Rare Compensating French Horn Review - Josef Lidl Brno Brand
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- Опубліковано 5 жов 2024
- Many months ago I ran a crowd funding campaign to restore this Josef Lidl Brand french horn - an unusual french horn with a bizarre compensating valve design, but unfortunately it was in shocking condition - flattened tubing, all valves ceased, all tubing stuck... But now, thanks to the generous donations I've received, it's now in working condition.
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When working with a compensating horn, the biggest problem with them is the tone change when switching to the F side of the horn. On a true double horn, the F side is the darker, larger sound, but in a compensating horn, the F side is brighter like the Bb side of the horn. it is not uncommon to have to empty out water out of the horn every 3-5 minutes through multiple sources, being a water key or several of the tuning slides. Dealing with your tuning problems, the majority of it is probably you being unfamiliar to a french horn style mouthpiece. It gets much easier to play in tune the longer your play the horn, but this is for sure a problem beginner horn players get when starting out and it may seem like the horns fault, but I would lean the responsibility on the player more than anything
Rekt
I play a double horn, and even if you had a water key (I do have), you would need to empty the water using the tuning slides.
Ranedom *YEP*
Ranedom what kind of horn do you have? My Conn 8D doesn't have one
Dustin The Conn 8D doesn't have a water key. He probably uses a Holton
My Holton accumulates water faster than the hoover dam and I rarely use the water key.
It's not that horns accumulate water faster than other instruments, it's that the tubing is so much narrower, so you notice a lot sooner. Also there are a hundred places that water could be hiding, so players get pretty good at associating a particular burble with a particular location of fluid buildup. And when all else fails, you dump all the slides and then spin the horn around several times until it pees on your leg.
forgive the criticism, but you play the horn like a trumpet player. pot calling the kettle black, I play the trumpet like a horn player :)
alec saidat If you don't mind me asking, what do you mean by that? I play trumpet and am interested in learning French horn.
trumpet players tend to have a much more stark timbre on the horn than somebody who started on the horn. the embouchure is different between the two instruments, and as such there are risks associated with taking up both (i.e. your tone on the trumpet will suffer because you are retraining your lip). I only dabble on the trumpet, and there are MANY more skilled than I, but it is still fun and in a pinch I can pull out the trumpet for a gig if there are no other options. I would equate the trumpeters turned hornists to the violinists turned guitarists. The two instruments are similar enough to teach the basics on one, and make the transition very early in training, but they are completely different instruments on which mastery does not convey.
Thanks!
I thought he played the horn more like a trombonist, but what do I know? -- I'm a string player.
Bizarre instrument. I wonder what could possibly account for the main first valve loop seeming to to be too long.
Same
lol, horn players always have spit problems no matter what. Sometimes you have to clear fee spit out of the bell.
Jim Lowes *YEP*
Yards and yards of tubing will result in that.
One day after many jokes our hornsection had a spit cup in between them. The next practis day most of us in brass section had the same thing! Except the b-flat Tuba player he had a bucket!! :-D
Hey i take that offencivly. I play double horn and its hard enugh having trumpets behind you makind your eardrums blead
Gets in ur fist.
So when is "All about the French horn - part 2" gonna come out?
rogermwilcox my question too
yes, I just watched part 1 and was looking if he ever did part 2
never.
@@davidwestin6345 was about to comment that :D
Now
I'm a horn player, I saw the vid about this horn when it was posted and I'm so happy to finally see it restored. Not terrible horn playing!
Btw, where does the key of "if" fall within the circle of fifths :) ?
finally a horn vid
Legitminecwaftor he played it on his live stream last night It was cool
What about the hand-stopping techniques that seem to be common in horns? I rarely notice you mentioning them with regard to dealing with tuning problems.
Joachim Pense Hand stopping is a really hard technique used by advanced players.
You wouldn't really tune to get the target note when using hand-stop. When you are playing in hand-stopping mode, you play the semitone lower of the target note. So if you want to play G, you play f sharp.
Hand-stop was the only way to achieve a semitone scale back in the natural valve-less horn days. Now you would use it in Khachaturian or Hunter's Moon and stuff.
Major Classics I think he's on about the fact that horn players slightly open or close their hand for intonation purposes
I'm sure he could have tried to do it, but it's hard to get a feel for hand stopping. In my experience, only experienced horn players can pull off hand stopping decently well. Anyone who isn't experienced just gets weird notes
Dineth Altmann for a brass band player he also plays the French horn very well!
It's 3 AM...
*WTF am I doing with my life?*
Good video though.
I've actually got a compensated f horn that was made by getzen and it plays absolutely beautifully
I just got one of those a month ago and I am really liking it.
I play a double horn. It has a water key but I just yank the slides out cuz the water key does bugger all at removing it
I tried a York compensating horn in the 9th grade. I really didn't like it. I took lessons from the instrument designer from King - Cleveland, and I tried a pre-production model of a King Eroica horn. It was beautiful!
I hope you have a good day Trent :)
Loved how you played jesu at the beginning. Playing that for our Christmas concert
Have you heard the song angels in the architecture by frank ticheli? Its such a masterpeice of a song and has incredible trombone and french horn parts.
I never really liked compensating horns, usually the valves are nearly impossible to reach when playing on the b flat side since I knew the trumpet and euphonium prior to the horn.
I actually just performed Angels in the Architecture this spring with a honor band (it's on UA-cam as the WVU honor band). It's an unforgettable piece. You really have to have a solid horn section to do some of the techniques called for. It's incredible!
Mason Atha i learned the french horn in roughly 3 weeks, i have a decent embouchure for it and am practicing level 5 peices over the summer for my senior year, i feel like I could learn the horn part within a month
I loved playing that piece (I was in that honor band). What instrument do you play?
There's an old picture of my grandad posing with one of these horns, I'm not sure what year the picture was taken but my guess would be mid to late 50s
He studied and worked in Brno during that time and often went to the Lidl factory to test out horns, I would love to get my hands on one of these horns some day and recreate that photo
Unfortunately, virtually ALL French Horns lack water keys - its endemic in the horn culture. Holton's Farkas model is an exception.
The best thing about this guy (besides his extensive knowledge) is his New Zilland Excent. The key of "if." Now if he would just do Part II of his video about the different types of French horns.
can you do a valved trombone
Disclosure, I'm a tuba player, so this may be completly incorrect.
My understanding about modern compensating double horns is that their use is primarily for young students. Smaller horn for smaller people. I also understand that they aren't uncommon for 1st horn players, when the lower register isn't needed as often and you can stay on the Bb side for high register stability. I believe those horns are also primarily in Bb with the trigger dropping to F, just like a euphonium (full doubles are in F with trigger cutting off tubing, raising the horn to Bb. Sorry if you know that, not sure how common french horns are over in your hemisphere). That means you don't have to deal with the stuffy, compensating, F-side unless absolutely necessary.
I could also be completly wrong. Any knowledgeable horn players out there?
Adding another, a compensating horn will be much lighter than a regular double, which makes the sound brighter, because there's less mass to resonate with. This can help with tone quality in higher registers in parts that are written for 1st and 3rd players. There are lot of European (mostly french if I remember correctly) orchestras that require their players to use compensating horns for all parts to get that brighter tone.
Steve C I play a compensating and the horn is in f without the trigger and Bb with the trigger. Compensating horns aren't much smaller than doubles, the difference is barely noticeable. for young players (under 12) there is the kinder horn which only has an f side and is small enough for small children. compensating horns are used by students because they're cheaper.
42Mrchadman42 high horn in modern pieces is sometimes 1&2 rather than the traditional 1&3
Having repaired this style of horn, i can tell you that it's not really lighter than a standard double. Although a difference in resonation might be the position of the mass compared to two "airways" in one valve.
Steve C glad to see another tuba player :)
Cornford makes these instruments w/ improved sound quality
Good review Trent. It would be great if you could arrange a horn player to test that unique horn. Would love to hear the sound of that horn
Good evening Trent
Much enjoy your videos (on all brass especially oddballs) but may have one for you. Started at age 11 with alto horn (E b) and shortly after was started on horn in F. Was a really oddball instrument and being that it was about 60 years ago, memory is a bit dim. It was a piston valve horn. The tuning slides (which were quite long) had "hash" marks on them allowing the instrument to play in F, Eb, E and if memory serves also D.
I truly wish I had paid more attention to the instrument. I shortly after that received a single horn in F with a crook to change to Eb so that first instrument passed out of mind. I do remember that it was quite heavy! Any comments would be more than welcome.
Is it at all similar to the circular horn in the background of any of my recent videos?
Apparently we literally do not talk about BRNO because I have a full double (not a compensating) Lidl BRNO horn that appears to have been made prior to the take over by the government (combined with Cerveny under the Amati name) and I can't find ANY information about it. Not even after contacting the company. It's an unlaquered horn, quite heavy and appears to have the same tubing layout as the later made Amati AHR 345. It seems to have great sound. (yes, I realize just how old this video is)
Love this guy.
Cornford makes a modern equivalent of this. Basically the same design but a triple compensating horn. I have not played one but there are a lot of professional players who rave about that horn and it reportedly has less resistance and better turning than a standard triple.
my Bb single compensating horn only adds a length of tubing a little longer than the 2nd valve does, all separate from the normal valves. it's a stopping valve, somewhat like it puts the instrument in A. Made by Sterling, bought from a dealer in AUS.
French horns are pretty weird and variable in design, huh?
I have been waiting for months for this video.
I remember seeing this video the day it came out and finding it confusing but fascinating. Years later, working as a brass tech, I’ve found a Getzen (Ellhorn, WI) compensating F/Bb horn in the shop which engages both loops of tuning slides by default, and I agree it is a pretty poor design for playability and resistance. Yours looks like a worse nightmare to service, though. I never thought I’d be thankful for the comparable ‘simplicity’ of a standard double horn!
I am really liking by Getzen Elkhorn compensating horn.
First, this horn IS considered a compensating DOUBLE horn. Pulling/depressing the thumb valve's lever will change the fundamental key from F to Bb. Effectively, that change is accomplished by subtracting the short, added tubing lengths via the activation of the thumb valve. So the horn sits in the key of F, and the thumb-activated valve removes the added tubing length, leaving the horn in the key of Bb. Yes, acoustically, a full double horn is closer to the ideal of having two separate horns sharing a common bell; I.e., a double horn. But MANY professionals have used the compensating double (and triple), easily overcoming the small acoustical disadvantages (its main advantage being a lighter instrument.) Several major and long-established makers have included high quality compensating models in their catalogs. Since several prestigious professionals over the years have used a compensating horn, it's obvious that, in many cases, such a horn was considered to be equal or superior to the full-double options available,. This Lidl model can be played well and in tune. My experience indicates that the lowest range of this design is a bit inefficient. However, some compensating doubles have no such affliction. Thanks for this video.
your afternoon is my late evening haha
I am looking for a new horn, I tried this horn in orchestra rehearsal and it was so lovely to play. It projected SO well and I actually found it easier to play in the higher register. This horn that I played did have a standard f/bflat valve so I don’t know if it was different but it looked the same. I was pretty supposed because this horn was bought for £800 and had had no repairs.
I wondered who bought that instrument. I got a TARV Euph from the same guy a year or so ago.
Great presentation! I am an amateur f-horn player arguably the only one here on you-tube, and this be one of the best presentation of horn by know. (please do not vibrato on french horn, and please focus on clear execution of every note, fast passages are of minor interest.)
Tuning is what the hand is for
This is called Walzen Horn
oh, ( just as a passing thought,) you know about hand stopping various notes for tuning, right?
The question is: in hindsight, was it worth the investment in making it playable when you now conclude it actually isnt?
I think so. Using alternate fingering works fine, although has a learning curve associated with it.
There is a German brand that makes this type of compensating french horn called cornford.
Fascinating.
nevermind you already did that
Your Horn skills are amazing. Brings a tear to my eyes on how ridiculously good you are....said no one ever. lol jk
Why not remove the mouthpiece and empty the water through the lead pipe like one would do on a "Wiener Horn" or specificly the crook. When you hold it like you would play, spin it to the left. This could also help with "splashing" all over the horn like with a water key.
To the length of the first tubing, is it just the first or occurs this problem on all three? Have you checked if the horn itself is tuned to play around 440 - 442 Hz?
What's the intro song?
It's a Barrel Valve Horn.
What was the song that you played in the beginning??
"Jesus bleibet meine Freude" ("Jesus joy of man's desiring") by the immortal J.S. Bach
Cool!
Can you review the French horn Reynolds contempora?
With french horn you will be lucky if you have a spit valve. My school has two out if over 11, and only 1 of those is school owned. Spit will never come competly out, and i have to turn mine over 3 times to get part of the spit out... It sucks during contest. I was on the end on year in clear veiw of everyone, and i had to empty my spit, and i missed the come in because i could not get the spit out in time, and it was a quite slow song featuring french horns right there and it would have sounded terrible with the spit in it...
Can you please make a video about that natural trumpet in the background?
Trent-some notes of the harmonic series are out of tune on every French horn because a horn player can play so many notes of the harmonic series! When playing, you should avoid using the 5th natural note (major 3rd) - it's always flat; the 7th (minor 7th) - it's flat as well; the 10th (high major 3rd) flat as well; and the 11th natural note (somewhere between high 4th and tritone) .
However, you can use these natural notes combined with hand-covering techniques to obtain a nice sound and intonation. The Spanish Hornist Javier Bonet has published a video about that.
That sounds like a trumpet player playing the horn...
When you realize that a French Horn is an instrument with no valves but 4 triggers like a trombone
check if 3rd valve has a rubber stopper
I am in the process of perhaps buying this identical horn, but I am unsure of a price to settle on. Could you comment as to what you think your horn is worth now that it has been restored?
I don't know - this hasn't been "restored" to a playing state - there are still air leaks and things which make it hard to play.
Trent- Do all B-flat horns use a trumpet mouthpiece like the one you are holding, or is that just a personal preference of yours to use that mouthpiece instead of a a standard uncomfortable french horn mouthpiece? Because I know you can't use your trombone mouthpiece on that french horn! Thanks for the video.
That's a french horn mouthpiece, not a trumpet mouthpiece. Trumpet mouthpiece can't fit in a horn
I play the trumpet and want to learn horn; do yall think it will be an issue for my embouchure to play both?
Hi, I’m fourteen, and have been playing the double horn for 3 years, that sounds like a long time, but I still succ at it. Do you have any tips for the tone quality of high notes
Is Schiller a good brand of instrument I was looking at a Schiller American Heritage bass trombone
Nicholas' Trombone Certainly better than many years ago. They are a stencil of Chinese instruments, but design their own instruments exclusive to that brand. For a lot of use they'd be fine. However, I urge you to look at Wessex and Mack Brass, their quality control and warranty far out pace Schiller. You most likely will be very pleased and surprised at the quality.
Thank you sir.
Not having a water key isn't unusual on a horn. My Conn 8D doesn't have one, and my Lidl before that didn't either.
I own a Holton Farkas model instrument that was factory equipped with a water key.
That range that he was playing in at the beginning shouldn't require the third valve. Just saying...
I was using it to try and make the tuning more acceptable.
I found a Josef Lidl Trombone in my school music storage room after cleaning it up I tried to find info on it but couldn't find a thing. Would you happen to know something
As far as I know they didn't/don't make trombones. Could you please send me some photos?
ur accent is great
You're AMAZING you are Trent mate! ;) :D :D :D :D :D :D :D 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏 How do you manage to play all them brass instruments and how'd you managed to afford them all?! :D :D :D :D :D :D I had a go at a trumpet in my trombone lesson a while ago and I couldn't do it! 😝 Cuz my embouchure's only used to the thickness of my trombone! XD
What's the 1 and 3 combination for? Is it a compensating horn thing bc I've been playing horn for awhile and the only time i use the 3rd valve is for very low registers or for tuning in certain pieces.
I play double Horn and I'm pretty sure he's using it for low G on the Bb side. But I could be wrong as this is a compensating horn.
What song is he playing?
this band is from our country
How old is this horn?
I'd like to see a video of your mouthpiece, inside and out. The outside profile of your mouthpiece almost looks, to me, like a mini cirnet cup stuffed on a horn shank. I have been playing the french horn over fifty years and have looked at played many different ones. Yours looks unusual to me, but I haven't seen it up close.
Looks pretty nice, but I guess people's definition of 'restore' differ from one another
Trent should I get a French Horn or a 4 valve euphonium there both $439.00 which one do you recemmend
Joshua Day fr
Well Trent, if you would hold the horn correctly, you wouldn't bang it against your head.
Just kidding, I know we wouldn't be able to see it then. ;)
Greetings
A fellow Horn player from Switzerland
It sounds difficult to play
Aren't bass trombones compensating trombones?
NKextras K.F. why would you say that lol
Anthony Dang Because bass trombones also have valves that lower the pitch by a key.
"Compensating", in terms of a brass instrument, relates to whether valve combinations simply select the tubing with that valve in isolation (non-compensating), or whether valve combinations bring into play additional or different tubing for a different airflow, thus "compensating" for the fact that a set of tubing can only be a particular length for one particular combination of valves. A bass trombone only has 2 valves at most, and I believe that (if its an independent) if both valves are selected, no compensating is done, hence both valves together produces a drop of 8 semitones (Bb to low D), not 9 semitones. The 1st valve drops Bb to F (5 semitones) and the 2nd valve on its own would drop 4 semitones (Bb to Gb).
So no, a bass trombone is not compensating BUT because of the slide, doesn't need to be.
In effect, it's the bass trombonist who does the compensating, not the instrument's mechanism. The slide positions get farther apart when the valve(s) add extra tubing to the instrument, and the player has to adjust accordingly.
j'ai eu la chance de me procurer un paxman 20m edition anniverssaire tiré a 20 exemplaires c'est une crême dans le soufle le jeu la facilité de jeu tout simplement magnifique et magic. en meme temp je passe d'un alexander 503 a un paxman 20 m. de l'age de pierre au temp moderne
Tighten your core, lips, and stop being crooked. Use more range by using high tongue fast air to go high, and low tounge for low
I mean, don't ALL valves just add tubing? =P
Technically, yes*. But they can be set up in reverse, so that activating the valve _removes_ tubing. The thumb trigger shortens the horn from F to B♭ alto, whether on a compensating double or full double horn. The other two cases I can think of are the ascending third valve of some 19th century single horns (it goes up 2 semitones, rather than down 3 - G♯ is still played 2+3), and the similar valve on a "preacher model" trombone such as usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-instruments/winds/trombones/tenortrombones/ysl-350c/ likewise stands in B♭ and rises to C when activated.
*Except for deliberate misuse of the instrument - P. D. Q. Bach's _Oedipus Tex_ for example calls for the horn soloist to remove a valve slide, so that activating that valve acts as a full leak.
No (strictly), but I see where you're coming from. Normally, valves add tubing to lengthen, thus lowers the pitch. But as stated, valves can be configured so that activating it does the "straight through" and at rest, it adds the tubing.
BUT a 4th valve on a typical full double French horn doesn't "just add" tubing, it alters the airflow between two effectively independent sets of tubing, for each side of the horn. The sides are different lengths, thus the pitches are different. And it is in tune when the 1-3 valves are pressed because these are in fact 2 valves in one, in that they have 2 sets of tubing in and out of each (which are again, slightly different lengths).
It's still not "in tune", the horn is notorious for the "looseness" of its harmonic slots. However, as long as they're close enough that the right hand can compensate, that's good enough. Also, 1+3 and 1+2+3 are always sharp unless it's a three-valve compensating system. Fortunately, being able to play both sides of the horn eliminates most of the troublesome 1+3 and 1+2+3 combinations. There is simply no reason to ever use 1+3 or 1+2+3 on the B♭ side when they can be played as 0 or 2 on the F side and be spot on. Well... mostly. There are times in the low register where you can't avoid using 1+3 or 1+2+3, and in such cases the B♭ side may be less out of tune than the F side for that particular note, or it may not.
Sometimes even shorter valve arrangements are better off avoided. First space F centers better on the B♭ side of the horn (and no other valves) compared to 1st valve on the F side. In fact, it centers up so well, I would often have to back off the attack to keep it from popping out compared to the rest of the phrase around it. F♯ and G I generally played on the F side, and anything above that was fit for the B♭ side. Below the F, I'd usually play E and E♭ on the B♭ side rather than use the "flat" fifth harmonic of the F side, but the fact that 1+2 tends naturally sharp meant it was fine to use that harmonic to play D on the F side, and anything below the staff was played entirely on the F side unless technical demands made it worthwhile to sneak over to the B♭ side for a brief moment.
Mostly, I just thought of the F and B♭ sides of the horn as representing alternate fingerings, some of which work better than others. I knew the physics of the horn, but had to distill it down to something I could execute in realtime without much thought. I'm sure that with the Lidl horn, I'd come up with a different set of preferred fingerings than I did on the Holton, but it would still amount to the same thing. Spend a few hours figuring out the optimal fingering for each note, then a second-best fingering that might get called upon in fast passages, and forget all the theory behind it.
are you willing to sell?
The Lidl from Brünn (original name of Brno) construction with the horizontal barrel valve was improved and even extended to a compensating triple by german instrument master cornford. It actually plays very nicely since the resistance and weight is a lot lower than a full triple. www.cornford.de/ - German master Dietmar Dürk has model (the LD CLAVENGER) that sports a perinet valve to compensate acting similar to the barrel valve on this Lidl. www.duerkhorns.de/?id=34
Not trying to be one of those guys, but only a few people use vibrato and a core trombonist shouldn't be one of those people haha, but also don't make it harder than it is, use much more air than lips to slur through notes
yay
Should you start with the 4 rotary valve horn or the 3? Leave a comment...
Depends on your budget, but most beginners start with a 3 rotary valve because the 4th valve just let's you play certain notes easier but a 3 rotary valve is cheaper and easier to learn.
Hey, thanks for the details. I will definitely use that information.
In France, this type of horn is common :/
whatttttt i didn't see this video
I know a hole-in-the-wall embroidery shop living in by the (I think) meth-head son of the owner, where I can buy an Olds "french" Horn for under $100, and I'm somewhat tempted. Except it has a huge engraving on it saying it's property of a college ....
Random fun fact, that actually isn't a French horn, French horns have piston valves, the ones with rotary halves are called German horns. French horns are rarely used
Rickstery yes, but how often have you ever heard anyone call it a German horn? A vase is actually a very large cup for holding flowers, but no one ever calls it that
brand..
Am i the only person who caught the czechoslovakia mistake ?
i happy because im going to 10th grade and im going to be in first band first im so suprised
I want that so much!!! 😍 oh wait it’s b flat awww 😭ahh never mind! 😍
Who came from his live stream?
If you were to set up the fourth valve to stand in B♭ rather than F, which you probably can just by moving connections around, it would behave more like the compensating euphonium you are used to. I bet a lot of your harmonic series being out of tune is down to dents. Some dents can look really bad and do hardly anything, while others can appear to be minor and screw things up a lot. The only way to know is if you play the horn before and after receiving the dent, or to have it repaired. I have such a dent in the neck of my bari sax which causes exactly one note (middle C♯) to split into two resonances - one significantly flat, the other significantly sharp. I can lip it either way, but _not in the middle._ You may be suffering some of the same problems.
On the other hand, dents may actually be the answer. Strategically placed compressions in the bore can do as much to correct the harmonic series, while randomly placed dents generally do the opposite.
Your clicky third valve is probably just a missing bit of cork or rubber. You should fix this not only because of the click, but because the absence allows the valve to over-rotate, compressing the bore quite a lot at that point.
Notification squad
4th
360th
127th 😂😂
First