One thing that has always hurt Cleveland’s rapid transit ridership is the fact that the only station for downtown is in the western end of the central business district. Plans for subways always went nowhere so the Cleveland lines were stuck using a route downtown that bypasses alot of potential traffic generators.
....I'm gonna start kicking benches in your honor. The Forest Hills neighborhood of Queens in NYC also comes to mind when it comes to a planned North American "garden city". Margaret Sage, the founder of the Russell Sage Foundation (named after her husband who was a railroad executive and one of the richest Americans of all-time; he was once a director of Western Union telegraph, the consolidated elevated railroads in Manhattan, the Wabash Railway, St. Louis and Pacific, Missouri Pacific Railroad, Missouri-Kansas-Texas Railroad, Delaware, Lackawanna and Western Railroad and the St. Louis-San Francisco Railway), bought 142 acres of land in 1908 for "Forest Hills Gardens". Detroit-born Grosvenor Atterbury, who also worked on Pittsburgh's Fulton Building and Acadia National Park's carriage paths, bridges, and gatehouses, was given the commission to design Forest Hills Gardens. It was inspired by the model of the garden communities of England, with its own inn, garage, and post office, and also included narrow, winding roads to limit through traffic. So there are many Tudor-style homes in the neighborhood! And when the LIRR station opened in 1911, it was designed to fit in as well, a brick courtyard, a clock tower, and arch-filled underpasses. The LIRR station and former trolleys helped spur development, and now several local and express buses and four subway stations (the four stations opened in 1936) also serve the neighborhood! For Forest Hills, Atterbury developed an innovative construction method! Each house was built from approximately 170 standardized precast concrete panels, fabricated off-site and assembled by crane. The system was sophisticated even by modern standards, as panels were cast with integral hollow insulation chambers. Casting formwork incorporated an internal sleeve, allowing molds to be "broken" before concrete had completely set; and panels were moved to the site in only two operations (formwork to truck and truck to crane). Atterbury's system influenced the work of mid-1920s European modern architects like Ernst May, who used panelized prefab concrete systems in a number of celebrated experimental housing projects in Frankfurt.
More Cleveland facts: The former St. Luke's Hospital was designed in the Georgian Revival style by the Cleveland-based architectural firm Hubbell & Benes, who also designed different things around the Cleveland area like West Side Market, Central YMCA, 75 Public Square (once the headquarters for the Cleveland Electric Illuminating Company; which eventually came under the control of Centerior in 1986 and Centerior merged to become FirstEnergy in 1997), Cleveland Museum of Art, Shaker Heights High School, Wade Memorial Chapel (honors Western Union co-founder Jeptha Wade), and the Ohio Bell/AT&T Huron Road Building! The firm that designed the city's Severance Hall was Walker and Weeks who also worked on Indianapolis's World War Memorial, Cleveland Public Library, Cleveland's since demolished Municipal Stadium, and Cleveland's Hope Memorial Bridge (the bridge's Guardians of Traffic is where the name for the Cleveland Guardians came from). Public Square by Tower City was part of the Connecticut Land Company's (never forget the tale of Long Connecticut and CT's true destiny) original plan for the city, which were overseen by Moses Cleaveland in the 1790s. Cleveland was modelled after New England, and the square is signature of the layout for early New England towns. In 1879, it became the first street in the world to be lit with electric streetlights, thanks to arc lamps designed by Cleveland native Charles F. Brush! The Cuyahoga River once caught on fire at least FOURTEEN times! When it did in 1969, it helped spur the American environmental movement, resulting in amendments extending the Clean Water Act, Great Lakes Water Quality Agreement, and the creation of the federal Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the Ohio Environmental Protection Agency (OEPA). Because of the incredible effort, the American Rivers conservation association listed it as their River of the Year in 2019! Along with being the first city with electrified public spaces, Cleveland has had lots of other interesting firsts, too! These have included the opening of the first indoor shopping mall (The Arcade) in 1890, the first automobile sale in the US in 1898; and the first blood transfusion in 1905. In 1967, Cleveland was also the first major US city to elect an African-American mayor when it elected Carl B. Stokes. While the character of Superman comes from another planet, the concept of the Man of Steel comes right from Cleveland, Ohio. Co-creators Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster are from the city, and the story goes that Superman was created at Siegel’s house at 10622 Kimberly Ave. in the early 1930s. Cleveland didn’t invent rock music, but back in the 1950s, the term “rock and roll” was coined by local disc jockey Alan Freed on his Moondog Rock and Roll Radio Hour. The very first rock concert, the “Moondog Coronation Ball,” was held in Cleveland in 1952! This is why Cleveland was selected as the location of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame
Important to mention that the brothers implemented restrictive covenants and guidelines for Shaker Heights called Shaker Standards, that also unfortunately barred African-American and Jewish people starting in 1925. This restriction against them continued until 1948 when the US Supreme Court ruled religious and racial covenants unenforceable. As mentioned, the brothers built the Terminal Tower at Tower City (designed by Graham, Anderson, Probst & White; a Chicago firm that was the successor to Daniel Burnham's firm) as a plan to use it as the hub for all of Cleveland. The plan was to build more streetcar suburbs and connect them to the tower, run all long-distance trains there as well (they owned a railroad as well, the Nickel Plate Road, they only wanted it so they could use its route to the new terminal), and the local streetcars. But as you brought up, using the Cleveland Union Terminal as a hub came crashing down when the Great Depression happened, the brothers died, and of course all the automobile usage after WWII. Terminal Tower was the second-tallest building in the world when it was completed in 1927 and opened in 1930, it remained the tallest building in the world outside of NYC until the completion of the main building of Moscow State University in Moscow in 1953 and stood as the tallest building in North America outside of New York City from its completion in 1927 until 1964 when Prudential Tower in Boston defeated it. It remained the tallest in Ohio until the Key Tower was completed in 1991. Besides Terminal Tower, the Graham, Anderson, Probst & White firm also worked on Philly's Suburban Station, Chicago's Field Museum of Natural History, Chicago's Merchandise Mart, Philly's 30th Street Station, Chicago's Wrigley Building, Chicago's Shedd Aquarium, and finished Chicago Union Station in 1925 after Daniel Burnham passed in 1912. Cleveland Union Terminal was never particularly popular with the railroads. It required deviating from the quicker route along Lake Erie. As the city would not allow trains to operate under steam power near the downtown area, trains were forced to switch from steam to electric power at a suburban rail yard when heading inbound and then reverse on the way out at another yard. As a result, some lines began to bypass the station entirely, heading along the lake route, and some trains stopped serving the city altogether (like New York Central's Lake Shore Limited and the New England States).
Fascinating and all very germane. I felt I learnt a lot from your comment. And I had always been intrigued by what appeared to be a very slightly bizarre venerable Art-Deco-era skyscraper in all images of Cleveland ...
Love how this is a premiere! I was scrolling the tube and found this pop up at the top when I refreshed. Great rundown on the Cleveland transit system! What a unique light rail network and it’s a shame that the network was underbuilt and underserved.
Great video! Love the in-depth historical overview of the light rail system and how its history both contributed to and doomed the line as it exists today. Also thanks for the shoutout!
Well this is a lesson in economics. As manufacturing left the rust belt so too did everything else. No demand for the city becomes no demand for transit
Sure looks like there are plenty of great opportunities to live an an affordable car-free/light life in Cleveland without the hassle of crowds. Sounds like a win-win-win.
This is the second Cleveland Light Rail video I watched so far. Which wouldn't be strange but until recently I only had a vague idea where Cleveland even is.
@@Token_Nerd If by "the guy", you mean the really doofusy middle-aged dude that recognized Mr Whale and then went on camera; then yes. That was me. I apologize for any triggering that caused.
@@davidroddini1512 As I am an old man, that original comment may have gone past you. The last two sentences were a quote from the movie "The Jerk" from the 70s.
I think the bigger reason for its low ridership is the decline of Downtown Cleveland as a job center and shopping area. I understand the Rapid had fairly heavy ridership and high frequencies into the 70s and 80s, it just dwindled as the region sprawled and fewer went Downtown. Plus even the neighborhoods between Shaker Heights and Downtown have largely reverted to fields such as around 79th. Cleveland, like many midwest cities, lost its transit riding culture as time went on. Those people that rode the system in its heyday are long gone and now its car oriented Boomers thru Millennials.
Cleveland also was an early adopter of urban freeways, with the innerbelt and shoreway predating the interstate highway system. You can see evidence in the design of these freeways, such as the infamous dead man's curve where the innerbelt merges into the shoreway.
True, downtown Cleve used to be the place to be, especially during the Christmas holiday season. Now? not so much, especially when many have a variety of stores in their community. Downtown is really a bad joke, and really thins out heading east after leaving E 9th Street.
@@zythr9999 I visited recently and loved Downtown Cleveland but you could tell its not what it was even 30-40 years ago (and certainly 70-80 years ago). Sure it's been cleaned up with museums, stadiums and restaurants but now it's a rarer visit special occasion place "to go out". Even a generation ago, its where people still visited daily for office jobs and downtown shopping at Tower City and the department stores downtown, with many taking the Rapid. Unfortunately this is becoming more and more of the case nationwide, even SF, Portland and Seattle now.
From what you say in the video, a stand-out factor is this city's unusual decline in population, thus the RTA becoming a less attractive alternative to driving over decades, rather than more. Also, surely reviving the "Shaker" name and accordingly, making the cars bump and slide arould like an old wooden-track roller coaster, would attract more riders!😂
back in the 70s and 80s the blue and green lines were way more used. In fact, during rush hour, they ran double trains and they were pretty packed. Cleveland losing several several large downtown companies along with a decline in population, started the decline in blue and green line ridership.
totally agree. transit really isn't as useful and car free or carless is totally unrealistic for America. it really needs to stick to specific corridors and provide a backbone complemented by feeder services to justify the investment.
This line was built precisely to sell luxury homes in an exclusive planned community. And it worked! In the 1920s, Shaker Heights boomed, as you can tell from the big homes along Shaker Blvd. The line has continued working. Out of the hundreds of interurban lines built in the US, this is one of only three that are still running. True, ridership is down, but that's because Cleveland's population has been declining alarmingly. Cleveland has gone from the fifth largest city in the country down to the second largest city in Ohio. The heavy rail red line, that goes to the airport as well as much of the city, is not doing any better.
To show how neglected the RTA rail division is, the city of Shaker Heights had an advertising campaign a few years ago. The advertising copy made no mention whatsoever about the existing of the Blue and Green Lines. I brought this up, in writing, at a meeting of RTA's Board of Trustees. One of the trustees was the mayor of Shaker Heights. I was told by an attendee that he looked as if he was going to blow up!
As you mentioned the future arrival of the new rail vehicles. There will be direct routing on both lines to the airport. Although this won’t be the grand savior of the Shaker Rapid lines it will definitely benefit them as the airport is pretty much only car Accessible from the south eastern suburbs. 😊
It is a real shame and all that the heavy rail trains are going away…but they aren’t operating on third rail, so it’s no great real loss. The new cars look slick AF! Will they order enough to supplant the entire fleet of the RTA or just to replace Cleveland’s Red Line Trains?
I rode on the red line almost a year ago and the vehicles where in rough shape. It reminded me of being on a boat with how uneven the ride quality was. Probably didn't help that the seat I sat on practically imploded as I sat on it (it didn't break, but I really sunk into it).
One thing you have learned about Ohio in general is there not known for making a smartest decision when it comes to transit if they even want to have any at all that be in that state it’s all cars, cars, cars, cars, cars
"A developed country is not a place where the poor have cars. It's where the rich use public transportation." - Gustavo Petro, mayor of Bogotá, Colombia
If you're ever in the northeast Ohio area again you should come visit J&L narrow gauge railroad. It's the only place I know of with a solar powered semaphore signal.
11:30 Cleveland is also pancake flat, while Pittsburgh has almost no flat land. The light rail in Pittsburgh is actually necessary to transit navigate the hilliest parts of the urban area, and physically could not all be bustituted away. This is not true of Cleveland.
So, true on your prespective on why transit fails - Look at Washington, DC they trains and buses but you see buses run empty non-peak hours and the cost of taking the train from Bethesda to downtown DC - costs about the same or more than driving downtown and paying for parking
with all that said we really need to have all of the above solutions roads, & transit also unspoken least in DC area is safety on the Metro or Buses - to get people back on trains and buses like pre-pandemic they need to address the - safety issue
One counter point to your density and demand argument: there are ways to sidestep this with a very strong downtown core that is dense, has expensive parking, and limited driving opportunities (I'm looking at you oil capital of Canada, Calgary and most Australian cities like Sydney with very busy trains). You can also sidestep this by putting crazy attention on bus connections a la TTC and SCBCTA (we Canadians at it again) where you run frequent buses to funnel people to rapid transit and then force everyone to take rapid transit for the final leg to core nodes like the central business district. These approaches require economic and operating conditions that a US rustbelt city may not have: 1. Strong, dense employment nodes people got to get to, whether the resource company headquarters of Calgary or the mix of political, educational, and economic destinations of other major cities. Cleveland is not a state capital nor a focus city for a certain industry. Limited and thus expensive (thanks microeconomists) parking is a byproduct of this. All the Australian state capitals have this (governments need lots of offices for bureaucrats) 2. Lots of frequency. Toronto developed this for political reasons: back in the days of Metropolitan Toronto, the suburban lower-tier cities didn't want to pour money into regional services (transit and law enforcement and public works like water) but only get small service back out. So they pushed for a TTC flat fare, and more importantly, a crazy amount of service even in the suburbs. Hence why to this day, some of the busiest bus routes on this continent run on roads serving a mishmash of strip malls, low-density single-family housing, denser public housing, and now more recent higher density development. Cleveland may not have the political will and economic funding to run lots of service to drive this sort of spoke and feeder system. 3. Your periodic reminder that the US interstate highway system has no parallel in the dominions of His Majesty, where the states and provinces of Australia and Canada had to do highways themselves, so typically did more prioritization then the US's free federal cash falling from the sky.
11:20 I disagree. I don’t think the be all and end all is TOD. Of course transit has to go places people want to go but I don’t think density is the backbone of what keeps a transit system’s ridership high. The service is far more important than TOD. An asphalt laid station will still see riders if the trains are frequent & fast enough, but nobody will take an hourly streetcar or bus.
I'm From Pittsburgh born and raised and you should come here on St. Patricks Day or During a Hockey, Football or baseball game. Thats when our light Rail Trains Are Packed that you sometimes have to wait for another Rail Car. So of corse we get more rider ship here then Clevland
can we just note how much worse the modern vehicles look compared to the old trolley... and it's not like it's a particularly fast or long line requiring full interurban vehicles to run on it to make it viable... I would say, compared to the rather impressive urban development around it, the line is just build to look bleak and impoverished... reminds me of some network in a less developed former communist state... somewhere maybe in the Balkans or maybe some of the worse lines in the former USSR.
Transit is as ‘useful’ as ever. Precisely BECAUSE so many people here own cars. If we’re serious about addressing climate change there is no other option. Not to mention the fiscal problems with low density sprawl. These low density suburbs will have to thicken up once we run out of money for highways and gas/ Evs are too expensive.
10:35 Aww don’t go dissing the Tide like that… (they’re actually considering expanding the network, and the City of Virginia Beach can’t get in the way again because they are looking to expand in other directions) But in all seriousness, wonderful video! It makes me a bit sad that the Red Line is being converted to light rail (though I understand why), but hopefully they do it in a way where, if population suddenly booms in the future, they could convert it back to heavy rail!
@@AverytheCubanAmerican VA Beach rejected it twice, unfortunately. Now Norfolk is looking to expand north (at least a little bit) towards the naval station, and there’s a project underway considering an expansion south to Chesapeake!
I always did wish the RTA had more riders, I go to Cleveland sometimes to railfan and ride on the lines and watching NS but it's kinda underwhelming fr, I hope maybe there will be a change one day
So idk if you caught it but at the Shaker Square junction the operator has to pull up to a call box and insert some sort of key card in order to switch the track I believe. Its a very strange/unique signaling system
I think ridership really of LRT in cities should be seen in relation to the overall population growth or decline of a city.. Naturally 8/10 fastest growing cities in North America are Canadian and most have really well established rapid transit systems with relatively healthy ridership #'s especially on a per mile basis which is the best measure of how well used a system is... Hence when you Wikipedia the list of LRT systems Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa are near the top and places like Cleveland or St. Louis are near the bottom... Until the population decline reverses and a flood of new citizens moves in that won't change... Thankfully with climate change afoot moving North to escape the Southern heat is probably going to be a thing especially when you compare real estate prices... Ohio houses can sometimes be bought for less than a basic Tesla... Meanwhile Texas, Florida and California? Record high prices...
Not many people go downtown . These trains roll empty all day . I live walking distance from the Green line and have ridden it once in 30 years . Our sales tax is 8.75 % to pay for a bunch of nothing . No wonder the sane people leave here
While I completely agree with your argument, I personally rather like Cleveland's rail system. The ride past those mansion-like homes is beautiful, and there's a great diner right at the Shaker Square station.
I could've sworn that one of those large residential houses reminded me of Home Alone. It's a damn shame to have a light rail system that gets ignored.😢
I was like, "ooh! New CLE footage just an hour ago!" Then I saw the denuded landscape. "Hmmm... must've been stuck at the Fotomat." Then I saw the dates on the Red Line replacement service flyer. You filmed this a year and a half earlier? Mrowr. Next time, come see our fair city when everything is verdant. We have a ton of Olmsted parkland.
While the development on the line is definitely spread out, I have to say, I'm glad the Rapid at least survived beyond the 1950s, especially in the face of that freeway proposal. It always makes me happy to see legacy transit systems still operating. Oh, also, minor personal story. I've got a co-worker from Cleveland, and I was telling them one time that the only thing from Cleveland I'm familiar with is the RTA, and they were pleasantly surprised I knew about it. I think I was the first person they'd spoken to since moving to New Jersey who knew of the system. So thats fun.
I don’t personally care a whole lot whether it’s convenient for people. Driving is screwing up the atmosphere, and it’s killing people who dared across the street in alarming numbers. If we stop subsidizing peoples driving lifestyle in the way that we are now, things will rapidly change. If only the political Will were there. For everyone to just drive around in single occupancy, vehicles is not viable, and needs to stop.
It will still be heavy rail. Rolling stock doesn't define mode. The red line will still be on dedicated ROW, fully grade separated (unlike some L lines in Chicago), and have high floor level boarding. That sounds like heavy rail to me.
weren't you the one that was also triggered on Miles's Green and Blue Line video when they mentioned this? Light-rail is not a bad thing, bro is mad over nothing. The Boy who cried heavy rail
It's the same rolling stock that MUNI uses, light-rail can still be high-floor like the AnsaldoBreda P2550 in LA, and light-rail can still be grade-separated
One thing that has always hurt Cleveland’s rapid transit ridership is the fact that the only station for downtown is in the western end of the central business district. Plans for subways always went nowhere so the Cleveland lines were stuck using a route downtown that bypasses alot of potential traffic generators.
Cleveland RTA free trolley loops back to E 9th Street "traffic generators".
....I'm gonna start kicking benches in your honor. The Forest Hills neighborhood of Queens in NYC also comes to mind when it comes to a planned North American "garden city". Margaret Sage, the founder of the Russell Sage Foundation (named after her husband who was a railroad executive and one of the richest Americans of all-time; he was once a director of Western Union telegraph, the consolidated elevated railroads in Manhattan, the Wabash Railway, St. Louis and Pacific, Missouri Pacific Railroad, Missouri-Kansas-Texas Railroad, Delaware, Lackawanna and Western Railroad and the St. Louis-San Francisco Railway), bought 142 acres of land in 1908 for "Forest Hills Gardens". Detroit-born Grosvenor Atterbury, who also worked on Pittsburgh's Fulton Building and Acadia National Park's carriage paths, bridges, and gatehouses, was given the commission to design Forest Hills Gardens. It was inspired by the model of the garden communities of England, with its own inn, garage, and post office, and also included narrow, winding roads to limit through traffic. So there are many Tudor-style homes in the neighborhood! And when the LIRR station opened in 1911, it was designed to fit in as well, a brick courtyard, a clock tower, and arch-filled underpasses. The LIRR station and former trolleys helped spur development, and now several local and express buses and four subway stations (the four stations opened in 1936) also serve the neighborhood!
For Forest Hills, Atterbury developed an innovative construction method! Each house was built from approximately 170 standardized precast concrete panels, fabricated off-site and assembled by crane. The system was sophisticated even by modern standards, as panels were cast with integral hollow insulation chambers. Casting formwork incorporated an internal sleeve, allowing molds to be "broken" before concrete had completely set; and panels were moved to the site in only two operations (formwork to truck and truck to crane). Atterbury's system influenced the work of mid-1920s European modern architects like Ernst May, who used panelized prefab concrete systems in a number of celebrated experimental housing projects in Frankfurt.
I would appreciate that : P
More Cleveland facts: The former St. Luke's Hospital was designed in the Georgian Revival style by the Cleveland-based architectural firm Hubbell & Benes, who also designed different things around the Cleveland area like West Side Market, Central YMCA, 75 Public Square (once the headquarters for the Cleveland Electric Illuminating Company; which eventually came under the control of Centerior in 1986 and Centerior merged to become FirstEnergy in 1997), Cleveland Museum of Art, Shaker Heights High School, Wade Memorial Chapel (honors Western Union co-founder Jeptha Wade), and the Ohio Bell/AT&T Huron Road Building! The firm that designed the city's Severance Hall was Walker and Weeks who also worked on Indianapolis's World War Memorial, Cleveland Public Library, Cleveland's since demolished Municipal Stadium, and Cleveland's Hope Memorial Bridge (the bridge's Guardians of Traffic is where the name for the Cleveland Guardians came from). Public Square by Tower City was part of the Connecticut Land Company's (never forget the tale of Long Connecticut and CT's true destiny) original plan for the city, which were overseen by Moses Cleaveland in the 1790s. Cleveland was modelled after New England, and the square is signature of the layout for early New England towns. In 1879, it became the first street in the world to be lit with electric streetlights, thanks to arc lamps designed by Cleveland native Charles F. Brush! The Cuyahoga River once caught on fire at least FOURTEEN times! When it did in 1969, it helped spur the American environmental movement, resulting in amendments extending the Clean Water Act, Great Lakes Water Quality Agreement, and the creation of the federal Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the Ohio Environmental Protection Agency (OEPA). Because of the incredible effort, the American Rivers conservation association listed it as their River of the Year in 2019!
Along with being the first city with electrified public spaces, Cleveland has had lots of other interesting firsts, too! These have included the opening of the first indoor shopping mall (The Arcade) in 1890, the first automobile sale in the US in 1898; and the first blood transfusion in 1905. In 1967, Cleveland was also the first major US city to elect an African-American mayor when it elected Carl B. Stokes. While the character of Superman comes from another planet, the concept of the Man of Steel comes right from Cleveland, Ohio. Co-creators Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster are from the city, and the story goes that Superman was created at Siegel’s house at 10622 Kimberly Ave. in the early 1930s. Cleveland didn’t invent rock music, but back in the 1950s, the term “rock and roll” was coined by local disc jockey Alan Freed on his Moondog Rock and Roll Radio Hour. The very first rock concert, the “Moondog Coronation Ball,” was held in Cleveland in 1952! This is why Cleveland was selected as the location of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame
Important to mention that the brothers implemented restrictive covenants and guidelines for Shaker Heights called Shaker Standards, that also unfortunately barred African-American and Jewish people starting in 1925. This restriction against them continued until 1948 when the US Supreme Court ruled religious and racial covenants unenforceable. As mentioned, the brothers built the Terminal Tower at Tower City (designed by Graham, Anderson, Probst & White; a Chicago firm that was the successor to Daniel Burnham's firm) as a plan to use it as the hub for all of Cleveland. The plan was to build more streetcar suburbs and connect them to the tower, run all long-distance trains there as well (they owned a railroad as well, the Nickel Plate Road, they only wanted it so they could use its route to the new terminal), and the local streetcars. But as you brought up, using the Cleveland Union Terminal as a hub came crashing down when the Great Depression happened, the brothers died, and of course all the automobile usage after WWII.
Terminal Tower was the second-tallest building in the world when it was completed in 1927 and opened in 1930, it remained the tallest building in the world outside of NYC until the completion of the main building of Moscow State University in Moscow in 1953 and stood as the tallest building in North America outside of New York City from its completion in 1927 until 1964 when Prudential Tower in Boston defeated it. It remained the tallest in Ohio until the Key Tower was completed in 1991. Besides Terminal Tower, the Graham, Anderson, Probst & White firm also worked on Philly's Suburban Station, Chicago's Field Museum of Natural History, Chicago's Merchandise Mart, Philly's 30th Street Station, Chicago's Wrigley Building, Chicago's Shedd Aquarium, and finished Chicago Union Station in 1925 after Daniel Burnham passed in 1912. Cleveland Union Terminal was never particularly popular with the railroads. It required deviating from the quicker route along Lake Erie. As the city would not allow trains to operate under steam power near the downtown area, trains were forced to switch from steam to electric power at a suburban rail yard when heading inbound and then reverse on the way out at another yard. As a result, some lines began to bypass the station entirely, heading along the lake route, and some trains stopped serving the city altogether (like New York Central's Lake Shore Limited and the New England States).
Fascinating and all very germane. I felt I learnt a lot from your comment. And I had always been intrigued by what appeared to be a very slightly bizarre venerable Art-Deco-era skyscraper in all images of Cleveland ...
Love how this is a premiere! I was scrolling the tube and found this pop up at the top when I refreshed. Great rundown on the Cleveland transit system! What a unique light rail network and it’s a shame that the network was underbuilt and underserved.
Great video! Love the in-depth historical overview of the light rail system and how its history both contributed to and doomed the line as it exists today. Also thanks for the shoutout!
You can’t escape me ha!
4:20 "Blue is the best color"
That is correct!
Seconded
Well this is a lesson in economics. As manufacturing left the rust belt so too did everything else. No demand for the city becomes no demand for transit
Sure looks like there are plenty of great opportunities to live an an affordable car-free/light life in Cleveland without the hassle of crowds. Sounds like a win-win-win.
This is the second Cleveland Light Rail video I watched so far. Which wouldn't be strange but until recently I only had a vague idea where Cleveland even is.
I'M FINALLY ON CAMERA!!! This is the type of spontaneous publicity that makes people! Things are going to start happening to me now!
Are you the guy?
@@Token_Nerd If by "the guy", you mean the really doofusy middle-aged dude that recognized Mr Whale and then went on camera; then yes. That was me. I apologize for any triggering that caused.
@@jimspies2775 Lmao, nah you caused no triggering whatsoever. Glad to see you here!
Well Jim it worked (kinda) I was *totally* going to follow your channel. But alas, there’s nothing on it.
@@davidroddini1512 As I am an old man, that original comment may have gone past you. The last two sentences were a quote from the movie "The Jerk" from the 70s.
I think the bigger reason for its low ridership is the decline of Downtown Cleveland as a job center and shopping area. I understand the Rapid had fairly heavy ridership and high frequencies into the 70s and 80s, it just dwindled as the region sprawled and fewer went Downtown. Plus even the neighborhoods between Shaker Heights and Downtown have largely reverted to fields such as around 79th. Cleveland, like many midwest cities, lost its transit riding culture as time went on. Those people that rode the system in its heyday are long gone and now its car oriented Boomers thru Millennials.
Cleveland also was an early adopter of urban freeways, with the innerbelt and shoreway predating the interstate highway system. You can see evidence in the design of these freeways, such as the infamous dead man's curve where the innerbelt merges into the shoreway.
True, downtown Cleve used to be the place to be, especially during the Christmas holiday season. Now? not so much, especially when many have a variety of stores in their community. Downtown is really a bad joke, and really thins out heading east after leaving E 9th Street.
@@zythr9999 I visited recently and loved Downtown Cleveland but you could tell its not what it was even 30-40 years ago (and certainly 70-80 years ago). Sure it's been cleaned up with museums, stadiums and restaurants but now it's a rarer visit special occasion place "to go out". Even a generation ago, its where people still visited daily for office jobs and downtown shopping at Tower City and the department stores downtown, with many taking the Rapid. Unfortunately this is becoming more and more of the case nationwide, even SF, Portland and Seattle now.
@@Ponchoed Very true, though in downtown Cleveland's case, it is more for sports then anything else.
From what you say in the video, a stand-out factor is this city's unusual decline in population, thus the RTA becoming a less attractive alternative to driving over decades, rather than more.
Also, surely reviving the "Shaker" name and accordingly, making the cars bump and slide arould like an old wooden-track roller coaster, would attract more riders!😂
The road looked like it was quite empty too
back in the 70s and 80s the blue and green lines were way more used. In fact, during rush hour, they ran double trains and they were pretty packed. Cleveland losing several several large downtown companies along with a decline in population, started the decline in blue and green line ridership.
In high school in the 80s, I would commute to my weekend job at Tower City on the Rapid. I generally called it the Slow.
@@LemmyC11 haha
totally agree. transit really isn't as useful and car free or carless is totally unrealistic for America. it really needs to stick to specific corridors and provide a backbone complemented by feeder services to justify the investment.
This line was built precisely to sell luxury homes in an exclusive planned community. And it worked! In the 1920s, Shaker Heights boomed, as you can tell from the big homes along Shaker Blvd. The line has continued working. Out of the hundreds of interurban lines built in the US, this is one of only three that are still running. True, ridership is down, but that's because Cleveland's population has been declining alarmingly. Cleveland has gone from the fifth largest city in the country down to the second largest city in Ohio. The heavy rail red line, that goes to the airport as well as much of the city, is not doing any better.
To show how neglected the RTA rail division is, the city of Shaker Heights had an advertising campaign a few years ago. The advertising copy made no mention whatsoever about the existing of the Blue and Green Lines. I brought this up, in writing, at a meeting of RTA's Board of Trustees. One of the trustees was the mayor of Shaker Heights. I was told by an attendee that he looked as if he was going to blow up!
As you mentioned the future arrival of the new rail vehicles. There will be direct routing on both lines to the airport. Although this won’t be the grand savior of the Shaker Rapid lines it will definitely benefit them as the airport is pretty much only car
Accessible from the south eastern suburbs. 😊
guys i think classy whale doesn't condone kicking public infrastructure
But I do
It is a real shame and all that the heavy rail trains are going away…but they aren’t operating on third rail, so it’s no great real loss. The new cars look slick AF! Will they order enough to supplant the entire fleet of the RTA or just to replace Cleveland’s Red Line Trains?
They're running them everywhere! That'll in theory allow for direct airport trains from Shaker Heights
I rode on the red line almost a year ago and the vehicles where in rough shape. It reminded me of being on a boat with how uneven the ride quality was. Probably didn't help that the seat I sat on practically imploded as I sat on it (it didn't break, but I really sunk into it).
Yes, they'll order enough to replace all current rail cars and can run on both green, blue and red lines.
One thing you have learned about Ohio in general is there not known for making a smartest decision when it comes to transit if they even want to have any at all that be in that state it’s all cars, cars, cars, cars, cars
Where did he find the old rapid schedules?
"A developed country is not a place where the poor have cars. It's where the rich use public transportation."
- Gustavo Petro, mayor of Bogotá, Colombia
If you're ever in the northeast Ohio area again you should come visit J&L narrow gauge railroad. It's the only place I know of with a solar powered semaphore signal.
11:30 Cleveland is also pancake flat, while Pittsburgh has almost no flat land. The light rail in Pittsburgh is actually necessary to transit navigate the hilliest parts of the urban area, and physically could not all be bustituted away. This is not true of Cleveland.
So, true on your prespective on why transit fails - Look at Washington, DC they trains and buses but you see buses run empty non-peak hours and the cost of taking the train from Bethesda to downtown DC - costs about the same or more than driving downtown and paying for parking
with all that said we really need to have all of the above solutions roads, & transit also unspoken least in DC area is safety on the Metro or Buses - to get people back on trains and buses like pre-pandemic they need to address the - safety issue
Is there is any information about where the heavy rail coaches will go when new light rail transit arrives at the Cleveland RTA?
Yes, they'll be eventually scrapped. The redesigned stations won't allow the current rail cars to be used on them
Did Walter made a fucking Monogatari reference?
MY MAN.
He told me it was a reference but I didn't know what it was for 😂
@@ClassyWhale Dude I've told you it's an ononoki reference like 50 times lmao
And yes I did.
There are actually 2 anime references in this video.
Great video!
But Classy Whale, aren't there door open buttons on Amtrak that are designed to be kicked?
@@djpetesake 😳
@@ClassyWhale He got you there
What are the headways? 15-20 mins? or is it really more like commuter rail at 30+ mins?
30 mins on branches!
One counter point to your density and demand argument: there are ways to sidestep this with a very strong downtown core that is dense, has expensive parking, and limited driving opportunities (I'm looking at you oil capital of Canada, Calgary and most Australian cities like Sydney with very busy trains). You can also sidestep this by putting crazy attention on bus connections a la TTC and SCBCTA (we Canadians at it again) where you run frequent buses to funnel people to rapid transit and then force everyone to take rapid transit for the final leg to core nodes like the central business district.
These approaches require economic and operating conditions that a US rustbelt city may not have:
1. Strong, dense employment nodes people got to get to, whether the resource company headquarters of Calgary or the mix of political, educational, and economic destinations of other major cities. Cleveland is not a state capital nor a focus city for a certain industry. Limited and thus expensive (thanks microeconomists) parking is a byproduct of this. All the Australian state capitals have this (governments need lots of offices for bureaucrats)
2. Lots of frequency. Toronto developed this for political reasons: back in the days of Metropolitan Toronto, the suburban lower-tier cities didn't want to pour money into regional services (transit and law enforcement and public works like water) but only get small service back out. So they pushed for a TTC flat fare, and more importantly, a crazy amount of service even in the suburbs. Hence why to this day, some of the busiest bus routes on this continent run on roads serving a mishmash of strip malls, low-density single-family housing, denser public housing, and now more recent higher density development. Cleveland may not have the political will and economic funding to run lots of service to drive this sort of spoke and feeder system.
3. Your periodic reminder that the US interstate highway system has no parallel in the dominions of His Majesty, where the states and provinces of Australia and Canada had to do highways themselves, so typically did more prioritization then the US's free federal cash falling from the sky.
@@jacktattersall9457 these are all great points but when you said his majesty it made me sad... RIP Queen Elizabeth 😭
Great video, loved the end lol lol.
Cleveland is often forgotten, and it shows.
lol
You know, kicking public infostructure does seem like a fantastic way to test the stability. What a great idea!
@@alk61695 NOOOOOO
@@ClassyWhale but what happens if someone sits down and it breaks? I'd rather kick it first than fall while sitting.
@@alk61695 As a structural enginerd, I approve of this message
@@Token_Nerd thank you.
The Cleveland light rail is pretty much a joke of a rail transit system. Ohio is a strange place both in terms of geography and politics.
11:20 I disagree. I don’t think the be all and end all is TOD. Of course transit has to go places people want to go but I don’t think density is the backbone of what keeps a transit system’s ridership high. The service is far more important than TOD. An asphalt laid station will still see riders if the trains are frequent & fast enough, but nobody will take an hourly streetcar or bus.
At 3:39 that house kinda looks like The Home Alone House in Winnetka Illinois.
I knew that I wasn't the only one who thought that.🤣
I'm From Pittsburgh born and raised and you should come here on St. Patricks Day or During a Hockey, Football or baseball game. Thats when our light Rail Trains Are Packed that you sometimes have to wait for another Rail Car. So of corse we get more rider ship here then Clevland
Wish they'd expand further East I'd definitely ride the rapid more. Only time I take it now is to go into little italy for the feast
can we just note how much worse the modern vehicles look compared to the old trolley... and it's not like it's a particularly fast or long line requiring full interurban vehicles to run on it to make it viable...
I would say, compared to the rather impressive urban development around it, the line is just build to look bleak and impoverished... reminds me of some network in a less developed former communist state... somewhere maybe in the Balkans or maybe some of the worse lines in the former USSR.
-COME AND LOOK AT BOTH OF OUR BUILDINGS
Now when does Classy Whale make a video with Jordan the tribal king?
I've never met him in person!
@@ClassyWhale He's in Miles's Amtrak Night Owl video.
10:13 Lol, so true.
Transit is as ‘useful’ as ever. Precisely BECAUSE so many people here own cars. If we’re serious about addressing climate change there is no other option. Not to mention the fiscal problems with low density sprawl. These low density suburbs will have to thicken up once we run out of money for highways and gas/ Evs are too expensive.
Wait, so isn't the moral of the story that the ridership is low because the Shakers didn't have children?
I’m so surprised that this channel *condones* kicking public infrastructure and even *promoted* it by showing so much of it in this video 😮
CLASSY WHALE MAKES IT VERY CLEAR THEY DO NO CONDONE THIS ASSININE BEHAVIOR
@@ClassyWhale Uh huh, so you say. But having not seen any negative repercussions, it looks like an endorsement to me. 😜
@@davidroddini1512 I mean a camera got wrecked
@@davidroddini1512 Help me
@@Token_Nerd What sort of help do you require?
Looks like the line goes slowly and loudly from one parking lot to another along a road
Cap when it’s Browns game like today or for any big event going on in downtown it’s a mess. Sometimes they have three cars.
Wow. San Francisco has retired their Breda light rail vehicles. They have 2 lines that run just, mostly, PCC cars.
They're still around tho...
What he's walter? No IMPOSSIBLE! I AM!
No you're not.
10:35 Aww don’t go dissing the Tide like that… (they’re actually considering expanding the network, and the City of Virginia Beach can’t get in the way again because they are looking to expand in other directions)
But in all seriousness, wonderful video! It makes me a bit sad that the Red Line is being converted to light rail (though I understand why), but hopefully they do it in a way where, if population suddenly booms in the future, they could convert it back to heavy rail!
Yeah tbf for the Tide, they wanted to expand to Virginia Beach! It was Virginia Beach who rejected it
@@AverytheCubanAmerican VA Beach rejected it twice, unfortunately. Now Norfolk is looking to expand north (at least a little bit) towards the naval station, and there’s a project underway considering an expansion south to Chesapeake!
9:40 You can’t escape St. Louis ⚜️😈🫶
I always did wish the RTA had more riders, I go to Cleveland sometimes to railfan and ride on the lines and watching NS but it's kinda underwhelming fr, I hope maybe there will be a change one day
Sadly, don't hold your breath. Cleveland is still a car dependent city and will probably stay that way for years to come.
Why does Walter look like he's about to talk about how Kylo Ren is totally shredded with an eight-pack?
What
What
So idk if you caught it but at the Shaker Square junction the operator has to pull up to a call box and insert some sort of key card in order to switch the track I believe. Its a very strange/unique signaling system
Very appropriate for Ohio. We are strange and unique 😂
The operator does it at E.79th street station as well.
2:07 The Green Line never went east of Green Road and never had "origins as an interurban".
Edit: I made it to 457. Never know what I missed
Classy Whale, you mentioned that Kezie(?) has a video about Cleveland’s TOD along the line, but I can’t for the life of me find it.
oh shoot I forgot to link it
also known as kezl
i have an idea of a transit video in my area but i don't know where or how to start it.....
I think ridership really of LRT in cities should be seen in relation to the overall population growth or decline of a city.. Naturally 8/10 fastest growing cities in North America are Canadian and most have really well established rapid transit systems with relatively healthy ridership #'s especially on a per mile basis which is the best measure of how well used a system is... Hence when you Wikipedia the list of LRT systems Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa are near the top and places like Cleveland or St. Louis are near the bottom... Until the population decline reverses and a flood of new citizens moves in that won't change... Thankfully with climate change afoot moving North to escape the Southern heat is probably going to be a thing especially when you compare real estate prices... Ohio houses can sometimes be bought for less than a basic Tesla... Meanwhile Texas, Florida and California? Record high prices...
Part of the issue is the business that moved over seas
Not many people go downtown . These trains roll empty all day . I live walking distance from the Green line and have ridden it once in 30 years . Our sales tax is 8.75 % to pay for a bunch of nothing . No wonder the sane people leave here
With few exceptions, there is really nothing to go downtown for. Visit downtown on a Sat and definitely a Sun and you'll see.
@@zythr9999 I know . I’ve lived here all my life
@@johndouglas5712 So have I😃
"Nobody Rides GCRTA"
Mr Classy Whale on board said light rail
smh this level of clickbait is unreal
One of us posted about "Light Fail"
The other one is Classy Whale
@@ClassyWhale Touche Mr. Whale
While I completely agree with your argument, I personally rather like Cleveland's rail system. The ride past those mansion-like homes is beautiful, and there's a great diner right at the Shaker Square station.
until you head west where the views (with a few exceptions) aren't that great.
I could've sworn that one of those large residential houses reminded me of Home Alone. It's a damn shame to have a light rail system that gets ignored.😢
I was like, "ooh! New CLE footage just an hour ago!" Then I saw the denuded landscape. "Hmmm... must've been stuck at the Fotomat."
Then I saw the dates on the Red Line replacement service flyer. You filmed this a year and a half earlier? Mrowr.
Next time, come see our fair city when everything is verdant. We have a ton of Olmsted parkland.
Yeah it took that long to get through development 😂
While the development on the line is definitely spread out, I have to say, I'm glad the Rapid at least survived beyond the 1950s, especially in the face of that freeway proposal. It always makes me happy to see legacy transit systems still operating.
Oh, also, minor personal story. I've got a co-worker from Cleveland, and I was telling them one time that the only thing from Cleveland I'm familiar with is the RTA, and they were pleasantly surprised I knew about it. I think I was the first person they'd spoken to since moving to New Jersey who knew of the system. So thats fun.
Are all stations wheelchair accessible? WTF is wrong with dude kicking benches? They should have extended the line from the airport to Lorain.
He’s can’t be in Cleveland againnn…….
Hey what gives I am a former grad student!
Please tell Walter that him doing that is annoying.
K
I don’t personally care a whole lot whether it’s convenient for people. Driving is screwing up the atmosphere, and it’s killing people who dared across the street in alarming numbers.
If we stop subsidizing peoples driving lifestyle in the way that we are now, things will rapidly change. If only the political Will were there.
For everyone to just drive around in single occupancy, vehicles is not viable, and needs to stop.
It will still be heavy rail. Rolling stock doesn't define mode. The red line will still be on dedicated ROW, fully grade separated (unlike some L lines in Chicago), and have high floor level boarding. That sounds like heavy rail to me.
weren't you the one that was also triggered on Miles's Green and Blue Line video when they mentioned this? Light-rail is not a bad thing, bro is mad over nothing. The Boy who cried heavy rail
It's the same rolling stock that MUNI uses, light-rail can still be high-floor like the AnsaldoBreda P2550 in LA, and light-rail can still be grade-separated
I don’t know if one other system that has vehicles like trams that is considered heavy rail.
That CARDS dude knows his stuff, have him on more videos. 🚈👍🏼
He was hugely helpful with the production side of this video as well!
Cap when it’s Browns game like today or for any big event going on in downtown it’s a mess. Sometimes they have three cars.