Zoning System for Infinity, Evolution, and Ion Controls
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- Опубліковано 16 жов 2024
- The Bryant Evolution, Carrier Infinity, and ICP Ion controls are compatible with an advanced zoning system that includes unique features like modulating dampers, direct control of the variable speed fan, and no bypass.
Appreciate your video! I couldn't get my zones to work, all the dampers were in the open position and one end of our house was way hotter than the other. Your walk thru on the user interface helped me get all dialed in. I think I had all my scheduled fan settings to auto. When I changed everything back to low it worked like a champ!
Thanks, ryan the way you explained it with your 3 fingers is textbook low voltage talk. thank you!
FYI
If you have a 1st, 2nd and 3rd floor and the main control is on the 2nd floor it can not be zone 2 to try and correlate with the floor it is on. The main control can only be set as zone 1 and then re name to whatever’s out want.
Made me crazy until figured it out. Otherwise this is a fantastic zoning system.
That is true... the main stat can only be associated with zone #1. However, you can re-name the zones to whatever you want so you can call them basement, 1st floor, and 2nd floor.
I'm currently working on switching our Infinity system from a single zone to a three zone system and this video is almost exactly what I was looking for, thanks much! One question, everything seems fairly clear but I'm fuzzy on how the thermostat and damper control board connect to the actual furnace. No manuals I've found seem to cover that. From what I've gathered so far based on the damper control board wiring, the zone 1 thermostat is wired to the left hand ABCD connection on the top of the zone control board and the furnace ABCD is now connected to the RH ABCD on the zone board. So it's thermostat -> zone control board -> furnace -> hvac unit, meaning the zone control board is essentially placed in between the thermostat and furnace connection. Ours is a gas furnace with an outdoor hvac unit, models 59TN6A and 24ANB6 respectively.
Thanks for any help, and keep up the great work.
All of the devices communicate on the ABCD terminals. It does not matter the order that you daisy chain the devices. It also does not matter which ABCD terminal on the zone board is used for what.
Can you help. I wired this up with the Honeywell remote sensor. But I am receiving a communication troubleshooting code on the board and it is not recognizing the 2nd zone with that is the Honeywell remote sensor configuration.
I currently have my smallest zone saying it’s ZONE AIRFLOW LIMITED STAGE DOWN OCCURRED. What’s the best option to get around this with out upsizing the duct work?
That usually means your smallest zone is smaller than the required minimum airflow of either the furnace or the A/C. For example that zone can only move 300 CFM, but the furnace needs at least 400 CFM to stay online. This usually occurs when the zone system is designed incorrectly with what we call "micro-zones" or the equipment is too large and needs to be a couple sizes smaller.
I am having this 4 zone system installed soon. I read that you should not use a bypass damper. I have one for a humidifier. Will this cause any issues?
You cannot use a "zoning bypass damper" with this system because that damper responds to static resistance changes but the furnace blower is also trying to control static. You cannot have two things controlling one variable. A bypass humdiifier (with our without a shutoff seasonable damper) is unrelated to the zoning discussion because it does not control duct static pressure.
If you set all the zones to "Max" airflow. As long as you are ok with the sound. Would that hurt anything? Very informative video. We have the exact system that you have here. Our installer also came and installed a bypass in. What's your opinion on a bypass? Thanks!!
Sound is the only real detriment to allowing the zones to go to Max airflow
Carrier, Bryant, and ICP all PROHIBIT the use of a bypass damper with this system. On all other zoning systems, a bypass damper is needed to relieve system pressure as the zone dampers throttle back. However, on this system the zoning system slows the blower speed down to relieve pressure instead. In your case, the fan speed algorithm and the bypass damper can end up fighting each other for dominant control. They need to remove that bypass damper. Are you sure you have this exact system (what is the model # of the thermostat)? Are you sure it is a bypass damper that connects the supply duct back into the return duct and it is not an outside air damper or a dump zone damper?
Having one hell of a time chasing down the source of a code 126 high heat cycle,
I understand that the dip switches for air flow doesn't mean nothing when using this zone control? And also I'm assuming that according to manual gas pressure testing procedures that I should disconnect four wire terminal block and jump r w1/w2 on standard stat board?
Yeah 126 is a newer code. It is not specific to zoning systems and will occur on non-zoned systems also. The bottom line is the furnace is locked into high fire due to an active 33 limit trip. We know it sounds weird to put it into high fire, but it is doing that to get the higher airflow. Start the troubleshooting by measure ESP.
Correct, the wall control handles the airflow settings and ignores the dip switches.
Here is how to set gas pressure - ua-cam.com/video/bI45GFiXraw/v-deo.html
I have the Carrier Infinity version of that thermostat, a carrier zone module (looks like the one you show in the video) and carrier furnace. If the house ever loses power, the thermostat goes through looking for the outdoor unit, the zones, plus the duct assessment etc. In December I lost power while we slept, I woke up with a cold house, and the thermostat waiting for me to tell how many ton the AC was, then it went though all of the initialization steps again. Once it's up and running then it turned the heat on. The contractor has replaced the thermostat twice to no avail. Once initialized it's not normal to have to go through the initialization process again is it?
No that is not normal. We have never seen an Infinity thermostat go through the install process after it losses power. In fact, in our training labs we turn off the power to the all of the systems when we are not using them and they are all fine when we turn them back on. In some cases, such as over the summer, they are turned off for 2 straight months with no power and have no issues in the fall season at all.
Will a Honeywell TruZone damper that has power close and spring open work on this infinity system? If not, can you buy the actuators separate to replace?
No, that damper will not work. Infinity dampers are modulating via a tri-stat floating point single that requires 3 wires. Honeywell dampers can't modulate at all and are 2 wire constant power closed and spring open.
Yes, you can buy and install Infinity actuators onto the shafts other brands of sheetmetal dampers.
My installer is working on an Infinity system right now for me. I have only two zones on a large ranch. They have placed 2 Infinity system controls one for each zone. Is it correct that you only use one control and then use either a smart control or sensor for the other one? Will two system controls even work together?
No, you cannot have 2 Infinity wall controls on 1 system. Zone 1 can use the Infinity control, but Zone 2 must use either a Smart Sensor or Thermistor Sensor.
Have you ever used an ION on Zone 2? If so do you just hook up DX+ & DX-? Or is a smart remote sensor the only way to go?
An Ion wall control can only be used on Zone #1. Zones 2 thru 8 can either use Remote Room Sensors (i.e. thermistors) or communicating Smart Sensors.
If you have a Day & Night system with an older Comfortmaker communicating control system, can you replace that with Ion? In other words, you remove the zone control board and existing thermostats and replace them with Ion equivalents. Will that be able to talk to the existing furnace and outdoor unit?
Yes. Ion controllers and zone boards are compatible with older ICP communicating equipment such as furnaces and condensing units that used to have Observer controls connected to them. With that said, you can't mix the zone controls (i.e., have an Observer zone board with an Ion wall control, etc)
@@TECTubefilms Thanks for replying. I have a ZONE0101ZP6 zone board and some TSTAT0201CWs that just won't talk to each other. Do you know if replacing the thermostats with TSTAT0101SCs would work? The zone board manual mentions those, but not the '0201s. Had 3 separate techs out and they couldn't make it work.
@@__S__435 All 3 of the model numbers you listed above appear to be part of the obsolete Observer control line. The Observer control line is totally different than the Ion controllers shown in our video and we don't have a lot of expertise with Observer. In general, we would not recommend removing the latest version of electronics (TSTAT0201CW) and replacing it with older versions (TSTAT0101SC). Presumably your system was functional when installed 6+ years ago so something has changed. It can be troubleshot with an electrical meter, as well as by temporarily relocating control widgets next to the equipment and adding them back onto the network one at a time for communication testing to determine the widget causing the issue.
@@TECTubefilms It actually never worked. (The zoning, that is. Everything else is fine.) The reno project stalled, the company that installed all the equipment (except the thermostats) broke up, and the system was eventually finished by someone who appears to be a handyman. I'm thinking the ZONE0101ZP6 may just have old, incompatible firmware since the TSTATs are much newer. It has a programming header, but no one I've talked to is interested in trying to flash it. That's why I'm thinking the older '0101 thermostats might work... same era, probably compatible firmware. I have two of these systems and the problem is identical on both, so it seems unlikely to be a fried zone board or a frayed cable. Since no tech will have anything to do with this (all 3 had never seen it before!) I'm left to figure it out on my own, and you know what, it's REAL hot in my workshop 'cause the zoning doesn't work!
@@__S__435 There is only one vintage of Observer zoning panel as far as we know. If it never worked then it is most likely not wired correctly or not commissioned correctly (the main stat has to discover the zone board and zone stats during setup). We are also wonder if the people that you are trying to hire to fix this are official "ICP Elite Dealers" or just random HVAC companies? You can search for a dealer on ComfortMaker website. Or you can also try other major ICP brands like Heil, Tempstar, Day & Night, etc. The Observer system is identical for all of them. www.comfortmaker.com/en/us/find-a-dealer/
Being Carrier/Bryant are now the same as Heil/Comfortmaker. Can I get a new Carrier zone system and pair it up with a new Heil two stage furnace. I handle Heil equipment, but the vendor only handles Honeywell zoning, so I would need to go to the Carrier vendor to get the zoning system.
Heil has its own zoning system. It works exactly the same as Carrier/Bryant but it is not interchangeable with Carrier/Bryant. The Ion main stat is needed to communicate with the Heil Ion furnace. A Carrier Infinity or a Bryant Evolution stat will not communicate to an Ion furnace.
Hi does Bryant make these zone controls for the 2-stage preferred systems?
The have a similar, but more primaries system available called Legacy 3-zone system. It is only for 2 or 3 zone systems. And it does a lot less. It is similar to other zoning systems made by Honeywell, Aprilaire, Jackson Systems, EWC, Zonex, Trol-A-Temp, California Economizer, etc.
I added a zone to my Evolution system. The damper for that zone will not open all the way or close all the way.
I double checked the 3 wires and all are correct.
When I put 20 volts to the damper controller it in opens and closes completely. Any suggestions?
It will not open/close at all or it will not open/close all the way? Your troubleshooting will take two different paths based on that.
If it won't move at all, make sure it recognizes the new wall sensor you added and make sure you re-programmed your system and set the CFM for this new zone.
If it moves some, but not all the way it could be configured in the main stat to reduce CFM... or more likely would be that you used a non-Carrier damper that has a different timing range. Since it is a 3-point floating control (as opposed to direct 2-10vdc or 4-20mA signal), the controller only powers the actuator for X amount of seconds. The actuator you install has to have the same timing as that control board to move X degrees in X seconds. For that reason, you pretty much have to use a Carrier zone damper (or figure out the timing by measuring the output with a meter and then go buy an actuator to match that.
BTW - it is a 24vac motor, not 20vac. Although 20 may be enough to drive it.
Can you use 2 of the new updated ion control thermostats to run two separate zones off the same board? Both thermostats would be wired to the same terminal on the control board and when doing such I cannot setup more than one zone. Do I need to replace one of the thermostats with a sensor instead?
No, only one Ion stat can be used per system. You will need to replace one of them with Smart Sensor.
@@TECTubefilms its amazing. Carriers techs that they shove you to at your local Johnstone Supply couldn't figure this issue out. I tell you through 4 sentences and you're able to figure it out. Thank you. I hope this works and will keep you updated.
@@seanfreyy Well... in their defense we don't expect Carrier techs to know how ICP stuff works. Sometimes it is different. The old ICP Observer Stat (predecessor to Ion) was able to be used in the way you described where you could use an Observer for zone #2, 3, or 4.
@@seanfreyy Wait... we just realized you said that your Johnstone store that you bought ICP products from told you to call your competitor at a Carrier dealer to answer your technical questions? WTH?
I see where the original confusion on their end came from where the old style used to work as sensors. After calling carrier for tech support they referred us to our local Johnstone where they have “specialized techs” for troubleshooting these products.
Smart Sensor is on order and hopefully comes in soon.
where can I buy these thermostat products? I can only find the ION thermostat itself online. I can't find the zone board or the smaller room/zone controlers. I would prefer them to be wired also. I am getting an airquest communicating system like this and want the feature to control the cfm per zone. and are any of these brands listed compatible with the other, so In other words, can i get a ion thermostat and use a carrier infinity control board with individual bryant room/zone thermostats... thanks!
All Carrier and Bryant components can be swapped with each other. Ion, however, speaks a different language so its components have different communicate drivers installed. So while the Ion hardware is the same as Carrier/Bryant, it is not interchangeable.
All of these brands have local dealer networks that design and install these zoning systems. Each brand has a zip code finder on their website to locate an installing dealer.
@@TECTubefilms can I put a carrier or bryant thermostat zoning system on an airquest g96ctn communicating air handler?
@@cultivateinnovations No, the equipment controls speak a different languages. Carrier/Bryant speaks A/B language and ICP speaks Dx+/Dx- language.
Does this zone board control can work with nest thermostats?
No, it does not use standard 24v thermostats. It uses sensor in the zones instead of thermostats. Carrier and Bryant, along with Honeywell, have standard zoning systems that will work with regular stats like nest.
I can not get my static below .8 on 5th stage no matter how much ductwork I’ve added. Is this a byproduct of a zoned system ?
No, it is not because of the zoning system. We are assuming all of your dampers are open when in 5th stage so the pressure drop caused by the dampers is minimal when they are open. If you have single blade dampers, the pressure drop is essentially 0. If you have opposed blade, such as the slip-in style, then it will be higher. You can measure the pressure drop with a dual port manometer if desired.
Other contributors to external static pressure (ESP) are evaporator coil (and its condition), ductwork diameter, ductwork length, elbows and transitions, high efficiency filters, balancing dampers, and diffuser outlets
You should also make sure you have the wall control configured for the correct heating and cooling mode fan CFMs. The higher the CFM you told it to run at, the higher your static will be.
Tec Tube ok I was thinking the cfm setting at the wall control would determine damper opening position allowing x amount of air to flow. That could be the problem. So reducing the cfm at the wall control will actually slow the motor itself down? Ion zoning system btw
@@MedleyHeatingACPlumbing It is a variable speed furnace so if you ask it for high CFM, it will have to run at high RPM to get that. Your static is going to be higher than normal if your CFM and RPM are high.
I have a damper issue. Why when actuator is in opening mode it throw power to power close? It's impossible to receive power on both.. Or power open or power close depending on control calls.
We are not sure what you are saying or asking
@@TECTubefilms i figured it out already. The infiniti zone use modulated dampers actuators
@@joeschneider67 True. They are modulating dampers with 3-point floating style control signal. The motor only moves when 24vac is applied and then freezes in its position when no power. The control pulses the damper "more open" or "more closed."
@@TECTubefilms well, when damper is opening, gets the power to open, but also send power to close. That's the part that makes my braid spanning. I mean, of apply power to open or to close, but not both at same time
Make sure your PO AND PC WIRES ARE NOT SHORTED TOGETHER. @@joeschneider67
Could you please make a video walking us through how to wire the Infinity zone controller?
You just wire A, B, C, and D on each device (furnace, A/C, wall control, zone board etc) to each other. Any order you want.
@@TECTubefilms hey! i did it but can't find any equipment installed, I have installed bryant evolution 284ANV heat pump and Carrier 59TP6B furnace! Connected ABCD connector on both and can't find anything. any idea what is going on? i need your help! thanks
@@jsevill1 This is a new install with a brand new out of the box, never been used stat?
@@jsevill1 Have you called the distributor you purchased the stat from and talked to their tech support yet?
@@jsevill1 Why do you have a Bryant heat pump on a Carrier furnace? It will work with that stat, but just trying to figure out what you have going on here.
Can u show how to wire zone board and zones up
Ryan goes thru the damper wiring a little bit at the beginning explaining the 3 wire scenario. Just match OPEN on the damper to OPEN on the board, then the same with CLOSED, and finally with COMMON. Do that for each zone damper you wire back to the board. Is there something more specific you are referring to? Do you have the wiring diagram available to you?
Can you mix Evolution system with Ion system
If you are asking if you can put an Evolution stat on an Ion furnace or vice-versa, no you cannot. But some other items like dampers and sensors are the same.
You did not show the part where and how to asign the smart sensor to a zone
We did. Watch the video at minute mark 4:00
Cant see the wiring, 3 outa 10
My evolution 3-zone setup has this issue--the two zones athat aren't calling for heat are still getting heat with heat called for at one zone. I can't tell if the dampers aren't functioning properly. The installer thinks the system may be dumping heat at two zones due to an overheating issue.. Any ideas? Thanks!
If the smallest zone can handle less CFM than the furnace can turn down to, then the system will look to send air into a zone that is in the "away mode." If no zones are in away, it has to send the excess air to other zones. It has to send it somewhere OR shut off the heat completely.
This can be avoided during the design phase by selecting smaller capacity equipment AND looking at its required minimum airflow too.