Dominion doctrine and philosophy embodied in a single design. It is this view of the disposability of solids that was both a strength and a weakness. Dominion doctrine works pretty well against small fry in the Gamma Quadrant, but much less so against peer powers who had the numbers and quality to chew up Bugs by the 10s of 1000s. The curious thing, however, was that the Dominion really didn't adapt to failure because the Founders' cosmological philosophy of the universe wouldn't allow them to admit they were wrong, or that solids weren't disposable. They could have built their own version of the Defiant, but didn't. Combined with their self-reinforced assumptions on the nature of the species they were fighting, there is a reason their tactical prowess couldn't overcome strategic and operational shortcomings. It is not a fluke that the Dominion war effort peaked under Dukat (Damar did well too, considering), who understood his enemies, and husbanded his resources because as willing as he was to sacrifice millions of troops, he didn't see them as without value. As a consequence, the Cardassians fought better, while it can be argued that even Dominion troops fought better because they were more likely to survive battles and learn from their mistakes. Damar's quite competence mitigated the worst of Weyoun's awful operational instincts, and forced a stalemate despite a huge shift in resources when the Romulans entered the War. But as soon as the Founder delegates day-to-day operations to the Breen, and takes over Strategic planning, the Dominion loses after a brief period of ascendency thanks to Breen dampening weapons. Her entire Strategic plan, premised on waiting out the Coalition was deeply flawed, something the Cardassians understood, even Legate Broca, because they knew their enemies, while to the Founder one solid was as beneath contempt as another. It wasn't limited to the Founders, but an attitude ingrained in their genetically-engineered Yes-men. Their whole society was designed to act, not think, even when it was running off a cliff. The fools. Anyway, nice battle!
Numbers win wars. Dominion can crank out a lot of these things, very quickly. Each crewed by completely disposable troops. That was the reason Sisko realised early they had to go for the shipyards, and Ketracel-White facilities, if they wanted to have any chance. And why he argued so strongly to push on to Cardassia and end it, even knowing how costly it would be, when the Romulans wanted to 'annihilate the Dominion fleets one by one' as they came. Destroy 1 fleet of these, 2 more show up. Destroy 2, 4 more show up. Chewing up Bugs is all well and good, until you choke on them. Because they NEVER stop coming until you cut the source. Say what you will about the Dominion doctrine, and it has it's flaws... but from the Founders' perspective, it worked. Until it didn't, when they came up against enemies who adapted, tactically. And even then - honestly, if not for the Section 31's plague, and internecine schism between the Cardassians and the Dominion... they would've probably come out on top, long-term. Through sheer attrition-warfare. Just their logistical ability to replenish losses is extreme. Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics. This is what I predict would've happened: Romulans would've cut and run, in another... 3-4 months, as soon as they ran out of Reman fodder to fill the trenches with, and all their oversized lumbering stupid Warbirds got wiped out, with no easy way to replace their fleet. They would've barricaded Romulus, and waited for the end. Probably surrendering ultimately, and becoming Vorta 2.0 slave-race. Klingons would've fought to the last, as Klingons do, and under Martok's leadership they would be extremely effective, but... again - they don't have the numbers. In the end - Kronos would've been glassed. We would've done the same, and we would've lasted the longest. Federation is too big to easily conquer. And we've got our own numbers to throw. I predict Section 31 would've taken over the Federation council, re-introduced genetic engineering and augment programs, in order to start pumping out our own supersoldiers to go toe-to-toe with the Jem'Hadar. Smaller and more heavily armed ship designs would be introduced, aimed towards easy replacement if needed. All core Federation worlds would've fallen, one by one, Earth included, but that would've just made us more desperate and less principled. Colony worlds would become fortresses. The rest of the Federation would've become a pure military dictatorship, and the fighting would've dragged on for a couple more years. Now the end result... idk. If Section 31 got creative enough, with a more efficient anti-Founder genocide virus, before we got overwhelmed... maybe there would be some kind of forced stalemate, ending up in negotiated peace - temporary, of course, until both sides were ready for Round Two. If not... RIP. And that's still not counting the bit players. Tholians, Tzenkethi, Talarians... who knows which side they'd back. Bottom line - the Dominion War was won, with more then a little luck, and favourable turn of events, for our side.
@@necroticavalon5176 I concur in part, and dissent in part. Logistics and production are a province of both Strategic and Operational levels where the Dominion was seemingly mildly deficient. Whereas it is true that the Dominion capability to build ships was the greatest amongst any of the powers, and using only Cardassian space at that thanks to their advanced replicator and industrial techniques, it wasn't enough for them to out-produce the Coalition. There was a seeming cap in the numbers of ships and men they could produce. By 2375 the Dominion, despite it holding far more Coalition territory than the Coalition held in Cardassia, bottled up in the Chintaka and Septimus systems, they were clearly losing on the shipbuilding curve, probably because, as noted in "In the Pale Moonlight," the Federation took over a year to get its shipyards running optimally, but by mid-2375 they were cranking out ships like crazy. Already by the time the Coalition occupied the primary planets of the Chintaka system, the Dominion was falling behind as seen in the DS9 episode where Weyoun demands that shipyard production increase by 15%, which Damar says would be very difficult. So whereas the Dominion had an advantage in raw numbers, in reality the Bug Ships were simply not enough to recover from their tactical shortcomings. They were well short of choking the Alliance. One notes, that this is the point where we start to see the Dominion lifting some restrictions on equipping Cardassian ships with their weapons, computers, transporters etc. with the trial run of 20 Galor "Type IVs" as well as allowing the Cardassians to experiment with major upgrades to in building prototype Keldon and Galor "Xs," equipped with the best Cardassian tech as well as some Dominion internal systems. The Dominion was desperate to improve the tactical capability of all their ships. Moreover, by the time the Founder reaches out to the Breen it is clear the Dominion is losing. They've lost ground, their offensives have ground to a halt, and they faced slowly being ground down. The Founder believes they could only restore true quantitative advantage by ceasing ALL offensive operations, and allowing the relatively small size of the Cardassian Union, and its fortifications, to allow for a strong enough defensive density to truly economize their forces to allow a proper reserve to be formed, something that couldn't happen occupying a larger footprint and engaging in costly offensive warfare. It is also noteworthy that she has to adopt this position even AFTER the Breen enter the War and despite their sizeable fleet (according to Damar), it is not enough to change the balance of power. Again, probably because the Federation and Romulan shipyards are at peak production. However, her strategic and operational assumptions are incorrect for two major reasons: 1) Whereas it is true that "shortening the line" allowing for an economy of force would allow the Dominion to rebuild their reserve to the point they reach a critical mass of quantitative superiority, she doesn't take into account that the Coalition can also shorten their lines by no longer having to defend against offensives, and that they too can also build up a reserve. 2) This leads to her second mistaken assumption: That the Feds, Klings and Rommies will simply let the Dominion rebuild their forces. She makes this assumption because she doesn't understand her enemy. 2A) She also doesn't consider the morale of the Cardassians and Breen in fighting a purely static war, assuming they are content to follow the Dominion line without demur.
@@necroticavalon5176 I might also add that the Breen alliance is also a curious short-coming on the part of the Founder. It seems evident that she offered the Breen a whole lot, and undermined their alliance with the Cardassians, for just a single toss of the dice since one has to infer that the Breen shipbuilding capabilities is limited considering her plan. She rolled the dice that the Breen dampening weapon could win the War because the Breen themselves from an economic and military standpoint evidently wasn't enough to completely balance the shortcomings in numbers with the Fed Alliance. In other words she made two major mistakes: 1) She employed a Tactical Level solution to fix Strategic and Operational Level problems. This is the literal Wunderwaffen Fallacy. 2) Even when the Breen finally had the game-changing Tactical Wunderwaffen that could have upset the Operational balance, she didn't strike with everything at once deep into enemy territory to force the enemy fleets to give battle. Instead of using the Breen as spearheads, she wanted the entire Dominion fleet to have the weapon. This is beyond stupid as well as the assumption the Federation wouldn't find a way to adapt. Dukat NEVER makes that mistake if he were still in power. Nor would Damar... speaking of Damar, she also allowed the minor annoyance of Damar's rebellion to keep them from attacking in force.
@@crownprincesebastianjohano7069 I will agree that the Dominion waited too long to open up the valves on their tech, for the Cardassians. They probably didnt want to give their new 'allies' anything too advanced. That being said, you didn't take into account the mindset. Jem'Hadar simply don't care, and have no concept of morale. Winning or losing, they just keep coming. And for that kind of mentality, the Bug Ship is perfect. If it's outmatched, just ram it into the enemy (like they did at Chin'Toka, where a few Bugs wiped out half of Martok's attack fleet, just by crashing into them). That's the advantage of swarm-tactics, where everything is disposable. And it takes much less time to build one of those, then even a Sabre or a B'Rel, for Feds and Klingons, respectively. So I just don't see the Allies ever out-producing the Dominion through numbers. That's not happening. Even if they did - the crews are not expendable. Dominion crews are. So you'd have more ships, then ppl to put on those ships. Then what? My approach to solving that, would be relying much more on fighters and smaller ships mixed in with them. We CAN out-produce them in fighters, and they need only 1 person to fly. You lose a fighter, you lose 1 person at a time. Easily replacable. Peregrines for the Fed, Scorpions for the Rommies, etc. Whole attack wings of them. Tie up the Bugs in fighter swarms, screening our bigger ships from kamikaze runs, while the fighters chew the Bugs to pieces. Match their swarms, with our swarms, while our bigger ships slug it out with theirs without risk of ramming. In fact that's where I can see the only fleet combat value of the D'Deridex warbird - as a fighter carrier. Can you imagine how many fighters could fit inside that thing, if it had proper hangars? Easily a thousand, and equipment for maintenance and refueling of them. I do agree that the Founder's short-term solutions were a strategic mistake. Including not taking full advantage of the Breen's dampening weapon while it was still 'fresh'. She promised the Breen a lot, clearly at the expense of Cardassian interests, and that didn't sit well with the Cardies. So she herself was in a way responsible for the rebellion (and it wasn't a "minor annoyance", it was aimed directly at sabotaging Dominion strategic infrastructure). Fortunate for us. The point remains though, that I don't see the war turning out like it did, without some seriously fortuitous turns of events that happened to help us.
Could the bird of prey and Defiant be modded to prevent firing the forward weapons until they are fully charged? The biggest issue with both ships is they fire one volley, then all they can do is fire a single shot every few seconds which looks weird and ridiculous. There’s another version of the Defiant out there with far better pulse weapons (I think sci fi king made it) but it’s shields are too strong. That version looks and feels far more canon
Yeah, Sci Fi's Version is great. Love the aft torpedoes too. I think it is not a mod issue with the pulse weapons. It is a matter of trigger discipline. Maneuver while charging, then charge the enemy and get in close before firing quantums and then concentrating firepower in point blank blasts at a single shield face to inflict damage. Then run, use aft-torpedoes and the dorsal phaser array as harassment fire. Same strategy with the BOP. Pulse weapons used on the shied face not weakened by torpedoes are wasted. And these attack ships are so maneuverable that damage should be negligible on the defense.
Like I keep saying, the BoP has too much shielding for what it is. But since I don't see any other way to balance it, and it is supposed to be a little stronger then the Bugship... ehh. It works I guess. I suppose that aft torpedo on the Bug balances it out a little, at least. Good fight, definitely easier on the Klingon side.
I agree, its capabilities in the shows are ridiculous for what it is. By rights it should be a pretty weak ship given its size, despite the Klingon's combat bias. As it is, I've tried to balance the Bop to be reflective of the shows have capabilities more in line with what it should be. All a WIP of course 👍
@@adamlee2111 I think you should make the B'Rel class the true frigate (and lose those aft torpedoes on it, that still annoys me XD - maybe put a single beam or something), and the BoP even lower then the Frigate - by naval terms, a Corvette. One forward torp, two light disruptor cannons. 50% less shielding. And put another in-between ship as a Destroyer to replace the B'Rel... I'm thinking one of those Raptor-style designs from STO, if models are available for BC. Or just make the K'Tinga a true Destroyer, and put another ship a step up - like the Fek'hlar from STC3. (if model can be found), under the Vor'Cha. As for the shows, we can say that it was the B'Rel class that did all those feats, not the smallest BoP. They used the same model for it, so... it's technically the truth!
@@necroticavalon5176 Funnily enough I'm testing the B'Rel without aft torpedoes as we speak I will use the K'Tinga as a destroyer, I would rather avoid non-canon designs where possible. Just curious, where would you place these ships compared to Fed ships? Eg what Fed class would a B'Rel be equal to in your opinion?
@@adamlee2111 Yea I don't think it is possible - there is a big hole between the K'Tinga and the Vor'Cha, that non Alpha Canon ships fill. You'll need to dip into Beta Canon for one. My vote is the Fek'hlar, since it looks like a stepping stone between the two. Anyway placements: BoP has no direct Fed counterpart small enough. Unless you go all the way back to Beta Canon of 23rd century and dig out an Akula or something, and say that it's a refit - and even that is too big, honestly, but the closest thing I can think of). B'Rel would be equivalent to a Miranda/Sabre. K'tinga would be about equivalent to a Norway/Steamrunner (assuming you resize those two to be Destroyers, not Light Cruisers). Maybe a little weaker. Fek'hlar would match the Excelsior, more or less. Or more accurately, be somewhere in between an Intrepid and an Excelsior. And Vor'Cha should be a little stronger then the Ambassador (and a little weaker then a Nebula). My best estimate :) Or if you also introduce Starfleet Runabouts (especially those with the torpedo pod), I'd put the BoP slightly above them! XD And not far above, at that. EDIT: NVM i got one. The ship Chakotay used as his Maquis raider - that's about the right size for a BoP! Not sure if that's the official Starfleet design though (it's much bigger then the Peregrine fighter, but looks the same). No idea what it's called. But it is very much Alpha canon, so... you be the judge.
You maneuvered that attack ship expertly, staying behind/below the BOP so you're not in its line of fire. Brilliant
Dominion doctrine and philosophy embodied in a single design. It is this view of the disposability of solids that was both a strength and a weakness. Dominion doctrine works pretty well against small fry in the Gamma Quadrant, but much less so against peer powers who had the numbers and quality to chew up Bugs by the 10s of 1000s. The curious thing, however, was that the Dominion really didn't adapt to failure because the Founders' cosmological philosophy of the universe wouldn't allow them to admit they were wrong, or that solids weren't disposable. They could have built their own version of the Defiant, but didn't. Combined with their self-reinforced assumptions on the nature of the species they were fighting, there is a reason their tactical prowess couldn't overcome strategic and operational shortcomings. It is not a fluke that the Dominion war effort peaked under Dukat (Damar did well too, considering), who understood his enemies, and husbanded his resources because as willing as he was to sacrifice millions of troops, he didn't see them as without value. As a consequence, the Cardassians fought better, while it can be argued that even Dominion troops fought better because they were more likely to survive battles and learn from their mistakes. Damar's quite competence mitigated the worst of Weyoun's awful operational instincts, and forced a stalemate despite a huge shift in resources when the Romulans entered the War. But as soon as the Founder delegates day-to-day operations to the Breen, and takes over Strategic planning, the Dominion loses after a brief period of ascendency thanks to Breen dampening weapons. Her entire Strategic plan, premised on waiting out the Coalition was deeply flawed, something the Cardassians understood, even Legate Broca, because they knew their enemies, while to the Founder one solid was as beneath contempt as another. It wasn't limited to the Founders, but an attitude ingrained in their genetically-engineered Yes-men. Their whole society was designed to act, not think, even when it was running off a cliff. The fools.
Anyway, nice battle!
They upgraded their capital ships with the new dreadnought but nothing for the attack ships. Why not a new attack ship?
Numbers win wars. Dominion can crank out a lot of these things, very quickly. Each crewed by completely disposable troops. That was the reason Sisko realised early they had to go for the shipyards, and Ketracel-White facilities, if they wanted to have any chance. And why he argued so strongly to push on to Cardassia and end it, even knowing how costly it would be, when the Romulans wanted to 'annihilate the Dominion fleets one by one' as they came. Destroy 1 fleet of these, 2 more show up. Destroy 2, 4 more show up. Chewing up Bugs is all well and good, until you choke on them. Because they NEVER stop coming until you cut the source.
Say what you will about the Dominion doctrine, and it has it's flaws... but from the Founders' perspective, it worked. Until it didn't, when they came up against enemies who adapted, tactically. And even then - honestly, if not for the Section 31's plague, and internecine schism between the Cardassians and the Dominion... they would've probably come out on top, long-term. Through sheer attrition-warfare. Just their logistical ability to replenish losses is extreme. Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics.
This is what I predict would've happened: Romulans would've cut and run, in another... 3-4 months, as soon as they ran out of Reman fodder to fill the trenches with, and all their oversized lumbering stupid Warbirds got wiped out, with no easy way to replace their fleet. They would've barricaded Romulus, and waited for the end. Probably surrendering ultimately, and becoming Vorta 2.0 slave-race. Klingons would've fought to the last, as Klingons do, and under Martok's leadership they would be extremely effective, but... again - they don't have the numbers. In the end - Kronos would've been glassed. We would've done the same, and we would've lasted the longest. Federation is too big to easily conquer. And we've got our own numbers to throw. I predict Section 31 would've taken over the Federation council, re-introduced genetic engineering and augment programs, in order to start pumping out our own supersoldiers to go toe-to-toe with the Jem'Hadar. Smaller and more heavily armed ship designs would be introduced, aimed towards easy replacement if needed. All core Federation worlds would've fallen, one by one, Earth included, but that would've just made us more desperate and less principled. Colony worlds would become fortresses. The rest of the Federation would've become a pure military dictatorship, and the fighting would've dragged on for a couple more years. Now the end result... idk. If Section 31 got creative enough, with a more efficient anti-Founder genocide virus, before we got overwhelmed... maybe there would be some kind of forced stalemate, ending up in negotiated peace - temporary, of course, until both sides were ready for Round Two. If not... RIP. And that's still not counting the bit players. Tholians, Tzenkethi, Talarians... who knows which side they'd back.
Bottom line - the Dominion War was won, with more then a little luck, and favourable turn of events, for our side.
@@necroticavalon5176 I concur in part, and dissent in part. Logistics and production are a province of both Strategic and Operational levels where the Dominion was seemingly mildly deficient. Whereas it is true that the Dominion capability to build ships was the greatest amongst any of the powers, and using only Cardassian space at that thanks to their advanced replicator and industrial techniques, it wasn't enough for them to out-produce the Coalition. There was a seeming cap in the numbers of ships and men they could produce. By 2375 the Dominion, despite it holding far more Coalition territory than the Coalition held in Cardassia, bottled up in the Chintaka and Septimus systems, they were clearly losing on the shipbuilding curve, probably because, as noted in "In the Pale Moonlight," the Federation took over a year to get its shipyards running optimally, but by mid-2375 they were cranking out ships like crazy. Already by the time the Coalition occupied the primary planets of the Chintaka system, the Dominion was falling behind as seen in the DS9 episode where Weyoun demands that shipyard production increase by 15%, which Damar says would be very difficult.
So whereas the Dominion had an advantage in raw numbers, in reality the Bug Ships were simply not enough to recover from their tactical shortcomings. They were well short of choking the Alliance. One notes, that this is the point where we start to see the Dominion lifting some restrictions on equipping Cardassian ships with their weapons, computers, transporters etc. with the trial run of 20 Galor "Type IVs" as well as allowing the Cardassians to experiment with major upgrades to in building prototype Keldon and Galor "Xs," equipped with the best Cardassian tech as well as some Dominion internal systems. The Dominion was desperate to improve the tactical capability of all their ships.
Moreover, by the time the Founder reaches out to the Breen it is clear the Dominion is losing. They've lost ground, their offensives have ground to a halt, and they faced slowly being ground down. The Founder believes they could only restore true quantitative advantage by ceasing ALL offensive operations, and allowing the relatively small size of the Cardassian Union, and its fortifications, to allow for a strong enough defensive density to truly economize their forces to allow a proper reserve to be formed, something that couldn't happen occupying a larger footprint and engaging in costly offensive warfare. It is also noteworthy that she has to adopt this position even AFTER the Breen enter the War and despite their sizeable fleet (according to Damar), it is not enough to change the balance of power. Again, probably because the Federation and Romulan shipyards are at peak production.
However, her strategic and operational assumptions are incorrect for two major reasons: 1) Whereas it is true that "shortening the line" allowing for an economy of force would allow the Dominion to rebuild their reserve to the point they reach a critical mass of quantitative superiority, she doesn't take into account that the Coalition can also shorten their lines by no longer having to defend against offensives, and that they too can also build up a reserve. 2) This leads to her second mistaken assumption: That the Feds, Klings and Rommies will simply let the Dominion rebuild their forces. She makes this assumption because she doesn't understand her enemy. 2A) She also doesn't consider the morale of the Cardassians and Breen in fighting a purely static war, assuming they are content to follow the Dominion line without demur.
@@necroticavalon5176 I might also add that the Breen alliance is also a curious short-coming on the part of the Founder. It seems evident that she offered the Breen a whole lot, and undermined their alliance with the Cardassians, for just a single toss of the dice since one has to infer that the Breen shipbuilding capabilities is limited considering her plan. She rolled the dice that the Breen dampening weapon could win the War because the Breen themselves from an economic and military standpoint evidently wasn't enough to completely balance the shortcomings in numbers with the Fed Alliance. In other words she made two major mistakes: 1) She employed a Tactical Level solution to fix Strategic and Operational Level problems. This is the literal Wunderwaffen Fallacy. 2) Even when the Breen finally had the game-changing Tactical Wunderwaffen that could have upset the Operational balance, she didn't strike with everything at once deep into enemy territory to force the enemy fleets to give battle. Instead of using the Breen as spearheads, she wanted the entire Dominion fleet to have the weapon. This is beyond stupid as well as the assumption the Federation wouldn't find a way to adapt. Dukat NEVER makes that mistake if he were still in power. Nor would Damar... speaking of Damar, she also allowed the minor annoyance of Damar's rebellion to keep them from attacking in force.
@@crownprincesebastianjohano7069 I will agree that the Dominion waited too long to open up the valves on their tech, for the Cardassians. They probably didnt want to give their new 'allies' anything too advanced.
That being said, you didn't take into account the mindset. Jem'Hadar simply don't care, and have no concept of morale. Winning or losing, they just keep coming. And for that kind of mentality, the Bug Ship is perfect. If it's outmatched, just ram it into the enemy (like they did at Chin'Toka, where a few Bugs wiped out half of Martok's attack fleet, just by crashing into them). That's the advantage of swarm-tactics, where everything is disposable. And it takes much less time to build one of those, then even a Sabre or a B'Rel, for Feds and Klingons, respectively. So I just don't see the Allies ever out-producing the Dominion through numbers. That's not happening. Even if they did - the crews are not expendable. Dominion crews are. So you'd have more ships, then ppl to put on those ships. Then what?
My approach to solving that, would be relying much more on fighters and smaller ships mixed in with them. We CAN out-produce them in fighters, and they need only 1 person to fly. You lose a fighter, you lose 1 person at a time. Easily replacable. Peregrines for the Fed, Scorpions for the Rommies, etc. Whole attack wings of them. Tie up the Bugs in fighter swarms, screening our bigger ships from kamikaze runs, while the fighters chew the Bugs to pieces. Match their swarms, with our swarms, while our bigger ships slug it out with theirs without risk of ramming. In fact that's where I can see the only fleet combat value of the D'Deridex warbird - as a fighter carrier. Can you imagine how many fighters could fit inside that thing, if it had proper hangars? Easily a thousand, and equipment for maintenance and refueling of them.
I do agree that the Founder's short-term solutions were a strategic mistake. Including not taking full advantage of the Breen's dampening weapon while it was still 'fresh'. She promised the Breen a lot, clearly at the expense of Cardassian interests, and that didn't sit well with the Cardies. So she herself was in a way responsible for the rebellion (and it wasn't a "minor annoyance", it was aimed directly at sabotaging Dominion strategic infrastructure). Fortunate for us. The point remains though, that I don't see the war turning out like it did, without some seriously fortuitous turns of events that happened to help us.
Victory is life!
Could the bird of prey and Defiant be modded to prevent firing the forward weapons until they are fully charged? The biggest issue with both ships is they fire one volley, then all they can do is fire a single shot every few seconds which looks weird and ridiculous. There’s another version of the Defiant out there with far better pulse weapons (I think sci fi king made it) but it’s shields are too strong. That version looks and feels far more canon
Yeah, Sci Fi's Version is great. Love the aft torpedoes too. I think it is not a mod issue with the pulse weapons. It is a matter of trigger discipline. Maneuver while charging, then charge the enemy and get in close before firing quantums and then concentrating firepower in point blank blasts at a single shield face to inflict damage. Then run, use aft-torpedoes and the dorsal phaser array as harassment fire. Same strategy with the BOP. Pulse weapons used on the shied face not weakened by torpedoes are wasted. And these attack ships are so maneuverable that damage should be negligible on the defense.
Like I keep saying, the BoP has too much shielding for what it is. But since I don't see any other way to balance it, and it is supposed to be a little stronger then the Bugship... ehh. It works I guess. I suppose that aft torpedo on the Bug balances it out a little, at least.
Good fight, definitely easier on the Klingon side.
I agree, its capabilities in the shows are ridiculous for what it is. By rights it should be a pretty weak ship given its size, despite the Klingon's combat bias. As it is, I've tried to balance the Bop to be reflective of the shows have capabilities more in line with what it should be. All a WIP of course 👍
@@adamlee2111 I think you should make the B'Rel class the true frigate (and lose those aft torpedoes on it, that still annoys me XD - maybe put a single beam or something), and the BoP even lower then the Frigate - by naval terms, a Corvette. One forward torp, two light disruptor cannons. 50% less shielding. And put another in-between ship as a Destroyer to replace the B'Rel... I'm thinking one of those Raptor-style designs from STO, if models are available for BC. Or just make the K'Tinga a true Destroyer, and put another ship a step up - like the Fek'hlar from STC3. (if model can be found), under the Vor'Cha.
As for the shows, we can say that it was the B'Rel class that did all those feats, not the smallest BoP. They used the same model for it, so... it's technically the truth!
@@necroticavalon5176 Funnily enough I'm testing the B'Rel without aft torpedoes as we speak
I will use the K'Tinga as a destroyer, I would rather avoid non-canon designs where possible.
Just curious, where would you place these ships compared to Fed ships? Eg what Fed class would a B'Rel be equal to in your opinion?
@@adamlee2111 Yea I don't think it is possible - there is a big hole between the K'Tinga and the Vor'Cha, that non Alpha Canon ships fill. You'll need to dip into Beta Canon for one. My vote is the Fek'hlar, since it looks like a stepping stone between the two.
Anyway placements: BoP has no direct Fed counterpart small enough. Unless you go all the way back to Beta Canon of 23rd century and dig out an Akula or something, and say that it's a refit - and even that is too big, honestly, but the closest thing I can think of). B'Rel would be equivalent to a Miranda/Sabre. K'tinga would be about equivalent to a Norway/Steamrunner (assuming you resize those two to be Destroyers, not Light Cruisers). Maybe a little weaker. Fek'hlar would match the Excelsior, more or less. Or more accurately, be somewhere in between an Intrepid and an Excelsior. And Vor'Cha should be a little stronger then the Ambassador (and a little weaker then a Nebula).
My best estimate :)
Or if you also introduce Starfleet Runabouts (especially those with the torpedo pod), I'd put the BoP slightly above them! XD And not far above, at that.
EDIT: NVM i got one. The ship Chakotay used as his Maquis raider - that's about the right size for a BoP! Not sure if that's the official Starfleet design though (it's much bigger then the Peregrine fighter, but looks the same). No idea what it's called. But it is very much Alpha canon, so... you be the judge.