What is Limiting The Growth of Fighting Games?
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- Опубліковано 3 жов 2024
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The idea of scaling fighting games to the level of mainstream gaming and esports is quite appealing. And it’s not illusionary! The genre certainly deserves to be played more and talked about more. The question is - how to do this? We discuss the possible methods in this video on DashFight’s channel. We also highlight dangers on this path. Please dive into the topic and join the conversation.
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The fighting games genre has so much potential, we only need to find the proper way to unleash it. But this process shouldn’t be directed only to the mass audience. It seems like the ultimate secret is to balance hardcore traditions and modern trends of general gaming. Is the FGC ready for this?
Don't get where the idea that FGC has to have a certain "size audience." The FGC IS growing rapidly. Not fast enough for you? Why FGC need to match call of duty or any other game stats? I think this is a non-issue. Street Fighter developers say there goal is not to be the biggest game.
The game play loop of a fighting game is practice, losing and learning- winning being the product of delayed gratification. The causal audience wants to win and be rewarded at the skill floor of the game they purchase.
becoming competent in many fighting games feels like learning an instrument, which requires investing too much time for most people.
modern control options is s step in the right direction, but fgc growth will forever be capped by how many humans are WIRED to enjoy labbing combos.
the payoff isn’t great enough for the average gamer, and it never will be. thas why the creator of Guilty Gear said (paraphrasing) that he wishes he could remake his fighting game from the ground up (like what Smash Bros did), because the novelty of the genre wore off 30 years ago, and fighting game difficulty, online interactivity, player expression, and public perception of the genre itself are all out of step with what a mainstream gamer wants.
Get a big mainstream ip and make the game easy (very low execution/modern controls). I think the ip is key. Fighting games require too much of a time commitment for people to invest time in into an unknown property.
Both Tekken and Street Fighter have easy options but unfortunately you'll still get reckt using them. Maybe having easy option matches
As a long-time fighting game player, you will lose the core player base if you make them too easy. Fighting game players love execution and doing challenging combos. Players are already saying the games are getting too easy as it is.
@SuperJJParker I'm a garbage player compared to my peers but the easiest way to keep me away from wanting to play a Fighting Game is making them too easy. Especially if you don't have Motion Inputs in the game, I'm out.
Turn-based combat isn't outdated. You should have addressed that with your mentioning of older Final Fantasy games since you know those are the games people love. Not the modern ones. As for the fighting game side of things, you did a good job.
People love many things with or without a reason. Turn-based combat can be good, and there are great examples of it in Chained Echoes and Octopath 2, not the older FFs. And even then, they don't bring anything new to the table.
@@Lightfellow Only, there ARE turn-based games that bring new things to the table. Chained Echoes and Octopath Traveller 2 are not good examples for bringing new stuff to the table as they are intended to homage older turn-based titles. You want turn-based that does bring new things to the table? The Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel 3, 4 and Reverie.
bro it’s dead
@@venomsn4kee It's not. Tell me you literally know nothing without telling me you know literally nothing. Even Jon Snow knows more than you!
I doubt to say that people only love the turn based FF. That's just not correct. The people you say are a loud minority of the classic games from FF1 - 10 but the newer games also has their fans
Another obstacle I can name is the "Us vs Them" mindset, the casuals vs the competitives, the normies vs the fanatics, the devs vs the fans, and the sheer fanbases throwing cheap shots at one another.
It's not a team sport. It takes individual skill for individual success, and people aren't willing to be held accountable for their own efforts. That's what it comes down to.
chess is massive and has the same 1v1 aspect tho
@@poepertistdifferent because it’s about thinking rather than some kind of physical skill. Imo
@@isaacmoore1616 there's no thinking in fighting games?
Disagree - its the lack of meaningful tools to learn and get better within the game itself. Too much reliance on watching youtube tutorials, and figuring things out through trial and error.
@@poepertistchess had a millennium head start lol guess tekken will be mainstream in 3020
All you say is not true. What drive fighting games away from main stream is the stress of having all the fault of a lost on you. How you really have to learn the game and not being carry by other people until you get decent enough. You give games like LOL and DOTA as good exemples but much before they having all those cinematics and big prize pools they were already very popular. Actually those are games that don't have many things a fighting game has, like a story mode. They only have the normal way to play and thats it. oh, you can play against the pc. Yes, fighting games do that since arcades... For me playing mobas is ubareble. The buying itens sistem and the overal gameplay of slow advancing and towers and all that crap for me looks useles compelxity that only exists to artificially lenght the match. So saying that this is things that fighting games have to change makes no sense. Also mobas have zero visual flair. They don't look interesting at all. If you get someone that never saw a game in their lives and show a moba they will thing is a bunch of ants walking around. While the same person can clearly see that in a fighting game its two people fighting. MK is also not a very good comparison. It does everything to please the casual audience. and that don't do well. Its the best selling fighting game always, but the least played on tournaments and even online. Puting all your coins on realistic visual, gore and famous characters for people outside of the videogame sphere only makes a game that people buy to watch all fatalities, maybe play the campaign and thats it. And you don't want this. You want people fighting... or as you said, just make a beat'n up.
So what made mobas that look something so nerdy that would be unactrative to casuals something so big? Timing! They started to grow together with the social media. Mouth to mouth, free to play, online comunities. In and age that fighting games were basically dead and all the rage was the internet social stuff.
Now gighting games have grown again. not much but probably bigger than they ever were. There are for sure more people playing fighting games now than in the arcades golden age. Its a slow growth but Its really not much you can do. You can remove all the comands for specials and make a game with only famous personalities from the casual realm and still you would not be able to remove the fear of the one on one fight. Its how it is. maybe it could be more or maybe is a slow but sure growth. But is not possible to compare to other games cause unless you can change history its not something that other people can follow.
I also think some genres can only become so mainstream before loosing what it actually is. You mentioned RPGs but FF16 was basically 3D character action game instead of its traditional turn based roots.
Truth is some things will only become mainstream(without changing) if the mainstream changes its own tastes.
Great video.
ff16 was back to its roots 🤭
After the recent Tekken pass discussion, I'd say it's definitely the greed that's limiting the growth
Rooflemonger said it best when discussing briefly about the tekken pass (note need didn't sound too convinced either) 'you don't do it [you will be left] in the dirt'. I am sure there is a financial incentive to make this tekken pass, but also - for a casual audience - it is a tried a true method as long as it is well implemented. Rage quitting or only playing once is a common in tekken 8, I am sure a pass that has goals like play 4 'full' rank matches can mitigate this. I honestly think a pass guide a casual player base and give incentive to learn. So yes money will be gained but let's hope 🙏🏼 it makes a playerbase more invested, financially (casual and pro ig).
@@adriakkoartisto5567yeah you will be left in the dirt after selling 2 million copies in a month, of your $70 niche product… absolute delusion.
@SeriousPeaches plus dlc as well ig
Definitely. Announcing dlcs day one of already made characters at launch is scam. Basically makes a fg a 100 € game
Some gamers just couldn't handle the mental stack of playing fighting games. It's 1 V 1, that makes it even more hard.
I have to disagree with the idea that making a game more complex saves it. Gran blue rising still isn’t that popular. Anime fighting games in general are already less popular than normal fighting games because they are so complex. Smash bros stays simple, and has proven its success by that.
Multiverses didn’t die because it tried to use mainstream stuff. It died because it was a laggy broken mess of a game that needed to be reworked from the ground up.
The very nature of hard competitiveness of fighting games and the learning curve is what keeps fighting games from being mainstream. They don’t need movies and anime. Most popular shooters lack both of those. So that’s not the problem. The problem is the level of dedication needed to play so u don’t feel like shit.
Also the amount of players. If more fighting games were 2v2 or 3v3 like a team sport or team shooter, I’m sure that would raise the popularity a bit
It's mental. When you get into fighting games you are going to lose. . . and lose alot. People don't like that. I've seen people who after losing take the route of "It's all just guessing anyway. I didn't lose because I'm bad. I lost because the other guy just guessed more than I did". Yeah I've seen that argument.
People don't like to hold all the L's it takes to git gud.
The average person doesn’t have the time or patience to learn fighting games and because it’s casuals that buy majority of games theres not enough money floating around fighters for it to be mainstream. Casuals arent watching people play fighting games because they can’t relate or understand whats even happening, you have to get to a decent level yourself to understand the hype watching fighting games really, fighting games are deep and complex and take actual hard work and effort to learn, the average will never accept that from a game, casuals play to chill out and have fun, us fighting game players are built different 😂
Games such as Dota2, LoL and CS, are F2P that takes care of one of the main barriers of entry and they got popularized due to being team based games, which makes for a social experience when you got a few friends who wants to play something online and theyre also the franchises thst benefited the most of the LAN house boom in some regions of the world in thr 2000s and for their success stories there's been tons of other games that tried to capitalize on their popularity and died pretty fast.
As far as monetization goes, fighting games have the problem of either charging you a price of entry and then adding micro transactions in which even following Tekken 8's model with the devs claiming the proceeds will fund events. It's still a bitter pill to swallow. While the other games, you try it, if you don't like it, ok whatever it was free anyway and by that point you probably won't have bought into any of the micro transactions or if you just buy one cheap skin it's not that big of a loss.
One more thing that LoL players for instance hardly talk about is the balance, the game has an enormous roster and it's not balanced at all. The meta usually revolves around new heroes and some balance patches but most of it's time it's been a matter of fixing one broken tier character and a couple of others get broken in the process.
FGC are more critical of this aspect, it's also one of the reasons the KoF community started to turn their backs on XV since it took them so long to balance characters like Krohnen. It made the matches far too repetitive to watch so viewership drops out, same with KoF XIII (With Nests Kyo, Iori, Chin and Mr. Karate). Btw, I'm a big KoF fan so it sucks to say this about my fave fighting game.
Personally I didnt like SF4 but there was always some surprises at Evo of people picking and succeeding with characters no one expected, which speaks highly to how they balanced the game to keep it interesting.
The topic as a whole has tons of layers, I already went on long enough about some of the issues. There's still the difficulty curves of learning, games including teaching tools, extra features, fan service with crossovers, games getting dropped rather soon, the team versus individual performance argument and so on. It is a LOT to unpack.
Although i dont like LoL, their fighting game might put fighting games on the spotlight since they're going for what seems like a F2P MvC style game, what remains to be seen is if they'll create a good gameplay loop and enough tools to help newcomers get into it and keep them playing.
It’s just way harder to get to that top level. You have to dedicate so much time and people lose interest. Most people get discouraged when you go online and get smoked. That leads to people fading away and not coming back. For various reasons it’s just harder to get good.
Unfriendly community, lack of in game resources to learn and progress, absolute learning cliff you have to climb, predatory nickle and diming in games - look at Tekken 8.
tekken might be the most successful title tho lol. tekken has CURB APPEAL, it’s a game that can be fun for spectators in the ways similar to MMA, wrestling, and boxing.
They are "mainstream" just different player base. Why we need to "grow"? Who says Fgc needs more? I think FGC is in a great spot. Don't understand the need or want for "more"...
Single player content is lack luster and visual feedback is still mediocre. And multiplayer only being ranked and casual matches is boring
The problem with the fighting game experience not adapting to modern day is if you're a regular player you have no stories to tell just playing the game. The only ones who get to tell stories about their experience playing are people who enter tournaments. You played 20 or 30 games last night do you remember any of them? Oh you ran into a Manon? Cool. Meanwhile the ones who enter tournaments can say I won 3 matches and then lost to this really good Dhalsim or I was winning against this Guile player then he swapped to Cammy or I was so close to winning the tournament last night. You don't get that playing fighting games at home and this is something the devs need to fix now. Maybe they should add a matchmaking tournament mode or make it the default for matchmaking or ranked. That way you can even go in with friends. And every popular game will give you stories to tell, Fortnite has you when how you were almost the last man standing, Dota has moments where games will last for over an hour, CS has times when you're neck and neck with the other team and even go into overtime. At best fighting games have is I went on a 10 game win streak which is a zero sum game. Fighting game needs moments like in tournaments where you think I can't believe I'm at round 4 and then you try to calm yourself for round 5 to start or you make the semi finals but get knocked out by Panda. Or that sweet taste of the first tournament win of the day. People find fighting games repetitive because the experience is just find match forever and making a number go up and feeling sad when it goes down.
People don’t put in the work to get a decent understanding of fighting games. FPS games do better because they are far easier to compete at the most entry levels. Take a game like Smash bros or Brawhalla they are simple to comprehend at the start and new players won’t get as put off by them. Where as a novice Tekken player could possibly triple perfect a new comer. I’m sure many of us in the FGC have completely bodied everyone in our immediate friend group, only to go to a local and realize you still have a lot to work on.
I can agree that arcade and console roots do hold back the genre sometimes. Actual gameplay differences between P1 and P2 sides in Tekken is a very good example of that.
And the fact that tournaments still have 2 players playing on the same device. If you want to make a legit esports game, you should give each player their own gear and free choice which side they want to play on. If it is not a problem in online battles, shouldn't be a problem with local either.
Similar wtf is that you have no option to play on LAN, only through an online lobby. That is unimaginable for a mainstream videogame these days.
Story mode is another example. Tekken 8's story is arguable the best in the series by a mile, but... it is still very weak compared to other mainstream games with a story mode. Sure, we mostly don't play it because of the story, but still.
Also what if you give the player an option not to look at the characters sideways, but behind the shoulder of their own? It is a very weird concept, yes, but it could be implementable and who knows? Maybe it will attract more people and be useful without changing the game's actual mechanics.
These were just examples. The mindset is what the developers have to adapt to the mainstream a little bit. Still that won't make the games or the genre necessarily worse.
But yeah, other than that, it is a hard task. Fighting games are not rewarding most of the time as other games, and can be frustrating at times.
I don't want it to go mainstream, that would be awful. The bigger fighting games already are getting toxicity levels similar to cod and lol (you know which fighting game is like this without me spelling it out even). If anything the smaller the better, the people in smaller communities are way nicer and more pleasant to interact with. So no, go away, I don't want mainstream toxicity in my fighting games.
Quick question, why would we want that? What do we need to give up in order to achieve that?
I get that top 8-16-32 deserves more money. Everyone does, frankly. But looking at League of Legends, the game itself is an unapproachable toxic cesspool under the best of circumstances, and their Esports events are literally wasting millions of dollars as advertisement for the game itself. Is that really a model we want to be chasing?
For the time being, I think fighting games are doing fine. Old games have gotten a second life through Fightcade and Discord, and for the first time in seemingly forever, there's no dead matchmaking in any of the big current games on the market. Nothing like the glory days of the PS3 where you got a copy of Blazblue a week late to find the servers empty. Major tournaments are growing, so are online tournaments. Locals are suffering, and we should have more serious conversations about fixing that, but I get that it's hard and time consuming to leave ones home, especially in this economy where free time is a luxury for many.
We've been on the path of steady growth since forever, building up a strong, reliable community that is able to resist poor decisions by corporations. Activision decides that Heroes of the Storm and Overwatch League are no longer worth investing in? Those games are dead. Capcom stopped promoting Street Fighter X Tekken a decade ago? Who cares, see you at Combo Breaker.
We should keep on our current path, building slow but strong, instead of chasing some golden goose to rocket the genre into some place where it doesn't belong.
All that having been said, I think you're right in some aspects on how we can grow intelligently. Branching outwards seems like a decent way to do it, and Tekken doing a Netflix deal was a smart decision. The show just wasn't up to the level of quality where anyone outside of the franchise would care, certainly nowhere near the artistry of Arcane. That show succeeded for many reasons, but a huge part of it was that the writers were not afraid to change the setting or etablished lore. Some things were expanded, others discarded, some directly contradicted, and it let to a great story catching the minds and hearts of millions. By comparison, Tekken retold the story of a 1997 fighting game but everyone has a triangle shadow over there head. A movie or TV show is a gamble, because it needs to be good enough that people can and will care about it on its own merits, rather than as an advertisement for something else.
There are other avenues you can go, of course. I think SEGA would be smart to make a Virtua Fighter character a supporting character in a Yakuza game. Not to make it a full-blown crossover, but like how Ryu Hayabusa appears in both Ninja Gaiden and Dead or Alive. Let Kiryu or Ichiban interact with someone like Goh, maybe with some of his weirder plot-elements sanded a bit down and some of his personal issues cranked up. Something like that might also entice people to imagine bigger stories for the rest of the VF cast, and get them invested without SEGA having to write anything immediately. Of course, Ichiban or Goro could show up in VF6 to sweeten the deal.
Other than that, I think Sajam hit the nail on the head with his recent Tekken tournament. It didn't feel like the usual corporate theatrics where big names are paid to pretend to care for 2 hours, but like the FGC openly embraced a wider community that wanted to be embraced. Huge props to Sajam for that, and to the Japanese SF6 scene for doing something similar before that.
Finally, I think fighting game trailers sucks for people that are not already into the particular game. Overwatch will announce a character with animated shorts, while fighting games just kinda dumps some pokes, combos and supers into the exact same order as the last 26 trailers. These trailers needs to be better at introducing their characters to the entire world. Remember how Tekken 4 and 5 had those arcade mode openings with gorgeous artwork and captivating voice over? Imagine a trailer starting with that, before the pokes, the combos and the supers. Maybe end with a call to action, a mission statement. Like Lidia maybe explaining how and why she expects professional karate to help Poland with anything.
Lots of ways to grow interest beyond the industry, but we have to be smart and patient with it. It's too easy to waste money and kill franchises these days.
it costs $60
🧢 you dont find it worth $60 (least be real now a days $70) COD, Sports games, anything Nintendo. Its just hard for a casual player to stay casual.
Fightings are hard. If in moba you got only 4 abilities per enemy plus universal items - and it's still hard to comprehend; you could look up what they do in the game. In fightings - only training/replay assists/discords/wikis will help find the correct answers. And yes, there's just more abilities to remember for a period of time.
That's adapting side for competing. For watching - there's also not a lot that can be happening. There can be the most amazing footsies+mindgame plays ever on display, but for ordinary joe it's: 'shouldn't they be attacking right now?' Or whatever. (In mobas that ordinary joe would say: oh, that was a battle over that big monster in the river; teams clashed and one went on top, because of the gold graphic over there in the corner? that's cool, I guess)
It's awesome that the game changes a lot, as you get higher; there's always things to learn or discover. But say, tournament level brawlhalla is a different game than middle of the rank one.
One another point is - does it need a million dollar prizes though? Is it sustainable? Vs just a series of tournaments run by enthusiasts, out of their pockets, without chance for making a living off it.
There are shooter, Quantum League, Lemni's Gate. I thought about it yesterday. 1v1 shooters with time paradox twist. (both games is - separated in rounds; further rounds interact with ghosts of the previous round players, changing the outcome) Needless to say, it's confusing. But still, interesting idea, great execution. good games when you get over the initial confusion. Both of theese games tried to capture a big audience, tried monetizing with battle pass, and stuff. When it became obvious that there is only a little community for them.
So I thought: Why couldn't they have gone the Quake route instead of the Mmo route? They are 1v1s anyway, let players primarily play with a friend over lan, and not make reliant on matchmaking system. Business model was their biggest mistake, I think.
I definitely want more growth. Ironically, though, League of Legends and Fortnite are unapproachable for me. Same with a lot of FPS games they are harder to approach for me than Tekken 8.
Never saw an appeal with shooter games. Fighting games are more entertaining anyway.
I’m just getting into FGC, but not going to lie, the cost to buy multiple new games is high. Then there’s DLC if you want it. Then on the consoles there’s the price to play online. Then add the time to get into being good and learning the fundamentals of a fighting game. If you got the time and money, that’s great. But I would say outside the top 3 fighting games, I don’t think FGC can go mainstream.
First thing would be fun factor - fighting games aren't fun for most people.
Second thing would be most all the popular games are free to play with purchase option. Fighting games developers always want to milk their playerbase. Paying a lot of money only to get charged with another DLC or similar things.
Third would be how hard fighting games are. And feel unfair for most parts.
1:18 - 1:23 You're looking at the right one.
Even with PS5
The Quarry, WWE 2K23, Resident Evil 4 remake, Dead Island 2, Tetris, Street Fighter 6, Mortal Kombat 1 and Tekken 8.
So, honestly, I'm all about fighting games.
advertising which is the actual problem in snk's case(they have awesome commercials in japan that added immersion to the film/actual cinematic feel that would've been awesome to have in the u.s) as storywise it is way better than mortal kombat(which story isn't good being more from casuals that haven't seen the actually good narratives of the past capcom/snk definitely/arc system works and went way too far with the gore/greedy actions in a lazy reboot.)/street fighter outside some characters as it was when it actually had story in fg.
be open to all walks of the fandom not only purist or evo players as that was what messed up street fighter 5's launch.
better management of their fighting circles not putting greedy battle passes for a cheap dishonest buck.
in super smash bros. case it should focus on single player like a bigger story for 6 as that was what alongside greed killed multiverse hype/nasb being bare at 1st that them focusing on the actual characters made nasb2 have potential for nick.
open into other media as snk's new direction(with oobari having interest in making another kof anime/cotw promotional/fatal fury ova continuation.:3) bringing back the 90's/2000's style of adaptations is what street fighter 6 should do(make a sequel to the animated movie/2v with how they brought back it's singer for 6,marvel vs. capcom special in x-men 97 or a juri-chan short anime series.:3).
go a bit more with collaborations(like the spy x family collab in street fighter 6 have yor/loid/anya as npc's in missions with costumes for the other characters not only avatars that no one uses.) maybe letting us play with them for a bit like kof all stars.
focus on base game 1st and not have dlc be patches as street fighter 6(half the 2 characters should've been cut and with how kof 15 had a majority of the series represented it's lazy we haven't had any alpha or 3rd strike characters with only 2 4/5 characters that could've taken spots like dee jay,e. honda,dhalsim or blanka.) & tekken 8(like they're given their full stories but others like potentially anna williams should've been in base in say azucena's story spot.) for as fun as they are have that huge problem compared to kof 15(where outside kim kaphwan/the boss challenges should've had their own endings with the stories some of them have everyone else fit as dlc.)
mix the arcade feel with console replayability(which is what was a big issue back then/in areas still reeling from was having a sit down at home for hours console mindset than the quick n go arcade for experience.) as capcom had that in the 90's with alpha 3 for street fighter giving great single player alongside snk's story/guilty gear in xrd alongside giving closure for characters in strive though it's main story should've had more than a few characters in it.
From my friends, and even from me personally (even tho I mainly play fighting games and I’m pretty good at them. Master rank in street fighter, and top ranks in mk1 and tekken currently), the main problems with fighting games is the learning. You have to learn ur character before u can have fun.
The process of learning isn’t fun. I feel like if more fighting games had like a beat ‘em up mode with the characters having their complete movesets, more people would have more fun learning characters.
Also, skill degradation. Fighting games, if u stay away from them for a little bit, it’s easy to lose the skills u attained. So you have to keep up with them. For some of us that like to play a lot of games, that’s a turn off.
These are just some conclusions from me and my friend group
So In summary, people don’t liketo actively practice fighting games. I suggest fighting games to have a beat ‘em up story mode or something for players to learn characters while still feeling like they are having fun making progress in a story or rewards for completing challenges in the pve mode
You definitely don’t have to keep up with like FPS games. Once I know frame data I cannot play a fighting game for 2 months and come back and still be as good. FPS games like R6 siege if you don’t play for awhile, your skill will go down
@@RedDaniels88 hm strange, for me and pretty much everyone I know, we can pick up and play any shooter no problem. Fighting games, feels like if I stay away, I need a few refresher matches to remember my combos and specific match ups. And even then, might only remember how to play a couple characters and not all of them
No Real multiple offline content or co-op and greed. Thanks for coming to my ted talk-GG00
Fighting games are too easy to hack and manipulate. From modding skins, to using mod scripts and cheats, to flat out manipulating the gaming server itself to lag switch or create INTENTIONAL glitches during the fight to give one's self an advantage. Is why the FGC will never go mainstream. In fact for example, Harada has banned players recently for modding costumes. By having such an irresponsible approach to players hacking their game, MAINSTREAM would really ridicule the FGC and make it a laughing stock. Fighting games can barely satisfy the current core fan base they couldnt possibly satisfy a bigger audience
Well, the same thing with any other genre
Unless they modernize the controls to basically one button and pull crazy combos with little to no skill like the naruto storm games the fighting game genre will always be limited. Also get rid of microtransactions/stores smh costumes and characters should be unlocked naturally through game progression not our wallets smfh.