They’ll pretend they didn’t hear you. If you think prices are going down you’ll be yelling for a long time. At a certain point you’re not paying for parts, you’re paying for the time it takes to make them.
@@shammy2010 well shucky darnes, I reckon all the PSG-1’s, M1 Garand match, Manurhin, Korth, Caspian slides and Olympic gold metal winning pistols like Pernini or all just a fluke. You are really smart.
John is right: 1- works out of the box 2- 3 mags 3- sights are on out of the factory, not rear-sight drifted, a mile off. CZ breaks in the pistols before they ever reach the retailer. This is responsible and should be the norm.
I can't say enough how chill Guncon was. Everyone was so friendly and relaxed. It was freaking crowded, elbow to elbow, but everyone took turns and moved around like adults. Loved it, thank you all who were involved and worked hard to put it on. More events like this should exist. It builds the community and we really need that.
Yea, I think that's a little more fair for rifles, especially some of the 'less ideal' actions. Every option on the market doesn't need to be a sniper rifle, there's still room for flawed fun stuff. In general, I like his listed standards though. Dead on about the mags.
Yes, we should demand better from gun companies. Panic sales are over, so give us a good reason to buy your product. Take BUL for example. They now have 4 (yes, FOUR) magazines with every pistol. And those glorious 20rnd 126mm tubes are higher capacity than Staccato, and the entire thing is still $400 cheaper and better feeling. No wonder they are always sold out before the importer even knows a new batch made it into the country.
Bul is a fantastic example. Their Radical Ships with an entire IPSC Box to drive home the point that the gun fits in it. Optics Plates included Additional Recoil Springs included in varying strengths to find the right one for you I think in the US, the bar has been set incredibly low because so many manufacturers sell to M&LE where they routinely just deliver bar minimum for big bucks.
I don't get people that don't want more than one mag with their weapon. "I don't want to pay for it!" The first thing I do when I buy a new weapon is buy 10 magazines for it. I shoot my guns, magazines are a consumable. They wear out. If you want a safe queen fine, but the standard should be 3 with the gun.
Standards are, I'd say, valid for guns in about the 1000-1500 range. If you're breaking four digits for a naked rifle (most of them don't include sights) that had better be a damn precision machine that lays dimes. To some degree it's a little oxymoronic to say "loosen tolerance, make guns just run without break in" and also demand PRS accuracy because that's kind of a raw mechanical give and take, but I agree with the sentiment on anything above $800.
What do you expect? Guys in the gun media literally do not understand what "tolerance" is and mistakenly use the term when what they actually mean more often than not is "clearance".
Absolutely! 3 mags should be standard! 2 moa for sub $900 rifles 1.5 moa for $900-$1200, 1 moa for $1200 -$1800 and sub-moa for $1800-$3k. But if a rifle is above $3k that bastard better sub-3/4moa. Take my FN SCAR-H 20" that barely gets 2.5moa for $4,000 Rifle! That's B.S.! I can only squeeze out 1.5moa with handloads on a perfect day and that is it.
@@adamturnbull6157 with a bunch of caveats like with 1 ammo brand, shooting 10 groups of 3 rounds, only 1 group has to be 1 moa. Company moa guarantees are a joke
I asked one of the food truck girls how the clientele at Guncon rated compared to other events shes done. She thought a little bit and said everybody’s really nice here.
Gonna let you in on a little Guntube secret. Most rifles are 3-2 MOA on average and the 1.5-1 MOA groups are cherry picked. Also 2 MOA is an accurate gun. Sub MOA is an extremely precise rifle.
Right on Jon - I’d say 2” at 10 yards is table stakes for pistols (realistically it should be 2” at 25 yards). A lot do that already, but those that don’t need to be sub $200. For bolt action rifles I’m ok with 1 or 2 mags, but agree with you for everything else I’d also like to add that all ARs should come iron sights and all pistols must have a pic rail (and yes I’m looking at you CZ for the TS2 series)
Nah he's definitely cooking man we need a higher standard in the industry. Buying a 2500+ rifle and getting one plastic magazine in a cardboard box with barely 1MOA accuracy is a bit fucked.
He is 1000% percent correct on all points and completely agree across the board. Keep up the amazing content on both channels and hope to see industry step up quality without wanting a mortgage price to obtain stuff which is where we are at right now....even a high end Ar platform shouldnt ever be more than 1500 or 2grand regardless what logo is on it IMO
If a gun needs to be "fire fit" it needs to be cycled at the factory. I think the accuracy standard needs some more on it. 1moa with what ammo? And how many shots? Because I'm sorry, but 3 or 5 shot groups are bs. I have seen PSA rifles with decent ammo print 1mo 3 or even 5 round groups. Push it to 9 rounds...you're lucky to get sub 2moa out of most guns with match ammo.
3mags for pistol is a good standard 3 for standard semiautomatic rifles 2 for chassis and bolt guns that have detachable mags. Accuracy is pretty subjective for rifles. Especially with the various quality and consistency of ammunition and the wide variety of rifle components that affect the accuracy potential. 9 hole reviews shows that the on paper accuracy is not always the best indicator for success and that the rifle system all contributes to the performance
People need to wake up and realize this is part of a bigger problem. Modern companies are max profits. It’s gonna take an evolution in modern business not to price gouge and make the best product.
I mean, we're also living in an era where we have more and higher quality options at more affordable price points than ever too. I don't see a "problem" with the industry, I just see greater standards that can be strived for. Don't take for granted what we have today.
Jon's thoughts are excellent. And, two of my pistols at opposite ends of the price spectrum, came with 3 mags - my Taurus G3C and my Beretta 92. Both have also proven extremely reliable. Not that my Glocks, Walthers and SIGS have not, but they came with two mags.
I would agree with Jon except the accuracy standard, it needs more specificity to be a thing. Example: all rifles under $2000 must achieve 5 3 round groups with ball ammo @ 2 MOA, All rifles over $2000 must be sub MOA with the same constants.
@TheGunCollective definitely! I only knew you from TGC News until this interview, then I did a little digging and found the podcast. Never would have checked it our without seeing this side of you!
Absolutely agree. Industry standards and advancements in materials warrant setting the bar higher for 1moa. My semi auto 5.56 does 1moa. I didn'tbpay 2k for it.
Very few AR15s on the market are actually sub-moa if you shoot 10 shot groups. Very few. Geissele can do it. I can't think of any other large manufacturer that can actually do it that I've witnessed on the range. My daniel defense won't. My BCMs are pretty accurate but not reliably 1-moa, more like 1.5-2moa. The SR15's I've shot were around 2moa according to their owners. Even my Criterion barrels are shooting like 1.5moa usually. My Geissele barrel is the only AR15 barrel I own that is reliably 1-moa with good ammo. The rest are close but not quite there. If you shoot 3 shot groups everything is submoa. If you shoot 5 shot groups a decent amount are 1-moa. If you shoot 10 shot groups the wheels fall off and suddenly your tack driver is a combat rifle getting combat accuracy. The other aspect of this is---sub moa with WHAT? Ammo that costs $3 a round? Well it better be! AR15s are accurate for what they are but they're not accurate compared to bolt guns or a really high end AR10. Although from what I've heard even the SR25 isn't reliably sub-moa and its one of the most expensive production rifles in the world.
@@lurtiskoe Oh yeah I forgot about them. Noveske barrels have a very good reputation for accuracy which would make sense cuz I'm pretty sure they're using stainless barrels aren't they? Radian is too. And see that's the thing. The technology to make accurate rifles has been out for a long time. The answer quite literally is to use a stainless steel match grade barrel. But the problem is people think they need a CHF CL barrel to do commando shit even though they're never going to do any of that and even if they did the stainless barrel would be just fine. Some people are starting to see that the barrel life for stainless barrels in 5.56 is plenty respectable and isn't like a 6.5CM stainless barrel that will degrade after only a few thousand rounds. There are a lot of people who have high round counts on those Sage Dynamics 12.5 Rosco barrels and they're still going strong. Either way, I don't think most people will ever burn out ANY rifle barrel. The average gun owner goes shooting once a year if that.
@@zombieslayer7759 I've never seen one at the range nor have I seen anyone shoot a 10shot group online out of them. All I have seen is 5 shot groups from Mr.Gunsngear and he fired 4 loads and 2 of them were just barely submoa. I'm willing to believe their gun can shoot a true 1moa group but I'd like to see some 10 shot groups so if you own one please post a video of it in action with a 10 shot group. The fact that he did have 2 loads shoot approximately 1moa with 5 round groups is already better than most guns. They also happen to be very aesthetically pleasing which is a nice touch. Another one I forgot that does seem to be legitimately accurate is Centurion. Centurion is very good and definitely underrated.
@@armorers_wrenchthe easy answer to someone questioning barrel life is “if you can afford the ammo necessary to burn out a barrel, you can afford a new barrel” Even something as powerful as 28 nosler thats been reported down to as low as 800 rounds before accuracy gets to unacceptable, if you can afford a case of that ammo, you can get that gun re-barreled no problemo
he aint wrong with the rifle standart, nuz i would add that below 1k everything goes accuracy wise, 1-2k should be 1.25MOA or better and 2k+ has to be sub MOA
Larue tactical i love your stuff but….. 100$ for a metal ar10/sr25 20 round mag / Geissele 100$ for a 20 or 25 round 6 arc magazine……. I agree with patton shit needs to more realistic
I agree with John on nearly all points with the exception of his accuracy expectation. I completely understand for bolt action rifles and precision type rifles but not all guns are made for that. AR-15's or AK's for instance if they can make it shoot 1" 10 round groups, and function flawlessly covered in dirt, and mud then yeah it should, but I have yet to see that. So with defensive rifles they should be as accurate as they can make them and still function flawlessly even in harsh conditions and under harsh use. "Everything is a trade off." How often have we heard that? On the other hand that's probably why we accept sub par firearms, with one magazine in the box. Because it's a trade off for something. Most likely we are trading a lack of exta mags for a bigger number on the CEO's pay check.
@@scholasticaltactical9058 I have 5 degrees if you wanna go there and studied Nuclear Medicine and engineering. What I have learned is schools have no issue telling students what they want to hear.
@@kaybee2810 I’ll take the engineering degree, but what does Nuke Med gave to do with the price of tea n china. I have a few degrees, biomed, culinary arts, gunsmithing. Jk, my wife is a radiation therapist. Respect.
What Johns not realizing is that the gun with the tight tolerances that he has to spend his own money breaking in, it's just not for him. That's one of the beautiful things about the gun industry is all the choices. Don't make the same mistake Lucas Botkin did in his podcast. Choices are a good thing, John. You talk about a relaxed atmosphere then get all uppity about a particular type pistol. Again, choices are a good thing
I agree with him, and that is his standard for him to do reviews on his channel , he can do whatever he wants on his channel . Manufacturers don't have to send him anything for review that's their choice . Why is anyone upset about this 🤔
I will say my one disagreement is that I think the MOA thing on a rifle can be over 1moa if the gun is under 600 bucks. Cuz those guns are clearly not serious use guns. In every other respect, I’m completely in agreement.
There's no such thing as an inaccurate handgun at 10 yards unless it's keyholing. Even then, there can't be an inaccurate gun at that range. It's all the shooter at that distance. It's not the gun being inaccurate. That range is practically holding it against the target and pulling the trigger
The people in the comments complaining about swearing would faint if they were ever on a machine shop floor, listening to the colourful language of the people who make the very guns they buy. A bunch of companies got bullied for making unreliable/crappy guns online for years and then turned it around, making very high VALUE (Quality/Price) products. There's no reason the others can't do the same.
He’s right if customers don’t start demanding better products at lower prices it will never happen
They’ll pretend they didn’t hear you. If you think prices are going down you’ll be yelling for a long time. At a certain point you’re not paying for parts, you’re paying for the time it takes to make them.
@@The_Black_Falchion More specifically you're paying for machine time and the time it takes to QC the parts.
@@shammy2010 well shucky darnes, I reckon all the PSG-1’s, M1 Garand match, Manurhin, Korth, Caspian slides and Olympic gold metal winning pistols like Pernini or all just a fluke. You are really smart.
Consumers have to be willing to pay for and buy these things.
@@Bigbossman12624 yeah, if you’re into PRS, or hunting a big horn sheep 4 MOA isn’t good enough.
John is right:
1- works out of the box
2- 3 mags
3- sights are on out of the factory, not rear-sight drifted, a mile off.
CZ breaks in the pistols before they ever reach the retailer. This is responsible and should be the norm.
Sights are made of metal and designed to be used and not immediately replaced
@@adamturnbull6157, yes.
Thanks for the agreement.
3 mags minimum
Four
YES. I agree LOL
"...the core pillar of this is building a stronger gun community..." - ahhh, makes sense why the NRA didn't support them then
Yeah. Kinda made sense why they had the falling out.
Funny how that works right? They had no interest in supporting the future of the gun community.
Each gun should come with 3 magazines MINIMUM
Honestly I think they should come with 5 ideally.
TRUTH!
Would be great , personally 2 should be minimum, 3 is awesome and 1 is unacceptable 😑
I can't say enough how chill Guncon was. Everyone was so friendly and relaxed. It was freaking crowded, elbow to elbow, but everyone took turns and moved around like adults.
Loved it, thank you all who were involved and worked hard to put it on.
More events like this should exist. It builds the community and we really need that.
Thank you for being there. I'm really glad to hear you had a good time!
Damn I need to catch up. Didn't even know about GunCon.
Also love that PSR shows up in character.
Now you know! haha. PSR is fantastic. Such a good dude.
For rifles 2 MOA w/ 2.5 or less stoppages per 1000 rounds. Not a high standard but one I wish guns costing $3k made 100% of the time.
Yea, I think that's a little more fair for rifles, especially some of the 'less ideal' actions. Every option on the market doesn't need to be a sniper rifle, there's still room for flawed fun stuff.
In general, I like his listed standards though. Dead on about the mags.
I like this version of John
LOL i dunno about this guy.
Yes, we should demand better from gun companies. Panic sales are over, so give us a good reason to buy your product.
Take BUL for example. They now have 4 (yes, FOUR) magazines with every pistol. And those glorious 20rnd 126mm tubes are higher capacity than Staccato, and the entire thing is still $400 cheaper and better feeling. No wonder they are always sold out before the importer even knows a new batch made it into the country.
O, I got to go hands on with their entire line at gun con... I want a 5inch version
Bul is a fantastic example.
Their Radical Ships with an entire IPSC Box to drive home the point that the gun fits in it.
Optics Plates included
Additional Recoil Springs included in varying strengths to find the right one for you
I think in the US, the bar has been set incredibly low because so many manufacturers sell to M&LE where they routinely just deliver bar minimum for big bucks.
Bul Armory is one of the most customer focused brands I've worked with.
Nooo, if they make better guns it will destroy Hop's schtick!
Hop will still hate them. Hop hates everything.
Good
Homeboy, he has moved upmarket.
@AndrewDasilvaPLT It's that damn corrupting Shorts Lawyer money!
600.00 PSA versus whatever expensive rival probably groups the same
This guy is badass. It’s about time we as consumers start demanding more from these lazy manufacturers
Thanks for the support!
I agree with John, great video on gun con home to make it out one day
Jon drops like 20 f bombs, and then Luke slips once and had to be censored? lol
LOL i thought the entire thing would be censored! I would have toned it down a bit.
GunCon 2024 sounded like a blast with its expanded panels and diverse voices.
I like the unedited John Patton
Me too.
3 mags. Especially if a company has propriertary/expensive mags.
Yup. Preach.
I don't get people that don't want more than one mag with their weapon. "I don't want to pay for it!" The first thing I do when I buy a new weapon is buy 10 magazines for it. I shoot my guns, magazines are a consumable. They wear out. If you want a safe queen fine, but the standard should be 3 with the gun.
super weird right?
Jon's fun to listen to now, imagine him with three beers in
I don't drink very often and rarely more than one, because I know I'll say something fucked up LOL
Standards are, I'd say, valid for guns in about the 1000-1500 range. If you're breaking four digits for a naked rifle (most of them don't include sights) that had better be a damn precision machine that lays dimes.
To some degree it's a little oxymoronic to say "loosen tolerance, make guns just run without break in" and also demand PRS accuracy because that's kind of a raw mechanical give and take, but I agree with the sentiment on anything above $800.
What do you expect? Guys in the gun media literally do not understand what "tolerance" is and mistakenly use the term when what they actually mean more often than not is "clearance".
Guns don't have to be so tight that they don't function to be accurate.
Absolutely! 3 mags should be standard! 2 moa for sub $900 rifles 1.5 moa for $900-$1200, 1 moa for $1200 -$1800 and sub-moa for $1800-$3k. But if a rifle is above $3k that bastard better sub-3/4moa. Take my FN SCAR-H 20" that barely gets 2.5moa for $4,000 Rifle! That's B.S.! I can only squeeze out 1.5moa with handloads on a perfect day and that is it.
maybe 1% of semi autos would be sub moa at an 1800 price point. fudds claiming 1 moa or sub moa all day need to put up their 10rd groups or shut up.
I assume you're talking semi auto's. There is a shitload of bolt actions that have a one moa guarantee.
@@adamturnbull6157 with a bunch of caveats like with 1 ammo brand, shooting 10 groups of 3 rounds, only 1 group has to be 1 moa. Company moa guarantees are a joke
It's a given that the standard should be *I don't believe it until I see it*.
You are more generous than I am haha
After this interview I like Jon Patton a LOT better.. He is right 100% Its not 1925 you fuckers get with the program!
Thanks for the support.
I asked one of the food truck girls how the clientele at Guncon rated compared to other events shes done. She thought a little bit and said everybody’s really nice here.
Well thats good to hear. I appreciate that feedback!
@@TheGunCollective an armed society is a polite society
I agree with John. Keep pushing and don't accept BS especially at premium prices.
Thank you!
Another great interview from Handon Berrera! ( I didn't think of the name, but I feel it fits... pass it on! )
Temu Brandon LOL
I see Luke, I smash that like button.
Same!
If you're paying $2,000 for a 2 MOA Rifle = you deserve it.
Gonna let you in on a little Guntube secret. Most rifles are 3-2 MOA on average and the 1.5-1 MOA groups are cherry picked. Also 2 MOA is an accurate gun. Sub MOA is an extremely precise rifle.
I am 100% in approval of Jons non-negotiable standards.
Here's to hoping GunCon becomes the SHOT show for every day consumers.
We shall see. I suspect it won't ever be that large because shows that large are a waste of money for everyone involved.
Right on Jon - I’d say 2” at 10 yards is table stakes for pistols (realistically it should be 2” at 25 yards). A lot do that already, but those that don’t need to be sub $200.
For bolt action rifles I’m ok with 1 or 2 mags, but agree with you for everything else
I’d also like to add that all ARs should come iron sights and all pistols must have a pic rail (and yes I’m looking at you CZ for the TS2 series)
Nah he's definitely cooking man we need a higher standard in the industry. Buying a 2500+ rifle and getting one plastic magazine in a cardboard box with barely 1MOA accuracy is a bit fucked.
EXACTLY. Thanks for the support on this!
The flip side:
We can't...or won't...
work to meet those demands.
Personally, I completely agree with Jon.
THank you!
Thanks Jon! You are the higher standard for guns! And it shows!,
He is 1000% percent correct on all points and completely agree across the board. Keep up the amazing content on both channels and hope to see industry step up quality without wanting a mortgage price to obtain stuff which is where we are at right now....even a high end Ar platform shouldnt ever be more than 1500 or 2grand regardless what logo is on it IMO
Thank you!
Primary Arms appreciates you Joe Bob reference.
This is the best video John has done in my opinion!!!
Nicely done, on all accounts!
AMEN, BROTHER JON!
Jon’s 💯 on point. IMO, 1.5 MOA will suffice for rifles.
would love to start giving my money to companies that start adhering to this standard or above
Take a drink every time John says the F word
After 10 minutes it turns out I'm not going in for the graveyard shift
Somebody help me off the floor. I can't stand up.......😁
He’s so edgy
Godspeed LOL
The extreme frankness in this interview is astounding.I love it!
Thank you for the support!
Spicy today. I like it.
1.5 inches for a rifle is realistic.
Love this guy- spot on
If a gun needs to be "fire fit" it needs to be cycled at the factory.
I think the accuracy standard needs some more on it. 1moa with what ammo? And how many shots? Because I'm sorry, but 3 or 5 shot groups are bs. I have seen PSA rifles with decent ammo print 1mo 3 or even 5 round groups. Push it to 9 rounds...you're lucky to get sub 2moa out of most guns with match ammo.
I definitely agree
3mags for pistol is a good standard
3 for standard semiautomatic rifles
2 for chassis and bolt guns that have detachable mags.
Accuracy is pretty subjective for rifles. Especially with the various quality and consistency of ammunition and the wide variety of rifle components that affect the accuracy potential.
9 hole reviews shows that the on paper accuracy is not always the best indicator for success and that the rifle system all contributes to the performance
People need to wake up and realize this is part of a bigger problem. Modern companies are max profits. It’s gonna take an evolution in modern business not to price gouge and make the best product.
I’m afraid this is the new American way.
I mean, we're also living in an era where we have more and higher quality options at more affordable price points than ever too. I don't see a "problem" with the industry, I just see greater standards that can be strived for.
Don't take for granted what we have today.
Best interview ever 😂
Thank you!
A man of the people
It wasn’t till today after hearing John speak freely, that now I believe he’s from Chester area.
I think one of Mr. Patton’s failings is he doesn’t say F%ck enough.
🔥🔥 awesome
Jon's thoughts are excellent. And, two of my pistols at opposite ends of the price spectrum, came with 3 mags - my Taurus G3C and my Beretta 92. Both have also proven extremely reliable. Not that my Glocks, Walthers and SIGS have not, but they came with two mags.
I would agree with Jon except the accuracy standard, it needs more specificity to be a thing.
Example: all rifles under $2000 must achieve 5 3 round groups with ball ammo @ 2 MOA, All rifles over $2000 must be sub MOA with the same constants.
This is a whole different side of Jon I've never seen on TGC... I need more of it.
In my mind this is just a slower paced version of the same stuff I say on TGC. Maybe I should stop censoring the curse words haha.
@TheGunCollective definitely! I only knew you from TGC News until this interview, then I did a little digging and found the podcast. Never would have checked it our without seeing this side of you!
Absolutely agree. Industry standards and advancements in materials warrant setting the bar higher for 1moa. My semi auto 5.56 does 1moa. I didn'tbpay 2k for it.
agree with every one of those new standards
Not just accuracy n working outta the box but lasting more than 3 rounds (exaggerated) before falling apart
This guy rocks
Get'em bro! 😃
absolutely I'm with Jon on this no more money for any non 1moa guns with 3 mags.
Very few AR15s on the market are actually sub-moa if you shoot 10 shot groups. Very few. Geissele can do it. I can't think of any other large manufacturer that can actually do it that I've witnessed on the range. My daniel defense won't. My BCMs are pretty accurate but not reliably 1-moa, more like 1.5-2moa. The SR15's I've shot were around 2moa according to their owners. Even my Criterion barrels are shooting like 1.5moa usually. My Geissele barrel is the only AR15 barrel I own that is reliably 1-moa with good ammo. The rest are close but not quite there.
If you shoot 3 shot groups everything is submoa. If you shoot 5 shot groups a decent amount are 1-moa. If you shoot 10 shot groups the wheels fall off and suddenly your tack driver is a combat rifle getting combat accuracy.
The other aspect of this is---sub moa with WHAT? Ammo that costs $3 a round? Well it better be! AR15s are accurate for what they are but they're not accurate compared to bolt guns or a really high end AR10. Although from what I've heard even the SR25 isn't reliably sub-moa and its one of the most expensive production rifles in the world.
maybe radian, or noveske
Blackout Defense is.
@@lurtiskoe Oh yeah I forgot about them. Noveske barrels have a very good reputation for accuracy which would make sense cuz I'm pretty sure they're using stainless barrels aren't they? Radian is too.
And see that's the thing. The technology to make accurate rifles has been out for a long time. The answer quite literally is to use a stainless steel match grade barrel. But the problem is people think they need a CHF CL barrel to do commando shit even though they're never going to do any of that and even if they did the stainless barrel would be just fine. Some people are starting to see that the barrel life for stainless barrels in 5.56 is plenty respectable and isn't like a 6.5CM stainless barrel that will degrade after only a few thousand rounds.
There are a lot of people who have high round counts on those Sage Dynamics 12.5 Rosco barrels and they're still going strong. Either way, I don't think most people will ever burn out ANY rifle barrel. The average gun owner goes shooting once a year if that.
@@zombieslayer7759 I've never seen one at the range nor have I seen anyone shoot a 10shot group online out of them. All I have seen is 5 shot groups from Mr.Gunsngear and he fired 4 loads and 2 of them were just barely submoa. I'm willing to believe their gun can shoot a true 1moa group but I'd like to see some 10 shot groups so if you own one please post a video of it in action with a 10 shot group.
The fact that he did have 2 loads shoot approximately 1moa with 5 round groups is already better than most guns. They also happen to be very aesthetically pleasing which is a nice touch.
Another one I forgot that does seem to be legitimately accurate is Centurion. Centurion is very good and definitely underrated.
@@armorers_wrenchthe easy answer to someone questioning barrel life is “if you can afford the ammo necessary to burn out a barrel, you can afford a new barrel”
Even something as powerful as 28 nosler thats been reported down to as low as 800 rounds before accuracy gets to unacceptable, if you can afford a case of that ammo, you can get that gun re-barreled no problemo
*Great stuff. Please keep it coming!* 😃👍
The biggest thing is reliability people shouldn't have to handpicked their ammo so heavily so they're guns don't Jam constantly
How bout “red dot capable” and have to pay for a plate and shipping
he aint wrong with the rifle standart, nuz i would add that below 1k everything goes accuracy wise, 1-2k should be 1.25MOA or better and 2k+ has to be sub MOA
John Patton is the Funko pop collector of guns
Jon spittin troof!
Best video ever
I love that he shits on Glock regularly, then his standard for pistols is...Glock*
(*- Yes, a few Glock models have 2 mags, but most come with 3)
Larue tactical i love your stuff but….. 100$ for a metal ar10/sr25 20 round mag / Geissele 100$ for a 20 or 25 round 6 arc magazine……. I agree with patton shit needs to more realistic
So good to hear him not beeped! 😂
LOL should we stop censoring TGC?
@@TheGunCollective It helps that passion get across!
Yeah. My new MPX and SCAR came with one mag each. Insanity.
The problem with wanting accuracy from a gas gun is spending 3x's more for accurate ammo
I agree with John on nearly all points with the exception of his accuracy expectation. I completely understand for bolt action rifles and precision type rifles but not all guns are made for that. AR-15's or AK's for instance if they can make it shoot 1" 10 round groups, and function flawlessly covered in dirt, and mud then yeah it should, but I have yet to see that. So with defensive rifles they should be as accurate as they can make them and still function flawlessly even in harsh conditions and under harsh use. "Everything is a trade off." How often have we heard that? On the other hand that's probably why we accept sub par firearms, with one magazine in the box. Because it's a trade off for something. Most likely we are trading a lack of exta mags for a bigger number on the CEO's pay check.
Tightness=Accuracy is what I’ve been told…in gun smithing school.
They lied to you....surprise surprise.
I don’t really have time to go through this in another thread, read a book and get back to me.
@@scholasticaltactical9058 I have 5 degrees if you wanna go there and studied Nuclear Medicine and engineering. What I have learned is schools have no issue telling students what they want to hear.
@@kaybee2810 I’ll take the engineering degree, but what does Nuke Med gave to do with the price of tea n china. I have a few degrees, biomed, culinary arts, gunsmithing. Jk, my wife is a radiation therapist. Respect.
@scholasticaltactical9058 Back at you my guy. 👍
I like Jon goes to other people's channels to cuss like a sailor 😂
LOL this is how I normally speak, albeit a bit more sailor-ish when i'm as exhausted as I was when we filmed this haha.
just realized I was on the other account when I responded. Hi from this one. LOL
3:51 If Loose Goose is good enough for Jon, Loose goose is good enough for me.
We got discount Brandon Herrera before GTA 6
Companies will just pass the costs of extra mags onto the customer because you won’t get enough consumers on board to make a difference.
3 mags min. 1 MOA min @ 100. If $300 bolt guns can hit 0.5 MOA so can $1.5k ARs.
What Johns not realizing is that the gun with the tight tolerances that he has to spend his own money breaking in, it's just not for him. That's one of the beautiful things about the gun industry is all the choices. Don't make the same mistake Lucas Botkin did in his podcast. Choices are a good thing, John. You talk about a relaxed atmosphere then get all uppity about a particular type pistol. Again, choices are a good thing
I agree with him, and that is his standard for him to do reviews on his channel , he can do whatever he wants on his channel . Manufacturers don't have to send him anything for review that's their choice . Why is anyone upset about this 🤔
God love you John! You're the man!
All magazines should cost less than 50 bucks…..
the rifle standards should absolutely be adopted. Bare minimum.
I love seeing normal not performing for a tgc video john Patton!
I will say my one disagreement is that I think the MOA thing on a rifle can be over 1moa if the gun is under 600 bucks. Cuz those guns are clearly not serious use guns.
In every other respect, I’m completely in agreement.
There's no such thing as an inaccurate handgun at 10 yards unless it's keyholing. Even then, there can't be an inaccurate gun at that range. It's all the shooter at that distance. It's not the gun being inaccurate. That range is practically holding it against the target and pulling the trigger
Jon is spitting fire. Love it.
Holy shit, Jon Patton dropping F bombs
The people in the comments complaining about swearing would faint if they were ever on a machine shop floor, listening to the colourful language of the people who make the very guns they buy.
A bunch of companies got bullied for making unreliable/crappy guns online for years and then turned it around, making very high VALUE (Quality/Price) products. There's no reason the others can't do the same.
🇺🇸
Fellowship of the gun
Jon Patton for President!!!!
I’ve been saying AR15s need to come with irons. You are not receiving a complete system.
I like this dude