining local society and causing power vacuums that erupted into internal strife.
The Congo has never recovered and remains an extractivist economy benefiting Europe and America and increasingly over decades, China.
These men literally proving the need for sociology and humanities education. D EI training is for HR departments. These men in are over their heads and need to read outside the lily white authorship they obviously swim in.
Huh
But we it have been better if no interaction? Maybe? State your case
That was a very interesting conversation. Bruce comes across as very entertaining and likeable academic. I shall now go order his book.
It is probative to differentiate between "Colonialism'" in which the senior country has extra-territoriality, and " Imperialism" which does not.
I don't know if I agree that you get all these wonderful social learnings with friends at college and that constitutes the "maturation process." I rode the bus to campus and lived way off campus in an apartment with a girlfriend who was 10 years older than I. THAT was a maturation process~! The academic maturation process for me was being forced to learn HOW to write (history major) through having to write and having to read histories and then to attempt to approximate these authors' ways of meaning-making that they demonstrated in their texts. Certainly NOT by plagiarizing! The other maturation process was getting lost in the university library and reading whatever caught my interest. I sure as hell didn't get to know too many other people. The "studies" courses I had to take (this was early 1990s) had profs and lecturers who couldn't even spell properly -THAT I do remember.
The Congo discussion is illuminating. I think what the critiques of colonialism and imperialism seem to assume as their unstated priors is that colonialism was - as an enterprise - united, monolithic, led by the musket or gunboat, intentional, ineluctable, and aimed primarily to subjugate and oppress. This is demonstrably untrue. My country was colonized in the mid-19th C over the strenuous objections of the Exchequer bc it wouldn't make money. The Admiralty was reluctantly for it bc there was one next door. And some property speculators in London thought it was a good idea. This was not rational or even malicious planning, it was strategic drift, muddle, and incompetence. Colonies near and far were mostly established in a way that was gradual, incremental, dependent on local governance, negotiated, with shrewd calculations of return (a) trade, b) protect warships), and primarily interested in creating the conditions and institutions for economic opportunity.
The most fascinating - to me - aspect of the British Raj in India was how shallow the intrusion was into governance and society (local economic monopolies and vertical integration were broken up, however). And then there's timing. Why did Britain give back the East Indies and Philippines to the former powers after the Napoleonic Wars and settlement of 1814? Not worth it. How about the limited British gains during the "scramble for Africa"? Not worth it. What about the desultory occupation of Qing China? Too hard. Not worth it. This suggests that the portrayal of colonialism as being akin to massed ranks of pith helmets, Dreadnoughts, and maxim guns itching to establish totalitarian control over foreign territory is an ahistorical delusion. Humanity had not seen totalitarian power and techne until the 1930s, so to project that back into the colonial period is flat out wrong.
Love this guy! This is what speaking truth to power looks like.
Did any of these people who objected to his work even read anything past the title?
You don’t have to. If someone is “anti-woke” that’s all you need to know.
Of course nit
I had always heard millions of people died in the Congo free state. I'm very relieved to learn that wasn't the case. I am glad Bruce is getting the truth out there.
As an academic, historian, I've read Dr. Gilley's work, it's sane and balanced, The first part of this conversation is a spot on discussion of the state of the humanities (aside - avoid studies programs like the plague) in higher education. And Dr. Gilley's work on colonialism is a necessary revision of the anti/post colonial narrative. Though I am more conservative than either Dr. Boghossian or Dr. Gilley, I admire their work and attitude toward true academic freedom and the academic endeavor, they are fighting the good fight and consider them as friends and allies.
Great conversation - thank you.
Thank you. My brother in law came back from studying at Penn and I was extremely alarmed with his sudden affinity to Marxism . I was trying to make a point that geo political Marxism makes no sense like you can’t promote ideologies of the likes of Iran to be equal voices in the UN just to “include them”. No there is natural selection of ideas, some just suck and are barbaric. He replied “no I think Marxism has some good things going for it”… this guy was previously pretty normal. But he’s been brainwashed at penn :(
Marxism DOES HAVE GOOD IDEAS, in a framework of fraud.
Opposition to slavery, combined with opposing "Bourgeois" individual rights, meant opposition to _private_ slavery and all private property, but defense of one of the most massive _public_ govt-run slave labor economies in modern times, if not in all human history.
Want to protest a mandatory 7-day work week? Off to spend 5-10 years in a frozen slave labor camp doing primitive mining or cutting down trees, in minus 50 temperatures, with barely enough "literally garbage" to eat to stay alive. That's why many died. Violent criminals in charge, so women could be graped with impunity.
Decide to take a few months off work for health or to launch a side gig? Off to the Gulag camp for treason, because not working your butt off is counter-revolutionary activity aka treason.
Create "sad" art and music, instead of upbeat patriotic art and music?
Counter-revolutionary Treason.
Criticize the leaders or party or some policy?
Treason.
Plus, Lysenkoism was forced reliance on nonsense pseudoscience based on Marx's ”scientific socialism". It was a factor in mass starvation of millions, but scientists were forbidden to speak out. Some scientists were jailed or killed for criticizing Lysenko after Lysenko praised Stalin.
Does he literally study Karl Marx and refer to himself as a Marxist?
And also, do you think the Iranian regime are Marxists?
I’m just wondering if you know what it actually means?
Maybe I’ve read you wrong.
I mean, Marx was just completely right about capitalism.
@ordro107 - I believe that you are using "Marxism" as a stand-in for "Wokeism" or some variant thereof. Marxist philosophy is primarily a critique of capitalism and/or advocacy for community responses to the inequalities of capitalism (like communism). It has nothing to do with inclusivity or diversity, taken to its illogical extreme, which is "Wokeism" and what you appear to be bothered by.
British colonialism pulled the world out of the Dark Ages, especially the Protestant intellectual work ethic, not so much the Spanish Catholic guilt and shame cult... English colonialism brought to all its colonies, education, legal systems, reasonable government structure, human rights and value, viable economic system and resource management, and intellectual enlightenment... whereas, Spanish conquerors along with their Catholic clergy toadies, brought brutality, plunder, persecution, and despair, still apparent in South and Central America with their perpetual revolutions, third world poverty, and economic turmoil... Yeah... there were bad things in the British system, especially slavery, but most of that has been rectified and the world is a better place.
Native north American people might disagree
and, because we are a free nation they have that right without repercussion.@@janinegriffiths8281
@@janinegriffiths8281 Well, objectively, the indigenous people of North America could have benefited from colonialism and initially did as they could trade in firearms, spices, etc. However, as the colony declared independence from the colonizing British Government to form the United States, the new government essentially eradicated the indigenous population as invaders have done in so many other countries - whether they were colonizing or not.
@@janinegriffiths8281it's easy to disagree when you don't have to deal with the consequences of the alternative. Life in North America was brutal
@@rangerrecon except the Europeans were colonizing North America. And I do love in the USA. Perhaps those people didn't want firearms or spices. They were doing very well before Europeans decided they wanted the land and resources so since the Native Americans didn't want to give it all away or toe the European line, they found ways to get rid of the indigenous peoples, you know infected blankets, just out right killing and raping. Yeah we really brought them us to "our level". Not everyone wants other people's stuff.
Oh this...this is terrifying and exciting. Let's go!
Hope you enjoy it
Peter, great interview of Bruce, an important scholar of whom I confess I was not aware. Haven't read his book yet, but am anxious to after this episode.
Bruce, it occurs to me that one of the underlying Foundation's of this anticolonialism morass is the Left's obsession with multiculturalism, and it's refusal to accept that all cultures are not equal in value to one another. Woke academics cannot explain the superiority of Western culture's technology, art, economics, and scientific exploration over the cultures which they colonized without resorting to accusations of forceful invasion and domination by the European colonizers. Your ideas as presented in this compelling interview go far in explaining the obvious validity of your thesis. I look forward to reading your book, sir.
31:10 Peter 'when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail'
😂😂😂
This is ace man. I love Peter's laugh too 😂
Thank you for this very interesting conversation gentlemen. I have just purchased Professor Gilley's book 'The Case for Colonalism' on Amazon as a result of what I heard here and I look forward to reading it this week.
book ordered ! wonderful chat, thank you
Colonialism is the history of the world, and there are both negative historical ramifications as well as positive aspects, depending on who did the colonizing. The reason why the negatives of European colonizing is endlessly harped on, is due solely to the progressive woke ideology which depends heavily on instilling a deep resentment and hatred in its adherents towards European “white” people (they don’t seem to care about historical events in which POC’s colonized Europeans - the intellectual & moral dishonesty is clear). This resentment is so foundational to the progressive mindset that historical events must be cherry-picked in order to highlight the negatives and suppress the positives. Without this kind of ideologically-selective historical knowledge, there would be insufficient levels of resentment to carry on the woke project. This is why factual counter-narratives are so hated by woke adherents, as is free speech, and a diversity of viewpoints.
Which “POC’s colonised Europeans”? Interested to know. The Moors?
I don't think it's so much as they don't care rather that they don't know about the crimes of so called POC. Myself, I didn't know about the horrific siege of Bagdad until just a few years ago. I'm 67. The SOB of 1258 wasn't the handiwork of the Crusaders but rather the Mongols under the command of Prince Hulegu, a grandson of Genghis Khan. This is just one example.
Also being left-wing in one's politics and critical of certain aspects of the West does not have to translate into hatred of all of Western Culture.
I find it so funny how many of them wear a uniform so you can spot them from a distance
No they arent thinking critically... CRT BLOCKS critcial thinking..Full Stop! it's that simple!
1:06:08 In summer of 2017, my wife and I visited Disneyland Hong Kong. While in line at the Jungle River Cruise, surrounded by queue decorations meant to invoke a colonial beachhead (pith helmets, gas lanterns, wooden crates, etc) , I remarked aloud about the irony of a colonial-themed ride in a city whose colonial rulers had returned the city to home rule. In front of me in line were a Briti and his Hong Kongese wife, who quickly set me straight. Better London than Beijing.
After the American revolution, the Brits took the astonishing path of *preparing* their colonies for self rule.
I ran into a Chinese-run souvenir kiosk in New York where they were selling sew-on flags of the type you see on back-packs of young travelers. I came across one of the flag of British Hong Kong. I pointed it out to the owner. He looked at it and said, "Maybe it better than now."
@@Sergeant_Fury In my experience, when Chinese speakers say: "Maybe" it's their way of softening the irrefutable.
Thanks for a great discussion.
Am ordering the book! Thanks so much of a fascinating discussion!
one thing I dont hear much talked about is how AI will play into how we get our information. With bing adding chatGpt to its search, people will stop looking for information from many sources, and they will be led to trust the machine instead. The machine as we know is not just based on ML, but rather also by the rules of the author. Theres a reason why the chatGpt is all about DEI and that narrative, and tries to be as non offensive to the point of being destructive. Imagine kids being exposed to this in school, and as they grow up they are led to not look at answers from anywhere else other than from the machine.
Try asking ChatGpt about the Muslim and Ejwish Prophets owning slaves - it bends over backwards to be non offensive, sometimes ending the conversation completely. Then ask it about Europeans owning slaves - it won't shut up.
Gilley has a fair point at 30 mins about the new gen having a different experience with plagiarism, with easy word processors and now AI. Even in different faculties it can be viewed differently, when I studied engineering in the 1980s, most students collaborated on doing problem sets, you more or less had to, the sheer amount of work doing problems and math and physics difficultly were mind-boggling. Problem sets were obligatory, you had to hand them in, and I would say most of the work by every student contained some 'collaborative' input. However, the marks assigned to the sets were low, and the final grade was mostly made by two major tests, that really IDd who knew it and who didnt, and that was what made the grade. You couldn't hide in the testing. Also, cheating in tests were extremely frowned upon, and strictly enforced.
STEM was hard as hell. grad. 1978. You basically minor in math by default...like it or not.
@@curtisvalle5141 Yes absolutely, I did Mechanical Engineering and yes you effectively do a minor in math.
Don't be so confident that things will self correct. One of the primary mechanics for self correction is respect for the truth and protection of free speech. Without those things, noone can say the emperor has no clothes.
Thank you Bruce Gilley for this in depth and more nuanced explanation to go against the Woke narrative...
Socialism is bad, Fascism is bad, but Colonialism is not bad? What a Channel ....
Not what is being said maybe watch it again with out any preconception's .
Those people who are impressed by this should at least spend time researching the case of King Leopold II, who Gilley defends, in order to determine if Gilley's research on this particular topic is credible. If it's not, then one might consider it possible that he is not entirely credible when it comes to his defense of colonialism in general. I would like to know his thoughts on Neo-colonialism.
Congolese tribes were hired to capture other Congolese tribes, this is a known fact. Also Leopold's rule of Congo was short, as soon as his atrocities were found out, the Belgian parliament took over and started to develop and improve the lives of the natives who were running around naked in the jungle and dying of diseases. Belgians opened schools, hospitals, gave out free vaccines, started institutions to study the natives' history and languages and preserve it. By the 50s, they started to put out anti-segregation laws and were rolling out full rights for the natives until the race grifters pushed for independence and turned Congo into the poorest most unstable country in the world. your lucky your ancestors were plucked out of Africa or you'd be drinking brown water like them you snobby fck
Ordering the book. He’s an amazing scholar.
The fact that 2nd rate universities are getting better students and that at least parts of Portland's wealth and culture and productivity moves elsewhere instead of being obliterated is fortuitous, rather than an obligate conclusion of wokism.
Every time this happens, some things will necessarily be lost forever, and time, effort, resources will be destroyed, even if we get lucky.
Peter, do you think the outcome of Gilley's book would have been different if it were titled, "The Question of Colonialism," without changing the content of the book, or am I fully missing the point? BTW, thank you for for defending differences of educated opinions.
"Colonialism: A Moral Reckoning" caught some flack but didn't get quite the uproar that "The case for Colonialism" did. Titles are important
@@CC-ps7ct100% because we know they wont read it
What a truly bizarre argument. Yes, in essence, he says, when rubber quotas were not met, there were some massacres, there was some chopping off of hands - but not nearly as much chopping off of hands as you might expect. It really makes you wonder how much hand chopping off is an acceptable amount of hand chopping off.
I was wrong about you Peter; after all you have a " heart of darkness".
Any word on whether or not Gilley’s book will be available in audio format? I like to switch back and forth and really want to get my hands on this one.
Gilley's interview with Douglas Murray was equally fascinating.
Worth checking out.
I find DM to be pompous, self righteous and completely conflict oriented.
Just my 10 pence
Searching now for it.
@@johnkrstyen7351 @johnkrstyen7351 The series is called: Uncanceled History with Douglas Murray (Ep 2) Colonialism.
They go over the same material but I enjoyed the exchange nonetheless.
On india he is so off with facts. India would have managed even if europeans did not arrive. Actually india at that time was was being controlled in many areas by maratha and sikh empire which were fighting mughals and were on the cusp of taking over. The guy forgets india was a relatively prosperous nation. For last 2000 years india and china were the largest economies. And when british arrived we had close to 18% share in global trade. Whem ghey left india had 1% and poverty rates of 80%
Exactly his India argument was ridiculous
Very enlightening discussion. Thank u both.
Thank you
Great interview, really important insights here.
thank you for this has set me on a path of discovery the general narrative around colonialism is nothing but hate and shame its nice to have a direction to enlighten myself on it
The real test is reciprocity. If you think it's perfectly fine if your country got colonised, then it should be ok. After all, if China colonised your country, I'm sure it would benefit Britons in some way. Would you still support the idea of colonialism?
i dont think you watched the same video i wasnt referencing colinizing i was reference the fact that they were essentialy mobile traders the community tended to form around them as the protection from being close to their trading post do you not think thats of benefit when your land is constantly fought over by remnents of lost empires have you ever looked at the history of india? it was pretty much constant land swaps an war! also i think chinas abit off from taking anyone over when their average salery is £6k a year@@nishadass6960
@@nishadass6960THIS. This person heard ONE guy downplay the negative effects of colonialism and takes it for gospel. He doesn't want to engage with actual inquiry, he just wants to hear something he probably he was probably already partial to believing.
Ironic that he talks about intellectual laziness and then spouts the same tired old shite about Marxists and communists.
Thank you very much...
This is why Kongo asked Belgium for help décades ago after gaining independence. I never understood the reason behind it.
I am professor that teaches theoretical psychology, philosophy of psychology, and neuropsychology.
Thank you Peter for your willingness to appose the Marxist Ideology that is permeating throughout universities in the US. You and Dr. Gilley are inspiring and motivate me to maintain my stance against Marxism narratives in academia.
Peter, as a Hispanic writer and professor, I see how Marxism and Socialism influences Hispanic communities often. Without Colonial influence in the US, my parents would have never immigrated to the US. Poverty was seen through the optics when I was growing up as an opportunity to improve my life. I slept on the floor of a trailer for most of my childhood. I am fortunate that my teachers around me were not Marxists. Poverty and my race were never associated with “oppression”. My teachers challenged me and supported my learning. Hispanics are taught today to focus on false binaries: oppression vs oppressors.
Colonial and meritocratic ideologies gave me a chance to improve my well-being.
Thank you Dr. Peter and Dr. Bruce for the insightful discussion.
You must be in the cross-hairs, as well, Professor.
It’s a conspiracy theory, homie.
Marxism doesn’t talk much about “oppressers” , not as much as religion, nationalism or literature, and it is not straight up anti colonialist either, often defending it. Can you apply your academic expertise to getting the basics of marxism correct?
It's so hard being a -liberal- FAR RIGHT person today.
I just ordered the book on Amazon. Thanks for sharing the knowledge.
Very intelligent conversation Peter thank you. I think you may have become my favorite Channel.
Glad you enjoyed it!