High-Power Attacker With Low-Power Engines: Henschel Hs 129
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- Опубліковано 3 чер 2024
- In this video, we talk about the Henschel Hs 129, a German ground-attack aircraft from World War II that attempted to use more unwanted parts in its construction. We first talk about the general logic of using unwanted or lesser-wanted parts in aircraft construction, and how it was most commonly seen in the use of wood instead of metal. We then talk about Germany's search for a ground-attack aircraft, spurred on by their success in the Spanish Civil War. We talk about the requirements for the project, including the use of a low-power, not-in-demand engine, and how it resulted in the Hs 129 and Fw 189C.
We then compare the poor performance of both planes, which were far too underpowered and severely restricted pilot vision from cramped cockpits. We talk about how the Hs 129 won by being cheaper to produce, how its initial production models failed, and how the design managed to survive through the German takeover of France. We then talk about the improved performance of the Hs 129, its solid performance at the Battle of Kursk, and its evolution through stronger weaponry, going up to a 75mm cannon.
Plane barely flies...
Engineers: Let's mount 75mm canon on it
The B-25 Mitchell twin engine bomber. Had a 75mm cannon mounted in the nose, but it also had the same recoil system, as it did on the ground. And it was a barge killing machine, in the South Pacific.
"engineers"..... or.. some dude called ,Pappy Gunn. 😅🎉😊
At least they only made a couple of dozen of that type.
@@alanpennie the 75mm also was a failure as hitting the target with any degree of accuracy was impossible. the Ju88 vesrsion was abandoned for the same reason, also because the Mg101 and Mg103 proved more the enough lethal against soviet equipment. Fragmentation bombs ad Mg151/Mg13 in combination also was wells uited to deal with softer targets.
The plane flew well, and it was a fantastic asset in Russia: at Kursk, a single staffel of Hs129 relentlessly attacking for almost 6 hours, literally routed an entire division of Soviet tanks that was on the verge of encircling the left German flank.
@@longrider42 No the 75 mm M5 cannon when mounted in the B25 was in a long recoiling, low recoil stress, mount compared to that when the M5 was mounted in the M-24 light Tank . The few M5 mounted in the M-24 could be distinguished by a redundant collar 3/4 along the chase, this was the main thing that was eliminated when the M6 gun was manufactured - but only the M5 could be fitted in the B-25. Unlike the HS 126 when fitted with the 75 that fitted to the B-25 was fairly effective - but that was in the Pacific theatre were level of A/A was generally a lot less, than even against the Soviets.
Significantly the British mounted the 6pdr Mk V a similar but marginally harder recoiling weapon to the 75 mm M5 in the far lighter Mosquito. but they discontinued the use after 3 inch rocket projectiles came into service.
No matter how bad it was historically, I will always love the duck.
The aircraft was at the forefront of aviation technology. It has a gyroscopic electronic yaw damper that used a rate gyro to operate rudder trim to damp out yaw. This technology is absolutely essential in jets and in particular swept wing aircraft. In the Hs-129 the yaw damper brought under control the yaw due to the heavy Armour.
It’s quite Adorable
@@williamzk9083I don’t Understand most of that
But if True
Great Write
It wasn't that bad historically.
Wood used correctly was the "Carbon fiber" of WWII. Look at the US PT boat and the Mosquito. The use of wood composite was stronger and lighter than metal.
Later in the war FW190D had wooden props
Bismarcks armor was half inch (13mm) woodan reinforced wood which was as strong as 320 millimeters of steel i swear.
She had special woodan armor everywhere. She could lift out of the water in strong seas as she was that light.
Stronger then metal... Riiiiight
The original motivation was to reduce consumption of strategic materials. In that regard, the Mosquito was a failure. It required large quantities of scarce high grade lumber shipped from around the world on scarce shipping capacity. Glued together using scarce adhesive by skilled labor whose production capacity was not expandable. The resulting airplane was of such high performance that thus could be overlooked.
The XP-77 wasn't a resource hog, but also didn't have the needed performance.
@@topcatcoast2coast579 It's a difficult one. Wood has poor resistance to penetration. But compared to aluminium a section 4 to 10 times the thickness has the same weight, between about half and equal flexural strength, and therefore higher stiffness weight for weight. Also, it does not have a fatigue life. In many ways wood is more like epoxy loaded carbon fibre.
Marcos built a number of sports cars with plywood bodies on the Mosquito principle and they proved adequate. The main problem in the UK is water penetration.
Now consider that at that era panels were riveted causing a lack of ultimate strength whereas wood sections could be continuously glued.
Swings and roundabouts.
Firing that that ginormous 7.5 cm Pak from that plane must have been quite the experience.
Ahh.. the Duck. It was a panzer quacker…
(with apologies to Squire)..
'can opener' was her nickname :)
I particularly enjoy the quack of the great Bavarian duck.
We have tank destroyer at home...
*(Cannon Fires)* QUACK!
We are fortunate that them krouts spent so much effort on all sorts of different sizes of weapons, planes, vehicles & such... trying to get ammo, spare parts & people with the knowledge to operate & or repair really created a nightmare for those tasked with getting things done.
All that Work with Good Fighter Jets
Godbless The Predictable and limited Logistics Routes They took
Most Jets were Destroyed before even having a Chance to See Combat
Sad loss of Art
Fairly Good Ending considering who lost
It's amazing this aircraft did so well on such underpowered engines
That disclaimer at 14:09 is why I trust your honesty, whereas I've started to unsubscribe from other channels that put any old footage or video game renders or outright AI and represent that it's original and correct. 👍
Heh, Bf-110 also had external gauges on the engines. Nothing new under the Luftwaffe! 🙂
He-111 did too.
works...
@@MaticTheProtoHardly an ideal solution
Hs-129B was actually well-liked. Had some effort been put into developing the 14M engine, by German engineers, perhaps the Achilles heel, insufficient power, could have been overcome, rendering a truly formidable ground attack a/c. This would have required a lot of commitment early on, in order to have the solution in time to actually alter the Eastern Front tactical situation.
Quite a few potentially excellent and useful designs were ruined by assigning to them poor or older generation engines. The Focke-Wulf 187, the Ju 252 (which became the Ju 352 when the Jumo 211 was swapped out for BMW 323) and of course the Hs 129.
The Luftwaffe had an engine problem in that while the DB601 and Jumo 211 were excellent engines they were in short supply by the time they were in good supply they were too weak and the BMW 801 became the new want to have engine. Assigning so many DB601 to the Me 110 instead of Fw 187 was a mistake.
@@williamzk9083I don’t Know most of those
But if You’re not Lying
Incredible Write:
@@williamzk9083Agreed. The FW187 was a great plane that as well as being a great heavy fighter could have been (something groan worthy coming!) Kurt Tank's tank buster! 😅
@@williamzk9083 I think BMW 801 was entirely too much engine for the 129's airframe--too much power, too much diameter, weight and fuel consumption. But an engine the ~size of the 14M, with power in the 1,000-1400 range, ideally around 1,200, and concommitant wider chord props, would have been transformative. Admittedly a tall order, given the lead time required to essentially remake that diminutive 14 cyl engine.
I believe the French had an upgrade project in the works, making about 900 hp, but I don't think the French had any incentive to help the German war effort.
@@josephstabile9154 The Hs 129 was a little too small to begin, the gun sight couldn’t fit in the cockpit and was outside. With a little upscaling would have greatly helped the design carry heavy weapons. I was thinking of the BMW Bramo 323 with 1000hp and 1200hp with MW50. The 14m would be better due to lower drag. The key is to have an engine that is in plentiful supply by 1940.
I've always wondered why the Argus used those finned spinners. Since they'd be robbing power from the engine, otherwise, there must be a purpose to them
IIRC they were a fairly novel self-contained propeller pitch-control mechanism. Instead of tapping off pressurized oil from the engine to actuate the pitch servo, the Argus propellers used the finned nose of the spinner as a sort of windmill, using the differential speed between the prop and the finned section to drive the pitch control mechanism.
The B-17 was not outdated, it was just not capable of defending itself. As soon as long range fighters became available, things got much better. As for the P-40, it saw action through out the war. Specially in the South Pacific. Its problem was a lack of multi stage turbo super charges. But it was still a good rugged aircraft.
I'm not saying the b17 was bad or anything but doesn't that make it outdated?
Something can be outdated and still perform good under certain circumstances
Great video, as usual. Appreciate all the nerdy little details.
Designing a plane around a specific engine was then and still today, very common.
Despite the wacky aspects of the plane it is still one of my favorites....probably because its wacky and unique in concept. Everyone tried big gun on big plane but only the hs129 was big gun small plane
Really well done and informative video. Thanks for making it! I really appreciate it and enjoy your channel.
I can confirm on the small gun/ big bullet question. When visiting the states, a friend there let me shoot through his gun collection. One of them was a tiny Derringer pistol loaded with .45 long colt ammunition. The tip of the bullets was at the end of the barrel, while the grip was shorter than my hand. I had a bruise on my hand for about a week.
23:22 I built the model in early 80s. This looks like the box art.
You're right, the airfix hs 129, with the outstanding art of the late Roy Cross. I really hope Airfix release the hs 129 as a vintage classic soon.
First of all, congratulations for your beautiful videos. Incredible how the whole work (the historical presentation as well your narration) is wonderful!
I'd like to add that (I don't know exactly why) I got 'touched' by this particular video (the Hs 129). In really, perhaps because it is great to hear that the WWII planes were not only 'thoroughbreds'
Well done;
The plane was not underpowered, for what it was supposed to do. The problem, the real one, was the wear down of those engines as the planes was delivered to Tunisia without sand filters, despite a full depot being full of those in france! It was a similar experience of the Bread BA65 in Africa which had engines so wore down to be almost unable to take off in the hot weather.
As the plane got in Russia it did much better: it was not a dog fighter but it was not meant to be. It was slightly slower then a Sturmovik bu it was able to hug the ground as no other plane, often frustrating the enemies trying get on it's tail It also was not uncommon that the Hs129 hit the turret of a tank it was shooting with the tail, but none was lost that way.
By 1944 being low become too dangerous, and due to lack of air cover by fighter screens, the HS129 become too vulnerable so it was replaced by the Fw190, which was better suited to defend itself. This being said the Fw was never able to be as effective ans the Hs and the Stuka against armoured targets.
Remember that they've sent HS-129 into africa but kinda forgot sending antitank ammo for mk101. Germans were pretty shit at logistics
For when you need to unleash the quacken.
There is something ironically about a heavily armed (a variant of Pak 40!!) and heavy armored plane with super weak engines. You can really see that the designers had to come up with solutions to make it work, like external gauges due to cramped cockpit.
I built an awesome tamiya model of this as a kid. i remember thinking it looked so cool
Boeing saves money by using fewer bolts on their jets.
Also deleting anyone who has safetly concerns....
Also by deleting anyone who raises safety concerns...
@@lordterra1377 that's the expensive part
@@teehasheestower
It's alot cheaper than grounding all your aircraft and fixing the problems lol
😂😂
I recognise the Roy Cross Airfix box art at 23.59.
Thanks for this. I've always had a soft spot for Henschel's aircraft, despite their lack of attention, with most Luftwaffe enthusiasts. Since you've done this post, maybe you could do one about the Henschel Hs123. That aircraft saw service up to 1944 in the ground attack role, DESPITE it's obsolescence.
Underpowered for most of its life. The Argus engines worked OK for the Fw-189 observation planes but the Hs-129 was a lot heavier. The Gnome-Rhone was …adequate, (though the counter rotation feature was helpful for a twin-engined type, but probably caused logistics roblems) but rather over sensitive to dirt and grit, deploying it to dirt fields in Russia or North Africa …. (Unlike the Hs-123 which coped with Russia quite well)
Part of the control issue might have been the ridiculously short control stick in a very cramped cockpit (the engine instruments were on the inner face of the nacelles, and the gunsight was external) giving the pilot very little leverage.
While the Hs-129B-3 with the PAK 75 was impressive, only about 12 were built.
Great video, well researched! Henschel was actually quite a large company, their main business being making locomotives (Steam engines). But I imagine that their aero division was not that big.
That'd be a job, on the the B1 model variant, having to tap the instrument gauges to unfreeze them.
Also like u videos , i want more , what is next plane ? He219 😅?
I built a sick 1/32 model of one of these by zoukei mura, with a brass barrel for the 75mm. It was a fantastic build, and the plane itself is such an odd but cool shape.
I can think of a 4th category for the discount bin. It may be the last few of a now discontinued item. They needed the shelf space for the new item so it goes into the bargain bin to make room.
The french radial engines by Gnome Rhone were also used on the Messerschmitt Gigant transport plane they were not bad, very good engines in fact! But germans did not have the right tools for overhaul and so they sucked when used by the Germans.
If I remember correctly, the French engines were licensed built versions of the Bristol Jupiter series, which had an outstanding service history.
French screw threads were slightly different from DIN ones at that era, which would not have helped.
9:58 In case you're wondering about the fins on the Argus 410's spinner, that part of a wind-driven generator intended to supply DC current to the variable prop pitch mechanism.
What were the vanes on the spinners of the earlier engines for?
Variable pitch for prop blades.
can you highlight the back ground picture? great stuff.
On the subject of small-arms "power" and more specifically, recoil, mentioned from the little tangent at the end of the video:
While the Mosin in 7.62x54r may not be the most powerful round out there, if you fired it in an unmodified Mosin with the steel butt-plate, it's still on the higher end of what most people consider tolerable felt recoil. I can shoot a Mosin pretty well, but it will leave a bit of a bruise after more than a handful of rounds.
Opinion of a modeller,Ignition ring on rear making wiring Soo much fun.
Always found this such an appealing & good looking little aircraft... but glad I never had to fight a war in it! ( especially with that nuts 75mm strapped to it!) seems a silly & not untypical waste of resources as per a lot of German ww2 production 😉
British aircraft designers in WW2 considered all factors for their engines: radial v in-line? new design v older design? high altitude v low altitude? They considered all these factors and then thought: F--- it - stick in a Merlin and we can't go wrong ;-)
Or a Hercules if you wanted radial.
Considering the mosquito had two 1200 hp engines the Argus weren’t very buff
The (in)famous Brewster Buffalo runs into the same story. They used a somewhat weaker and older engine compared to what Grumman put in their prototype wildcat. In prototype form, the F2A actually did better than the future wildcat, but when actual military fittings like armor, weapons, and self-sealing tanks were added - performance dropped off sharply. Thus the F4 proves to be the carrier plane of choice. (Though the Finns found it quite good, when you removed the extra weight needed for the navy.)
If it's a low demand engine, stop production and change over the assembly line to produce high demand engines.
Yes, I didn't understand that either
Which makes sense on a longer time frame but doesn’t make sense if you’re trying to put out as many planes as possible as fast as possible.
@@elkpants1280
The DB600 series had been in production since the mid 30s. It was an awesome engine from the get go.
The b3 variant with that 75mm cannon looks so ridiculous that it could be one of these fantasy weapons out of an action movie.
I can imagine that the airframe would simply disintegrate after it fired ten rounds.
"pocketsized .50 caliber"
Nah, worse, MUCH worse. There has actually been made .50 cal revolvers, you handle them right or you break your wrists on firing, but they still actually work better than you would expect.
However, the BIG problem with the 75mm cannon was having only 12 rounds of ammo...
Oh, and the competition actually also included the Blohm und Voss-141, the most epically nonsymmetrical plane of the war.
Pocketsized .50 calibers don't normally have long travel recoil systems.
@@obsidianjane4413 Some do actually.
I've fired one.
Totally absurd and almost uncontrollable because even with the recoil damping system, it just made the recoil weirdly slow and drawn out.
The point however was that the 75mm cannon, its recoil was so bad that if the aircraft emptied its magazine too quickly, it could literally crash from lack of airspeed.
I wonder if they used the Cessna Skymaster layout if performance would have been better.
Wonder if they could have been used as formation destroyers like the me-410
*_Designing and developing_* an engine, intended for low-demand, sounds like a project to keep a father-in-law's factory financed. I'd have liked a lot more about that Argus As 410 engine project. In the event of war, using resources to make a "low demand" engine sounds 'shady' (presumably the needs of civil aviation have shrunk, making it "lowest demand").
Interesting video. However, would you please add 'chapters' to make it easier to review parts?
Best Wishes. ☮
Such a cool looking plane imo , I built the airfix model when I was a kid , tankbuster
Looked at from certain angles at the front, the design can be compared to the modern day Frogfoot which fulfills the same role.
The combined production of the Merlin was 168,086, not counting the 9000 produced that were the Meteor version for tanks (which makes it 177,068 - so more than the R1830?).
So... What were the little "fans" on the initial engines?
Anyone know why there are fins on the spinner?
cool :)
Fu-cki-foff is the most hilarious pronunciation of Fockewulf I've ever heard 😂😂😂😂
Does War Thunder model the gauges on the engine nacelles?
Yes
If I ever get my Dream of World War 2 Transformers toys.. I'd like ones of these with the 70mm cannon to be one of them as it would make a lovely rifle for the robot mode too. & looks nice with something like a Stukka.
When you speak electronics, you referred to what? I want to make clear in my mind what was electronic in analog bord.
The tank armor thickness issue is remedied by attacking from the rear.
T-34s and KV-1s had nearly as thick rear armor as the front.
@@obsidianjane4413 True except T34 was only 30mm rear of turret and 15mm top. And all tanks vulnerable on engine deck.
Like to see more of that scene at 22:55. A model diorama artist could spend many hours on all that.😊. You can bet if the plane had ANY mechanical, that 75mm cannon is gone. Kursk. Hey!! Do Kursk!! Lots of Cool Logo A/C there.
This plane's nickname (Duck) is a double-edged sword. One is that it looks like a duck with the shape and color of the nose and the second is that it literally is a sitting duck to enemy fire. At least as far as I know it
Most attackers were sitting ducks against enemy fighters and are to this day. Pilots were more conserned by enemy flak than fighters due to hs-129 being pretty difficult to spot and engage on extremely low altidutdes by enemy fighters.
So it was some use.
But it wouldn't have been on any front where the enemy had effective fighters.
Oooooo gime a copy of Duke! I want that.
This but with ju288 engines thanks you
Somehow twin-blade propellers looks odd on a late 30's design.
The Germans are extremely innovative and had to make do with much less resources than the all lies, that is basically what lost them the war overwhelming numerical superiority in men and materials!
Germany really hated it to use more than one engine on a plane.
10 MINUTES WOOOO NEW RECORD
Edit: ***10 minutes posted ago
4:12 me who has worked on steel , wood and aluminium trawlers ......... Wood does have alot going for it I'd rate it much higher than Aluminium and not far if not equal to steel upto a certain size , eventually you're going to want steel . However this is probably the opposite of what you'd want on an aircraft
I remember reading that the Germans tried using the French made Gnome 14M radial on a FW 189. But it crashed on its first flight. From what I have read. This was not a popular engine with the pilots who used this engine. They were very prone to break downs.
Its OG Duke Nukem 1 and 2 or nothing😅 also good vid. I had no idea about the 189C and Gods almighty what a death trap! They ruined a perfectly good plane
Just today I had the displeasure of seeing a new post on the WT subreddit talking about the gun jettison system. So many braindead armchair experts claimed the system was dumb or useless for a variety of nonsensical reasons...
That's like a A 10
They were popular in Russia but never enough of them
The Hs 129 ,with 2 poor engines, should have tested with 4 low powered engines - 2 engines per narcel ,in a pusher and puller configuration. That might have worked ????? maybe The large 75mm cannon needed recoil springs so to not effect the flight of the 129.
German aircraft like to overheat that way
What are you talking about the B17 was used right up to the end of the war.
The high unit price, low payload, and comparatively short range led the Airforce prefer the B24, especially in Asia. At the end of the war there was a certain overflow of unused B-17's.
@@marcusott2973
The B24 does seem to have been the better of the two.
Though neither was great.
@alanpennie Cooperate Army Aircorps preferred the B-24 because it was cheaper to build and had a larger payload. The crews preferred the B-17 because it could take more punishment.
But as you say, both are not great.
@marcusott2973
Your reading comprension needs work
75mm cannon? It would've worked, had they moved the engines to the rear of the fuselage, and split the tail... :v
For the algorithm
The German Whirlwind.
..or a Bathtub with 2 "Frogs"?
^well..better than the first Junkers (J.I not 87!)?
Yooo, add super thanks. I would have paid.
Supposedly had the flying characteristics of a Catamaran.
17:52
In your next video could you please develop an analogy around the sex enhancement products hawked on UA-cam?
DNF is indeed a desolate wasteland no one wants
What’s DNF?
Did not finish
Hope you learned something - Teaching me something See ya
I suspect that the HS-129 was the inspiration for the A-10
So much for Kraut Space Magic, though admittedly it did a decent job.
Duke Nukem Forever was not a bargain bin Game
Ahh , i wanted to do the ( bro fel off ) meme
German planes....with under powered engines...I would never
German aircraft development during WW2 was the war's lolcow.
It was nearly all junk.
Great concept poorly executed if they were just a little patient they could have gotten an excellent aircraft strapping a 75 mm to it not such a great idea if the Germans had focus on developing armoured piercing rounds for their 20 mm cannons and add to ground rockets it might have been more effective historically the Germans would have gotten a pretty good tank Buster..
Do not fry, please.
vid starts at 3:00
1st 3 min has some bad info
Do you ever get to the point?
4 mins of telling us about bargain basement shopping ? really ? in the future I think i can safely skip the first 2 or 3 mins
I actually enjoyed it. I don’t know why, yet I did.
It’s called context. It matters 😂
Feel free to make your own video.