Thanks as always for coming on, dude! I'll send you the link for my 3k livestream and you can stop in whenever you want and for however long you want. Happy New Year. I think this is going to be a big year for your channel. :)
The best Drusas Achamian scene was at the end when he walked out to face down the army of Ikuri Conphas. What did Esmi say from her POV. "There he went not as the teacher or the fool but as what he truly is; Drusas Achamian a mandate schoolman and he began to sing and the world burned." paraphrase
Truly an epic Mic-drop! Such a great moment for my favorite character. I'm surprised Kellhus let him walk away. I find myself wondering what will happen to Achamian in Aspect Emperor.
Jordan, congrats on hitting 3K!!! You absolutely deserve it, and I can’t wait to see your channel continue to grow. I feel truly honored by all your shoutouts-you’re the nice ones here! It's just like what Brent said, Second Apocalypse fans are really cool with people disliking the series because we know how polarizing it can be with all its triggering elements. That being said, I really agree with what your sentiments on the sensitive topic's nature of selective outrage. Regarding comparisons between the series and The Hobbit/LOTR, that’s most evident in The Judging Eye-not so much in the rest of the series. As for The Thousandfold Thought, there’s very minimal resolution for most of the main characters, which ties into what Mike pointed out: people often mistakenly view TTT as the conclusion of PON rather than Book 3 of a 7-book saga. And while, as Jordan mentioned, being told to push through can be frustrating (believe me, I know exactly how it feels to hear that statement), I (personally) found it to be absolutely worth it with Second Apocalypse. Once again, thank you both for doing this. It's always great to hear people discuss Bakker's books.
Thanks so much, Slay! Yeah, man, Second Apocalypse fans are super chill. I hear you on the build-up to Aspect Emperor. I'm thinking I'll get to that series starting in March. I'm so looking forward to it! I'm also hoping to get you hooked on some other books, too, but you've probably read them all, haha! Cheers!
Great conversation guys! I’m excited to read more of the trilogy. I think you both brought up a lot of good points about it. I find Bakker a fascinating author and I love that he expects his readers to be as adult/mature as he is and keep up with a lot of the heavy or complex things he’s covering. I doubt this will be a top ten series for me, but I haven’t read anything quite like it so far.
I quite agree. There's really no one else out there who does what Bakker can do or who writes like Bakker. :) I'll get in touch soon regarding the livestream.
I like it that Bakker doesn't do traditional character arcs. So I was mostly positive on TTT ending. But I do agree with Mike on Conphas being wasted as a character after the first book.
Nice hearing you two talk about this trilogy! The Thousandfold Thought was also my least favorite of the three, but I felt more positive knowing there was more to come in the Second Apocalypse (I understand that not reassuring you, Jordan!). I have different views regarding iSamwise's question, and admittedly some of that is influenced by an interview I watched with Bakker and what I read in Aspect-Emperor. I validate anyone who feels this is too graphic and disturbing, and I don't widely recommend the series for that reason. I dislike the term "grimdark" as a genre term because there's too wide a spectrum for it to be a meaningful definition.
Hey Johanna, thanks for watching! Yeah, I wasn't as rough on TTT as Mike, but I guess my unpopular opinion is that I felt it was a bit better than Warrior Prophet. As to your latter point, I think there's definitely a distinction to be drawn between not "widely recommend[ing] the series," on the one hand, which is perfectly understandable, and trashing the series as well as the author relentlessly in videos and on forums and then shamelessly applying the qualities of his most rapacious characters to Bakker himself while accusing him of bad faith and demanding that he be blacklisted (I've seen a great deal of this behavior and I find it to be chilling). People who've experienced trauma understandably won't be able to handle this book well and they have every right not to read it. That said, I stand by my observation that much of the outrage of Bakker is incredibly selective. As an English teacher especially, who just spent a month dealing with conservative Catholic parents who wanted to remove Paradise Lost from the curriculum, and who regularly deals with parents on the other side of the aisle who want Huck Finn dropped from the curriculum and who use painting tape to censor their children's nightly reading homework, I'm passionate in my defense of often reviled and persecuted authors, like Salman Rushdie, the Marquis de Sade, Maya Angelou, and D.H. Lawrence, and about maintaining a culture of tolerance, and even reverence, for authors who "show the pores in the face of life," as Bradbury put it in Fahrenheit. I also believe that the abuse of therapeutic language, and of safetyism (as Jonathan Haidt calls it) has contributed to this problem, the problem of believing that authors we disagree with are a threat to our literal safety and well being. Anyway, almost none of this discourse applies to you, Johanna. You read courageously and thoughtfully examine these great works I revere. Thanks as always for your insights and feedback! :)
@@iWizard Thank you for unpacking your perspective about this as it relates to the curriculum you teach! I appreciate your work to push back against all those barriers. I agree about the problem of misunderstanding graphic material and wrongly accusing Bakker of glorifying violence in the process. As he has said, "Depiction does not equal endorsement." I don't think his aim was to elicit a voyeuristic, excited response to these descriptions, nor did he want a clinical, detached reader perspective. I believe he intended that content to disturb and provoke readers, but that emotion is not an endpoint. He wanted readers to react so that they could then interrogate misogyny as a norm in fantasy and real life. This makes me think of Morrison's frustration with readers stopping at pity when reading The Bluest Eye, either misunderstanding or shrugging off deeper messages. Some readers may need to explore challenging themes more introspectively than others. Sexual violence and misogyny are all too common and normalized in much of our world. Some readers are all too aware of this, while other readers would benefit from examining these issues with more empathy and concern. I appreciate you taking the time to discuss this with me, Jordan!
@Johanna_reads Well said, Johanna. At the end of the day, the sense I get (not only from your comments here but from those in some of your videos) is that we would not fully see eye to eye on these issues, though I suspect there would be a good deal of overlap and agreement. The perspective that most fully and robustly matches my own on these matters is that of Jonathan Haidt, in his book The Coddling of the American Mind. This was a bestseller and a NYT Best Book of the Year selection. It’d be fun to chat about it sometime with you if you ever get a chance to read it.
We aren't mad when people dislike it because we always kind of assume everyone will bounce off of it lol. Seriously though it's pretty obvious that it's a quintessential "not for everyone" series so we just like when people try it.
@iWizard Yes. I enjoyed it more. It gets more dense, philosophical, and weird in the last 2 books, but The Judging Eye is one of my favorites. Also Kellhus is less of an mc and you see him through the eyes of other characters.
My list of note’s & references (2/2) “Rage Goddess!”: The Opening of the Iliad The Sagas: Mix of the Iliad, the Norse Sagas, the Bhagavad-Gita of the Hindu Mahabharata Epic and the Silmarillion The Ancient Shigeki Relief of a defeated Skylvendi: The Reliefs of the defeat of the “Sea Peoples” by Pharaoh Ramesses III from the 12th Century BC Bronze Age Collapse In addition to Paul from “Dune”, and various religious leaders, Kellhus seems also partly inspired by Alexander the Great Nau-Cauyati & Seswatha: Frodo & Sam entering Mordor fused with Achilles of the Iliad and Arthurian Merlin The Ark-of-the-Skies: 10x the measurements of Noah’s Ark: 300(0) Cubits in length, 50(0) Cubits in breadth/width and 30(0) in height/depth The Siege & Conquest of Shimeh: Obviously the Conquest of Jerusalem in the First Crusade, but also the Germans during WW2 (“Blonde Wolves” “clearing” their conquests…) and allied D-Day Landings (with the Conriyan having heavy losses akin to the Americans at Omaha Beach and the Airborne Elements at Utah Beach (and the Scarlet Spires as the Soviets at the Eastern Front), while the Ainoni & Thunyeri are virtually unopposed akin to the (relatively) low losses of the British & other Allied Forces at Sword & Gold Beach), and the US during both the Vietnam War (Scarlet “Magic Fire” against Chorae “Snipers”, saffron-cloaked monks and hidden underground warriors) and the (then ongoing) Iraq War (setting combined with a “multi-national coalition” with overwhelming “firepower” and “rapid” conquest surprising the native opposition, plus hidden geopolitical reasons for a war with religious imagery?), as well as a reversed seige of Minas Tirith (white walls, mastodons attacking from OUT OF the City, wizards fighting and (first) the Ce Tydonni Knights & (secondly) Saubon’s relief forces akin to the Rohirrim) The Nonman Mansion at Kyudea: Indian design, with water works and ritual bathing as well as “suggestive” art? The Ciphrang Demons: The Balrogs, the Demons of Conan the Cimmerian, as well as reversed role of Gods and Men in the Iliad (& possibly the demons in the Manga “Berserk”) Fight a river: Achilles kills the River God Scamander in the Iliad Moënghus: “What visions?” So much for “Mr. Determinist”, Part Deux! 😄 “And my half-brother?”: Oh, the Soap Opera/Telenovela Drama! 😆 The Nansur “Spear in the Back” of the Men of the Tusk: Accusations of the Byzantines by the Crusaders, as well Hagan slaying the Germanic Hero Siegfried in the Nibelungenlied Epic Poem and the German “Dagger in the Back” Myth that the German Army lost WW1 not due to their own mistakes, but by a betrayal by the Socialists and the Jews… Achamian’s renunciations: Yeah, he is very much a John le Carre Spy Protagonist, indeed! 😅
Man, I wish I had this list of references and notes before I made the episode, haha! I would have brought some of this up. Love it. I'll have to add this to MY notes. Cheers! :)
Athenian was definitely my favorite character,and had the best arc.Seeing this man who was despised and ridiculed come into his full power and realizing he's a total badass was great.
Great chat fellas. Can't believe you didn't talk about Achamian's mic drop on Kellhus at the end, considering both of you named him your favorite character. This was personally my least favorite of the three because the whole sequence cutting between Shimeh and Kellhus with his father just didn't work for me. It felt very disjointed compared to all that came before (ha). I will probably read all of Aspect Emperor this year.
I got the first book. I was sold by Mike saying the worldbuilding and lore was so good. Hoping to try it soon. I have a passing interest in philosophy, and I eventually want to read some, but I haven't read any before. Do you think this book could still hit for me?
I do think this book could still hit for you. I don't necessarily think a philosophy background is necessary. This is the kind of book you can enjoy at different levels. Even if the philosophy goes over your head, the story, the prose, the characters, and the worldbuilding are good enough to entertain really anyone who enjoys grimdark and gritty fantasy. That said, if you're looking for a guide to the philosophy of the first book, check out my video on The Darkness That Comes Before. I spend the final 20 minutes of that video basically explaining the big philosophical ideas of the book. :) Thanks for watching!
(Note to say I am so unqualified in what I am discussing) - also just finished the trilogy Also just finished the trilogy and I find it so curious how much gnostic ideas seem to be in this series? From a seeming rejection of morality but a concept of basal and enlightened, to even the Dunyain primary goal being to achieve the "absolute", which sounds so much like how Gnostics believed reaching enlightenment would bring about "salvation" While reading the trilogy I also have been questioning how I can abide by a character such as Cnauir, and I feel it really comes down to how Bakker has successfully brought about an amorale world, there also is the fact of Cnauir seemingly being a counter revolutionary force to the "logos", which is explored with his decent into madness, and as humans I think its just natural to revolt against such a dogmatic school of thought that strips away much of what brings meaning to our existence. The exploration of madness is fascinating in and of itself with Khellus who kind of veers into orthodox ideas of God existing in subjectivity within all our minds, this kind of is shown in how Khellus thinks of the world moving around him while he himself is unmoved. I am SUPER unqualified to speak on this, and if you had any input into the idea I'd love to hear it in Khelus - Magic and Hegel's ideas? "But for the few who glimpse many angles, sorcerry must reek of incompleteness......where the God's voice speaks to the totality of angles, the few are contrained by the murk and imperfection of their recollections, the can conjure facades only" It then goes into how the "mark" sorcerers see is this divide between the god's true voice and their own, how the world they see or the world in which they actualize through magic is an outside unknowable one - kind of echoing Cnauir's skylvendi view of the world being false, with the stars being holes in that. For sorcerrors the stars are the mark in which they see. Khellus in this book seemingly has bridged that gap and has become godlike? Where he is able to actualise halos to form about him, for him to glow and for people to see this. There then is a lot of discussion about ideas of our souls, and Khellus getting into ideas of negation of negation. I've just started reading on it and honestly have no idea what I am saying lol, but the ideas are very prevelant and there. I’ve been rambling a lot but I will quickly say the same way in which sex/love/violence are depicted is so fascinating to me. Ideas of the dual sided coin where our other represents another face in which to see ourselves. For example how akka always questions how esmenet would be with (a self-deprecating) old man like him. Or cnauir and his use of serwe to both self flagellate and to reject his sexuality. Even sex scenes very much feel like an “exchange”? I do have a LOT of thoughts on the inchoroi and their perverse depiction of love/sex/passion as I find it curious how we aknowledge the rape that occurs to esmenet by the consult where they use phermones. Yet there is not nearly the same reaction to khelus employing the logos to seduce a mourning esmi into becoming a child bearer for his genetics??? As sex/passion/hunger are basal animalistic (not saying they are bad) characteristics, it does seem Bakker uses these scenes to truly break down our strongest most passionate emotions and shows them to us in a perverse light. Such as where the sperm from the consult is black? Just curious as to how he is going to follow up on this. Character wise esmi is traggic in her acknowledged lack of agency no matter what conditioned ground she stands on be it inrithi or now the thousandfold thought. Her body, her image, her hungers are continuously not hers. And she accepts that.
Honestly after finishing the series the first trilogy feels more like a big prologue, that’s how good aspect emperor is. Literally every aspect of the story improves especially the characters. I will also say anyone who finds the first series dark get ready because Bakker is about to take you on the most scarring literary journey of your life 🤣 Remember no weepers of the slog of slogs guys. Praise the Meat 🍖 Truth shines ☀️
My list of note’s & references (1/2) Esmenet: Empress Theodora, low class actress wife of Byzantine Emperor Justinian (and a bit of Simone de Beauvoir?) Cnaiür chasing the (Skin Spy) Serwe: Riffing on Conan chasing the Ice Giants Daughter! Man, Poor Zin… The Book of Traders: The Latter Prophet in exile, hidden from his enemies by merchent, akin to the Muslim Prophet Muhammed (a former Merchant)’s exile to Medína The Middle Lands fought over by the Northern Kings of Shigek and the Southern of Old Nilnamesh: Reversed of the Levant/Holy Land being fought over by the Pharaohs of Egypt (from the Bronze Age to the Hellenistic Ptolemaic Dynasty of Antiquity) and the Hittites of Anatolia/Babylonians & Assyrians of Mesopotamia/the Seleucid Greeks of Syria Gedea: Judea + Ged (Main Character of Ursula K Le Guin’s “Earthsea”)? Plains of Heshor: Hastur, the King in Yellow in the Lovecraftian Cthulhu Mythos? Xerash: Sodom & Gomorrah? Conphas as the “Lion”: The Lion of Judah in the Old Testament, used as an image of Jesus in the New Testament, and King Richard Lionheart Threesies, older veteran Nansur Imperial Soldiers: The Veterans of the Roman Republican Army, the Triariaii Conphas: Patrick Bateman from “American Psycho”, looking at his own mirror reflection during, eh, “coupling”! 😅 The Men of the Tusk vs the Nansur: The 4th Crusade Cnaiur vs Conphas: Strong Conan vs nobility vibes The Herotic Way: Pun on «Heroic» and King Herod, who built several monuments as King of Judea Athjeari’s Pilgrimage and the Kian destruction of the Shine at Musela: Contrast to Tancred( later Prince of Galilee)’s capture of Bethlehem and the Church of Nativity and the Fatimid Governor of Jerusalem, Iftikhar al-Dawla’s poisoning of wells and forced expulsion of local Christians Gerotha: As in a “Garrot”, the strangulation execution device?
Whoa, too many spoilers in the non-spoilers section. Gonna save this one for much later. I got the original paperback release way long ago when I was way too immature to be reading something like this. It was highly recommended somehow long before booktube, lol.
Excellent chat. As referenced, Bakker kind of loses his way when he stops telling the story and overtly starts philosphizing. I also dont believe he had an editor for Aspect Emperor. Kellhus is a fascinating character. I just imagined Paul, or perhaps Leto II leading the Second Crudase. (Dune references even from the later books keep popping up). His outward actions seem noble, but his motivations, as Akka and Cnaiur figure out, are suspect. There is a lot more overt LotR in the next two books. Bakker also said he had the Bible and Blood Meridian, which I found underwhelming, on his nigjtstand while writing. The former is obvious just looking at the map names and the Inri. The latter is more later. I had to read them all straight through. Once I was in, I dont know if I would have come back later. It was really hard to find a book to read after as Mike said, you just keep thinking about it. I was quite shocked when Johanna's book of the year was White Luck Warrior.
Haha! I think I did a good job explaining why spoiler-free in my Top 10 video, and spoiler-filled in the discussion with Philip. If you don't mind sharing, why are you so shocked, Eric?
@Johanna_reads You seem too happy to like a book about a ..... non-traditional family unit. Maybe the elvish assassin is leaking through from the outside. And considering all the rest you read. It did get me thinking in the broader sense why the final book in a series is rarely the favorite.
Enjoyed the chat, my brother. Thanks for inviting me on!
Thanks as always for coming on, dude! I'll send you the link for my 3k livestream and you can stop in whenever you want and for however long you want. Happy New Year. I think this is going to be a big year for your channel. :)
The best Drusas Achamian scene was at the end when he walked out to face down the army of Ikuri Conphas. What did Esmi say from her POV. "There he went not as the teacher or the fool but as what he truly is; Drusas Achamian a mandate schoolman and he began to sing and the world burned." paraphrase
Truly an epic Mic-drop! Such a great moment for my favorite character. I'm surprised Kellhus let him walk away. I find myself wondering what will happen to Achamian in Aspect Emperor.
Jordan, congrats on hitting 3K!!! You absolutely deserve it, and I can’t wait to see your channel continue to grow.
I feel truly honored by all your shoutouts-you’re the nice ones here! It's just like what Brent said, Second Apocalypse fans are really cool with people disliking the series because we know how polarizing it can be with all its triggering elements. That being said, I really agree with what your sentiments on the sensitive topic's nature of selective outrage.
Regarding comparisons between the series and The Hobbit/LOTR, that’s most evident in The Judging Eye-not so much in the rest of the series.
As for The Thousandfold Thought, there’s very minimal resolution for most of the main characters, which ties into what Mike pointed out: people often mistakenly view TTT as the conclusion of PON rather than Book 3 of a 7-book saga. And while, as Jordan mentioned, being told to push through can be frustrating (believe me, I know exactly how it feels to hear that statement), I (personally) found it to be absolutely worth it with Second Apocalypse.
Once again, thank you both for doing this. It's always great to hear people discuss Bakker's books.
Thanks again for holding my hand! You are my Second Apocalypse rock, amigo.
@ 🥰🙌🥰
Thanks so much, Slay! Yeah, man, Second Apocalypse fans are super chill. I hear you on the build-up to Aspect Emperor. I'm thinking I'll get to that series starting in March. I'm so looking forward to it! I'm also hoping to get you hooked on some other books, too, but you've probably read them all, haha! Cheers!
Great conversation guys! I’m excited to read more of the trilogy. I think you both brought up a lot of good points about it. I find Bakker a fascinating author and I love that he expects his readers to be as adult/mature as he is and keep up with a lot of the heavy or complex things he’s covering. I doubt this will be a top ten series for me, but I haven’t read anything quite like it so far.
I quite agree. There's really no one else out there who does what Bakker can do or who writes like Bakker. :) I'll get in touch soon regarding the livestream.
I like it that Bakker doesn't do traditional character arcs. So I was mostly positive on TTT ending. But I do agree with Mike on Conphas being wasted as a character after the first book.
Yes, I totally agree about Conphas. Not sure how I feel about his character arcs, haha. Thanks for watching! :)
Nice hearing you two talk about this trilogy! The Thousandfold Thought was also my least favorite of the three, but I felt more positive knowing there was more to come in the Second Apocalypse (I understand that not reassuring you, Jordan!). I have different views regarding iSamwise's question, and admittedly some of that is influenced by an interview I watched with Bakker and what I read in Aspect-Emperor. I validate anyone who feels this is too graphic and disturbing, and I don't widely recommend the series for that reason. I dislike the term "grimdark" as a genre term because there's too wide a spectrum for it to be a meaningful definition.
Hey Johanna, thanks for watching! Yeah, I wasn't as rough on TTT as Mike, but I guess my unpopular opinion is that I felt it was a bit better than Warrior Prophet. As to your latter point, I think there's definitely a distinction to be drawn between not "widely recommend[ing] the series," on the one hand, which is perfectly understandable, and trashing the series as well as the author relentlessly in videos and on forums and then shamelessly applying the qualities of his most rapacious characters to Bakker himself while accusing him of bad faith and demanding that he be blacklisted (I've seen a great deal of this behavior and I find it to be chilling). People who've experienced trauma understandably won't be able to handle this book well and they have every right not to read it. That said, I stand by my observation that much of the outrage of Bakker is incredibly selective.
As an English teacher especially, who just spent a month dealing with conservative Catholic parents who wanted to remove Paradise Lost from the curriculum, and who regularly deals with parents on the other side of the aisle who want Huck Finn dropped from the curriculum and who use painting tape to censor their children's nightly reading homework, I'm passionate in my defense of often reviled and persecuted authors, like Salman Rushdie, the Marquis de Sade, Maya Angelou, and D.H. Lawrence, and about maintaining a culture of tolerance, and even reverence, for authors who "show the pores in the face of life," as Bradbury put it in Fahrenheit. I also believe that the abuse of therapeutic language, and of safetyism (as Jonathan Haidt calls it) has contributed to this problem, the problem of believing that authors we disagree with are a threat to our literal safety and well being.
Anyway, almost none of this discourse applies to you, Johanna. You read courageously and thoughtfully examine these great works I revere. Thanks as always for your insights and feedback! :)
@@iWizard Thank you for unpacking your perspective about this as it relates to the curriculum you teach! I appreciate your work to push back against all those barriers.
I agree about the problem of misunderstanding graphic material and wrongly accusing Bakker of glorifying violence in the process. As he has said, "Depiction does not equal endorsement." I don't think his aim was to elicit a voyeuristic, excited response to these descriptions, nor did he want a clinical, detached reader perspective. I believe he intended that content to disturb and provoke readers, but that emotion is not an endpoint. He wanted readers to react so that they could then interrogate misogyny as a norm in fantasy and real life. This makes me think of Morrison's frustration with readers stopping at pity when reading The Bluest Eye, either misunderstanding or shrugging off deeper messages.
Some readers may need to explore challenging themes more introspectively than others. Sexual violence and misogyny are all too common and normalized in much of our world. Some readers are all too aware of this, while other readers would benefit from examining these issues with more empathy and concern.
I appreciate you taking the time to discuss this with me, Jordan!
@Johanna_reads Well said, Johanna. At the end of the day, the sense I get (not only from your comments here but from those in some of your videos) is that we would not fully see eye to eye on these issues, though I suspect there would be a good deal of overlap and agreement. The perspective that most fully and robustly matches my own on these matters is that of Jonathan Haidt, in his book The Coddling of the American Mind. This was a bestseller and a NYT Best Book of the Year selection. It’d be fun to chat about it sometime with you if you ever get a chance to read it.
@ I’ll have to check that book out. Thanks!
We aren't mad when people dislike it because we always kind of assume everyone will bounce off of it lol. Seriously though it's pretty obvious that it's a quintessential "not for everyone" series so we just like when people try it.
Makes sense, haha! Have you read Aspect Emperor? Knowing you, I'm sure you have. If so, what did you think? Was it worth the build up?
@iWizard Yes. I enjoyed it more. It gets more dense, philosophical, and weird in the last 2 books, but The Judging Eye is one of my favorites. Also Kellhus is less of an mc and you see him through the eyes of other characters.
I love the ending when Kellus basically says to Achamanian “next time we meet you shall kneel!”
Something like that haha
Yes, a great ending. Gangster mic drop moment and a little bit of rare grace from Kellhus.
My list of note’s & references (2/2)
“Rage Goddess!”: The Opening of the Iliad
The Sagas: Mix of the Iliad, the Norse Sagas, the Bhagavad-Gita of the Hindu Mahabharata Epic and the Silmarillion
The Ancient Shigeki Relief of a defeated Skylvendi: The Reliefs of the defeat of the “Sea Peoples” by Pharaoh Ramesses III from the 12th Century BC Bronze Age Collapse
In addition to Paul from “Dune”, and various religious leaders, Kellhus seems also partly inspired by Alexander the Great
Nau-Cauyati & Seswatha: Frodo & Sam entering Mordor fused with Achilles of the Iliad and Arthurian Merlin
The Ark-of-the-Skies: 10x the measurements of Noah’s Ark: 300(0) Cubits in length, 50(0) Cubits in breadth/width and 30(0) in height/depth
The Siege & Conquest of Shimeh: Obviously the Conquest of Jerusalem in the First Crusade, but also the Germans during WW2 (“Blonde Wolves” “clearing” their conquests…) and allied D-Day Landings (with the Conriyan having heavy losses akin to the Americans at Omaha Beach and the Airborne Elements at Utah Beach (and the Scarlet Spires as the Soviets at the Eastern Front), while the Ainoni & Thunyeri are virtually unopposed akin to the (relatively) low losses of the British & other Allied Forces at Sword & Gold Beach), and the US during both the Vietnam War (Scarlet “Magic Fire” against Chorae “Snipers”, saffron-cloaked monks and hidden underground warriors) and the (then ongoing) Iraq War (setting combined with a “multi-national coalition” with overwhelming “firepower” and “rapid” conquest surprising the native opposition, plus hidden geopolitical reasons for a war with religious imagery?), as well as a reversed seige of Minas Tirith (white walls, mastodons attacking from OUT OF the City, wizards fighting and (first) the Ce Tydonni Knights & (secondly) Saubon’s relief forces akin to the Rohirrim)
The Nonman Mansion at Kyudea: Indian design, with water works and ritual bathing as well as “suggestive” art?
The Ciphrang Demons: The Balrogs, the Demons of Conan the Cimmerian, as well as reversed role of Gods and Men in the Iliad (& possibly the demons in the Manga “Berserk”)
Fight a river: Achilles kills the River God Scamander in the Iliad
Moënghus: “What visions?” So much for “Mr. Determinist”, Part Deux! 😄
“And my half-brother?”: Oh, the Soap Opera/Telenovela Drama! 😆
The Nansur “Spear in the Back” of the Men of the Tusk: Accusations of the Byzantines by the Crusaders, as well Hagan slaying the Germanic Hero Siegfried in the Nibelungenlied Epic Poem and the German “Dagger in the Back” Myth that the German Army lost WW1 not due to their own mistakes, but by a betrayal by the Socialists and the Jews…
Achamian’s renunciations: Yeah, he is very much a John le Carre Spy Protagonist, indeed! 😅
Man, I wish I had this list of references and notes before I made the episode, haha! I would have brought some of this up. Love it. I'll have to add this to MY notes. Cheers! :)
Athenian was definitely my favorite character,and had the best arc.Seeing this man who was despised and ridiculed come into his full power and realizing he's a total badass was great.
Achamian
I'm right there with you. Thanks for watching!
Great chat fellas. Can't believe you didn't talk about Achamian's mic drop on Kellhus at the end, considering both of you named him your favorite character. This was personally my least favorite of the three because the whole sequence cutting between Shimeh and Kellhus with his father just didn't work for me. It felt very disjointed compared to all that came before (ha). I will probably read all of Aspect Emperor this year.
I mentioned it! I just may not have made it clear by saying "Achamian busted in and said ADIOS, SENOR!"
Yes, that was an epic moment. I think Mike did bring that up, though. Thanks for watching, buddy! :) And thanks for the questions, btw.
I got the first book. I was sold by Mike saying the worldbuilding and lore was so good. Hoping to try it soon.
I have a passing interest in philosophy, and I eventually want to read some, but I haven't read any before. Do you think this book could still hit for me?
I do think this book could still hit for you. I don't necessarily think a philosophy background is necessary. This is the kind of book you can enjoy at different levels. Even if the philosophy goes over your head, the story, the prose, the characters, and the worldbuilding are good enough to entertain really anyone who enjoys grimdark and gritty fantasy. That said, if you're looking for a guide to the philosophy of the first book, check out my video on The Darkness That Comes Before. I spend the final 20 minutes of that video basically explaining the big philosophical ideas of the book. :) Thanks for watching!
@iWizard thanks chief!
Sometimes I pick celebrities to visualize characters in books, based on the novel's description. To me, Achamian is Justin Vernon. 😂
Yes, the version of Justin Vernon from For Emma, Forever Ago. Great call!
@iWizard I'm thinking the more modern and more portly Justin haha
(Note to say I am so unqualified in what I am discussing) - also just finished the trilogy
Also just finished the trilogy and I find it so curious how much gnostic ideas seem to be in this series? From a seeming rejection of morality but a concept of basal and enlightened, to even the Dunyain primary goal being to achieve the "absolute", which sounds so much like how Gnostics believed reaching enlightenment would bring about "salvation"
While reading the trilogy I also have been questioning how I can abide by a character such as Cnauir, and I feel it really comes down to how Bakker has successfully brought about an amorale world, there also is the fact of Cnauir seemingly being a counter revolutionary force to the "logos", which is explored with his decent into madness, and as humans I think its just natural to revolt against such a dogmatic school of thought that strips away much of what brings meaning to our existence.
The exploration of madness is fascinating in and of itself with Khellus who kind of veers into orthodox ideas of God existing in subjectivity within all our minds, this kind of is shown in how Khellus thinks of the world moving around him while he himself is unmoved. I am SUPER unqualified to speak on this, and if you had any input into the idea I'd love to hear it in Khelus - Magic and Hegel's ideas?
"But for the few who glimpse many angles, sorcerry must reek of incompleteness......where the God's voice speaks to the totality of angles, the few are contrained by the murk and imperfection of their recollections, the can conjure facades only"
It then goes into how the "mark" sorcerers see is this divide between the god's true voice and their own, how the world they see or the world in which they actualize through magic is an outside unknowable one - kind of echoing Cnauir's skylvendi view of the world being false, with the stars being holes in that. For sorcerrors the stars are the mark in which they see.
Khellus in this book seemingly has bridged that gap and has become godlike? Where he is able to actualise halos to form about him, for him to glow and for people to see this.
There then is a lot of discussion about ideas of our souls, and Khellus getting into ideas of negation of negation.
I've just started reading on it and honestly have no idea what I am saying lol, but the ideas are very prevelant and there.
I’ve been rambling a lot but I will quickly say the same way in which sex/love/violence are depicted is so fascinating to me. Ideas of the dual sided coin where our other represents another face in which to see ourselves. For example how akka always questions how esmenet would be with (a self-deprecating) old man like him. Or cnauir and his use of serwe to both self flagellate and to reject his sexuality. Even sex scenes very much feel like an “exchange”?
I do have a LOT of thoughts on the inchoroi and their perverse depiction of love/sex/passion as I find it curious how we aknowledge the rape that occurs to esmenet by the consult where they use phermones. Yet there is not nearly the same reaction to khelus employing the logos to seduce a mourning esmi into becoming a child bearer for his genetics???
As sex/passion/hunger are basal animalistic (not saying they are bad) characteristics, it does seem Bakker uses these scenes to truly break down our strongest most passionate emotions and shows them to us in a perverse light. Such as where the sperm from the consult is black? Just curious as to how he is going to follow up on this.
Character wise esmi is traggic in her acknowledged lack of agency no matter what conditioned ground she stands on be it inrithi or now the thousandfold thought. Her body, her image, her hungers are continuously not hers. And she accepts that.
Honestly after finishing the series the first trilogy feels more like a big prologue, that’s how good aspect emperor is. Literally every aspect of the story improves especially the characters.
I will also say anyone who finds the first series dark get ready because Bakker is about to take you on the most scarring literary journey of your life 🤣
Remember no weepers of the slog of slogs guys. Praise the Meat 🍖 Truth shines ☀️
I'm pretty excited about continuing the series based on what everyone's been telling me. Thanks for watching, and cheers! :)
My list of note’s & references (1/2)
Esmenet: Empress Theodora, low class actress wife of Byzantine Emperor Justinian (and a bit of Simone de Beauvoir?)
Cnaiür chasing the (Skin Spy) Serwe: Riffing on Conan chasing the Ice Giants Daughter!
Man, Poor Zin…
The Book of Traders: The Latter Prophet in exile, hidden from his enemies by merchent, akin to the Muslim Prophet Muhammed (a former Merchant)’s exile to Medína
The Middle Lands fought over by the Northern Kings of Shigek and the Southern of Old Nilnamesh: Reversed of the Levant/Holy Land being fought over by the Pharaohs of Egypt (from the Bronze Age to the Hellenistic Ptolemaic Dynasty of Antiquity) and the Hittites of Anatolia/Babylonians & Assyrians of Mesopotamia/the Seleucid Greeks of Syria
Gedea: Judea + Ged (Main Character of Ursula K Le Guin’s “Earthsea”)?
Plains of Heshor: Hastur, the King in Yellow in the Lovecraftian Cthulhu Mythos?
Xerash: Sodom & Gomorrah?
Conphas as the “Lion”: The Lion of Judah in the Old Testament, used as an image of Jesus in the New Testament, and King Richard Lionheart
Threesies, older veteran Nansur Imperial Soldiers: The Veterans of the Roman Republican Army, the Triariaii
Conphas: Patrick Bateman from “American Psycho”, looking at his own mirror reflection during, eh, “coupling”! 😅
The Men of the Tusk vs the Nansur: The 4th Crusade
Cnaiur vs Conphas: Strong Conan vs nobility vibes
The Herotic Way: Pun on «Heroic» and King Herod, who built several monuments as King of Judea
Athjeari’s Pilgrimage and the Kian destruction of the Shine at Musela: Contrast to Tancred( later Prince of Galilee)’s capture of Bethlehem and the Church of Nativity and the Fatimid Governor of Jerusalem, Iftikhar al-Dawla’s poisoning of wells and forced expulsion of local Christians
Gerotha: As in a “Garrot”, the strangulation execution device?
Love that Conphas / Patrick Bateman reference!
Whoa, too many spoilers in the non-spoilers section. Gonna save this one for much later. I got the original paperback release way long ago when I was way too immature to be reading something like this. It was highly recommended somehow long before booktube, lol.
Sorry for that, haha! I have such a hard time with the spoiler thing. :) Hope the video comes in handy one day. :)
Excellent chat.
As referenced, Bakker kind of loses his way when he stops telling the story and overtly starts philosphizing. I also dont believe he had an editor for Aspect Emperor.
Kellhus is a fascinating character. I just imagined Paul, or perhaps Leto II leading the Second Crudase. (Dune references even from the later books keep popping up). His outward actions seem noble, but his motivations, as Akka and Cnaiur figure out, are suspect.
There is a lot more overt LotR in the next two books.
Bakker also said he had the Bible and Blood Meridian, which I found underwhelming, on his nigjtstand while writing. The former is obvious just looking at the map names and the Inri. The latter is more later.
I had to read them all straight through. Once I was in, I dont know if I would have come back later. It was really hard to find a book to read after as Mike said, you just keep thinking about it.
I was quite shocked when Johanna's book of the year was White Luck Warrior.
Haha! I think I did a good job explaining why spoiler-free in my Top 10 video, and spoiler-filled in the discussion with Philip. If you don't mind sharing, why are you so shocked, Eric?
@Johanna_reads You seem too happy to like a book about a ..... non-traditional family unit. Maybe the elvish assassin is leaking through from the outside. And considering all the rest you read.
It did get me thinking in the broader sense why the final book in a series is rarely the favorite.
Thanks for watching, Eric!